Worst C172 Landings...

[PPL152]

I went up for some touch and goes on C-172 and I did not even do 1 single good landing. All of them were very hard, except for one...

which ended up in 4 bounces!!! it was a nightmare...

I spent 1 hour doing them without not even a single smooth landing.


I noticed that VERY BAD landings were occuring when I used 40 degrees of flaps and for some reason the trim was quite on the downside, which meant that during flare i found the aircraft very heavy.

however when i used 20 flaps, there was only a slight improvmenet... dont know wot i did wrong... just wasnt my day i guess

any comments/views

[modelman]

Whilst waiting for my licence to arrive,I decided yesterday to have check ride ( I hate that phrase-anyone got a better one?) in a 172,having done all my training on 150/152's.
The most apparent difference to me was the much lower nose attitude and better forward vis during cruise and climb.Maybe this is what is happening to you if you have flown something different before (like a 150)and you are trying to match the same flare attitude
I felt less aware of flaring in the 172 as I do in a 150.Had 3 landings,flapless,normal and glide and I don't remember the pull force before touchdown being particularly remarkable.
I did notice quite a long hold off even though we had full fuel and 3 POB.

Better luck next time.
MM

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Biggest error most people make when landing the 172, especially with no back seaters, is not flaring enough. Watch at any GA field - loads of 3-point landings. That leads to bounces becuase the aeroplane still has airspeed and will rebound into the air and continue to fly.

With power off it takes a mighty pull to get that nose up to hold off before touch down. Leaving a trickle of power on helps, as it makes the elevator more effective.

[PPL152]

Biggest error most people make when landing the 172, especially with no back seaters, is not flaring enough. Watch at any GA field - loads of 3-point landings. That leads to bounces becuase the aeroplane still has airspeed and will rebound into the air and continue to fly.
With power off it takes a mighty pull to get that nose up to hold off before touch down. Leaving a trickle of power on helps, as it makes the elevator more effective.


I fully agree. Well-said.

I in fact did a three point landing probably, followed by the 4 bounces - worst landing of my life.

Also, I had the aircraft trimmed nose down and felt helpless during the flare - another mistake. Next time round I tried flaring a bit more, but the aircraft ballooned.

In fact yes I have about 75 hours on C-152 and with this flight, I have 3 hours on C-172. I will need more training in the flaring part.

Any more C-172-related stories? Seems like an interesting aircraft to discuss.


Keep them coming.
PPL152

[Wind Up Turn]

Not an expert, but have a think about these points, only you'll know whether or not they're relevant.....
1) You mentioned using 40 flap. What was the power setting during the last part of your approach? If you were at or near to idle i.e. a glide approach, with 40 flap then the pitch change to flare would be large and difficult to judge accurately.
2) Regarding the stick force to flare, were you accurately trimmed for the recommended approach speed with Flap 40? I've found similar problems when flaring a PA-28 with full flap (and being out of practice) - I thought I was accurately trimmed but wasn't and only really found out when the control input to flare was much higher than expected.
3) How long was your final approach? I'm not suggesting a 'cross-country' final approach, but did you give yourself enough time to get comfortably aligned and trimmed? Or, was it a rushed, tight circuit?
4) Finally, after 1 hour you must have been pretty fed up. I guess that wouldn't help at all. If you were tense because it wasn't going well, then it would be even more difficult to get a good landing in the bag. Don't press-on with more circuits if it's not your day. Better to make it a shortened trip and try again tomorrow. Just accept that we all make bad landings from time to time and don't let it dent your confidence. Of course, a quick check-ride with an instructor might be all you need.
Hope that helps
WUT

[PPL152]

Wind Up Turn,

I had problems 1, 2 and 4 for sure. Regarding 1, how d'ya know the power setting for 40 flap and correct trim setting, I never came across such data (e.g. tables or stuff)?

Another factor I could add is that the runway starts off with an up slope and then sharply goes downslope - but didn't affect me with C152. Yeah I surely need some more practice on those landings but as you said - it just won't be the day.

I was practicing short-field initially, but didn't as I found out I need to practice landings!! Mentioning short field, can anyone confirm the minimum speed for takeoff with 10 degree flaps, is it 50 to 55 MPH?

[mingalababya]

Next time round I tried flaring a bit more, but the aircraft ballooned.

