Is anyone paid for ground briefing time? [Archive]

Penguina

21st Jan 2007, 18:26

I'm rather peturbed to discover that I'm only paid for my flying hours by my new club, meaning I can work 8.30am-6pm not stopping all day (as I did yesterday) and receive 4 hours' pay.

I paid for my instructor's ground teaching time as a PPL stude - not the refuelling, discussions of training issues with enthusiastic students, doing paperwork, parking aircraft and taxi from hangers, picking up the phone, etc. etc - just the formal briefs. And I thought that was fair enough! But from what I gather now, this was a pretty unusual setup.

No wonder some instructors don't bother to take the time to ensure students fully understand everything before they fly, meaning it takes them longer to catch on!

I was expecting poverty and don't mind that, but I'm feeling distinctly put out. I guess the usual 'supply and demand' and 'that's market forces' comments are coming. I guess I'm naive. :(

FlyingForFun

21st Jan 2007, 18:45

Quite normal, I'm afraid. :{

I was never paid for ground instruction at PPL level. But - my students never paid for ground instruction. The only exception was for the series of evening classes which the school ran on winter evenings to help students with the written exams - I ran the Aircraft Technical course, and got paid a fixed amount for the course.

On the other hand, when I qualified as an IMC instructor, I was paid for ground instruction with IMC students. But my school charged IMC students for ground instruction (unlike PPL students) and passed some of this charge on to me.

(The reason for this, by the way, was because the previous IMC instructor had left because, amongst other things, he was unhappy that IMC instruction required more time on the ground for less time in the air - so he was effectively being paid less for being more qualified.)

The best thing to do is make good use of bad-weather days (and there are plenty of those at the moment). If you have a student who is solo in the circuit, for example, you can use a bad-weather day to do the long briefing on navigation (which the student will need to do before too long anyway). I found that there are enough bad-weather days that I could pretty much get all of the longer briefings done on these days, and maximise the amount of flying I did on good-weather days.

Incidentally, now I teach CPL and IR, I still don't get paid for ground school - only for aircraft or simulator time. Which is why I get particularly annoyed when the school schedule two ME students to start the course a week apart, and I have to cover the 7 hours of ground tuition twice rather than combine it together for the two students. But that's the way it goes sometimes.

FFF
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Esperanza

21st Jan 2007, 19:40

Hi Pengiuna,
FlyingForFun is quite right in what he/she says.
I'm guessing that by this time next year will have found a lot more reasons to be "put out". In my experience a career in flying has a lot more downsides than upsides.
I've only ever worked for one school where the instructors were paid for briefs, etc. This school was in Florida. From what I remember the instructors started to earn the minute they shook the students hand and stopped once they had debriefed. There was one rate for ground time and another one for flying. Whether or not this way of billing is a good idea depends on how you look at it. The US instructors weren't being paid an awful lot. Therefore the total fee for their time may well have equalled what you or I would have expected to be paid for the flight time alone.
Your comment about instructors not wanting to waste time with briefings is a valid one. Where I work my colleague gives some of the shortest pre-flight briefs that I've ever seen. Having said that, at the start of the day he's often just about to get airborne (making money) while I'm still on the ground finishing a standard 15 minute or so brief. To make matters worse the school that I work for has a booking schedule that doesn't allow for more than 5-10 minutes of briefing time per lesson. This results in me being constantly either just in time or late for my next lesson. By limiting or eliminating briefs my colleague has more time to fly and therefore make money while providing what I view to be a lower standard of training. Not that I can blame him for the way that he operates. I'm sure that it makes his day both easier and more profitable.
When it comes to ground school I do charge for certain briefs at critical stages in the both the PPL and IMC courses. For example I always give and charge for briefs prior to commencing the navigation phase of the training. The student is charged £20/ hour. This is split 50/50 with my employer.
Good luck in the future.

windriver

21st Jan 2007, 19:49

Ground Instruction is a professional service. Flying And Ground Instructors Are Professionals.

People expect to pay the going rate for professional services in this day and age... Yet very often it doesn`t seem to happen.. nobody wins.

