Life after EK

[jack schidt]

I heard that a new Swedish airline needs about 30 or so ready qualified airbus or boeing pilots!

[Asian Lancer]

Well it would appear that the concerted efforts of Adel Al Retard and his old pal TCK are begining to pay off. At last we opening are eyes and voting with our feet. Emirates has forgotten who made this company a success and have decided that we are all expendible, replacable and, like the maids that they abuse, we will accept whatever crap they feel fit to deal out.

The ONLY way that things are going to improve for the remaining guys at EK is if more people leave. I have taken the plunge and believe me it has been for the better. There are SO many jobs out there with T&Cs that are respectable. I am surprised more have not resigned. Perhaps this is the start of the EK exodus!!

Can any one shed any light on the precise numbers of Capts and FOs that have resigned over the last 3-4 months. I will be interested to keep a tally.

Perhaps the recent decision to relocate guys to cheaper villas will push a few more over.

There IS life after EK believe me:O

[rainforest]

AL- ??? Numbers who have resigned ? Not many, I wud say. The footprints that you left will soon dissapear, overwhelmed by the ones coming the opposite way. Why other pilots do not resign ? Thats the problem with most of us who are not happy here,...trying to put others in their same basket. Like you, all of us here are "al-tempo". The next opportunity comes by ( with significant plus sign on it ! ), we will take ours. The fact remains, if you were a Capt, the guys junior to you will take his upgrade before you can say Bye, bye. Facts of life. All the best to you.

[Global Nomad]

Rain forest. What's your point?

[Asian Lancer]

Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. When we have Captains leaving here to go to the right hand seat. Surely that sends out a message on the value of a command at EK.
We are in general far to keen to fly. Even though a company shafts us at every oportunity we still have bright eyed wannabees that just can't wait to get to the front of the queue and be shafted next?!. What happened to maturity and wisdom?
Are we REALLY professionals or are those days over. We act like a bunch of short sighted self centred blue collar workers at times.

If the position of Captain is so good at EK and so worth joining for, and enduring the errosion of T&Cs then why are these guys leaving?

[Omark44]

Don't think that Expats. leaving an airline is such a mystery, I've spent a large part of my working life as an expat in both the Middle and Far East.

When FOs leave it is either:
a). They have got what they came for, endorsements and hours, or

b). They didn't get the upgrade as quiclky as they had hoped and feel they are missing out, or,

c). Wife and/or himself don't actually like the expat life and would rather be at home, or

d). They got a better offer.

When Capts. leave it is usually,

a). Wife and/or himself don't actually like the expat life and would rather be at home.

b). The move to the bigger fleet didn't happen as planned and they feel they are missing out, or

c). No career structure is evident, the move to training/management didn't happen, or,

d). They got a better offer.

e). An inability to accept that staying the course of, say, twenty five years as an expat will see your kids through excellent education, buy you a nice house in the UK and give you the opportunity for a happy retirement.

The Gypsy/Millers Court You didn't stay the course so you need not respond.

[ia1166]

Mate, you might want to look at the housing market and cost of living in europe vs the salary in EK. after 25 years of comfortable living, putting your kids through school in the M.E. are you really going to have enough to retire to a nice house and live out retirement? It's better to stay with a charter airline and do the 25 year course with them, get free schooling, live in your own gaff and get a pension. My mates back in the UK are far better off than me, and their wives don't get harrased at the supermarket.

[Mo Heekan]

Hi Jack,

Have to got any info on the Swedish airline concerned please?

Thanks

Mo

[White Knight]

Free schooling in the Uk is almost as good for the kids as NO schooling - believe me I know!!! Thought I'd just clarify that little point 1166

[Kelly26]

White Knight - How do you KNOW? How many free schools in the U.K. have you attended? I think Prince Harry could confirm that all the private education in the world can still be an absolute waste of money. Didnt Richard Branson attend U.K. 'free' schooling?
Sorry - I was just passing and thought I would crash you party to say that ;) Feel free to bombard me your sarcastic quips or ignore me. byee

[White Knight]

It's called having children old bean:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Myself - I went to a jolly expensive school:ok:

By the way, Dicky Branson went to free school when discipline was an accepted way of life. These days the damn left wing do-gooders have wormed their way into every part of UK society including education - making it pretty useless...

[Snowyman]

Would not get hopes too high on the swedish front. :suspect:

SM

[rainforest]

AL ( & also GN ), the point is ...as most of us have seen in this forum, EK is not everything and Dubai is not for everybody. Expats leaving, as someone mentioned, is a contineous thing in an outfit like EK. We have different tolerance level and we also have different avenues to go. Mind you, there are also a lot of Capts who left their previous job to come onto the right seat here in the desert. So, its not an unusual thing. Have you bother asking them about their previous Ts & Cs ? Exodus from EK ? Unlikely I think. A dozen or two from 1200 plus pilots will not be an exodus. ( we only had two this month !! ). I will throw my support for some of us whom are still putting a lot of effort to correct the wrongs in our Ts & Cs, and until such time I will stay put. Good luck to you and hope your plunge will be well rewarded. IMHO.

[6100]

Rainforest,

You're new here aren't you?

[Backwater]

Actually the latest list has 1108 pilots...

[VeniVidiVici]

I wonder what impact the Tsunami fever will have on the Dubai Economics 5 years hence. I mean the real estate market etc. and the permission for Expats to invest in property....most of which is by the shoreline and some expensive bits are well out into the water. I heard a swell last Tuesday caused some panic in Dubai and Ajman. As Emirates' success depends on the attraction ( artificially created ) of Dubai and vice versa, IMHO EK will not be as profitable or viable a couple of years hence, more so with some tough competition on account of Etihad and Qatar Airways. In such a scenario, obviously EK employees will have to feel the pinch as the management will be forced to cut costs in order for the company to remain viable. This may compel present flight deck and other employees to reconsider options and we may well see more movement out of EK.

[quarefellah]

Hi,
Fair comment my Latin friend. The real kicker for those of us here is that the company in its infinite wisdom is getting those cost cutting measures in place NOW and apparently only on the flightcrew side of the operation.

Returning the thread to the original post - who has confirmed nos. of those who have left (both Capts and FOs)? Heard lots of rumours but KNOW of only one case so far.

Happy Flying

[Cerberus]

VVV,

Sadly, the world will probably have forgotten about the tsunami in about 6 months. Do you remember the tsunami in PNG or the earthquake in Bam? As for Dubai and 'tsunami fever', do you think the Med will be effected too? What about the Florida keys?

Bottom line is that most people are a pretty fickle bunch by nature.:zzz:

[Global Nomad]

Your points are very valid...

As for the comment directed to you under my name

"and your point is"

...all I can add is that I never wrote that particular post so my advice to all is that a certain degree of caution should be exercised as to what one writes...

[Omark44]

Geologists who worked on the rigs etc. once told me that a tsunami big enough to effect the Gulf significantly would probably wipe out half the world. The geological structure around the Gulf is quite sound so the wave effect would come from the Indian Ocean, just imagine the power it would need to get round the neck of the gulf and still cause a significant problem within the Gulf, not to mention the damage that it did on the way.

[ironbutt57]

The Gulf almost had a tsunami....when they evacuated Das Island in the late 70's waiting for it to explode because of a leak....luckily it didnt...

[BigGeordie]

We should probably stick to flying aeroplanes and leave the geology to the geologists:p

[jack schidt]

There might be "NEWS" of the new Swedish airlines name looking for pilots. I can confess that there are resign's happening but suprisingly appear to be very quiet about it at the moment. (sorry its not a geology continuance of the resignations thread)! :sad:

[Asian Lancer]

May I direct you attention to the thread on QR looking for low houred pilots as cadets. On promotion to FO you get $6800 US.

Interesting figure $6800..exactly the same as an EK Captain earns after a year in the left seat!!

And you are going to buy a house in Europe feed and educate you kids and live a resonable life in Dubai on that...get real!!!


1US=3.65 DHMs

And still they stay!! Why wait for a command for that kind of insulting salary? This time the Euro exchange rate is not a factor.

[Mo Heekan]

Tell me more JS. Are you teasing me? ;)

[Asian Lancer]

Global it does not actually say that but if you are sure I won't argue the toss.

Even compared with an EK FO the experience differencial of the two is enormous and tends to lend further support to the undeniable fact that EK are grossly underpaid. I find it hard to accept that my salary, the yardstick of my success in my career has me on level pegging with a cadet FO!!

I am so glad that witthin a few months I will be able to put this behind me and rebuild a career. For those of you frantically swimming in the pool. Learn from it!!

For those awaiting upgrade read quarefellas post on good news and bad news.

[Uplink]

Going back to the original thread, I know of 3 B777 resignations and 2 A330. I would say that is just the start. The ball will start rolling and IMHO we will loose about 10% of the pilot force. Trouble is where do you go. There is not alot out there. You get people going to Ryanair but they are passing guys coming the other way. I have a colleague in SQ who is not a happy man and he is not alone. The disturbing news as in other threads on the forum is concerning rumours about T & C's being changed. This will definitely be a breach of contract and I think it will get interesting. As to people joining, if the T & C's are changed then that just might put the nail in the coffin for expansion plans.

Have to just wait and see.

[cosmozapper03c]

Allegedly EH now has LH management. New contract basic sal skip 35k. As opposed to 26.4k (highest achievable salary for a line skip) plus duty
day 700. When I had a chat with the QA mngr there (ex recruitment EH) he said they don't know where to get the 777 drivers from, absolutely no idea. That was a month ago. Some local FO I had with me the other day said, changes @ EH under way, better contract. Reshuffle in MNGMT. Well, that guy was right. Details yet to be confirmed. Stay tuned. EK will improve the pay? Don't hold your breath, budd. EH news is brandnew. A lot of guys complained about the "old" management. No SOPs etc. Lots of Malaysian A drivers happy as pigs, though. Some local EK FOs about to jump ship. All from AUH. Again, when I talked with the QA mngr, he said all EH pilots do 95 hours every month, period. Q: can one bid days off back to back for commuting abroad? A: your kidding, right? That was a month ago. Now I hear LH management is in charge. They don't stand for wrecking pilots. Never have. Let's hope it's all true. Some other news bit: EH A346 will fly to MEL and other Oz dest in 06.

[ironbutt57]

sorry i missed it...who's EH?

[fractional]

I think cosmozapper03c meant EY instead of EH. He seems to be well informed.
Being German doesn't mean LH just like being British doesn't mean BA.
There is a lot of uncertainty. The amount of information circulating is amazing. A new Company always has all these rumours flying around. It seems to be difficult for the guys there to know what really is going on and the future plans.
Let's see what happens in the next 2 to 3 months. Testing waters... The management "refinement" will happen by itself. It takes years and in some cases it never ends. Management Gurus, with less than desired records, will fall by the road side as the time goes on. The problem is that some usually do or cannot wait. I just said my wish list...

[rainforest]

6100, what are you getting at ? New to the forum or to this desert space ? What significance will that bring ?
BTW, back to the thread. Those boyz from AUH are planning to go home, not jumping ship as you wud hav said. Can't blame them. I would do the same given the circumstances. Same pay ( cud be more too...! ), staying in your own house and getting the allowance at the same time and can stop sreaming down the SZR to go to work , at least from Jebel Ali onwards. For expats, forget it!! Schools, medicals, etc, etc will take a big chunk out of your pay besides the house rental which we all know already. Yeah, only 1 Capt from 777, two co-pilots from the same fleet have resigned. 1 f/o from the bus resigned (or ......) we all know about that one. Heard one or two more Capts from the bus will or have put in their 3 months notice. Thats about all at the moment. Off to check the wadis, it rained last nite !!!

[FFFlyer]

Just to correct an earlier point - I heard a talk by a geologist who works for the US Geological survey seconded to the UAE. He was saying they have recently come to the conclusion that the area is much more prone to geological activity than was previously believed.
Interestingly Dubai used to design buildings to earthquake codes- not sure if it still does.

[6100]

rainforest

I will throw my support for some of us whom are still putting a lot of effort to correct the wrongs in our Ts & Cs,


Hahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!


Like I said, you're new here aren't you?

[Monty77]

And you've been here too long, haven't you?

[BYMONEK]

EH .....Etihad?

[NG_Kaptain]

Lots of the posts on Etihad, Gulf, Qatar and Emirates are a bit dated. Which one of them is the best to work with. I'm a 340 skipper, three years on type and 1500 hrs left seat. 14,000 total, 11,000 command, mainly DC-9, MD-83 and 737 NG.

[helen-damnation]

Any of them as long as you are in the F/Os seat and wait your turn!;)

[Global Nomad]

No such thing as 'your turn'.

Commands are earnt not an entitlement in this part of the world.

[Cerberus]

GN,

Thats a good one!

A 737 mate, say Joe, with 10,000 hrs and 3,000 in command can have a DEC at EK. However an EK A330 F/O, say Bill, with 11,000hrs and 5,000 in command (3,000 of which was on the 330) and 2 years at EK can't.

Why? Because there are people in EK management that will say but Joe is a Captain and Bill is an F/O.

Then it is patiently explained that Bill was a Captain, has been outstanding at EK and has more experience than Joe. To further press the point it is added that we actually know nothing about Joe apart from his interview. What response is forthcoming?..........but Joe is a Captain!

Scary really. EK must be one of the few airlines where time spent in the company can actually be detrimental to your command prospects. It will be interesting to see what happens when they run out of upgradeable 777 F/Os. Will they ignore the 330 guys that have been around for 4 years or so in favour of more DECs. Couldn't happen..............could it??

Cerberus:zzz:

[411A]

...when I read some of the comments here.

My, how the picture changes.

Just a couple of years ago, it was 'life is great, company is great, command just 'round the corner...'

And now it's...'boo hoo, life is terrible, the company has screwed us left, right and center, time to leave, as they can't operate without us, so we'll teach 'em a lesson'.

A rather large group of naive chaps, I must say.

By leaving, you will teach 'em absolutely nothing, as management, whether you like it or not (and I guess some certainly don't) will do it 'their way'...make no mistake.

As PT Barnum opined years ago...there's a sucker born every minute.

And, so there is...:}

[sluggums]

411A, there's a good lad p**s off, you've managed to keep your mouth shut for a while and it has been appreciated.:ok:

[Pontious]

411

The demise of a company's once generous T & C's and the plummeting morale is something that amuses you? You must be thankfull you attained your Licence and experience before CRM training and psychometric testing were the norm. Otherwise you'd just be another disgruntled trailer trashie with an even more poisoned outlook on life than the one you possess. How does it feel to be the most loathed pruner of all?

:ok:

[Global Nomad]

411A has landed another one with his award winning bait.

It might be smelly but it sure does work, an element of truth perhaps?

So, you get upset becasue you can't express yourself at work but it's OK to tell somone on an open forum to get lost?

I agree with 411A to a point, but the point has been made.

Some people are actually satisfied at EK and lead content lives for it. Nothing is perfect, but if you don't have anything to compare it against then I guess one will never know what is green or greener.

People will resign when you employ 1000+ pilots.

[Pontious]

Global Nomad

On the contrary, I don't feel that 411 is a 'Wind-up Merchant' at all. We have duelled more than once and I am of the opinion he is the type of 'Captain' CRM was designed to defeat. He has a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance and it is plain for all to see that his unemployability is getting to him. At least his 'thoughts and beliefs' raise a smile but it is rude to mock a fool.