It sounds like you over-rotated, ie, too much back pressure in the flare or your speed was a little too high. A good landing usually starts on base leg; if you can get the speed right there, and have the aircraft well trimmed, then the rest of the approach and landing should come together nicely.

One thing I've learnt very early on in my training was that if I could see the runway when the aircraft touches down, then I know I haven't got the correct attitude and that I hadn't held off correctly. There's a natural tendency to want to see the runway, so not seeing the runway during the hold-off was something I had to mentally come to terms with. Using peripheral vision to see and feel the sink rate is thus important.

[Crashed&Burned]

If you can't get it right after two hard landings (or any other basic manoevre) best to call it a day and come back tomorrow. Works for me.

C&B:ugh:

[Mike Cross]

Another factor I could add is that the runway starts off with an up slope and then sharply goes downslope

A possible clue. If you're landing on a level runway you need to arrest the descent and fly level to be flying parallel to the r/w. If it's uphill you have to arrest and then reverse the descent so you're flying uphill. This scrubs off an unexpectedly large amount of energy (and the bigger the a/c the more energy you lose). Try keeping a bit of power on until you are flying parallel to the runway rather than taking it off as you flare.

Mike

[MIKECR]

Keep it simple, 65 knots suffices quite happily for the 172 on the approach and then flare, flare flare! Get that yoke back!!, all the way!!, and wait for the stall warner, dont let it down til its whistling at you! You've got to git rid of airspeed! Try flying some tailwheel, that'll teach you to hold off landings. People will give you all sots of theories, just keep it simple, a 172 just like a pa28, piece of cake

[C-dog]

MIKECR,

C172 and PA28 landings are as you say a piece of cake, but totally different. PA28 floats more due to the low wing and ground effect. C172 with it's massive flaps40 has a much larger pitch change in the flare.

As a C172 (Model C!) driver, I try to reserve flaps40 for when I'm over the fence and committed to landing, when it will lower the touchdown speed and lengthen the life of the tyres. Of course if one is a tadge high on approach then flaps40 is very useful, but once it's on avoid taking it off again until you're safely down. You're then dependant on throttle alone to maintain glideslope.

And of course flaps40 is a no-no in anything approaching a reasonable x-wind.

[MIKECR]

Yes, I absolutely agree. When I meant they were like one another to land, I meant the simpleness of it rather than the handling characteristics. Flaps 40 on the 172 are pretty much barn doors and do cause you to come down like a tonne of bricks. You have to be fairly firm with the flare to arrest the sink rate or keep the power on a bit longer. You can still easily pull off a nice flare though, stall warning going, even with the 40 set.

Unless I have significant x wind or perhaps a contaminated runway, then I land in exactly the same fashion every time, whether its tricycle or tailwheel, or even the various gliders I fly. Nail the approach speed and then last 50 feet - slowly decrease power, slowly bring the nose back and then last 5 feet or so, hold, hold, hold! Get that yoke or stick all the way back, dont let it drop, kick of any drift and wait for a few seconds of stall warner. A fully held of landing every time, and not rocket science.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I did notice quite a long hold off even though we had full fuel and 3 POB.
That seems to be not uncommon for 152 pilots. Possibly the 172 is rather more sensitive than the 152 to the approach speed being too high.

[PPL152]

That seems to be not uncommon for 152 pilots. Possibly the 172 is rather more sensitive than the 152 to the approach speed being too high.


Fully agree. That's a very very common situation - My mistake is usually that I come with a higher speed than supposed to during the approach. In addition, having trained and flown 152 for some time, you get used to flying a quite forgiving aircraft as regards to anything really.

When it comes to slightly larger aircraft such as 172, some of those forgiving events are not present in the 172. Approach speed is one of them.

Also I noted that the propwash on the fin creates a larger degree of left-turning tendency - of course this is due to the higher BHP the 172 has.

I agree that pilots having flown a lot of hourse on the 152 would find the 172 tricky during their first few flights with it, as happened in my case.

[RatherBeFlying]

3 hours is a bit soon for 40 flap landings in a C-172. Start with 20 flap and when you have that working, move on to a dozen landings with 30; then move on to 40.

