View Full Version : Overtaking
pigs are us
23rd Nov 2006, 09:43
First post, ppl student, 23 hours
Why overtake on the right in the air but on the left on the ground?
MSP Aviation
23rd Nov 2006, 13:03
you guys pass on the left on the ground? WE pass on the left...
AlphaMale
23rd Nov 2006, 13:11
If you look at a lot of things in the cockpit / air law it's mainly to the US standard. It's like the question of switches being up for 'on' or down for 'on' :confused:
Not sure what your doing with overtaking on the left mind you?!? Unless there is a Worcestershire in the states?
Andy
Airbus38
23rd Nov 2006, 13:26
Sorry AlphaMale, but as far as I can see, Rule 37 part 4(c) says
"a flying machine which is being overtaken shall have the right-of-way, and the overtaking flying machine shall keep out of the way of the other flying machine by altering its course to the left until that other flying machine has been passed and is clear, notwithstanding any change in the relative positions of the two flying machines."
Which sounds to me like you should overtake on the left, so the original question stands. And in response to the question - I have no idea.
chrisN
23rd Nov 2006, 13:52
I understand that the Rules of the Air were derived mostly from international maritime law, where many of the issues had been resolved. In ships/boats, you keep right as you pass: "When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other". (Note - overtaking seems to be be different - it is simply necessary to keep clear, if there is room either way). Why UK chose left for roads is more the mystery - though as UK invented it for roads first, the rest of the world should have followed. Napoleon, however, decided differently for France, no doubt USA rebelled against the former colonial rulers in principle, and so it went on. I was told that the rule of the road (UK) was actually based on keeping the horseman's sword hand free to defend against somebody coming the other way, but that might be apocryphal.
Re roads and the sea - A. P Herbert, lawyer, author and playwright of humorous inclination, wrote a series of "misleading cases" pointing up anomalies in the law. His fictional character, Mr. Haddock, was accused of colliding in his boat with a car. His defence was that rowing up the River Thames, he kept right, as he should according to maritime law. The river had flooded over the road at Richmond (?). Along the road, travelling through the flood waters, was the injured party in his car, keeping, as he should on a road, to the left. Hence the collision.
So what does a hovercraft do when moving from water to land? Is it a ship, an aircraft or a land vehicle for legal purposes?
What should vehicles do airside at aerodromes, when meeting a taxying aircraft?
Chris N.
GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
23rd Nov 2006, 14:06
Sorry AlphaMale, but as far as I can see, Rule 37 part 4(c) says
"a flying machine which is being overtaken shall have the right-of-way, and the overtaking flying machine shall keep out of the way of the other flying machine by altering its course to the left until that other flying machine has been passed and is clear, notwithstanding any change in the relative positions of the two flying machines."
Which sounds to me like you should overtake on the left, so the original question stands. And in response to the question - I have no idea.
No! you've read it wrong; "shall keep out of the way of the other aircraft by altering course to the right". In an aeroplane, the driver sits in the left hand seat. Overtaking on the right allows clear and uninterrupted visibility of the A/C that has right of way.
Airbus38
23rd Nov 2006, 14:09
Well, I just copied and pasted that from the ANO. In the air it says alter course to the right, on the ground to the left. Which bit did I read wrongly?
newcastlebloke
23rd Nov 2006, 14:37
The original post is correct; overtake on the right in the air, and left on the ground.
I believe it's so the pilot of the overtaken aircraft can see you more easily; as aircraft on the ground are likely to be in closer proximity than those in the air, so you don't appear out of the blue.
:ok:
Pilotdom
23rd Nov 2006, 15:11
You alter course to the right so that the aircraft you are overtaking passes you on you left. As you will be sitting in the left hand seat you will have a full view of the aircraft and be able to make sure you give enough clearance to the aircraft you are overtaking. Simple!
denhamflyer
23rd Nov 2006, 15:36
that applys in the AIR. On the GROUND you pass to the left i.e. you are in the vision of the pilot on the ground.
Why???? I would also like to know.:confused:
Shaggy Sheep Driver
23rd Nov 2006, 15:41
If you look at a lot of things in the cockpit / air law it's mainly to the US standard. It's like the question of switches being up for 'on' or down for 'on'
Except mag switches actually work the UK way. When the switch is up, it's 'off', open circuit, like a domestic light switch, and the mag is enabled. When it's down, the switch is closed, completing the circuit to earth, and the mag is grounded.:confused:
SSD
metar
23rd Nov 2006, 15:59
Funnily enough I've always wondered why it's different in the air and on the ground. Thankfully I've never been asked as an instructor!
denhamflyer
23rd Nov 2006, 16:10
Interesting point - can a helicopter overtake on the right since it has to be in the air even if taxiing?? or do you overtake on the left when taxiing?
At what height are you considered to be in the air? (e..g AFIS gives advice for the air and instruction for the ground movements... I assume that applies to helicopters)
IO540
23rd Nov 2006, 17:42
Note also that under FAA one overtakes on the ground on the other side from the UK CAA.
GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
23rd Nov 2006, 20:06
Well, I just copied and pasted that from the ANO. In the air it says alter course to the right, on the ground to the left. Which bit did I read wrongly?
Err, umm; do you think we'll have any weather tomorrow?
Well, actually, you didn't read the Rules wrongly. Mr Thicky, here, read your Post wrongly. Please accept my unreserved apologies.
The reason for the overtaking rules being as they are is the interaction with the other rules for avoiding collisions.
For example if an aircraft follows a line feature by keeping to the right of it then it makes sense to require another aircraft overtaking to be further to the right of the line feature. If it was the other way round, the overtaking aircraft could be in a situation of not being able to overtake without moving to the incorrect side of the line feature.
Head to head - not nice to turn right to avoid colision only to find onself turning towards a faster moving aircraft also head-on. Also not nice to be overtaking and see an aircraft ahead but be unable to turn right for collision avoidance because the aircraft one is overtaking is in the way.
While overtaking an aircraft on it's (incorrect) left, one notices a third aircraft converging from the right. It is now impossible to alter course to the right because the aircraft being overtaken is in the way.
Overtake on the right in the air works best.
On the ground, aircraft are expected to keep to the right when taxying unless ground signals or markings indicate otherwise. The when taxying along a wide grass strip, one should taxy on the right. If one complies with this, then the only option available for an overtaking aircraft on the ground is to pass on the left.
Regards,
DFC
tmmorris
24th Nov 2006, 08:28
Thanks DFC, that actually makes sense. I don't think I ever knew that you were supposed to keep to the right while taxying...
Tim
IO540
24th Nov 2006, 08:42
On the ground, aircraft are expected to keep to the right when taxying unless ground signals or markings indicate otherwise. The when taxying along a wide grass strip, one should taxy on the right. If one complies with this, then the only option available for an overtaking aircraft on the ground is to pass on the left
Do you have an ICAO reference for this, DFC?
I have a suspicion this is UK CAA only.
MSP Aviation
24th Nov 2006, 14:24
i misunderstood the original post. i thought he meant overtaking on the left in autos on the ground (which would be weird, as you guys drive on the left). i'm not sure in what situation one would overtake another moving aircraft on the ground?
Our FARs state that "Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear."
maybe you guys took it from us?
they don't specify for ground operations. they only give guidelines for water ops which require that "Each aircraft or vessel that is being overtaken has the right-of-way, and the one overtaking shall alter course to keep well clear"
IO540
24th Nov 2006, 14:30
Our FARs state that "Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear."
That's right, that is the FAA position and applies to both ground and air, according to my FAA CPL instructor.
Here in the UK, you are supposed to overtake on the right in the air but on the left on the ground. This is weird, because (one would assume) the reason for overtaking on the right is to enable the pilot of the overtaking aircraft to retain a good view of the one being overtaken, and he can't do that (in a conventional LH/RH seat configuration aircraft) if overtaking on the left.
As to why anybody would overtake on the ground at all, that's another story. I have seen it when taxiing at certain uncontrolled airfields, when I was taxiing carefully to avoid prop damage, and somebody else (presumably, driving a rented plane while being charged for brakes-off to brakes-on as is the UK norm) was in a rush and went past me. However, I have had people go past me on both sides, in that situation :yuk:
chrisN
24th Nov 2006, 15:17
Assuming that Newcastlebloke got it right in saying earlier that "The original post is correct; overtake on the right in the air, and left on the ground", surely the reasons are not difficult to see.
In the air, a potential head-on conflict is to be resolved by altering course to the right. Like ships, aircraft are require to pass port to port. Whether an aeroplane with pilot in the left seat or heli with pilot on the right. So if you overtook on the left, and the overtaking aircraft were in potential conflict with a head-on one coming the other way, and/or following a line feature which it is required to keep on the left, overtaking on the left would put the overtaker at risk of hitting the conflicting aircraft or going the wrong side of a line feature. With no lateral restriction on where to go, it is possible and safer to go right.
