Held at DSA! Mon Dieu!

[Midland 331]

I'm just back from Paris, and the inbound Thomson flight (due around 1000) that I was on was held in the overhead for around ten minutes.

The only other obvious inbound traffic was a FlyBe Dash-whatever, and a light piston twin, both of which passed beneath us in the hold on base and finals.

Considering that we had picked up a ten minute start-up delay out of Orly, I was astounded that we were then held, considering the tight turn-round times of Thomsonfly.

Is there some issue with airspace here, traffic restrictions, or, as one of the staff suggested, the controllers can't seem to work more than one aircraft at a time?!

Of course, we don't see the full picture from row 17, but there were only three other aircraft on the ground, no obvious WIP or disruption, no conceivable reason for not allowing us an expeditious approach.

Anyone have any insights?

[spekesoftly]

This is just a guess, but I suspect that your flight was receiving a procedural (non-radar) approach control service in to DSA. If that was the case, then three IFR ? arrivals in ten minutes is in fact very expeditious! (The primary radar at DSA is at present fed from RAF Waddington, and their radar has been out of service for several days).

[Midland 331]

Well, thank-you!

Having been out of the airline industry for more than ten years, but having done a fair bit of jumpseating and airband listening(this thread was moved from another forum, BTW), it did seem like some kind of procedural arrival/NDB let down (forgive me if I'm mixing up/duplicating terms).

This delay was all the more galling as the terminal building is sqeaky-clean, staff very friendly, which made for a heart-warmingly rapid transit through it. To then pick up a delay due to ATC seemed bizarre.

BTW, DSA now is how airports are before they start taking themselves too seriously, and get irritatingly large. It deserves success.

Out of curiousity, do inbounds from the south route via TNT, or somewhere a bit more expeditious?

r

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I haven't a clue where "DSA" is but I'm amazed that now we have SLF questioning what ATC does..... Do you honestly believe ATC holds aircraft for fun??

[Midland 331]

HD,

>Do you honestly believe ATC holds aircraft for fun??

Absolutely not! During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow when I passed through on business, which was quite regularly. I was always impressed with the "grace under pressure", and levels of professionalism. And the nuggets of humour.

(BTW, If anyone who works/worked for Heathrow Ground reads this, bravo to you! Pint in hand, the bravo pier was my "local" and you were "the station of choice" It was entertaining listening! )

My question arose as I was baffled as to why we were delayed at a place with so little traffic. Apologies if I've caused offence! I'd not considered lack of radar service, as I would have thought that other units could have at least offered something, and procedural arrivals were an absolute last resort.

>I haven't a clue where "DSA" is..
Doncaster/Sheffield (IATA code). Or EGCN. The former RAF Finningley. I've never been that good on the ICAO codes, as I have a background in the commercial side of the industry, rather than operations.

Oh, and my post has been moved here by the mods as I posted this in "Spotter's Balcony" (although not actually "a spotter"), as I anticipated less scorn there. Never mind.

r

[Ppdude]

1. CN inbounds from south route via TNT.
2. you seriously think that atc will provide priority to a/c depending on the turn around time of company?
3.Other units will do CN's work as well as their own? I don't think so!
4.Procedural landing as a last resort? if only the SLF knew what went on outside CAS

[Midland 331]

Ouch!

I may just scuttle back and lurk after this...

1. CN inbounds from south route via TNT.

Thanks. Just curious.

>2. you seriously think that atc will provide priority to a/c depending on the turn around time of company?

Errm, no, but wondered if the delayed inbound of the major user might just get priority over a light twin in the general game plan. I've noted this at my local airfield. Oh, and a BA inbound nabbing 09R at LHR (sorry EGLL)? But not relevent, I suppose, if procedural arrivals are taking place.

>3.Other units will do CN's work as well as their own? I don't think so!

I don't know the relationships between different units, so fair point. But, are Humberside really that busy?