Having to first flare against an upslope and then convert that to fit the subsequent downslope is a bit of a trick when learning a new type. You may want to visit an easier runway for touch and goes until you are better acquainted with the C-172. In my own case, I checked out in a Citabria on a 1900' strip with a downslope and dropoffs on both ends this Spring. For touch and goes, I'm taking it to a 5000' x 100' runway for the time being.

Back to the C-172 vs. the C-152. The biggest difference is that in the C-152, you were flying close to gross weight. One up in a C-172 is a significantly smaller percentage of gross than you have experienced in a C-152. The book approach speed for full gross does lead to a bunch of float when solo. Not having people in the rear seats puts you in more of a forward CG condition than you have experienced in the C-152 which means you need more pitch force to flare.

40 flaps requires a bunch more nose down to maintain airspeed; so, you have a longer way to rotate in the flare against the aforementioned forward CG condition. When you do get to 40 flap approaches, remember to get the trim set well before the flare.
Once you are used to it, you will find that the C-172 flies a power off approach with 40 flaps just fine as long as you do not put on full flaps too soon:\
Don't forget the carb heat;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Wind Up Turn,

I had problems 1, 2 and 4 for sure. Regarding 1, how d'ya know the power setting for 40 flap and correct trim setting, I never came across such data (e.g. tables or stuff)?

Another factor I could add is that the runway starts off with an up slope and then sharply goes downslope - but didn't affect me with C152. Yeah I surely need some more practice on those landings but as you said - it just won't be the day.

I was practicing short-field initially, but didn't as I found out I need to practice landings!! Mentioning short field, can anyone confirm the minimum speed for takeoff with 10 degree flaps, is it 50 to 55 MPH?

Hmm, I suspect that our friend Wind_Up_Turn is a bit more knowledgeable than he claims to be - I know what a WUT is, but it's not knowledge you'd associate with many PPLs ! I should listen to him.

Anyhow, important thing - approach speed. It's in the manual (I'd hesitate to say what I think it is, because there are so many subtle variations of C172 - so look in the manual for the aircraft you are flying). [Same applies to any other speed, do not take anybody here's word for it, nor any proprietary checklist - USE THE BOOK THAT HAS "CESSNA" AND THE RIGHT REGISTRATION ON THE FRONT.]

Next, for the right approach speed / flap setting, get the pitch attitude right. If you fly a consistent (and correct) attitude until the roundout, most other things will slot into place.

Trim setting - you don't need tables, trim so that the aircraft flies the right approach speed / pitch attitude hands off, if you don't, you are just creating work for yourself, and increasing the risk of getting the wrong pitch attitude when workload goes up near the ground / doing RT / etc.

Finally - set power to give you the touchdown point - if speed and attitude are right, and the aeroplane is trimmed, then tweak power to keep your touchdown point stationary in your field of view.


And finally, it's a VFR aeroplane with a reasonable view and plenty of attitude / feel cues - try and get a feel for it, don't try to fly by numbers - it'll do you no favours. I'm sure, like the rest of us, when learning you got shouted at for fixating at the dials (I'm sure that I did anyhow) - there was a reason for that. This is particularly true in the roundout and flare, the C172 is not designed to be flown by the numbers - feel the ground effect, feel the (large!) stick force, and keep easing it back just off the ground until it lands itself - do not tell it when to land, let it tell you.

G

[QDMQDMQDM]

Everyone else commenting here is much more experienced than me, but my two penn'orth as a taildragger pilot: speed, speed, speed. Carry too much speed into the flare and you're screwed as far as a decent landing goes.

Also, way on the back of the drag curve with flap 40 you may well get a nasty bang and bounce if you flare too high and it drops rapidly, in which case if you do get that feeling trickle in a bit of power as it drops. But four bounces? Sounds like too much speed.

Anyway, take this with a pinch of salt, but I offer it as food for thought, along with everyone else.

[MSP Aviation]

And finally, it's a VFR aeroplane with a reasonable view and plenty of attitude / feel cues - try and get a feel for it, don't try to fly by numbers - it'll do you no favours. I'm sure, like the rest of us, when learning you got shouted at for fixating at the dials (I'm sure that I did anyhow) - there was a reason for that.

i certainly did. thank god the vacuum system was down for my first solo, so i know that i know how to fly for real. (somewhat :})

re. 172 vs. 152, i find that the visual cues are much different. the 152 feels like being seated in an F1 car, whereas the 172 feels like a big jeep. the forces are higher, it reacts a bit slower, and it doesn't like to come down. (well, the one i first flew after the 152 had an upgraded engine, and flaps 40 were disabled). needless to say, i floated for a while, even though i started at the same height/distance i might have in the 152 with full flaps.

