Which Canadian Carrier Would You Wanna Fly For?

[Mogas]

We all know the top dogs AC and WJ. Then there's Cargojet, Kelowna Flight, Porter, Cdn North, First Air, etc

Who would you wanna fly for and why?

[Canadian Beech]

Suck pretty hard at Jazz right now:mad:

[Mogas]

whats goin on in jazz? new seneca graduates flying 705 machines?

[rwethereyet]

Fly in Canada...are you kidding!?!?:= Been there,done that,got the t-shirt....not to be repeated....as a previous post stated...go east of 30W....and good luck.
RWTY:}

[nolimitholdem]

Agreed wholeheartedly.
NONE OF THEM!
I love Canada, it's my home and I will return when I retire, money safely stashed offshore. Until then it's a beautiful place to visit...just not somewhere to make a living that is acceptable to me flying airplanes.

"Top dogs?!" In their own minds maybe.

[Azure]

I love Canada, it's my home and I will return when I retire, money safely stashed offshore.

Ya, we really want you back so you can partake of our medical system even though you have contributed very little. :rolleyes:

[nolimitholdem]

Thanks, but with my Canadian passport I really won't feel the need for your permission.
Coupla things:
The Canadian medical system is a joke. More people die on the waiting lists of our vaunted "system"...you should maybe ask their surviving family members what they think of Canada's medical system before trying to act like it's wonderful. It isn't a system in trouble...it's a system that the wheels have fallen right off. My own experiences combined with the horror stories I have heard from two closest friends, one a GP in Ontario and the other an ER physio in BC, make me thankful I am no longer dependent on a system that can no longer guarantee the admittedly high ideals it started out with. As the population ages it will only continue to get worse.
Secondly...YOU are more of a burden on the health care system than I am, presently. Yes, I pay no Canadian tax - I also receive no health care from the Canadian system. Since the system operates at a loss - YOU are more of a liability - at least right now I don't cost the system anything! When I return, I will be paying the same premiums and taxes as everyone else, and will receive the same level of "care" (see paragragh above) as everyone else. No benefit beyond what you have now. So get over yourself.
Frankly, you sound like the typical Canadian whiner who doesn't want to move outside the country, but has to take shots at those who actually took a chance and had it pay off...enjoy your "contributing" to the federal government!

[yoohoo748]

If the government were to be more responsible with our tax dollars... then I would have no problem paying canadian taxes.... but with all the special interest groups and money spent on useless study after useless study and such, there is hardly a way to keep any of your hard earned dollars in canada. Those that are able to move away and keep some of the hard earned dollars... do. The others... well, I admire your dedication to a country that robs and steals from it's citizens. Will I retire in canada? perhaps. Maybe have a summer home there, and winter south?? more likely.

[sec 3]

My sentiments exactly nolimit and yoohoo. I remember waiting 3-6hrs in the emerg in Montreal. Doctors being forced to work overtime because of shortage and an over-demand for medical services. Where I am now, half way around the world, I wait for 15 minutes in the emerg, then right to the specialist.By the way, nobody mentioned Transat:confused: Excellent company to work for:ok:

[bunkhog]

Nolimitholdem,

Not related to Lord Black of Up- the- Creek are you?

Snotty Canadian expat attitude. We pay here, but most time that I exit the Customs hall from almost anywhere I return from, South America, Europe of Asia, I am glad to be back.

Just spent a week in Rome...2 bucks a litre for gas, 4 bucks for a Coke, $440K for a 800 sq foot apartment...about the same prices as my 3600 sq foot house with pool in Oakville! Yeah, we pay some tax here, and yeah, I'd like to pay less....but we have it pretttty good here in Canada compared to a good portion of the planet.

I believe you are mislead about who is "a liabilty" to our health care system. I'm thinkin' it's older folks....whether they made their wealth off-shore or not. But if you think current redsidents are the draw on the system, the ones paying the big tax bucks, I think you may need some schooling in eco and ergo-nomics.

So, fill your boots with off-shore cash... and retire on an island somewhere. It sounds like it would be better for all of us.

BH

[aileron]

BH,
er maybe if the Canadian dollar wasnt such a weak currency you wouldnt be paying so much for things overseas. remember we who work overseas get paid in the local currency! frankly when I convert my salary into Can$ it makes the rates of pay in Canada embarrassing......
property prices may be high overseas.....but its an investment that keeps growing.
i dont care how cheap or supersized a Tim Hortons coffee or McDonalds burger is. you wouldnt find me at either place...:cool: and I cant think of a nicer place than Rome to have a real coffee. No double doubles, red necks, stretchy jogging pants (can you say obese), hunting jackets or dirty baseball caps...
its not the old that will bring the health service to its knees its the fat pigs stuffing themselves everyday with the (cheap?) crap food on the supermarket shelves (fast food joints and buffets).....all i can say is......fill your boots dude!

[polarus]

are you kidding?

... I left Canada 3 years ago because I had no choice.
Go to AC ... come on ... 40 something for 2 years!!! No professional pilot would work for that! It would be great for a min time wonder jock but not for anyone with experience.

The rest of the airlines are not so bad but no money can be made for a real life.:ugh:

Living outside Canada makes you want to come home more and more, but not to a ****ty AC job dealing with their crap. I`ll make my money and retire back home in comfort ... not having to fly to 65 just to pay off all the debts I had to incur.

BTW: Flew home last month and spoke to a "senior" AC crew. They are NOT happy ... ole bobby milton is due to leave AC with 50 million in bonuses!!! FOR What ... THATS the canadian airline way ... no thanks.

[bzh]

in the other end, spending the weekend @ the in law, hat fun in the snow with the kid and nephews, had a few beers going to watch a hockey game tonight and celebrate St Pat in Ottawa, In glad the wife is driving.... enjoy your money and take it to hell... did I mention we're going to the sugar bush tomorrow...

[polarus]

"take your money to hell"

must be a real pleasure to be on the flight deck with you ...


FYI ... half a world away and I did the same thing you did minus the snow and the live NHL game ... BUT did play on ICE ... cheers.

[Azure]

Sorry nolimitholdem if I hurt your feelings, but for crying out loud where did I say our medical system is wonderful??? It sucks! But if everyone thought like you....who would stay here and keep funding what little we have? The first Nation people :}
It's tax time here in Canada as you well know, and your comment about stashing offshore just hit a wrong nerve. Btw, I am NOT a pilot so going overseas is not an option for me.
What I read in your post is "Hey, look at me, I don't pay high taxes and I can hide my money offshore....I'll come home live like a king and laugh at all the poor saps that stayed and got raped by the government."
Don't expect a welcome home party from us saps.

[canadair]

well, since this post is specific to pilots lets focus there,
however, Azure.
It is not only pilots which tend to gravitate overseas, it is many many different people in lots of diverse career paths.
But we need to face reality, and as pilots we have very little to no choices in Canada.
You reach a point in your career where returning is just not an option, the starting WJ or AC salary is so appallingly low, it is not even worth considering, and when you then remove the tax, and additional deductions, it makes a mockery of being a pilot to be honest.
Most of us overseas can make that in 2-3 months, and sit the balance of the year, if thats the wage we would be content with.
Sure Canada is a wonderful place, and I would imagine that most of us in a somber moment tend to think how nice it may be to be back, but then you give your head a shake and realise that there are NO jobs there! none.
I have noticed that Canadian pilots tend to fall into two groups, the people who just cannot see beyond the borders, and those who launch out and are willing to try the rest of the world.
This group finds that there is an amazing amount of jobs available to Canadians, far more that there ever will be in Canada.
Returning for most of us is only an option when we are in a position to not need a job, can return morgage free and with sufficient funds to support the lifestyle you choose.

[Panama Jack]

canadair sums it up very well. In fact, the day I received another citizenship was the day I knew I was able to define what freedom was . . . come hell or high water, I don't HAVE to return to Canada. (and don't worry Azure, I don't use my Canadian passport even though I am entitled to).

I've come to view life and career goals as a triangle. One side of the triangle-- making enough money to maintain an acceptable living standard. The second is living in a place where you are happy. The third is having a work environment which you are happy in.

Many people spend a career trying to find those three aspects to complete the triangle, however, if you ever do, learn to become satisfied with what you have.

For me, returning to Canada would wipe out two or more of those sides of the triangle.

B.T.W., Azure's comments sum up one of the things that is fundamentally wrong with the majority of Canadians. Too politically docile. They will bitch and moan amongst themselves, but in the end, they take it. Before you shoot back, it is good to remember that I have done something, that is, I have given up on the "Canadian dream." I AM the weakest link. Good bye!

[Slapshot]

I like your thoughts on the Triangle Panama...

I spent 4 years overseas flying for an operator in Hong Kong. While it was an adventure and I enjoyed my time there, one of the sides of the Triangle - the side that includes family - started to suffer.

I'm back in Canada, have been for 8 years now, and I see my Triangle back in balance as it were. Once I decided that it was time to come home, it all became easier. Yes it was difficult living on the poverty pay for the first while, but I knew it was temporary... I saw the light at the end of the tunnel...

I've been at WestJet for 8 years now and am happy. Is it perfect? Of course not. What is? Having said that I would not trade our problems for anybody else's.

I am happy. Having fun at work, Happy family, living in a great place. My three sides are good.

WestJet, Air Canada, Air Transat, SkyService, Zoom, they are not for everybody, but then that's why they make chocolate and vanilla right?

Cheers.