:ok:

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

411a

Quite the contrary in fact.

Several years ago it was just the same. A few seasoned campaigners were trying to spread the word about where EK was heading, but we were drowned out by the likes of White Knight et al proclaiming us to be all glass half empty guys.

I, for one, was happy that I had made my attempt to provide factual and balanced debate for those that were interested and discontinued my posts.

A couple of years later it seems that all those new lads with sand colored glasses have now become somewhat seasoned campaigners. Maybe they have had their pay and conditions screwed with a bit, maybe been lied to about the quick command they were promised, perhaps kicked out of their villa and forced to move at own expense, and lo and behold they now feel the need to spread the word about EK and its nowhere near unique management style..

Unfortunately history repeats, as it is want to do, and there is yet another batch of newbies with their shiny new Landcruiser or Beemer and flash beach club membership that they can photograph and send back to all the unfortunate souls in Blighty that havent the 'courage' to give up union protection and civilised labour laws to enjoy the fruits of the "biggest, fastest, widest, tallest, loudest, most pretentious" place on earth.

So now the story looks the same. A bunch of pissed off veterans, who apparently wouldn't be happy if they were having diamonds shoved up their a*se, and a vocal crowd of newbies proclaiming everyone else here is too bitter and twisted to see how lucky they are.

The funny thing is, that the guys complaining now are the "honeymooners" of a couple of years back.

There is something to be learned from that...................................

But only for those that want to listen.


Cop U Later

The Rev

[411A]

Pontious,

Dunno about that.
I pick and choose contracts of my choosing...and for the last few months it's been at 14k/month +perdiem +housing+ business class air transport..+++

The middle east, and specifically the air carriers doing business there have long ago realized that pilots are a dime a dozen (yes, even experienced ones, just a few short years ago) and have set their salaries accordingly.

Of course, if those that do indeed have a gripe about all this, can right and truly pull up stakes and, well.....leave.
Don't let the door smack you on your backside, on the way out.

However, I suspect that many of the comments here specifically about EK come from a disgruntled few, who more than likely would have a hard time fitting in most anywhere else.

Enjoy the sand boys...the bloom has gone off the salary rose long ago.

[Saltaire]

411a,

You slag every single international carrier, including EK, CX, SIA etc....you sound chronically insecure and have likely failed in many interviews to gain access to some of these desireable positions. You probably work alongside some poor cadet that is too scared to say sh*t if his mouth was full of it, that is if you are employed at all. Your posts are predictable, one-dimensional and focus on nothing but the negative. Why not just go pay for it and take that load off, we'd all be happier.

[SecurID]

The Reverend sadly speaketh the truth. Unfortunately so does 411A, but the difference is that he seems to enjoy laughing at the frustrations we now suffer.

[dicksynormous]

I'm so glad events conspired to stop my job offer at ek from becoming a reality.

[BYMONEK]

Dicksy

What ' events' were those then...............not being offered the job?
:D

[millerscourt]

BYMONEK

It is a pity you do not practice what you preach.

Over on Cabin Crew Monarch or First Choice you slate someone after your posting and you said it should not be assumed that people who make negative comments have been turned down by that company!! Now you are doing exactly the same to Dicksy.

As you are 39 years old and flew for Monarch or First Choice for 14 years how come you are still a First Officer??

If you were a Captain in either then how come you did not join EK as a DEC :confused:

PS As for 411A As he is only B707 and L1011 Rated I suspect he is now retired or perhaps he was illegally flying the Haj for a short term contract as Captain or more likely as a F/O. Whatever certainly not on that Salary that is for sure as he says "a dime a dozen."

[fullforward]

Why piss off 411A all the time? It does not really matter who is he or what/were he flies.
Their posts are 99% correct, unfortunately for us. Why tint things in rose, let´s take a look at reality how it is and try to make our best out of it.
The more you get angry with 411A posts the more he laughs!...
He is just an ironic guy, but to the point. Like it or not.

[BYMONEK]

Millerscourt

It was only meant as a little joke,Hardly a serious attack on poor dicksy.As for your question,Unless you have had a considerable amount of experience in Left seat ie 3000 hrs AND 10,000 hrs total,then you will HAVE to join as an F/O.You can,however,be fast tracked if you have 2000hrs/8000 total.You will also need to have completed 1000 hrs on Emirates type.This is the big stumbling block for many guys now as the Company will not allow Type change & Upgrade at same time.......rediculous I know.There are many guys here who have held previous commands ( 4 years in my case) who have gone back to right seat. Actually,a good refresher to iron out possible faults developed sitting in the left!

Hope that answers your question

Rgds

BYMONEK
:ok:

[millerscourt]

BYMONEK

OIC A brave move in the circumstances. Hope it works out in the end.

BY Britannia?

MON Monarch?

EK Emirates

No surely not. I cannot believe anyone would leave Britannia to join Monarch?

[BYMONEK]

Millerscourt

Thanks,I hope it does too.So far,no regrets but as many people often say on this site,many of us are still in the honeymoon period.Time will tell I guess!

As for the Britannia/Monarch/ Emirates link, well, that WOULD be telling now would't it. Actually,nice deduction but not quite correct, although I know of several people who did leave Britannia around 1990 and again around 93/94 when Britannia replaced all their B737's with B757's. Several people did go to Monarch. Good move for them as it turned out as Command time was about half that of Britannia.

Rgds

BYMONEK............

[411A]

A few (Millerscourt for example) might well be surprised at the salaries offed from time to time for very short term Command contracts.

Suits me to a tee, especially as our small company has interesting projects underway...which pay a whole lot more. :E

Now then, it seems to me that when I first went to the middle east (1971, Commander, not as a First Officer) folks had a clear idea of what was on the table, and just got on with the job.
When better prospects emerged along the way (SQ for me) off they went... always as a Commander.
None of this nonsense of moving to the RH seat, in 'hopes' of that ever elusive Command.
Except under very unusual circumstances, the above mentioned foolishness is a road to disaster...as more than a few have found out at EK by now.

Put some starch back into your backbones guys.
If EK isn't the bed of roses it once was...move along to somewhere else.

Now, having said this...sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

[Shake]

Took a look at the figures, re-checked and checked again after comments were made at work:

Currently, the difference in pay for a upgraded F/O, 3-4 years in company prior to upgrade; approx 200 Euro/150 UKPs! (Based on £/$ 5.2 on joining wage 18,000. Upgrade £/$ 7.2 Wage 26,000).

Still not EKs problem but no wonder many on Parcs books now.

[Zomp]

do you guys still believe in 3 years to command?
there are almost no upgrades on the bus, that means there are not enough pilots to run the fleet.
got an email last week like many others that the company will give me this year only 14 days of leave instead of 42.
of course they will decide when I go on leave.

[SecurID]

Why only 14 days leave? Surely you get the 42 like the rest of us? It's in your contract! How come you only got 14 days??

[Che Xindamail]

Apart from being one of the most entertaining posters on the forum, and also a better speller than most, 411A is also right about the command.

Once you have the command NEVER give it up. Plenty of DEC jobs out there if you have the type, which these days seems to be the A330. If you don't, then perhaps consider staying where you are, rather than take the right-hand-seat in unchartered territory. The command itself is job satisfaction.

Che

[BYMONEK]

411A

Are you saying that once people become Captains,they should only ever consider a new job providing they 'retain' their Command? What about guys in B.A who might decide to leave a short haul command for a few years right seat long haul, or the guys who flew Left seat RJ100 (146) who join the likes of Britannia flying 767.The reason,i'd guess, is that it's more for a lifestyle change.It's not a case of not having the backbone.If anything,those that do make the move have a lot more AND the confidence in their own abilities that they will 'earn' their Command again.As I said in my previous post,a lot can be learnt from this 'nonsense' as you put it !!!!!
You were obviously fortunate to have been around in Aviation at the right time and the right place.The Gulf in the early seventies was a gold pot which can hardly be said of the place now. I'm glad for you and those of your generation who were able to enjoy the better times.
I, like many here,came with our eyes open and were well aware of what was offered to us.Granted,things have changed here and not always for the better.This,however IS one of the fundemental risks of working out here and guys should be aware of that. I have no regrets as I believe there is huge potential here in Emirates.If you would,however,advise me of the unusual circumstances in which one should give up their Command,i'd appreciate your comments,especially as,according to you, I now appear to be heading on the'road to disaster'

As for ZOMP, I can't for one minute understand only 14 days of leave. You need to investigate that further mate!

No beach today..........it's raining! :bored:

Che

Have just read your post but can't agree with that one.Left hand seat is great,sure,but is NOT the road to job satisfaction.That's why I left.

If it were true,you'd never get any whinging skippers and that,my friend ,is as rare as rocking horse poo!

Chow!

[SecurID]

Apologies Zomp, regarding your leave I thought you might have goofed up somewhere along the line.

I have just checked the leave system and there is only one day available to take leave in the forthcoming leave year in my category!!

Now don't all rush, but if you want the 22nd April, it's still available!! :\

[CptKavla]

Not only is there no leave available to take on the leave bid system, (a sea of red colour engulfs the page) but speking to the leave coordinator I was told by him to piss off. For those of you not familiar with the region it is the normal after sales service provided by the staff..... I am also owed about two weeks from this year as there was none available left to take, and also some 5 days before that. So pretty soon if it keeps up like this I will go on paid leave for a year.... But then again who was that manager that said that our job is a long lasting holiday so we do not need leave......
Keep Discovering

[Zomp]

well, I don't have the 14 days yet, the company will decide when I will get it. I can't even choose when, hopefully I may decide where I go.

[BYMONEK]

Mmmmmm.........................Perhaps the road to disaster is upon us sooner than we thought.

If all this is correct then we obviously don't have enough pilots to cover the program.

411A........Fancy coming out of retirement for a few years and coming here to help,we appear to be desperate! :\

[bluewater]

If no leave available and you continue to fly big hours/long dutys then take a sick day/s...thats what its for anywhere else in the world. Its there :mad: up not ours and then we just get told all the usual crap. I'm SICK of it!

[Can't think of a name]

Zomp,

I suggest you do a little homework on UAE labour law. Leave is your legal right. And before everybody jumps on the "there are no rights in the UAE" wagon, I would point out that the "legal" approach has worked in the past and the individual did get his leave granted.

It just depends on whether you are willing to get (pay for?) written legal opinion from a local reputable law firm, and then walk into the office with it in your hot little hand and say "According to UAE Law, leave is an entitlement, and to be taken at a suitable time by mutual consent etc etc etc etc".

I wish you all the best, and admire your bravery if you do take that option. If more people actually did this then a lot of what's happening probably wouldn't.

CTOAN

[flybystring]

UAE Labour Law



Part IV : Hours of Work and Leave

Chapter II

Leave

Article 74

Article 75

Every worker shall, within each year of service , be granted a period of anual leave not less than :

(a) Two a month, where the worker's period of service is more than six month but less than one year ;

(b) 30 days a year, where the workers period of service is more than one year.

Where a workers' service is terminated, he shall be entitled to anual leave in respect of fracttions of the last year.

Article 76

The employer may fix the date of comencement of anual leave and , if necessary, divide such leave into not more than two periods. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the provision respecting the division of leave shall not apply to leave fixed for young persons.

Article 77

Holidays for which provisions has been made by law or agreement or any other days of absence from work on account of sickness shall be rekoned as part of the annual leave if such holidays fall within the annual leave.

Article 78

Every worker shall be entitled to his basic wage and housing allowance if applicable in respect of his days of annual leave where the circumstances of the work make it necessary for a worker to work during all or part of his annualleave and the days of leave on which he works are not carried forward to the following year, the employer shall pay him his remuneration, plus a leave allowance in respect of the days worked at a rate equal to his basic wage.

It shall be unlawfull in any circumstances to employ a worker during his annual leave more than once in two successive years.

[LHR Rain]

20 resginations just last week.. Could it be pilots at EK have awoken from their slumber and realized the world is a better place without EK in their lives? Let it continue!

[helen-damnation]

In the latest Rumour Buster LL (Airbus Fleet Manager) says only 18 this year.:confused:
Is that:
This financial year?
Only on the Airbus fleet?

Pay + profit share is due in the bank in the next 48 hours, should be interesting to see what happens later in the week :ooh:

[EGGW]

Had to chuckle at the reasons given for leaving given by LL. Heard about spin, sheesh...

Heard about 2 more going myself yesterday, not resigned yet, but just waiting for firm start dates elsewhere :ok:

EGGW.

[Emma Rate]

Careful guys, the grass is always greener....don't jump ship too soon. There will be more annoucements.

[EZGOEK330FO]

Emma Rate,
would you care to elaborate for those of us down the food chain who do not have the priviledge of hearing the good rumours?

[davidletterman]

Did someone say DECs? Rumor is there is a new group at the training college right now...

[typhoonpilot]

There is a new group of DECs on the 310. I don't think that is news though. It would be news if there were some on the 330 or 777.

The increasing resignations is really only a factor of how long it takes to make the move. We are only just now starting to see the result of decisions made over a year ago.


TP

[Bird On]

By Gosh! What a load of Tosh!

Given the EK resignation rate fantasized about by some over the last few months/years, its surprising that by now there's any pilots left at Emirates.

Not until the indomitable White Knight tucks his little game under his arm and walks away is it time to leave Emirates.:ok:

[fatbus]

Dec on the 330 right now, so much for our own fo's

[Backwater]

Fatbus. If it's true, pm me the name.

[EGGW]

Gents, please don't rise to the bait set by Bird On. Complete wind up merchant.

As for more 330 DEC's :mad: :mad:

EGGW.

[Believe Brother]

Bird On, live with the decision you made to leave here a few years back, and start looking forwards, not backwards. However, if it is so much better here than down there, ask if you can come back. I'm sure management will offer you special treatment! And if you are simply worried about your former colleagues getting jobs ahead of you at the new international ops in oz, well then that's aviation; it's all in the timing.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Please confirm the rumour of 330 DECs if it is true i am resigning next week.
Goodbye EK.................
thanks for nothing.............

[sluggums]

Apparently we are allowed to leave under the T&C's of our contract......phew glad thats cleared up:ok:

[nixisfix]

typhoon,

"There is a new group of DECs on the 310. I don't think that is news though. It would be news if there were some on the 330 or 777."

It may be old news but it is still bad news, specially for the qualified F/O's on the 310. Your post reads like the A310 F/O's are somehow different and not worth the same career prospects all other F/O's in EK enjoy. While I do not expect that B777 or A330 F/O's will shed a tear for their peers on the old bus, at least don't make it sound as if it was OK to bring in DEC's on the A310.

[White Knight]

Bird On - you are the weakest link:{

HDG/VS please:E :E

[LHR Rain]

Nixisfix,

Don't be so disheartened, I am with you brother and most of the FOs at EK are too. Typhoon is obviously either a DEC or an accelerated captain that did not have to labour under the current rules at EK to feel sorry for us and what we have to go through. Seeing Decs and others jump ahead of most of the FO is bad enough but the attitude they convey goes against the profession that we all have come to expect. Keep the faith, we will get ours, someday.

