Air Canada RP vs 340 / 767 FO pay [Archive]

ChicoChico

15th Oct 2006, 15:21

AC pay

In a nutshell the RP pay for all aircraft types (including 777) is a blended rate. The EMJ F/O's also earn this rate. It is called "position group".

If you are assigned A340 RP or EMJ FO your pay will be the same with yearly increments that go up to 80 or 90G/annum after 7 or 8 years.

The only way to escape the PG is to bid and be awarded a position that is not an RP or EMJ FO i.e. A320 FO or B767 FO.

Hope this helps!

Chico

Lost in Saigon

17th Oct 2006, 18:59

There actually is hourly rates for B767, B787, A340, and B777 Relief Pilots.
Here are the 4th year rates.

............ day........night
B767.......75.43.....83.62
B787.......78.61.....87.51
A340.......83.33.....92.17
B777.......88.31.....97.15

This is what the company pays out. But, before you see your money, it is lumped in with all the other "PG" pilots and then you all get a share of the pot. This is what Position Group is all about. Take your money and share it with the less fortunate ones. (RJ or EMJ First officers)

Non PG pilots (hired prior to 1999?) are excempt from this socialist scheme and get to keep their money for themselves.

When you bid to a higher position outside of PG, you will also get to keep your money. But if you decide for any reason to bid down to RP at any time in the future, you will once again have to share your money in the Position Group.

eg. 8th year 777 RP pays 101.66 (day) and 111.45 (night). But you would only get about 90.00

meaw

17th Oct 2006, 19:06

Last few courses have been for EMJ FO in YYZ and YUL as well as RP 767 in YYZ (and I believe a few in YVR).Earlier this summer a few new-hires got 340RP.

flyboy519

18th Oct 2006, 08:06

Thanks for the info guys. Presently 777FO but the desert is not what its cracked up to be. Looking forward to the possibility of getting home.

Lost in Saigon

18th Oct 2006, 12:31

I have been hearing that about the "desert" lately. Not long ago one Air Canada pilot quit to go to Emerites. He spent some time over there, and then quit Emerites and got re-hired at Air canada. He lost about 600 numbers in doing so.

flyboy519

18th Oct 2006, 14:43

yeah ... but I bet hes thanking his lucky stars he got back to AC. EK is not the be all and end all of airline jobs. Think very carefully before coming here.

Heres hoping Im out soon

FB519

Lost in Saigon

18th Oct 2006, 15:41

Hey FB519, why don't you check out B777 FO contract flying. Contact Parc Aviation.

I heard a story (joke maybe), that EK called up Parc loking for B777 drivers. Parc said sure, we have lots on file looking for contract work, but they already work for EK. :)

I think Parc pays at least $8,000 USD per month for a Vietnam Airlines B777 FO. They only take you if you have min 500 hours on type and current in the last 6 months. Work 6 weeks on, and 2 weeks off. For your 2 weeks off they will fly you POS J to Frankfurt, Paris, or anywhere in their route structure.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/Img_0163crop.jpg

The company, the country, and the people are all great. Probably the best Asian airline to work for other than Cathay or Dragon.

CanadaKid

18th Oct 2006, 17:57

Dominus vobiscum

20th Oct 2006, 05:25

Refreshing post CK, you are correct in many respects. AC has changed dramatically and the hiring process now shows it at it's best ( pathetic science closer to voodoo than HR procedures!!!)

But I have to say that it is rather easy to say for you since your position seems rather 'comfortable'. You left with $$$ in the bank and a full pension plan after 25 years, a captain seat with experience etc etc...You know you will spend only a few years at EK so yes life is good and I can't blame you. BUT I can also understand that people less fortunate than you might want to work in Canada and have a normal life....As my name implies, I am from an older generation ( latin courses:eek: ) but I try to put myself in someonelse's shoes and it's not an easy industry to be in . I wish AC pilots would stop looking at themself and their seniority number and start enjoy flying and the conditions they have. Meanwhile CK enjoy the rest of Ramadan. Inshala

bahongkeps69

20th Oct 2006, 18:25

lost in saigon,

any idea how much an a320 captain gets in vietnam airlines? tnx

bahongkeps69

Lost in Saigon

22nd Oct 2006, 01:34

It is about $9,000 USD per month.

brucelee

22nd Oct 2006, 02:23

I must say all these expats have to justify their expat move. Since when did a starting salary ever have anything to do with the long term goal? Since when has leaving the country ever made any sense to 90% of canadian pilots who have families? You guys can say you are treated great all you want but the reality is the best place back home is hiring now. Our union has just told us they have reached an agreement with the company regarding the 320 pilot shoratge which will no doubt get rid of the position group or at least allow new hires to make the six figure income alot sooner (2-3 years) so all in all the gig gets better. Happy to hear you're happy in the sand. Just don't tell me you miss home. Sooner or later you all want to come home. No pitty on you boys.