[WRC]

Of the Canadian expats I know of (10 of them), 80% were guys who tried and failed interviews at Air Canada and WestJet, to no one's surprise. I think some of the tax points they mention have merit but I hear a tinge of bitterness from those whos rep and history caught up with them. No biggie, if it makes em feel better as they stare at the sand from the compound to diss Canada then go for it. I believe the threads about airlines in Canada. To the normal expats, enjoy your time working overseas, I did.;)

[Left Coaster]

So does that make you better than them? Doubt it... They left because the "Industry" more than likely let them down. Failing an interview at AC or WJ (or getting hired there) doesn't make a pilot better or worse than anyone else. I happen to know many expat pilots (from Canada) who are highly regarded in their area, and I really don't care who passed or failed anyone's interview, it's only an interview...it shows your lack of understanding of how this industry works.. The whole picture is much, much larger! Try looking at the history of Canadian commercial aviation and look hard at what it does to those who work in it. You mention "Normal Expats"... What does that mean? As a former EXPAT yourself, you might want to broaden your horizons...To imply that some pilots run and hide by going overseas after they run out of options at home shows your superiority! :D By what standard do you judge? This expat pilot and his family are very excited that we have a chance to see what the world has to offer, and our kids will see more and have learned more than the average Canadian kid could ever dream of. And I guarantee that those who fly as expats see more crazy sh*t than most Canadian homeboys will ever see in their careers. Not to say that we are not proud Canadians, we hold our country close and are proud to be from where we are. This thread WAS about which airline to work for in Canada. If you GET to choose, then great! If you don't get to choose, have a look at why, (AC still pay less than 35K to start?) don't drop a load on those who leave the country...you most likely don't know why they did! Peace

[canadair]

WRC.
thats certainly an interesting statement you make, that you have divided "Canadian" expats from "normal" expats? are you suggesting that as Canadian expats we are in some way abnormal?
I think your survey group (10) may be a little small to make a qualified conclusion mate.
I can probably list, amongst people I have met, flown with, worked with, had a beer with, and know of, well over 100 Canadian expats, and from this group I have no idea how many may have "failed" an AC or WJ interview, but I can certainly list a great deal of whom were "failed" by their companies.
The very reason they are now expat is because of the demise of Nationair, Canadian, C3, etc.
In other words they were victims of the industry, the Canadian industry.
And guess what, the "normal" expats you mention, are generally victims of the exact same scenario, from whatever country they initially called home.
So, please for those of us you consider abnormal, could you please elaborate on just what makes us so?

[nolimitholdem]

Then there's the the fact I work alongside several former Air Canada pilots, who voluntarily left to work overseas. Blows a large hole in the "rejected Air Canada and WestJet pilots are the expats" myth lol. And I can tell you, I know a few more than ten. heheh if this is "hiding out" it's a pretty deluxe hideout!

Listen, I'm glad to hear people passionately defend Canada and their way of life. If you read my previous post carefully, I did say I LOVE my country! But the aviation industry is pitiful there, and the tax regime? Fuggediboutit. Polarus is correct...I would rather take the $$ from overseas work and retire early in Canada...but how anyone does it is up to them.

Azure, no feelings hurt. When I said money offshore, I meant the money I earn overseas. I don't intend to pay taxes for income I earned while not even living there! But of course when I return I will be paying through the nose again, like everyone else.

And bunkhog, I'm pretty much the other end of the spectrum from the silver spoon set. Simply, I have been afforded an amazing opportunity, professionally and personally, and I ain't gonna apologize for it, which I realize is un-Canadian. A week touristing in Rome led you to believe in Canada's overwhelming superiority? Come on.

Anyway, this is getting a bit silly. I still have many close friends flying in Canada. We each envy each other's advantages, and enjoy our unique benefits. I DO NOT subscribe to the "grass is always greener". I only wanted to point out there's more than Canadian grass out there...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This is quite amusing.

Remember Paul Martin?

Before any Canadian gets to patriotic about paying taxes don't forget good old Paul and where he put his assets.

Canada is just another quazi socialist country bordering on third world as far as government goes.

Best decision I ever made was to fly off shore for my last decade in the flying game.

[aileron]

i left Canada before WJ existed, and at the time AC were laying off pilots (4th year). i havent been 'interviewed' by either company......
after leaving, although i hadnt flown a jet yet, 4 years later i found myself in the left seat of a 757, Ive been with the same company for ten years and now in the left seat of a 767. the 787's start arriving in Feb 2009.
so what does that make me? i would suggest there are plenty of grown up 'Canadian' pilots throughout the world living the dream. why? because Canada's aviation industry just wasnt up to it, is it now? i dont know i left in 1993.
however when i chat with my buddies back 'home' and they talk about.........militant unions, arbitrations about seniority lists, pilots paying for their own type ratings, airlines going bankrupt, pilots working in costco, over long duty days, threat of strike action, wanting to leave AC because they hate it etc etc, i would suggest that for me it was the right decision to leave. im happy, the family's happy.
i like Canada, i have a house there, we visit. when we do visit its with our eyes wide open. i would suggest that having lived in another part of the world it opens your eyes.
dont knock the guys who've been brave enough to take a risk. you might find it wasnt about the money or because they werent good enough to work for what you perceive as a 'good' company
good luck to all!
PS did i mention the beers better over here! :}



sorry to get off topic....... i wouldnt work for any of them

[Azure]

Now that statement I completly understand, and I do have to apologize for my snarkyness but as I said it's tax time and I have a low boiling point these days. New budget out today and I can't help but think that unless we hire a high priced accountant to do some majic, next year will be even worse. :mad:

[Left Coaster]

Pool time! If you think about it, it's ALWAYS tax time! Over here it's not...cmon in the waters fine!

[Flyer34]

Boys...it just comes down to what you want in life. YOU have to decide what lifestyle you want to have. Canada is a great place to fly and we have good companies to work for here, not perfect, but good. We have lots of variety here and you can be as local or as international as you want. The trade off for the quality of life in Canada is that pay dosen't compare to a few other companies out there in the world.

I am a small town guy who wants to experience the world and make as much money as I can doing it. I instructed, flew the bush / arctic, corporate and now charter airline here in Canada. They all have good and bad points to them. Again it depends on what you want. I am at the point where my wife and I want to leave Canada and live somewhere to experience new adventures and cultures. I am happy with the experiences, but now I need to make some money.

Generally the equation works like this:

Canadian Aviation dosen't pay well compared to what is out there in the world but for a Canadian who loves being home it is well worth it.

International Airlines pay top dollar but your not in Kansas anymore Toto. Don't expect things to be like they were in your hometown when you go international. Unhappy wife = unhappy life! something for the married guys out there.

Don't get me wrong, there are great paying jobs here in Canada if your willing to put in the time. On the other hand, you can make top dollar at some international companies, and some don't even tax your salary.

So, really there is something out there for everyone. Just because someone is willing to work in a place they want to live in making less money than for the same flying job in another place dosen't make it bad. Neither does working for more money in another country make it a better place to be.

YOU CHOOSE...Bush, Airline, Corporate, Canada, Middle East, Hong Kong, its your life...Make of it what you will, and try not to judge others for what they decide to do.

[gumbi]

I'm with you on that one Flyer34... To each his own...

BTW, lots of happy people at AT and yes, the start pay is well above 40K for the first two years... I don't think we have much to envy at AC nowadays!


I take my 2600sq.ft. cottage on a wooden acre that I paid 132k over any middle eastern villa, but hey, that's my choice!

[Red Mud]

So the original question was "which carrier would you wanna fly for"? What it degenerated into was a lot of whining about Canadian pilot pay and the deplorable state of the country. Basically, if you want the big bucks go elsewhere but, as for the country, there are a bloody lot of worse places to live in this world. Try answering the question and keep the Canada bashing out of it. Start a new topic if that's your big issue. As for me, after my own fair share of world travel and exposure ... I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

[cedarman]

In my humble opinion Morningstar Airexpress, great company, great pay, lots of time off. But its what you make of it, do you want the cake, the cabin or a combination. I agree happy wife,happy life. That is very true, at least for me:)

[Mogas]

Is it a requirement to speak french to join Transat?

[bzh]

help to speak French only when you have to put up with the hard times ( as for a bit of understanding from the office), other then that they don't give a damn, English is well over the 50 % of pilots, and as of a few characters, most Francos don't care about the language you speak as long as your fun to work with....

That's from my drinking buddy from Transat...

good luck

[Mogas]

So, in all Canadian carriers considered, which is the easiest to get on with?

[rwethereyet]

As I previously said,been there,done that,got the T-shirt with Canadian companies...but no thanks. Expatting has its advantages and disadvantages with respect to the triangle but the big thing is Canadian taxes...or any taxes for that matter. Big waste of money for no services or very poor services rendered!! I agree that its not all about the money but when a city bus driver makes more money + benefits than a pilot at ZOOM for example, well then you gotta give your head a shake about the state of aviation in Canada ( no offence to bus drivers)....
Seen all your posts and I am expatting...have been for several years, and yes Canada is a GREAT place to live and raise a family but... as a pilot.....not the best of places...with all due respect to the great guys that I know who are still flying here and putting up with all the BS...my hat off to y'all.....
What it boils down to is that there are only two sure things in life....death and taxes..the first is for obvious reasons and the second, well we all have to pay taxes whether alot or very little....and as for the rest, well just go with the flow...and always remember to look at the BIG picture......
That's only my 2 Loonies worth...
Cheers,
RWTY;)

[polarus]

Guys ... my 2 loonies worth. Those of you happy in Canada and happy at your respective airlines, congratulations!!

Those of you NOT ... have a look overseas. You will miss Canada, but when the sun shines everyday you get on your boat and spend a full tank of gas playing around for about 10$. The beer is NOT better than home but Canadian beer is imported to the middle east and its about the same price.

and when its time to go to work ... canadian pilots are respected. No BS and just wanting to get the job done and have some fun ... thats the way. Just remember that when you see those LOW salaries back home!!!

So tonight when I get back I will sit on my couch and watch a NHL game on the tube with my Molson in my hand.

Cheers

[brucelee]

The topic was which company in CANADA is the best place to work for. I don't see anything in that title about overseas. Congrats to all those happy pilots flying outside of Canada, but once again you have all shown us how desparate you are to justify your decisions. It's stronger than you isn't it? We all understand how good you have it. Good for you!!

[Left Coaster]

Desperation...not from where a LOT of us expats sit... dont know where you are getting your info from, but its just fine here! I would think that having several big players in Canada fail in the last few years is desperation, but thats only due to the the one major airline in Canada policy our famous feds have had for many many years.

[rwethereyet]

That about sums it up.....say no more LC!:D
RWTY:)

[polarus]

Please reread my post .... The answer was NONE ... and the post originally asked WHY.

I think the reasons are abundantly clear. "new glasses maybe?"

Cheers

[brucelee]

LC.
Ya, desperation. This thread had nothing to do with overseas. One or two threads I can understand. But it turned into a "we're happy, you're not". Know what? We don't care. Good for you that you're doing well. But don't hijack a thread. That's desperation!! That's "look at me, PLEASE". I can also tell your knowledge of the industry in this country is pretty narrow and stereotypical. Anyway, we won't agree on this one, but I just want to thank all you expats for giving me a great oppurtunity by not being around and giving me a better shot at living my dream job in Canada and around the world. Thanks!!