[AlfaMike]

I just wonder, all this pilots leaving EK (I assume the majority are f/o who are very upset about the dec program) are they going to a company as f/o or dec?

:confused:

[Uplink]

Well said Alpha. I am still humoured by the rumour mill. The people that are leaving (20 this week, if anyone can name every one who is I would be glad to see the list) good luck to you all. I have to agree with Alpha, are you going to another job as an F/O to sit at the bottom of a list that will move as slowly as here.

At the moment it is the turn of the Airbus fleet to wait for their commands. A couple of years ago it was the Boeing fleet who had to watch Airbus guys leap ahead of them in the command stakes. In the next couple of years the A380 will come and guess what, the Boeing guys will watch the Airbus guys get ahead again.

Wherever you do end up, there will always be something to moan about. Emirates are expanding and there are very few out there doing it at the rate we are. I know guys in Europe who have waited 12 years for a command. So why is it different here. Because the interview promised a quick command? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that with the aim of achieving 2200 pilots by 2010 (more or less) there will be 1100 capts and 1100 F/O's. There are over 1200 pilots in the company now. So providing you make the grade the upgrade will come. Unless you are a captain already, then it will come alot quicker than on the outside. As for the DEC's they are coming on the A310 and are very welcome to it.

As for new joiners, I cannot believe that people are still basing their joining decision on things they read here. If you think we are having a bad time look up the road to QR or GF. Everybody is the same. SQ have their faults, and yes they maybe are going to get a big bonus. But it is a little naive to look just at what you are paid. There is the package as a whole to consider.

If you compare the package like for like for any airline you will find you win and loose on all items across the board. Look at what SQ are doing to their accomodation allowance. They are shafted there too. If you find a package and not just cold hard cash which exceeds what you are getting now. Congatulations you have just found your next job.

As for resignations, I think someone on here said 200. What a load of crap. The only thing that will happen here is people wont join. They wont join often because of the horse **** they read here. What that does is jeopodise everyones job here. I certainly dont want to see aircraft parked against the fence. Guess what happens then, redundencies. Then you are screwed because your command will be even longer coming as you are fighting tooth and nail with your old colleagues trying to get the crapest job just to keep you head above the water. (As an F/O)
We will all end up like the Ozzies did in '89 but thats another story.

So the long and short of it is to wait and see. If you decide to stay then dont make life hard for yourself and your colleagues, it just makes it miserable for everyone. If you are going to leave, then just do it. You will be replaced. I worked in my last job for 15 years and realised I was just a number. I expect very few would know me now. We all move on. I did and was replaced.

:ok: :ok:

[Trashed Aviator]

Its pretty obvious you are a captain.(uplink)
You have no ******* idea.
All major airlines do transition upgrades so should EK.......

[ironbutt57]

Some would bitch if you hung 'em with a new rope:rolleyes:

[teddyman]

Way to go Uplink. :ok:

This is among the best things I ever read on PPRUNE.
It is normal that the "negative" persons tend to dominate a forum
since the "positive" persons really don´t bother to write.

I am also really curious where the resigning people go.
Will they take a job as DEC somewhere? :rolleyes:

Believe me. Thes grass is ALWAYS greener....:ugh:

I say Goodmorning Asia, Godnight Europe

Happy Landings to you all

[Brix]

There's the package as a whole to consider

Exactly. Just a few points to consider:

1. In EK you have to ask for permission to leave Dubai on off- days.
2. If you are flying on duty in EK and your girlfriend/wife has joined you on the trip you are not allowed to walk back to the cabin and see her (company policy).
3. Generally speaking, living in Dubai means living under an arbitrary rule.

I think there's a chance that somewhere else there are better 'packages'.

More to come...

[LHR Rain]

Uplink

Just because you are probably a captain and a Canadian to boot don't take it out on us. It seems you have hit the lottery by coming to EK but most of the FOs here have common sense and don't like being treated the way mangement treats us. We also realize that there is a whole other world out there and the conditions are improving all over the place.
You are right that there is not the resignations taking place that some say there are but they are coming. HR believes there will be about 40 more before the summer is up. I know we all can be replaced just like the Aussies were and probably by the 3rd world or some more Canadians that will come and love the place, for about 6 months until reality sets in.

[Believe Brother]

Brix, good points, especially the first. For those who are quacking about how great EK is, please let us know the other airlines throughout the world where it is a requirement to formally apply to leave your base on days off. And approval is not a formality. There are already several who have been denied permission as scheduling have told management they would like to be able to call them on their days off to fly, due crew shortages.

Uplink, why is it different here? Because people have uprooted their families and moved to an unfamiliar country and are essentially starting life again. Might be ok if you are from a crap place, but some people have left nice countries to do this. The least they can expect is that their contract is not altered continually. I'm not talking about promises in an interview, but the contract they have on joining. Part of that contract is the requirements for command. Not sure how long you have been here, but it used to be 4,500 hrs and 4 successful PPC's. That part of the FOM formed part of our contract, and like so much else, was changed on a whim, with no consultation. That is why these F/O's are unhappy.

And BTW, I sit in the left seat, and have been discovering for close on 7 years now.

[Gulfa]

Brix
Come on mate, don't tell me you’re not going to see the Mrs if she's in the back, have some balls man.
You the same guy filing ASR's because you can't contact Mumbai on HF ?

On days off, just drop an email to Doris in the office, or just clear off and switch off the mobile.
If they call you for tea and biscuits, The 5 day camping trip in the Haja Mountains was most invigorating! I’m now relaxed chilled and ready for work.

[pilotusa]

Working for a well-known "US" carrier, I just heard this past week that one of our captains left for a DEC job at EK. I was surprised to hear EK is hiring DECs again.

[Uplink]

I suppose I better answer the slagging off I am getting.

Trashed:
All major airlines do transition upgrades so should EK.......

EK did transition upgrades, but hardly cost effective when you are running two large fleets. The pass rate became a problem especially for guys coming from 146 and B737 etc. Not to say that they were not good, just that they had very little exposure to major intl travel and found the decision making on a large jet a little different to what they had been flying, hence the turn to upgrades on the same fleet. More comfortable for the individual. Cant say I am entirely happy with this but economically it does make sense. People find it hard enough doing an upgrade. No need to complicate it further with a type change as well. It is my guess you are an airbus pilot and so are pretty upset that your upgrade is not forthcoming. I feel for you. But a couple of years ago the airbus guys leap frogged the Boeing guys. I know of several cases of Airbus guys getting upgrades up to a year before the Boeing guys, with the Boeing guys being higher on the seniorority. Guess what, in 2007 this will happen again when the A380 arrives. It is market forces. The DEC's are being used for the A310's that are coming. I am sure if you volunteer they will let you go on it. Or maybe you are not that desperate.

Brix:

you have answered your own question. If that is the thing that gripes you the most;-

1. In EK you have to ask for permission to leave Dubai on off- days.
2. If you are flying on duty in EK and your girlfriend/wife has joined you on the trip you are not allowed to walk back to the cabin and see her (company policy).
3. Generally speaking, living in Dubai means living under an arbitrary rule.

Then go and find an airline where you can do all of the above. I think you will find that with the day off issue there are many guys who commute and have not made it back in time for their work pattern. It happened too many times and the rest of us have to suffer by covering their work. Remember before you state that we should have overseas basings..... We dont and never IMHO will. The commuters took the job knowing this. If they cant take it they have to make alternative arrangements. ie CX and SQ. But likewise you will find there are limitations there.

LHR:

Whats wrong with Canadians and are they that bad that you can group them together as a race and slander their character. Yes I am a Capt but I still had to do my time as an F/O. My thoughts were and I say say again. There are 1200 pilots here and the people that moan are generally a very small minority. Conditions are improving out there and yes EK may not get the people they want. Yes there may be resignations. I doubt 200 but maybe the figure you state, again a small enough proportion that could probably be classed as natural wastage. Those jobs you speak of out there, maybe those are the ones that people like you ought to leave for. No offence. The rest of us still have to work and live here. It may not be ideal, but I will not spend the rest of my time here bitching and moaning like a bunch of old women. We do not have a union and therefore have no sway. The unions could keep our contracts in check but that is about it. As to pay rises, see what is happening in Europe. The mangement only pay you what they want. It is a done deal going in to a management pay meeting. Believe me I have done it many times.

Believe:

I am close by the length of time you have been here. I also do not like having my contract continually changed. The problem is, there is no way here to change that. Remember what happened when a contingency of gentlemen tried to start a union. I seem to remember the leader received a small call from the big leader. There is no answer. It is like being institutionalised. You either accept it and get on with life or not. (easy time v hard time). The only choice we have to not accept it, is to leave. That is the option. and the only option. If you can find a better deal and package I am all ears.

Gulfa:

Last spoke to Mumbai going west 2 1/2 years ago.

You all have a choice, stay or leave. If you stay then do easy time and stop moaning. It will achieve absolutely nothing. Except to piss your colleagues off. Make your voice heard in a diplomatic way. Look at the RSV dutied they have just changed. Again I didnt vote for that to be implemented. I voted against it. It has been changed and I cant do anything about it. But I am not going to loose sleep over it. If I wake up one morning and the company has completely pissed me off, I will resign. I did it before. Maybe I am just a little more tolerant in my advanced years

:confused: :ouch:

[BYMONEK]

UPLINK

Agree with you on every point there.......except one! I voted for the blocks of reserve so sorry........i'm partly to blame!

Brix

If being able to see your girlfriend/wife on the flight is an issue for you then either;

1) You really can't have that much to complain about with E.K.

OR

2) You really are some seriously in love sick puppy dog!

She'll survive without you for 7 hours i'm sure :ok:

[Uplink]

Finally if you do want to see wife/girlfriend during the flight make sure they are not sitting next to each other

[ratpoison]

Gulfa,

yes, and we can all here the w%nkers reply to that. " The Haja mountains are actually out of Dubai and you needed permission to leave. We will now have to doc your pay for AWOL." Maybe next time we take the family for a drive to Red Hill for quad riding we will need permission as well.

Keep Discovering.

[Warlock2000]

As Douglas Bader once put it....
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

[SecurID]

What's the big deal? As Gulfa said, drop the girls in the office an email. I often request to spend my days off out of Dubai. Very simple process, just email Leslie, Reshma or Thuwayba (incidentally, all very underrated and unappreciated individuals) and they will without fail send a confirmation back agreeing to the time being spent away.

I know of no situation where anyone has been denied this with the exception of a couple of guys waiting on a disciplinary hearing.

[maxalt]

No offence guys, but I'm never gonna work for a company where I have to ask some office girl if I can have permission to go to Bangkok on my days off.

The fact that you find that acceptable speaks volumes for how brainwashed you've become, living in a sandpit where you have no human rights and no say.

[turtleneck]

no offence guy, but some might feel brainwashed having to live on an island where some people shoot each other over an old book and i personally prefer sun to drizzle. i worked for a civilized, old and reputed european company and even there it was in the contract that if you were off (not leave) more than three days and planning to leave the country, you were expected to contact fleet office. and by the way: we don't call them “some office girls”.

[SecurID]

Maxalt:

Brainwashed? You must be friggin' joking mate! I am opening my eyes to all that is around me and the fact that I have to politely send an email to the Superintendants (NOT some office girls, I would never be that arrogant) means that I am simply following a protocol. Do I agree or disagree? Doesn't matter. To me it is simply something that has to be done and when I politely inform them where I will be, the answer has alwasy been 'Approved, enjoy your trip!'

As for having no say, well may I humbly suggest that you start to learn how to ask for things? Ranting and raving, sulking and whining never worked when I was a kid, why should it work now? If you are genuinely unhappy where you are, have you actually expressed your discontent with your senior management?

Uplink:

Agree with your entire post. I also did not vote for the block and in conversations with others that voted for it, neither would they if they had known the full facts and exactly how the reserve blocks would be implemented. But then as my Dad always said, 'It doesn't matter who you vote for Son, the government always get in!'

Brix:

There are hard rules and soft rules. I believe that lowering the gear before landing to be a hard rule. Having a chat with your missus whilst the rest of J-class are having a nap would be in defiance of a soft rule. At the end of the day, who cares? Go and say hello, but as Uplink said, make sure she's not sitting next to your girlfriend!

Believe:

Good points. The fact that the contract has changed is not good at all, but what can be done about it? I am certainly not brainwashed, but I do like the analogy with easy vs. hard time! I guess that I prefer the easier life and not getting worried about things that I cannot influence or change has been the greatest discovery of all for me.

Trimotor:

Yes, forgot about that! Poor old Douglas was legless due to an immature act of foolishness but then reverred as a hero later! Irony at its best.

[maxalt]

Office girl/superintendant - whats the diff?

Some clerk giving me permission to do what I like with my well earned time off is more than just a 'formality' IMHO.
Its an affront to my independance and smacks of Big Brotherism.

Still, some can live under that sort of regime. Its a matter of personal standards I guess.

I once worked for a short while for an Asian company which required all swops to be applied for in writing, in triplicate (or was it quadruplicate), and including a 'reason' for wanting the swop.

Most never bothered trying to swop because of the unweildy system, but when a colleague wanted to finish early so he could pick up his mother from a flight - he wrote 'personal reasons' in the request.

It was refused on grounds he didn't provide enough detail on the reason for wanting the swop!

If they expect you to ask for permission to go away, I presume they can also refuse permission - or why require you to ask?
You say you've never been refused, so thats all right then. What will you do if they ever decide to refuse permission? Do you have any rights? A union? An appeal?
Now, what if the refusal is based on some past misdeameanour? You didn't bend over backwards once to help out, or you were a bit akward about something, or a clerk has just taken a dislike to you?

This is the kind of bullcrap certain managements use to coerce and cow their employees. Its a power trip and they'll use it when the time comes.

Its also why I don't choose to work in the Middle East/Asia.

[uplock]

The process for applying to leave off base works ok, try it you get a reply a lot faster than before.

I was denied permission to leave Dubai last year on sick days just before annual leave.

Permission received 4pm on the afternoon before my leave started so yes it has happened Secure Id even to those of us not standing in the corner and trying to stay off the radar screen

You just have to work and bid a little more smarter and even when you get a roster that looks like it was written by your EX you still can ring up sked and change it

I cant believe how guys still ask for days off in exchange for giving you their work ....

[ratpoison]

Could not have said it better myself Max.

[nixisfix]

can we get back to the subject, please. The bonus is in the bank, no reason to hide anymore, so has anybody thrown in the towel?

[Payscale]

Uplock

..when you call scheduling because you doing like your roster, someone else has to do it for you. Is that fair?


If your request to leave base on a day off is rejected, because they are short of pilots, doesnt mean that you have to help and fly on a day off does it now..

[sluggums]

Payscale, I agree. What confuses me (Easily done:{ ) is that if I did have my request to leave Dxb rejected, on the grounds that they are short I would not answer either of my phones unless I knew who it was. I would also consider telling the company this, unless there is a UAE law passed that makes it compulsory to answer your phone!:suspect:

.....or be so drunk that when the phone does ring....................:ok:

[EGGW]

I don't know about any other of you guys, but i love a bucks fizz or vodka with my cornflakes on a day off in DXB :E :E

EGGW.

