Tight Turns

[Will Hung]

I recently completed, successfully, my six-monthly club dual check. Everything was fine, although, within myself, I wasn't particularly happy with my tight turns to the right. Never have been. Tight turns to the left are no problem, indeed, I even hit my own buffett on sunday, but to the right the nose and pressure on the yolk seems to be up and down like a whores drawers. My question is two-fold. Does anyone else have problems with tight turns in a particular direction, and what is the point in them anyway. Is it to practise taking evasive action ?

[davidatter708]

Dunno the proper reason why but how about mate in right hand seat wants to take pictures of top of house doing a left hand one wouldn't be much help. I dont have any difficulty with them however the yoke pressure does change a lot more than on a left hand one. I think its just one of those practie makes perfect or close to.
David

[S-Works]

Prop reaction and change of view.

Just practice them!

[Runaway Gun]

Just elaborating on the 'picture out the front' in side by side seater aircraft.

From the left seat, in a left hand turn, you will be sitting on the low side.
In a right hand turn, you will be sitting up high, and the attitude will be substantially different.

In such aircraft, it can help for a taped line to extend on the top of the cowl, from directly in front of your seat, going straight ahead. It helps to visualise the 'straight ahead' picture instead of using the spinner as a mid reference.

I hope this makes sense.

[18greens]

Why!!!!!!

Why not!! They are great fun, whats the point of S&L flight? If the wingtips, nose or tail are not pointing straight at the ground frankly you are wasting money.

Seriously though it teaches co-ordination skills and is also used for the collision avoidance maneuver. (and its great fun and the first steps towards areobatics).

Practise practise practise and you will be able to do them without looking at the instruments.

[Whopity]

Put the ball in the middle!

When you apply power in the turn, the aircraft yaws left. In the left turn it helps you, in the right turn it makes it more difficult so use the rudder to balance the aircraft.

[tiggermoth]

3) Rolls into a coordinated 360 degree turns and maintains a 45 degree bank


Is it 45 degree steep turns that are generally tested?

[IO540]

SoCal

I can assure you that an FAA checkride is to a substantially higher standard than a UK CAA one.

I've got both PPLs, standalone, and the FAA one was harder, even though I already had a few hundred hours by then.

[ProfChrisReed]

The glider pilots at my club all agree that nearly everyone has a "natural" turn direction, and we split about 80% left, 20% right (no apparent connection with right- or left-handedness). Almost all gliders are flown from the centre line, so that's not the reason.

I became ambi-circular by practice (this is worthwhile in gliders as if you share a thermal you need to circle in the same direction as the other gliders for obvious reasons!).

However, some days I start a flight circlng better one way than the other, except nowadays it's not consistent which way. After half an hour or so, it seems to even out.

Around 1/3 of a glider flight is usually spent circling, so we get a fair amount of practice at it, in my case usually between 30 and 45 degrees angle of bank. In a weak thermal, any inaccuracy can put you on the ground, so accurate flying is at a premium - thus the awareness of this phenomenon and the practice to fix it.

I've very little time in power, but in my few flights (some from side-by-side aircraft) never had a problem circlng in either direction, though always by visual reference and feel - to me, the instruments are too coarse for accurate flying unless you have to rely on them in IMC.

[172driver]

well, I'm used to - and practice occasionally - the FAA standard, i.e. 60 degs. Here's a simple way of doing this in a 172 (all models):

DO NOT TRY THIS THE FIRST TIME WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTOR IN THE LS !!


From level flight, roll into a 30 deg bank. Now, apply one full deflection of nose-up trim. By 'one full deflection' I mean you grip the wheel at the top and rotate it to the bottom in on go - no further.

Next, roll into 60 degs. While doing so (actually towards the end of the roll-in), repeat the above trim change, if necessary 1 1/2 times or twice - this depends on the a/c, weight, etc.

Next, apply light (repeat - light!) pressure on the rudder in direction of turn to keep ball centered. Unfold newspaper (your choice) and start reading calmly. A/c will perform steep turn within +/- 50 feet (if you trimmed it right, the VSI will not move at all)). Once approaching desired heading, roll out, leading with opposite trim, as you will be well nose-up.

Great fun and actually very helpful (at bank angles of less than 60 degs, less trim) if you don't have an autopilot or GPS and need to sort out your position via VOR triangulation or just want to stay at a given height and sort out something in the a/c w/o touching the controls.

[18greens]

ProfChrisReed, '80% left 20 % right'

Its great to hear the left preference again. In the war fighter pilots used to bank on the guy in front breaking left more than half the time. I guess its down to the fact its easier to push the stick to the left rather than pull it to the right.

[tiggermoth]

On the back of the my JAA PPL Skills test pass sheet it has 45 degrees on it.