[Left Coaster]

Oh puleeze...you are right on one thing...we wont agree. And by the way. you are way out of line with your statement about my knowledge of the industry...you have no idea what some of my friends and colleagues, or me for that matter, have seen and what my experience level is, so do me a favour and try not to put me in some sort of class here. Enjoy working, enjoy Canada, dont worry yourself about us poor expats, we will be just fine...K?:rolleyes:

[CanAV8R]

Well just to keep old Brucey happy I am going to stay on track. If I was to return to Canada the only option would be WJ. They are growing at a steady rate, have a happy workforce, a solid busness plan and are set up in an area sitting on the worlds second largest proven oil reserves. They will be operating bigger equipment sooner than later. AC on the other hand is looking shakey. Assets have been stripped/sold and it looks like in 2009 the workforce is going to take a kick in the nards. The EMB's are replacing the 320's in some areas and these will be farmed out to Jazz. Ouch. The pension must be in the sites as well.
WJ for me all the way. The proof is in the pudding.
:} :} :}

[brucelee]

I don't know guys but the same old song and dance is getting kind of old. Yep, AC got all that government help, AC is going under, bla, bla bla. Hey boys, wake up and smell the coffee or whatever you smell out there in the desert. I guess you must be AC rejects. Here we go again.

[c150driver]

...well, I'd have to vote for "none" of the Canadian airlines...corporate all the way.
Expat sounds good, but the "happy wife-happy life" thing wouldn't work out:(

[CanAV8R]

Bruce,
You wanted us to stay on topic so in my case I did. AC reject, naw cuz I have never applied. I am sorry if you find that strange. Working for a European flag carrier seemed like a better option. If I showed you my pay stub every month, you may understand why, or cry. Your choice.

I again would take WJ over AC any day and that is the question being asked. From the look of things many in Canada feel the same way.

Stop being an arrogant Tw%t and wind your neck in. AC aint the be all and end all and you know it.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[tbaylx]

If i had to go back to Canada and pick a carrier...hmm that would be a tough choice. I couldn't afford to come back and work for AC in YYZ, the pay is just dismal. WJ would probably be doable, but it would be a stretch for the first few years. Best bet i guess would be finding someone that would take you as a DEC, or corporate.

[brucelee]

Canav8r.
Well, let's set the record straight since we're back on topic. From what I gather, some of you guys base your happiness soley on money. Ok, I guess to some that's all that counts. I make enough money at AC to be happy and live in my own country, the icing on the cake if you will. Next, you would choose WJ over AC. Good choice. Great company. But from what I gather, you now work for a flag carrier or at least a multi-fleet carrier. Going to WJ, you would probably fly a 737 the rest of your career. Clive Bedoe is basing the WJ model on the low costs in the US. Hey, if that's what you like, no problem. Many pilots in Canada don't seem to mind. But since money is so important to you, I'm sure you won't find any widebody captains at WJ making the cash we do at AC (oh, there's that arrogance again, my, my). You're right, many are applying at WJ. But I can guarantee you, especially by the sounds of things on the local forums, most are still wanting to be at AC for the same reasons you are where you are. That is, more equipment and route variety as well as better benefits in the long term. Yah, you would deny yourself a great career with AC just because "it ain't the be all end all". Pretty stupid, bro. On the statement of arrogance, well, I guess that's the price I pay by default from people like you just because I'm an AC pilot. Good on you, jerk. No, AC ain't what it use to be. That I will agree with. My company has paid the price of a merger, bad management and assbackwards government interferance (not aid). Tell ya what though, it's still a great gig. But hey, you're just going to have to trust me on that one brother.

[DesertHawk]

Well my take is....... AC and WJ have their up and downs. Personally i would choose AC for most of the reasons Bruce was saying. The point how most Wj guys wish they were at AC...come on wishful thinking casue you are at Ac like most people they like to make where they are BETTER than it actually is i call it self immortalization:) As far as expats: I have MANY friends that have been offered jobs at AC and have turned them down. Yes if they were earlier in thier careers they may have considered but for most FO expat being in the 30-40 range how can u tuen back the clock and make nothing for 3 years?????? Anyways god luck to all and to each their own that is what makes aviation so interesting everyone is different, if we were all the same it would suck

[brucelee]

"The point how most Wj guys wish they were at AC...come on wishful thinking casue you are at Ac like most people they like to make where they are BETTER than it actually is i call it self immortalization."


Not sure where you're getting that from. That's not what I said.

[CanAV8R]

Bruce, you just don’t get it. Your argument and method of debating are weak at best. I used the money anology to shut your cake hole about how great AC is. I can guarantee you that the wide body Skippers/FO’s in my operation (and we have over 2000 wide body pilots) make considerably more than those at AC. While we are on that topic, WJ pays better at the narrow body level in the current market. This ‘Bro’ is fact. New flash for ya. WJ will be operating wide bodies within 3-5 years max. Canada can support two major carriers and whether you like it or not its going to happen. The old head in sand AC attitude is funny to watch on that one. BA/CX are already in talks with WJ about alignment. My how silly it would be to get involved with two of the worlds most successful and profitable airlines.

WJ in my mind (again what this topic was started about) is the go to gig in Canada these days. The happiest/most stable guys in the US are at Southwest. Have been for years. Someone asked the question so I put in my two sense. You can have your gig at AC, we are all so pleased about your happiness there.

:ok:

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[brucelee]

BA/CX. OK, now that you've revealed it, I guess everything you say is self explanatory. No need to continue. Oh, just one more thing. Remember Canadian Airlines? Yah. Oh but CX will have big BA on its side. Oohh. I'm scared. F'kn idiot.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Just heard on the radio it looks like Harmony is following the Canadian model of airlines in most bananna republics.

[20driver]

Not too many years ago most main line pilots in the states dumped on Southwest as a "real" job for pilots. Pretty much everything Bruce was saying with a few more choice words on top. Seems Southwest did one minor thing that all the others forgot, they made money. Day in, day out running their little 737 greyhound operation. Their pilots are the best paid of the lot and no one leaves. Sort of like the Tortoise and the hare. Southwest has gate agents who have retired as millionaires, let alone pilots.
If you want a stable career in Canada look at what operation is in the best shape to make money on the long term. IMHO if you want to see who will make money in the future look at the track record, it is the best indicator going.
Open skies are here, cabotage of passengers is next. When they have a choice no one in North America is going to pay a nickle more to protect an flag carrier that most people see as ripping them off.
20driver
Never applied to AC, don't work for WJ. Just being watching this for 20 years.

[CanAV8R]

'Bruce, you just don’t get it. Your argument and method of debating are weak at best.'


I rest my case.


:}

[brucelee]

av8tr.
No sir. You are a very one-sided, AC-basher. Reading your previous stuff on this forum makes it rather obvious. To you the future has already happened. "The writing is on the wall". Yah, that's real intelligent. Let me know when BA/CX get together and rule the world. Just what we need, more Brits and cowboys getting together. Brainwashed and arrogant.

20driver.
I'm not implying low costs don't make money. They're pretty much the only ones that do. We're talking about where the best place to work is. Some think it's where the profits are highest. Some think it's overseas even though the topic refers to companies in Canada. Some think it's where the overall satisfaction is, equipment, routes ect.. To each his own.

[20driver]

Bruce, my point is if you want a long term career, where you get to fly, go home and make a decent buck, you must work for a company that makes money over the long term. No profits, no raises, no pensions, at least not for the peons. RM and his like are their own case's. If it is the LOCO's that make money that's were I'd go. The cartels and bilateral agreements etc are long gone. Your problem at AC is not just Westjet, it's SIA, Cathy and Jet. The days of the guaranteed 50/50 split on a route are gone.
Money over the long term is not made by accounting gimmicks like selling the furniture, aeroplan, heavy MX, lease back dodges with a dip into Chapter 11 to dump the baggage. You make by selling a flight for more than it costs you. You’re not doing that you are done.
That means it matters what the customers think, it matters that the planes are full. The days of its "our work" are gone.
If you want the know why SWA makes money, take a look at the SEC filings (410's ?) . Top three execs at Southwest, together, earn a percentage of the CEO average at the legacy carriers. (Nellam at JetBlue makes $500K pa, peanuts in this economy) SWA headquarters were quaintly described by the NY Times as "non descript" The money is in the product that the customer buys.
I’m not having a go at AC. I’m pointing out to someone looking at the field to start out you need to work for a company that makes money. 20 years ago you could say AC would always be there. Today I’d say all bets are off.
20driver

[WRC]

Brucey is an unabashed WJ basher. Probably a WJ reject;)
He does have a point about multiple types etc... so does 20driver about a happy stable outfit. Whatever works for ya.

[brucelee]

WRC.
A WJ reject? Buddy, what are you smoking? I would rather change careers than become a brainwashed, arrogant, WJ puppet pilot (yes I know, they're not all like that). Hey, how fitting is this new Walmart contract? I got a chuckle out of it. No wait, I think they had to help me off the floor from laughing so much. Anyways, yes, you are right, to each his own. And unfortunately for us in Canada, we're short one more company to choose from today. Sad.
20driver.
Yes, much of what you say is true. I would also add though that the service AC provides is one that no other carrier in Canada can provide. AC will never make big profits but can surely survive, especially now as a standalone company. And I maintain that WJ does not intend to become an AC type which is the irony of this whole conversation. If they ever do, it would be interesting to see what margins and profits would look like. They will only be successful so long as they stick to their model IMHO. In any event, who cares? All of us will be working for only a hand full of world carriers in the future. I think AC will be absorbed by United or Lufthansa. WJ of course will belong to BA or Walmart (hehe).

[WRC]

Wow, Brucey, your taking yourself way too seriously. The wink means it's a joke but judging by the nerve I hit maybe not:hmm: . A bit too quick to deny. Your secret is safe with us lol!
Now was Dad on the DC-8 or L-1011? You really sound like a brainwashed arrogent AC pilot (I know, they're not all like that).
Stick to your pink cool-aid Monty gives you.:uhoh:

[aileron]

brucelee,

were you a w%nker before you joined AC or did working for them change you into one?
you are exactly the reason my buddy is actively looking to leave AC!

Good luck to all, working in Canada or outside.