Dominus vobiscum

22nd Oct 2006, 05:29

:= Dear Mr Bruce....I wish life would be so simple..At least it seems simple to you. I see that you are a Happy chap at AC, good on you mate.

It is certainly a good place to work but what would you have done if AC would have said no to you ? Or your timing would would have been out of luck during a period when there was no jobs ?

Everyone is trying to survive in this industry and make the best of it, there's no good or bad answers, there's only your answer. During a certain period , not so long ago, when AC filled for chap 11....A lot of you little fellow ended up going all around the world to find work....You did exactly what many other guys and girls are doing....Fortunatly, your company survived and you kept your job. One would have tought that it was a lesson to remember...How quickly human brain forget.:\

Humbleness comes with effort and sacrifices....So please respect those who took a different path and remind yourself how lucky you are to be where you are but the sun doesn't only shine in Canada....

Fly safe Mr Bruce:ok:

brucelee

22nd Oct 2006, 16:04

Dominus.
I have much respect for anyone who can put food on the table no matter where they are or how they do it. My comments were directed at the many expats who tell us how bad it is here at home and how wonderful they have it out of the country. Your comments regarding humbleness should be directed at them. Frankly I'm getting a little tired of hearing how bad things are at home. They are far from perfect, but even farther from bad.

flyboy519

22nd Oct 2006, 18:20

Well said Brucelee

Unfortunately, it took a year in the desert for me to figure that out.

Hope to change that situation real soon

fb519

NO_JOY

23rd Oct 2006, 08:00

Not one of my friends with any real experience has been hired by Air Canada. They can't all just be bad at interviews. I just turned down an interview, as have others I know, can't be bothered to die their skin, grow breasts, or shave 3000 hrs out of their logbook. Lately they've been getting a lot of guys hopes up, just to send them a PFO...

Personally, I think their hiring is messed up. And , by the way, there is many ways to have a great Canadian flying lifestyle, without working for AC. Its great for the guys that are happy there. And that pay group does need fixing. ACPA.

Saltaire

23rd Oct 2006, 13:01

Hey Bruce,

Wait to see what they have planned with your pension in '09. You're likely just another younger employee justifying your own circumstances. AC is still a great job, but there are other great opportunities such as CX and EK. No real tax, better lifestyle, better route network, more appealing layovers, far better cabin crew, no union bs, and the list goes on...

To each his own, I'd say...

:ok:

brucelee

23rd Oct 2006, 13:40

Salt.
Yep. To each his own.

CanAV8R

23rd Oct 2006, 16:32

Having spoken to numerous mates in the last 6 months of which some got in and some did not the general feeling is this. The hiring process at AC is a mess. There is little or no reason to the process by all accounts.

The starting pay is very poor as many take a 50% pay cut for the first two years. For many this could be a big problem, especially those with young families and large mortgages. After the two year period the pay gets much better but a six figure salary (barely) in Canada these days is really nothing too exciting. Cost of living in YYZ and YVR is outrageous meaning commuting is the sensible option, especially for newbies
.
AC, best job in Canada? Probably but compare it world wide its not. Bruce you seem to get a bee in your bonnet when people try and explain or comment on moving over seas for work. The point of why people do this has been raised already. AC/WJ do not hire 500-1000 pilots a year, year in and year out so people must look abroad. The demise of Canadian and C3 sent a clear message to me about 5 years ago that it was time to start looking elswhere.

I have a better lifestyle, higher pay, a more stable environment and overall better career prospects than any mates back home, including those who have joined AC. There are quite a few Canadian boys with me and I can tell you, not one would leave the carrier (UK flag) to join AC. Some commute from TO but say its worth it.