[BigAl's]

Requirement for PPL skills test is a minimum of 45 dgrees angle of bank (see CAA doc 19). I was taught to do them at 60 degrees (good fun, especially if you can hit your wake!)

If you are flying a piper, use the hinge line going down the nose. This is a great 'gun sight' for lining stuff up in turns, landing etc etc. In a steep turn aim to nail a point of the nose with the horizon.

Roll into the turn, coordinate with rudder, once past 30 dges, add some power, pitch up, add more bank until the required aob is reached. If you are loosing height, roll off a little aieleron, pittch up, roll back back on. It is very difficult to regain attitude with that much aieleron on. If climbing, slightly relax back pressure / add more aob. Don't exceed 60 degrees.

That's what I was taught anyway! :bored:

[Mad Girl]

Roll into the turn, coordinate with rudder, once past 30 dges, add some power, pitch up, add more bank until the required aob is reached. If you are loosing height, roll off a little aieleron, pittch up, roll back back on. It is very difficult to regain attitude with that much aieleron on. If climbing, slightly relax back pressure / add more aob. Don't exceed 60 degrees.

That's what I was taught anyway! :bored:

I've been doing these (in a warrior) for the last 2 weeks - and that's exactly what I've been taught too :ok:

[LysanderV8]

I too agree with Big Al. Exactly the way I was taught, but I was far less comfortable doing left hand steep turns, mainly I think because I tended to look down the wing rather than out the front, and I felt as if I could "fall", although I was maintaining height well enough. It took me a long time to overcome that natural turn of my head to the left.

[markflyer6580]

I use 60 deg for steep turns-its not steep otherwise!

I do however struggle to turn right neater than left due to me having a useless left arm and being right handed,obviously with having my right hand on the throttle my left doesn't have the strength/control to be neat.
When using a stick,I have no such probs-yokes are cr@p:ok:

[Flik Roll]

Fly using visual attitudes - it works wonders. Keep the datum attitude and apply the required back pressure to keep the datum where it should be. Also, make sure you roll the nose round to the right, keeping the datum. A lot of people have tendencies to have issues with pulling not rolling to the direction that they don't sit in. (In your case the right).

[BigAl's]

So, folks going off doing 60 degree turns is fine but don't do it in the test as it would result in a certain failure.

Yeah, in FAA land.... Like I say, CAA stipulates a MINIMUM 45 Degree aob. So Tiggermoth is quite right, if you do your turns at nothing less than 45degrees, that's a pass in a JAA skills test! :ok:

[Runaway Gun]

Do NOT trim elevator during the turn.

Just be strong, set the attitude, and pull as required.
Monitor your attitude, apply power as required to maintain speed, and refence the other instruments in between your cycles of lookout and attitude.

Then when it's time to roll out, you will still be trimmed correctly for S&L.

Do NOT apply elevator trim in the turn.

[BigAl's]

BigAl,

That's fine - but its hardly a skills test then if there is no measurement of accuracy involved. i.e. just lean it over and do any angle you want as long as it's at least 45 degrees. The examiner has no clue as to what you are aiming for and if it wanders from 45->50->60 degrees during the turn that is hardly an indication of being in control..
I agree with IO540, the FAA are more stringent in their tolerances.

btw - anybody else having a problem in replying to a post and not getting the option to quote?

SoCal APP, Yep, you are quite right FAA tolerences are tighter, but last time I looked I didn't make CAA policy. I'll make a note in the diary to pop over to the states to learn to fly. ;)

I am just telling it how it is here in the UK, which I believe has the most relevance to the original thread.. and yes the quote function doesn't work for me either, pressed 'reply' to get this.

[BEagle]

Few, if any of you, have mentioned one of the more essential requirements during steep turns....

I'll give you a clue. It starts with LOOK and ends with OUT.

The CAA's Standards Document 19 advises the following:

Steep turns (360° left and right - 45° bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive

Steep Turn.

• Demonstrate the correct lookout technique before, during and after turns
• Establish and maintain throughout the turn the nominated altitude/level and speed
• Co-ordinate the entry to steep turns to achieve at least 45° bank and maintain the turn through at least 360 degrees
• Co-ordinate the recovery from turns to straight and level flight as directed by the Examiner without loss/gain of height

Spiral Dive.

• Recognise the manoeuvre and initiate prompt and correct recovery action
• Continue recovery action without exceeding any aeroplane limitations
• Recover with minimum height loss
• Complete all necessary checks and drills

All I want to see on a PPL Skill Test is a SAFELY FLOWN steep turn at 45 deg AoB. 'Limits' are very much of secondary importance; the pilot who stares at the AH trying to maintain 45 deg AoB is likely to fail if he doesn't LOOKOUT! But the pilot who allows the height or bank angle to wander slightly, whilst LOOKING OUT probably won't!

