Who reads notams?

[speedalive]

Let's be honest folks, who reads EVERY line and all the details regarding your departure, destinaton an alternate airports NOTAMS before departing?

Surely there is a case for prioritising the crap that is so often contained, and that makes the job of reading it so time consuminng. Who the fk cares if a taxi way is blocked, whether they have moved the de -icing pad, or even if the ground frequency has changed - all of that will become obvious once you land or ask to taxi - what's more important are factors that WE REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT - and my point is that these should be HIGHLIGHTED rather than hidden in the small print.

Surely a system of proiritising the RELAVENCE of the information should be devised. Your thoughts appreciated - or am I the only dummy who cannot sort the chaf from the wheat?

[Eejit]

Think you should forget about NOTAMs and go back to basic airmanship.

NOTAMs by there very definition are relevant information.

There is no small print, it's all the same size.

If you can't take the time to read through several lines of information, some of which might have a serious effect on your proposed flight, you probably shouldn't bother continuing to the flightdeck.

So yes, you are the only dummy who can't sort the chaf(f) from the wheat.......:ugh: :ugh:

[18-Wheeler]

Think you should forget about NOTAMs and go back to basic airmanship.

NOTAMs by there very definition are relevant information.

There is no small print, it's all the same size.

If you can't take the time to read through several lines of information, some of which might have a serious effect on your proposed flight, you probably shouldn't bother continuing to the flightdeck.

So yes, you are the only dummy who can't sort the chaf(f) from the wheat.......


So you haven't seen the longer international flights then?
You can very easily have 20 - 30 pages of notams, and to go through them all to determine what is relevent and what is not would take literally hours.
It's just not practical.

[galaxy flyer]

ATC has a vote in this issue--and they post NOTAMs on the ATIS. Most have rather arcane information that owes more to lawyers than pilots.

GF

[captphil]

If you don't do the deed the deed will have you. surely you need to do something to justify your job. the rest is easy!!!!!
I think this post is a wind up:bored:

[CargoOne]

I'm second to 18-Wheeler on that. Let alone long haul. Even medium haul or cross-Europe flights passing many FIRs are associated with dozen(s) pages printout. If you really start to study all of it you need to report for a duty a couple of hours in advance.

[F900EX]

QUOTE "Think you should forget about NOTAMs and go back to basic airmanship.
NOTAMs by there very definition are relevant information.
There is no small print, it's all the same size.
If you can't take the time to read through several lines of information, some of which might have a serious effect on your proposed flight, you probably shouldn't bother continuing to the flightdeck.
So yes, you are the only dummy who can't sort the chaf(f) from the wheat......."QUOTE



Speedalive.... I agree in principal with your argument. There is a lot of rubbish much of which demands unnecessary attention, Aviation needs to be about clarity and pertinence. I wouldn’t pay any attention to the the statement by 'Eejit'... Where I come from it would be a case of Eejit by name Eejit by nature.
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eejit

[Eejit]

haha,

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eejit (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eejit)

Bet you read that more thoroughly than a NOTAM!!!!

:O

[maxalt]

If you work for a proper airline they probably already filter your Notams. But even at that there might be dozens of pages covering Departure point, Destination, several destination Alternates, plus a dozen or more en-route alternates and the FIR Notams too.

Nobody can possibly read them all pre-flight, and expect to take them in.

A typical pre-flight (short haul) might be 45 minutes, 25 minutes of which is probably required for getting out to the a/c and cockpit setup. So, allowing say 15 minutes for weather and Flight Plan checks, fuel decisions, Jeppesen check, company bulletins etc - that leaves about 5 minutes to read twenty or thirty pages of Notams?
Bull****.

Does 'eejit' really read the height of every crane within 5 miles of the en-route alternates (which he may never have visited) and immediately grasp the significance of their impact on the approach/departure procedures without greater study?
No way.

We all know that if we checked every piece of paper thrown at us we'd never get airborne. In fact - haven't certain pilots unions used that as a 'go-slow' in industrial actions?

[Dream Land]

IMO, I would estimate at least 80% of the Notams I receive are really meaningless, such as coordinates for bombing etc.

[Thylakoid]

I tend to agree.
Some freaks flying for EK need a two hour briefing, because they read every line of the stupid NOTAM. :ugh: :E

[skywaytoheaven]

maxalt is right, its a totally impractical system, and sometimes the important stuff is buried in the depths of taxiway light u/s, and mast 5 nm off approach path standing 20ft. Plus in certain parts of the world they are not updated so alot of it is completely irrelevant.

