Held at DSA! Mon Dieu!
Thread Starter
Held at DSA! Mon Dieu!
I'm just back from Paris, and the inbound Thomson flight (due around 1000) that I was on was held in the overhead for around ten minutes.
The only other obvious inbound traffic was a FlyBe Dash-whatever, and a light piston twin, both of which passed beneath us in the hold on base and finals.
Considering that we had picked up a ten minute start-up delay out of Orly, I was astounded that we were then held, considering the tight turn-round times of Thomsonfly.
Is there some issue with airspace here, traffic restrictions, or, as one of the staff suggested, the controllers can't seem to work more than one aircraft at a time?!
Of course, we don't see the full picture from row 17, but there were only three other aircraft on the ground, no obvious WIP or disruption, no conceivable reason for not allowing us an expeditious approach.
Anyone have any insights?
The only other obvious inbound traffic was a FlyBe Dash-whatever, and a light piston twin, both of which passed beneath us in the hold on base and finals.
Considering that we had picked up a ten minute start-up delay out of Orly, I was astounded that we were then held, considering the tight turn-round times of Thomsonfly.
Is there some issue with airspace here, traffic restrictions, or, as one of the staff suggested, the controllers can't seem to work more than one aircraft at a time?!
Of course, we don't see the full picture from row 17, but there were only three other aircraft on the ground, no obvious WIP or disruption, no conceivable reason for not allowing us an expeditious approach.
Anyone have any insights?
This is just a guess, but I suspect that your flight was receiving a procedural (non-radar) approach control service in to DSA. If that was the case, then three IFR ? arrivals in ten minutes is in fact very expeditious! (The primary radar at DSA is at present fed from RAF Waddington, and their radar has been out of service for several days).
Thread Starter
Well, thank-you!
Having been out of the airline industry for more than ten years, but having done a fair bit of jumpseating and airband listening(this thread was moved from another forum, BTW), it did seem like some kind of procedural arrival/NDB let down (forgive me if I'm mixing up/duplicating terms).
This delay was all the more galling as the terminal building is sqeaky-clean, staff very friendly, which made for a heart-warmingly rapid transit through it. To then pick up a delay due to ATC seemed bizarre.
BTW, DSA now is how airports are before they start taking themselves too seriously, and get irritatingly large. It deserves success.
Out of curiousity, do inbounds from the south route via TNT, or somewhere a bit more expeditious?
r
Having been out of the airline industry for more than ten years, but having done a fair bit of jumpseating and airband listening(this thread was moved from another forum, BTW), it did seem like some kind of procedural arrival/NDB let down (forgive me if I'm mixing up/duplicating terms).
This delay was all the more galling as the terminal building is sqeaky-clean, staff very friendly, which made for a heart-warmingly rapid transit through it. To then pick up a delay due to ATC seemed bizarre.
BTW, DSA now is how airports are before they start taking themselves too seriously, and get irritatingly large. It deserves success.
Out of curiousity, do inbounds from the south route via TNT, or somewhere a bit more expeditious?
r
Thread Starter
HD,
>Do you honestly believe ATC holds aircraft for fun??
Absolutely not! During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow when I passed through on business, which was quite regularly. I was always impressed with the "grace under pressure", and levels of professionalism. And the nuggets of humour.
(BTW, If anyone who works/worked for Heathrow Ground reads this, bravo to you! Pint in hand, the bravo pier was my "local" and you were "the station of choice" It was entertaining listening! )
My question arose as I was baffled as to why we were delayed at a place with so little traffic. Apologies if I've caused offence! I'd not considered lack of radar service, as I would have thought that other units could have at least offered something, and procedural arrivals were an absolute last resort.
>I haven't a clue where "DSA" is..
Doncaster/Sheffield (IATA code). Or EGCN. The former RAF Finningley. I've never been that good on the ICAO codes, as I have a background in the commercial side of the industry, rather than operations.
Oh, and my post has been moved here by the mods as I posted this in "Spotter's Balcony" (although not actually "a spotter"), as I anticipated less scorn there. Never mind.
r
>Do you honestly believe ATC holds aircraft for fun??
Absolutely not! During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow when I passed through on business, which was quite regularly. I was always impressed with the "grace under pressure", and levels of professionalism. And the nuggets of humour.
(BTW, If anyone who works/worked for Heathrow Ground reads this, bravo to you! Pint in hand, the bravo pier was my "local" and you were "the station of choice" It was entertaining listening! )
My question arose as I was baffled as to why we were delayed at a place with so little traffic. Apologies if I've caused offence! I'd not considered lack of radar service, as I would have thought that other units could have at least offered something, and procedural arrivals were an absolute last resort.
>I haven't a clue where "DSA" is..
Doncaster/Sheffield (IATA code). Or EGCN. The former RAF Finningley. I've never been that good on the ICAO codes, as I have a background in the commercial side of the industry, rather than operations.