People make choices for various reasons. AC aint the be all an end all but its a good gig, if you can get in. If its $$$ you want or better career prospects then going abroad is the best option.

brucelee

23rd Oct 2006, 19:17

No bee in my bonnet. Let me try this again as there seems to be an english comprehension problem: People have to do whatever it takes to earn a living. Sometimes that means moving out of the country. Do whatever it takes but don't compare how good you have it or how bad it is back home. There are pros and cons to most carreer decisions. I keep hearing about the regrets of leaving Canada and how the salaries aren't what they use to be abroad (starting salary aside). I also know there are many success stories that would not have taken place here at home. Like I said, everyone has to justify their decision and if they can't, it was probably the wrong one to make. Happy trails.

readytocopy

23rd Oct 2006, 22:52

I worked at AC for 25+ years, and have joined EK.
My wife works here, and we quite enjoy our new life. Circumstances make the difference, of course, but the future at AC seemed all downhill to me.
During my 30 years in aviation I've never been treated as well, as I have at EK. Air Canada has some great pilots working with a management that doesn't understand aviation.
I wish the lifers well, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to start a career there.
cheers, CK
I have been at EK for 2 yrs...while I enjoy my life professionally, I can tell you that everything here is a chore. I agree, I have reached the top of my career but those of you who say that they can't imagine wanting to start a career there (AC or in Canada), then imagine spending the next 25 yrs in the desert. I cannot and I am working on it. For those of you that are enjoying life here in the dessert, well thats good, but you are enjoying life because you spent the majority of your life at home, watching your kids grow up in a civilized country and you had a wonderful career..so spending the last 5-7yrs as a Captain here is great...to make that extra cash and top up the pension.
It is all a matter of perspective. There is more to life than flying a shiny Airbus or Boeing and a matter of fact paying taxes seems OK now. While we make good money here in the sandpit..having kids, all the money goes....as well with the high inflation the money is good for day to day living. Is it worth it. I don't think so.

North of You

23rd Oct 2006, 23:05

Dumb question of the day: EK is which airline?:ouch:

future captain

23rd Oct 2006, 23:45

Dumb question of the day: EK is which airline?:ouch:

Emirates :ok:

KingAir

24th Oct 2006, 16:02

brucelee

25th Oct 2006, 23:51

NO_JOY

26th Oct 2006, 16:20

Kingair.
A recent letter from ACPA indicated that they have reached an agreement with the company on the 320 shortage which affects the position group. Because they are still working on the "wording" they could not release the details but I suspect it will be good news for new hires and those in the group.

Position group. New Hires. Sure, but they've scared or rejected most of the talent away. Who's in the left seat in a Boston snowstorm in a year or so? Not me. Couldn't be bothered. I hope the jungle jet flys like a King Air, for everyone's sake...Or we're going to need to paint over the Maple Leaf in white again.

ACPA needs to get involved. Brucelee? Unless you're a training captain, piss off.

brucelee

26th Oct 2006, 16:52

No Joy.
You have picked the right name for yourself it would appear. AC hasn't scared anybody away. The resume pile is still the largest in Canada. People are exstatic when they get hired here. The people who occupy the left seat of an AC airplane are put through some of the most gruling training and evaluation in this industry, anywhere. I don't know what your problem is nor do I care but you sure seem to have an issue with something you don't seem to know much about. Educate yourself or as you put it, piss off (asshole).

flyr4hire

27th Oct 2006, 00:24

NO_JOY

27th Oct 2006, 06:08

Hey No Joy, is the Far East the only place you could land a job? You are living proof that AC's hiring board are doing a good job of weeding idiots like you out of our country and our airplanes. Oh and by the way, before you rattle on and on about how good it is on the other side, save yourself some time. Been there done that. I'm glad to be in my home country by a long shot. It's not always greener on the other side. Happy landings. ( If you can ):rolleyes:
Weeding out idiots like me??? You guys hired a pilatus copilot from winnipeg...I was flying jets while you were still in school. The only place that wants hire jet drivers is Jazz and westjet. Peace out, hacks.

NO_JOY

27th Oct 2006, 06:15

Oh, and I never rattle on about how good i have it, I've also been there, done that. I love my job, but thats irrelevant, I just took a minute to explain your hiring sucks. I have lots of friends at AC, awesome guys, they do a great job. And they agree with me about the hiring! I know a training guy who agrees with me. So everyone do something about. I don't want a job, but my buddy's did, and AC told them to piss off. Your loss.

777300ER

27th Oct 2006, 06:37

Well said NJ! I have not looked back since leaving Canada. The guys spouting off in this forum (like brucelee) are probably guys that got hired at AC from a Navajo job. They are so immature that they still think this is all some sort of competition. Funny thing is, if it was a competition, they would be pummeled.

Oh and BTW: brucelee, you will make one hell of an AC pilot. You fit the stereotype to a tee.

Tripler

flyr4hire

27th Oct 2006, 13:28

Weeding out idiots like me??? You guys hired a pilatus copilot from winnipeg...I was flying jets while you were still in school. The only place that wants hire jet drivers is Jazz and westjet. Peace out, hacks.