If you ever find yourself as bitter as brucey its time to throw in the towel......"you dont work for AC?????did you fail the interview!!!????"

[brucelee]

Aileron
Wow buddy, your reaction is kind of over the top. You think? Do you feel better now? Bitter? I think you're contradicting yourself. How can I be so happy at AC that I'm bitter?. I simply started out making a point that the thread was hijacked and next thing I know the AC bashers(including yourself) come out in full force. I knew there were losers out there, I didn't know it was such an epidemic. Bitter? No. Sorry might be a better word. Next time I'll just let you guys say whatever you want if that's what makes you feel reassured you did the right thing. If it helps to let it out, go right ahead.
P.S. No Daddy didn't get me in. Long term planning, hard work, and the right decisions did. Just like you.

[gumbi]

hummmm, real professionnal thread, keep up the good work guys!

[Saltaire]

I love it ! Please tell us your serious and it's not just a wind up....

I just can't take it....:D

[brucelee]

Well, geeze, what can I say? Even if it's a joke, there's still some truth in what he says. Yikes!

[Jorge46]

S-angus post really got my interest.
I know he comes from a family of fine pilot's and he, most likely, is one too. Seems to me though that he may be a bit 'wet behind the ears'. I'll tell you something I said on another forum many years ago and that is: "The minute you start thinking you're so 'Sierra Hotel' you better start watching your backside because something is about to come up and bite it real hard"! I'm speaking from 42 years in aviation and think I learned that very early on. Think back to the time you just knew you were going to 'grease' this one on and, wow, did it bang on! Young man, you are among the best, no doubt, but Air Canada doesn't have an exclusive club of 'the best'. West Jet, Skyservice, Air Tansat etc. all have fine pilots. When you think of the 'best' you have to look at Canadian pilot's in general. There is a lot of repect in the world for them. I had the honour of representing Canadians at IATA meetings around the world and was very proud that we stood out among the rest. Canada did not have to take a backseat in the standards of our pilot's.
I was around when there was a lot of hiring at AC and we weren't perfect in our choices all the time. Many who didn't make our hiring went on to have great careers with other airlines.
I hope I haven't hurt your feelings but I wanted you to step back and have a look at another perspective.

[bcpilot_00]

S-angus/brucelee

Another typical ACPA pilot!
Wow that ACPA disease travels fast over there. Make sure you step back and not take for granted the job you have, and the attitude of "how AC are the best". What comes around goes around, so I would jump off your high horse and watch what you say. Its people like you that set reputations of pilots and you are being added to that pile of pilots at Air Canada. Word travels fast in this industry. Trust me, been it for over 12 years. This thread is showing how unprofessional you are!

[brucelee]

Been in it for 12 years? Wow, congrats. That's some accomplishment. That means that when I did my first solo you were eating Pablum baby jars. I guess now a days that makes you a real pro, eh? You f**kn little dipsh*t. Hey buddy, AC isn't everything. It ain't the best. We are just like you. OK? You want the best? Go overseas. No wait, go work for WJ. You probably already do. That's where it's at, baby. And then write us back to tell us how good you have it.

[North of You]

“Speaking as a third generation Air Canada pilot, I can honestly say we only hire the best, and whoever we didn't hire, its because they didn't make the grade.”


Funny. I was just talking to crew sked and were talking about the folks you are taking from us. And it seems you are taking a fair amount from the “difficult” column. Your attitude makes me smile due to some of the people I have personally seen taken on by your great organization. One comes to mind who during lineindock was giving static to the training captain, and there after wrecking the AC not once but three times. So keep one swallowing the red Cool Air there buddy. And try to get out some more will ya.

[bcpilot_00]

Brucelee

Actually don't work for WJ and once again, you make us proud at how professional you are.
I'm not sure why you are taking this so personal, reading back at all the reply's, this just started as a question and all of sudden we have guys with their backs up and slammin people left right and center.
When it comes down to it, we all do the same job, just for different companies and different aircraft. We all love to fly. So take it easy man!

[74tweaker]

Oh man..............This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time.

I gotta go pop some more popcorn. :)

[rwethereyet]

Yes, more popcorn and bring some Kool Aid while you're at it..seems that the other two first generation AC pilots obviously didn't drink enough.....this is genuine entertainment.....only in Canada boys, only in Canada!!

By the way, I guess Harmony is one less Canadian airline to work for....see a pattern here!? Something like if it ain't Red, it's Dead....:rolleyes:

I better just continue with the rest of the "sub standard" aviators....:}

RWTY:D

[brucelee]

AC is an airline like any other airline. Lots of people work there. That means lots of different characters. I find it funny how a thread gets hijacked with the ego of some expats but when someone calls them on it, it's the old "AC arrogance" routine. This forum provides us all with good info. When you intervene and try to change the subject, you are only serving you own ego, which led me to react the way I did. I fear for this industry because of this. "It's all about me" has to be replaced "with it's all about us". Maybe we're just too quick to draw to conclusions. I'm just as much to blame because I stated my case the way I did. As pilots, we should know better. What started out as a thread about Canadian aviation soon turned into an expat's info forum. We have seen this on this forum before. Expats telling us how great they have it. Fine, start a thread on it. There were other ways of doing this but they took the "look at me" road and then the AC minority got blamed for the arrogance (with some merrit after reading a certain post). Thank God the many bad characters that make up the airlines are only minorities. I believe most companies have mostly good people with good intent. Too bad this thread was hijacked though and my theory was shot to hell. Cheers.

[wallygator]

Good point Tonysoprano,....ahem.....sorry....Bruce!

[bzh]

My guess is you almost have a choice, you get a local call and make slow move making peanuts in Canada with a local company, or you take short cuts go overseas fly big jet, live overseas with big money retire back home if you can....
I may never retired so I'd prefer the beer drinking with my extended family, hunting deers, railing walleyes making the 11 of November, the 1st of July and the 14 Juillet a normal ritual no mater what happens, i wont take it in the grave anyways, i love Canada, I AM CANADIAN (born in France).....
I could have been captain on a 737 if I wanted to, but my job is a job not my life... I work to live not the other way around.... I made a retired 747 driver cried when I told him he ****** his life big time.....He was a CX driver lost his wife, kids cut of his sister and by the time he "made it " his parent were gone.... and he was alone... Good luck.
I'd rather fly a Navajo here than a 777 there...
:}

[DesertHawk]

Just wanted to say if any non canadian was to read this thread he would definetely tell his government to invade. Divide and conquer is easy from the looks of it. Down right embarrassing. We are all part of a professional group AC/WJ and everyone else most people tend to forget this in the struggle to become successful. We all chat about helping each other out but a few sour words and we are at each other. No wonder the wages are so low cause most of us would do it to get ahead. Guys PLEASE grwo up. I don not care if u have 60yrs in this industry that doesn't mean u have learned how to conduct yourself as a professional on here atleast. My 17 yr old nephew has more COMMUNICATION skills than this thread.

[brucelee]

Wallygator.
TonySoprano? I must be missing something...


bzh.
"My guess is you almost have a choice, you get a local call and make slow move making peanuts in Canada with a local company, or you take short cuts go overseas fly big jet, live overseas with big money retire back home if you can...."
That pretty much sums it all up.

[extreme P]

I just want to thank Brucelee. I am a proud Air Canada pilot, and I think it about time Air Canada is recognized for what it is; the best.

Speaking as a third generation Air Canada pilot, I can honestly say we only hire the best, and whoever we didn't hire, its because they didn't make the grade.

Anyone who doesn't work for us is a jealous washout.

Can you define "the best"? Certainly not jet experience (at least in your case). Or was your mastery of a B1900 so impressive they could determine you were the perfect A320 pilot? No AC pilots with violations? None ever failed a ride? Will you at least acknowledge a poorly flown CRJ go-around from the world's best pilots?

[CUB181]

geezz guys. can everybody just cut the crap! 'nuff with the BS already.

We should be helping each other out, giving advices, supporting, and treating each other with respect. What's with the competition lately? It looks to me like we are willing to do whatever it takes just to get ahead of others and make it to the top list.....then start a thread in here saying how much better pilot you are from the rest.

believe me, the amount of professional pilots has unimaginably decreased throughout the years. That sense of professionalism, and admiration I felt back when i was a kid, and saw them wearing a uniform is no longer present.

In today's world we see pilots complaining about wearing uniforms at certain colleges, we see guys like brucelee, with no respect whatsoever for anyone. Pilots were a completely different kind of people in the 70's and 80's, very polite, professional, admired, respected and well educated. Now all they do is complain about the money, their schedule, and how much "for worst" the industry has changed.

Well...you guys have also changed....and a lot....not exactly for good.

Complain about going to certain schools that offer degrees or for some other reasons requires the student to stay for longer to finish off. I know of guys with 60% overall wanting to be a pilot....this shouldn't be allowed. marks are only one of the many things that have affected the quality of today's pilot, and I mean my generation of pilots.

being 18 years old, and an immigrant has given me enough "experience" to understand and learn how to treat people like brucelee.

you should check this out and see if you are actually a professional pilot:

http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=270

"An Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession. • He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.
• He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.
• He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.
• He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.
• He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry, the profession, or ALPA.
• He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order."

[pitotman]

Sean,

GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE MAN! YOU MAKE LESS MONEY THAN YOU DID AS A CMA CAPTAIN...................!

Its a job, not a life.......................get over it! :=

Pitotman

[Left Coaster]

Degraded to pilot v pilot recently you think? Nope, this **** has been going on in Canada ever since the feds split up the pie and let 2 airlines fight it out over the pieces. That was how long ago boys? 50 years plus? Been this way since the Pacific went to Canadian Pacific and the rest of the world went to TCA...Nothin new here! And by the sounds of it, it isn't gonna end too soon either, too bad.:rolleyes:

[pitotman]

Just woke up with a banger of a headache and re-read my post! A buddy of mine emailed me and made some very valid points........!
I do not believe that the post was even written by Sean. So Sean please accept my apology from the previous post as I was suffering a long night at the pub after the nuckers let Dallas back in the series.........
Peace,
Pitotman
off to get someting for my head mon!
:ouch:

[french_fry]

Will NEVER fly for Air Canada!
Before any one gets excited I am not a wash out as I was accepted.
I fly outside of Canada in a place where we have a good time; we work hard, get paid good money, and do not spend our lives complaining. And it’s not in the sand pit.
I find that people do not realize how lucky they are sitting in a 767 flying for A/C, then again are they really? I spent many years flying long hours to get to where I am, and there are still a large number of pilots out there working hard to fulfil there dreams and make more than minimum wage!
Where I work we are a core group of pilots that enjoy our time together, do 2 month pairings and get along!
Guys stop complaining! Take a minute and have a thought at those that are still flying hard in the bush some place, they are the real pilots here!
Time to wake up in Canada, help each other out and act like real gentlemen!

cheers

[nolimitholdem]

Wallygator.
TonySoprano? I must be missing something...
heheh you DO have the exact writing style, spelling, viewpoint, opinions, and attitude of a another poster on another certain Canadian aviation forum...I'm just chuckling because I have thought the very same thing several times...Wallygator called it right I think...you aren't exactly "apples and oranges" different from this other poster...