Oh, and my post has been moved here by the mods as I posted this in "Spotter's Balcony" (although not actually "a spotter"), as I anticipated less scorn there. Never mind.
r
Last edited by Midland 331; 15th Jan 2007 at 15:51.
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DSA aka EGCN
1. CN inbounds from south route via TNT.
2. you seriously think that atc will provide priority to a/c depending on the turn around time of company?
3.Other units will do CN's work as well as their own? I don't think so!
4.Procedural landing as a last resort? if only the SLF knew what went on outside CAS
2. you seriously think that atc will provide priority to a/c depending on the turn around time of company?
3.Other units will do CN's work as well as their own? I don't think so!
4.Procedural landing as a last resort? if only the SLF knew what went on outside CAS
Thread Starter
Ouch!
I may just scuttle back and lurk after this...
1. CN inbounds from south route via TNT.
Thanks. Just curious.
>2. you seriously think that atc will provide priority to a/c depending on the turn around time of company?
Errm, no, but wondered if the delayed inbound of the major user might just get priority over a light twin in the general game plan. I've noted this at my local airfield. Oh, and a BA inbound nabbing 09R at LHR (sorry EGLL)? But not relevent, I suppose, if procedural arrivals are taking place.
>3.Other units will do CN's work as well as their own? I don't think so!
I don't know the relationships between different units, so fair point. But, are Humberside really that busy?
>4.... if only the SLF knew what went on outside CAS
Now I will challenge this one, as I spent at least ten years listening to Border/Pennine at my desk day-in, day-out, (rather than Radio Two). Great Dun Fell allowed me to hear both sides (including a few airprox/miss-sounding incidents.) I'd like to think I have a fair understanding of all the wackiness. It must make for an interesting day at the office.
r
I may just scuttle back and lurk after this...
1. CN inbounds from south route via TNT.
Thanks. Just curious.
>2. you seriously think that atc will provide priority to a/c depending on the turn around time of company?
Errm, no, but wondered if the delayed inbound of the major user might just get priority over a light twin in the general game plan. I've noted this at my local airfield. Oh, and a BA inbound nabbing 09R at LHR (sorry EGLL)? But not relevent, I suppose, if procedural arrivals are taking place.
>3.Other units will do CN's work as well as their own? I don't think so!
I don't know the relationships between different units, so fair point. But, are Humberside really that busy?
>4.... if only the SLF knew what went on outside CAS
Now I will challenge this one, as I spent at least ten years listening to Border/Pennine at my desk day-in, day-out, (rather than Radio Two). Great Dun Fell allowed me to hear both sides (including a few airprox/miss-sounding incidents.) I'd like to think I have a fair understanding of all the wackiness. It must make for an interesting day at the office.
r
Last edited by Midland 331; 15th Jan 2007 at 16:46.
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Of course people can ask - but I suspect what got HD's goat ( and mine!) is the choice of words :
"astounded to be held"
"no conceivable reason to be held"
And as for the presumption of knowledge from having the frequency on in the background at work - if only it was that easy................
louby
"astounded to be held"
"no conceivable reason to be held"
And as for the presumption of knowledge from having the frequency on in the background at work - if only it was that easy................
louby
Thread Starter
Of course people can ask - but I suspect what got HD's goat ( and mine!) is the choice of words :
"astounded to be held"
"no conceivable reason to be held"
And as for the presumption of knowledge from having the frequency on in the background at work - if only it was that easy................
louby
"astounded to be held"
"no conceivable reason to be held"
And as for the presumption of knowledge from having the frequency on in the background at work - if only it was that easy................
louby
And can we shunt this thread back to spotter's corner, please?
Maybe I should remind folks of what I said right at the beginning:-
>Of course, we don't see the full picture from row 17
...and scuttle back to the fringes, as folks seem mightily touchy.
r
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HD
Good use of a derogatory term (SLF) - considering that you are SLF as well, and possibly always have been, why don't you lighten up?
The guy asked a fair question - maybe the comment about one member of staff saying that it was all ATC could cope with was a bit out of line, but then again, if thats what Crew are telling passengers, isn't it better to know so that we can educate Joe Public?
Quite often you come across as being stick up your own **s. Why don't you read some of your posts to see what I mean. I have never worked with you, but I have the distinct feeling that you are one of (the now thankfully few) Heathrow controllers who think they were/are the best, just because of the name 'Heathrow'. Christ, the log on name you use gives away your attitude.
Good use of a derogatory term (SLF) - considering that you are SLF as well, and possibly always have been, why don't you lighten up?
The guy asked a fair question - maybe the comment about one member of staff saying that it was all ATC could cope with was a bit out of line, but then again, if thats what Crew are telling passengers, isn't it better to know so that we can educate Joe Public?