Why make a reference to what type of a/c one fly's prior to joining AC? Does it really matter? The AB-Intio programs have been running in Europe for many years. Pilots from zero experience are put into state of the art airliners, and are managing well. By reading into your comments, re: "Who will be in the left seat of an AC a/c in BOS on a snowy day?" and "a Pilatus co-pilot from YWG" infers that this folks are not qualified to be there, and in that case, most airlines around the world are employing under-qualified pilots. My experience in Europe was a pleasnat one, but the level of professionalism i found in some parts of the world surely left lots to be desired. I too know of a couple of guys from Toronto who sit happily in a left seat of a 777. The biggest a/c flown prior to that was a Metroliner.

"The guys spouting off in this forum (like brucelee) are probably guys that got hired at AC from a Navajo job. They are so immature that they still think this is all some sort of competition. Funny thing is, if it was a competition, they would be pummeled.

Oh and BTW: brucelee, you will make one hell of an AC pilot. You fit the stereotype to a tee."

Tripler

Tripler...........you are probably one of those i just mentioned above. You feel a need to **** on others who have chosen to stay in their country while you bask in the sun on your triple 7. Immature, competition, pummeled? You have been looking in the mirror recently then. Now piss off to Abu Babu Cabu or where ever the hell you are going next and leave the real flying for the rest of us.

777300ER

27th Oct 2006, 13:49

Tripler...........you are probably one of those i just mentioned above. You feel a need to **** on others who have chosen to stay in their country while you bask in the sun on your triple 7. Immature, competition, pummeled? You have been looking in the mirror recently then. Now piss off to Abu Babu Cabu or where ever the hell you are going next and leave the real flying for the rest of us.
fly4hire,

For starters, I never said I had a problem with ab-initio pilots making their ways into the airline ranks. In fact, the airline I work for has several pilots in command that started as ab-initio. What I do have a problem with however is morons like you spouting off on public forums about how good they are because they were hired by AC. It's a waste of time. The thing that you don't understand due to your obvious immaturity in the industry is that most of us end up where we are not due to choice, but due to timing and circumstance. Don't kid yourself. If I was offered a job at AC 8 years ago when I was flying a PA31 I would have pounced at the chance. Unlucky for me, that was not the way things worked out. After 4 consecutive furloughs from Canadian carriers it became clear to me that perhaps the grass might be greener elsewhere. And it was! I could not be happier where I am. At the end of the day, we all want to end up at an airline that will provide for us all the way through to our retirement. For your sake I hope you got on at the beginning of this hiring boom or you may just end up sitting in my right seat on my way into Abu Babu Cabu. Don't fret though, when you factor in the money, coupled with the adventure of seeing some place other than YEG, YWG, YHZ, YUL, YYZ, you may just like the view!

Tripler

NO_JOY

27th Oct 2006, 14:05

This is ridiculous...You think your hiring is good? Or did you miss the point entirely?

Do you guys even do PPC's anymore? How scripted are they? "Train to Standard"....

Maybe thats why you don't need experience in an airline with left seat opportunitites on fairly squirrely aircraft.

Do you even need an ATPL to fly that thing? Does a CPL suffice?

Little too defensive if you ask me. You should ask some of the AC pilots that have come to my airline, by choice, how they compare the training...We can handle the ab initio task.

Good luck with everything. I wasn't criticizing you guys, just pointing out the short-sightedness of your airline's hiring. My airline isn't perfect, it just happens to kick the $hit out of yours in a few areas.

But after getting to know you all a little more, I'll get personal.

Kenuck

27th Oct 2006, 14:12

Why is is that whenever the issue of AC recruitment comes up the forum, inevitably, descends into an insult-hurling match? I guess we all have to employ a bit more tolerance and restraint. It seems that everyone has their own path to follow.

I have a very close friend flying the left seat at Georgian who would be the ideal candidate to join AC - he got a PFO letter.

