Shorts Belfast at Southend

[HZ123]

The HeavyLift Belfast (in addition to the QF 707) is also well on its way to becoming airborne again with all engines on and three with propellers that were run up several times last week. If anyone reading this has times and dates of any full engine runs and test flights I am sure many of us will be there to see this and the 707.

[windriver]

Can`t help directly with your question I`m afraid, but here it is sans props at the last published satellite pass... Remarkable image go for the birds eye view ..zoom in ... and see it from all directions.

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/Southend.html

[windriver]

It appears the oldest images are from about 1999 and the most recent ones come as they are served... 2005 being the most recent reported.
The airfield locations of course remain the same.

I have a requirement to compile a list of UK "flying sites" past and present, but in decimal lat long format for plotting and xml output. Every now and then I generate an index and publish some pages for general interest.

When I`ve completed it I'll make it available as a freebie download so anyone that's interested can use it as they wish.. eg Google Earth, WorldWind or whatever.

[Porrohman]

A lot of work appears to have been carried out if you compare this photo from April 06; http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1044434 ...with this photo from December 06; http://www.flugzeugbilder.de/show.php?id=569028

Porrohman.

[Jamie-Southend]

I think it also suffered some damage in the recent winds, as it was moved around 90 degrees, and i gather some damage has been done to the rear loading door.

[Porrohman]

Is the damage easily repairable? I hope so.

Does anyone know when test flying is due to commence?

Will it have to visit Prestwick for final checks and approvals before delivery to Oz?

Porrohmann.

[PIK3141]

I think you'll find he who was responsible for bringing the 1st Belfast to the Polar hangar at Prestwick has now departed and so the aircraft are not expected back here.

[Porrohman]

Does anyone know how the work on the Southend Shorts Belfast is progressing and when flight trials might commence?

[solent]

any update anyone seems to have gone all quiet!

[Dr Jekyll]

As a matter of passing interest, how did Heavy Lift go about getting a C of A for the Belfasts when they bought them? As far as I know the type never saw civil service previously.

[EGAC]

The first Belfast, XR362, was registered G-ASKE for its initial trials.

I don't know enough about registration regulations to say whether that would be relevant to the case of G-BEPS.

[Phileas Fogg]

Some of the type had seen civil service previously, the wings for example, on a Britannia :)

[411A]

The Belslow civil registration/certification was carried extensively years ago in Flight International.
It seems (as I recall) that the type required a stick pusher by the UKCAA, but in order to get the type into service sooner, another crew member was carried.
His sole duty was to keep an eye on the indicated airspeed, and if it got too low, he was to shout 'STALL, STALL'.

Strange, but true.:}

[Blacksheep]

The stall characteristics of the Belfast weren't good. The RAF solution was to operate with the stall warning settings well above the actual stalling speed.
In about 1973 a Belfast flying from Cyprus to Brize Norton suffered a failure of the tail de-icing system and the ice build up caused the aircraft to fly tail heavy. At one point they got below the the nominal stalling speed but with no stall warning. I was involved in the programme to reset the stall warning margins on the Belfast fleet. This was a very stomach churning experience - we flew with test equipment wired into the electrical 'cupboard' at the rear right side of the flight compartment and the aircraft could lose up to 5,000 feet in the recovery from a 'clean' stall. After our measurements, adjustments were made to the stall warning vane settings; the resulting stall warning margins were tested and found to give ample warning that the airspeed was getting precarously low, while still being safely above the actual stalling point for the various flap configurations. That solution ought to have sufficed for civil operations.

After a deep stall accident to a BAC1-11 the UKCAA seem to require a stick pusher on just about anything that has a pilot. Its a fact of aerodynamics that anything that can fly can and will stall if the pilot insists on ignoring the signs and/or warnings. I do know of an RAF VC10 incident where the Stall Ident System (i.e. Stick Pusher) activated without warning while close to the ground and the pilot, taken by surprise, almost lost his grip on the control wheel. Now that could have been just as nasty as a deep stall - I believe that Boeing's designers have it right - an accurate and reliable stall warning system is all that is needed.

