Airport screening ends in uproar

[TR4A]

Airport screening ends in uproar . .2002-02-08. .By Bryan Dean. .The Oklahoman

. .A Southwest Airlines pilot is on leave while the company investigates a disturbance he was involved in at Will Rogers World Airport, a Southwest spokeswoman said. . .An Oklahoma City police report stated that the bag of the pilot, Larry Hargus, was pulled aside Tuesday at a security checkpoint so it could be searched. Hargus became agitated after he waited several minutes and asked screeners twice to search his bag so he could walk to his aircraft, the report stated.

At that point, the report stated, a National Guardsman assigned to airport security asked Hargus for identification. Hargus lifted the identification badge on his shirt but would not remove the card when the guardsman asked, the report stated. The guardsman then grabbed the tag from Hargus' shirt, and Hargus responded by grabbing the identification tag on the guardsman's shirt, the report stated. Police then arrived and mediated the dispute.

The report stated that Hargus told police he was not upset that his bag was being searched, only that other people were being screened after his bag was set down and not searched immediately.

Southwest ground personnel then talked to Hargus, who made a phone call, the report stated. During that phone call, the police report stated, Hargus stepped into the hall and began loudly telling passengers at another gate why the plane was late.

Hargus was not allowed to fly and was escorted from the security area. The report stated that he later returned in street clothes to fly as a passenger, but was told by a Southwest supervisor that he would not be allowed to fly Tuesday.

Southwest spokeswoman Whitney Brewer said the company is investigating the incident.

"The investigation is ongoing, and our pilot is on leave during the investigation," Brewer said.

Karen Carney, spokeswoman for Oklahoma City airports, said airport employees and flight crews are screened like everyone else.

"I think it's important for people to realize that everybody is being screened, and the screeners aren't making exceptions for anyone," Carney said. "For the most part, employees of the airport and the airlines have been accepting of the new regulations. They have a lot at stake."

Brewer said the post-Sept. 11 security measures are not easy on employees, but they are necessary.

"It's an adjustment for all of us here at Southwest Airlines, but all of our employees try to comply as closely as possible to the security regulations. This would be an isolated incident."

[Tripower455]

[quote]Karen Carney, spokeswoman for Oklahoma City airports, said airport employees and flight crews are screened like everyone else.

Carney said. "For the most part, employees of the airport and the airlines have been accepting of the new regulations. They have a lot at stake."

<hr></blockquote>

I love that statement..........She left out a few, very pertinent facts.

It should read:

"I think it's important for people to BELIEVE that everybody is being screened, even if they aren't, and the screeners look like they aren't making exceptions for anyone, except fuelers, provisioners, baggage handlers, mechanics, ops agents, ticket agents, aircraft cleaners, skycaps etc etc etc....." <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Tan]

Tripower455. . . .Excellent reply....Who hires people like Karen Carney, spokeswoman for Oklahoma City airports???. . . .Is there any wonder why we have a security problem when management is a bunch of idiots.....

[Avman]

I'm always thinking who's screening the screeners; who's screening the National Guards; who's screening the airport police etc., etc. Let's face it, there are some weirdos out there and they can come in any guise.

[Huck]

Timothy McVeigh could have just waited and joined the Guard - he could be working in an airport secure area (with a loaded M-16!)

[Ignition Override]

Right Huck, the 'late' Tim, never made it into the Green Berets (and Hitler never drew a decent picture for the Vienna art school).

Is there a way to alert the public about the fact that most airline/airport employees who work around airplanes, on the ground, are never required by many US airports to go through any x-ray machines, or have to undo belts, take off shoes etc?

Sometimes, while in uniform, I tell passengers about this fact, hoping that I'll run into a politician.

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[Check 6]

Here are the e-mail addresses for key people at the Oklahoma City Airports Department:

Luther Trent, Director of Airports . [email protected]

Kevin Lee, Security Manager. [email protected]

Karen Carney, Public Relations. [email protected]

[puddle-jumper]

It's interesting to read that you have the same problems in the U.S.A as I have experienced in the U.K.. .I operated out of the same U.K. Airport for 7 years and was constantly amazed at the fact that engineers/cleaners & other ground staff were allowed to walk through a hanger door (sometimes carrying large tool boxes) and straight onto aircraft without ever walking through security or having there I.D.s checked. Of course the aircrew were always made to walk through security and although I never had a problem with this, at the end of the day Airport Security is only as good as it's weakest link!

If there are any airport managers reading this please do us all a favour - TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT REALLY HAPPENS AT YOUR AIRPORT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW.

[LevelFive]

I went through security in Oklahoma City last week. It took them about ten minutes just to x-ray my two bags. When I asked if there was a problem, they told me, “This is the home of the FAA. They are here all the time. They watch everything we do. We have to be very careful with the flight crews.”

[Ed Winchester]

[quote]I'm not bothered by the fact that I have to get searched and the fueller does not.<hr></blockquote>

Why doesn't this bother you, U3K; I would have thought that this is the crux of the security argument. If you are going to try and provide as tight security as possible, you need to screen evrybody that gets airside.

[quote]I am bothered by the fact that a pilot could be treated in the manner listed above by a national guardsman who is on a massive ego trip because now he can dress up and play soldier and carry his gun to the airport and look cool interrogating people. These are the same guys who never finished second level comprehensive school and who chose the army as a career!<hr></blockquote>

What a ridiculously pompous and arrogant outlook on life. Get a grip.