I, on the other hand, left Canada 5 years ago with my wife seeing that there was very little going then. I now fly the right seat of the 777 here in East Africa and have just got my upgrade to the left seat of the 737NG scheduled for 6 months time. I'm earning fairly decent $$$ (much better than AC) and my wife (a born and bred WASP Canadian) has a great job and loves it here. We have a great lifestyle and are not looking back at all. Does that make us bad people for saying that things, for us, are much better here than if we had stayed in Canada? :confused:

Come on folks, lighten up.......:ok:

Dominus vobiscum

27th Oct 2006, 16:58

Why is is that whenever the issue of AC recruitment comes up the forum, inevitably, descends into an insult-hurling match?/QUOTE]KQGuy

It all comes down to integrity...The hiring process has been anything but that for years...It is normal that people get a bit edgy.....When you advertise for a certain profile ( University degree, EFIS, FMS, JET etc ) and you endup hiring the complete opposite, it's not correct. A company has the right to hire who ever they want with what ever requirements but don't ask for profile if you're not going to respect it....Also the process is complety obscure and not transparent. When you have candidates that are waiting 2-3-4 or even 5 months for an answer, how can you justify that in today's world ?:rolleyes: Cathay, Emirates, BA to name a few, give you an answer in the next few days or weeks max. The candidate can resume to search for something else or accept the offer. Again honnesty and integrity. Let's move on guys and stop insulting each other, there's no need for that, enjoy the flying where ever you might be and be satisfied with what you've got....Safe flying everyone

GearDoor

27th Oct 2006, 20:05

Job Requirements

To fly for Air Canada, pilots must meet certain basic requirements:

*1000 hours of fixed wing flying time
*Completion of schooling to the university entrance level. Ability to pass the Air Canada and Transport Canada medical and visual acuity requirements for a Category 1 medical certificate.
*Canadian Commercial Pilot licence, current Instrument Rating and Multi-Engine endorsement.
*Canadian citizenship or landed immigrant status.

Where does it say that University, EFIS, jet and FMS are mandatory?

If you were going to hire a CEO for a coal mining company, would you hire someone with an MBA in business, or would you hire the person who has worked in the coal industry for 15 years as say a new hire mining engineer, promoted to foreman, to superintendent and VP of operations, in addition to having an MBA? I'm sure the same applies to Air Canada. However, having said that, AC is entitled to hire whomever they wish.

I think what most people are missing is that maybe Air Canada is trying to hire good employees, not necessarily good pilots. There is a difference, although these qualities are not mutually exclusive. I know someone who was interviewed at Air Canada and Westjet. She didn't get the job at AC but was very happy to commence goundschool at Westjet. Talking with her later, she mentioned that everyone in her class was either f**ked over by or knows someone who was f**ked over by Air Canada. If this was the attitude portrayed during their interviews, no wonder they didn't get hired!

I've recently completed the selection process at Air Canada. I'm still waiting for a response. It's been just over five weeks, and it is agonizing. If I don't get picked, I'm not going to be all mad and bitter at AC. I'll still think they are the premier airline in Canada. I've also been to Hong Kong for a Cathay interview, and I don't hold any grudges against them. I just wish AC was as quick as CX in letting me know either way.

Anyway, just something to think about.

flyr4hire

27th Oct 2006, 20:31

"What I do have a problem with however is morons like you spouting off on public forums."
Name slinging is all you are good for Tripler. You are just another disgruntled specimen on the face of this earth. You come shooting your mouth off about AC guys who have flown nothing but Navajos, whereby you too, only 8 short years ago were a tiny Navajo pee-on, but alas today you are the innovation of aviation in a 777. Spare the world the bull****. Nowhere in my posts did i say i was above all others because i work for AC. But i sure am proud of the uniform i wear, it says everything about who i am, Canadian Hey. Obviously common sense and logic wasn't factored in to your interviews, where ever you are. Your types should of ended up on a laboratory shelf in a bottle labelled for experimental use only. Then maybe the rest of us could of benefited from those few tiny energized molecules and free running neutrons that only you posses.:rolleyes:

Dockjock

27th Oct 2006, 21:29

For what it's worth, the average experience level of new hires at AC in the past year has been about 5000 hrs. It sure is easy to focus on the dozen or so (out of 250) that may have had considerably less than that...word sure does get around of course.
In any case on my recent new hire course the experience level ranged from 4000-8000 hrs and was a broad crossection of large turboprop, corporate jet, helo, military, and transport experience.

Golden Flyer

27th Oct 2006, 21:29

Not to thread hijack, but listen: Professional Pilots! I was talking to a professor about flying and this was her opinion and I thought about it:
"Pilot are the most unrecognized group of people. How could they get such a payrate? They take off with this machine 40 000 ft. in the sky possibly having 400 people lives in their hands". Regardless if you guys like it or not, you're all in the same boat fighting the same fight. One gets on a better machine with a better payrate and still doesnt get the amount that he should be getting. The guy below him envy him and in return he puts the guy below him down? Still the same fight! Just want to get a point across, you guys continue... do what you wanna do... (Immediately after this gets posted, someone is gonna give me hell... go ahead)

brucelee

28th Oct 2006, 02:40

777300ER

28th Oct 2006, 04:43

777300.
Another dick who doesn't know squat about what he's talking about. No I didn't get hired at AC from a navajo. You are one of those idiots who have a huge problem with reality, especially when it comes to AC. Talk about stereotype, have a look at what you call yourselfe. A little bit into yourelfe I'd say. Come down from that monkey tree and face it, you ****** up in Canada and now you're happy to be singing Allah is great!!!