[boris]

Blacksheep

The prototype BAC1-11 which crashed on Salisbury Plain due to a deep stall was being flown by Mike Lithgow, the then deputy chief test pilot of Vickers. Subsequently, the 1-11 was fitted with both hydraulically powered elevators and a stick push system. Lithgow was the pilot who flew the Swft to a short-lived world speed record of 735 mph in 1953.

The CAA pilot to whom you refer was perhaps D P Davies who was the Chief Airworthiness TP and was well known for the stick pusher requirements on such aircraft as the DC and B727. Davies was the author of the well-known book entitled 'Handling the Big Jets' which was/is the bible of aircraft behaviour for generations of multi-jet pilots.

Your remarks about the 1-11 and the UKCAA are both wrong in fact and a bit unfortunate in tone.

[Blacksheep]

Your remarks about the 1-11 and the UKCAA are both wrong in fact and a bit unfortunate in tone. The UKCAA has become notorious for requiring "safety" modifications over and above those required by the original certifying authority. Apart from the stick pusher requirement on virtually anything that has a control column there are plenty of other examples.

A legend has built up around them and that tale has twisted in the telling over the years, so yes, I was out of line regarding the BAC1-11 and I've edited my post accordingly.

I won't apologise for having a go at the CAA though, they're a fair target. We've had quite a bit of nonsense from them over the years, so I always have a dig at our Regional Manager whenever I get the chance and I always will. It helps to keep them straight.

[Porrohman]

Getting back to the original thread, has there been any progress towards getting the Southend Belfast airworthy again? There were reports of engine runs towards the end of 2006 and it was short of one propeller. Has any more work been done since then or has the project to get it airworthy again been abandoned?

[Splash Down]

News on the Belfast at Southend will be forthcoming in the coming few weeks this will happen once commercial confidentiality agreements are signed and an agreed press announcement is ready for release.

[GuppyEng.com]

commercial confidentiality agreements are signed and an agreed press announcement is ready for release.

Please enlighten us Splash Down.

[BEagle]

I was flying a VC10 on a flapless approach once when the stick pusher activated way above the correct speed. Fortunately I was able to overpower it and had the system dumped.

We found several faults:

1. An AoA probe was sticking. Instead of moving smoothly, the sudden movement was detected as a rapid approach to the stall, triggering the stall protection system earlier than normal due to 'phase advanc'.

2. The aircraft was just back from a prolonged detachment to a dry, dusty location and hadn't been washed for ages.

3. On another VC10, the 'lift rate modifier' which changes the stall protection AoA value with flap/slat configuration hadn't been connected for some years. The cables were neatly tucked behind the aircraft panelling.

4. On that same aircraft, the stall dump lever was inoperative - because a vital pin from the linkage was missing. And had been for many years, as the surface condition of the hole through which the pin should have been fitted bore witness.

This placed rather a lot of doubt on the quality of rebuild carried out prior to delivery to the RAF. As did the fact that the engineers found an ex-BOAC silver teaspoon in the bowels of the aircraft! It had flown with BOAC, then been sold to Gulf Air, then rebuilt as a VC10K2 and flown for years by the RAF until it was discovered.....

All in all, the stick pusher was a complete waste of time. More trouble than it was worth; with 4 people keeping an eye on the IAS and a reasonable stall warning system, the wretched stick pusher and klaxon system was completely unnecessary.

[VP8]

I was at Southend on Tuesday morning and it was still sat on the other side still minus 1 engine looking forlorn
VEEPS

[Porrohman]

commercial confidentiality agreements are signed and an agreed press announcement is ready for release


I can't see why HeavyLift Oz would need all this secrecy and a press announcement for a cargo plane returning to service so I wonder if EuroProp are considering using it as a test bed for the TP400 rather than the C130 that was mentioned in a previous press release. It might explain why there are currently only 3 props on the Belfast and also why the innards had allegedly been rewired. The lack of activity on the Belfast in the last year also ties in with the TP400 programme slip. Or maybe this is all just co-incidence...