[Pilot DAR]

Hi PPL152,

There's lots of good advice here. You're on the right path with your practice, keep with it, and don't be put off. Good judgement comes from experience - experience comes from bad judgement.

The problems which you are having are perhaps a bit more noticeable on the C172, but pretty common to most low wing loading nosewheel types. You've got too much speed at touchdown. If you're not hearing the stall horn peeping at touchdown, or imediately after, you're too fast. Fly the plane by feel, not fixated on the airspeed. This skill will prove very well worth the practice when an instructor simulates a complete electrical failure during night flying training, and you have to land with no instrument lights (or flaps) at all. (It happens for real too!)

But back to your challenge... Try these: Lots of soft field takeoffs - even if the field is not soft. It'll get you used to the proper nose high attitude on the ground, and the lower speed getting airborne. You can feel the nose wheel come off the ground (in the pedals), once it is just off, hold that attitude, and memorize it. Don't raise the nose anymore, because banging the tail tiedown ring on the ground is a very real possibility. It's bad for the plane, and your pride - not to mention your wallet if you hit it more than a scuff. Also, Practice (at a safe altitude) very slow flight with full flaps. The C172 has excellent low speed control, get used to making the best of it. If it stalls, don;t worry about it, but don;t let it spin, the recovery is hard on the flaps at 40.

When it comes to landing, assure that every landing you do (forever) follows a stabilized approach which has you crossing the numbers at the correct height above the ground and airspeed. Not 10 feet too high and 10 knots too fast. Once you have this under control, you have assured yourself that the aircraft is going to consume about the amount of runway that Cessna's flight manual says it will. So what's your hurry to be on the ground? You want to be flying don't you? If you decelerate in the air, rather than on the ground, you reduce tire and brake wear, and assure no bounces. If the plane touches down at the lowest possible airspeed, it is about to stall. This is what you want, because it can't fly anymore! If it cannot fly, it cannot bounce! If during this beautiful slow flight mere feet above the runway, you feel that you're about to stall, and drop, do not lower the nose, just add a bit of power. If you've reached that attitude, there's a good chance that you're going to have to carry that power setting to touchdown, and maybe even add a bit more. Within reason, this is just fine, but you're at the limit of a safe landing at this point. After you touch, continue to hold the nose up. it helps slow you down faster, and prevents nosegear shimmy and damage. Don't just let go of the controls once you're down - it makes it look like you suddenly lost interest in flying!

Avoid this kind of flying with anyone in the back seat for the first while. You'll get the feel much better if you're more forward C of G. If the trim is all the way nose up...okay. You're willing to put a bit of muscle into the flare right? With weight in the back, striking the tail on the ground is quite easy, and the "feel" is harder to detect.

In a C172, there is NEVER any need to push on the controls during the landing. If the aircraft is that far out of trim, there is no way you could have flown an approach at all. You will never be pushing to recover a stall, 'cause you'll be dropping too fast already. For the new pilot, short runways can get to look even shorter half way through a landing. Did you check the runway length in the flight manual? Enough? then it will be fine - don't start worrying over the numbers, it's a bit late then!

I once landed into a 1200' runway in a C182, an hour after a guy wrecked a C172 on the same runway (only hurt the plane and his pride). He had landed with only 20 flap, and bit too fast. The only witness to this poor technique (who was not a pilot) asked me "aren't the brakes on the main wheels? They wern't on the ground, only the nose wheel". It would seem that the pilot was worrying so much about getting stopped, that he figured pushing forward on the controls would help. Nope!

I began to understand these concepts when, after what I though was a very precise landing in a C172, the instructor next to me said "nice landing, though a bit fast, do it again - more slowly this time" hauled the poor plane back into the air, and let go of the controls. With the power off, and suddenly 10 feet in the air, I got my act together fast! If I'd landed at the proper speed in the first place, it would have stayed on the runway, and just the stall horn would have wailed when he pulled!

