Mode S

[A330 Dreamer]

Could some1 give me a brief idea of what the discussions on Mode S transponders is about and why G.A opposes them?

I've been trying to find it on the web, but came across nothing other than how Mode S works.

Thanks

[AlexEvans]

I'm just a humble PPL student so don't shoot me if this is bo*****s.

I'm sure other's will correct me and/or elaborate but I think the argument goes like this:

Commercial traffic fitted with TCAS would like to know the altitude of GA traffic for collision avoidance - and currently they can't if your aircraft is only fitted with a mode A transponder. This is what the aircraft I am learning to fly on is fitted with and my instructor has it turned to standby to avoid alarming the airliners passing overhead at a much higher altitude. I think they want GA aircraft to be fitted with altitude reporting mode S transponders.

I think GA's argument against them is that it is very costly to buy a mode S transponder and that it is unfair to expect GA to pay for it.

[Rod1]

http://www.pfa.org.uk/Copy%20of%20modeS.asp

Read all the link.

Rod1

[Sedbergh]

Mode S in a nutshell
a) will cost a lot, especially in relative terms for "low cost" private pilots both initially and annually
b) will not reduce the risks of GA/GA midair collisions
c) will enable heavy commercial traffic to use shortcuts outside controlled airspace and save money
d) will enable unmanned aerial vehicles to be flown in class G airspace to do whatever UAV's do and make money
e) will avoid the CAA having to turn the whole of the UK into controlled airspace (according to the CAA)
There are a lot of sub-clauses to the above basics
So the GA fraternity (including microlights, gliders & hang gliders) are each being invited to cough up several grand for installation of mode S, plus several hundred per year licence & calibration costs in order to facilitate airlines and UAV operators to make more money.
You could look at the CAA website and other ModeS threads on PPrune for much greater detail

[breakscrew]

Agree with everything Sedbergh said. Also, it will be able to decode all sorts of things about you and your aircraft, so that NATS can start to levy navigation charges on you and the CAA will be able to find you more easily when they want to prosecute you.

[rustle]

Could some1 give me a brief idea of what the discussions on Mode S transponders is about and why G.A opposes them?

I've been trying to find it on the web, but came across nothing other than how Mode S works.

Thanks
The search function on this forum or the FLYER forum (http://forums.flyer.co.uk) would have found many, many threads discussing Mode S transponders.

Conspiracy theories should be in JetBlast, surely :rolleyes:

[IO540]

Unfortunately, despite the apparently genuine original question, this subject arouses so much passion among pilot forum inhabitants that few people are going to post yet again and start yet another long thread...

But let me say just one thing

Also, it will be able to decode all sorts of things about you and your aircraft, so that NATS can start to levy navigation charges

the above is b0110cks. The radar coverage doesn't exist to enable transponder returns to be used for any kind of enroute billing.

Route based billing would in any case be a total nightmare to implement since flight plans are not mandatory for intra-UK VFR and that is just the beginning of what would have to be put in, at a cost which would be far too enormous to ever be recovered from UK GA activity. So let's not do this particular piece of b011ocks all over again... please!

The Elementary Mode S return is a 24-bit number which can be decoded into the tail number e.g. G-ABCD. Apart from the Mode C altitude info, that is all that ATC are going to get from your Mode S transponder.

IF we do, one day, get VFR enroute charges (as I believe they have in Canada) it's likely to be a flat quarterly/annual charge per aircraft, say £50 per qtr or whatever.

[Sir George Cayley]

My understanding is that what an ATCO sees on the scren is the same for Mode C as it will be for un-enhanced Mode S.

So for the average a/c owner bimbling around in the FIR, he or she will have paid o be compliant but gain very little.

Sir George Cayley

[rustle]

My understanding is that what an ATCO sees on the scren is the same for Mode C as it will be for un-enhanced Mode S.

Sir George Cayley

If everything was squawking there would be issues on a radar display.

The benefit of S over C is selective interrogation, so that when the day comes (31/3/2008) that everything is squawking the system copes.

[mm_flynn]

If everything was squawking there would be issues on a radar display.

The benefit of S over C is selective interrogation, so that when the day comes (31/3/2008) that everything is squawking the system copes.

Which is why it makes so much sense to have mode S for all of the new transponder users (microlights, PFA, glider, hang glider, parachutes, etc.) - except for the fact that current technology and cost don't really work for many (any?) of these.

It is also why replacing a perfectly good Mode C with a Mode S is so annoying. And even more annoyingly the dis-information and emotion have people who are equipped for mode A only not spending the extra couple of 100 quid to have mode C, and people with mode C not using it! - all taking away a proven effective system of reducing collision risk and creating some quite scary near misses.

[IO540]

The CAA has handled the whole subject very very badly, with poorly thought out arguments.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

This is also b0ll0x:
CAA will be able to find you more easily when they want to prosecute you.

IF the CAA want to prosecute you (obviously with a good reason), they have to go about it with due regard to the law in the UK. Having a Mode S Txpdr will only let them find the aircraft....

More:
there was some talk today of a clown at CAA wanting parachuters to wear a mode s txponder.......

Would love to find out your source for that gem of onformation...

If parachuting in the open FIR, there is a dedicated squawk, 0033 which tells everyone on radar that you are dropping paras, why on earth would parachutists need a txpdr as well? As I personally know the person who deals with parachuting at the CAA, I can assure you that even he wouldnt come out with such guff.:rolleyes:

Amazes me how some people on this forum spout the first thing they hear at the flying club bar as if its true:ugh:

Mode S is a way to allow the passage of commercial traffic in the open FIR, without new CAS being established. Nav charges etc is just a by product. The GA fraternity in the UK must fight this, as I heard from a very reliable source that a certain person in DAP/AUS at the CAA has said it will happen, no matter what the UK GA community want.:(

[shortstripper]

Groan ... :ugh: I hate this subject ... It keeps coming around again and again. I don't like the idea, the aurguments for mode S don't stack up, but it looks like a done deal. The whole thing leaves me totally depressed as once again it looks like big business has the government in its pocket and the common man looses more of his freedom. Chip, chip, chip ...

SS

[Lucy Lastic]

My understanding is that parachutists were the one group that the CAA were going to exempt from Mode S (after a fair bit of discussion).

There was also a proposal that aircraft that stayed in a circuit and never 'conflicted' with other aerial vehicles would also not need to have Mode S.

But, the CAA originally were of the opinion that all aerial vehicles would have to be Mode S equipped - gliders, paramotors, hang-gliders, microlights, gyroplanes, sport & recreational aircraft etc etc

[IO540]

I am not sure Mode S is a done deal for all of VFR. I don't believe the CAA wants to ground a big chunk of UK VFR GA and therefore I don't think they will (at the last hour) push it through and make people install the transponders and install batteries, etc. That's a significant technical issue - even if on Permit planes it can be done "DIY".

[Rod1]

Mode S is not a done deal for all VFR flight. It is a question of how big the exceptions are or what height you can fly without needing one (6000 ft?) in the open FIR and what part mode c will play.

Still no word on a date for the 2nd consultation…

Rod1

[UAV689]

or what will happen to my humble toy which does'nt have a single volt in the whole airframe to power a transponder!! or room to fit one!! :ugh: