View Full Version : PA28 rescued by Edinburgh ATC
ALTSEL
3rd Dec 2006, 18:29
Congratulations to Edinburgh ATSU, The EDI Fire Service and Scottish ATC for rescuing the PA28 Arrow G-BREP from what nearly turned out this afternoon to be a nasty accident in the Hills south of Edinburgh. We heard the a/c transiting from SAB VOR to Carlisle on Scottish early afternoon as we descended into EDI IFR from the South. From our view point inside controlled airspace the VFR flight seemed in jeopardy given severe gales, low cloud, mountain wave and turbulence at all levels. We both agreed from our cosy flight deck the route would be extremely challenging for the a/c!
As we taxied out at EDI an hour later a full emergency was in progress as Scottish and EDI ATSU had expertly rescued this a/c from a very unpleasant situation. The a/c’s approach in semi IMC and windshear from out over the Firth luckily resulted in a successful arrival onto 24 at EDI despite some very extreme manoeuvres on short final. Well done EDI ATC guy’s – a good job done well.
The pilot of the Halfpenny Green registered aeroplane needs to spend a while reflecting on his captaincy!
The Arrrow had been at Strathallan for the weekend and it looks and sounds like a must get home:confused: :suspect: :8 , will be now be a member of the glad to be on the ground brigade.
wbryce
4th Dec 2006, 10:52
Even though they maybe made the wrong decision in proceeding with the flight, they made the right decision in confessing and seeking help from ATC...I stay very near EDI and my roof nearly blew off yesterday so must've been a very intense flight. Good job to all involved, the terrain and weather system in Scotland can bite really bad if not treated with respect!
hobbit1983
4th Dec 2006, 11:31
Whilst I’m not in a position to judge whether or not this may have been a possibly fatal case of press-on-it is, it provokes sobering thought for myself as a newly-qualified PPL.
Good job to those who assisted the pilot in making a safe recovery, congratulations to the pilot (and any pax) on getting down safely.
Kirstey
5th Dec 2006, 09:51
Top "Rash Judgment" there ALTSEL!!
They're alive.. and the aeroplane is in one piece.. top result by everyone.
What is "Semi IMC"? and are you certain the pilot had not instrument qualifications?
I hear that the other husband is not very happy:O
this may have been a possibly fatal case of press-on-it is
There is no such thing. Every flight; indeed everything we do in our lives, is done under pressure of some kind.
If somebody wishes to fly from A to B and ends up in a mess due to weather, it not because they wanted to fly from A to B badly. It's because they did not know how to read the weather data and/or how to make enroute decisions regarding changes of plan or escape routes.
If a pilot wasn't particularly bothered about flying somewhere, he would stay at home and GA would disappear!
PPL training is largely to blame in this department. It needs to be modernised, with modern (internet) weather sources, etc.
So, let's stop using this meaningless "Pressonitis" expression and - if anything - start examining what exactly a pilot did to get into a pickle. That way, somebody might learn something. Pressonitis is something straight out of a retired and rather patronising RAF navigator and doesn't teach anybody anything useful.
sigmets forecasting severe turbulence for most of scotland and the whole of the London FIR below FL60 should eb a big clue as to how bad the conditoins were to fly in. These are available via the AFTN and not from modern briefing techniques.
Perhaps you could start a poll, TATC, on how many pilots have ever used a SIGMET ;)
I never have.
Also, a forecast of turbulence over the entire northern hemisphere (which is the type of "forecasting" we often get) is not going to be taken seriously by many.
The horrid weather was obvious, that I agree, and continues as I write this. But there were also perfectly flyable gaps within it. Something fairly basic went wrong here, and I don't think it was the pilot just really wanting to fly somewhere.
hobbit1983
5th Dec 2006, 12:42
IO540,
What I meant was that-
I'm by no means in any position to judge whether or not this incident was due to pilot error, i.e. continuing on when a diversion/route change would have been the prudent thing to do (which is what I was summing up as "press-on-itis").
Indeed, since it would be very wrong for me to assume that this was the case (given my levels of experience, limited info and so on) the only reason I talked about press-on-itis was to point this out whilst I said that this was a sobering thought for a newly qualified PPL, I wasn't necessarily assuming that this was the cause.
Anyway, I thought "press-on-itis" meant "to continue your flight regardless of other factors that may have a detrimental effect on your flight, due to the overriding desire not to accept changes to your plan"? Surely avoiding that situation due to pressure is worthwhile?
Yes, I just think that those decisions can be made dispassionately, if one has the right training.
How badly you want to get somewhere should not come into it very much.
NorthSouth
5th Dec 2006, 13:24
a forecast of turbulence over the entire northern hemisphere (which is the type of "forecasting" we often get) is not going to be taken seriously by many.
The horrid weather was obvious, that I agree, and continues as I write this. But there were also perfectly flyable gaps within itI don't have Sunday afternoon's F214 in front of me but I'd be very surprised if it showed anything other than very high winds at all levels. Flying over an area of hills up to 2674 feet in those conditions is bound to be very challenging. I don't see how 'we didn't take the forecast seriously', whatever methods one uses to obtain that forecast, could be deployed as an argument here.
NS
ALTSEL
5th Dec 2006, 13:32
KIRSTEY - I assure you I had a grand-stand view of the a/c arriving into EDI, the vis was poor by VFR standards with rain and drizzle and evil gust's with wind-shear at low level. The a/c was vectored to final from out over the water and literally hedge hopped all the way from the Crammond Inn on the waterfront to the 24 numbers, he even had to climb to hop over the railway track 400 mts from the r/w start and that was with some of the most weird maneuvers I have ever seen a PA28 perform. The planned trip from Perthshire to Carlisle via SAB VOR that afternoon in those conditions suggest to me the CAA should have a quite word in this bod’s ear
the CAA should have a quite word in this bod’s ear
Having a word with his instructor would be far more productive, but the CAA doesn't seem to do that. Here in the UK, when an instructor is done with a student he's done and there is very unlikely to be any comeback.
172driver
5th Dec 2006, 15:06
Well, there are MUCH better forecasts available than these forms put out by the Met Office.
Loads of info here
http://euro.wx.propilots.net/
and here
www.homebriefing.com
and here
http://www.eurometeo.com/english/maps
There are quite a few more, so if you want to have a pretty darn good picture of what's going on out there, all you need is an internet connection. These forms are, IMHO, completely useless, as they cover far too big an area. Btw, does anyone have the EGPH METAR for the time in question ? Just curious.....
Listen, all this crap about what we should think and say is rubbish, the weather on Sunday was of a degree, 70mph recorded in Perthshire during the day that no PPL in a small aircraft should have been flying and if they were at the stage of considering this then they should line up and have a brain transplant and the CAA should look more at this decision process.
May I also add short field take off 600m, grass, wet wet wet, muddy, no flaps!!!!!!!!!! head wind and still struggled to get off
This was a gross case of, have to get the girl home and I would suggest that THERE may be the reason for the request for Edinburgh, may be the passenger had more sense.
bigbadjetdriver
5th Dec 2006, 15:14
There was no instructor on board the aircraft. It was PPL w/IMC and 1 PAX.
Hopefully the FTO wil stop the idiot flying.
I meant the instructor who trained him. This pilot, it would appear, didn't know how to get weather and understand it. That itself is of no suprise to me; when I got my PPL I knew next to nothing.
You did not need any fancy weather forecast on Sunday from any web site or other, all you had to do was stand in the middle of the airfield and lean very forceabily forward and use the 2 things at the front of your head for the visabilty, or lack of it.
But of course the only thing that was being considered that weekend was a lot lower down.
wbryce
5th Dec 2006, 15:48
the weather that day was by far not flyable, it was one of the worst days ive seen this year...alot of flooding around my local area and alot of rivers burst it banks in the borders.
rustle
5th Dec 2006, 16:03
There is no such thing [as press-on-it-is]. Every flight; indeed everything we do in our lives, is done under pressure of some kind.
We talked about this HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2970979#post2970979) recently, and you admitted (a few posts after mine) that you were being pedantic.
What's happened to change that opinion? :8
PS: When you or FA quote people can you please use the quote tool so we know who you're quoting? (like what I did above) TIA :)
Ridgerunner
5th Dec 2006, 16:22
He needs to learn to get the weather? I only had to listen to my window banging all night in my third story flat to realise it would be stupid to attempt a GA flight. Look out the window! Step outside and get blown off your feet, is that not enought weather information?
Kaptain Kremen
5th Dec 2006, 17:56
I meant the instructor who trained him. This pilot, it would appear, didn't know how to get weather and understand it. That itself is of no suprise to me; when I got my PPL I knew next to nothing.
How do we know to blame the instructor? Surely the examiner who tested him at PPL and at IMC would have needed to see his wx planning? His test would have had to have been done by someone other than his instructor. I find it unlikely that the pilot can blame not being taught wx prep as an excuse; not impossible, but unlikely.
wbryce
5th Dec 2006, 18:29
Well its a bit like holding a driver instructor accountable for the actions of one of his past students...instructors teach students to fly, examiners asses their ability...if they pass then surely the instructors done his job to an acceptable standard?
Maybe complacency was a key factor in this one?
It was not complacency W, but scared that they would be caught, the decisision making process was nothing to do with flying weather, instructers lack of training or any other smoke screen. This was about we better get home before we get caught by the husband and that is what is criminal about the events, even PPL's should be able demonstrate a level of professionalism towards safety even when the thing in there pants is taking over. The forecast for the complete weekend was, as I am sure you will agree extremly marginal and you have to question this decision to fly to Scotland from the outset, given also the certainty of the seriousness of the weather forecast
Not a bad choice but one made for no consideration to anything to do with flying and it is for this reason that the CAA should be investigating these events without sympathy.
moggiee
5th Dec 2006, 23:39
I hear that the other husband is not very happy:O
Care to enlighten us as to why you think you know so much about the pilot's private life and why you feel it appropriate to comment upon it in the first place?
I do feel humbled by the presence of so many perfect pilots who have never made a mistake in their flying "lives" - I wish I was perfect too!
Flyin'Dutch'
6th Dec 2006, 07:28
Care to enlighten us as to why you think you know so much about the pilot's private life and why you feel it appropriate to comment upon it in the first place?
I do feel humbled by the presence of so many perfect pilots who have never made a mistake in their flying "lives" - I wish I was perfect too!
I can not answer for AGES but from the postings it would seem he/she was pretty close to the point of departure of this flight.
On the point of being perfect I'd say few people are, but most pilots would have be able to spot this one coming.
METAR EGPD 030850Z 17024KT 7000 RA FEW012 09/07 Q0967 RERA TEMPO BKN014
METAR EGPD 030920Z 19017G27KT 9999 FEW028 SCT036 09/05 Q0967 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 030950Z 19018G30KT 9999 R16/0800 -RA SCT025 SCT035 08/05 Q0967 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031020Z 20018G30KT 9999 R16/0800 FEW020 BKN028 08/05 Q0968 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031050Z 19017KT 9999 R16/0800 FEW025 07/04 Q0967 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031120Z 20016G28KT 9999 R16/0200 SCT030 08/04 Q0967 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031150Z 20017G28KT 9999 FEW028 08/03 Q0967 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031220Z 19017KT 9999 FEW028 07/02 Q0966 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031250Z 19020KT 9999 FEW032 07/02 Q0965 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031320Z 18024G38KT 9999 -DZ BKN035 08/04 Q0965 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031350Z 18020G30KT 9000 -RA SCT018 BKN023 07/05 Q0964 TEMPO BKN012
METAR EGPD 031420Z 19022G32KT 9999 SCT014 07/04 Q0963 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031450Z 18022G33KT 9999 SCT015 SCT028 07/04 Q0963 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031520Z 18017KT 9999 SCT016 BKN023 07/05 Q0963 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031550Z 18018G28KT 9999 FEW023 SCT043 07/05 Q0962 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031620Z 18017KT 9999 -DZ FEW018 SCT024 07/05 Q0962 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031650Z 19013KT 9999 FEW028 07/05 Q0962 NOSIG
METAR EGPD 031720Z 19010KT 9999 FEW017 SCT030 07/05 Q0961 NOSIG
Captain Smithy
6th Dec 2006, 10:22
...I saw this thread and it was interesting to read. Good to hear everyone was OK - well done to EDI ATC.
On this subject, I saw on Saturday afternoon what looked like a King Air performing tight turns (looked like 45 Degrees) at very low altitude (looked below 1000' to me) over Edinburgh, near the Blackford Hills... can anyone cast any light on this?
Cheers
Smithy from EDI
TheFox
6th Dec 2006, 11:25
It was the flight calibrator
Captain Smithy
6th Dec 2006, 12:31
I see... I was more than a little curious as to what it was. Thanks for the info.
Smithy
The aircraft had departed from a site not more than 20 miles north of Edinburgh. Regardless of SIGMET availability etc, that day's Form 215 clearly stated that there was Severe Turbulence throughout the Scottish FIR below 6000 feet, not to mention the other weather that was around (our TAF was giving gusts of 55 kts, from memory). I have no idea about his motives, pressonitis or otherwise, but am aware that it created a fair amount of additional workload for EDI ATC, plus the emergency services etc who were called out to attend the possible incident. We were all just thankful that it ended the way it did, with the aircraft and occupants safely on the ground, albeit rather shaken up!