[Quod Boy]

Secure ID,your info is incorrect,I personallyknow of 2 pilots,denied permission to leave DXB last summer on days off,I flew with both at the time.

Uplink,the reasons why many are leaving are varied,but I venture to suggest for many the last 2 years here,is too much.DECs was always a hot topic.It sure is now.Why did they not join as FOs years ago like us?

For people like yourself there never will be an explanation,until you realise not everyone thinks like you do.Many pilots here are very disillusioned.For those who came to EK voluntarily,many remain happy,but for those who needed a job,it is variable.

The direction EK was taken in by the Flt Ops management,some 2 yrs ago is now showing its results.IMHO of course.

Good strategy?QB:cool:

[shaggin yoke]

My Dear ex collegues. It never ceases to amaze me that so many experienced and talented pilots, excellent managers and decision makers, are willing to sit back and accept the absolute bull that EK are dishing out right now. For Gods sake look around you! You are paid appalingly below market rate your meagre conditions of service are constantly being erroded. You have increased productivity and produced excellent profits yet again. You once admired traing department is now a shambolic shadow of it's former self. You have accepted DECs into your airline at a HIGHER rate than exsisting Captains. What does the airline have to do to make you finally get up and go? How low are you all prepared toi go?
I left a while ago and I cannot believe what a good decision I have made. IU am ashamed at having allowed EK to insult me for as long as they did.
You life is in your hands. Stop whinging and move! This profession is suffering precisly because of wimps like you guys allowing management to insult us. Let EK fly their new aircraft without pilots and do the industry a favour. The responsibility lies with you as an individual. Have the balls to stand up and be counted or slide back under you stone and shut up.

[616200]

Whatever....Keep shagging your yoke....
I bet you work for Ryanair.....

[MR8]

Ok, I know it's a bit off topic..

As far as I am aware, the rule for asking permission for leaving Dubai on days off is actually a legal requirement. EK is the sponsor of your visa, so if you leave the country with outstanding debts and do a runner, it's EK who has to cover for you. This law is 'designed' for the low salary guys on the building sites etc, but does apply to every expat in Dubai. At least that is what I have been told, and it would make sense.. Correct me if I'm talking B*LL.

As from not getting to leave, didn't hear from it before. And no, these superintendants or NOT just office girls.. These girls work extremely hard, are always available for help and never without a smile.. And I have no idea how things would work out without them... Thank you girls!!

Uplock, no offence, but not getting to leave Dubai on sick days before leave is 'normal'. Well actually depends on what you are off for.. just a cough or did you break something?? The thing is, if they would allow this, you'd suddenly get a lot of 'colds' and 'flu' just before or after annual leave, just to be able to book that trip that leaves the day before your leave starts... It does suck for the guys who are genuine sick, but then again, would you want to fly (even as a passenger) when you're feeling ill?

Maxalt, as for Big Brotherism.. A certain low cost carrier in the UK checks staff travel for guys who call in sick.. If they catch you on a staff ticket flying somewhere while you should be in bed, expect a phonecall to come in for T&B. Lalaland is watching you... ;)

As for the topic. Heard the other day in CBC that one of our management captains got an 'emergency' telephone call while on layover about 20 resignations in a few days.. Maybe that's why LL's note on resignations came online on 25th I think, with a date of 20 May... At least they weren't lying about the situation as it was on 20/05, but really, how is it today, or will it be next week.??

[BYMONEK]

Hence he'd know all about "meagre conditions of service"

As for being paid "appallingly below market rate" i'm not interested in what the salary is, i'm interested in what actually goes into my bank account. So, even though the salaries may seem low, with no income tax and national insurance to pay, my bank account each month is as good, if not better, than most other COMPARABLE pilots.

As an aside, i'm sure we're all curious to know who this wonder Airline is that you now work for and whether THEY paid YOU an additional 4 weeks pay this month.

Off to hide under my stone.........and count my money!




;)

[LHR Rain]

Bymonek you are the problem Yoke is talking about. What other airlines are you comparing fabulous EK to? Air Zimba, PIA, Air Nepal? We will never have the likes of Europe with attitudes that you possess. I would dare carry a wager that EK could even cut your salary and you would not leave. Preciesly the problem.

[Believe Brother]

bymonek, you went down that road on another thread recently, I think. Compare the amount left over each month with our colleagues at dragon and CX. (A comparable expat job). Even after cost of living and the 15% tax, they have heaps more. That is fact. Talk to similar seniority colleagues. And that is not including the fact that they have 15% paid into their provident funds from day 1. It is only personal preference as to whether you would rather live in HKG or DXB, but remember, as an expat, you will have to leave some day. Think about how much less time you would have to spend as an expat with CX or KA, than what you will need to do here. Oh, and then there are basings with CX if you want a break from HKG.

[BYMONEK]

Believe Brother

I went down that road because that's the road I want to take. Having a member of my family living in Hong Kong, i'm only too aware how expensive it is there. His Salary is huge but requires it to sustain a bareable quality of life. Cars are frighteningly expensive as are decent restaurants and bars. As for accommodation, if you thing Dubai is expensive,think again.While he lives in a 3 bed high rise, I can live in a 5 bed villa near the beach. It's all personal choice but I don't consider it ' DOING TIME' while i'm here. I choose to come here and my family are very happy.If we weren't, we'd leave! Further more, a visit to the UK is possible over a long weekend, unlike Hong Kong.Whereas for the Aussies...

LHR Rain

As for your wager, my TAKE HOME pay is the same now as an EK F/O than it was as a 3 year Captain with one of the top UK charters. That may not say much for the UK tax system but as I said in my post......it's what goes into the bank that counts.

[maxalt]

Hi MR8.

As far as I am aware, the rule for asking permission for leaving Dubai on days off is actually a legal requirement. EK is the sponsor of your visa, so if you leave the country with outstanding debts and do a runner, it's EK who has to cover for you. This law is 'designed' for the low salary guys on the building sites etc, but does apply to every expat in Dubai. At least that is what I have been told, and it would make sense.. Correct me if I'm talking B*LL. Fair enough if it is - but then why do they use it as a means to control crewing, as has been stated?
If its just a legal technicality how can they refuse your colleagues permission at all? Unless they think they're never coming back?


Maxalt, as for Big Brotherism.. A certain low cost carrier in the UK checks staff travel for guys who call in sick.. If they catch you on a staff ticket flying somewhere while you should be in bed, expect a phonecall to come in for T&B. Lalaland is watching you... I have no problem at all with that! Thats because I can see the difference between a legitimate right to freedom of travel on my days off and being caught out in an intentional lie and abuse of sick leave rules. ;)

[shaggin yoke]

616 Thanks for that most intelligent and considered piece of prose. Pondlife like you buddy have destroyed the credibility of this profession.

Bymonek. Get you facts straight my friend. Even after tax you will end up saving more cash in many other companies than you will ever save with EK. If living in a company provided accomodation and surviving in an ever more expensive environment by crawling around for discounts using your EPC card floats your boat then go for it buddy. However one day you will leave Dubai and you will have to compete for a retirement with the likes of me. People in the real world living in their own property and paying their own bills. You live in The Truman show my friend and one day you will be shown the door.

It amazes me that you are so protective over a company that has done nothing more than shaft you since you joined.

By the way old been my company pay a guareenteed 13th month plus a guarenteed 14th month every year.

I pay tax but I have rights and God help anyone that F@#$% with MY contract!

When I drive on the road I am an equal.

Wake up my friends you live in a hostile society and should be paid accordingly, and I mean paid in cash not free memberships and discount piss at the local.

Walk now or bend over.

[BYMONEK]

shaggin yoke

What a very angry and bitter person you sound. When I do decide to retire, I will endeavour to do it as far away from you as possible. Away from people like you who's own insecurities are reflected in the "my car's newer than yours" behaviour. I don't consider myself to be in competition with anyone, not now and certainly not, when I retire.
Regarding accommodation, i'm very happy to be in one that the Company provides. That is until, I move into my own villa in 2 years from now which has already enjoyed considerable capital growth, on paper at least. When I do, the Company will then pay my mortgage by giving me more money.£15,000 p/a to be exact.
As for the numerous properties in the UK which are being paid for by other peoples rent......
Plenty more "facts" available but none that you'd like to hear.

Regards

BYMONEK

P.S Please invest in a dictionary.....i'm sure you can afford it!

[shaggin yoke]

No I am not bitter, why should I be? I know a lot of first rate guys at EK and it does anoy me to see the trend of eroding the Conditions of Service continue. When I was their I was like you and looked for reasons to justify the shafting.

Good for you you have property at home. Did you purchase that out of savings from EK? Do you really beleive that a new joiner will be able to repeat your success?

As for competition, sounds harsh doesn't it?

When you retire and purchase your retirement home, the value of that home will be dictated by the amount other people, your competion, are willing to pay for it. It is just simple market forces. You guys in EK earn about the same as a bus driver in the UK ( FO salary). A trades man in T5 earns 75K Sterling per year.

When your junior collegues retire do you think they will be expecting to shack up in a 2 up 2 down in Peckham. The 5 beds in Guilford will go to the likes of those guys you see occaisionally in Dubai. You know the ones in the nice suits that eat in the Vu everynight and stand in Boudois with Champagne on ice. The Oilworkers Lawyers etc etc.

The world IS competetive and you better learn that fast. In this jungle you guys are the zoo animals. Good food and a secure environment. I live in the jungle a fight for my respect and Food.
One day you too will be in the jungle. Compete or die that is the name of capitalism.

4 weeks bonus!! I hide my face in shame as you rejoice over your meagre hand out. I have senior friends that earn that in overtime and a lawyer friend who gets that in allowances monthly.

You either say no to this exploitation now or trust me you will look back one day and regret that you did not have the balls.

The weak are exploited and that is what you are right now.

[BYMONEK]

shaggin yoke

You still havn't bought that dictionary yet, have you?

Are you telling me that bus drivers are earning over £50,000p/a
That's the minimum they would need to get before tax deductions. They have housing provided do they? Perhaps an extra £15,000 tax free allowance in lieu then? Schooling paid for? Medical/dentist for all family?42 days leave? Don't insult us!

The only thing I agree with you on is the pay for workers at T5. But with my reckoning, £75K would put them on a higher salary then any UK Airlines starting salary for a Captain. Including yours...... which you seem to have conveniently not mentioned yet.

As for not being bitter.....seems like YOU'RE trying too hard just to keep up with your lawyer friends. Give up.....drive a bus instead.It's good money you know!:rolleyes:

[shaggin yoke]

Dictionary on the shopping list!! :-) its like being back at school!

Train driver gets "free education" paid for by taxes. free NH and Dental care.
He gets legal protection and can leave his country when on days of whenever he pleases.

If things turn to crap the state will give him housing and supplemental income depending on his requirements IE number of dependents.
Train driver has got legal protection and a stable union protected contract.

24000 dhms / 7 *12=
41000 GBP

Ryan Air Captain 120000 GBP. Cathay housing allowance 35000 GBP!!! Wake up and smell the coffee mate

If you include all that payment in kind rubbish that EK sell then you are sader than I thought.

I don't envy my lawyer friends ..they envy me.

I suggest you print off this discussion and put it away somewhere safe. It will make more sense when you re enter the jungle.

[Believe Brother]

bymonek, I'm not criticising your choice to come here / stay here. I don't wish to be an expat for any longer than I have to, maybe because I really like my home country. I also chose to come here rather than go down other paths for combination lifestyle and remuneration. Unfortunately, EK has not honoured their side of the contract. As well, the lifestyle has eroded significantly over the time I have been here. I have done comparisons with both A and B scale colleagues in CX, and they are each streets ahead in remuneration (remaining savings at end of month). That means they are able to save / invest greater amounts of money, and hence reduce the amount of time as an expat. CX also offers basings, but I guess if you really dislike the UK so much, then perhaps that is not for you. And as far as the house which you have bought but is not built yet, good luck. As we know, there are just as many winners as losers in real estate. For some reason, people in Dubai think that the real estate market will not follow age old rules of real estate markets throughout the rest of the world. There will be a peak. My view is, beware of owning a villa 10km out into the desert at the time when real estate near the coast becomes available to expats as well. I think it is late this year by decree. Anyway, keep the debate coming. Most enjoyable mate. :ok:

[BYMONEK]

Shaggin yoke

Make it an ABACUS as well.

My Dirhams are net. He would have to pay tax remember.Which makes it £50,000 min. As for the state paying for him and his 4 kids if it all turns crap.....who do you think pays for it. I'll give you a clue.....it's not me!
Cathay housing allowance = still living in apartment
Ryanair starting salary £120K = B*******
You're the one who needs to smell the coffee, mate.

p.s the rate is currently 6.7

p.p.s you still havn't told us all who you work for!


Believe Brother

All valid points and can't argue with you on some of them. CX would never be for me though, regardless of pay. As for property advice, i'm planted well and truly near the sea but i'm all too aware the housing market may sink as fast as it rises....

Regards

BYMONEK

[White Knight]

S Yoke - sorry mate, but I had a bit of a laugh at your figures for a Ryanair driver (not bus:} ) Can you back that figure up??
Oh yeah - free medical and dental on the NHS, get real. It's VERY hard to find and sign up with NHS dentist, and as for the medical side of it:yuk: :yuk:

Besides, why do you imagine that all Brits want to retire to Mud Island:confused: :confused:

[nixisfix]

interesting but totally OFF THE TOPIC! The thread is "EK Resignations", anybody interested to say something about that?

[BYMONEK]

nixisfix

If shagger boy can substantiate his claim of £120K for a Ryanair Captain...........i'll resign. Bond or no bond!:ok:

[shaggin yoke]

Bymonek,

Before leaving EK I did a LOT of research. I suggest you do the same. Dubai is very seductive and it is very easy to bury your head in the sand and not worry about that inevitable day when you might have to leave. As for the Hong Kong airlines you can only dream of saving that kind of money.
Why not talk to the Ryan Air guys and find out the hourly rate and tax situation. Look up the top of scale for Virgin. See what a 777 driver takes in India. Talk to ANA and Dragonair. Sure, some of the jobs are less glamourous than EK, but why do you work is it to earn money or drive shinny aircraft?
Scott Fitzgerald wrote a book called the Lotus Eater, it is about you. Perhaps you should read it and change your handle.

Anyhow, I seldom write on this forum and have stated my opinion you can either give it some thought, extract your head from the sand and open your eyes or .....well ... read the book.

Good Luck

As for the original topic. Many are reacting now to the misguided policies brought in over the last 3 years more will go but only the ones that are individuals and capable of standing against the flow.
I admire and congratulate my former collegues that have shown such metal. It is EKs loss.

[Uplink]

Looking at Shagger Boys posts, He has obviously found the place where he wants to work. I am pleased for you. Yes you have to pay attention to what goes into the bank at the end of each month. But if it is Ryanair you work for then the money is like the service you provide. No frills.

I said in an earlier post look at the package as a whole. Maths or no maths, you have to firstly look at tax, then medical, dental, school fees, accomodation, pick up for work, tax again, choice of where to fly,(dont laugh), cost of our hotac down route compared with yours, provident fund (for what its worth) staff travel entitlements, cost of fuel. I could go on some more. But lets just look at the facts. I would be interested to see what actually goes into the account each month, BUT following that how much extra you have to pay out to cover housing, schooling, medical (lets not laugh too much about the health service you just about have in uk) or the lack of non private dentists. The fact you have to pay for your accomodation when you are down route. And to boot your expenses you have to cover too with regard to food and Bev.