[Flik Roll]

Beagle, it's that old L-A-I ;)
Something that isn't emphasised enough in GA land - the lookout. It's all very heads in and instrument focused so you chase the height, speed and bank and it all goes Pete Tong, rather than relying on a good bit of LAI to get a nice balance.
So'Cal APP...
People often stare at the AI subconsciously without realising.

[Runaway Gun]

I mentioned it. Can I get a 'well done' stamp in my logbook please Beagle? ;)

[Joker89]

I used to lose about 100-200 feet on entry to left hand steep turns (45-60 deg) but ones to the right were fine. I think if you concentrate on attitude then it all comes together. I was looking into/though the turn to early before setting up the right picture for the turn. A-L-A-P-A-L-A-P

[tiggermoth]

A-L-A-P-A-L-A-P

What's that?

[Will Hung]

Dunno ! I'd guess at something like ; Attitude, Lookout, Altitude, Power ? Just a thought.

[hugh flung_dung]

Lookout - Attitude - Instruments is the littany, repeated continuously.
Remember that the VSI tells you what's about to happen whereas the ALT tells you what has already happened.
If descending, maintain back pressure and decrease bank. The nose will rise, when it's where you think it should be: roll in again and use more back pressure.
If climbing, slightly overbank and maintain back pressure. The nose will fall, when it's where you think it should be: roll bank to desired bank angle and adjust back pressure.
Examiner will specify bank angle. Limit bank to 60 degrees unless you have/use a g meter and know the structural limit.

HFD

[englishal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flik Roll
Beagle, it's that old L-A-I
Something that isn't emphasised enough in GA land - the lookout. It's all very heads in and instrument focused so you chase the height, speed and bank and it all goes Pete Tong, rather than relying on a good bit of LAI to get a nice balance.
So'Cal APP...
People often stare at the AI subconsciously without realising.

Easy solution to that then is to cover it up and do it on partial panel.
I failed my FAA SE CPL first time for not looking out enough. In fact the examiner gave me a right bollocking for using the instruments, in particular AI, TC and ball and a couple of days later when I did my re-test he covered all the instruments except for altimeter and oil pressure / temperature.

It was good though, I was doing the steep turns by visual reference (forget the AI), and stalling by using the wing tips. He even made me come back into the circuit and land with no instruments, just feeling the aeroplane. He was pleased, and I was pleased because I passed :ok:

[Joker89]

ALAP Work Cycle

Attitude - Lookout - Attitude - Performance

[BEagle]

HFD - your description of controlling height is correct for MRTs, but it should be possible to maintain the correct altitude at 60 deg bank by pitch attitude selection alone.

englishal, any Examiner denying you the use of the slip ball should be given a good kick, in my opinion!

[Human Factor]

Here's a curveball. Do you have an armrest on the left side? If so, are you resting your arm on it in a left turn? If you are, it's unlikely you'll be able to do the same in a right turn so it will be less accurate.

Keep practising and don't rule out using both hands on the yoke.

[Flik Roll]

If you can fly by datums (attitude) it is very rewarding as you lose a load of old habits such as trying to chase speed/height unnecessarily and your flying suddenly becomes cleaner and more accurate.
This thread has highlighted the fact that many people may be taught to fly datums initially, then develop the habit of flying on instruments and it's not picked up on by instructors or even the student who can't figure out why their flying isn't as accurate.
Something to think about....
Could you fly accurately e.g. turn in the circuit, fly finals/final approach in the event that you had a total instrument failure? Could you pick out the say correct visual picture for say, 70kts with land flap comapred to 75kts with TO flap on the finals turn without stalling/dutch rolling?

EDIT: Forgot to add:
Not really dutch roll in an SEP, more of a roll susbisdence feedback (or so I was corrected by my geeky engineer of a friend.... :} )

FR

[hugh flung_dung]

BEagle: your description of controlling height is correct for MRTs, but it should be possible to maintain the correct altitude at 60 deg bank by pitch attitude selection alone.
- agreed, I was discussing how to correct if the attitude is incorrectly selected/held.

HFD

[Julian]

Yep have to confess I was guilty of looking too much at the instruments in the intial CPL training. I had previously done my IR and had to force myself to look back outside again.

My instructor used to thump my leg and make buzzing noises - it became like Pavlovs dog where he could just make a buzz and watch you jump :}

Needless to say I got over the habit and the lookout returned....

On my CPL test the cross check with instruments was emphasised and not a purely out of the window maneouvre although you were watched to ensure that a majority of your time was outside as it was a crosscheck and not done soley by. Hitting the wake got you extra points :)

J.