Minimum takeoff airspeed with 10 flap is a soft field takeoff. It should be very well known to you as a feeling, not an indication on an instrument - 'cause you'll be watching outside the whole time! The plane will fly when it is ready. Even if the stall horn is peeping, don't worry, it's very safe as long as you maintain control. Once airborne, let it accellerate in ground effect. By the way, it's less than 50MPH.

Once you master the feel of the plane in the flare, and you are able to hold it there, and hold it off the ground, you will find landing other types of aircraft not too much a challenge. This technique works on most civil types.

Keep working to improve your skills, it will come more naturally soon,

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[PPL152]

Many thanks for all your replies!

I am currently training short-field landings and takeoffs in my local airport, as later on this month I'll be going for a navigation flight to an airfield with a 680m long runway. Does anyone recommend 40 flap? Or will it be ok with 20?

I'll be going up again locally for some more training and will let you know how it went. I'm sure I'll be fine after reading the very valid comments.

[MIKECR]

You really ned to have a look at the POH and find out exctly what the aeroplane is capable of, in terms of performance ie take off/landing distances, with flaps/without, or perhaps a wet runway(factor up) or a grass runway. All that info should be available for you to read. Re the 680 metres you've mentioned, you'll have no problems at all, you could get a bus in and out of that, even without flaps!

[Pilot DAR]

Yes, but always select the most flap you can safely use, not the least. You'll put less wear and tear on the plane, and if something were to go wrong (runway excursion or intrusion) you'll be going slower, and have a better chance of no damage. Only a big crosswind, or flap failure practice, should have you using less than full flap. If the crosswind is that big, you should rethink your runway choice anyway.

Enjoy the full flaps while you can, perhaps you will transition to one of the many types with a lot less flap effectivness, and you'll miss it! The only aircraft type I've flown with more effective flaps is a deHavilland Twin Otter, and that's a whole different story...

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[172driver]

Yes, but always select the most flap you can safely use, not the least. You'll put less wear and tear on the plane, and if something were to go wrong (runway excursion or intrusion) you'll be going slower, and have a better chance of no damage. Only a big crosswind, or flap failure practice, should have you using less than full flap. If the crosswind is that big, you should rethink your runway choice anyway.

Enjoy the full flaps while you can, perhaps you will transition to one of the many types with a lot less flap effectivness, and you'll miss it! The only aircraft type I've flown with more effective flaps is a deHavilland Twin Otter, and that's a whole different story...

Cheers, Pilot DAR

I beg to differ, especially when it comes to 40 degs flaps. First of all, not all 172 models have this setting. Secondly, at least on the ones I fly (RGs), this setting seriously compromises rudder effectiveness. You don't need much of a crosswind to be all over the place :eek: Also, the point re 'something to go wrong': ever tried a GA with 40 flaps deployed ?? Better not... I say use flaps as required, they are there to help you adjust better to the circumstances, no more, no less.

[gcolyer]

ever tried a GA with 40 flaps deployed ??

Yes at Peterlee on a windy rainy day. It was not fun.

The runway is short with pylons at one end and an industrial estate at the other. As the runway is narrow I misjudged my approach an touched down to fast and to far down the runway.

So full power and I tried to climb, straight away I got the stall warner going nuts and a sloppy plane, nose down and try to maintain straight and level whilst on the verge of stalling. With just enough airspeed to very slowly climb I reckon I cleared the industrial estate roofs by about 50ft! after that it was safe to start loosing the flaps

I say try to avoid 40 degrees on a 172. 150's are a lot more fun for that sort of thing.

[RatherBeFlying]

680m ~=2200'
20 flap will work fine.

Landing with 20 flap does have some advantages -- the chief being that you will have a decent climb right away should you want to go around. With 30 or 40 flap, you have to get the flaps back to 20 and retrim massively when flying low. One of the reasons the newer C-172s are limited to 30 flaps is that 40 flap go arounds figure significantly in the accident rate of an unusually safe g/a a/c:ouch:

I just see gcolyer has ably described a 40 flap go around -- best to practice that with an instructor. It's even more "fun" with 4 aboard.

[Slopey]

I've just done a morning of circuits on a 172 and with 40 degrees of flap you really notice it. If you pull the power back the amount of height you can lose is quite spectacular - you'll probably need to keep a little power on and fly it right down to the flare - pull the power too early over the fence and you might not get there!