Finally lets look at the high work load you have to do. Multi sectors, and little time off with max hours. I bet my stress level is less. Dont forget the cost of fuel. I fill a Merc and a 4x4 for less than half of you smart car I bet.

If you still are quids in then I really am pleased for you. There is one other thought, you have to live in the UK. Rather you than me.!!!



:yuk: :yuk:

One other thing I forgot, how many have actually resigned. Is it getting close to 200 yet or just about 30 out of 1200.

Be interested to hear.

[Payscale]

My guess is around 30 this year. Not a whole lot. But it is the trend that is looked at. Are people still resigning after the 3+8% payrise? we shall see in 2 or 3 months. People who leave today made their decission before the announcement.

More interesting is how many oz bus drivers would a Virgin Atlantic base in Sydney lure away from EK. And what wiould EK do to keep them? 20-50 is my guess...

[Quod Boy]

So Uplink you think 30 out of 1200 is acceptable in such a short time?

Head out of the sand,and fill your car up with cheap petrol,thats about 8-10 times the usual "attrition" rate.There is a problem.
IMHO,of course.
QB:cool:

[Shake]

Shagging: EK glamourous? You saw it on the inside; I didn't come across any glamour in the 90 hours I flew last month, just fatigued crew 'discovering' the world through bus and hotel windows.

As far as resignations are concerned, how many were there 3 years ago? Virtually none, so if the figure is a conservative 30 then that is a significant figure and a sign that EK is not the place it once was.

The rumour mill also has it that of a course of eight due to start a week or so ago NO one turned up. I realise that several have not turned up on previous courses but if this one is true then it is becoming serious.

EK cannot afford for anyone to leave or not turn up for courses if they are to sustain the growth they invisage. The combined total of the no shows to those leaving will mean that soon aircraft will be parked up.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Shagger. The pay for a Capt at Ryanair is £90,000, this was the figure i remember from a recent Ad in Flight international. you get no perks, work your nuts off, do multiple sectors, pay tax, NI, etc......

I heard the other day that another pay increase is in the pipeline. Heard this from 2 different sources :ok: Maybe that will stem the drip drip of those leaving, and encourage some to join.

We can hope i guess.

SyB :zzz:

[Shake]

Bootie:

I hope you are right. However I believe to stem the flow and to attract the standard of pilots needed to fill both seats we will need a more fundamental and longer term review to include; allowances, flight pay, provident fund, promotional requirements etc.

If we don't get our act together sooner rather than later we will have some of the most modern and expensive aircraft standing idle picking up dust.

[shaggin yoke]

First, I don't work for Ryan Air. Never said I did. I have some friends there though. They seem to be doing just fine financially. They don't love the job but they are there to make money.

Resignations,

I think that it is marvelous that people are not turning up for courses. Market forces are beginning to bite it would seem.
The reason people fail to turn up and others are starting to leave is because EK are paying below market. My whole point entirely. They will continue to pay below market as long as people stay/show up.

EK is glamourous. New aircraft new routes limo pickup beach type lifestyle etc.
The trouble is that EK and TCK started to factor the above "benefits" into the COS. Remember they sun shines every day speech?
The fringe benefits are fine but should never replace the bottom line

[donpizmeov]

Shaggin Yoke,

I agree with you. Our tax free salary would seem to equate to a bit less than the after tax salary of other Expat airline jobs.The company knows that we like the job we do, they know we enjoy the new equipment, and until recently they knew we had no-where else to go. And they took advantage of this, and our COS were altered to their advantage. Perhaps the times are a changing. We wait in hope.

I don't think we have to be so defensive about all that happens in the sand. Our job here is only as good as our next visa blood test, or how quite out dogs are (but thats another story!!!!!).

BYMONEK. It would seem that you have taken to EK like a fish to water. This is very good news. Long may it continue.

Don

[sanddancer]

I don't think there will ever be a rush to the door but I do think the airline must now get used to no longer being a 'final destination' for many - the steady trickle we see now will continue.

The package is lacking - I have had to use savings almost every month I've been here to support the salary - the company may put a sticking plaster on the problem if they feel they need to, but, they had an opportunity to demonstrate a will to once more make the package class leading at this years pay award and failed to do so.

The quality of life could be great but, the roster patterns and some pretty brutal flight schedules seem to mean that I don't get days off - only recovery days.

The big issue that I think will begin to assume more and more importance is that, as folks have less money to invest in private pensions/property etc, the poor performance of the provident fund and the lack of pension provision will mean many look to other places for a job that will take care of them (to some degree) in old age.

Many come to the Middle East to get ahead and provide for a better future, sadly, at the moment EK fails to provide adequately for my present, let alone my future.

[mini cooper]

Simple fact:

Ek F/O salary NOT enough if you are european and still have debts to pay back home ie house. If you sell everything and take the plunge into dubai it is sufficient. Don't know how it is for everyone else but suspect it is slightly less of a problem.

Ek Capt salary OK, you can be comfortable, but don't expect to save much as a junior guy, gets better as time goes on!!

Leavers: talked to yet another guy the other day who has resigned. I now know of 8 and thats just on my fleet.

:ouch:

[Believe Brother]

Hey Don, who let the dogs out? woof woof

[Uplink]

Hey Quod Boy,

My head is not buried in the sand. What is normal in this day and age. 30 resignations out of 1200. You have obviously led a sheltered life. I have seen 35 out of 300 in my last company in the same amount of time. Do you know what we got, an extra 1% on pay. Big deal. What will happen is that a few more people will leave. It will top out at 70 or thereabouts. IMHO.

Then precisely nothing will happen and the world will keep turning. But do you know what, the guys who have left will have my respect. They will be voting with their feet. The thing you have to look at is the people joining, that is where its going to hurt most. In the general scheme of things we have had our pay rise for the year. Nothing else will change this side of April next year. People will still come, the courses are full. There are still one or two places but they will be filled. Believe me. The people coming you all are right, they are not European, but my guess is from places like Mauritius and Jamaica and the minor carriers around the world. When they stop coming then the company will be worried. Until then the company have dangled the carrot. We have had 11% and a months bonus. Thats enough in the company's eyes. If it wasnt more would leave.

Is it enough for you or are you going to depart these fair shores. If not then you will sit here and moan some more and still nothing will happen. The petrol bit is just a perk of the job.

[Shake]

Mini - Agree with your points but have to add that captains salary is not OK for the same reasons the F/O salary isn't. They are both affected by local inflation and continue to lag behind 'equivilent' carriers... obviously not the ones looked at in the recent 'remuneration survey'. Getting into the LHS doesn't solve the long term financial issues. What it does do is consolidate command hours on 'demand' types with the view of leaving to get a job which can offer some longer term stability.

Sanddancer make the excellent point that currently pay fails to provide adequately for the present, let alone the future.

Uplink - perhaps you are right. However you say that in the scheme of things not much is going to change BUT it already has fundamentally as the traditional catchment for pilots has changed to the areas you mentioned. DECs have changed things, management attitude has changed things, T&Cs are changing things.

The face of EK is changing and it will take some excellent management to get it back on track and heading in the right direction...that's the worrying bit.

[BYMONEK]

UPLINK

Please don't consider our increment in with the pay deal. We got 8% and NOT 11%. That 3% is our reward for moving up the seniority list. We should never consider that as part of a pay rise.

As an aside, what's the rumour regarding some meeting on 7th. Just Captains and managers i've heard. Any info mate?

Maybe another 7% to get us up to the 15% promised by the government.......:rolleyes:

[QNH1013]

Where do the EK F/O's leave to for better conditions and similar aircraft type?
Cathay Pacific? British Airways?

[donpizmeov]

Believem Bro,
I have heard people refer to the Monkeyman as being Barking...but was not sure that this is what they meant. Truely inspirational leadership!!! I live in awe...or is that fear?
:yuk:
I believe he also has a dislike to small rodents as well. Might be professional jealousy.

Don

[typhoonpilot]

Where do the EK F/O's leave to for better conditions and similar aircraft type?

Of those that I know personally:

One back to OZ to cropdust and raise stud cattle :ok:

One F.O. back to Ryanair as a TRI :ok:

Two to Virgin Atlantic :ok:

One who quit on an ASR, destination unknown.

Ran into a guy in Longs who is going back to SAS.

One Captain to Dragonair :ok:

If Virgin Pacific ( or whatever it will be called ) starts in OZ and Korean start hiring look for 50 Captains to be gone in a flash. Ouch, that will hurt. Also looking for the Japanese carriers to be hiring in a few years time ( can you say, "USD 15,000 per month based in North America" :ok: )

If the FI article runs true about a deal to get rid of the A340-500s and possibly the A340-600s going to Jet/Sahara along with the A380 being delayed into 2007 I would hope the company sees the light and starts transition upgrades or you'll see quite a few unhappy campers heading for the door.

What is really amazing is that three of the above mentioned dearly departed are 777s F.O.s, only one of whom was affected by the changing goal posts. None of whom would be affected by the DECs.

Once upon a time I worked for a carrier with all of 40 pilots. Five of us ( all captains ) were hired by a foreign carrier ( as DECs LHR :eek: ). All five of us went in to the boss and said we would stay in return for a 35% pay raise ( we were grossly underpaid ). The answer was no, so we all left. In the following months the company had to raise the pay to what we had asked for in order to obtain/retain guys. Unfortunately for them they had lost their five best Captains and in a few years time had their AOC revoked for numerous violations. A pity really, as the company had been very profitable and never had an accident or serious incident.

Draw your own parallels :E


TP

[BYMONEK]

QNH1013

Good question. Considering we have several pilots here from BA, such as ex B777 F/O and ex Captain ( not DEC may I add), then it's unlikely people would leave to work for BA. At least not on the basis of money alone. If guys don't settle here then sure but, in my opinion, they would be worse off in many ways. Starting salary is around £42K so that would give an approx £2700-3000 per month,after tax and including allowances. No long haul command for AT LEAST 15 years and bottom of the seniority/bid list for the next few years. Mainly statesides with 24 hrs off and probably 5-7 trips/month. No final salary pension so a realistic pension pot for a 35yr old joining now would be around £150k. That would give him/her around £9,OOO p/a with current annuities @6%. The Emirates prov fund may not be great but at least all the money is yours, as and when you need it.
Cathay on the other hand........................

[Shake]

QNH: It doesn't have to be a 777 or a 300/340 and you don't have to look far for better conditions. 15 years to command doesn't matter if you are getting paid more as a Captain at EK, even more with allowances, after tax. The guys from BA (2?) who are here are those in their mid to late 30s, who entered flying relatively late and for whom BA would not offer the 'full package' in a relatively short career when retiring at 55.

The reality is that the bottom line is money. EK is no BA. Currently there is no viable long term future here if you wish to retire back in Europe or elsewhere for that matter. It is a stepping stone for commands and then off to a contract somewhere which offers the money needed to get out of this job before you're carried out.

[Trashed Aviator]

You all underestimate the Virgin Australia longhaul op.
There is about 200 Aussies here and probably almost as many S/Africans many who have visas for Australia.
So how many of these would go to fly a 340 from home on the same as EK pay and considering the Australian tax system has been overhauled and salary is quite good , houses and rent is still very cheap on a world standard.
Many crew are interested in this 1 even f/os due for command.
So why not 200 or so over about 6 months...............:sad:

[ekcandidate]

Typhoonpilot,

I am unable to obtain a copy of the Flight International magazine that ran the article of which you speak.

Is it possible for you, or anyone else who has a copy of it, to possibly post a copy here or PM me a copy of the article?

It would be greatly appreciated. :ok:

[ernestkgann]

Nothing to do with resignations I'm sorry but have alook at the Ek380 thread on Dunnunda.

[411A]

It would appear that not only the pilots at EK are upset.


Source: ATWonline.com

Other News
Wednesday June 1, 2005
Dubai-based Emirates came under concerted attack by rival airline CEOs at an industry forum held during the IATA AGM in Tokyo earlier this week. The extraordinary debate, which lasted more than an hour Monday, started when British Airways CEO Rod Eddington posed a question about whether airlines should or should not be government-owned or protected. That set the scene for an all-out assault from the assembled CEOs, who called into question the transparency of Emirates' balance sheet and also wanted to know how the airline was going to finance its huge orders for 45 555-seat A380s and 50 A340-600s and 777-300ERs. "Where are you going to get the money?" Air France-KLM Group Vice Chairman Leo van Wijk asked bluntly. In a terse reply, Emirates President Tim Clark, who maintains that the carrier does not get a cent from the government, said the books are transparent and there are no "shady bits or pages missing." The airline will acquire the A380s on operating leases that will be financed through cash flow, he added. Subsequently, Clark told ATWOnline, "When we started in the mid-'80s, we looked at the industry mistakes and legacy problems and started with a clean sheet of paper--we are the long-haul, low-cost airline." Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon, a speaker at the forum along with Clark and Air Canada Chairman Robert Milton, also took a swipe at Emirates, claiming that it enjoys the luxury of being owned by the government, which also owns the airport and sets aviation policy. "Any airline CEO that can control the airport and the government would be making a lot more money," said Dixon. "You can't be the owner and the regulator--it is inherently wrong." Milton, who succeeded Air France-KLM Group Chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta as chairman of the IATA board of governors at the AGM, accused Emirates of capacity dumping, declaring that "what Emirates was doing in Australia was outrageous." Clark riposted that "while Emirates is flying into Australia six times a day, Qantas is making record profits."

[ekcandidate]

Thanks to typhoonpilot for the PM. :ok:

[turtleneck]

from where you come from 411:
17 billion usd for the ailing us-airlines after 9/11. did others get something? - direct subsidy.
chapter 11, including the right of protected airlines to undercut fares of unprotected competitors, especially non-us.
subsidy to implement the new, unilateraly us-imposed door-locking mechanism regulations for us-airlines. did others get that? - some, however again direct subsidy.
UK:
written off aircraft as a present to BA some years ago ....
France:
look i.e. to how much AF has to pay for it's admin building at Roissy.
etc. etc.
EK's no angel. but don't raise your voices too much, you would look like the pathetic house-speakers of Boeing and Airbus about respective gvt aids.

[typhoonpilot]

Here is another article from today:

Airbus Says Delivery of More of Its A380 'Superjumbo' Jets to Be Pushed Back by Up to Six Months


PARIS (AP) -- Airbus, which said in April that the first delivery of its A380 "superjumbo" would be delayed, admitted Wednesday that deliveries to other early customers will also be pushed back by up to six months. Qantas said it will seek compensation for the lag.
ADVERTISEMENT


"We've now spoken to A380 customers and told them how they will be affected," Airbus spokesman David Velupillai said. "The delays range from 2-6 months depending on the customer."

Velupillai was speaking after Air France confirmed it will be forced to postpone the planned April 2007 launch of A380 services.

"Airbus has advised us that there will be a delivery delay," said a Paris-based spokesman for Air France-KLM, which groups the merged French and Dutch carriers. He declined to say how long the delay would be or whether Air France will seek compensation.

On April 27, the day of the A380's first test flight, Airbus had announced that deliveries to launch customer Singapore Airlines Ltd. would take place in the "second half of 2006" instead of March, as originally planned.

Now, however, a string of customers including Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. say they will also be affected as the delays have a domino effect on Airbus production schedules.

Qantas said Wednesday that the first of its 12 new A380s will arrive six months late because of "manufacturing issues," and confirmed it will be seeking compensation.

"This is disappointing, given that we have met all of Airbus' deadlines for Qantas specifications," said CEO Geoff Dixon. All airlines with early A380 orders are going to have to wait, he added.

Singapore Airlines CEO Chew Choon Seng has also said the carrier plans to demand compensation.

Airbus declined to comment on its exposure to claims, insisting that the terms of its contracts with customers remain confidential. But it played down their potential impact on the program's profitability.

In any aircraft program, Velupillai said, "deliveries begin slowly in the early years and pick up pace later on, so the effects will be limited."


Wonder where we fit in this ? I always said that we wouldn't see one flying for us until 2007, maybe I'll have to start saying 2008 now :ooh:

TP

[LHR Rain]

Now with the 380 delayed for sure, not a rumour and possibly the 340-600 not coming along with the 500 going to India will Airbus FO ever get their comands?

This might be a way to get around the lack of pilots EK currently has on the property. Get rid of some Airbuses and let the 777 come, the airplane EK really likes, while maybe down the road they will allow transition upgrades so to throw a bone to the pilot group.

I would like to know for sure how pilots are not showing up for courses and how many EK pilots have actually resigned. Probably no way of knowing for sure. I hope your right Typhoon about all the jobs opening up in Asia. I am sure that none of EK pilots will let the door hit them in the backside on the way out to better jobs.

[Trashed Aviator]

Simple resign and come back as a 777 F/o....
If you have 2 years with EK already you will get a command in 1 year on the 777 when you come back..............

[journeyman]

LHR Rain,

So the -600s aren't coming and the -500s are going to India are they? Good one.
That's what I like about you - you never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[Mirv]

Donpizmeov,

check your pms....

[RINGAdingding]

where did my original thread go?

11 more leaving 3 this month 8 next month 4 capts and 4 fos

1.5 hulls per month 8 recruits if lucky.

cannot see the current situation working. Unless im missing something!

Very ho hum:ok:

[waldorfin]

For those of you truly interested in EK please don’t believe this. Follow the threads and you will see what kind of gentleman is posting these inaccuracies. EK is doing well, just placed a massive order with Boeing, hopefully this will be the last of the AB orders.

[Led Zeppelin]

Waldo

You would appear to be FACTUALLY INCORRECT according to the information on the web site.

Now run along and play with the other 3 year olds.

[waldorfin]

Great Band
Now, to what “web site” would you be alluding.

[Ahad Adump]

Waldork, old pal.

Go to crew portal
go to web applications
go to rosters
click on duty
type "rg"
scroll through all dates
when it's his last day you will see crew name
add all names together
easy

why mislead others?
it's like saying to your friend: "kids, best thing ever, you must try it"
then when they steal his booze and water it down to keep bottle at same level, he will know........you mislead him.

[waldorfin]

Let me try and expose what is going on here. If one had to believe fools like Shake, Ratpoison, excrement etc to many looser’s to name, there would be no more drivers in EK. Fact is people are joining. Yes some are leaving however the attrition rate is comparatively low when compared to airlines of a sort.
These guys hide behind this web site and try dissuading people out there joining. Meanwhile they stay!! Funny isn’t it. What they are trying to achieve borders fraudulent. They are keeping wanabee’s away so that they can satisfy their glutinous greed in hope and sway that they will get a pay rise. Shameful I say. But that is exactly what is going on. If they were so unhappy they would just leave. FACT; they don’t. No arguing that one looser’s. Oh they will insult me and try and confuse you all with nonsense. If you are thinking of joining DO IT. Stay ahead of this drivel and you will be blissfully happy.

[RINGAdingding]

mr waldomuffin

my facts are just that buddy!!

at the end of nov we lose another capt and 2 FOs

At the end of Dec we lose 4 capt and 4 FOs.

you making me out to be a liar on this issue is extremely distasteful and stinks of excrement!!

Now then if you want to see the facts buddy go to crew portal go to rosters then DUTY type in RG then scroll and click end of NOV OR DEC whichever you prefer click CAPT and FO box and voila you have your FACTS!!

my comment is purely to let the UNINFORMED know that this place is far far from the holy aviation grail that people are searching for. So why are you worried!!

Keep Recovering!!

:ok: :ok:

[kokkos]

Mr balonchin, I think you have been made.
I can confirm the figures on crew portal, as reported and confirmed by Ring, Led & Dump
You obviously do not have access to this portal and are a fraud.

Things are not good here. Unless you are living in a dumpster and dress your kids in newspaper, stay where you are. Wait until things improve before joining. See all EK related threads, same message everywhere.

[00bultril]

Hey Wally

NO one said EK has no pilots left (yet).
The resignation rate is % wise the highest in EK history.

Something is wrong

You can't attack guys for posting facts, or are you running scared that your dream job is turning to fudge and you might uproot the family again.......and start at the bottom again.

That is if you are an EK driver at all.

[SecurID]

Waldorfin,

I used to read your posts and would agree with you in some aspects and consider even that you had a healthy attitude towards to the never ending negativity posted here, this despite the fact that I have also posted negatively myself. Your intelligent and sometimes pragmatic views were a healthy antithesis to some of the less informed opinions expressed.

However, what you have stated here now is both factually incorrect and uncharacteristically emotional. I now have to agree with the previous posts and say that you do not appear to be who you claim to be.

If anyone is in doubt, at the end of November 1 Captain and 2 First Officers left Emirates. At the end of December 4 Captains and 4 First Officers depart the sandpit (one Captain has already left despite being included in the December figures.) As a percentage that represents 0.6% in one month alone, that is certainly a statistic that cannot be ignored.

For those of you reading this that are not familiar with Emirates' crew portal, we have the ability to esaily see who has resigned each month as described below, this is a fact and anyone disputing this has nothing to do with Emirates' Flight Operations department.

Why some people claim that this existence, for that's what it is, is a pseudo Nirvana is beyond me. Life in Dubai is a struggle, life working for Emirates is constantly without recognition (ok, granted, one carefully worded letter from AAR) and the hours per month flown are steadily increasing.

[waldorfin]

You guys are pathetic. Offer a little resistance and you’re a ****. Grow up lads.
“Life’s a struggle in Dxb”. Now it’s against comments like that that I want. OK I was wrong about the resignations. I verified them. I remain sceptic though. What’s happened to all the Safa’s that were meant to leave. For every rumour of resignation one hears perhaps less than one in a good number materialises. Deny that!
We have also got to a stage in EK when we can expect some resignations. People have done their time and want to go home. What irritates me is those amongst us riding this and twisting it into negative martyrdom.
If you’re unhappy in EK go home quietly, don’t bring down the morale for the rest of us. EK is growing, it is no longer the flying club that it was a few years ago. With that comes adaptation towards change. Some of the change runs against out favour but the most of it secures somewhat of a future. I am willing to accept that. I left my last company because I was unwilling to accept what was going on there. As a grown up I sourced the industry, found an alternative and presto. I didn’t hide behind an anonymous forum bleating myself into hysteria in the hope that I could change the management of a billion dirham company. What fools you are.
EK WILL ride out the 0.6% resignations they had this month into December, I guarantee that. Unfazed by petty individuals like your selves. The only bearing you twats have is against your own colleagues by driving their morale down with leanderthillic drivel and post dated argument.
Instead of wasting your time here get a hobby, come to the club and I will buy you all a cold one. I will even prove that I am just a driver like the rest of you. A happy one though.

[Backwater]

W.
You are not a driver like the rest of us.

[ratpoison]

EK is growing, it is no longer the flying club that it was a few years ago.
Hahahahahahahahah


Waldo, I'm still trying to work out what "Loosers" are.

[ruserious]

So first you claim As a grown up....... then you hurl insults like The only bearing you twats have is against your own colleagues by driving their morale down with leanderthillic drivel and post dated argument. Sounds to me like you have a little growing up to do

[Quod Boy]

Waldorf,
I think you are that other saddo "Dropp" in disguise.

Either that or you work in the office of official EK propaganda or you sure would fit in if youve not found it yet.

You sure aint a pilot,at least not a real one who works the line,training, or receives CRS rosters.

Try the Disney site you will find what youre looking for.

QB



:cool:

[7x7]

EK WILL ride out the 0.6% resignations they had this month into December, I guarantee that. Unfazed by petty individuals like your selves.Wally, (or should I call you by what obviously is your first name, ‘Yewara’?), I agree with you entirely on this point. It’s how EK will ride out these resignations that is causing all the angst here, for we all know they do it squeezing more the increasingly dried up lemons it already has in its crewing bowl.

I spoke to an FO on my last trip who said he’d been called by increasingly frazzled Scheduling Officers on each and every day of his four days off immediately preceding his flight asking him to work on his days off. I know I was called twice in two days, and the hapless Scheduler apologised to me on one occasion if he was ringing me twice making the same request, as he’d lost track of how many people he’d called asking someone to crew that particular flight.

Another fellow I spoke to at CBC (one of our most senior 777 captains) told me told me he’d been called out and had been offered a choice of three flights that they couldn’t crew that day.

We all know how they’ll fix the problem, the same way they’ve fixed any problem in the past – by unilaterally changing the contract so that people MUST accept changes to their roster that involve working on a day off.

Wally, you’re either that ‘bound_for_dubai’ kid from the Canadian pilot shop who works for Kraft cheese who thinks that when you (one day) turn up for an interview with EK the recruitment board are going to be really impressed when you explain to them the incredibly inventive way you stuck up for the company against their pilot naysayers way back in 2005. Or you’re what’s been suggested already – an HR weenie who’s been tasked with dousing the flames of discontent against EK on the Aviation World Wide Web to get those recruits coming in again.

Whatever you are, you’re certainly not an EK line pilot, for you all too often display total ignorance of what any EK line pilot would – or should – know about the everyday life of an EK line pilot, and you studiously avoid any questions put to you that would require you to dsplay such knowledge. (Your ignorance of the Crew Portal comes to mind.)

As for your comments about what you say to your FOs before a flight to ensure a positive atmosphere on the flight deck, (see the other thread), I think that proves without a shadow of a doubt that you’ve never flown a multi crewed aircraft in your life. Or at least I hope it does, ‘cos if you got through the tortuous EK recruiting process with an attitude like that, that process has changed a lot since I went through it.

Lastly, the majority of the 16 Yapeas who were going to resign to go home to the job in SA didn’t go because the job fell through. That fact, (and one that many of us suspected would be the case from very early in the piece) doesn’t change the fact that their resignations were – and continue to be – written and waiting only for a solid job offer before being submitted.

[white rat]

Interesting spat - puerile as usual.

Tried the Portal RG trick only got 3 names for December. One skipper has lost his licence, other two guys I don't know.

Looks like there are 28 new joiners planned in December and 40 in January. Of course, some may not show up for the courses. But it looks like people are still interested, despite the comments (mostly true I must say, though a little overblown sometimes) posted here.

save the flaming, I am back to lurking :cool:

[waldorfin]

The same old names appear.

I never said we don’t work hard. Back in the 310 days a very bold doc walked into managements office and insisted certain drivers be taken off the roster because in her mind we were over worked.
The Rat said it. Many more will join. We have a problem in EK whereby crewing is done by another department. Both heads despise each other and we are left in the middle. Decisions take just that much longer. This is not utopia, I agree, but its not the furnace some of you describe.
Gentlemen, all I am saying is that the company is expanding at a rate of knots and that in itself produces more problems than otherwise. On the other hand though it does offer more jobs in our industry. We have guys out there who are unemployed. That’s a reality of the 21st century that we as pilots have to face. EK has continually bucked that trend. Surely we can be thankful for that fact. I have mate’s in all levels of the industry and I can tell you that being called out on days off is definitely not synonymous to EK.

[Mistah Kurtz]

Waldorfin, IF you are, as you claim an Emirates pilot, I find it deeply disturbing given your tenuous grip on reality.

The resignation rate IS at an all time high and with large aircraft orders that is a serious problem, we in Emirates are rightly wondering when that problem is going to be addressed and if they will do so in time to prevent irreversible problems in the future

[waldorfin]

Ok. Lets try and be civil here.
Why would you say I have a tenant grip on reality? I honestly don’t see it that way. And quite honestly neither does the majority of the drivers in EK. The recruitment department is working flat out to address the shortfall of pilots. Its not as if they are ignoring our plight. My last company had a shortage of drivers but refused to hire. That’s a gripe.
I just cant see the point of all this moaning. Scheduling call on a day off. SAY NO or is it the 800dhms is just too much to miss out on.

[00bultril]

Everyone has been civil except you little man.

Judging by your rant of a post this morning at 07:30 I'd say you are having a BAD HAIR DAY, little one.

[waldorfin]

Just to set the record straight for those who don’t have access to the portal.

OCT RESIGNATIONS 0
NOV RESIGNATIONS 0
DEC RESIGNATIONS 3

2 Capt. One medical. RH and GH
1 F/O GH who’s staff no starts with 36…… probably never saw the line anyway.

[Mistah Kurtz]

Waldorfin, please look up the difference between tenuous and tenant in the dictionary.

As for your statement that the majority of EK drivers are happy I personally KNOW this to be not the case, most are deeply unhappy with the downward spiral of terms and conditions and the increasing hours and the knockon effect on home life. Many ARE looking elsewhere and when a suitable offer comes up ARE leaving

As for 800 DHS on a day off, this is a laughable amount to give up one of your valuable (and increasingly rare) days off. Charter companies in the UK are generally giving about six times this amount for working on a day off

[waldorfin]

Kurt
English is obviously not your first language son. You spoke of a tenuous grip. I replied by explaining that as a tenant, I own my thoughts. This may have been lost on you chap however we live and learn. Lets dispense with the literary garb and onto the facts please.

So its 2 RESIGNATIONS and 1 medical.
FACT?

[Vorsicht]

Anone care to comment on the rumour that the last pilot in the recruitment process has recently resigned from that job.

[heywood u bleume]

I must have a different portal to Mr Waldorfin. Just checked and it was 3 resignations in November, (1 Capt. and 2 FOs) and 7 in December, (4 Capt. and 3 FOs). I don't know why we are arguing about it as any pilot who has access to the portal can check for himself. I think we'll be seeing that number growing steadily. In the last month I've flown with several guys who are either awating a start date, and will resign on reciept of said start date, or who are in the final stages of recruitment at other airlines. Good luck to all in their futures, including Waldorfin.... long may he continue to amuse us.

[max AB]

..my dad's bigger than your dad, so there....

[BYMONEK]

waldorfin

Although there are a few points I agree with you on, your one sided view and insults to other posters negates many here from siding with you.

What I do agree with is the constant negativity that's posted here along with sometimes exaggerated figures to spice up the problems. And yes, there are the same names constantly bleating about Life in Dubai and how appalling Ek is. These people, like you, do little to engender support from the neutrals amongst us because their views are usually so bias. Genuinely, I believe that the majority are happy with Life here but are frustrated by the small things which can be easily rectified.

Many who've been here a while have seen some degredation to their quality of life but that, unfortunately, is a problem that's been facing the Airline industry for a while now. What many here resent is the eroding of conditions when the Company makes record profit year after year. Yes, it gives us job security but there are signs that the job market is turning in favour of pilots so lets not be sold out. How would the Company go about cost cutting if we ever, God forbid, started losing money. I dread to think. So, what can we do?

Tell the truth. There's good and bad here as there is in EVERY Company. Guys on the Airbus have been working busy months and shortly, if not already, the Boeing guys will join them. The moral question of working on your day off is a thorny one but personally speaking, I don't. Not because I want to screw the Company but because a day off to me is worth considerably more than what we get......and that's if you actually do end up getting it. It also masks the fact that we are short and it delays recruitment and promotion. And besides, I feel we do enough already on our days off such as keeping up with ammendments, crew portal, visa aquisitions and guys giving up days for physc tests and interviews for upgrades. If the Company want you to get a visa, roster it. If they want us to become Captains, roster it. HR don't come in on a Friday so why should we! And issues such as allowances. We already get a reduction based on the discounts offered but do we all check if that always covers it? You will be surprised. Why give £5 breakfast allownce LHR when it costs £5.50 ? Why give us £7 at LGW when an English breakfast costs £11.37 ( after discount). These are not isolated examples.

There are many things Emirates do that are good , especially when it comes to personal issues or health, but until the day we have a designated Pilot rep who can liase with the Company over the little issues, the ones that really start to niggle and wind people up, then these forums will always be a breading ground for frustration and exaggeration.

And while this happens, we will to struggle to maintain and recruit the high calibre of Pilots needed to ensure we continue to operate safely and efficiently.

This is OUR Company so lets not destroy it.

Regards

BYMONEK

[Andu]

There are many things Emirates do that are good , especially when it comes to personal issues or health, I have to endorse that comment 110%. For all its faults, perceived or real, to date EK have been superb in its dealings with pilots who have suffered health problems, be they from illness or accidents. So for any pilot considering joining EK, mark that point as one of the distinct plusses in tallying up the points that aren't written into your contract.

Changing tack completely in mid post, the following message is addressed to HR: Gents, Waldo's definitely passed his use by date. I suggest you retire him and come up with a new psuedo pilot identity.

[SecurID]

Just had a thought. HR Manager is in meeting with Flight Ops management, they want to find out who these people are on PPRuNe that are debasing our fine company. "I know!" says Flight Ops manager, "If we can trick them onto signing into the portal at a specific time, then we'll trap them!" "How do we do that?" says HR manager. "Well, we create a false ID, get teh guys really wound up and get them to search up something on teh portal, like resignation numbers. If we feed false info to the general public, the guys will react but first they'll sign in to the portal to see what is the truth! They will next go onto PPRuNe and report what they have found out!"

In other words, SecurID sees something written by someone called Waldorfin that he knows to be wrong. But before he replies, he quickly checks the portal to see the correct facts. Result? At 1230hrs GMT, SecurID logs into PPRuNe, reads post. At 1232hrs GMT logs into the portal using real name, checks resignation numbers. At 1234hrs GMT he posts the fact that there are really 8 pilots on the resignation list! Mangement now know that SecurID is 'probably' staff no. s123456 who logged on to the portal two minutes before posting on PPRuNe!

Cue that X-files music..... de de dede de de dede

[kokkos]

Secure

No need for that, your URL # carries the address of the last web address with to the next.
Old porn hunter trick.
They can't see what you did, but they can see where you been.
Always visit crew portal after "big boob" site, makes them laugh.
They can find you if they want.
Ask the guy that posted the JNB safety report.
Wish you knew this earlier??

[comet4c]

My fair comments :

Those who stay .....Enjoy
Those who leave....Good luck
Those who think to join..You are most welcom
Those who intend to leave....Think twice

Overall.....EK will not shake because of small group that decide to change the weather

[mini cooper]

EK will have to shake up if they don't get enough pilots joining and people still leave!!

PS when browsing the portal the other day saw a manually entered flight by crewing for a pair of lucky pilots DXB-MCT-DXB-BKK now please don't tell me that this was because we have enough pilots!!

:{

[harry the cod]

Well now, that IS interesting. Must have been a daytime departure to fit a 3 sector day into the FDP. Muscat is short for sure but BKK is hardly short haul. If this is the start of a plan to get more productivity from their pilots then that is EK's perogitive but don't expect me to get into an Audi A6 to end up at CBC 50 minutes before my 'report'.

Harry

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Your a dumb little ***k Comet ,
EK is nothing more then a ******* chain gang , the UAE treats all expats as slaves and you can never become a local yourself and you will never fit in.
Its way dangerous on the roads as the rules dont apply to locals and if they do the penalty is not the same.
EK treat people like **** and i think a charter job in the UK would run rings around this place.
Not to mention the appaling standard now , if only the public new.............

Im not saying dont come here just dont make it a lifelong career , youll be way dissappointed.........

:mad: :mad: :E

[BYMONEK]

Scooter

Everyone on these forums is entitled to their views and there is no harm in healthy debate, but to launch into Comet for his harmless posting is bang out of order.
You show yourself to be no better than the people you so obviously despise here in Dubai by not allowing others their opinion.
If you want to gain respect you'd be wise to show some civility towards people and to make more effort with spelling/punctuation before calling others little dumb ***k's! :*

[Dissapointed]

No, he's not dissapointed, I am! I agree with everything you said though.

[Eliason]

It's fun to see that the "civilized" users of this forum have been registered for quite some time now - whereas some of the new names tend to through insults around at ill will... :( Maybe age tend to mature some people ;)
Scooter - sorry to say - but you do remind me of the cheesy poster Mascarpone who raged around in this forum a lot - found another of your names again? :hmm:

As for joining and hiring - there always seems to be a certain lack of people - on both sides of the door... I only hope that in the front it's not the same as in the back: the need gets bigger - the standard of new joiners goes down... Let's only hope that the rise of the Dollar again makes it more interesting for people to come, might solve some of the problems again... :rolleyes:

[Sheikh Ahmed BinSaif]

u com to yetihaid moonee fairey gud yand fli fairey naice u laike yevereebodee

[pintofstella]

say that again in english!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ruserious]

Eli, pretty sure Scooter is not anything related to cheesy as a lot of his posts are not far from the mark, maybe he's having a bad day.

[Eliason]

Ruserious, if that's the case I must apologize to Scooter... :( it's just that his choice of words, typing... seemed a lot like cheeseys...

As for Sheikh Ahmeds:
" u com to yetihaid moonee fairey gud yand fli fairey naice u laike yevereebodee"

Let me see if I can get to english... :)
"you come to etihad, money very good ? fly very nice, you like everybody " :uhoh:

Hmmm :confused: , well - nope. Guess I didn't manage :\ Anyway - enjoy the day in the sun! :ok:

[tiramisu too]

I feel so bad for you little pilots in the sandpit, I don't know what to say.......

It must be hard coming to emirates and not getting the clout you thought you were going to get as a driver.

But hey you grow and you learn these robes are not so stupid after all, and the best bit is that they got you in a cage running like rabied rabbits one after the other.

Reminds me of the SQ F/O contracts

Keep running!

[SecurID]

One of the main ingredients in Tiramisu is Mascarpone Cheese. Guess what guys? She's back!!

[Eliason]

Talk of the sun and here she shines! :D

Or was it: Talk of the devil ... ? :confused:

Anyhow... hi Tiramisu... :hmm:
I keep wondering why you keep your job if you only complain... or do you just complain about the pilots complaining? Couldn't ever figure that one out... Whatever... Enjoy your life in UP-tower... :rolleyes:

[tiramisu too]

It is a well known fact that once used to a smell, humans have a tendency to seek the same smell for their own comfort, no matter how bad it is...................

I let you deduce your own thoughts on that............

But in the meantime Hi guys! Leave was good and I am ever so pleased to announce y triumphant return to pprune in the not so fragrant DXB, just to meet up with the ever so conceited EK wannabes who never made it, never will and who will always complain, what's new?

I ain't complaining, but not surprised that some of you did miss me...... It's perpetual proof that even pilots all mighty next to God at 350, still need the guidance of a mere stewardess to put them right when they are wrong.

God save us!

Incha Allah!

Keep running!

[SecurID]

Hi Tiramisu, look, let's cut the crap. How about a date? Come on.... You know you want to! At pleast let me get the chance to know you better, to wine and dine you treat you to a few nice evenings out, show you the sights of Dubai and keep you away from your PC for a few days. Who knows, you might discover life?

[tiramisu too]

If anyone needs to be shown life it's you Secure ID.

what do you want to show me in Dubai, your etchings?

Wake up and smell the coffee, you speak of Dubai as if you own it, been here longer than you have bet you were still picking your pimples when I started flying.

Why don't you go down to the american hospital, you might just get one of those ladies of dubious affection to give you some attention while you wipe the Tahine from the 2 dirham shawarma off your shirt.

And if you don't know where the american hospital is pm me i'll give you directions.

:E

[Eliason]

Hi Tiramisu,
I really wonder why anyone who has been so long in DXB as you claim you have, lives in UP-Tower - if your profiles speaks truth... :confused: Wouldn't be my choice. I for one have been in DXB before UP was even built... :hmm:
Still can remember when they moved all the new ones into that building...patch after patch... my former flatmate just missed it by 2 patches. Lucky her... :cool:

By the way - what was the threat about again before Tiramisu turned up? ;)

[tiramisu too]

Hi Eliason.:8

Never said I lived in UP Tower, they all think I do and that I am a stewardess or whatever.....simply shows you how good they are at ass-you-me-ing!

Been assumed to be everything under the sun on this forum.

Drivers, what nonsense drivel

[Eliason]

Hi Tiramisu,

I know you never SAID you lived in UP-Tower - but if you look at your profile - you typed it...
"Location: UP Tower " ;) Sorry for "ass-you-me-ing" that I am able to read... :sad:

Is that an outing by the way: "Never said I lived in UP Tower, they all think I do and that I am a stewardess or whatever..."? Cause if you ain't related to EK - why on earth do you keep messing up good threats ? :confused:
Don't let "boredom" be your answer... :( - "frustration" would be more believable ;)

[MTOW]

From Tiramisu's many posts on this and earlier threads about EK, I've always imagined her(?) to be an ex-Qantas FA now resident in Dubai whose only experience of tech crew/cabin crew interaction is the often poisonous atmosphere that has long existed between tech and cabin crew in that once fine airline. I say ‘once fine’, for it no longer is, thanks almost entirely to people with attitudes like hers(?) who now dominate its cabin crew numbers.

I have never encountered even a hint of the nastiness that she(?) would have readers believe is widespread between cabin crew and tech crew in EK. I acknowledge that there are a few personalities among the tech crew who I’m very glad I don’t have to deal with in the work environment, but - full credit to the old recruiting system - I think few would disagree that such people are few and far between. However, the atmosphere Tiramisu would have us all believe exists between cabin crew and tech crew is simply not the way it is… except perhaps when she(?) is on the crew. That’s if she(?) really is EK crew.

[A300Man-2005]

Wow, this thread is great!!! I was starting to get bored with EastEnders again, now that the Chrissie Watts / Sam Mitchell storyline has eventually ended, and was wondering what to do with my spare time!

This thread is the best Soap Opera I have seen for ages, although it smacks a little more of The Bold and The Beautiful than EastEnders........

When's the next installment??????

It's great to know that EVITA has a lead role in something useful at last. :ok:

[145qrh]

Sorry mate been working, what happened to Sam and Chrissy!!!!!

ps are Pauline and Arthur back together again......

[ruserious]

Allegedly according to someone who has just had his exit interview, we are up to 48 resignations this year. I believe that AB (from the emerald isle) is number 48. The other little rumour is that they have allowed for up to 100 resignations in their planning for this year. How's that for a quality statement :ouch:
Just as well the 380 is going to be delayed

[L1011]

You might be onto something here RU.

Replace 10+ year EK captains, mostly in their mid to late 40s and with 2.3 kids (over 100K DH a year in school costs) with 50+ yr old DECs at a lower pay grade and with no kids. Thereby saving the 20% needed off the costs. Do it by treating the old hands like $&*t until they leave.

What price the experience we have of flying in these chaotic skies? No $ value attached, so the beancounters ignore it. Can EK find the number of DECs needed though?:hmm:

TC is a beancounter at heart and also a gambler. This time he is gambling with the company's future. But he's already got the manor house in the Cotswolds, so if it all goes pear shaped, a safe haven awaits.;)

[SecurID]

But he's already got the manor house in the Cotswolds

Too true. But they all have. TCK, TCAS they all have a decent package back home if all else fails. It reminds me when Laker went bust. Everyone said "Ahhh! Poor Freddie!" But what was Freddie doing? Lying in the sun beside the pool of his home in the bahamas planning his next venture! The difference is that not many will be saying poor TC, TCK, TCAS...

http://photos.airliners.net/photos/middle/0/4/8/0527840.jpg

[Quod Boy]

Indeed,according to FO I just flew with his exit interview,there were 46 so far in 2006,budgeting for 100+

DEC entry hrs lowered to 8k,new joiner,and updrade failures up,recruitment way off on the numbers.Planes will be parked unless AS is a magician.

Instead of budgeting for 100 to leave,why not budget to keep them to stay?

The sound of silence and total denial in communication is astonishing.Just unbelievable as EK tries to expand we hear NOTHING as to what is really going on at the coal face.

The pub awaits.QB

[Outta Heresoon]

If they are planning for 100+ resignations this year don't expect much in May. Sounds like they have already factored in the bad news. Perhaps underestimating departures yet again of course.

[Schnowzer]

I do not believe the 'budgeting for 100+ resignations' rumour. I know for a fact that the man in charge of Flt Ops manpower couldn't run the budget of the average 10yr old's piggy bank!

The fact is that the reason we are up a creek without a paddle at the moment is because there was no flex. Not for sickness, training or any other type of absence; unbelievable! Flt Ops are cautiously optimistic that the new manpower budget might actually cover a few of these blindingly obvious areas. But, if you think the company is budgeting for resignations give me some of the stuff you are smoking; it will relax me even on the SZR.

[chinawladi]

One more reason NOT to pick up the phone on days off, NOT to go into uneccessary discretion etc.. We'd only cover up for a loser who screws up our daily life. If there's not a visible outcome to p-poor planning, then the p-poor planners and managers will stay and play further games with us.

[Quod Boy]

Schnowzer,

Upgrade course told by EK beancounters,that our cutting edge leaders "facoring in" 5% attrition based on last years numbers.

1600 pilots,you do the maths 100+ is a second independent source.

Desperation.The solution is make it better for those here,joining or lower the bar yet further as with the CC.

Off to the pub.QB

[Schnowzer]

Quad,

So now you believe what our bean counters say? When was the last time you believed something else that the management promised?

Oh yeah, cost neutral!

[kiwi_r4]

Post made by UPLINK May 27th 2005


Well said Alpha. I am still humoured by the rumour mill. The people that are leaving (20 this week, if anyone can name every one who is I would be glad to see the list) good luck to you all. I have to agree with Alpha, are you going to another job as an F/O to sit at the bottom of a list that will move as slowly as here.

At the moment it is the turn of the Airbus fleet to wait for their commands. A couple of years ago it was the Boeing fleet who had to watch Airbus guys leap ahead of them in the command stakes. In the next couple of years the A380 will come and guess what, the Boeing guys will watch the Airbus guys get ahead again.

Wherever you do end up, there will always be something to moan about. Emirates are expanding and there are very few out there doing it at the rate we are. I know guys in Europe who have waited 12 years for a command. So why is it different here. Because the interview promised a quick command? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that with the aim of achieving 2200 pilots by 2010 (more or less) there will be 1100 capts and 1100 F/O's. There are over 1200 pilots in the company now. So providing you make the grade the upgrade will come. Unless you are a captain already, then it will come alot quicker than on the outside. As for the DEC's they are coming on the A310 and are very welcome to it.

As for new joiners, I cannot believe that people are still basing their joining decision on things they read here. If you think we are having a bad time look up the road to QR or GF. Everybody is the same. SQ have their faults, and yes they maybe are going to get a big bonus. But it is a little naive to look just at what you are paid. There is the package as a whole to consider.

If you compare the package like for like for any airline you will find you win and loose on all items across the board. Look at what SQ are doing to their accomodation allowance. They are shafted there too. If you find a package and not just cold hard cash which exceeds what you are getting now. Congatulations you have just found your next job.

As for resignations, I think someone on here said 200. What a load of crap. The only thing that will happen here is people wont join. They wont join often because of the horse **** they read here. What that does is jeopodise everyones job here. I certainly dont want to see aircraft parked against the fence. Guess what happens then, redundencies. Then you are screwed because your command will be even longer coming as you are fighting tooth and nail with your old colleagues trying to get the crapest job just to keep you head above the water. (As an F/O)
We will all end up like the Ozzies did in '89 but thats another story.

So the long and short of it is to wait and see. If you decide to stay then dont make life hard for yourself and your colleagues, it just makes it miserable for everyone. If you are going to leave, then just do it. You will be replaced. I worked in my last job for 15 years and realised I was just a number. I expect very few would know me now. We all move on. I did and was replaced.

:ok: :ok:




Hi Uplink,

I'm interested to know if your view has changed since twelve months ago. Or feel free to add!

I'm not trying to be rude and single you out. But you did make a valid, and to the point, post nearly one year ago.

Just interested.

Regards,


Kiwi.

[allaru]

One of the more recent resignations has an experienced A340 Training Captain resigning EK to join Cathay as a Second Officer.
Says it all for those thinking of joining EK.

[Uplink]

A post from one year ago. I had to read it a few times to remember what I had said and the intention of my transcipt. This should be interesting, a snapshot on opinions and life a year on. I will give it a go.

If my memory serves me right this would have been written just about the time we had been paid and received our "bonus" At that time from what I can remember the big boss had allowed the lesser bosses to part with 20%. I think I am right in saying at the time I wrote this we had received a 3% increment and 8%.

The first question is, how many have resigned since then. It certainly wasnt the number 200. I think following the pay rise it wasnt even 20. However this year, January onwards ,I think the figure 45 has been batted around. I am under the impression that this figure also includes the guys who have not turned up for courses. More about that later.


My first couple of paragraphs dealt with commands. What has changed since then. Firstly the Airbus guys are still waiting for their turn. The Boeing Fleet have now used all presently eligible upgrades for the moment. The Airbus have been offered a chance to have transition upgrades, not sure how many have taken up the offer. This includes the ex Boeing F/O's who were the last to go through transition upgrade and ended up on the Airbus. I am seeing some familiar names coming through from the airbus fleet now. The one thing that has changed is the DEC's. For that I stand corrected. Last year the only DECs coming through went to A310. Now they are coming to Boeing. I am led to believe that the number 90 was again suggested. Or more to the point required. Further to this, that number has not been reached. The EK roadshows have not amounted to much. The DECs we are getting generally speaking are candidates who have little or no experience on wide body, glass cockpit and world wide travel. It seems that the main body of candidates have come from 737's and such like. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Certainly a recent joiner from the US and is now being slated on this forum, may have sent a huge message to the outside world.

Recruitment is still going on. The change here is that the pilots have now become involved again. This I am glad about. My statement concerning people not joining still stands. Several senior bosses have been heard to say that they think 5 aircraft are going to be parked by august. We ran out of crews in January and I think I am right in saying 16 flights were cancelled. I dont think this was put down as crew shortages, but I am led to believe technical problems were stated as the reason for the cancellation of these flts. Something I also am led to believe will not be repeated. Theshow still goes on though and pilots are still coming here. The experience level has however significantly decreased. There is, in addition, a large increase in pilots not turning up for courses. eg, a course of 8 and 2 appear. I do however see posts on here about people still inquiring about whats it like in EK. I stand by my comment that they should come and find out for themselves and not base their opinions on things written here.

Resignations; I would be very interested to find out how many have actually resigned in the last 12 months. In addition, how many will resign in the next 6months. On the crew portal under duty you can still enter RG in the duty column. There have been only 3 in the last 3 months. One Boeing Capt and 2 F/O's. Thats all I can see. Unless more people are leaving. Many people write in that their resignation is in, but I do not see their names appearing. It may be worth opening a post as to who is leaving and we can then get an idea on numbers. My best guess by this time next year would be max 5% of the total pilot force here. That is only an educated guess. That would equate to about maybe 80 pilots.

As far as the package goes, we have had 2 increments and 15% in the last 2 years. Is it enough......NO. The question is though, the package as a whole. Here I mean the package not just the money. Is there any airline out there that offers significantly more. When I say significantly I mean in the range of 20% more. This would be the only amount or more that would tempt me to move, otherwise financially it it not worth it. (for me). I made a statement about other airlines last year, and with the exception of CX I dont think alot has changed. Everyone needs pilots, everyone is offering about the same as a package. The package suits some but not others. We are getting people coming in from Ryanair, as quick as we are loosing people to the same company. Maybe the 2 should meet in the middle and ask each other why they are leaving their respective companies.

Overall, the only thing that has changed my views from a year ago is the introduction of more DECs. I am not a big fan of this. The rumours of them getting more money last year was not entirely correct. The figure of 38,000 dhs a month was batted around for a while. This figure I am led to believe was quoted by the bosses. It did however include the pay and part of the package. It was not the cash payment alone each month. I am disturbed to hear this raise its head again. In additon a few replies on the site from pilots who have been offered this. Though I have not seen any DEC enter the company on this enhanced salary. I think from the EK perspective it would be a very very unwise move. The F/O package is still very inadequate. The dollar is now dropping, and the cost of living going up. That needs to be addressed more than anything.

For the future, and this is mere specualtion, I think they have tested the water with this payrise. I think it is inadequate by a long way. I think I am right in saying that in 1989 a mid financial year payrise was awarded (30%). This may happen if they park aircraft. Not necessarily to that amount, but something to plug the hole. I see a reshuffle in the senior management happening. Top man going side ways and 2 slightly less senior going up. The question that finally needs to be asked, is how much of an increase in pay would people actually have been satisfied with.

Kiwi, I hope this gives you some kind of insight into my views a year on. A year is a long time in the world of aviation. For me, I still enjoy my job and my life. I work hard but not too hard. A gentleman posted a quote the other day. He was from a charter airline in Europe. This is some thing I can identify with. He stated that He has not received his roster yet and when he does it will change many times before the end of the month. He is rostered 104 hours. The only message this sends to me is that the grass is not any greener.

:confused:

[Uplink]

Just checked on the crew portal and saw for June 3 Capts and 3 F/O's have resigned. Any more ???

[dunerider]

Very good post Uplink, the facts without emotion. You quote the 30% mid 89,however, don't you think that the management use the overtime to try and hide their actual required pilot numbers? Unfortunately, individuals working on days off won't help improve our situation either, obviously for some this is a financial decision and they may have no choice. I am going to watch the portal in the ensuing two months with great interest to see how successful the Jetstar campaign has been. My prediction is 14 captain resignations and fortunate for EK that Jetstar are not interviewing any 777 pilots, as this figure would no doubt increase. I am not saying that the Jetstar package is a good one, by any stretch of the imagination, however, for a lot of Aussies it offers a chance to get home. Prune overall is a lot quieter than normal, guys would appear to be now actively searching for alternatives and have realised that EK are probably never going to change any of their policies. Even the most hopeful have now resigned themselves to this.

[gl69]

There has been many more than 3 pilots leaving in the last month. ED said about 3-4 weeks ago that there were 42 pilots since the begining of the year. I know personally 5 Airbus captains that have submitted their resignations in the last 4 weeks and one is that metioned TRI going to CX as a 2nd Officer.
Emirates long ago took away the resignation list from the crew portal so I am surprised as anyone that 3 pilots have their names listed there. Maybe, just maybe those 3 names are just a rouse to get the word out that "only" 3 pilots have left when we all know that many many more have left. All according to ED not the pilot rumor website. Your mileage may vary.

[BYMONEK]

allaru

All it says is that this guy may be leaving for several reasons,some of which could be personal. It MAY have little or nothing to do with Emirates itself.

[brokenenglish]

Doubtless the same could be said about the ex Ryanair Training Captain who joined EK as an F/O around two years ago and now appears on the resignation list for June. (TRI to S/O CX not on that list by the way).

And I doubt his annual bonus will cover his bond.

Seven on the list for June, at that rate the recruiting and training workload will be increased by 47% over and above the requirements for the present program of one B777 arriving each month.

And then there's the 380.....

[uplock]

Are not most resignations for personal reasons....why would you be so foolish to state the obvious reasons for leaving at your exit interview. I kind of remember something about matches and bridges...

Your not going to change any thing here and the H.R. guy would proberly sharpen his pencil and write"angry young Chap, well balanced though has a chip on both shoulders how the hell did he slip through the cracks mmm maybe we should employ more Human Resource People to make sure Angry Young Chaps do not slip through the cracks.

Liked your post Uplink, Im trying to work out how you didn't run out of ink or patience.

My money is on 50 Plus guys resigned so far

[kiwi_r4]

Hi Uplink,

I appreciate your reply and thank you. Obviously the payrise/inflation issue will have some bearing on your happiness in the future. But I was mainly interested to know if your enjoyment in the job was still apparent today as it was a year ago. You have kindly answered that.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Kiwi.

[AIMS by IBM]

I heard that EK may have a recruitement ban hanging over their head.

[Can't think of a name]

Dear Uplink,

Excellent post sir, its nice to read intelligent comment!

Cheers.....CTOAN
:D

[Ghostflyer]

Hi Guys,

I understand that 10 Trg Capts have just resigned to go to either Jet Star or Airbus. I checked the portal and in June and July we had 6 Capts and 5 F/Os go, looking at the names I am pretty sure they are not the 10 from above.

If we add them all together, the annual attrition rate is running at about 6% and we have lost a bunch of our Training Capacity. So what is the solution? Is anyone actually lead turning the recruitment to cover the losses or are their heads still in the sand. I suppose, as I write, the managers are trying to work out the policy of how to employ DECs ahead of qualified 3 year F/Os on the 330. Why fix the system when you can add another band aid?:=

[MR8]

If these guys resigned end of june, they stil have to work untill end of september, so don't expect their names to show up on the portal before september.

On the other hand, you can expect an email with some training vacancies pretty soon, since they do need trainers desperately...

MR8

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

There's a story in this week Flight International about the increase in alt busts and air traffic control violations (accidental) in Australia by EK.

How much of this can be put down to fatigue?

I think EK's entry requirements are way too high and is affecting the number of new pilots EK can hire. Why not look at turboprop pilots for example?

The argument that they lack jet ttime is bollocks, it's aviation exposure and experience that matter, jet or turboprop. Some turboprops are way harder to fly than a jet in any case, ie, the Q400 is a pig to fly I'm told.

Blue Foot

[Azzurri]

Just wondering what you meant by refering to the Q400 Turboprop as a pig...is it hard to handle, under-powered, or something to that effect?

Azzurri

[ruserious]

Fatigue may be a factor, but I think there are other possible causes.
The implementation of FANS, CPDLC and ADS has meant that most of the Australian over-water controlling is now automated and communication is through a keypad.
As there are numerous subtle differences around the world on how this style of controlling is achieved, there is opportunity for error and misuse of the new system, which voice control overcomes much more naturally.
Finally the Oz ATC chappies have to rate as the most anally retentive, nit picking bunch on our global network. You really get the feeling they are dying to find fault. I am sure that Mr Dixon would also encourage any finger pointing with regular boxes of doughnuts to the boys as well :O :O

[ShockWave]

A bit off topic guys!
But you have to keep in mind that Australia and Qantas invented aviation and the only correct way is theirs. What you can get away with in bombays air space will get you in trouble in OZ. PLay by their rules and they can't make fun of you. with at least six hours in the seat there is plenty of time to read about them. Even the locals find it hard keeping ATC happy down there.

[Payscale]

Azzuri and Blue Foot,

The Q400 is not a pig to fly or underpowered. Actually overpowered if anything. Rotates to 18 ANU as per SOP. That more than most jets. Problems in the start phase, but that is normal to all new launches. Just look at the A380....

I agree people coming from turbo props would fit just fine here. We have a bunch of guyes who just have piston seminoles, when they arrive. The cadets. That work out fine after the bridge course.

There are people here who came straight off turbo props and have done just fine.

Best of luck

[Backwater]

"So don't blame Australia, it's a twisted form of hero-worship of the English that caused the situation....."

Good grief! Now you're blaming the English! Get over it guys. And if you're looking for good controllers look no further than England. Up with the very best. Efficient, relaxed, professional. Not stroppy and anal like their antipodean cousins.

The 'retentiveness' of the Aussie controllers reflects a national malaise. In a country with a reputation for being laid back I've never seen so much red tape outside of the third world! With ATC, include customs and immigration, police, bus and ferry drivers, pilots (of course) and even ice cream sellers. They're all the same - big issues to resolve, lots of past to get over.

Taking cover...!

[ironbutt57]

Are you sure muttley?:eek: :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

The Brits have just worked out they made the wrong island a prison...several hundred years too late...and dey are not 'appy:} :E

[Ghostflyer]

It wasn't the Wright Brothers that flew first, it was the Wrong Brothers and they are from Brisbane!:ok:

[CRS]

As a Brit EK Boeing driver never really found a problem with Aussie ATC. Sure a bit retentive but the ATC infrastructure is excellent. When ATC screwed up going into Sydney the other day most apologetic. No drama. Certainly a breath of fresh air after having enjoyed the skills of Jakarta and Bali for a few hours.

I feel some of the problem may be the ACARS setup on the bus. I believe it is not very user friendly.

One question though. Why no Cat 2 ILS's. You do get fog!

CRS

[waldorfin]

If its Brisbane then surely it’s the WONG Brothers!!

[Veruka Salt]

Hi CRS,

Some good news for you . . .Melbourne is getting a CAT 2 ILS on Rwy16, and a CAT 1 ILS on Rwy34 (currently requires a VOR/DME approach).

No such plans for Sydney, however. Most fog events at SYD occur under light NW drainage flow, so Rwy34L would be the desired location for a CAT 2/3 ILS, but no space for approach lights (being overwater) prevents it - so I'm told!

VS.