[Mike773]

Where I work, the NOTAMs are prioritized automatically by a computer system and then checked manually before briefing docs are printed. Then, when preparing the briefing it's up to me (the flight ops/dispatcher) to go through and additionally highlight the really relevant (or new) stuff.

I've briefed crew on NOTAMs in a few seconds flat. :} But then again, they have to have something to do during that long boring cruise: Test each other on the irrelevant NOTAMs! :p

[unfazed]

NOTAMS are generally available the day before the flight and it is not too onerous to scan through and spot relevant items

I do agree though that there is a lot of stuff that is permanently notamed such as kite flying at kite hill etc, I say lets have a cull of the permanent and minor irrelevant stuff to get rid of the cr@p

[ZeBedie]

There is a problem with too much irrelevant trivia and clarity of presentation.

[GP7280-POC]

"NOTAMs are created and transmitted by gov under guidelines specified by AIS of the ICCA. A NOTAM is filed with an aviation authority to alert Airmens....." If you don´t read NOTAMs you might pass that you some day could be the target of somebody else. Better read

[maxalt]

Now you're getting to the point.
Its basically an ass-covering exercise by the authorities.

But hey, thats why they pay you 'big bucks' :hmm: - so they have someone to blame when the **** hits the fan.

HE DIDN'T READ THE NOTAMs!! HIS FAULT.........

[TheGorrilla]

NOWHATAMS??:confused:

[411A]

I hardly ever actually read the NOTAMS.
The First officer does this little chore and advises me what is important for the planned flight.
After all, isn't that what the First Officer is for?:}
Now, if he's a good chap, he gets his choice of which leg to fly...sometimes I give 'em all away....especially if he agrees to do the HF as well.:E

[Spitoon]

And don't forget that in order to make sense of the NOTAMs you have to read all the AIPs too.

[CI300]

If you read them often enough, its not a big deal. You can very quickly reduce them down to the very few RELEVANT ones...

[Eejit]

There is such a thing as scan-reading, where through time one can pick out fairly quickly the bits of information, as CI300 says, if you read them often enough the relevant bits shine through.

My initial tirade on this thread was due to the context of the first post, which does suggest that speedalive pretty much dismisses NOTAM's from the start because, hey, someone's bound to tell you along the way what you need to know. The way it reads does not lend to a very professional approach to pre-flight planning IMO.

Naturally there is a lot of info that isn't going to affect the price of fish that much, it takes a moment to know what to look for.

I'm amused that I'm getting harangued for seemingly being the only idiot to actually read the info provided. Thought it would've been the other way around........

[dv8]

I always thought an airport would have to be closed down if it didn't have the required number of CRANES in the vicinity

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I seem to remember from the human factors courses that the human brain finds it hard to take in alot of text that is all in block capitals, SO WHY ARE ALL THE PAGES OF NOTAMS WRITTEN IN BLOCK CAPITALS?

We also need a little common sense in what is listed. Heading of to BCN the other week, there was about a page and a half of taxiway and stand closures, all sorts of valid froms and tos, over different dates and periods. For the same day, EMA had the simple note that 'at various times, certain taxiways and stands will be closed. ATC will advise'. That's more like it! :D

[Agaricus bisporus]

Some time ago the runway at Oporto had some big holes dug in it, and this was notammed. Not easy to spot amongst all the other bumph, but we did spot it, threshold displaced by over 1000feet. As we landed there the holes 3m x 3m x1m and associated spoil heaps were virtually invisible and the marking of the shortened runway pathetically inadequate. We remarked that we hoped everyone had read the notams...and on our return trip, guess what? Someone hadn't! A very sad little turbine twin (Embraer?) absolutely trashed and runway closed for hours.

You bet I read every notam!

[Orp Tolip]

AB,
I think thats the point most people are trying to make.
You spotted the releveant runway info hidden away amongst all the other, largely irrelevant junk. Lucky (or rather very professional) you ;) The turbo prop crew obviously didn't.
I try to scan through them all but in the 10 minutes I have available in the crew room its difficult...ours are not pre-filtered and sorted.
I agree that it would be far better if the info was better prioritised to make it easier for us to spot.
DV8 Nice one:ok:

[Mungo Man]

I got caught out once on final trying to ident the Localiser which wasn't making sense. Asked the tower what was up and they said 'Oh its being calibrated and is not working properly'. Had to quickly revert to an NDB app. I definitely scan the NOTAMS now...