:E

"AC FO-ever!!"

And yes, yes I repent...Canada rules, AC rules, blah blah blah *yawn*

[saudipc-9]

I fly outside of Canada in a place where we have a good time; we work hard, get paid good money, and do not spend our lives complaining. And it’s not in the sand pit.

So why don't you tell us where you work?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Reading brucelees' posts (from way back) I really have to wonder how he made it through the psych tests...

Saying anything contra-AC is like pulling a trigger: instantaneous, predictable response from our resident psycho.

bl, seek help. Go to the doc, book off sick, take a holiday. You are not well enough to be flying anything.

[Johnny767]

Ridiculous Thread (hijack) ...'Ex-pat' verse 'Stay at home' Pilot.

The guys I know who left Canada for off-shore jobs, mostly didn't have much choice. Company went broke, some had serious hang-ups about big Airplanes etc.

Each to their own. For me, watching (Coaching) my kids playing Hockey, actually walking to their School was worth it.

Verses..sending them off to a Boarding School and seeing them at Christmas and during the Summer, no thanks.

That being said, my 'A-scale' Cathay friends have certainly earned a lot more money.

Would I trade them, not for one second.

Sadly being an Airline Pilot in North America just isn't what it used to be. It is turning into a "Lunch Bucket" job.

Seeing Professional Airline Pilots carrying around those tacky little plastic Lunch Buckets makes me want to puke.

Threads like this prove that improvement is highly unlikely.

[4-Daned]

What about those B-Scale CX guys hanging out in the LS of a 747 in YVR!?!?!? No one ever mentions those guys...I know their kids don't go to boarding school, and yeah, they make great money at 9-12 days a month.

Everyone does what's best for them, the grass isn't always greener, and some are luckier than others. I say this thread should die.

[aileron]

Could i just say that:

My wife and kids are happy, the children arent in a boarding school, I make lots of money, I dont have any 'issues' about leaving Canada, Ive never been interviewed by AC or WJ, I dont live in a 'sandpit', the company is good, ....

I hope I havent forgotten anything? Hard to believe?

Its a big world out there.......I dont believe I work for the best company......or live in the best country....when I do a stop over I appreciate what's around me. Whether its a coffee in Rome or a curry in India, the whole point is that its different. If I want to be insular I'd move to the US.

A truce? Any chance we can close the thread? Next time we meet in the bar, a few beers and a friendly chat. We can all learn from each other.

[Trader]

Wee, I do live in the sandpit and love it, Spend lots of time boating, swimming and enjoying the sunny wx year round. My wife works and we make about $140,000/year combined - with no tax. I make good money and have the additional pleasure of sitting in the RS of a 340 flying to great destinations.

We pay part of the schooling and our son goes to one of the top 8 international schools in the world - the education is outstanding and puts our system at home to shame. It is a 7 minute walk to his school. We have a hockey league, albeit very small and he has been learning how to skate (though it is not Canada).

Between boating, swimming, sons hockey, soccer etc, socializing and the bank account I have no desire to work back in Canada. I would consider it if the after tax wages were the same but they are not. In fact, at this point there would have to be extra cash to bring me back because the lifestyle here is one I really enjoy.

It is simple. It works for some and not for others.

[BRAIN66]

Nice job ,great scenery,insulting ,disrespectfull wages,poor job security.Wouldn,t look in Canada they are probaly the worst treated pilots in the game.Volatile economic conditions soon will see lay -offs and many considering permanent career changes or divorce lawyers.However the less the new hirees know the better.Fly and don,t ask any questions and you won,t hear any lies.Overseas employment for a period of 15 years will see a pilot retire comfortably in BC no mortgage and cash offshore paying for the gas for the boat.Want a girl try the internet or go to Thailand:)
Pilots should have been included in the 1994 free-trade agreement that started the destruction of he country.:ugh: Not really anything good to say about Canada so I won,t say anything,except Good Luck.:ok:

[Johnny767]

You have obviously paid a substantial price for flying overseas?

You have lost any literary skills, you MAY have had!

[BRAIN66]

Yes I have however I can get by in French,Spanish and Italian should the need arise,thankyou for bringing that "oh so ever sigificant" point to my attention.:DTypically Canadian.:rolleyes:

[Cyow]

I have read this thread over and over again. BL has a way with being nasty it would seem. However, there are merits to what he says. This thread was to deal with the top job in Canada. It quickly evolved into a quorum of overseas pilots bashing their homeland and touting their own positions out of Canada. I don't think there is anything that comes even close to a real airline in this country as AC. Like it or not, there are great things about it. I won't get into it. Some of you will never agree it seems. After reading some of the comments, I have to wonder where does the real problem lie? Is it BL and his AC juice? Or is it that group of people who just hate AC? I think BL has hit some soft spots in some very large egos out there. :D

[Left Coaster]

Maybe read it again...it's not bashing Canada as you might think, it's bashing the low pay to start any flying job, which has never improved in 30 years...it's bashing the system. It sucks to start again, no matter what your experience, and it sucks that fellow pilots will skewer their best friend to get ahead by even one seniority number. Count the mergers and count the bodies...can you see an end to it? Stay if you can, but if there aren't any good choices,,,what would you do? Happy and comfy where I am thanks!:ok:

[Cyow]

"what would you do? Happy and comfy where I am thanks!"

...and that's all that counts no matter where you are. Canada included.
Cheers.

[Willie Everlearn]

...when it comes to flying for Canadian Carriers....they all suck!:eek:
$40,000 to start??! Are you kidding?:mad:

I hate to sound like an idiot here, but it's been that way for what? ...over 20 *kin' years:ugh::ugh::ugh:.

Has anyone besides me noticed in that time salaries in just about every sector have gone up, the price of a car has gone up, the price of gas has gone up, the price of a home has gone up, the price of just about anything else you can think of has gone up. But these Canadian Carriers, such as they are, have their starting salaries gone up in keeping with EVERYTHING ELSE???? (rhetorical question)

Which one would I prefer to fly for? Not one of them!:= which is why I don't.

(...and I hate those silly, immature WJ ads, they aren't even funny, besides, how many high school pep rallys could you stomach? oh yeah, and what's the difference between those and working at WJ? Nothing!:eek:)

... dat's da name of dat tune!

keep the blue side up (b) and get yer a** outta Canada as soon as you can!!!

(Go Sens go)
Willie
:ok:

[nolimitholdem]

cyow,

You are correct, this thread was initially to ask what would be the top job in Canada. But it is hardly a large logical leap for that to become a debate about what constitutes the best job for a Canadian pilot. Perhaps instead of musing as to what expat flying has to do with Air Canada/WestJet, you should ask yourself WHY such a question provokes such a large response. Somehow I don't think you would see the equivalent with other major national carriers...I have a hard time picturing say, British or Dutch pilots debating the merits of BA or KLM vs. overseas work! It's easy to dismiss it as "big egos" but from what I have seen most other expats are here because they were furloughed...yet Canadians leave Canada voluntarily. Including FROM Air Canada. Instead of writing it off as a bunch of pilots (pretty big bunch!) who couldn't make it in Canada, maybe ask yourself...why?

And if not desiring to work for crap wages and be taxed 50% or more on it is "bashing", then guess I'm guilty. I still love Canada, return several times a year...but after working alongside ex-AC guys, and listening to guys still there...it'll take more than the ranting of brucelee to convince me to come back. If anything, he only validates my decision and is the poster child for the AC stereotype.

In the end...to each their own. I guess I would just hate to see some starry-eyed wannabe pilots actually buy into the bs that AC/WJ are the end-all be-all...it's a big world once you leave the Great White North, don't limit yourself and be happy!

:ok:

(Ducks 2 - Sens 0 heheh)

[Cyow]

Nolimit.
I sense quite a bit of arrogance in you and you seem to have a real problem towards AC. The "AC stereopypes"? What do you know about most AC pilots? Do you even know any? Are you using BL to paint all AC pilots? By making such a statement you're only validating BL's sentiments. Look, I'm sure there are many canadian pilots who wouldn't mind working overseas and I bet there's a few expats (I know a few myself) who can't wait to come home. You can certainly defend both decisions. You want to help "some starry-eyed wanna be pilots"? Start your own thread on how great it is in your world. The topic here was quickly hijacked. We're just going in circles now. Accept the obvious, put away your ego and let's call it a day.:zzz::zzz:

[BRAIN66]

The best Carrier to work for in fairness ,for the not so informed,would be to recommend none.The probability is over 50% that your career choice be full of regret and hassle in a job which to my own disappointment is extremely boring,financially dis-appointing and full off unwelcome arrogance.Air Canada is a monopoly and has been so ever since it was originaly a crown corporation playing dirty underhanded tricks on every other operator in the country.The Air Canada gents that where fortunate enough to save the ass,s good for you.I do not think that a Canadian corporation has the desire to pay pilots in a country that has limited potential.The best thing to do is if you can manage it is build up some time and get a JAA license which is worth 100 times what a Canadian lisence is,then leave the country ASAP.
The day the US/Canada merge I may return with freedom of movement and employment.Until a regime change occurs and the ruling families of the great white north loose their grip on power I will gladly stay away from the draconian canadian aviation industry.Rude,insulting and disrespectfull and not a touch of class to be found.Good Luck :ok:

[Cyow]

Air Canada is a monopoly and has been so ever since it was originaly a crown corporation playing dirty underhanded tricks on every other operator in the country.
Really? Canadian Airlines had about 45% of the domestic and international market in Canada. Now Westjet are at 35% and optimistically targeting 45% by the end of this year. Doesn't sound like much of a monopoly to me. Not to mention all the other companies now in operation here in the great white north flying overseas. Is there any expat out there who knows anything about Canada or AC itself? It would appear that some of you have'nt been too in touch with the reality back home. Must be all that money that causes ignorance.:ugh:

[nolimitholdem]

Dear Cyow,

It seems the best you can come up with is to dimiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as being arrogant. ("Accept the obvious, put away your ego, etc"...guess it takes one to know one eh?!)

