View Full Version : Incident at PIK
Magic Blue
22nd Mar 2001, 02:05
Believe runway closed due to collapsed gear on landing of an aircraft training.Any details?Thankfully believe that nobody hurt.
jetstream7
22nd Mar 2001, 02:17
Apparently an Electra. Not sure if this means Atlantic or Channex
Aircraft are being diverted away from PIK
EGPFlyer
22nd Mar 2001, 02:38
It was an Atlantic on a training flight
Viscount
22nd Mar 2001, 05:14
Airport closed for a short while whilst fire service attended incident. Runway 21/03 operational shortly thereafter taking some Ryanair movements. 31/13 expected to be reopened in next 4 hours following removal of the Electra. Initial information is that the Electra port gear detached completely on touchdown causing the aircraft to slew off to the left hard shoulder.
BOEINGBOY1
22nd Mar 2001, 11:28
did he pass then ?
Magic Blue
22nd Mar 2001, 18:10
Glad to hear that nobody hurt and well done to all concerned in getting the airfield open again so quickly.
Patsy 001
22nd Mar 2001, 19:34
Sarky git Boeing Boy!! :rolleyes:
Techman
23rd Mar 2001, 03:04
I know this is unrelated to the accident, but I must mention that Atlantic is operating the Electra, which is designed to have a forward-facing FE, without an FE.
How could this ever be approved?.
Also, as always, may I say that I am happy that everyone escaped unhurt from this accident.
[This message has been edited by Techman (edited 22 March 2001).]
GotTheTshirt
23rd Mar 2001, 06:51
Techman,
Not sure of the details on Electra but the point is "forward facing FE"
This generally means that the flight crew can reach all the knobs !
Several exercises were done to eliminate FE on B727, DC10 and L1011 aircraft and the main object was to move all the side panel stuff to the front. I guess they decided there was not enough front cockpit space or it was cheaper to keep the FE!!
Engineer
23rd Mar 2001, 15:06
If I remember Atlantic started by replacing the FE with cpl pilots because of a shortage of FEs at the time Did not realise that the position had been eliminated completly Shame nice aircraft to fly. But interesting that the CAA approved this
Maybe if there had been an FE on this aircraft he might have notice something wrong with the gear on his pre flight walk around
[This message has been edited by Engineer (edited 23 March 2001).]
Capt Bankangle
23rd Mar 2001, 17:56
I hope I'm wrong but The last paragraph of the article in "Airliner World" April 2001 p.40 looks dangerously like a PR "foot in mouth" statement to me!
It is quoting a Commercial manager though.
GotTheTshirt
24th Mar 2001, 05:05
Techman,
As soon as you mention a topic something appears !!!
Within a period of only nine months SR Technics managed to find a
suitable infrastructure in Palmdale, to establish SR Technics
Palmdale, Inc. and to begin with the conversion work. In the near
record time of seven months, the first DC-10 was outfitted with a new
two-man cockpit - replacing the aircraft's original three-man version
- having the most modern technology, including Boeing's Advanced
Common Flightdeck (ACF), and new wiring throughout the entire
aircraft. Boeing is now conducting test flights on first aircraft,
before handing it over to FedEx.
Guess it WAS cheaper to get rid of the FE!!
freightdoggy dog
26th Mar 2001, 01:31
Seem to remember last year that an Atlantic
DC6 lost a main wheel on take off out of Coventry.Hit a lorry on the Coventry by-pass!
So can any of you kids at Atlantic who fly
the L188 please tell us how the hell you "de-boost" without an F/E, or does the flask of coffee do it?
Georgeablelovehowindia
26th Mar 2001, 02:37
Techman, the best of you are worth your weight in gold. Unfortunately, there are some of you who never seem to make the transition from sideways facing to forward facing, if you get my drift, and can be a total hazard to navigation.
I and several others watched an atlantic DC6 doing t and g 's at cov last year ,,the a/c trundled down the runway on only the nose wheel...apparently the handling pilot pushes fwd on the column to stop any shimmy...intersting to watch and if there had been any weight in the a/c perhaps slightly dodgy...saw this happen twice..
never2low
27th Mar 2001, 02:17
Freightdoggy,
What has a DC6 wheel got to do with L188 F/E's? Anyway you have a point about de-boosting, plus in the case of an incapacitation reaching everything necessary in the cockpit when straaped in would prove interesting!! If it's designed with 3 it should fly with 3!!!
The DC6 wheel incident did not occur last year, it was at least two or three years ago. And it did not hit a truck, It came to rest without hitting anything apart from a fence. The aircraft landed safely without further damage. But lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story.
The patronising reference to the 'kids' at Atlantic shows evidence of a large chip on your shoulder, freightdog. These kids are as capable as any other crews, and are well respected in the industry. The two-crew operation was obviously fully approved by the CAA and as far as I am aware is going well.
Engineer
28th Mar 2001, 01:13
CRX
Until something goes wrong and the umbrellas come out
Night Rider
28th Mar 2001, 15:12
Freightdoggy,
I fly DC-6`s for Atlantic - I`m in my mid twenties and do not consider myself or any of my collegues (on the six or the electra)to be kid`s!
Flight Mc Plan
28th Mar 2001, 15:25
Poor old G-LOFD. After the damage sustained due to it's "ground excursion" at EGPK recently, rumour has it that this airframe may now be written-off. Surely not.
Can anybody confirm/deny ?.