Porrohman

[Splash Down]

The aircraft is still owned by the Ozzie (No not Osbourne!) the aviation press will soon be reciving details about the aircrafts future use.

[Porrohman]

Any news yet? Has there been any work carried out on the Belfast recently?

[HZ123]

Yes it has had another propeller removed, not exactly a positive action.

[Porrohman]

I wonder if the Australian Air Force's acquisition of C17s removed the need for Heavylift Australia to get the second Belfast and the CL44 at Bournmouth airworthy again?

[Waldo.P]

commercial confidentiality agreements are signed and an agreed press announcement is ready for release

where is the press release? It all seems very secretive? just like the cl44 thread.
I hope the future is not saucepans for either of these fine old props!:sad:

[Porrohman]

I believe that Heavylift will be surveying G-BEPS and the CL-44-o that's currently at Bournmouth before the end of March after which a decision will be made about their respective futures. I hope there's a positive outcome.

[Porrohman]

Accoring to a post in the Freight Dogs forum two more props are about to be fitted to the Belfast (See CL-44/ Swingtail thread);

Understand the Reps are at the 2nd Belfast with 2 more bits and pieces that go round and round with props bolted to them . That will make 4 ?:D

If any Southend locals notice any progress and/or can post photos that would be great.
Thanks
Porrohman

(I've also posted this message to the Southend thread)

[HZ123]

I was lucky enough to have a look around the exterior about 6 weeks ago. I am no an engineer but have been in the industry for 39 years as well as 2 props 1 engine missing the exterior has a lot of bits missing and looks coroded but that might be years of accumulated much. You may like to join Yahoo groups Southend Spotters site as those guys usually know what is happening in advance. Either way lets hope it does fly again. I have happy memories of the Belfast and was a copper at STN when the CL 44 & the Guppy were very active. I recall one CL44 that sat on the derelict area weighed down with rubble being repaired and going back into service round about 72.

[Waldo.P]

There appears to have been some activity around the aircraft the last couple of days. Lets hope it is a positive sign.

[Porrohman]

The Belfast has been the subject of many jokes over the years, especially during its RAF career where they referred to is as the Belslow due to its lack of speed. The RR Tynes were rated at 5,730ehp in the Belfast but versions of the Tyne used for marine applications produced up to 9,700shp. Why didn't they upgrade the power output of the Tyne in the Belfast? Was it a case that they couldn't produce a small, light and reliable reduction gearbox to transmit any additional power to the propeller? I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was an area of mechanical engineering that the USSR mastered (the Tu95's Kuznetsov NK-12MV turboprops produced 14,800shp each) but which the UK and USA didn't.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote by Porrohman
The Belfast has been the subject of many jokes over the years, especially during its RAF career where they referred to is as the Belslow due to its lack of speed. The RR Tynes were rated at 5,730ehp in the Belfast but versions of the Tyne used for marine applications produced up to 9,700shp. Why didn't they upgrade the power output of the Tyne in the Belfast? Was it a case that they couldn't produce a small, light and reliable reduction gearbox to transmit any additional power to the propeller? I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was an area of mechanical engineering that the USSR mastered (the Tu95's Kuznetsov NK-12MV turboprops produced 14,800shp each) but which the UK and USA didn't.
If your 9,700hp naval Tyne gives up, you get a tug to tow you back to port. I can't imagine a glider tug capable of rescuing a Belfast glider:eek: The Americans had similar problems with the C-133 I think I recall. Seriously the weight of the mountings and ancillaries in a Naval application preclude aeronautical implementation. I think I read somewhere that the TBO on the AN-22 transmission was about 600 hours max.( VEEPS can you help here ?) Can't see the TU-95 being vastly different. Down time and cost were not major factors in the Soviet Union equations of the time.
Perhaps one of our erudite engineering artisans could help out a bit here?
Hope it helps
Be lucky

[Chille Con Carnie]

Activity again round the belfast today, platforms No,s 1 engine / air bottles i think.
Could be going to try and move her shortly?