Do you even know what a stereotype is? It's a perception, not necessarily reality, but usually started with some basis in truth. You ask what I know of Air Canada pilots. Well let's see. There are the several former AC pilots I work alongside here outside of the country, who chose to leave Air Canada. One who happens to be a close friend. Then there are even more who currently work there. All of them really good guys, from what I have been able to tell.

But that doesn't change the perception that exists that the typical AC pilot is a tad full of himself. Hell even some of the guys I know that work there, acknowledge that much of Canadian aviation regards them as prima donnas. From what I've seen it's more of a residual PR problem than reality (please see previous paragraph)...so I guess my point was, guys like you and BL only serve to set things back a ways with your pouncing on anyone who dares to suggest that maybe Canadian aviation isn't the paradise you claim for everyone. But hey...fill yer boots!

Any decent discussion of aviation in Canada will include options outside of Canada, given that our industry is puny compared to any other G8 nation. Try not to get too twisted about it - it's really not that big a deal.

PS: Anaheim in 6!

:ok:

[Cyow]

Any decent discussion of aviation in Canada will include options outside of Canada, given that our industry is puny compared to any other G8 nation. Try not to get too twisted about it - it's really not that big a deal.
PS: Anaheim in 6!
Well, what can I say? With a statement like that you continue to baffle me. Maybe you should have a look at how Canada is described in its section of this forum.
The great white north. A BIG country with few people and LOTS of aviation.
Anyway, to my knowledge, over the past ten years AC has lost about five pilots that I know of who went to the desert. One of them came back, accepting bottom of the list, one other is apparantly in touch with management about a similar deal and I guess the other three are happy they left. Two pilots from management went over to take top management jobs as well. Not exactly what I would call a mass exodus. As for Canadian pilots in general being overseas, yes I acknowledge that there are many and are doing very well. Oh BTW, the "typical AC pilot being a tad full of himself"? Buddy, are you are so blindly arrogant you can't even read it in your own writing? Now, I've waisted enough time. Better get back to the pool and enjoy some Molson CANADIAN, eh. :ok:
Go Sens Go.

[nolimitholdem]

lol

Hilarious...the forum emailed your post before you edited it...what...not insulting enough the first draft? Yeah, you're right....if PPrune says Canada has "a LOT of aviation" then it must be so. We're just like the US or Europe. What with our um, 2 majors.

Nice to hear you admit that some pilots may have actually found happiness after AC. Must've been painful for you. Sorry, where did I claim a mass exodus of AC pilots? Please quit twisting my words. Guys come and go for various reasons, which was my whole point. If you had grasped that earlier on we wouldn't be having this bun fight.

The whole thread was a question: "Which Canadian Carrier Would You Wanna Fly For?" The answer for many, it would seem...is none. Nothing to get sensitive above. God, AC-baiting is just too easy these days.

Enjoy your beer! Hopefully the Sens can quit whining about the refs long enough to play hockey and win another game!

:D

[Saltaire]

AC has lost far more and 5 pilots over the last decade....another useless stat pulled from the depths of nowhere. I'm one of them and so far so good. Certainly miss home but that's what vacations are for. Do I miss rain, sleet and snow in April or October? Not quite. Dropped about 5 on my handicap so far:D

Blue team, red team, union BS, Ya ! I sure miss that crap. AC is always at the back of the curve. Just getting a 777 now? Yippee. How about those atrocious 767's with about as much in-flight entertainment as a najavo. Getting those refurbished are we? About 8 years too late. Oh, and love the new baby blue robin egg looking livery. Very cool:ugh:


Ha, look, every situation is different, but we all can call it a cool career and haggle over the details. Don't really care....I've made my bed and it's quite soft.

What's the best avaition job in Canada? Me on my 185 on floats after winning 10 million in the 649.

I'm out

[Cyow]

AC has lost far more and 5 pilots over the last decade....another useless stat pulled from the depths of nowhere
Really? I can tell you that when one guy leaves, it gets very well advertized. In the past decade or so a handfull of guys have left, most during the CCAA process. If this was such a bad place to work for and given all those great jobs overseas, AC should have lost far more. Most guys I know that are overseas are there because AC never called. But Canada has other airlines that are very good to work for. I can tell that the corporate flying in Canada is just as good as the airlines. We have all made our choices and hopefully we are happy with those choices. I have stated that there are good jobs to be had overseas but no one is acklowdging that life at home , wether with AC or not, can also be good. That would lead me to think maybe BL was right in hurting some egoes. Good on ya Bruce. Don't take no crap.

[BRAIN66]

Lets call a spade a spade A job with Air Canada especially as a first officer is a "Mcjob"of the airline industry.40K is minimum wage 1st year apprentices make that with a bit of overtime in most trades.How long and how much does it cost to get a right seat job with AC?Ryan air first officers earn if not mistaken $110k in their first year.A gentlemans salary.But if You all get off earning 60-70 percent less so you can drink beer and watch hockey well all I can say is "Whatever sails your boat friend":D

[Cyow]

olbie.
I stated that most guys I KNOW never got a call. Not as a whole.

Brain.
You are quite right, starting salaries suck. A livable salary is not too long to wait though. I was offered a job years back in the London area and even though it sounded great, the cost of living over there made me decide to stay put. Yes, I too had the oppurtunity of a lifetime and turned it down.

[uncle buzz]

It seems to me that guys go overseas for more $$. Sure some guys get turned down and may blow an interview, but ask why did they leave? We all have different reasons.
As for Ryan Air we should remember you have to pay for your own type rating but first you have to be able to live and work Europe. So take off about 35 000 Euros converted to Canadian dollars and lets see what the salary really is. I would call your first couple of years a reverse training bond.
Why argue with one another if the pilots at A/C get a raise it also good for WJ guys when they go to the table.The same goes with other smaller companies. Problem is were to busy selling ourselves out and all managment in every company see's that but us.
Why not have a national association. The teachers have one of the most powerful unions out there. I'm not saying to unionize all the companies, but have a standard for pay from starting out to flying the big iron

[atrflyguy]

Just wondering but are AC and WJ the only two airlines in Canada? If I don’t want to work for either one of those is becoming and expat the only other option? Come on people get on with your lives and drop it all already. If your happy good for you, if your not do what it takes to get that way and if your not willing to then at least shut up about it.

P.S I recall hearing a few other names around the skies to. For example Air North, Canadian North, First Air, Ken Bork, Air Tindi, etc. I personally work for First Air. We have been in business for more than 60 years. No were not the best company, we only have two southern bases and our planes might be a bit old by standards but I will make between 70 and 80K this year as my first full year F/O on the 73 and over the course of a full year I might (might)spend 10 to 15 nights away form home. That makes me HAPPY. I also know people at all of the others I mentioned above and they are happy and for a large part have very similar job security etc as I mentioned above.

As for my answer to the original posted question, I would at this point choose AC due mostly to the variety of eventually being able to choose from several good cities in which to be based and the type of flying i.e.: Short to medium haul or long haul to partake in. Once I decide which one makes me happy. There’s that thing again.

[Cyow]

For example Air North, Canadian North, First Air, Ken Bork, Air Tindi, etc. I personally work for First Air. We have been in business for more than 60 years.


...Harmony, Air Transat, Skyservice, Bearskin, Zoom, Jazz....Sorry, I don't have the full list. There are more.

[atrflyguy]

Thanks Cyow you are correct and now that I have more time I too will add a few more. Buffalo Airways, Air Inuit, Calm Air, Cargo Jet, Porter, hell just go to this page and you can find many more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines


Cheers all

[20driver]

To diverge for a second, I heard a Porter callsign near Ottawa on Sunday. How are they doing with the start up?

[Cyow]

oops. Harmony is no more. I was thinking of sunwing...


20driver.
Little is known about Porter. I'm assuming so far so good but they haven't been around very long. Looks like a good place.

[Johnny767]

Here's the kicker boys, is Air Canada and West Jet the best jobs in the business.

Probably not, but, they are both descent!

Where would you rather "LIVE, PLAY (and most importantly) RAISE YOUR CHILDREN!"

...that is what truly matters.

[DHC6to8]

edited at the request of another

[4-Daned]

Well said!

[Cyow]

I would agree that "respect", whatever that is in aviation, is not a big deal in Canada. Although, my neighbours seem pretty envious. The whole argument on salaries is a little distorted though. While it's true that airline salaries in Canada are poor (at best) during the first two years, it's not long after that one makes a very live-able income in this country. Prt of the problem is also that at AC, you typically get hired onto a regional type airplane or as a relief pilot. These are considered low wage jobs to begin with. I've heard the tax argument come up many times but overall when you factor in the cost of living in Canada versus other places, life as a pilot is still quite comfortable here. If you're willing to put up with those first couple of years. Overseas, you are likely to get hired right onto a big machine hence the bigger bucks.

[Craic Ore]

Just to clear it up, i'd say about 20 guys came to EK from AC and yes it was mostly during the restructuring. Most are still happy and glad they made the choice, we all wonder over here at times, not a perfect place but then again, neither is canada. Most of us love our home and will return and put our money back into the economy there. I guess for me it was all about security (came well before the '02 problems at AC), opportunity and money. Hopefully retiring about 10 years earlier than i would've in canada and with a better lifestyle, but that will be decided in due time.

To me, i hope your all happy where you are and although i thought and still think AC is not the-end-all-be-all, neither is any othe carrier in the world and i'll take my current life, thanks.

Good luck with whatever the future brings.

[Cyow]

Just to clear it up, i'd say about 20 guys came to EK from AC and yes it was mostly during the restructuring.


A little on the high side dude. Most took LOA's, some whent back to the military and as my recent memory can't be all that bad, the EK goers numbered about half a dozen. I know many more had applied, some rejected, some declined to go at the last minute. The number I would consider to be more relevant is the numbers being hired in Canada right now. Like you say, good luck to everyone in reaching their goal.