------------------
Davey Clark
28th Mar 2001, 17:33
Cycled past today, and a crane is in situ alongside lots of flashing lights. Let's hope she is up and better soon!
Davey.
P. Nesshead
28th Mar 2001, 18:14
Freight Dog,
Has the snow gone to your head?
Get back on the slopes, ski instructors are more useful than loadmasters!
Year 2010. Atlantic pilot twists ankle falling off Electra ladder. PPRuNe bombarded with claims that had there been a F/E, he would have prevented this accident.
When will this ridiculous argument end?
For those of you interested in facts, and I suspect that is not too many, here goes.
The Captain at the Prestwick incident holds a current FE License with TRE authority and the student under training was an Electra FE sponsored through pilot training by Atlantic at the two crew changeover.
Engineer, does your pre-flight include inspecting the inside of the oleo leg?
Freightdoggy. The Captain de-boosts the Electra by leaning down and pulling the handles with his right hand. If anything, the handles are nearer the Captain than the FE's seat. We don't find it too taxing!
As for the 'kids' at Atlantic, recent examples now work for BA, Virgin, Cathay, Monarch, Britannia, JMC, Sabena, Easyjet, Atlas, Air Contractors, Brymon, BEA, BRAL, GBAirways and British Midland. If you have a problem with these pilots, I suggest you fly Ryanair, because that's about the only place you won't find an Atlantic graduate.
Never2Low, your incapacitation point applies to any two crew operation, but it is covered annually in training and presents few problems. As we are all just 'kids', we are far less likely to keel over and have a coronary in the first place.
Finally, Thank you CRX for your support. It's nice to see someone hase more brains than opinions.
Engineer
28th Mar 2001, 20:35
SBA
A really nice first posting on the this network Well thought out and logically put.
By all accounts you know the Electra well.
No insult to freightdoggy but being a loadmaster can understand the limited info that he/she may possess about deboosting the Allison 501 D13 engine. But you as a "pilot??" must have first hand experience of this procedure. Could you explain this to me and whether the TD amp system should be in the controlled or locked phase.
As for the two crewmen I salute the progress made from FE to pilot. The captain is an FE TRE you state Who does he check and where. I assume on the sim at coventry. How does he do his line check? Moves from the LHS and sits in the centre one during flight maybe!
Your first post raises so many questions I dearly hope you as a pilot can enlighten me
PS Do you know what props the aircraft had Hamilton or aero products apparently these is an easy way to tell so I have been told
[This message has been edited by Engineer (edited 28 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Engineer (edited 28 March 2001).]
Captain Numpty
29th Mar 2001, 01:16
HEY NIGHTRIDER
I RECKON FREIGHTDOGGY IS JUST A JEALOUS LITTLE BOY!!!!
Never mind.......the most Clandestine C.N.
(You know who I am!!!)
[This message has been edited by Captain Numpty (edited 28 March 2001).]
Engineer. Happy to reply to your questions on the Electra, but as I am new to this, I can't quite get a grip on whether you are really interested, or just trying to catch me out. You have the benefit of the doubt, so here goes.
DeBoosting relates to the hydraulically assisted controls, which will gust lock should both hydraulic systems fail, or the electrical systems driving the hydraulics fail. In this event, three handles for elevator, rudder and aileron will override the hydraulic boost packs and give a mechanical advantage to the manual controls, leaving the aircraft heavy but manageable. The handles are located on the forward front area of the centre console, to the left side.
The TD amp trims the fuel input to the engine, and therefore the TIT. It has two positions, Locked and Controlled. We always operate in controlled, which in theory will prevent any turbine overtemp. The locked position will hold the fuel trim set by the amp, even with power lever movements, and has little or no useful purpose within the confines of our operation.
Regarding the props, they are aeroproducts. To the best of my knowledge, the only european example with Hamilton Standard props is G-FIZU, which is owned by Atlantic, but currently on long term dry lease to Channex. The aeroproducts prop has square tips, whereas the Hamilton Standard has round tips.
The Captain on G-LOFD is a current F/E TRE on the DC6. This is going to attract another torrent of anti Atlantic abuse about operation of multiple types, but we are happy with it, and I suspect the rest of you are just jealous.
Finally, will G-LOFD fly again. The odds look good at the moment, but she is obviously still to undergo some fairly stringent inspections.
Hope that answers all the questions. Thanks for the response.
HHmmmmm!!! The remarks section in the Log Book should be interesting reading ! Hey wot Smug !!!!!
Rgds
I Kid :) :) :) :)
A and C
2nd Apr 2001, 10:39
I have no doubt that the captain can reach down and de-boost the controls on the electra but is it a good idea ?.
the most likely chain of events is that an electrical problem would lead to the loss of A & B buss bars and so all hydrulic pumps so the drill has to be done in the dark on standby instruments add to this the 50% chance that the captain is PF then i think that the workload is going to be very high, i think i would far rather have another crew member to run the de-boost/electrical failure drill wile the captain flys the aircraft on the standby horizon without having to take his hands off the controls to reach the de-boost controls.
4Screwaircrew
2nd Apr 2001, 14:03
A and C is right far safer with the three man flight deck. Not that would have any bearing on the incident in PIK.
A & C,
If Bus A and Bus B are lost, and therefore both hydraulic pumps, the controls will be gust locked.
I can't see that it makes any difference who is holding the control column in this situation. In fact, part of the de-boost drill is to ensure that no pressure is applied to the control whilst de-boosting (ie Let go of the controls).