Kent Plane Crash - Aborted Take off

[Danza]

Linky to BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6440199.stm


Sadly, reports now inducated the pilot died in hospital. Hoping for a speedy recovery to all those involved.

[3FallinFlyer]

Pilot died in hospital. Very sad :-( I jumped from that plane yesterday - Condolances to all involved.

[Alvin Steele]

Very sad news, It looked like everyone was relatively ok in early reports.

Where did the plane finish up?
The report was suggesting the airfield museum, although I'm sure there is another relic situated near the large hangar.

[thirtysomething]

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6440199.stm)

It seems the pilot who sadly passed away as a result of his injuries was unable to bring the aircraft to a halt before running out of runway.

[Shoo shoo]

Does anybody know why he/she aborted the take off?

[floppyjock]

thirtysomething

The report does not say the pilot passed away and neither did the BBC TV report this morning.

Floopy

[Danza]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6441333.stm

[DeeCee]

Judging by where the aircraft ended up, it looks as if they were using 22. Is that right?

Sincere condolences to everyone involved or connected.

[Shoo shoo]

What was the weather like anybody know? If muddy stopping could be interesting on a grass field.

The last time I was there - last summer - the static display was some way away from the runway between the hangars and the club buildings. Quite a way from the centreline.

What a shame, a great place & nice people.

[Martin @ EGLK]

22 it is.

It's ended up in the side of an ex French Navy Super Sabre. A bit of a one sided contest.

Condolences to the family of the deceast and I hope the injured get well soon.

[Miserlou]

The brakes are useless anyway and the aircraft has a very high and forward C of G; you don't want to use both brakes at the same time.
Stopping would be a matter of reverse thrust which would only be available if he got the propeller control in but is very effective.
Twas a lovely aeroplane, too.

[thirtysomething]

I work in Skydiving and speaking to people in the industry some are blaming a boggy wet runway , at some point its believed he decided he wasnt going to get the speed he needed and tried to abort.

[itchy kitchin]

Steve,
We flew together in the states,
we toured the coasts of northern france,
we bashed the bush strips here in Zambia,

Miss you already my good freind.

R.

[3FallinFlyer]

Not flown a taildragger - but once the tailwheel is off the ground, if the power was cut I would suspect there would be a large and sudden loss of rudder authority - particularly with a large turbine engine.

[Martin @ EGLK]

Unless things have changed since I was last flying there in Sept 06, the runway finishes just short of an area that's just been re-tarmaced. The surrounding areas & area just short of the crash scene are bumpy/pitted & would offer little assistance to any attempts to use the brakes.

Shoo shoo, the Super Sabre that was hit is almost in line with the centre line of 22.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Well well,

Funny how everything that's been said so far on this subject is, as usual, complete bolleaux:rolleyes:

Please can we respect the deceased pilot, and stop the speculation...?

Martin@EGLK, check your PMs

[robinpiper]

Don't know about the weather at Headcorn on Sunday but Rochester has been closed on and off for weeks due to flooded runways.
I have been advised myself on a visit to Headcorn the location of the standing water whilst taxiing and asked politely not to brake too harshly so as to avoid leaving grooves down the runway.

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/news/default.asp?article_id=31321 shows photo of damaged aircraft

I'm sure the boys & girls of the AAIB will get to the bottom of the cause, until then condolances to all involved.

[Miserlou]

It's not all bolleaux; some is pure fact.
It is human nature to ask the question why. No-one has criticized the pilot and the AAIB won't flinch for fear of offending his family; just plain facts.

More plane facts.
The controllability of the aircraft is the same during an aborted take-off is the same as for every landing.

The numbers for the Beaver are take-off ground roll, MTOM, 10 degrees C, sea level, dry concrete, no wind, 650' and 1450' to 50'. The runway in use was 550 metres of soggy grass.

The above figures are for the 550hp engine. The aircraft in question would, if following standard procedures due to noise abatement, be using 609 of the max permitted 680hp.

[luigi_m_]

Steve was my instructor during much of my PPL, and the news is devastating. He was an excellent pilot, but more importantly, he was a great man with a great attitude to life. I will miss him loads.

[Big Hilly]

Sad news indeed.

Steve was meant to come around and fix a couple of heaters for me next week.

There but for the grace of God go any of us. . .

BH

[Miserlou]

Regardless of what the home-censor brigade may want you to think, 'speculation' is, for the involved parties, a very important part of grieving and coming to terms with the situation. The Americans call it closure.

Some people will see the picture on the Kentonline website and ask themselves if the flaps were set to take-off position (which isn't clear but they don't appear to be) and cringe knowing that they got away with it when they did exactly the same thing.

[Achilles426]

I flew with Steve and shared a flat with him at Anglo, we become very good friends. I cannot recall any one event right now, I am too upset - however he was a great laugh, brilliant cook and loved flying.
He always amazed me with little bits of aviation trivia, in particular about military aviation and as a ex naval aviator he caught me out a few times.
He was a great friend to my family, and to all his worldwide circle of friends. RIP my friend I will miss your advice and companionship.
I will always have a pint of London Pride for you back in blighty.
Shippers

[IO540]

IMHO a technical discussion of accidents is worthwhile.

The AAIB report does come out .... eventually ... but more often than not it is mostly speculation, especially in accidents (not this one) where there were no survivors. They do dress it up in formal language, but if you read between the lines you can tell they don't really know. No FDR, no CVR...

[Whirlybird]

I would prefer 'accidents' were not reported in this thread - unless solely for the purpose of condolences by those who knew the deceased.


Then may I respectfully suggest that you don't read them. Some people find discussion and speculation helpful; this applies whether or not they were involved or knew the people involved.

This particular argument comes up again and again on here whenever an accident happens. We are all different, and we all have different feelings about what should or should not be posted on the Professional Pilots' RUMOUR Network.

Personally, the only thing I object to is others telling me what I should or should not post. But there you are, maybe I too need to learn tolerance and acceptance. :=

[Shoo shoo]

I agree with W'bird here & there has been no speculation that I have seen. Most I imagine - like me - simply wish to try & understand what could have happened.

It is a tragedy and nobody so far has suggested that the pilot was anything but a good guy in all respects. Anyone who's been in a similar position will know that it could have been them & so of course we want to try & understand. When we have exhausted all the facts that are available - like for example it was runway 22 - then the picture will be as clear as it can be untill the AAIB report appears.

It was a long while ago but I was based at Headcone in the '80s flying the Seneca on daily trips all year round and winter there, it did present some challenges. The reason I have particular interest in this accident - apart from the human issues - is that I too rejected a take off following a hefty brid strike, a seagull in one prop - and only just got away with it before crossing the main road. So I was on the long runway.

OK a different aeroplane on a different day but I can't help identify with this poor sod who did not walk away afterwards. What I learned was that even with an awful lot of runway in fron of you, if it is muddy and wet it will take one hell of a long way before you can stop. I too was then a CPL with lots of experience but still got a shock at how much road I needed. Time is not on your side with such decisions.

A tail dragger has an additional handicap when it comes to stopping as it can nose over and any TD pilot will have that in mind when consdiering the STOP option. It is an additional pressure.

Reliable performance calcs are simply not available for those conditions if a runway is muddy and wet.

What someone more connected to HCN may be able to answer is this. Why were they using 22, rather than the longer runway? A cross wind doesn't seem a likely reason as jumpers don't jump in high wind do they? Well maybe they do now & maybe the Beaver has a v low X'wind limit but i am interested to understand -NOT speculate OK?

[Miserlou]

As you may have gathered, I know the Beaver and the airfield though I have never used runway 22.

The Beaver's max demonstrated crosswind is 15kt but the book recommends 13kt to be safe under normal operating procedures.
The flap setting for take.off is 35 degrees and the prop wound back to reduce noise. The prop has to be in fully fine for reverse to be available.

In the reports I have seen the flaps appear to be fully up. In this condition, you'd have to be doing about 100mph before you would be able to drag it off the ground main wheels first. Or be quick enough to realize and pump them down, at which she leaps into the air.

Naturally, my sympathies go out to the bereaved.

[dublinpilot]

"Facts" based on pure speculation.
So many people with an opinion that is worth squat.
The "human nature aspect" is sadly one of 'rubberneckers' who just want to voice their expertise and opinion - or show some photos of the accident/wreckage.
Leave it to the experts in the AAIB who will determine the facts. Facts which will not offend.
Speculation on the other hand - is offensive.
I am entirely with Chuffer Dandridge on this one.
I would prefer 'accidents' were not reported in this thread - unless solely for the purpose of condolences by those who knew the deceased.

SoCal,

I respect your opinion. Your posts are normally very well thought out, and informative.

But you have been around here long enough to realise that we have had this debate many times. People wish to learn from these incidents, so that they can avoid the same mistakes themselves. Often the mistakes that they learn are not ones that anyone accuses the pilot of making, but rather ones that come up as part of the discussion. By the time the AAIB report comes out, they have forgotten about the incident, and it is less likely to make an impact on us. As such we are less likely to learn from it.

Anyway, we have had this discussion numerous times now, and there is sufficient people who wish to learn from these incidents, that they will not stop posting. If you don't like to read such posts, then it's best you don't read such threads.

Misterlou,

Don't read too much into the flap position. The pilot may very well have raised the flaps when he aborted the takeoff, to help put weight onto the wheels, and help increase the effect of the brakes.

dp

[Dave Evans]

Miserlou,

We obviously both know this airfield and aeroplane intimately. Therefore quite surprised at this:

The runway in use was 550 metres of soggy grass.