[Johnny767]

DHC6to8:

Good on ya...we do need more like you.

Tell the Airlines to "get stuffed," maybe they'll get the message. Companies that require "training contracts"..... it goes on and on.

1. Flight Attendants that THINK they should be paid the same as Pilots

2. Flight Attendants that THINK they should be in "Business Class" and the F/O in "Economy."

It is the Socialist Canadian way, we take the Unskilled workers (ramp rats and F/A's) and overpay them.

Which is subsidized by the Skilled (Pilots and AME's.)

I wouldn't trade you, but, you are doing us a favor.

Thanks

[nolimitholdem]

And I too would like to apologize for some of my earlier remarks.

Specifically, the ones that said Ducks over the Senators in 6. They only needed 5 .

[Cyow]

Congrats Nolimit. Just gives credence to the term expat. You fit right in. And when you return, we'll make you feel right at home. Good night over there.:D

[nolimitholdem]

lol

Cry me a river to Paul "Mr. Offshore" Martin.

I'll wave me wee little maple leaf for ye!

cheers, out.

[Johnny767]

...until your looking for your "free health care?"

After a lifetime of not paying taxes, you'll come back waving your "citizenship?'

[Cyow]

well said :D:D:D:D

[sec 3]

Don't start with the health care crap again. All I remember about that is waiting in the emerg for hours on end:bored: Don't miss it at all:ok:

[extreme P]

I got the call while over in Africa for Canadian Airlines back in 1996, I showed up in Vancouver and was offered a job sitting sideways in the DC 10 on call for coffee.... I turned it down because the pay didn't reflect my education or my experience. The big AC has called "again" just recently, and again I have turned them down based on the same reasons as above. I told them the reasons why when they asked. No comment - however a certain AC Captian who I will not mention here in public called me later and told me he respected me for being honest and upfront. He also went so far as to say that the industry in Canada needs more people like me.

How is it that certain senior Captains within said airlines can always shift the onus for change upon pilots looking for jobs within said airlines? Don't accept those lousy wages and things will get better. Only thing that gets better are the paycheques at the top as they take from the bottom.
Same thing happened with the CX 49'er issue. Don't apply as you'll teach CX a lesson. Didn't stop those within from accepting upgrades though.

[Johnny767]

Didn't stop those within from accepting upgrades though.

How would refusing "upgrades" help anything. I'm going to sit here, and rot, as a Relief Pilot / First Officer, that'll show the Company?

In the 'Big Airline,' 'Big Seniority List' Airlines, you are held hostage. Once you have the investment (of time,) you're screwed.

Where / what are you going to do, quit and start over again somewhere else.

A few brave souls have done it. Personally I do not know many success stories.

Two things are likely, to never happen:

1. The hiring pool of applicants drying up (except in our fantasys,) as they will just lower the requirements. They have hire 250 hour Pilots before, and will again.

2. Entry level wages being what they should be. In '07' dollars, 100K to start!

[Red Mud]

Geez ... earlier I commented on the thread drifting nastily off topic and it happened again. Seven pages long and five of them are griping, moaning and whining. Embarassing at best. Is there no moderator to rein in you yahoos?:yuk:

[nolimitholdem]

Do you feel that the question in the post title has not been answered sufficiently or are you only wishing to add your own whining?

:D

[Red Mud]

Oh the question was answered to be sure. Just a comment on the tone as I wonder what any non-Canadians would think about the bashing we gave ourselves.:ugh:

[nolimitholdem]

Fair enough. I think the bashing was more to the Canadian industry than to Canadians though. Well, except for Senator fans, but they deserve it.

:{

Peace out ya'll!

[jinglied]

Johnny 767..

I doubt any of us here are looking forward to Canada's "free health care" when/if we return. It is nowhere near what it used to be years ago. The "pit", although it has it's shortcomings, has much better care than Canada. Another reason NOT to work in Canada maybe?

Sorry about the thread creep all...

Jinglie'd

[Cyow]

Moderators.
Where are you? This thread is not what you advertize your forum to be. Care to allow Mr. Brucelee back? Idiots...:D

[Left Coaster]

Actually, if you think about it, this thread finally shows the rest of the industry just exactly what it's been like in Canada for YEARS! Pilot v Pilot, friend v friend, and company (s) v company (s)... Tough place to be a pilot trying to make a living early in his/her career. An excellent place to be from and all govenmental foibles aside, a country I am proud to call my birthplace. It also goes to show that once you wake a Canadian up with something he or she feels strongly about...you have a big problem on your hands...slow to rouse but fierce in conviction! Cheers!

[Mach trim]

I was laid off from First Air in 2002. :ugh::O:ugh:

It was tough to leave Canada with no job.

It is because of aviation that I left Canada to find a job.

I am not going to sit in Canada and collect UI or work in construction or start selling vacuums.

Now I am flying brand new A320's in Spain.

The health care system here is better. Much better.

I applied to AC and Westjet did not get called for an interview, still have not been called by AC.

I did not know anybody well enough at Westjet.

I was bitter towards AC not any more.I did care at the time now I do not care about AC or Westjet.

Right now I am not even interested in applying for Westjet or Canada it would be a huge pay cut.

Sadly, perhaps I will never return to Canada, except to visit, spend money and contribute to the economy.

I do blame aviation for this, but life is good here,too.


Why dont we pilots stick together instead of bickering amongst ourselves ?

[Tintin]

Could nt agree more, I'm gone for 7+ years now it will be a lie to say that I dont miss home, but not the aviation. There two choice left for me. One stay here bank the max to buy a house cash and be ok to fly back a dash 8 at little $$, that of course if i can remember how to fly...or find a commuting contract. Whatever you are force to expatriate yourself, leave by choice (like me) or stay. It's a personnal choice and both have dark side. Expat life although interesting IS NOT for everybody, I have seen many come and go with big dream of big bank account who goes back home cause they can't adjust to the culture, heat, driving ect. Funny enought newly canadian passport holder give it a try in our big white north but they all call it quit after few year because apart for AC , let's be honest here it's a BIG JOKE. But hey, I was warned when I start at the college they told us if you wanna be millionaire in that job START WITH 2 MILLION at the bank.

enjoy

[Johnny767]

Johnny 767..

I doubt any of us here are looking forward to Canada's "free health care" when/if we return. It is nowhere near what it used to be years ago. The "pit", although it has it's shortcomings, has much better care than Canada. Another reason NOT to work in Canada maybe?

Sorry about the thread creep all...

Jinglie'd

So..."The Pit" has better health care than Canada.

Maybe? ....while you are employed.

However:

Where are you going to retire?

1. Vancouver Island, with all the Cathay Pilots?

2. Lake of the Woods?

3. The Muskoka's?

...or "The Pit?"

Do you even get benefits after you retire?

10 bucks says you are back here...

Hiding behind your "Citizenship Shingle."

[sec 3]

You owe me ten bucks Johnny:E Where i'm gonna retire I might have to pay a little, but i'l get quality health care at a very reasonable price.

[SpiralDive]

So, is anybody successfully pulling off the commuting thing, with a family based in Canada? I'm currently over in Europe building time on the Boeing but not really looking forward to going home and being on welfare. Unfortunately, the wife is getting itchy feet and divorce is also expensive so need to check out my options. :ugh: Back home I'd be pretty lucky to get into Jazz with my experience, but here the salary is actually 3 times what I'd make there; I'd rather work away for five months a year and take the next 7 off back home.

[Johnny767]

Cheques in the mail, sec 3. Where are you planning on retiring?

[Mach trim]

Johnny,
I'll take you for ten bucks too.

Winters are too cold but will be back for the Summers.

Sunny Spain will be nicer if I will have arthritis

Spiral dive,

That is tough.

What about bringing the wife to Europe ?

[SpiralDive]

Ya, sorry when I re-read my post it's a bit unclear. Right now we're both over here in England but she wants to go back home as soon as we can, so I'm wondering if commuting is an option. I don't fancy my chances getting a decent domestic job with only 2500 hours (2200 737) and no PIC to speak of. Anybody commuting worldwide or doing contracts part time and based in Canada able to share their experience?

Thanks

[CanAV8R]

Quite a few guys at BA commute. I can think if at least 15 from Toronto and other spots on the east coast. We also have guys coming from YVR and YYC.

[Azure]

SpiralDive
This is interesting if you plan on commuting.
http://www.canada.com/topics/travel/story.html?id=423701fc-3915-4df9-b72c-329409b997c8
Since tax freedom day came two days early this year...June 19.....whoopie, :* I'm not quite as bitchy as I was in April.
Should you want to fly in Canada, WJ would probably be your best bet, sure the $ aren't great the first two years, but after that.....:ok:
It seems a lot of Jazz pilots are jumping ship to WJ, so much so that they are trying a new program, hiring pilots right out of college. :sad:
I doubt you would have a hard time finding employment. WJ takes applications via: http://www.workopolis.com/
Good Luck on whatever you decide.
PS: What? Does your wife miss about Canada?

[SpiralDive]

Thanks a lot for all of the feedback guys, its appreciated.

Any insider knowledge on BA regarding the commuting guys? I would have thought you'd need to be pretty senior to get a roster that could be commutable from the west.

Azure, thanks for the info. WJ would be ideal but I'll need to get the 1000 PIC requirement from somewhere. I'm with a bit of a legacy operator here so could be a good few years to command. Was thinking of trying for the Flybe direct entry command but its a bit of a risk going from jet to turboprop and kind of putting all the eggs in one basket. Easyjet might be a good option if they're still fast tracking people and Cathay I think as well. (She misses her family, so not something we can easily fix) I'm happy as long as there's a pub around so I quite like it here!

Thanks

[Tintin]

Try that http://www.mbkaviation.com/

good luck

[BRAIN66]

Spiral Dive perhaps it,s time to show the wife the door.As a breadwinner in the UK replacement for that warm boby wouldn,t be much trouble.Adios baby:)

[MrSkyGuy]

This is my first post in the PPRN (ducks for cover), and I thought it was rather funny how the very topic I wanted to start had already been going here since March. Saved me the trouble of posting my first thread with a #1 next to my post count. :ok:

Quick question somewhat back to the core of this thread.. are there any First Air pilots floating around these forums?