>4.... if only the SLF knew what went on outside CAS

Now I will challenge this one, as I spent at least ten years listening to Border/Pennine at my desk day-in, day-out, (rather than Radio Two). Great Dun Fell allowed me to hear both sides (including a few airprox/miss-sounding incidents.) I'd like to think I have a fair understanding of all the wackiness. It must make for an interesting day at the office.

r

[Single Spey]

I haven't a clue where "DSA" is but I'm amazed that now we have SLF questioning what ATC does..... Do you honestly believe ATC holds aircraft for fun??

Fogive me if I'm wrong, but don't the SLF contribute significantly (indirectly) to your salary/pension? Therefore shouldn't they be allowed to ask what is happening? :ok:

[loubylou]

Of course people can ask - but I suspect what got HD's goat ( and mine!) is the choice of words :
"astounded to be held" :confused:
"no conceivable reason to be held" :confused:

And as for the presumption of knowledge from having the frequency on in the background at work - if only it was that easy................:p


louby

[Midland 331]

Of course people can ask - but I suspect what got HD's goat ( and mine!) is the choice of words :
"astounded to be held" :confused:
"no conceivable reason to be held" :confused:
And as for the presumption of knowledge from having the frequency on in the background at work - if only it was that easy................:p
louby

Can I report the moderator to a moderator for chucking me into the lion's den?

And can we shunt this thread back to spotter's corner, please?

Maybe I should remind folks of what I said right at the beginning:-

>Of course, we don't see the full picture from row 17

...and scuttle back to the fringes, as folks seem mightily touchy.

r

[anotherthing]

HD

Good use of a derogatory term (SLF) - considering that you are SLF as well, and possibly always have been, why don't you lighten up?

The guy asked a fair question - maybe the comment about one member of staff saying that it was all ATC could cope with was a bit out of line, but then again, if thats what Crew are telling passengers, isn't it better to know so that we can educate Joe Public?

Quite often you come across as being stick up your own **s. Why don't you read some of your posts to see what I mean. I have never worked with you, but I have the distinct feeling that you are one of (the now thankfully few) Heathrow controllers who think they were/are the best, just because of the name 'Heathrow'. Christ, the log on name you use gives away your attitude.

[Chilli Monster]

I don't know the relationships between different units, so fair point. But, are Humberside really that busy?


As Doncaster and Humberside are direct Commercial competitors why would Humberside want to help? Besides which, there would be a requirement for letters of agreement and laid procedures if one unit wishes to help another.

That's what happens when you put together an ATC unit on the cheap - you get delays like those you had, and in the procedural world it's nearly always a case of "first come, first served".

[Midland 331]

To add to all this, I seem to recall the F/O coming on the PA and saying "It's rush hour at Doncaster", hence my initial puzzlement and frustration.

I suppose that saying "Oh, the radar's not working" would have the passengers hammering ont he side of the cabin in sheer terror...

A large chunk of my life used to be spent admiring the view from the Bovingdon hold, and I would never have believed that this would happen at a place like Doncaster.

On the subject of commercial competition, I'm surprised that this affects ATC units. I got the impression that you were all very much "Brothers and Sisters In Arms". Obviously not.

And on the subject of not knowing the full story from simply listening, this I concede. However, maybe it would surprise some ATC officers just how much about the unit, its character, and its personalities builds up through day-in, day-out listening.

r

[BOAC]

Can I report the moderator to a moderator for chucking me into the lion's den?
...............and I'm beginning to feel really sorry that I moved Midland here for some 'professional' help :mad: from the very horse's mouth.

I concede that the question was not phrased as well as it could have been, but I do feel that 'the hounds of war' have unreasonably been let slip here.

I fear, Midland, that the baying pack would have scented you out in Spectators' as well:) There is no escape..................

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow>

I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???

[1985]

I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???

Dummy back in the pram.

Give the poor guy a break, he was just asking a question which he is entitled to do, and to receive the amount of abuse that he did is appalling from a bunch of professionals.

He held, he wondered why, he asked a question, got a sensible and plausible reply from spekesoftly, end of.

We should be encouraging others to find out about and be interested in our profession, maybe there wouldn't be so many silly stories in the press then.

[Midland 331]

<<During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow>
I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???

Can we close this thread, please, moderators.

Thanks

r

[Talkdownman]

I have never worked with youYour loss! HD was just about THE most entertaining man to sit alongside in ATC which made working in Heathrow ATC a lot less stressful. He is a most capable, compassionate and honourable gentleman. 'anotherthing', match that. Your insulting rudeness is letting down the professional ATCOs on this forum.

[Gonzo]

Midland331, never be afraid to ask questions! I agree with 1985! :p

BA on 09R for example: We can land on either runway on easterly ops (09R, 09L) as opposed to westerlies where we are forced to land on one or the other according to a strict programme - all due to noise regulations. So if it's quiet on 09R, ie. not very many departures, we might accept one or two inbounds to land on 09R. It helps keep the inbound delay down, and if we choose T4 a/c, it saves them from a very long taxi and runway crossing. The a/c win by getting to the stand 15-20 minutes earlier, and we win by (usually) simplifying GMC.

BA are usually the ones chosen because they're the main users of T4, and most of them are Heavy a/c, which means we can maximize the spacing on 09L if we take the Heavies for 09R.

[eastern wiseguy]

<<During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow>
I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???


Bloody hell man ....get out more!! Have you NEVER done anything illegal?

HD was just about THE most entertaining man to sit alongside in ATC which made working in Heathrow ATC a lot less stressful

seems like retirement has made him into a miserable old goat!!:confused:

[Hold West]

I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???

A stupid and senseless law, but I suppose he broke it. So what?

[Married a Canadian]

SLF have every right to question what ATC does. Why not? If more did then perhaps afew myths would be dispelled to them.

Jeez if we are going to take offence whenever something is asked that we don't like then the job is going to get VERY frustrating for some

SLF landing at quiet airport..not expecting to hold...makes some guesses.....asks ATC people if he is correct in those guesses. What do we do?? Rudely tell him off.

Atcos are not above being questionned by anyone. Even SLFs. Going on the defensive makes us look somewhat sensitive :hmm:

[chevvron]

As for why a light twin got in ahead of the Thomsonfly - simple, he got there first/was bottom of the stack!
I understand from another thread (dealing with DSA's application for controlled airspace) that the radar has been installed but is not yet ready for use; whether it's a case of lack of staff or lack of flight check I don't know, most probably the latter, especially if it's one of those horrible Raytheon ASR 10's that many airports are being lumbered with due to lack of alternatives.

[Midland 331]

As for why a light twin got in ahead of the Thomsonfly - simple, he got there first/was bottom of the stack!
I understand from another thread (dealing with DSA's application for controlled airspace) that the radar has been installed but is not yet ready for use; whether it's a case of lack of staff or lack of flight check I don't know, most probably the latter, especially if it's one of those horrible Raytheon ASR 10's that many airports are being lumbered with due to lack of alternatives.
Thanks. The whole situation made immediate sense to me thanks to spekesoftly's reply. We could have stopped there!
Thanks, all, for the replies on this one. I'll take a paperback next time and not look out the window...
Oh, and regarding my listening habits;- I suppose that it was OK to listen to my own company frequency? And my company office at Manchester Airport used exactly the same device to monitor tower and ground frequencies to check if their inbounds had landed. Would they be deemed culpable as well?
And what specific information have I disclosed/acted upon?
I run my own small telecommunications recycling business which is heavily internet-based, and I am a member of a number of telecommunciations and car technical forums(I run an old Citroen). I must admit, I've never quite had the response from there that I've had from here....
But thanks for the kind and considered responses. And the others.
r

[Lon More]

Dummoes....prams;
getting more like jet blast:}

[Midland 331]

Dummoes....prams;
getting more like jet blast:}
I wondered where all that pent-up emotion went from the steely-eyed professionals. Now I know.

[PPRuNe Radar]

We should be encouraging others to find out about and be interested in our profession, maybe there wouldn't be so many silly stories in the press then.


Can't say fairer than that :ok:

[Lon More]

Steely eyed??
Not us - must be thinking of London
http://www.egats.org/index.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=201&fullsize=1
The link won't post. Things haven't moved on much since this was drawn in 1978. Thanks Martin, for keeping us smiling all those years.


Visit the EGATS web site for more (plug)

[machinehead]

Midland331
For your info the flight in question was number 3 in a totally procedural environment. The Fly Be DH8D arrived on top of a BE200 at the FNY NDB
.
Welcome to the world of procedural separation. You were lucky to be landed in the time you were. We moved the BE200 10 MILES!!!! to get the Fly Be in first and reduce the overall delay. It could have been 30 mins for number 3 at a landing interval of 10 mins (that's each aircraft taking 10 mins to fly the procedure and land, then the next being cleared for their approach).

:mad:

[Fly Through]

My, my defensive aren't we :hmm:

No wonder this forum is referred to as "...the Lion's Den..."

FT

[Single Spey]

Midland331
For your info the flight in question was number 3 in a totally procedural environment. The Fly Be DH8D arrived on top of a BE200 at the FNY NDB
.
Welcome to the world of procedural separation. You were lucky to be landed in the time you were. We moved the BE200 10 MILES!!!! to get the Fly Be in first and reduce the overall delay. It could have been 30 mins for number 3 at a landing interval of 10 mins (that's each aircraft taking 10 mins to fly the procedure and land, then the next being cleared for their approach).

:mad:

So the question that should have been asked is 'why doesn't Doncaster have radar?'. Are the flights from there so much cheaper than airports that do have radar? And if not how come Doncaster can't or hasn't installed radar yet? Surely these are the questions that the SLF should be entitled to ask.

[Midland 331]

Midland331
For your info the flight in question was number 3 in a totally procedural environment. The Fly Be DH8D arrived on top of a BE200 at the FNY NDB
.
Welcome to the world of procedural separation. You were lucky to be landed in the time you were. We moved the BE200 10 MILES!!!! to get the Fly Be in first and reduce the overall delay. It could have been 30 mins for number 3 at a landing interval of 10 mins (that's each aircraft taking 10 mins to fly the procedure and land, then the next being cleared for their approach).
:mad:

Many thanks for the additional insight. At the risk of other ATCOs pelting more rotten fruit across cyberspace, I do have a basic grasp of procedural arrivals. As soon as I received my first reply to this thread, the delay was explained. And, yes, I guess that it could have been a lot longer as number three.

Thanks for the help! I appreciate you efforts in fitting an odd mix of traffic together which had the discourtesy of turning up in the wrong order. And then you get some bloke like me asking why we got three tours of Thorne Waste.

>So the question that should have been asked is 'why doesn't Doncaster have radar?'. Are the flights from there so much cheaper than airports that do have radar? And if not how come Doncaster can't or hasn't installed radar yet? Surely these are the questions that the SLF should be entitled to ask.

For the record, It's not me asking them. They get their feed from Waddington, adequate most of the time and Stuff breaks. Halfords keep less parts for the Plessey Watchman these days. I'm surprised, though, that Waddingtons is off the air, being an active RAF station, AWACS, etc.
Let's hope that "The Daily Scum" don't get hold of this - "Aircraft Flies in Circles As Crew Prepare To Land Without Radar Help".

r

[s8grn]

<<During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow>
I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???


What a complete pr*t.

[Midland 331]

What a complete pr*t.
And this was after I'd complimented Heathrow staff on their constantly impressive work, balancing the need to expedite traffic with the need for safety.
"Go away, sonny - you shouldn't be here. you're breaking the law, and you know nothing anyway"
And there does not seem to be a straight answer to my earlier question:-
"I suppose that it was OK to listen to my own company frequency? And my company office at Manchester Airport used exactly the same device to monitor tower and ground frequencies to check if their inbounds had landed. Would they be deemed culpable as well?"
r

[Widger]

I don't think Spekesoftly has been totally transparent. Radar for DSA is conducted from Liverpool Speke Airport. When the time comes for the "DSA ATCO" to go home/off watch, DSA are left to operate procedurally, even though they may have scheduled inbounds/outbounds. The issue is, that DSA don't have there own radar/cannot afford it yet, don't have radar trained staff/cannot afford it yet and cannot afford to pay the staff at Speke to stay on to cover ALL scheduled movements.

With the expansion of operations at DSA, and its location in class G, operating without radar seems perverse IMHO. No doubt the answer will be more CAS to keep everyone else out and use the inevitable incidents as justification for it.

There....now I've done it, I've opened that box and here comes the abuse!

Just my personal opinion of course and I know that some action is being taken but, is the action matching the pace of growth at this airport?

:ok:

[RAC/OPS]

What is there not to be transparent about? It is no secret that DSA radar is operated from Liverpool, and I'm fairly sure (but not totally as I don't do DSA nights shifts yet) that procedural delays don't happen between 2200 and 0600, and as there is no military and less GA around at that time, non radar control is an acceptable risk (if you want to call it a risk).

DSA on site radar is due to be operational next month, and the sooner the better as Waddington's primary has not been very reliable. We will be going 24hours later in the year, and be getting CAS, but see no reason why that should keep everyone out.

[Chilli Monster]

We will be going 24hours later in the year,

Is that with sufficient staff, or by doing it "Uberlingen" style (switching from one console to another)?

and be getting CAS,

A brave statement seeing as the consultation period hasn't yet ended.

[Friio4]

"Is that with sufficient staff, or by doing it "Uberlingen" style (switching from one console to another)?"
An unfortunate choice of words considering the tragic consequences of that accident.
More staff are being recruited and trained to enable the unit to provide 24hr radar coverage for Doncaster.

[NorthSouth]

A brave statement seeing as the consultation period hasn't yet ended.Or started
NS

[niknak]

Or started
NS

I think it has started, but like Magnus Magnussen, it may take 70 years or so to finish....:p

[Jets R4 Kids]

Midland 331:
Look on ATC as one big family.
Just like any other family, some people are more laid back than others.
Keep listening.
Keep watching.
Keep asking.

[JustaFew]

Several units in the UK provide radar services to diffferent airspace areas from consoles positioned in the same room; DSA and LPL are no different in that respect.

'Is that with sufficient staff, or by doing it "Uberlingen" style (switching from one console to another)?'

What exactly are you inferring, Chilli Monster?

[Widger]

Yes but very few operate without any radar at all, as happens when the Speke controllers go off watch/contract time runs out!

:E :E :E :E :E

[JustaFew]

Think you're missing the point, Widger, which is 'RADAR service'.

[Widger]

No...I got the point....just yanking their chain!

[ATSAWHO]

Midland 331,

As far as I am aware, listening in to aeronautical RTF is NOT illegal. However, communication of those TXs to another party/person is on the wrong side of the law. (UK) This applies to those who hold RTF licences, as well as interested persons like youself. I think some of the earlier replies showed up quite some pomposity from the ATC staff....hmmm have I met this before in my years in the industry? OOH YES!!

Happy listening

ATSAWHO

[ATSAWHO]

OOOPS.:O I've just noticed the 'Listening to ATC Comms-the Law'. Second forum down on ATC issues. So..no law breaking to listen in..thought so! Hope nobody accuses me of law breaking, as Midland was.

Keep on scanning

ATSAWHO ;)

[rodan]

So..no law breaking to listen in..thought so! Hope nobody accuses me of law breaking, as Midland was.

Not sure how you worked that out from the quotes in the other thread.

Although it is not illegal to sell, buy or own a scanning or other receiver in the UK, it must only be used to listen to transmissions meant for GENERAL RECEPTION. The services that you can listen to include Amateur and Citizens' Band transmissions, licensed broadcast radio, and weather and navigation broadcasts.

It is an offence to listen to any other radio services unless you are authorised by a designated person to do so.

So it is illegal to listen in if you are not amongst the intended recipients of air traffic transmissions (note, these do not come under 'navigation broadcasts'), but in reality nothing will be done about it if you don't publish or otherwise misuse the information you hear. Hope that helps!