[Sheila]

Seems to me that the way to solve this situation is for the crews to do EXACTLY what security says even it it takes a while. Then when the flight is delayed or you miss a deadhead the reason should be accurately given as the crew was delayed at security. . .Only when the planes start getting delayed will attention be given to this problem.. .Sheila :)

[flyblue]

Ed Winchester,. .I totally agree that everyone MUST be checked. But unfortunately, and especially in the US I realised that those checks are carried out in the dumbest way and by obviously untrained people. (Let's not mention their manners, or we should mention the manners of the immigration officers as well <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ) . .On September the 17th in JFK our crew were asked if we had any tools. Subsequently we were confiscated corkscrews, tweezers, nail clippers, the tiny scissors (1.5 cm blades and round ended) we use for unsealing and the tool we use to seal with lead seals (looks more or less like a nutcracker). Too bad that some of us went through the screening with more tools they had forgot about, like a 15 cm scissor, nail scissors, metallic nailfiles etc, with not a blink from the "security" officers.. .In MIA we queued for 1.5 hour in October (average pax waiting time 2 to 3 hours) to have our PENCIL SHARPENERS confiscated. I mean the plastic ones with virtually no blade. . .I don't think those checks are as efficient as they COULD be. It seems to me that they hastily made up some rule to give the impression that something was being made. But obviously, a real professional was not consulted because there is no reason for silly rules when you could have clever rules for the same price.. .As a crew member, I have no objection on being searched, even if I consider it quite silly to turn inside out like used socks the pilots when they could achieve anything they want by just sitting at their place without having to force their way to the cockpit.. .And for what is of the cabin, it is a real masterpiece to have those ridiculous knifes removed and not the FORKS. If I had ever to spit someone I'd do it with a fork. I mean, did they HAVE A LOOK at the dumb forks and knives before making a decision? And if I wanted to knock out the Captain, do you think I would use a TWEEZER or a GLASS wine bottle? . .I already can see some objection coming for writing this here. But folks, If I could figure it out, don't worry, terrorists did before me, I am not revealing any secret aviation policy.. .The general impression I have is that the Security "brains" are wasting time running behind the terrorists; and that the terrorists are way ahead. After 11/9 we were searched for blades, now they sniff our pumps. I hope no terrorist will come out with the idea of stuffing his underpants with T4, or we are going to get through the nastiest checks <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> ...

[MPH]

With the criteria posted by some of the above members, I wonder if anyone knows or has thought about; who checks the security personnel? Am I to asume that they ( the security people) are above all suspicion. And that we, as flight crew's seem to be under constant suspicion? I mean, honestly, are the airlines also being investigated? Are the airlines to be doubted in the way they carry out their security measures? As far as I know, all airline personnel are constantly checked on an internal bases. They ( the airlines) also have a data base of all their flying and non flying employees. That's the whole point of issuing an I.D card!. .The INS, for one, have copies (formats) of practically every airlines ID card, that operates in and out of the USA.. .I go back to a previous posting; there must be a way of establishing some sort of a data base? . .I just hope that time and experience, will result in the elabration of a better system. I also hope that the pilots unions can intervene and help the various agencies in sorting this mess.

[Doctor Cruces]

Flyblue,

Dead on.

Doc C.

[Huck]

Shiela's right - as long as the trains run on time, who cares? Now, the day every pilot shows up 45 minutes prior (as per Standard Practice), waits patiently at the end of the longest passenger line, and does not hurry in any way, thus causing every flight to be late - THEN things will change....

[Ignition Override]

The US FAA's primary concern is how the US public PERCEIVES (is fooled by) their so-called interest in safety (due to the Valuejet crash, now their primary mandate), and how the public gives its feedback to our Congress.

Certain folks in various ranks of the US FAA's "leadership" (pardon my use of this word) have as their main objective, other than stabbing each other in the back, no pun intended (while ruthlessly clawing their way up to higher GS/pay grades) levels, is to insist on proper documentation, no matter how little connection there often is between so much documentation and the operational realities of airlines and airports.

According to a former pilot at Kiwi Airlines (which consisted of many highly-experienced, former Eastern pilots etc, who each invested many thousands of their own money [maybe retirment], in order to finance/create Kiwi's very existence), the only one who I have known, Kiwi was "allegedly" shutdown after their FAA inspector (typically, he seems to have had no real airline experience) noticed that there were no printed boxes on the 'Flightcrew Training' forms for one event: windshear training-does this ring a tiny bell?

After noting that there were checkmarks o u t s i d e the pre-printed boxes on each training form, this was allegedly described as either incomplete, fraudulent or falsified documentation etc, and used as justification to shutdown a very good small airline (small risk for the all-powerful FAA), in order to show the American public, via our media, that the FAA really was doing its job, following the Valuejet crash.

. .Individual kooks and terrorists are not our only enemies in the US airline business, and never have been the only dangers. Whether this can be connected in anyone else's mind to our security situation is secondary. Regarding our citizens' sense of travel safety, the gigantic egos (god-complexes) and political clubbing characteristic of so much of our own government results in wildly distorted, comlpetely inaccurate impressions in the minds of the US public.

I'm well aware that the vast majority are hard-working, helpful employees who are with the FAA's Air Carrier, Certification, and Security Branches etc, and do excellent work, not to mention the huge Air Traffic Control system.

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[Ed Winchester]

Flyblue,

I agree with you 100%. The security checks appear to be there for 'appearances sake', are illogical at best, and need to be changed. I just had a problem with the needless abuse of the National Guard, which was peurile and uncalled for (not because I am in the military, either!).

[Jackonicko]

Seems as though another victim MAY be a US Airways pilot, handcuffed at Philly. Just received the following E-mail:

"Date: . . Sun, 10 Feb 2002

From: . . Budd D******* . .&lt;&gt; . .

Folks, . .One of aviation's true friends and contributors needs help. He needs us to send our opinions to those in control and . .let them know how we feel about what is happening to him.

I'll make this brief: Elwood "Woody" Menear, a Captain for U. S. Airways made the mistake of explaining (in . .conversational tones, according to witnesses) to a supervisor who challenged him at a security check point in . .Philadelphia that it was silly to hand search airline pilots, once they were proven to be who they claimed to be.

His point was that the airline pilots already had control of the airplane and whether they were carrying tweezers or . .not was a moot point.

This was a true and obvious statement, but the young security person decided it was a threat and Woody was lead . .away in handcuffs.

The FBI has yet to file charges, although they have three years in which to do so.

At this point Woody is suspended and expected to be fired by U. S. Airways, as they try to run from possible . .public response to one of their pilots being pictured on the news in handcuffs.

"Unintended consequences" is the phrase that best suits this situation. Yes, increased security measure are . .important. No, they should not be allowed to get out of hand.

The best thing we can do for Woody is to let U.S. Airways know that we think they've let the pendulum swing too . .far the wrong direction. Menear is well known within aviation as a pilot and an aircraft builder and restorer. He is . .also the kind of person you want in the cockpit when the chips are down. We can't let him suffer because of a . .security person who is having a bad day.

Send something to the effect of:

"I feel U. S. Airways should let the facts of the Captain Elwood Menear situation speak for themselves and let . .Captain Menear continue flying for the airline, which is in the best interest of both U.S. Airways and the flying . .public."

The important names and e-mail addresses are listed below.

I apologize to those who received this inadvertently, but I had no way of trimming my address book down. . .

Budd D*******

If you find this as important as I do, please forward it to everyone on your mailing list. . .

Mailing address: . .JOHN C. HONOR, VP HUMAN RESOURCES . .US AIRWAYS CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS . .2345 CRYSTAL DRIVE . .ARLINGTON VA 22227 . .703-872-7000 (PHONE) . [email protected] . . . .

CHAIRMAN AND CEO . .STEPHEN WOLF . .PH ? 703-872-7096 (SECRETARY) . .FAX ? 703-872-5252 . .E-MAIL: [email protected] &lt;[email protected]&gt;

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC RELATIONS . .DAVID CASTELVETER . .FAX ? 703-872-5134 . .E-MAIL: [email protected] . .

CAPTAIN DON MATTHEWS . .REGIONAL DIRECTOR FLYING-PHL . .US AIRWAYS INC . .PHILADELPHIA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT . .PHILADELPHIA PA 19153 . .FAX ? 610-362-7909 . [email protected]

FAXED LETTERS ARE PREFERRED, HOWEVER, EITHER IS GREATLY APPRECIATED. . .

PLEASE CC: [email protected]"

[DwainCleana]

Airport Security!!! It is obvious to the majority of us that that have airports as our work place that the security sought for the general public's comfort is unobtainable. The authorities MUST be aware of this or are they so far down the evolutionary chain, yet we give them credit for their efforts out of pity.. . It may be possible to make a city office or bank with one or two doors almost completely secure from walk in intruders but what we're talking about is something 5 miles long and 5 miles wide. I've been around airports all my long working life from an airport employee to one who puts up with the hassles so that I can fly to the other side of the globe to endure someone else's brand of "total security".. . I have seen security evolve from nil, when I could happily park my car near a hanger step over the fence and walk unchallenged across the apron to the Control Tower, to today’s farce. Recently I've spent many hours trying to stay awake on a trans-Pacific flights discussing how ”ïf we were terrorists" could we breach the system. Every flight yields a new way. Terrorists I am sure spend many hours in a dark cave doing the same but not for just amusement. If we had National Guardsmen shoulder to shoulder around the perimeter it still would not be completely secure for reasons other contributors have made clear . .Whilst the majority may happily accept the inconveniences of airport "Security", I do not happily accept it because I have to endure it on a daily basis and I am aware that it is a waste of my time. Without knowing the full details I tend to sympathise with the unfortunate Southwest Airlines Pilot. How many days of your life have you wasted on security being searched and questioned when as a pilot the weapon is in your “hands”.. . Do we want to progress to strip searches and flying in aircraft with cabins devoid of breakable or removable objects which could potentially be used as weapons with cabin trim riveted to the fuselage and the coffee maker only producing cold coffee.. Where an armed security officer sits with us in the cockpit incase we may ourselves endanger our aircraft. Of course he would be suitably trained by the authorities to fly the plane after he had to shoot the pilots.. .Airport security for the most part does a good job in restricting the lunatics ( mentally challenged for PC lovers) who would otherwise board our aircraft. Keeping out professional terrorists? No way!. .What about ID cards? How often do you check every ID card on everyone boarding your aircraft during a turn around and could you recognise a forged or altered ID.. . I remember them being introduced to make airports secure. In my opinion their true value is to get a hotel or hire car discount and in some parts of the world a free entry to a night club with the girls. Either we again restore the value to an ID card so that we may have quick and frustration free entry to our work place or hand them out like credit cards to the general public, as at present they can be a liability trying to make the "security passport", secure. Has anyone ever lost an ID card? . .Until the security experts understand how airports work, talk to people who work there and political input is minimised, airport security will be no more than window dressing , The politicians should spend their time solving the root cause of why one group of people want to cause so much harm to other groups. Now if I were a Palestinian…………

Dwaincleana

[411A]

Very well put, DwainCleana.. .Wonder when John Q Public will wake up to the fact that there is no "perfect" security? Only when flight crew start delaying flights due to very prolonged security checks will the airline industry wake up and provide proper aircrew channels....and start screening ground personnel which now have unhindered access to aircraft.

Don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen.

[MPH]

So, what's the solution? No ID cards, no securtity checks, etc. Their is no doubt that the system has it's flaws. Therefore the existing sytem has to be fine tuned and adapted to be more practical. As some of the sujest, it's imposible to make these security checks full proof. But what's intolerable, is that flight crew's are not given the respect and treatment that they deserve. We are after all going to work and also have to do security checks, onboard our aircraft. It's time to sit down with the competent authorities and try to solve this conflict.

[IcePack]

Have you ever tried to take a security chaps name!. .Seems that could be an arrestable offence.. .I was just reporting a lapse of security a few years ago. Nothing actually happened as I managed (JUST) to keep cool. Finally managed to get to speak to the security manager of the Airport who I believe suspended the individual who was not doing his job. The one who wouldn't supply his name.. .Somehow I believe all this agro with flt crews is not doing security OR flight crews any good. Maybe a sensible court ruling will clear the air.

[LevelFive]

Airport police in SLC detained a Southwest captain on the ramp after he showed his identification. He was doing a preflight inspection of the aircraft. It is ridiculous. We can’t do our jobs like this. Something has to change. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Tripower455]

Right on L-5. What are we going to do about it!

For anyone with strong feelings on this issue, the deadline for commentary to the DOT is 2/14/02.

Docket ID number - FAA 2001-111229 . .Document Title - "Firearms, Less-than-Lethal Weapons and Emergency Services on Commercial Air Flights."

. .<a href="http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/BlankDSS.asp" target="_blank">Fill out the comment form on arming pilots</a>

[Tan]

Hopefully someone in the press is starting to pay attention.....This insanity has to stop.

<a href="http://www.ticked.com/cheapcharlie/2002/chcrew.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ticked.com/cheapcharlie/2002/chcrew.htm</a>

[MPH]

Finally, as you say, people will start to notice the impractical and illogical way flight crew's are being screened and checked. At least this posting, would have fulfilled it's purpose! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[recceguy]

I remember similar stories in my Air Force 15 years ago. Because of a perceived threat of soviet origin, very tight security procedures had been enforced for years.

OK for the idea, but the result was so-called "AF commandos" always on the rampage, uneducated low-extraction guys being given the free opportunity to harass higher-ranking officers, fighter pilots with all their shining gear..... so they took this opportunity to extract a revenge from their low conditions, and life was miserable quite often.. .In case of any incident, it was always the fault of the pilot, not of the "commando" (as a dog biting a pilot coming back from his aircraft in the dark, after an exhausting night-flight)

So all those stories nowadays in the airlines remind me of my youth in the AF : obviously those gentlemen will go for aircrew first.

It seems that today in Heathrow, security was too busy screening aircrew...

Fly safe

[LevelFive]

T455, I think a nation wide one-day suspension of service in protest of the treatment we are receiving would be a good start.

Our union has already made the recommendation that flight crews stay together at security. No one leaves until we all get through. It has become so bad; the problems are so numerous, that we need to have witnesses in this “us against them” battle.

If the police or NG detains you after you showed proper identification, only give them your name rank and employee number. Ask for a lawyer immediately. Say nothing else. We still have our Miranda rights.

If you are treated in such a way as to cause you emotional distress, abused, arrested, detained, or hassled, wait until you feel better before operating an aircraft. Take an hour or two or as long as it takes to calm down. Go home if you feel you cannot concentrate on the job of flying. Be safe.

Stick together and support your coworkers, the other pilots and flight attendants. Do not expect any help from the “trusted employees”. They seem to think that just because they can come in the backdoor, without going through security, they are somehow better than us. We are seeing them become just as bad as the security people. They have turned against pilots and flight attendants on numerous occasions.

Our management wants us to put on a show to make the public feel better. It is backfiring in their face. The show at security is turning into a three-ring-circus. The flying public sees how ridiculous it is. I hear them say how stupid it is for flight crews to be searched every day.

In recent poles here in the US the majority wanted pilots to be armed. They want us to protect them and keep them safe even if it means using deadly force. But our management doesn’t want us to be armed. When a man recently tried to force his way into the cockpit a pilot hit him with the fire axe. The pubic loved it. They were glad the pilot had a weapon and that he used it. That’s what they want to see. They want us to part of the solution. They want us to be the final level of security.

Airports can never be made 100% secure. The airport robbery in England proves that. And when they say they have better security than we do here in the US, I have no reason not to believe them. So where does that leave us? I’ll tell you where. We now have the greatest show on earth. The multi-billion-dollar security show.

[spinproof]

That's right Huck, and don't forget to taxi slow and take your lunch break when possible and..and..sorry I went commando there for a sec!

[LevelFive]

Trip455, I hear Southwest is trying to fire Larry. What do you think we should do about it? <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Tan]

There is a growing consensus, now among the moderate voices, that the pilot's unions should shut down the North American System for 24 hours in order to get their attention...IMHO I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.

[PETIGRAM]

"Lets roll"

[Tripower455]

[quote]Trip455, I hear Southwest is trying to fire Larry. What do you think we should do about it?<hr></blockquote>

Lets ALL write letters to the AZ republic <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

. .He's getting fired for asking WHY it was taking so long to do an unnecessary bag search? Or was it for asking to see the scarecrow's ID?

We can't have anyone spoiling the show now, can we?

[B Sousa]

I really feel for the two pilots mentioned in this thread, as Im sure they will get lost in the shuffle. Heres hoping the ALPA is as strong as the dues they collect. . .Its really scary to know we are at the last notch and protected by the National Guard. They have gone out of their way in the last few years to put uniforms on otherwise homless folks with little education and other questionable standards. As to the Full Time Guard, most of those folks ended up there, because they could'nt find gainful employment in other sectors. We are really in deep s-h-i-t.

[gwallerich]

Agent: "Has anyone placed anything in your luggage without your knowledge?"

Passenger: "If it was without my knowledge, how would I know?"

Agent: "That's why we ask!"

[GeofJ]

Lets not bash the National Guard because we are pissed at the lack of leadership that put them in an untenable position - of course security is a joke - all of us frequent flyer pax have been saying that, the flight crews have been saying it, only the people that can change the system are not listening. As a former member of th Nat'l Guard I can say that many members are committed professionals who volunteer their time far beyond the requirements of their "part time job". They should not be guarding our airports because that is not what they are trained for and they apparently have been given little authority - that does not mean that they are incompetent, homeless, lazy or otherwise less than average.

[Tan]

I’m wondering why the general news media, with the notable exception of a few, have not taken up the security debate. You would have thought that such a hot aviation subject would be generating loads of reporting.

Have the news media being muzzled? Of course only as a security measure, the general public have to be protected you know…

[spinproof]

I am sure that the SOUTHWEST pilot leadership will come to the aid of their brother!!! They may not be ALPA but I know that no pilot group can let this B S go on!!

If not, we need to get this to FOX NEWS fast!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[LevelFive]

spinproof,

Our union leadership is working on it.

It is very disappointing for us to see the company management attack our own people this way.

The company hates any negative publicity. If a pilot talks to the media he/she can be fired even if it is off the record. A call to Fox news would be risking a career.

[B Sousa]

Biz SLF.......BTDT also...... If you've been there, you know exactly of the ones Im speaking of, and I agree they are put in a precarious position with no training and big guns. A very expensive Goat-Rope for the taxpayer.

[Tan]

Gentlemen

Has anyone advanced the “safety” factor into this security fiasco? A flight crew upset by the treatment that they have just received from security does not make for a very safe flight. We all know that things go wrong and s**t happens..

The Airlines hate negative publicity this should qualify.

[Tripower455]

[quote]Gentlemen. .Has anyone advanced the “safety” factor into this security fiasco? A flight crew upset by the treatment that they have just received from security does not make for a very safe flight. We all know that things go wrong and s**t happens..

The Airlines hate negative publicity this should qualify. .<hr></blockquote>

. .A large, TX based airline recently had a pilot that wrote a letter to this effect, and he was sent for psychological evaluation. The letter was very accurate and not a rant, and the writer asked the RHETORICAL question "Do you really want an angry pilot flying your plane?" (paraphrased). Some of the wording he used to describe the "security measures" in place "concerned" some management types (according to the after incident spin control) about his mental well being. Word is that the top management wanted him fired, even though he never mentioned which airline he worked for.

This is wht we are up against, and unless we all unify on this issue, we will be picked off one by one.........

[picollo]

heres an incident which shows what kind of people are responsible for security.. .I was jumpseating and they would not let me on the plane with out verifying my Drivers license .I was in uniform at that point and had a chicago ohare ID and a Denver ID!!!!!

It did not do me good to explain to them that it was easier to get a drivers license than to get an airport ID.

[Iron City]

Question has been asked of why there is no debate on aviation security in the media. There has been lots of ink spilt since 9/11/01 on aviation security, but not much informed, knowledgeable or rational debate in the mainstream media. Not sure why but have afew guesses: 1. certain people in powerful places would like the vast mass of people to act like good sheep and just do what they are told, trust their leaders who will take care of everything. 2. the mainstream media is more interested in pushing things that they can make money off of and not in an informed, knowledgable or rational debate. 3. aviation security is nice but there are other bigger fish to fry in counter terrorism. It just happened that airplanes were the unfortunate weapons this time. Next time it could be car bomb, truck bomb, freight containers, a LNG tanker, you name it. If you think aviation security is a joke look at other modes of transportation and communications and get afraid, get very afraid if you have a paranoid streak.

[Winged Princess]

concerning the USAir pilot...It has been reported by ALPA that they are doing everything in their power to help him. Writing USAir will not do a thing. They have trouble keeping afloat!!

[GlueBall]

Thirty years from now people will look back and say: "Gee, what was that all about." <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[englishal]

Had my shoes x-rayed 3 times in the past weeks, maybe the'll start glowing soon !

[spinproof]

OK Levelfive I'm hep...guess it doesn't matter if you drop your ID and Company name tags someone will finger you , right! <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> I know Noooothing!

[bluecrane]

The uniform and the company ID obviously do not serve any purpose anymore, quite the contrary. I think I will show up in my bluejeans and a sweater next time ... . .Seriously: What is taking ALPA so long?

[spinproof]

Hey Bluecrane, ALPA and long???..."Why we have to protect our phony baloney jobs"...organizations known by acronyms flock together!!!!...dont ya know! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Tan]

Hey Folks

There is a lot of chatter on the Canadian aviation Web sites about a possible June 1 withdrawal of Pilot services. We all know about the snowball effect if this idea ever gets off the ground. Hopefully this action will involve the world’s pilots’ and force governments to do a rethink on their insane aircrew security policy.

It could happen...

[neil armstrong]

Luckly being a freightdog in Europe keeps me away from most of the hassle.. .At most of the places we go to you dont get checked at all (on the dark side of the airport).. .On my last holiday trip to the USA i was confronted by the madness of security at some of yalls airports.. .I wouldnt want to work in that environment.. .What can be done??

Neil

[neil armstrong]

pitcairn relax.. .It's everywhere the same if you go to the small airports at the outskirts of the world life is the same as 10 years ago.. .But as you know the big airports have to follow the trent.. .and i think everybody will agree with me that the small airports are just as safe as the big one's!!

Neil

[Huck]

I'm afraid I must disagree. To get to my freighter I now get patted down and wanded; we also have armed guards around the aircraft and must do a security sweep of the entire aircraft every departure. Not to mention our greatly reduced jumpseat access....

[pdashley]

Huck - Is your freighter Air Force One????. :)

[Huck]

Nope just hauling flowers out of Bogota. Must admit, being patted down by a doe-eyed twenty-something Columbian girl in a uniform isn't exactly a hardship....

[Latte tester]

I recently had the pleasure of watching stupidity at it's finest in EGLL. Going through VIP screening, in uniform with my bags, enroute to a GLEX parked on the ramp. I was told that my baby Swiss Army knife was to be taken off the aircraft key chain and placed in my checked baggage...hmm let's see, where exactly can this bag be placed so no one can get at it??? When I politely told the security 'person' that this is a business jet without a lower cargo hold, he and she started getting a bit defensive. I decided to place my 'weapon' in my bag and get on with it.. .Do these people really understand anything?. .I'm sure glad I didn't have a mad moment at FL450 and try to hijack myself, what a dilema that would have been - where to go??????

Latte time, no foam please :) :)

[PaperTiger]

Southwest suspended Hargis for six weeks without pay.

Unbelieveable ! And what did the guardsman get ?. .Promotion ? Combat medal ?

[flyblue]

Latte tester, what happened to me yesterday does the pair for stupidity at its finest with your security "person".. .Got off my "on duty" flight and proceeded to my commuting flight. There the "security person" told me I would have to leave my unsealing tool (that wouldn't puncture a balloon <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ).. .I brought to her attention that I was getting off a flight where I actually USED my tool (still in uniform) but she didn't care. What the heck, I could go insane and hijack the plane on my way home, doh!!!. .When I disembarked the crew gave me my tool back with a meaningful rolleyes... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[TAT Probe]

One thing seems to have been overlooked by those contributing to this thread. I fly for an Arab airline, and regularly fly freighters in and out of JFK. Even though we go through the Cargo side, we have the full security aggro. The pilots on the passenger flights get the full treatment as well at the passenger terminal.

We don't get treated any differently, it seems, than the other contributors to this topic have been, but I do realise that the US government is absolutely paranoid about Al Qaeda sympathisers working as pilots within airlines (especially ours!). This is extremely unlikely, but they feel that they have to give the idea some credence.