brucelee and fly4hire,

The tone of your posts just confirms my theory. You'll notice that I did not once say that your decision to join AC was a bad move. In fact I said quite the opposite. Furthermore I have not once said that staying in Canada is wrong. You two kids on the other hand have been quick to point out that I must be some twisted Canadian washout because of the fact that I left Canada. This is the exact behavior that makes you an embarrassment to your colleagues that actually "get it". Then you wonder why people might think you came off a PA31. You didn't listen to a damn word I said did you? Who are really the insecure ones here?

Tripler

readytocopy

28th Oct 2006, 06:09

Hey guys why don't we stop all the insults.

Enjoy your jobs; most of all enjoy your family and your life; make friends and to all of you fly safe.

Dominus vobiscum

28th Oct 2006, 07:33

You red my mind readytocopy.....Bruce my son, with your ''level'' of experience acquire from AC you should know better when to draw the line...Don't start getting Allah involve in this thread because you're walking on thin f**** ice := .
One of the main experience in working overseas is to open your mind and horizon on many aspect of life, flying included. It seems from reading some of the comments that it's not for everyone to be able to do the exercise ! I am sure AC is as good as someone wants it to be...It's all up to the individual, so is overseas flying. I will admite it's not always easy but at the end of the day, we only live once so why not discover other civilizations nations, country, animals etc. Anyway for those of you who applied, best of luck and remember if you're accepted....Don't change after 6 months and stay yourself ...And if doesn't work, well tough luck, there's a world out there to discover so think outside the box and find what's best for you and your familly......

P.S. To reply to Geardoors :You are correct those are the minimums advertise but I was refering to the point system ....iF you have a degree it gives that many points, military flying ...points and so on..Anyway that's how it was for a while maybe it changed....Anyway good luck to you and fly safe ...Sincerely D.V

NO_JOY

28th Oct 2006, 12:23

Brucelee: (Flyer4hire)

I've read this thread from the beginning, and your original rant on pilots working for carriers that aren't Canadian is uncalled for.The only one I hear justifying his career choice is you. Why so threatened? Some guy left AC after 25 years, big deal. So that struck a nerve...pathetic. Good for him. I'm sure he had legitimate reasons to say AC conditions have deteriorated.

I'll tell you what I'm sick of: guys like you (hopefully a real minority in your peer group) justifying how great it is to be you. As in, whatever you're doing is the way to go. Thats the impression you leave.

And I stand by my original point: your hiring is screwed up. Argue that point till you're blue in the face...I don't care. Before they started laying off, it was better. The only two guys I know of that were hired with Jet time out of my experience group have brown skin.

I still think AC is a great company. The maple leaf is on the tail, great equipment, great route structure, proud history...Its the flag carrier, so you know the government will always bail it out or co-sign. I say awesome. Does this mimick your narrow-minded view?

Your attacks on on Tripler make you look like an ass, and embarass your peers. Your attacks on my views maybe justified, but you're still a punk who can't recognize a point or make one.

The funny thing is, most of the guys who leave Canada for other opportunities KNOW what its like to be you...But you haven't the faintest clue what it means to live their life for even a day. If it wasn't for Air Canada requiring it, your passport would probably expire.

And there is 747 Captains BASED in Vancouver who don't work for AC, so how can you paint everyone with the same brush? Some guys who work for other airlines have never left Canada, jackass.

Thanks to Tripler and Dominus Vobiscum keeping this discussion somewhat bearable.

Peace Out

CanAV8R

28th Oct 2006, 13:49

I am with No Joy on this one all the way. You will also find if you dig into Bruce's posts, he is hyper aggressive towards his fellow AC employees. This in itself is one of the key reasons people leave Canada. According to mates in AC, the infighting between pilot groups is the single biggest threat to their terms and conditions. In fact they admit that management is riding the hostility all the way to the bank, further dividing the employees. Results?

1) A HR system that lacks any sensibility, especially for a company of its size.

2) A starting salary that is amongst the lowest of legacy carriers worldwide.