30 degress of flap in an 8 knot crosswind was fine but with 40 degrees it was much harder to compensate for. 20 degrees and 70 knots (and 60ish over the fence) put me down nicely on the numbers, then just a case of holding off the flare - if you've flown 152s before, the 172 does float a fair amount which I've particularly noticed while converting over.

We did a 40 flap touch and go for comparison, and you really need to get those flaps up as fast as possible otherwise it's like rolling along treacle!

SOP for my group's 172 at the home grass strip is 40 flaps and 60 knots for the short field into the wind, but I'd be hesitant to use it unless I really had to anywhere else - length permitting.

[jakerr]

Personally I stick with 30 deg of flap for most landings. Handling is fine with this amount on. I never use the full 40 deg. Its a pain to shed it all off if you go round. Unless its a really tight airfield 30 deg should do! :ok:

[PPL152]

Does training in FS2004 help in anyway?

[MSP Aviation]

if you do it right. it's good for procedural training, but unless you have payware aircraft, it's not realistic enough for a/c systems. it's great for IFR, though. it also screws with you in terms of not wanting to look outside, and being focused solely on the directional gyro and vertical speed indicator your first few flights (i know i was!). yes, it's a good tool, but it is only that, a tool, not replacement for actual experience. it doesn't really help the actual flying that much as you have no actual control feedback. it only helps with understanding what the controls do, not getting a feel for them.

p.s. i've been flying sims with a yoke and rudders since i was 10 and soloed my sixteenth birthday...

[Pilot DAR]

Gee,

Lots of discussion about the non-steller climb performance of a C172 performing a full flap balked landing. Of course, each pilot to their own technique. It is important, never the less, to remember that the C172 with the slow, electric, non-preselect, 40 degree flaps (as opposed to the quick manual flaps), still demonstrated compliance with the CAR 3 design requirement as follows:

3.596.
(c) Balked landing conditions. The steady angle of climb at sea level shall be at least 1:30 with:
(1) Takeoff power on all engines,
(2) Landing gear extended,
(3) Wing flaps in the landing position.
If rapid retraction is possible with safety without loss of altitude and without requiring sudden changes of angle of attack or exceptional skill on the part of the pilot, wing flaps may be retracted.

For comparison, the steady rate of climb with the most favourable flap setting would have to be 1:12 or better, so, yeah, it is a bit like treacle, but it'll do it... And, yes, Cessna did reduce the maximum flap deflection to 30 from 40 in later years, on those models which were no longer seen as having to have "bush plane capabilities". The C185 kept the 40 it's whole production run though.

This is one of the many paragraphs which state that "exceptional skill on the part of the pilot" not be required, to show compliance. A few paragraphs are silent in this respect, suggesting that compliance may be shown by a pilot demonstrating exceptional skill, as long as the plane will do it.

When my home runway started out at about 250 metres long (though with excellent approaches), people would ask "isn't it hard landing [C150 with STOL kit] in such a short runway?" My chosen reponse was "It's like parallel parking one's car, you'd rather not, if you have the choice, but sometimes there's no choice."

It is my opinion that it is our duty as pilots (once properly trained on type) to maintian reasonable skill to fly the aircraft in every configuration for which it is approved. Sure, some are easy, and others demand more skill, but aren't we flying to safely grow our skills and challenge ourselves?

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[172driver]

It is my opinion that it is our duty as pilots (once properly trained on type) to maintian reasonable skill to fly the aircraft in every configuration for which it is approved. Sure, some are easy, and others demand more skill, but aren't we flying to safely grow our skills and challenge ourselves? [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]

Cheers, Pilot DAR

DAR, certainly. This is why I for example regularly practice short/soft field T/Os and landings, although about 90% of my flying is from 10.000 ft runways...

However:

a) just because something is legal and approved does not mean it's also a good idea

b) the OP obviously has/had very little if any experience on type.

In this context, I think 40 deg flap on a 172 is not such a great idea. Practice it by all means, and once you know your a/c and you need this bush-flying capability, sure, go ahead and use it. Just be aware of the limitations this particular config places on the a/c.

[vector4fun]

I own a '72 "L" model with 40 flaps and generally like using all 40 deg so long as there's not much cross-wind. Just my preference, I have always used max flaps on most aircraft. Of course, I'm generally solo or just one pax, and would probably just use 20-30 more often if near gross so I have a bit more margin on go around. Solo, my 150hp 172 is quite controllable on go-around with all 40 deg, and will even climb at a leisurly rate.