Not only did I fly the subject aircraft on the day, indeed flew with the pilot involved as well, but also remarked on how dry the runway used appeared.....which, due to a lack of recent use, was actually a better surface condition than the rest of the airfield.

I take it you were also there and used the runway in question???, which would explain your knowledge of the conditions...?:D

Rumour network yes, utter uninformned bolleaux you heard from a mate's brother, definately not:(

Please show some respect for the poor chap and his family and keep your opinions to yourself

[Miserlou]

DP, (how rare it to use those letters in polite conversation).
The most reliable and effective source of braking with this aircraft is the propeller; it can taxi backwards.
To retract the flaps would mean taking your hand from the power lever thus losing the reverse, then moving the flap direction selector to up and then pumping the hydraulic hand pump.
Combined with the wet, muddy grass, high c of g taildragger, it is a less likely scenario.
As stated earlier, the lack of TO flap setting would prevent the aircraft from getting airbourne.

[Shoo shoo]

It would therefore be helpful if someone who actually witnessed the event made some comment.

Does anybody know what the wind was at the time?

[lc_aerobatics]

In my early years of flying, when I flew with some of the national team members in rally flying they were using very interesting technique for short field take-offs.

You accelerate without any flaps or anything and as you approach your lift of speed you put the flaps down, Steve could have been suing this technique as well.

I knew Steve pretty well and we'll all miss him.

[Miserlou]

Dave,
Sorry, I see this may have been taken out of context.

I do know some-one who was intending to fly from that runway a couple of hours before the accident and was briefed about the soggy conditions. Soggy is not a term which holds any weight in terms of performance corrections like wet grass, dry snow, slush etc.

I mention the runway surface only to show that the book take off data on dry concrete would NOT reflect the actual runway conditions.

My apologies, once again.

From an earlier post, "and cringe knowing that they got away with it when they did exactly the same thing."

I have every respect for the pilot. I guess this is one of those filling the experience bucket before the luck one runs out.

[OpenCirrus619]

Does anybody know what the wind was at the time?

This (http://www.skylink-pro.com/headcorn/data.php) gives the raw data from the weather station on the airfield. You can change the date at the bottom of the page and change the units (defaults to m/s) on the user_settings tab.

OC619

[englishal]

The problem is the AAIB report will take months, if not year to be released. IN the meantime if our speculating manages to make one pilot think twice about something, or reinforces a "gut" feeling or even saves someones life, then it is worth it.

FWIW I think that the more speculation takes place, the closer to the truth the speculation eventually ends up. There may be many people with snippets of information which when they are all put together show the bigger picture........

[Alvin Steele]

The problem is the AAIB report will take months, if not year to be released. IN the meantime if our speculating manages to make one pilot think twice about something, or reinforces a "gut" feeling or even saves someones life, then it is worth it.

Agreed.
Not wanting to sound flippant, but off any other runway the incident would have maybe resulted in cuts and bruises, 22 ends with an F-100.
Didnt think 04/22 was licensed.

[Adrian Adams]

I knew Steve for a few years on and off and it is sad news.

Sorry to say it but now I know the meaning of :There are bold pilots and there are old pilots but there are no old, bold pilots.

RIP.

[Shoo shoo]

Thank you Open Cirrus, v interesting.

Not much wind & within X wind limits. Doesn't exactly explain 22 though.

[portsharbourflyer]

I last spoke with Steve just before christmas, I can't claim to have known him as well as some that have posted here (Itchy Kitchen), but when we last spoke we had agreed to meet in London for a drink, my biggest regret in life will be not arranging that drink sooner.

All respect to SD.

PHF

[3FallinFlyer]

jumpers don't jump in high wind do they?

For the record, the BPA limit for experienced jumpers is 25kts.

[Canada Goose]

And believe, me there are some that will jump winds approaching that !! And not nice for us pilots if that ends up being a full crosswind component !!

Back to thread, I think it is useful having to read the stuff on this thread. As others have mentioned, if it makes you think twice about certain things, then it will hopefully prevent other tragedies ! Believe me, been there, done that ! Also, organisations like the AAIB will make their report using statements and information given by witnesses.

In the meantime, my thoughts to go the pilot, his family and friends.

CG.

[Miserlou]

Portsharbourflyer,
You reminded me of this verse of Khayam. Relevant, I am sure, for all who new Steve.

Lo, some we loved, the lov'liest and the best,
That time and fate of all their vintage press'd,
Have drunk their cup a round or two before,
And one by one crept silently to rest.