3) A work force that is losing its fight with management.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, just look at the facts and try and understand why SOME people choose to leave. AC is still a very good gig but should be compared to the big US outfits, not the highly profitable carriers in Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

I love Canada and do enjoy going home, but I do not miss the BS that goes along with the industry. This thread only proves the point.

At the end of the day we all have it pretty good so lets all be friends.

:D :D :D

c150driver

28th Oct 2006, 13:59

...this is truely why pilots are their own worst enemy and why aviation in Canada is on the decline...."my job is better than your job...blah blah blah"
When someone gets a good job, or a pilot group gets a pay increase, we should ALL be happy because this is how we raise the bar for the rest of us.
There are too many people who celebrate when airline XYZ goes bankrupt, or when so-and-so has to leave canada for a better job, or when Joe-blow gets laid off...
don't you get it...when negative things happen to pilots in Canada it negatively affects all of us...we need to work together as a community to make things better...doesn't matter if we work for competing companies, we are all part of the same "professional" group and we need to start acting like it....
Rant over...:ugh:

flyr4hire

28th Oct 2006, 14:15

NO JOY: read my posts carefully, then enlighten me as to where i come off saying that i am a super natural human being because i work for AC! The hiring may be flawed, as i'm sure it is in your parts of the globe, nobody's perfect, but your posts and those of Tripler attack and undermine the capabilities of the ones who fortunately / unfortunately remained in Canada. I am not defensive, no reason to be. No-one, except myself, can screw things up for me at AC, hence i have no fear of losing anything. I was just like others trying to make it to the majors. Luck or whatever you want to call it, i am blessed to have my dream job, otherwise i would of looked elsewhere, as you have. I don't chastisize some who have made the move. Everyone deserves to make it. However, just take a deep breath and objectively look at your posts and those of Tripler. It sounds like you are trying to justify your move. There should be no reason to. You do what is required to make it, albeit Canada or elsewhere. The name slinging carried in your posts, and your references to "train to standard" - "don't need passports" - "brown skin" -
"Do you guys even do PPC's anymore?" - "Do you even need an ATPL to fly that thing? Does a CPL suffice?" - "Who's in the left seat in a Boston snowstorm" - "You guys hired a pilatus copilot from winnipeg" are uncalled for.
If these statements aren't defensive, then i don't know what is. I never make any mention as to what anybody was / is before taking on their dream job. It doesn't matter. I thought i was clear in my point about AB-INTIO pilots, even there you missed the point. Your rebuttal simply implies that YOU could handle the AB-INITIO over there, but yet you go on to undermine the "Pilatus Co-pilot" from YWG by saying he was hired before yourself. I can't justify what happens in the hiring process. Many of my personal friends, great pilots, great social people, have been PFO'd by AC. They have wonderful careers as we speak. That doesn't make them any less of a pilot. I hope to have cleared up any misconceptions, and for the sake of sanity, put this thread back on track. If not, well, don't expect any more rebuttals on this topic from me. Cheers.

NO_JOY

28th Oct 2006, 14:52

Ha...Good rebuttal!

You got me, I'm not PC. But you don't have to be PC to get your point accross.

I still don't want a job there
I still think its a great airline
I still think the hiring sucks
I still stand by my friends who were PFO'd

I still think Brucelee is a punk.

You're starting make sense though. Good post.

brucelee

28th Oct 2006, 15:03

Fly4hire.
Hey man, you forgot their Navajo insult. Seriously though, I can't believe some of the nonsense I've read on this forum. Most of it a result of ignorance about the real life at the companies we all work for. Dominus my man, I have lived overseas, my culture is not confined to being a canuk. We all have our reasons for being where we are but I'm not about to take stupidity lying down. I'll direct it right back at you and that's why some of my writing sounds harsh. Most of the stuff written about AC is usually inaccurate and unfortunately sometimes just simply confontational. The blurb by Can8vr proves to me how some are out in left field, clueless. Sure let's compare AC to the US companies who are losing money or in bankruptcy. I do agree that AC has a long way to go before being a world class airline, perhaps never will be. But the point which started me going is the one I'm still making in the end which is it's fine to go where ever you want to go or have to go to make a living.Just spare us the ego on how good you have it and how bad we have it at home. AC's hiring practices are far from perfect. I agree we are not always hiring the right people and sometimes even hiring the wrong ones. I've seen this myselfe. But that is only a small part of the picture. I may be making less money, maybe flying crappier equipment but don't underestimate the quality of life we enjoy in the great white north. Then again I'm not telling you something you don't already know. Good riddens!!

CanAV8R

28th Oct 2006, 16:06

Biggest load of back peddling bollocks I have ever heard.