<Sweeping Statement Which Won`t Apply Everywhere>
Historically PPL students have not paid the going rate for groundschool because it has not been marketed or delivered in the correct way.
<Sweeping Statement Which Won`t Apply Everywhere>

NutLoose

21st Jan 2007, 20:32

bogbeagle

21st Jan 2007, 21:08

Agree with Windriver. You should charge for your ground briefings. I do and so do all of my colleagues at the school where I work.

If you don't, all you will be motivated to do is to "get the Hobbs meter turning". As a new instructor, you may feel enthused and keen to provide lengthy free briefings, but don't worry, this philanthropy won't last long. If you want to eat, you'll learn how to maximise your income and become more mercenary.

Make sure that, when you do land-aways, you charge for the time spent on the ground. After all, you are still teaching.

It seems to me that the only thing you have to sell, as an instructor, is your knowledge. Don't give it away, it has cost you an arm and a leg.

Would you please enlarge on the "self-employed" bit, Nutloose?

Dr Eckener

21st Jan 2007, 21:43

The best thing to do is make good use of bad-weather days (and there are plenty of those at the moment). If you have a student who is solo in the circuit, for example, you can use a bad-weather day to do the long briefing on navigation (which the student will need to do before too long anyway).
What, and spend a whole day working for nothing? I would suggest that Penguina go home and spend all day applying for another job!

You need to get a meeting organised to change the status quo. If the course is sold as self study, then anyone requiring extra ground instruction should pay an agreed amount per hour.

mad_jock

21st Jan 2007, 22:27

There is something in the guidance to RFTO's that ground school training must be provided.

I to was on the only payed while your flying lark with a retainer.

The hanging around earning nothing was the worst bit.

And never ever consider getting the Night restriction removed. It just means you have to sit around all day and then wait even longer for not alot.

To be honest you have actually started at the best time of year. It will be a bit slack and then go mental from about April onwards. But start planning now for quiting in September you really don't want a full winter. And have a plan from the start when your going to stop for the year. Anything more than 1000 hours of SEP doesn't really help your cause. And when ever you can get the student to fly IFR in VMC. It could help out later on if there is a possibilty of a single crew job.

Have a look at this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257666) see if you can see what I was on about.

You can maybe understand now why most trial flights the brief consists of "where do you want to go?"

Its amazing what owners see as part and parcel of your job. The best ploy is to be great as an instructor and be liked by the punters. Then systematically :mad: up everything else you get bullied into doing.

windriver

21st Jan 2007, 22:35

The (apparent?) trend to self study for Ground Training is madness on every level.

Arguably each of the Ground School Subjects can stand about 2 full days in the classroom, plus some directed self study. There are solid grounds for insisting students attend this training.

Scheduling school and instructor time on a rolling basis is the way to go... irrespective of the flying programme.

If the courses are scheduled students will find the time to attend.. and pay the going rate. Those that can`t are subject to "Instructor Consultancy Fees" ie It's cheaper for them to attend the scheduled classes.

There are solid commercial benefits for the school and the instructors.

I appreciate no one will agree with me because "It's not the way it's done."

unfazed

22nd Jan 2007, 14:59

I worked for a large school in London area and students had 2 options

1 - PAY FOR ALL GROUND AND FLIGHT TRAINING INC PRICE
2 - PAY FOR FLIGHT TRAINING ONLY AND GET BILLED FOR ANY GS USED

Worked well in that if they had paid for groundschool then they attended group scheduled student briefings

If they wanted to pay as they needed groundschool then they could do that

Either way I got paid for ground briefings and they tended to be done when not suitable for flying. These were lkey ong briefs such as NAV and CIRCUIT BRIEF.

The 20 min pre-flight brief was not charged however.

essouira

22nd Jan 2007, 15:20

We charge for briefing time in a reasonable non-rip-off way. If unable to fly because of weather, students are offered ground briefing and pay a nominal amount (eg I may spend two hours doing a long nav brief and then they buy me coffee/sandwich and get charged an hour's ground instruction). It's up to them if they prefer to go off on their own and read the book though most take up the offer of instructor time.
To put it in context, I'd charge for briefing a full aircraft check or a session on airlaw - but not for a regular pre-flight brief.
Our students seem perfectly happy with this. They say they get very good value. Often, two of them will sit in together and split the cost.
Aren't there any other schools that work like this ?

VFE

22nd Jan 2007, 16:12

I get paid per hour flown however, the school I work for schedules 2 hours for each student so that equates to around an hour of unpaid ground time which is usually spent with the student in some way or another.... I prefer not to do more than the recommended 15 mins brief before a flight and that's for the students benefit - believe me, I can babble on for hours if you let me, but I'm not gonna max the student out before we get airbourne.

This unpaid hour is also taken up by refuelling the aircraft, paperwork, student records, etc (where does all the time go?!) which we all accept as part and parcel of the gig but it's hardly fair. On busy weekends we should all be paid a set wage because even if a student cancels and we have a free slot, our services are invariably used up in some other way by answering the phone or fetching an aircraft back from maintenance etc... Best thing to do is to sod off to the cafe really but that's only going to cause friction amongst collegues who are equally poorly paid.

VFE.

hugh flung_dung

22nd Jan 2007, 18:28

It's always struck me as being very strange, but in the UK the norm seems to be that instructors are only paid for flight time; it's wrong, but so are lots of things in life.
When I rule the world (which unfortunately is unlikely to happen):

aircraft charge rates will be the same, whether dual or solo,
FI charge rates will be shown separately on the invoice and will be for flight instruction and ground instruction, whether for the essential pre/post flight briefs, or the long briefs
the FI charge will vary depending on the level being taught
the FI will receive a fixed percentage of the charge rate and this percentage will be published

This seems to be a simple structure which has the advantage of showing the customer what superb value-for-money they are getting (in most cases:p) yet AFAIK there is nobody operating this way. Perhaps it's because there's a catch.
The most enjoyable places to instruct are those where there's a good "club" atmosphere and it's going to be difficult to maintain this if people feel there's a meter running. Skilfull management needed.

HFD

mad_jock

22nd Jan 2007, 19:00

The US has a system where you get gold seal or something like that instructors.

I don't know the in's and outs of it but my MEP instructor was one. And he was a very good instructor. He said when he was teaching PPL the punters had the option of Gold or normal FI they had to pay more if they wanted a Gold.

Maybe some of the US people could explain it and what you need to become one.

And HFD you forgot that women will have to pay 10% more than blokes due to the additional emotional grief the male instructor has to deal with. If they are getting taught by a female instructor its the same rate. This can be payed back at the end of the course if they haven't bust into tears, excessive hugging after solo or grabbed your knee at any point while demonstrating stalling, steep turns etc. ;)

Mad Girl

22nd Jan 2007, 19:22

And HFD you forgot that women will have to pay 10% more than blokes due to the additional emotional grief the male instructor has to deal with. If they are getting taught by a female instructor its the same rate. This can be payed back at the end of the course if they haven't bust into tears, excessive hugging after solo or grabbed your knee at any point while demonstrating stalling, steep turns etc. ;)

Cheeky bu**er!! - you seem to be forgetting that some females may enjoy all the unusual attitude stuff. Not all of us have pink headsets!!!!! :p

I haven't hugged my instructor yet. Patted him affectionately on the shoulder after he'd looked after my "very nervous" step daughter on a aeros trial lesson though - does that count??

Nearly grabbed his knee when going full flaps on final once or twice - just goes to prove I've been taught "eyes outside"!!.

And some of us give our male instructor a nice bottle of scotch when sent solo despite being all emotional at the time. I didn't cry - close - but I didn't... :p

mad_jock

22nd Jan 2007, 19:27

Well you would be eligable for a rebate then.

We would just have to check that he hadn't increased his grey hair count and he still had the same amount of hair as he started with :p

Mad Girl

22nd Jan 2007, 19:33

We would just have to check that he hadn't increased his grey hair count and he still had the same amount of hair as he started with :p

I wonder if he'd care to comment on this???

(But I'll be keeping my mouth shut ;) )

hugh flung_dung

22nd Jan 2007, 20:11

MJ, I like that idea.
Not sure where the hair's going though; hair today, gone tomorrow. :O

HFD

mad_jock

22nd Jan 2007, 20:31

You never know it might grow back after she has passed. Bit like bald blokes growing thier hair back after they get divorced.

So no Mad_Girl you won't get a rebate.

Whopity

23rd Jan 2007, 13:02

Microlight instructors charge about £15 an hour for ground instruction!

windriver

23rd Jan 2007, 14:06

Whopity..

That's sound about right to me. Between £15 and £20 per hour is a reasonable professional fee.

I don`t suppose anyone else will agree, but where volunteer instructors choose to give their services for nothing the school or club should still charge the going rate and stick in the kitty.

I just can`t get my head round professional instructors not being paid for professional services... Why some promote a self study regime or hold ground school classes for peanuts defeats me.

Ground School is part of the job description.. isn`t it? If so it's chargeable.

ROTORVATION

24th Jan 2007, 16:01

I don't normally respond to most threads, just read through them, but this topic is one close to heart.

No student will ever learn enough just from reading the books a couple of hours a night; they have to get down to the club and spend time with an instructor!!!! No quibbles.

Where I work, once the students are at 15+ hours, I politley and tactfully inform them that structured ground school is a must. We find that 60% of students take up the offer, and I book two - three hour slots at a time.

We charge 65.00 per hour, and the instructor receives 35.00 per hour of that. Great for those winter nights, or bad weather days. People will pay the money so long as the quality of instruction & hand outs & practical walk arounds are evident to them. I can back up my statement. Last month I did 70hrs of flying, followed by 32hrs of groundschool. ( 32hrs x 35 = over a grand!).

Don't wish to sound like a T**t because I'm blowing my own trumpet, cause I'm a half decent modest quiet person really, but remember that we are very highly trained with a lot of knowledge, it's only fair that we get paid appropriatly.

New students don't know how flying clubs work, so why not start from scratch with them, and tell them straight that a few hours of groundschool will do them no harm. If all flying clubs start making Ground School mandatory, we're all onto a winner!!!

Hope I haven't said anything out of term, apologies if I have!!!!!!!!

It's time to get us flying instructors recognised as being just as important and capable as any other pilot out there.

Just briefly, the flying club owners who don't do structured groundschool are missing out on roughly an extra grand in their back pocket!

Where I work shall remain anonymous, but the set up is great, the wages per month are always fantastic, even in the depths of winter! Don't see why it cant be elsewhere.

RV:ok:

Penguina

25th Jan 2007, 19:38

Thank you everyone for your replies, which both confirm that I'm not alone in being slightly exploited and also that I'm not alone in thinking that I am slightly exploited and that it takes the p1$$ a little!

I think schools think that we owe them a huge favour for allowing us to do the work we like to do and not that we've earned it by having the guts to take a risky life choice and then spending thousands of pounds and many hours, days and years acquiring our expertise. Or that if it wasn't for us they wouldn't have a business at all! :mad:

Mad Jock - your comments on the other thread about school owners made me laugh - they're just spot on! I've never come across another business where managers moan about their lot to the _clients_ even, for goodness' sake!! But I think for the sake of balance female FIs who receive comments from their male studes with 2 hours in their logbook about our ability to park should charge an additional 10% too! :ugh: ;)

VFE

27th Jan 2007, 21:16

Today I left my house at 08:00 and arrived 'at work' around 09:15.

I did about 3 hours airborne instruction and managed to grab around 10 minutes for lunch this afternoon whilst a student did the pre-flight. Other than that my only breaks consisted of two visits to the toilet.

I left work at around 16:00 and arrived home at 17:15.

That's 9 hours away from home, 6 and a half of which were spent 'at work'. My busy schedule allowed for 10 minutes unplanned 'rest'.

For this I can expect to receive 3 hours pay.

You don't have to be mad but it helps.

Sky Goose

30th Jan 2007, 17:11

Hi VFE,
You actually made me laugh out loud after reading your last post, thanks.:)
I am also thinking of persuing the FI route, as still no flying job after being qualified for 3 years. :ugh:
Have a wife a 2 kids, so by the look of things we are all going to have to develop a sense of humour when I loose my regular pay and get FI pay.
I might have to send them home to my mum for food and a roof over their heads, crazy business !
Dont have to be mad, but it helps.....spot on VFE:ok:

Penguina

31st Jan 2007, 08:14

Hi Sky Goose,

Good on you - perhaps you should continue with the 'proper job' and do FIing part-time initially? Most people seem to have something else they do, especially through the winter. I have, thank goodness! Weekend instructors don't get much less work overall anyway, it seems - just tends to be more trial lessons, etc.

Having said that, I don't have many weekends with my family/friends nowadays. :sad:

VFE

31st Jan 2007, 10:11

I too have opted to seek other work and instruct at weekends for the time being until the weather improves - apart from anything else, sitting around on your backside watching the rain making pretty patterns in the puddles does nothing for your mental well being at the age of 29. If I were 92 it may be different but it's decidedly unhealthy to be spending so much time doing so little in my opinion. To mention nothing of the fact I'm skint!

Sky Goose,

Thanks for the compliments, a GSOH is definately required in this game for sure!

If I were in your shoes and could afford the FI rating I would do it sooner rather than later. Best time of year to get cracking with it actually because in two months things will be picking up again and you shouldn't face too much trouble securing an FI job, full time or part time.

Three years since qualifying is a long time. I let it go for two years before pulling my finger out and doing the FI rating and that was more than long enough so get cracking otherwise you'll be obsolete and unemployable unless you're getting in plenty of flying through other means?

Instructing is good fun if your overheads don't exceed your income and you don't have to spend hours stuck in traffic before you even start your busy working day. That will take the novelty out of the experience because when you're fed up before even arriving at work and then faced with the onerous task of playing the 'chirpy instructor' part you'll soon start pining for the cushy office job again.

That said, when you lift off on a gorgeous winters morning at 9am with scarcily a cloud in sight as your soar away from the airfield across beautiful frost covered fields resting in the milky morning sunshine, turn and look at your student as they competently master the controls and realise you're actually being paid to do this, it's hard work trying to stiffle your grin whilst thanking your lucky stars that you got this life and not the dustmans.

VFE.

Sky Goose

31st Jan 2007, 17:19

Thanks for the replies and advice,
Yes 3 years is a long time, and no I haven't been doing much flying besides keeping my IR current and some 737-200 sim for my MCC and assessment prep.
Hence the change of tactic, looks like the FI route is the only way, was trying to avoid that route, not because of the job itself, but because of the pay and the fact that my wife and kids will have live with her parent in Sweden. Not a good way to raise a family.
I have an assessment with Ryanair next Wednesday (Feb 7th), but if I botch that I'll be selling the house, moving the wife and kids off and starting an FI rating with Stapleford in April.
Will see how things pan out, once the FI rating is done I might be able to do some contract work for my current employer part time and instruct on weekend and possibly some days during the week. Then the family could return and see if we can manage.
All rather daunting but something needs to be done, still bonkers about planes.:ok:

VFE

31st Jan 2007, 21:24

I assume that doing the FI rating part time and continuing to work full time in your current job whilst keeping your family here is not an option? If you want the name of a flexible FI instructor near Cambridge I can help you out there - he'll work around you if required.

VFE.

Sky Goose

1st Feb 2007, 09:37

Hi VFE,

Yes that would be an option, I was under the impression that they liked you to work at least 4 days a week.
I could possibly continue working for my current employer 3 days a week, but would take some savvy negotiating ! That FI in Cambrideshire sounds promising, part time FI course would also ease the burden and would be able to start sooner. All the big schools dont offer part time FI courses, thought it was not an option.

Cheers for that

Goose

VFE

1st Feb 2007, 14:59

PM'd you the details. :ok:

VFE.

RedBaron007

6th Feb 2007, 18:10

I can only speak for instructors in the United States, but I thought I'd post anyway, in case anybody was curious about how we do it. At all the flight schools with which I have experience, instructors are paid for each hour (pro-rated) they work with a student, whether it's on the ground or in the air. Obviously we don't charge for the time we're on the phone/tugging the aircraft/etc etc. Some flight schools offer different pay rates for ground instruction and flight instruction.