[Jamie-Southend]

Saw a few Reds over that way at around 15.30 - not sure what all that was about ?

"Reds" being fire trucks and not a couple of stray Hawks.

[GuppyEng.com]

The fire section were just having a practise.
Still lots of activity around the old girl.

[411A]

..Americans had similar problems with the C-133 I think I recall.

Oh yes indeed.
The engines on the C-133 would twist themselves right off the wing, on occasion.

[JW411]

One of my Belfast instructors did an exchange tour with the USAF on C-133s. He told me that the P&W engines fitted to the C-133 drove all-electric props and that a particularly obscure electrical fault could cause all four propellers to feather at once. Thus it was that one of them ended up ditching in the Pacific a little bit short of Japan. (At least one other disappeared without trace).

The Belfast caused a deal of interest in the USA and often we were asked by ATC "What exactly IS an SH5?" An answer sometimes given was that "It's a bit like your C-133 only our one works!"

[Red Four]

Plan is for a wash on Friday, think it will be towed to the southside of the airport for this.

[JW411]

For the serious Belfast lovers among you, I heard yesterday that Molly White has passed away. Molly was a great Belfast afficianado and wrote a book about the Belfast. I am lucky enough to have a copy.

She lived near Brize Norton (Burford?) and I met her on several occasions when I was on 53 Squadron. She was a nice lady.

[plinkplanky]

That is sad news. I was given an excerpt detailing the ten from her book by Heavylift when I enquired about the reg's of the two by the railway line. Tried for years to get a copy of the book, now thanks to ebay I have one. A fascinating read!

[Porrohman]

Has anyone from Southend noticed further progress with the Belfast since it had its wash. I take it that it now has 4 engines and 4 props fitted? Have any engine runs been carried out yet?

I hope it won't be long before we need to move this thread from the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum to the Freight Dogs forum.

[Red Four]

Still only two props fitted (on the starboard side). There appear to be about 5 engines lying on the tarmac in the immediate vicinity.

[Heavy Cargo]

Was told by rep US FAA (DAR) has finished the inspection after the wash all is ok and it is progressing. The other two engines / props and new wheels and brakes will be installed in the next three weeks. It will show up on freight dogs.

For info HeavyLift just bought OZJET ( 4 x B737-200 pax ) from European here in Australia ?
HVY now has 2 x 727-200Fs, 2 x B727-100Fs, 1 x ( soon 2 ) Belfast and 4 x B737-200pax . :D

[Steve Bond]

I am saddened to hear about Molly White. I too knew her well when I was at Brize, and she was a great help when I was putting the station history together.

[Stratofreighter]

Molly O'Loughlin White:

Also see
http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/obituaries/obits/display.var.2237602.0.molly_white.php

http://www.lastingtribute.co.uk/tribute/white/2812583

[HZ123]

Never heard of her but what a fasinating person from that brief account. Sadly as people of this style and purpose depart they are not to easily replicated. RIP

[Porrohman]

On 3rd May, Heavy Cargo said;

Was told by rep US FAA (DAR) has finished the inspection after the wash all is ok and it is progressing. The other two engines / props and new wheels and brakes will be installed in the next three weeks. It will show up on freight dogs.

Has any more progress been made?

[Porrohman]

According to the following post in the Freight Dogs forum, the CL44 association has been "empowered to seek and secure a future for the unique Conroy Guppy (C/N 16)" and has "a similar role with regard to the Shorts Belfast at Southend."

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4190719&postcount=363

Unless I'm misinterpreting, it sounds like both the Belfast and the Guppy are to become museum pieces if a suitable home(s) can be found.

I wonder why efforts to get the Belfast back into service were abandoned. Things were sounding quite positive a couple of months ago.

[Heavy Cargo]

Belfast being parts for Belfast in OZ. Crew/ Tech support and spares an issue.
RP-C8020 ( G-HLFT ) is moving Blackhawks to/from East Timor. Many years of ops remaining.