So, for the sake of political correctness, and to avoid the dreaded "profiling" they treat all pilots the same, irrespective of airline or nationality. To do otherwise would provoke serious diplomatic reactions.

So, I think we need to remember that American paranoia in respect of possible infiltration of our profession is the root cause of this. Of course, an Al Qaeda pilot could do his stuff and still be clean at a security check!

Out of JFK, they won't even let our company take off on 31L! That points towards downtown Manhatten, so we are forced to takeoff on 22R, or 04L, what we laughingly refer to as an "Al Qaeda Departure, Bin Ladin Climb"!

[max_cont]

TAT, how does being subjected to the stupidity at “security”, prevent a terrorist who IS a pilot and working as a sleeper from flying the airplane into the building of their choice?

Someone has already pointed out, we could all go through security butt naked and still crash the airplane into the Whitehouse or any other target.

[flyblue]

I agree Max cont, and same is for F/A. We don't need to force our way to the F/D and would have many ways I won't enumerate here to get rid of the pilots.. .But, if I could agree being searched, why treat us like criminals, and what's more, why not making the search effective for REAL dangerous goods and not for harmless tools just to fool the public?

PS Max, I'd like to see that one...you know...

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>

[Check 6]

Here is the training plan for the U.S. federally employed pax screeners:

<a href="http://www.dot.gov/affairs/Training%20Plan.htm#_Toc535913951" target="_blank">http://www.dot.gov/affairs/Training%20Plan.htm#_Toc535913951</a>

[Capt PPRuNe]

Looks like they've forgotten about the crews again! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Seems that the people that take the brunt of anyone getting on board with cruel intentions, the cabin crew and the pilots, are to be classed as just regular members of the public. Who is responsible for the planning of all this?

[quote]There are also a range of passengers who have special needs. Screeners will receive specific instruction on recognizing these needs, which can include, but are not limited to, the following:. . Passengers with disabilities;. . Diplomats, senior officials, Secret Service protectees;. . Armed law enforcement officers;. . Prisoners;. . Those with specific language needs (some training can be geographically targeted);. . National origin/cultural/religious requirements.<hr></blockquote>

[Few Cloudy]

It's the bleeding hearts Danny. By the way, what are your special needs?...

[Gomer]

Having now been "randomly selected for additional screening" 18 times in a row, the last, 10 minutes after I parked my 64000 kilo jet at the gate, I will agree that the current USA system is a joke. After 4 seasons in the UK, I much prefer that system, while not perfect, at least accomplishes the job without making pilots feel like criminals. ( everyone in front of me and behind me in the random line today were crewmembers).

[ironbutt57]

Kinda funny the only people so found to have criminal backgrounds are the screeners, the same ones given the authority to treat crews like criminals....mmmmmm... <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[IcePack]

Hav'nt you realized these screeners are all wannabees and so they just get a kick out of hasseling crew. Human nature I'm afraid.

[Pegasus77]

Biggest joke so far didn't happen in the US, but in Germany... After parking our 74000kg jet (hah!) late at night, capt and I were checked on our ATPL, to check if it was real pilots going to their crewhotel. To make it even more stupid, we were the only airplane on the tarmac, and the securitypeoples could see us parking and getting out of the aircraft... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[TAT Probe]

max_cont, you wrote:. .TAT, how does being subjected to the stupidity at “security”, prevent a terrorist who IS a pilot and working as a sleeper from flying the airplane into the building of their choice?

That was exactly my point of my post. Nothing can really effectively guard against infiltration, or just plain suicidal tendencies (Egyptair). Apart from the somewhat ridiculous provision of special departures for certain airlines, the only defence is the airline itself, and you can bet that ALL companies are looking very closely at everyone flying for them, Pilots and Cabin, right now.

Can you imagine what an "insider" suicide would do for an Airline's bottom line?

[B Sousa]

As a lowly Helicopter Driver doing meanial tasks part 135, its so good to hear the Crews of Heavy Iron talking about the Security (or lack thereof).. .I call it "Bandaid Bullshi*".. Im just hoping someday you guys will get it together and just sit down at the gates everywhere in the states at the same time and say enough...A little common sense here or we are not flying...ALPA, Hello, anybody home??. .My two cents.

[Pax101]

As a moderately-frequent-flyer I just can't hold back on this one...

I've just flicked through the whole thread from start to finish (!) and I think you pros out there deserve to know that I, and most other pax I speak to, are well and truly on your side.

You see, every time I join you as a pax, I am placing my trust in a whole bunch of people. You - the pros in the front office, cabin crew, controllers, fuellers, maintenance engineers, ... you get the picture. And when my family flies as well, often without me, I'm placing even more trust in that exact same list of people. And I know that ultimately you are placing your trust in the same list of people.

We see the "front of house" security every time we fly, and we frequently see the crews running through the same checks. Now, while I for one do appreciate the value of these checks in keeping the occasional spur of the moment lunatic out of the seat next to me, I am under no illusion about their ability to keep out an intelligent, forward-thinking person intent on causing trouble.

Being brutally honest, what worries me more seems to be the same thing that worries everyone else who's posted so far - is the same level of security being enforced for everyone on that list? As far as I can tell they all have the potential to cause some very unpleasant situations.

Please don't think I am implying any less respect for anyone on the "Trust List" - I think we all realise that every single one plays a part in getting me safely from A to B (preferably not via C!) on time and in comfort.

What I am implying is that the enforcement of security, presumably in a manner deemed appropriate by the ... responsible ... authorities, almost certainly leaves a lot to be desired.

I mean, confiscating nail clippers. Honestly. I've done myself more damage with my own fist than I ever have with a pair of nail clippers! (Seriously - once gave myself a real shiner whilst trying to swat a mozzy on my cheek)

So, next time you pros find yourself getting frustrated going through a particularly dumb check, take a look around at the pax around you. I am willing to bet that most of them are also getting very frustrated on your behalf (if they've noticed) - I know I would be.