I recently saw a NOTAM stating that migrating Geese would be crossing my final approach track at 500ft AGL. How do the Geese get permission to do that?

[fireflybob]

The one that always amused me years ago on the NOTAMS was "Pilots ECL" - I hadnt a clue what this meant so asked the Ops guy at the Indian airport we were departing from - "Oh that means Pilots to exercise caution on landing" - "Thats funny" I said "we always do that!"

Seriously though I think the situation with NOTAMS is quite appalling - we have to wade through all sorts of tripe and somewhere buried in there is something like "Airport Closed" etc. Its all a question of the airports covering themselves I think - they can say, well we told the pilots because its in the Notams.

We live in a world now where we are swamped with information but starving for wisdom!

[Lou Stulewater]

Preflight.

1 wx
2 dep notams
3 arrival notams
3 alternate notams
4 Decide on fuel.
5 (1 to 4 about 10 mins) go to aircraft.
6 during cuise review the dross that isnt in items 1 to 4 paying particular
attention to the possible bollox churned out by some jar states (OLA amigo)re beacons etc that is just not true.
7 Count myself lucky that cyprus and turkey dont still publish their ridiculous childish and dangerous spat in the form of notams anymore.

Come on guys unless your on a new route /destination ie ad hoc its not rocket science.:ok:

[iwd]

-----------------
quote:
Who cares if a taxi way is blocked, whether they have moved the de -icing pad, or even if the ground frequency has changed - all of that will become obvious once you land or ask to taxi - what's more important are factors that WE REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT - and my point is that these should be HIGHLIGHTED rather than hidden in the small print.
-----------------


Regarding the highlighted text I can tell you about a problem we had in BBU airport. There was a NOTAM that anyody read or toke into account. That NOTAM was telling us that a taxiway was being closed. Well, who cares if a taxiway is blocked? I will answer you that question: if you are flying an aircraft with a nose steering limitation, you should, because that taxiway was allowing us to exit the runway as no turning pad was available. This is an important item to take into account, as the aircraft was flying to an airport that could not provide any chance to perform a 180º turnaround due to that limitation.

[safetypee]

The NOTAM for Lexington (KLEX) 31 Aug 2006 seems rather important in hindsight.

08/035 - 8/26 CLSD WIE UNTIL UFN
08/023 - 22 ILS GP OTS 18 AUG 13:30 UNTIL UFN
08/007 - 4/22 RCLL OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/005 - 4 ALS OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
07/013 - 4 TDZ LGT OTS WIE UNTIL UFN

There is a justifiable argument to make NOTAMs easier to read. With modern technology, it must be possible to communicate more clearly – use pictures even.

[Dream Land]

The NOTAM for Lexington (KLEX) 31 Aug 2006 seems rather important in hindsight.
08/035 - 8/26 CLSD WIE UNTIL UFN
08/023 - 22 ILS GP OTS 18 AUG 13:30 UNTIL UFN
08/007 - 4/22 RCLL OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/005 - 4 ALS OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
07/013 - 4 TDZ LGT OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
Why is that? The problem they had was unusual taxi route and runway identification.

[Maude Charlee]

Whilst it is understandable that some parts of the NOTAMs may not be read in depth (particularly all the crap in the FIR that isn't within 100 miles of anywhere you're going to be, even if it all goes TU), it never fails to disappoint when on the very first call to ATC on the morning some plum embarasses themself by not even knowing what the NOTAMs are for their own base, like ATIS not broadcasting. Even more disappointing when said NOTAMs run to just 3 items.

"XXX tower, we can't get anything on the ATIS. IS there a problem?"
"Yes, the ATIS is u/s. It's on the NOTAMs"
"Oh"

Of 9 aircraft, we had a 33% failure rate this morning due plums.

:rolleyes:

[safetypee]

Dream Land Why is that? The problem they had was unusual taxi route and runway identification.
Reading the NOTAMed items on runway closure and lighting may have provided the crew with a memory trigger to enable recall before takeoff; good TEM practice.
This would not have guaranteed protecting the crew from a subsequent error, but at least it would have provided an opportunity to detect the chance of error or improve situation awareness.

[Dream Land]

Some lights are out, oh well, this doesn't set off any alarms to me, maybe if I was arriving, but with do respect to you, I just don't understand how it would have been a great deal of help, sorry. :confused: