Extra landing fees if the runway lights are needed? [Archive]

Say again s l o w l y

29th Oct 2006, 16:31

Just a quick question for everyone.

Has anyone else been to an airfield that doubles it's landing fees if you ask for the landing lights to be turned on?

I finally saw confirmation that my homefield does and I'm horrified and kicking up a stink about it. Is this normal? I've never seen it before, but not having been to every airfield on the planet I'm not sure if this is isolated or not.

Would AOPA be interested in this? I think it's a safety issue, in the same way that people shouldn't be charged for wx diverts, as if they need to act, the financial aspects should never ever be thought of.

IO540

29th Oct 2006, 16:34

Tirana (LATI) charges Euro 230 for a landing + 3 nights' parking, plus Euro 10 for the runway lights (if you land at night).

scooter boy

29th Oct 2006, 17:04

Plymouth goes up by a factor of 4 at 8pm lcl.(Usually open 06h30-22h30 lcl)
Both my aircraft are on a block ldg fee there so it makes no odds to me but if you were a visitor and landed at 20h01 or later the fee becomes exorbitant (whether the lights are turned on or not):confused:

SB

Gertrude the Wombat

29th Oct 2006, 17:10

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

It costs money to install and maintain the lights, and no doubt to get them inspected and lots of other things. Oh, and a little extra for the electricity to run them I suppose.

Why on earth should you get them for free???

Or, to put it anyother way, why should people who never use the lights pay for your use of them???

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Lucy Lastic

29th Oct 2006, 17:14

I know of a field who charge an extra £5 for the use of the lights, but I think that is not unreasonable.

But my bug-bear is Exeter. A friend and I got caught out landing a few minutes after the stated hours (19.00hrs on a Saturday in July!) and got hammered for out of hours charges, even though ATC were there and the airfield wasn't especially busy.

They are not part of the Strasser campaign, and should be ashamed of themselves

TCAS FAN

29th Oct 2006, 17:25

Right on Gertrude the Wombat!

Agree 300 %, it often escapes the GA community that airports/aerodromes operate as businesses. I've lost count of the times that I've been stood behind someone who has been asked for a £15 landing fee, only to reply "how much? I just wanted to land here, not buy the place!"

PS, I love all Beavers whether powered by a piston, turbine or two legs!

gcolyer

29th Oct 2006, 17:56

Why on earth should you get them for free???

Good question.

How about becasue in good ole USA you get them for free. I have landed at international airports in a spamcan at night and during the day. I have even been picked up by some bloke in a golf cart and taken to the FBO where i then had free coffee and buscuits. Chilled out on some nice big leather sofa's wathcing Sky, then i made full use of the self briefing services, had some more coffee then asked the bloke to take me back to my plane in the golf cart....All free!!!

IO540

29th Oct 2006, 18:06

Not free, GC. Subsidised.

Subsidised by both frequent flyers, and by the local and general taxpayer.

Frequent flyers will always subsiside infrequent flyers... same with road users.

The problem with Europe is that it doesn't have any frequent flyers. There aren't enough airfields, there aren't anywhere near enough airfields with instrument approaches (essential for business travel), and the IR (essential for business travel) has never been as hard to get as it is now.

LH2

29th Oct 2006, 18:23

Good question.

How about becasue in good ole USA you get them for free.

Not just in the USA. Just the other day I landed VFR at certain major international airport in France. Got picked up by a van, shown to the pilot's room, etc. just as you describe---I then went to pay the landing fees (which are only €5.- or about £3, to start with) and the lady there said "oh, the computer's broken, so we're not charging anything". As I said, it was at a major airport with lots of traffic and we were only a spamcan in a VFR flight plan---still, the service we got was just as great as that given to all the big jets in front of us. All free of charge to us.

How in the UK they manage to charge many times the amounts requested in France and still not be able to afford to pay for the lights is anyone's guess :confused:

Fuji Abound

29th Oct 2006, 18:35

They will be charging extra if you drive at night next. After all the lights are all on, and there are those that wouldnt venture out at night.

gcolyer

29th Oct 2006, 19:06

Not free, GC. Subsidised.