I do find that my Skyhawk, at lighter weights, likes to fly a bit slower than book speeds on short final. I generally use 65 mph, not knots, slowing to 60 mph as I cross the threshold and flare. If you have the aircraft trimmed for 65-70 mph on final, it shouldn't need any large pull to flare. Sounds like you have it trimmed too fast. I'd say work on getting the speed below 65kts or 70 mph down final, 5 less even better if you're light, and trimmed for those speeds. As another said, hold it off until the stall horn sounds, and it shouldn't bounce at all unless you've dropped it in from 10' up.

[apruneuk]

PPL152

It may be that you were flaring too low. I don't know what type of approach you were attempting, but with 40 flap it would usually be a "performance" landing. For landing the 206 into short grass strips on parachute ops. I used to use full flap, 1.2 vso and a steep approach (5 degree or so). The trade-off is that you need to round out higher than usual due to the reduced effectiveness of the rudder at the slower speed, the greater change of attitude required to full stall and the higher descent rate.
I have recently been flying a 172 with 40 flap and found that it handles in a similar way to the 206. It is also true that the CofG is likely to be on the forward limit with just a pilot and plenty of fuel on board - bear in mind this is a potential four-seater and one-up will require plenty of back-pressure to flare.
On another note, four bounces?!!! Probably best to go-around after the first!

[RatherBeFlying]

But don't flare too high with 40 flaps -- once the nose comes up, the airspeed will drop like a rock and so will you.

[Hireandhire]

Don't beat yourself up.
I gave myself a flight to remember on 7th April 2002, when I bunked off from a business trip to Raleigh, North Carolina and rented a brand spanking new 172 Skyhawk.
My first ever rental in the US and it was shiny, clean, leather and aircon. A complete change from the knackered smelly old PA28 donkeys I hired in the UK.(and less than half the price)
So, having zipped the 90 mins out to Kittyhawk's uncontrolled strip right next to the Wright Bros memorial I flared it neatly over the numbers ....and....dropped it on the last foot with a screech of rubber that turned heads.
I'm probably only ever going to have one landing at FFA in my logbook, and it was memorable, but not in a good way.
So relax, be happy, and save the good ones for your memory bank.
regards
HnH

[apruneuk]

Did I say Rudder? Sorry, I meant Elevator......!

[MoateAir]

Some very useful info posted above. Its given me a couple of new things to try. It would get very boring if every landing were a greaser :eek:

The main point to remember is that if you set up the approach right, the landing will invariably be good. i.e. nail the speed and flap settings as early in the final approach as you can, and fix your touchdown point on the screen, use power to keep it there - right up until you flare.

Another thing that I find very useful, and I don't think has been mentioned yet, is to put on a touch of rear trim. This has 2 advantages. Firstly, it helps keep the nose that little bit higher in the approach without adversely affecting forward vis, and requires less effort on the yoke to flare. Secondly, if you decide you have got it wrong, your aircraft will already be trimmed for the climbout when you go-around. I was taught this in a 182, which get veeeeery heavy in the flare, but it works well in all the other a/c I fly.

[sir.pratt]

Hmm, I suspect that our friend Wind_Up_Turn is a bit more knowledgeable than he claims to be - I know what a WUT is, but it's not knowledge you'd associate with many PPLs ! I should listen to him.
Anyhow, important thing - approach speed. It's in the manual (I'd hesitate to say what I think it is, because there are so many subtle variations of C172 - so look in the manual for the aircraft you are flying). [Same applies to any other speed, do not take anybody here's word for it, nor any proprietary checklist - USE THE BOOK THAT HAS "CESSNA" AND THE RIGHT REGISTRATION ON THE FRONT.]
Next, for the right approach speed / flap setting, get the pitch attitude right. If you fly a consistent (and correct) attitude until the roundout, most other things will slot into place.
Trim setting - you don't need tables, trim so that the aircraft flies the right approach speed / pitch attitude hands off, if you don't, you are just creating work for yourself, and increasing the risk of getting the wrong pitch attitude when workload goes up near the ground / doing RT / etc.
Finally - set power to give you the touchdown point - if speed and attitude are right, and the aeroplane is trimmed, then tweak power to keep your touchdown point stationary in your field of view.
And finally, it's a VFR aeroplane with a reasonable view and plenty of attitude / feel cues - try and get a feel for it, don't try to fly by numbers - it'll do you no favours. I'm sure, like the rest of us, when learning you got shouted at for fixating at the dials (I'm sure that I did anyhow) - there was a reason for that. This is particularly true in the roundout and flare, the C172 is not designed to be flown by the numbers - feel the ground effect, feel the (large!) stick force, and keep easing it back just off the ground until it lands itself - do not tell it when to land, let it tell you.
G