[ARCHIE1]

Just to drift away from Southend for a moment, I noticed RP-C8020 at Cairns yesterday, Friday 27 June. She was tucked right in amongst a couple of 727s and smaller fry. Is that the normal off-duty configuration or is she laid up longer term?

[Porrohman]

Just to drift away from Southend for a moment, I noticed RP-C8020 at Cairns yesterday, Friday 27 June. She was tucked right in amongst a couple of 727s and smaller fry. Is that the normal off-duty configuration or is she laid up longer term?

Not laid up. Was seen in Malta a few days ago delivering/collecting helicopters for Bristow. See this thread elsewhere on PPRuNe; http://www.pprune.org/forums/freight-dogs/337833-heavylift-cargo-belfast-rp-c8020-malta.html

[N707ZS]

I here the scrap man has arrived at Southend and the Belfast will be gone by the end of the month.

[Stratofreighter]

Indeed... :sad::(

From a Southend-insider:

Thursday, 14 August, 2008, 12:20 AM

As off today, no actual scrapping has occurred but will do soon.
They will remove any spares they need and also the engines before scrapping commences.
Sad but true.

[Porrohman]

Has it been scrapped yet? Or will Marshalls come along and fit some TP400s to it? It seems the Herc testbed for the TP400 might not be as suitable as was thought; Testbed Problems Add To A400M Delay: AINonline (http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/testbed-problems-add-to-a400m-delay/)

[GiveMeABreak]

She was still in one piece this evening. Two starboard props still in place, no sign of active scrapping yet, but there is plant around the aircraft.

[Heavy Cargo]

Engines coming out now cutting up next week.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Oh dear, The end of the Belfast then.

I bet the 'scrappers' are living it.:hmm::=

[Porrohman]

What a sad end. Thanks for keeping us informed Heavy Cargo, even if the news is not what many of us wanted to hear. I'd have preferred the sound of 4 Tynes to the sound of the scrappers saws. :(

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Ill 2nd that:ok:

On a similar subject - a mate of mine offered the owner of the Blackpool Vulcan 9,000 in cash for the Airfarme, What was left of it.

He wasn't tempted and about 8 months later it ended up in a Cheshire scrapyard.:=

It is beyond belief, And when the mate of mine found out he went just a bit mad!:mad:

The Vulc would have had a better home than a scrap one.:=

[Heavy Cargo]

Heard the UK boys running up the Belfast here today for another charter. RP-C8020 ( G-HLFT ) lives on in great shape and new paint scheme Google the rego RP-C8020 and see.

[Chille Con Carnie]

Sorry to say No.4 Prop and last removed today.

[JEM60]

Sorry. I could understand all the grief if it was the only one in existence, but there is one not a million miles away from Southend, at Cosford, and there is one flying.
To say it is beyond belief that it is being scrapped is over the top. If so worried about, then form a Belfast to the Sky Campaign!! It costs money to keep large aircraft on the ground, and to transport it elsewhere would involve ridiculous costs. Perhaps BYAINDIA's friend should go and offer them some money to stop, or does he just expect owners to go along with enthusiasts wishes at their own expense!!!!

[Porrohman]

JEM60 - I think you misunderstood BYALPHAINDIA's post - his comment relates to a rejected offer his friend made for the Vulcan that was at Blackpool.

In relation to the Belfast, you're right, there are two others. It's just sad that the one at Southend is being scrapped, allegedly (according to Heavy Cargo) because the log books have been stolen. HeavyLift Oz appear to have spent a lot of time and effort trying to get it back into service.

[JEM60]

Yes, your'e right Porrohman. Apologies all round. Was a bit too early in the morning for me, I guess. Cheers.:uhoh:

[GuppyEng.com]

The Aircraft was noted today with all the props, engines and main gears removed and rumour has it the scrapman will be starting this week!

[panjandrum]

It is looking rather lop-sided this evening, the end is nigh.

[Chille Con Carnie]

Having seen some pic,s of her back in April i think on stand 6 being washed,& today pic,s show both wing,s cut either side of nacelles 2/3 outer sections on floor, sad to see the end of a lovely old girl.
Long live the Belfast.