Fair do's

The problem with Europe is that it doesn't have any frequent flyers. There aren't enough airfields, there aren't anywhere near enough airfields with instrument approaches (essential for business travel), and the IR (essential for business travel) has never been as hard to get as it is now.

Could this not be because of the exceedingly high prices compared to further afieled? And over kill on regulations? Especialy in the UK.

As for the IR...it certainly is not cheap to obtain..the worst part is the up keep of it..at least in the U.S you are not going to pay to keep to practice instrument approaches (I am not sure if this is a correct assumption).

All I am saying is..with the high costs of landing an SEP in the UK I think it is a bit much to charge for switching on some runway lights.

Say again s l o w l y

29th Oct 2006, 19:24

Since this airfield isn't open after 5 during the winter and only until 8 during the summer, there are very few who ever use them for night flying, especially as the gates are usually locked 30 seconds after the licence finishes. I've only used them once in 2 years and even then I had to fight to get them put on, even though I'd given notice 5 hours earlier that I'd be returning just after dark. My point isn't about landing at night, but if you ask for them during the day.

If the wx turns nasty and someone is having trouble finding the field, then having the lights on could be an enormous help. i.e safer.
If there is a charge to be made, this could introduce an element of doubt at the worst possible moment. If there are no lights, then so be it, but to charge extra for what could be a safety device is a bit over the top. To me this is exactly the same argument that is made about landing fee's and wx diverts and we all agree on that.

Do they cost more to run, yes of course, but the landing fees are already well over the top. Doubling it up to £20 a landing for a homebased machine is a bit steep. Especially since they are about as useful as the lights on my Christmas tree. As for the money spent on maintenance......... It only costs something if you do anything!

pistongone

29th Oct 2006, 19:26

I was Dropping off a couple at Elstree and they charged me £20 extra for the lights, as it was 10 minutes after Sun Down but still as bright as you like:confused: I never requested them, but was charged anyhow! To add insult to injury, i was kept waiting at the hold for 15 minutes to depart the next day (they are an A/G field but i need to go there often so need to keep them sweet!) I would have been ok to go many times,, but the RADIO OPERATOR (call sign Elstree Radar!:yuk: ) Kept me holding @£3.00/minute!!! So that cost me an extra £65.00 Cheers.:D I know flying is expensive, but i could have taken my wife for a reasonable dinner for not much more, and i know which i would have prefered:ok: I understand all the arguments for and against, But lets face it a field must make the large part of its income from services and charges to the based aircraft and schools etc. Surely thats the way it is in the States? Cant see places like Teterborough getting much in the way of Taxpayers subsidies? And the tax in the states is much less than here! Better get off the politics as it gets me going!

'India-Mike

29th Oct 2006, 19:26

SAS

What sort of increase are you talking about? I doubling the fee raises it to £10 from £5 so what? Or is it the principle of the thing?

If the difference is significant eg for night circuit training, could the 'extra' cost more profitably be spent with a transit to a lower-cost aerodrome?

Say again s l o w l y

29th Oct 2006, 19:34

'I-M,
As before homebased a/c £10 upto £20. If it were a twin, it would take it to nearly £50 if it was a visitor!

An extra £1 or two I could understand, but doubling already exorbitant fee's is taking the p**s in my eyes.

There's no night training at the mo' as the airfield want to charge extra for extending the licence into dark. £40 an hour! On top of the doubled up landing fees!

mark147

29th Oct 2006, 22:41

An extra £1 or two I could understand, but doubling already exorbitant fee's is taking the p**s in my eyes.OK, which airfield are we talking about? Might be worth others knowing.

Personally, I'd rather airfields charged a bit for landing at night if that meant that more would stay open after sunset in the first place. However, charging for use of the lights (rather than charging for landing at night) seems wrong and a potential safety issue.

Mark

Slopey

29th Oct 2006, 22:45

They will be charging extra if you drive at night next. After all the lights are all on, and there are those that wouldnt venture out at night.

Well, if the government have their way, there'll be a "light bulb tax". So you'll need to stock up on candles!

englishal

29th Oct 2006, 23:45

What a stupid pricing policy. Why not take the number of times they are turned on divided by the number of landings and then add the cost of running the lights to every landing fee (pence probably). Bournemouth turned them on for me the other day when landing in a rain shower.... :ok:

Maybe they will be charging us to use NDBs, VORs and even radar next. If so maybe we should submit bills for interrogating our Mode S transponders when we have to buy them.

We have pilot controlled lighting at our unlicensed field.....but shhh, it is a secret ;)

AlexEvans

30th Oct 2006, 02:34

I would have been ok to go many times,, but the RADIO OPERATOR (call sign Elstree Radar!:yuk: ) Kept me holding @£3.00/minute!!! So that cost me an extra £65.00 Cheers.:D

What? They charge you when you are at the holding point waiting to take off?

:mad:!!!

Is this common elsewhere?

If so, I need to consider that when choosing a suitable FTO.

Any other shocks in store?

Hour Builder

30th Oct 2006, 06:40

What? They charge you when you are at the holding point waiting to take off?
:mad:!!!
Is this common elsewhere?
If so, I need to consider that when choosing a suitable FTO.
Any other shocks in store?
I think he was talking about holding while airbourne, and the fuel he was buring cost £3/min.
If Elstree call themselves Elstree radar, why not ask for FRS? :ok:

S-Works

30th Oct 2006, 07:42

I think he was talking about holding while airbourne, and the fuel he was buring cost £3/min.
If Elstree call themselves Elstree radar, why not ask for FRS? :ok:

Nah, he was talking about sitting at the hold on the ground. I went into Elstree the other day to pick up Drauk and the radio guy was as miserable as sin as ever. If he hates the job that much why not go and get another??

We have Pilot Operated lights at our place and they cost me a beer to run. Came back from Le Touquet last night(twice in 2 days now!) airways in the dark and very comforting to know there were no restrictions.

I do seem to recall that LFAT made a charge for putting on the lights as well?

Darth_Bovine

30th Oct 2006, 07:44

I think he was talking about holding while airbourne, and the fuel he was buring cost £3/min.
If Elstree call themselves Elstree radar, why not ask for FRS? :ok:

More likely holding short at the runway threshold and watching the hobbs tick away at £3 per minute.

Lucy Lastic

30th Oct 2006, 08:45

So far, touch wood, I've had no problems with the Elstree bunch, except when I called them 'Elstree Radio' and was sharply reminded they were 'Elstree Information'.

But surely not Elstree Radar.......!

pistongone

30th Oct 2006, 11:54

Yes it was holding on the Bravo taxi way for 26. It was in a well known Cherokee six from Turweston and positioning back there, at over £190.00/hr waiting isn't what you want to be doing too much of.:ugh: Who remembers Geofrey with his Windsock colour trousers? It was rumoured he could drown out the transmission from Capital Radio's mast on long final for 26! Bose, I am not surprised to hear they are still "miserable as sin" there! Trouble is, its very handy for a lot of my friends:( :( So I need to keep them happy and comply with their silly requirements.

unfazed

30th Oct 2006, 13:10

gcolyer

30th Oct 2006, 13:51

robin

30th Oct 2006, 15:16

Just thought of another money spinner for UK aviation
How about we have telescopic windsocks and if you want to use them they have to be switched on and extended ......
No wait, we could also hide the numbers on the runway and only illuminate them for a fee.....
Gosh there is no end to this how about a take off fee ?......
Yes I am being ironic but it is absolutely daft to charge for landing lights, how mean can you get !:\

At an airfield I visit from time to time, the landing fee has remained static. They have just put in runway lighting, but kept the landing fee the same.

However, they make a small additional charge for the lights when used.

So are you suggesting that day-time VFR pilots should pay a higher landing fee to include the facility of runway lights for the few who actually use them?

Yes, when spread across the totality of landings, the increase in the landing fee would be small, but this is a service for the few, and the maintenance of the lights is related to the usage - much the same as the hourly rates we calculate on our group-owned aircraft.

Sounds to me that some of you want your facilities paid for by others :=

unfazed

30th Oct 2006, 17:46

Robin

I think that this type of issue goes quite deep and relates to "attitude"

There are national stereotypical attitudes that are so ingrained we may not even see them until we experience another attitude that works equally well or better hence the posts relating to the attitude to this type of thing in other countries.

If you had to pay a man to wind a crank handle and stay up all night in the freezing rain until the last aircraft landed then yes we might want to chip in and buy him a pint or two for his efforts however we are talking about pilot controlled lighting which uses minimal electrons and increases safety....

It's laughable that we have an attitude where every single penny has to be accounted for and paid only by those who benefit.....lets be honest what we really have is a fixed market with a number of monopoly players charging what they think they can get away with because nobody challenges them (or if they do they are unfarly disadvantaged).

I had a situation recently where the landing fees depended on who the pilot was X pounds for Mr Bloody popular and 2.5 times that amount for anyone else (no he doesn't own the airfield either). Beggars belief but I think that this kind of unequal and unnecessary pricing is unethical and illegal - CAA rules as they stand seem to favour existing monopoly operators who like the system as it stands and if you don't like it tough luck.

Rant over !:{

Lucy Lastic

30th Oct 2006, 19:07

It's laughable that we have an attitude where every single penny has to be accounted for and paid only by those who benefit.....Rant over !:{

That's an interesting viewpoint. The Mode S issue is being fought on the basis of 'beneficiary pays'

And knowing someone who runs an airfield, they do take the view that everything needs to be accounted for, as does anyone trying to run a business. Like all businesses, the choices they make are down to them, and, yes, some are money-grabbers.

But if they don't cover their costs, and make enough profit to make it worthwhile, we won't have the facilities we need. Forums like this are helpful in pointing out those places where we are being taken to the cleaners and those who are good value.

Obviously, we'll all go to the good value ones, won't we?

unfazed

30th Oct 2006, 21:48

Lucy Lastic

Yes we should vote with our "wheels" but in a monopoly situation it is a bit more difficult to do that.

My point was that there are similar business operators in other countries who have refreshingly different attitudes, how else would you get free coffee if everything must be paid for by the beneficiary to the nearest penny ?

As long as the UK regulations favour this cosy monopoly system then we won't have the choice that we should have.

Come on EASA, shake up the system a bit and make things a bit fairer for us flyers.

'Chuffer' Dandridge

31st Oct 2006, 15:17

Every time i drive past Stapleford at night on the M25, the runway lights are on, although i never see any aircraft in the circuit. Does this mean that they do a lot of night flying, or does it mean that they never turn them off. Their leccy bill must be HUGE:(

scubawasp

1st Nov 2006, 10:05

Our club landed at LFAT and we where charged 44 Euros for the lights. We landed and shutdown 6 minutes before offical night, but as we got to the counter after offical night, we where charged.

unfazed

1st Nov 2006, 12:48

SCUBAWASP

Let me guess......You paid up without causing too much fuss ?

:hmm:

scubawasp

2nd Nov 2006, 09:31

Yes, at first I thought it was for more then one club aircraft. They did offer us two free landing fees (to be used during December).

bigflyingrob

3rd Nov 2006, 08:11

My favourite was as I recall XXXX some years ago when a Shadow landed and left by trailer. Guy pays his landing fees and all looks fine. Some months later owner get HUGE bill for parking as the computer said he was still there! Nobody actually looked. Dunno if it went to court or not but too many companies only want a cheque. Any letter you write is ignored and they just send out another "standard" letter.

bigflyingrob

3rd Nov 2006, 08:20

If you object to huge landing fees they maybe you should think about grass strip flying. Hunsdon charge about 3 quid and do excellent bacon butties. Colney make no charge at all but do check the website for no fly zones.
There are quite a few strips around and one has a Yak 50 using it so if you can't land on that then maybe a bit of practice is in order. :{ :{