As for the SouthWest incidents - those pilots have my sympathy (letter on its way to SW). They are both presumably responsible professionals who have been unfortunate enough to get caught in a media-hyped circus. Would I still want either of them flying me or my family after the incidents described? Absolutely! What has bappened that changes anything with regard to their skill in the seat?

Only one comment - from a UK guy hit hard by the recent rail strikes - my sympathy was with the railway staff during the first one. Now, a number of strikes later (lost count - probably 5 or 6) I'm afraid that has changed. So, do you have my sympathy enough to make a point by working to rule - and incurring the associated delays? Absolutely. Will it cause me inconvenience? Quite possibly, but if I know in advance and it's short-lasting then not much. Will I get really upset if it goes on too long, too often, or without just cause? Very definitely. Beware.

Well, that's about it from me. Let's all just home that common sense starts to prevail at some level in the near future. Hope...

Bye.

BTW - thanks a lot to all the pilots out there who've put up with me on many occasions in the past, and never once looked frustrated or irritated. I had a habit of coming up-front for some intelligent conversation and a good dose of humour, especially during the tedious long-hauls. No more of that unfortunately. But thanks for the memories!

[dewort]

Hi all,. .BIN perusin' with interest this thread, and have experienced first hand (shoes in hand, belt, jacket, cap, pens & ID removed) these idiotic security checks in JFK, MIA & IAD. I think most points have BIN covered in this thread, however a point was made earlier. In fact it was more of a question. Why hasn't the mainstream media picked up on this yet?

There was one perceptive soul who did, in fact, touch on the reason; that there are those in power who want the masses to be controlled and sheep-like. In paying attention to the various forms of news sources available on both TV and internet, you will notice that there are definate erosions in how things used to be, in the USA at any rate.. .-No more Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA).. .-Systems being set up to monitor the internet and telephone lines. (mass spying on the general public). .-Compulsory rubella vaccinations in Washington DC for children. (this vaccine has BIN shown to cause autism in children) failure to do so can result in fines or JAILTIME for the parents!!!

The list goes on.

Sounds paranoid right? But this is actually happening. All in the name of persuing terrorism, the USA's Bill Of Rights is slowly being dismantled. Individuals who step out of the flock will be stamped on...Vewwy woughly indeed.

We need to be unified! I think the June 1st shutdown is a good beginning.

Forget individual Assocs. Maybe a concerted show under the auspices of IFALPA may have even greater impact.

For those real conspiracy theorists, here are a couple of interesting websites:

-nomorefakenews.com. .-davidicke.com

Of course, ya gotta put the http etc before those titles. Some of the stuff seems over the top. But a lot of it sure makes you go Hmmmmmmmm <a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/icons/icon6.gif" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/icons/icon6.gif</a>

. .Trinidude

[dewort]

Oops,. .Sorry 'bout my choice of icon. Ahm experiencing finger trouble, but I 'tink I'm getting the hang of it now. . .Trinidude

[Iron City]

Sorry some people are going a little far out for the conspiracy theories etc.

Mainstream media wants to get it's column inches filled as easily and painlessly as possible with material that will sell the mags/newspapers/etc. If recycled press releases from the pop star/movie/actor/politician/activist group/etc that is the standard then that is what you will get. In many cases the trade press is no better by providing recycled press releases that would peg the average human's "B.S meter".

If the aviation operations professionals (crew, tech, dispatch etc) think that the aviation professionals on the govt. side are in charge of aviation security they are mistaken. The requirements are being driven politically and by people without any particular knowledge of aviation with an eye to the great public. This is no different than the policy drivers that got NATS partially privatized, certain aircraft and airlines certified that strictly speaking shouldn't have been etc, so it should not be a big suprise, should it?

Sympathize with the professionals who have to put up with the mickey mouse from the security officers. Security people on the pointy end have not historically been given much in the line of training (possibly because of the 300-400% turnover rate?) and there is very little for them to hang their hats on in exercising judgement, with lots of second guessing etc and draconian penalties for violating the procedures.

Hopefully the security operations will become more professional and will be allowed to be run by professionals without "help" from the politicians and other opportunists. Wouldn't it be great for the pilots to pick a day to stop work to call attention to the fact that they are being security screeed to get to the office every day? Just like the passengers. Some of whom have more security clearance that any policeman will ever get? No, all in all do not think it would be good for the pilot profession to do something like train drivers or truck drivers. What would help is the unions and companies talking to the people in power that are telling the aviation community what to do. Do this at all levels (airport managers, local and national and international) and things could be changed over the medium-long term to make the security less onerous. Then the resources could be put into checking the cleaners, garbage collecters and other with access to aircraft and ramp areas. Then maybe millions in currency wouldn't be walked off with from the wonderful higher security euroports (sorry, couldn't resist that)

[jetjackel]

"Many" years ago pilots were allowed to bypass security check points by showing their ID's, just ask a few Southwest pilots who were caught with handguns that they had been carrying for years in their fligh bags, and forgot to remove them when it was required to go through the metal detectors and X-ray machines. I flew with one pilot who superimposed a picture of his rearend on his ID and used it successfully for several months out of SFO. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that pilots have the only good job in the entire aviation industry. This has created a lot of jealousy and resentment from the other workers (just remember the times you have been screwed over by a gate agent when traveling non-rev, only because he/she could). The current humiliations are "eye candy" for the general public and pilots become suseptable to intimidating and annoying actions, now by the security people also. Everyone needs to keep their cool and keep their mouths shut. The consequences can be devastating if one decides to express his/her opinion while being subjected to the current himiliations at security stations. The security measure being taken will never be efficient until "profiling" is used to pin point probable security risks. In the US this is considered discrimiation and is still being blocked, at least officially. The "shoe bomber" was questioned and released the day before he boarded the JFK flight and attempted to blow it up. From his appearance, mannerisms and the other passengers complaints, he should have never been allowed to board any airplane (oneway ticket, paid in cash and no luggage). Profiling would have certainly helped prevent the incident.. .When you are standing in public, in uniform, and being subjected to the latest security humiliations just keep the thought of being the guy who wears the "coolest hat" and gets to "strap on the jet" when you complete the security check. This might help you to be cool, stay out of trouble and keep your job. This isn't the time to be "bucking the system", its time to let time and sanity run its course and things will improve. They have to as its not working now.