On the ground, if an overtaking manoeuvre is possible, it can only be where there is a fairly wide manoeuvring area. Then it is like a multilane highway in the USA or continental Europe. Normally a single aircraft would have to keep to the right, giving oncoming traffic the widest possible clearance. If you overtake (if safe to do so) you have to move to the left - just like getting into an overtaking lane on a USA/continental highway - because the one being overtaken is already as far to the right as it can reasonably be. This puts you closer to traffic coming the other way, so you have to be sure it is safe to do so - that the "road" is wide enough.
What is hard to understand about it?
Chris N.
MSP Aviation
24th Nov 2006, 17:05
i understand, just couldn't think of an instance of a moving aircraft overtaking another moving aircraft on the ground on the same taxiway, unless taxiing is taking place on an unused runway, but most uncontrolled fields only have one runway... and i can't imagine any ground controllers being too happy if one aircraft passed another...
chrisN
24th Nov 2006, 17:06
SoCal, It has to do with not hitting something head on while overtaking another aircraft going in the same direction.
Chris N.
IO540
24th Nov 2006, 17:15
Uncontrolled fields may have just one runway but if the taxiway is just a wide grass area (which it often is, e.g. Old Sarum) then two planes can easily pass each other.
Whether it is wise is another matter. The person overtaking better be quick with his power checks (he probably will be, since he is in a rush).
On the ground, aircraft are expected to keep to the right when taxying unless ground signals or markings indicate otherwise. The when taxying along a wide grass strip, one should taxy on the right. If one complies with this, then the only option available for an overtaking aircraft on the ground is to pass on the left
Do you have an ICAO reference for this, DFC?
I have a suspicion this is UK CAA only.
You are correct - it is not ICAO. The ICAO rules of the air simply require the aircraft overtaking on the ground to remain well clear and gives right of way to the aircraft being overtaken.
Regards,
DFC
TheOddOne
26th Nov 2006, 09:21
A few posts ago, someone asked about vehicles overtaking aircraft.
Our Manoeuvring Area drivers have 'Freeranging' priviledges in normal visibility.
We teach them
a) Plan your route to keep out of the way of the aircraft
b) if a part of your route means that you are going to pass an aircraft head-on, then keep to the right, i.e. pass port-to-port
c) if you are going to overtake, do so on the commander's side, i.e. drive down the port side of the aircraft.
However, since all our aircraft are (supposed to!) follow the yellow centreline on taxiways and are likely to make turns at intersections, sometimes it makes tactical sense to overtake on the right side. It would be silly to overtake on the left, then have the vehicle/aircrat paths cross shortly afterward.
However, we mostly keep to rule a) above.
If we need to do b) we teach people to pull over so that the crew can clearly see that we've spotted them and are giving way. We normally get a cheery wave but some crews either don't see us or think we're too lowly to acknowledge.
TOO
Vedeneyev
27th Nov 2006, 16:46
Which reminds me of the time when the CAA's consultation on charges was raising my heckles: Has anyone actually ever paid the £97 for an "Exemption in relation to overtaking (Rule 17(4) of the Rules of the Air)". Few people seem to be able to remember which side the rule states, let alone require an exemption from it. Yet another bureaucratic irrelevance, which kinda sums up the CAA really....
Kaptain Kremen
30th Nov 2006, 13:10
Maybe it's a throwback from times prior to runways, when open fields were used- rather like some gliding sites today. I'm thinking that as you are supposed to land on the right of another aircraft (hence vacating left off runways unless advised) it would be wise to overtake on the left on the ground to avoid a collision with landing aircraft. Again I'm guessing, but maybe it is more difficult to remove this rule as there are still some places that still use a field rather than a runway.
KK
tangovictor
1st Dec 2006, 00:05
A few posts ago, someone asked about vehicles overtaking aircraft.
Our Manoeuvring Area drivers have 'Freeranging' priviledges in normal visibility.
We teach them
a) Plan your route to keep out of the way of the aircraft
b) if a part of your route means that you are going to pass an aircraft head-on, then keep to the right, i.e. pass port-to-port
c) if you are going to overtake, do so on the commander's side, i.e. drive down the port side of the aircraft.
However, since all our aircraft are (supposed to!) follow the yellow centreline on taxiways and are likely to make turns at intersections, sometimes it makes tactical sense to overtake on the right side. It would be silly to overtake on the left, then have the vehicle/aircrat paths cross shortly afterward.
However, we mostly keep to rule a) above.
If we need to do b) we teach people to pull over so that the crew can clearly see that we've spotted them and are giving way. We normally get a cheery wave but some crews either don't see us or think we're too lowly to acknowledge.
TOO
this question came up in my air law exam today, it was worded, with no reference to overtaking on the ground, just potential collison course's,
which are as said both to the right,
overtaking on the ground to the left,
if you have yet to to your air law exam, watch out, don't confuse yourself !
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