Quite often you come across as being stick up your own **s. Why don't you read some of your posts to see what I mean. I have never worked with you, but I have the distinct feeling that you are one of (the now thankfully few) Heathrow controllers who think they were/are the best, just because of the name 'Heathrow'. Christ, the log on name you use gives away your attitude.
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That's what happens when you put together an ATC unit on the cheap - you get delays like those you had, and in the procedural world it's nearly always a case of "first come, first served".
Thread Starter
To add to all this, I seem to recall the F/O coming on the PA and saying "It's rush hour at Doncaster", hence my initial puzzlement and frustration.
I suppose that saying "Oh, the radar's not working" would have the passengers hammering ont he side of the cabin in sheer terror...
A large chunk of my life used to be spent admiring the view from the Bovingdon hold, and I would never have believed that this would happen at a place like Doncaster.
On the subject of commercial competition, I'm surprised that this affects ATC units. I got the impression that you were all very much "Brothers and Sisters In Arms". Obviously not.
And on the subject of not knowing the full story from simply listening, this I concede. However, maybe it would surprise some ATC officers just how much about the unit, its character, and its personalities builds up through day-in, day-out listening.
r
I suppose that saying "Oh, the radar's not working" would have the passengers hammering ont he side of the cabin in sheer terror...
A large chunk of my life used to be spent admiring the view from the Bovingdon hold, and I would never have believed that this would happen at a place like Doncaster.
On the subject of commercial competition, I'm surprised that this affects ATC units. I got the impression that you were all very much "Brothers and Sisters In Arms". Obviously not.
And on the subject of not knowing the full story from simply listening, this I concede. However, maybe it would surprise some ATC officers just how much about the unit, its character, and its personalities builds up through day-in, day-out listening.
r
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Can I report the moderator to a moderator for chucking me into the lion's den?
from the very horse's mouth. I concede that the question was not phrased as well as it could have been, but I do feel that 'the hounds of war' have unreasonably been let slip here.
I fear, Midland, that the baying pack would have scented you out in Spectators' as well
There is no escape..................
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<<During my industry days, a scanner sat on my desk at work day in, day out, plus I enjoyed (discreetly) listening to much ATC activity at Heathrow>
I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???
I see.... so you enjoy flagrantly breaking the law too???
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Dummy back in the pram.
Give the poor guy a break, he was just asking a question which he is entitled to do, and to receive the amount of abuse that he did is appalling from a bunch of professionals.
He held, he wondered why, he asked a question, got a sensible and plausible reply from spekesoftly, end of.
We should be encouraging others to find out about and be interested in our profession, maybe there wouldn't be so many silly stories in the press then.
Give the poor guy a break, he was just asking a question which he is entitled to do, and to receive the amount of abuse that he did is appalling from a bunch of professionals.
He held, he wondered why, he asked a question, got a sensible and plausible reply from spekesoftly, end of.
We should be encouraging others to find out about and be interested in our profession, maybe there wouldn't be so many silly stories in the press then.
Thread Starter
Thanks
r
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Your loss! HD was just about THE most entertaining man to sit alongside in ATC which made working in Heathrow ATC a lot less stressful. He is a most capable, compassionate and honourable gentleman. 'anotherthing', match that. Your insulting rudeness is letting down the professional ATCOs on this forum.
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Midland331, never be afraid to ask questions! I agree with 1985!
BA on 09R for example: We can land on either runway on easterly ops (09R, 09L) as opposed to westerlies where we are forced to land on one or the other according to a strict programme - all due to noise regulations. So if it's quiet on 09R, ie. not very many departures, we might accept one or two inbounds to land on 09R. It helps keep the inbound delay down, and if we choose T4 a/c, it saves them from a very long taxi and runway crossing. The a/c win by getting to the stand 15-20 minutes earlier, and we win by (usually) simplifying GMC.
BA are usually the ones chosen because they're the main users of T4, and most of them are Heavy a/c, which means we can maximize the spacing on 09L if we take the Heavies for 09R.
BA on 09R for example: We can land on either runway on easterly ops (09R, 09L) as opposed to westerlies where we are forced to land on one or the other according to a strict programme - all due to noise regulations. So if it's quiet on 09R, ie. not very many departures, we might accept one or two inbounds to land on 09R. It helps keep the inbound delay down, and if we choose T4 a/c, it saves them from a very long taxi and runway crossing. The a/c win by getting to the stand 15-20 minutes earlier, and we win by (usually) simplifying GMC.
BA are usually the ones chosen because they're the main users of T4, and most of them are Heavy a/c, which means we can maximize the spacing on 09L if we take the Heavies for 09R.
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Bloody hell man ....get out more!! Have you NEVER done anything illegal?
HD was just about THE most entertaining man to sit alongside in ATC which made working in Heathrow ATC a lot less stressful