[Capt Apache]

I see everyones cursing the salary in canada.could someone tell me what is the take home salary of a First Officer in West Jet

[Azure]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.info/airlines/canadian/westjet.html
Quote from a new FO another forum:
Worst case don't contribute to the ESP, first/second year and work some overtime to help make ends meet if it's that tight. My take home is $1130
every 2 weeks before perdiums. But, I am also not in the ESP (yet). I have also heard of guys making 10-20K in overtime a year if they work hard. I would think that would still beat being attached to a pager 20 somthing days a month.
But it comes down to what you want in life, and whats important to you.
You can't go wrong choosing a family over work.

[GreatCircle]

If I was starting out, I would for sure have my eyes east...waayyyy east looking for a gig...

I am happy with my lot, as I can balance family and work - wife works from home, and I bring home net usually c. $8200-ish a month....which is just dandy...

It all depends what you're looking for...and where you are on the ladder too I guess...

[ted23]

Where are the best spots for a fledging Canadian expat to head for? I looked at CX but wasn't interested in what they were offering; the sandpit seems to be experiencing steadily deteriorating conditions for pilots....I am doing okay in Canada but growing extremely weary of the high tax conditions and resultant low wages. Yes we live in a fantastic country but we are starting to consider doing some overseas time to get the finances in order, as they have taken a beating from over 9 years in this Canadian industry. Currently over 5500 hours TT with 3800+ PIC, 1200 Jet, all B737NG but as F/O of course....

I have heard that you shouldn't head overseas unless you are a Captain, but interested in hearing some stories of guys that have done it.:ok:

[Lyman Zerga]

Ted, as greenback slides, so does dirham (UAE currency). Competition is ever increasing and all of the players in the region are wearily checking their six.
Give it a shot at "Etihad" - FO take home is CAD 7500-8000, company paid accomodation, subsidized private school of your choice, subsidized medical/dental. You can reasonably expect upgrade within 3 to 4 years. Abu Dhabi is safe place with most amenities you are used to. What you need to do though, is some scouting/research. It is by no strech of imagination ideal place/company; I guess it all depends on your (and Mrs':\) expectations.
A lot of negative posts and a (very) few realistic ones have been written in ME forum. If you are open minded and have realistic goals, give it a try. I did. No regrets.

[Saltaire]

If your planning to go to the ME, Emirates is still the number one choice and best option. It's the most established, has the biggest growth plans and is more of a known entity.

[cpdude]

This thread started as a "what is the best airline to work for in Canada". In that regard...I have a question for WestJet and Air Canada pilots.

I am a CX pilot approaching mid 40's and have had enough of the ULH flying for a company that doesn't care about it's pilots. Money is no longer the prime concern. Instead it has shifted to happiness and longevity. I know I can't continue with what I'm doing till 60 but I feel it may be possible at WJ or AC.

I plan to join AC or WJ in the next 12-18 months. I am looking at perks and pay after 3-5 years and 10 years only. I couldn't careless what I flew! I accept the fact that the first 2 and maybe 3 years will be at a low salary.

WJ I understand offers ticketing for life after 10 years or age 55. What does AC offer with ticketing?

WJ has an option to work down to 50 hours which is desirable I feel for older pilots. Does AC allow this?

Other than the pay issue at AC, are you guys generally happy or happier then 2-3 years ago?

Any other comments concerning these two airlines would be apprieciated!

[Mizuno boy]

cpdude,

If you are looking to return to Canada have you ever thought of the corporate/GA side of things.

Cheers

[Saltaire]

Dude,

I'd go the AC route. Pension is still there, route structure, benefits, national carrier, different basing options, airplane options, etc...true, the first couple years are painful for the wallet.

I'm thinking of the same option, but in another 5 years.

Good luck

[cpdude]

MB, I have but I don't want to live on a pager!

Saltaire,

I'm leaning that way but pension is not a big draw. I'm looking for a place I would be happy to work till 60.

Anyone know if AC allows job-share type rosters? IE 40-50 hours for 50% pay? WJ has the 50 hour option in the contract if desired.

[troff]

EK.
Hockey.
Skiing.
Tax free.
YYZ dct in Oct.
T

[Azure]

This thread started as a "what is the best airline to work for in Canada". In that regard...I have a question for WestJet and Air Canada pilots.
I am a CX pilot approaching mid 40's and have had enough of the ULH flying for a company that doesn't care about it's pilots. Money is no longer the prime concern. Instead it has shifted to happiness and longevity. I know I can't continue with what I'm doing till 60 but I feel it may be possible at WJ or AC.
I plan to join AC or WJ in the next 12-18 months. I am looking at perks and pay after 3-5 years and 10 years only. I couldn't careless what I flew! I accept the fact that the first 2 and maybe 3 years will be at a low salary.
WJ I understand offers ticketing for life after 10 years or age 55. What does AC offer with ticketing?
WJ has an option to work down to 50 hours which is desirable I feel for older pilots. Does AC allow this?
Other than the pay issue at AC, are you guys generally happy or happier then 2-3 years ago?
Any other comments concerning these two airlines would be apprieciated!
This may help your decision.
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=757484

[cpdude]

Azure...thanks.

[xtwapilot]

Gents,
I would like to know if the first and second year pay at AC is a salary or an hourly rate? Also if it is an hourly rate, is there a possibility of making more than base pay by doing extra flying? I would love to apply to AC but the first and second year pay as advertised is a huge show stopper for me. Thanks inadvance.

xtwapilot

[sandboxpilot]

The original question was regarding opportunities in Canada. The thread then subsequently degenerated into a expat/nationalist pissing contest.
To the original question:
The bottom line is to always bear in mind that you might not get the job you are after. Most of us react to opportunities as they arise. If AC offers you a position before WJ, then take it, and vice versa.
Try to keep all options open - that includes advancing your qualifications to work in any and all parts of the world forwhich you are eligible. If you have a UK passport, then get a JAA license and apply to BA et al. If EM will take you as a Canadian with Canadian credentials, apply there too.
You never know when your current employment will fall apart in this fickle industry. Throughout your entire career you should be spending regular periods researching other opportunities. Its an administrative burden, but you owe it to your dependants to be ready in the event of a layoff. Never be too loyal to your employer. Always remember, its a free market.

[Mach trim]

Sandbox,

Totally agree but dont think it is necessary to start a new thread for expats.

As right now after having applied to Westjet (dont know anybody there ) and Air Canada years ago and for years.

Personally I am not interested in applying for a Canadian carrier at the moment. My answer to the question is none.

Threads do take a life of their own we are on pprune after all not a Canadian
run forum.

I do miss Canada but having been laid off and gone abroad.


Currently living in Barcelona,Spain

There seem to be a number of guys on this thread who have gone through similar stuff.

[flyguy25]

To the person who think canada's health system sucks.. all I can say is its better then the US. Here you can have a heart attack and not have hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills, they have it backwards down there you shouldnt have to pay to see your family doctor they should be paid by the health board or the government. its wrong!

When it comes to airlines which is what this site is for, keep in mind that Canada has always had a rocky unsteady airline industry. Ive worked for two of of the few airlines here in canada and dont have anything nice to say about Air Canada, higher pay yes but they treat you like dogs. Skyservice lays off cabin crew which is my profession way to often but is a great company to work for. Westjet is hard to get into as they recieve hundreds of resumes a day. I would love to fly for Sunwing Airlines they seem to be the new upcoming thing here in toronto and they are young enough to have room to grow, their service is impecable and they deffenatley now what an airline should be.

Regards

[troff]

Flyguy,
What are you on? Is it legal? Can I buy some?
T

[Auroradude]

Flyguy,

You are joking...right. I can't even get a family doctor in this 'perfect' health care system that you speak of.

Heck, my mother had a heart attack while vacationing in Phoenix. The doctor told her that she probably would have died if this happened to her in Canada. By the way, the doc was a Canadian who studied at McGill, then got tired of the deplorable working conditions in our deplorable health care system.

[555orange]

Hey flyguy...turn off your bold characters please....its rude to shout while your speaking!

I think the comparison is assumed that you have medical insurance in the US. If you are employed down there in a decent job...you should have it from your employer for a good rate. If you don't...but are still employed you should have a lower level package of your own at maybe 300 bucks a month or so? You save much more than that in taxes down there ... so if your not paying for it (hoping to save some money) your foolish and just asking for trouble. Btw.. I understand that they will not turn you away down there if its an emergency(heart attack). Even if you can't pay. Now..on to the benefits of a "insurance system" over the Canada "beurocratic system". In the In surance system, if you have a problem and need say...a MRI for eg, you will get one within Days. Why? Because the furthest thing the insurance co wants is for you to get more sick and eventually make a claim. So..the nip the bud ASAP. That is the benefit. Where in Canada...you will go on a waiting list...and your doc will make an appointment say 6 months away or more!

Neither system is perfect, but this is my observation. You gotta look below the surface.

Orange

[Mach trim]

Perhaps we should change the name of this thread.

A few years ago 2000 I was living in Aylmer ( Quebec ) and we couldn't get a pediatrician for my children as we had just moved there. Long waiting lists.

Went to a general doctor in Ottawa. My son had a condition which was not noticed.

Then after being laid off moved to Spain, the doctors found a condition which was not noticed by the general childrens doctor. He was operated on right away with no waiting. I was very impressed the Spanish heath care system.

I believe the Canadian health care system had failed my son and glad I moved to Spain ( for him )which has a much better health care system ( I am ashamed to say it ). It is possible if I had not moved to Spain my son would have permanent speech problems. I am speaking only from personal experience.

As we Canadians need to take action and write. our MP's and get them to reinvest what they took out of a previously good system. Meanwhile profitable corporations are getting huge tax breaks.


Getting back to the original threaded topic.

Is going to Air Canada all that it is cracked out to be ?

A lot of unhappy pilots and the contract coming up next year. You start at the bottom and what about the next downturn in the business cycle.
Going on an Embraer to TO for a few years did not have a lot of sex appeal, for me, but that's just my personal opinion.

Is their hiring and interview selection process getting Air Canada the best pilots ?

Call me old fashioned but a simulator evaluation ( which costs more ) is in my opinion a better way to see what a guy is like in the cockpit than these psycho and cognitive tests.

What the hell do I know ?
I am here to learn and be humbled.

[555orange]

Yep...flyguy doesn't know what hes talking about!