Be cool.....you....be cool.

[GrandPrix]

It's not "security". .It's "suckurity"

[411A]

Gosh niteflyer, you forgot the real biggie....flouride in drinking water...now there's a conspiracy that has been going on for years... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Chimbu chuckles]

God I feel lucky!

I fly a Bizjet all over Asia, in and out of Muslim and Communist Countries all the time and the only difference since 911 is that I get asked "Are you American?" all the time now. No I am not!

The only piece of insanity I've seen recently is the 'responsible' Govt body(Military) for the airfield I operate from wanted to build a fence around our airfield INSIDE the hangers etc, with NO GATES!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> None of us mind a fence but surely the hangers and buildings can form part of the fence? Well they agreed to a compromise......they're going to put gates in the fence in front of hangers etc which we can call up to be opened....FOR FCKS SAKE!!!!

I believe sanity will prevail in the end?

This does not stop me being enfuriated by what is going on in the US!

IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to simply say "keep calm and let it run it's course".

If you do then the same mindless morons who come up with this **** will come up with more of the same in the future.

Isn't it about time the intelligent peoples of the (free) world started demanding some accountability from the elected officials?

When this sort of thing is happening to the one group of professionals who pose NO THREAT (if properly vetted by the airline) you HAVE to say "NO THIS IS REDICULOUS, WE WILL NOT STAND FOR IT!!!"

The prison system in any western country is unable to keep drugs and weapons out with strip searchers and body cavity checks!

You or I(aircrew) can go through a similar search and it will have NOT THE SLIGHTEST IMPACT ON SAFETY/SECURITY!!!!!!!!

Some wars just have to be fought and this is one! Your/our professional dignity, human rights and basic common sense demand it!!!

The people responsible for this sort of LUNACY CANNOT be allowed to retain positions of power in a free society. If they do then we might as well give up and let the west be taken over by the very people we are supposed to be trying to stop.

RANT OVER!!!(for now)

Chuck <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Capt Homesick]

I don't mind the search too much- the last time I went airside without one was in 1988, they closed all the crew channels that month... now if they stopped me jumping the queue at security, that would be another story!

[RatherBeFlying]

Just had a look at the consultantspeak describing the Screener Training Plan -- most definitely the public will see that something is being done by people who likely couldn't get a C150 started, let alone get it to another airport undamaged.

It all so richly reminds me of the movie, Chicken Run.

In the meantime, we see that the passengers, in spite of the pronouncements from high authority, have twigged to the situation and know exactly what to do. All the would-be bombers, hijackers and air ragers quickly find themselves piled on by passengers who know that their self-preservation relies solely on their own actions.

Agreed that it is worth screening for guns, bombs and large knives. Leaving off intrusive searches for everyday tools might just reduce the hassle factor that passengers may again enjoy flying.

If instead of treating passengers and crew as potential terrorists, they were treated and educated as important resources ready to counter terrorist attempts, they might even feel welcome.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Reminds me of that scene in Flying High Two where all the terrorists are coming onboard armed to the gills and then a little old lady sets off the metal detector and gets lept on!!!

Chuck <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Ignition Override]

Excellent observations up there.

Pegasus77: Your story is amazing. My impression of "European' airport personnel (before 9/11) was that, in general, they are more intelligent than over hier in den USA.

Do the German "FAA" not allow security people to use any common sense? Or were they just extremely bored (gelangweilt)? Or are they really "nicht so schlau wie vorher"/dumm/doof/dickkopfig, or just very unhappy with their jobs or the pay?

Send eine e-mail wenn moglich.

[Ignition Override]

Jet Jackal made a good point about some reasons to stay calm, not just that many of us might have some of the better jobs, and we can't really argue or refuse searches.

If you have ever been through a divorce, just remember the phrase that can (did) help, and can help you in an airport, from Shakespeare: "misery loves company". Which means, if the person can NOT drag you down to their level of unhappiness or limited authority (only right here and now), they are always disappointed. You have won a small victory.

Also, you might have young kids watching you too. All of the personnel I've encountered since Sept 11 have actually tried to be tactful and somewhat respectful, even if it looks silly to undue one's belt for a few seconds.

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[Steve76]

I'm annoyed by this....and I just fly helos.

The terrorist have really won when all this bull**** occurs to us aviatiors.

When was the last time any of you hijacked your own aircraft?

Perhaps they should fully automate the cockpit, 'cause after all, Osama proved the aircraft is a weapon itself. I pity you guys with all the, turn the belt buckle over, lift your shoe crap, get scanned upteen times and god help you if you carry a leatherman. Its just menial power tripping by security. I hate going through security everytime now. I was asked for photo ID boarding a bandit, leaving a place called Timmins in Northern Ontario to Moosenee. Moose is an Indian reservation (1000 people tops) about 400 NM from the middle of nowhere!!!!!!

[dewort]

Thanks 411A, for setting me straight on that last but not least major consp. D'you ever get up to NYC? Be interesting to share a beer or two.

I'm with Chimbu in thinking that sensible and official intervention is necessary. Else we'll all be subjected to more silliness. . .Kampai.

[Latte tester]

Once again I was given the opportunity to witness EGLL security at their finest, this time as a pax. I'm off duty on my way home connecting through Heathrow, stopped by a nylon strap in the companionway prior to boarding the 777. Yes the nylon strap will stop most things, but just in case, some lucky customers will be allowed to be searched, yes I was one. My 2 inch eyeglass screwdriver was confiscated, hell of a weapon, but my carry on plant stand, wrapped, was not opened. The smalll tactical nuke that was inside the plant stand was obviously a non threat. Seriously though folks, if small screwdrivers are considered weapons, then why wasn't my carry on plant stand opened? I wonder if any of these security persons really know what constitutes a threat or are they just doing what some management ****** has stated without any thought process. Oh yes, none of the 15 kids with backpacks were stopped...hmmm.. .Enough of this rant, it won't get any better until someone with a brain gets involved.

Latte time :)