We are talking facts here Brucey and much of it comes from people at AC. People that have been there from a year to 35 plus.

You are the one who got peoples backs up with your aggressive remarks and attitude. Stop making others who work at AC look as dumb as you act and speak.

brucelee

28th Oct 2006, 16:28

Facts? What facts? It's all been opinion and criticism. Backpeddling? Have a look at my threads, I've said the same things all along. You're pathetic Can8. The thread started out innocently with a good question. Next thing you know we're into a "I'm happier here than at AC" oppurtunity, aka AC bashing and all I said was good for you and please note things are good here as well. This thread was hijacked as always, by some unwarranted AC bashing and some ego-inflated me-better-than-you comments which leads to some of us loyal employees having to defend our employer. You seem to have a problem with that. You want to tell the world how good you have it in Europe's most expensive place to live? Great! Why don't you open a thread on the topic? Perhaps it's BA who should watch who they hire.

777300ER

28th Oct 2006, 21:49

I may be making less money, maybe flying crappier equipment but don't underestimate the quality of life we enjoy in the great white north. Then again I'm not telling you something you don't already know.
brucelee,
What do you know about my quality of life? I have lived in your lifestyle for many years. Have you lived mine?
Tripler

brucelee

28th Oct 2006, 22:05

777er.
Hey I didn't start the lifestyle comparison. I only responded to it. You guys don't seem to understand that I don't care about your great lifestyle and I would appreciate it if the on-going comparison could be scrapped or toned down. I think I made this point a few times already but it's not getting through. I have lived overseas, it's great. Many advantages to it. Myselfe and thousands of others are doing pretty good here at home too. AC and WJ as well as others are hiring right now. It's a great oppurtunity for young pilots here at home and for those who want to come home. And best of all our egos don't get overinflated.

CanAV8R

28th Oct 2006, 23:48

Bruce the facts are as follows.

1) The current AC hiring process is disorganized, unpredictable and generally a mess. Ask anyone who has passed or failed.

2) The starting salary at AC is very poor for a legacy carrier. Ask anyone living on it.

3) The infighting between pilot groups is as bitter as ever. Ask anyone who flys at AC and is forced to listen to it.

4) The company is using the conditons mentioned in fact 3 above to shaft the pilot work force. Ask those affected by fact 2 above if they agree.

I bring this up because you jump on anyone who even suggests leaving Canada, or god forbid AC to go abroad. Life aborad has its problems as you suggest and I agree, but I will take the little problems and deal with it. If you have the balls to go abroad in the first place, you can handle the rest.

As for the cost of living abroad well life is life. The pay goes with it. I don't know many starting FO's in Canada that can buy a house that is worth seven digits. You obviously base your facts on assumptions.

I am not going to get in to a pissing match with you or anyone else about this crap because it really is pointless. I felt the same way when I listened to the snickers in the crew room etc as I packed my bags a few years back. You remind me of them.

Do yourself and your fellow AC pilots a favour and spend the energy you use shooting other people down, defending the fort as the company pulls the rug from under your feet. Unity my friend, it goes a long way. Hug a Canadian guy tomorrow and you will feel the weight of the world lift off your shoulders.
:ok::ok: :ok:

readytocopy

29th Oct 2006, 02:09

So anyways...can someone explain what ACE wants to do with Air Canada. The words "spin off Air Canada", I read somewhere. What exactly does that mean. What are the pilots trying to avoid and why? What are the pro's and con's...etc etc

duster1

29th Oct 2006, 15:58

Readytocopy check the link for some background :ok:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249174

Auroradude

29th Oct 2006, 23:46

Hey NO JOY,

I just finished the Air Canada FOM (initial) course. My experience is:

21 years Air Force
7000 hrs
University Degree

There were others with equal experience on my course.

c150driver

30th Oct 2006, 00:19

Dude,
Am I correct in assuming that you have a pretty good pension to back up the low starting wages?

sec 3

30th Oct 2006, 02:23

Sounds like you're ready for the left seat Triple 7. Happy flying:E

NO_JOY

30th Oct 2006, 03:41

Hey NO JOY,

I just finished the Air Canada FOM (initial) course. My experience is:

21 years Air Force
7000 hrs
University Degree

There were others with equal experience on my course.

Thats Awesome. Very glad to hear it. AC has a long history of hiring from the military, and its good to see they still do.

Maybe someone did something about the problem, and woke the hell up. And it still doesn't explain their methods.

There are guys with that time waited years for a call to be denied, through an interview process that is questionable. But I say good for you, sometimes the right people get to the right place.