so first you say how important approach speed is, then not worry about the numbers? ok for someone with 1000 c172 hrs maybe, but 3?????

my advice - always fly the numbers. they are there for a reason, and will not let you down in your moment of need.

and sometimes, you need to tell the aeroplane what to do. experience lets you know when and where you can do that.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that you misunderstand me Sir Pratt.

Fly the attitude, let the numbers define the attitude - but keep your head out of the cockpit flying by feel and attitude in an aeroplane like the C172, not constantly monitoring the ASI (albeit with an occasional check on it of-course - the numbers are of-course your baseline).

Which unless my memory is getting dodgy in my old age, is how I was taught to fly, and I imagine most other people too.

I'd also expect within the first hour to be thinking about attitudes, not 1000.

G

[vector4fun]

Ah, but since we're talking about SE aircraft, there's also the school of thought, (which I adhere to) that says that those who regularly practice full flap approaches and landing at minimum safe airspeed, (when conditions are conductive of course) are much better prepaired to successfully park the aircraft in a small pasture should the need arise. I've flown with too many pilots who need 1500' minimum to land a C172 or similar. Should only take half or less of that done right. And it does take practice to judge the descent to arrive at the flare just over the fence at Vso+5.

[Slopey]

I know conventional training says follow the procedures in the POH, but whatever it says in there I believe you're better off in ,say, a Kingair without flap, that with flap, in the event of an engine failure.


I imagine you'd also be better off in a 172 without 40 degress full flap in the event of an engine failiure - it goes down very very fast with no power and the barn doors out.

[vector4fun]

I imagine you'd also be better off in a 172 without 40 degress full flap in the event of an engine failiure - it goes down very very fast with no power and the barn doors out.


Gee, I don't suppose anybody ever thought of leaving the flaps UP until short final to your selected emergency field? :hmm:

You go ahead and land with half flaps and 70 kts in an emergency if you want, I'll take 40 flaps and 40-ish kts any day.

[sir.pratt]

I think that you misunderstand me Sir Pratt.
Fly the attitude, let the numbers define the attitude - but keep your head out of the cockpit flying by feel and attitude in an aeroplane like the C172, not constantly monitoring the ASI (albeit with an occasional check on it of-course - the numbers are of-course your baseline).
Which unless my memory is getting dodgy in my old age, is how I was taught to fly, and I imagine most other people too.
I'd also expect within the first hour to be thinking about attitudes, not 1000.
G

i didn't misunstand you, just struggled to see the link between saying do this, then do that.

nose attitude is all good (in fact imho is correct) but at <10 hrs, and different flap settigns, i would hazard a guess that the nose attitude picture has not been remembered - full flap in a 172 is nothing like full flap in a 152 (as you know), so in the first instance, fly the numbers, THEN check the attitude and keep that picture.

coming in steep at 60kts and full flap in a 172 is an attitude that would scare some piper drivers :)

[Final 3 Greens]

coming in steep at 60kts and full flap in a 172 is an attitude that would scare some piper drivers

Possibly, but is shouldn't.

A lovely aircraft for shorter strips and I speak as someone with many more PA28 hours; If available length is tight, take the Cessna.

[Slopey]

Gee, I don't suppose anybody ever thought of leaving the flaps UP until short final to your selected emergency field? :hmm:
You go ahead and land with half flaps and 70 kts in an emergency if you want, I'll take 40 flaps and 40-ish kts any day.

Whoops - should have clarified, I did'nt mean on an emergency landing, just as a general point - i.e. if you had 40 flaps on a standard approach and pulled the power back too early - if you weren't used to it you could be caught out by the subsequent high rate of descent.