[OpenCirrus619]

And it reminded me of this:

Do not shed a tear for me
For I would not for you
Instead just drink a beer for me
And know well that I knew
Dreams of flight do not come free
There comes attached a price
We do not do it blindly
We know we roll the dice
Before you fly into the sky
A sky slow to forgive
Ask "Am I afraid to die?
Or just afraid to Live?"
So if you try, to reason why
When fate can seem unjust
We take these risks not to escape life
But to stop life escaping us

OC619

[EnglishmaninNY]

What shocking news. I met Steve and knew him briefly while undertaking initial PPL training at Anglo American Aviation in San Diego during the summer of 2001. I remember how much he enjoyed showering the newly-solo'd students with a big garbage can full of water. My deepest sympathy for Steve's family and friends. RIP Steve.

[Kirstey]

<edited to keep the peace>

However this bit stays!


One thing I will say. SRG should have more control over such airfields. I've flown from Headcorn from time to time. Baloons going accross the circuit, 3 helecopters going one way, 5 fixed wings going the other, people jumping out of aeroplanes. I've seen a C150 on its take off run with an Extra upside down 50 ft above crossing the runway centreline. Absolute Bedlam.

[floppyjock]

"For the record, the BPA limit for experienced jumpers is 25kts"

Wrong
Its 20kts

Floppy

[Alvin Steele]

From Kirstey's comments, I can see how a visitor to Headcorn could be put off from a couple of experiences of my own.
Although the opening comment on the post was unnecessary, given how many people on this thread knew the unfortunate pilot, of which I am not one.

Back in 98, I decided to do a trip up to Norfolk on a nice July day. Got the plane fired up to find this Eastern European moron......so many times World Aero's champ, hogging the a/g freq to instruct an aero's pupil "Keeep puuuuuullllliiiiiiiiiggggggg.........rooooooollllllllll....."etc......Anyone hoping to get a call in could forget it, I heard one poor guy get berated by control for starting his take-off without calling up (even though I did hear him get a call in)
Eventually I got up and away and when I returned hours later and tuned in.....there he was still hogging the airfield frequency, I mentioned it to a couple of instructors in that careful way you do when you are new to the game, and was assured it wouldnt be happening again, and to my knowledge it hasnt since.
As a newbie at that time, I couldnt believe the same CAA I'd heard about, the same lot who would have you for so much as blowing off on an airfield, could let this happen.

The other incident was the ill judged decision to let a huge flock of microlights fly in one August day from Belgium, again we were stuck on the ground while this motley collection of rag and tube wonders landed (including one which crashed on approach to 11)
Luckily as I returned towards the airfield, the last of them had departed, they can be buggers to spot.
Again, heard that it wouldnt happen on that scale again.

That is 2 experiences out of 10 years which isnt bad.
The majority of the aviators out of Headcorn are a thoroughly professional bunch and there isnt another GA field I'd rather fly from, I bypass Biggin and take an hours drive to go to Headcorn.
The fact that there are so many different activities going on without incident the greater percentage of the time, demonstrates the level of competence.

[Fuji Abound]

The fact that there are so many different activities going on without incident the greater percentage of the time, demonstrates the level of competence.

.. .. .. and that is a fact.

Please dont change Headcorn - there are far far to few of these places left.

[Miserlou]

Kirstey,
Your comments on this of all threads are most inappropriate and appear totally irrelevant.
If you don't enjoy the freedom I suggest you stick to controlled fields. Headcorn is one of the increasingly rare places where one gets to exercise airmanship most thoroughly. And exercisung our freedom is a major factor in why we fly.
I don't know any other system which can handle the volume (or variety) of traffic.
Fear not, SRG know exactly what goes on at Headcorn in that it fulfills all the requirements placed upon it. I'm sure, being so close to London, that Headcorn receives a nuimber of visits from the CAA every weekend; there are probably a few PPL holders at the ministry.

[Loop... Hole]

Steve worked very long and hard to get his qualifications. He never gave up and I'm sure he didn't on that last flight.

My thoughts are for his Mum who lost her husband and then her son in the most tragically short space of time.

Goodbye matey.

[Shoo shoo]

How sad. That is a well timed piece of information & puts the whole sorry business into perspective.

don't bash Headcorn either people - those who did - it is a great place & a much needed breath of fresh air in a corporate dominated world.

[Whirlybird]

OC619,

I just read the verse you quoted. If my death should happen to be related to doing what I love, please can someone make sure it gets put on my gravestone. Meanwhile...who wrote it; what do you know about it?

[OpenCirrus619]

Whirly,

I've searched for more information on a couple of occasions - but found little.

It's called "The Path We Choose".

The only 2 names I've ever found associated with it are:

James Freeman (not the Headcorn one)
Bill Beer


OC619

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Well, the AAIB report is out,

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk

[Bahn-Jeaux]

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/DHC-2%20Mk.III%20Turbo-Beaver,%20OY-JRR%2012-07.pdf


Here to be exact.