Instructors, a rare breed indeed!!

[Flyboynick]

I just wanted to canvas the forum on a fact that was worrying me for a while and seems to be getting worse. Two airfields I fly from seem to be in dire straights on the training side due to the lack of instructors. The airlines now seem to have hoovered up the long time instructors and the prospect of shelling out serious money for a CPL and an instructor rating seems to now be hitting hard and killing off the career flying instructor. I presume the multi pilot licence to be introduced will make the situation even worse.
The pre BCPL days of having the required hours and then doing just the flying instructor course seemed to work much better and gave the part timers a chance. I know AOPA were looking at the instructor rating and the need for a CPL, a licence which I believe is totally unecessry if you want to remain an instructor. All the best instructors I have flown with have all been of the pre BCPL variety.
Is the instructor shortage starting to hit elsewhere across the UK and does anybody know any more of the AOPA findings/recommendations?
Nick

[Jinkster]

I sent the East Mids Flying School an email and....

Dear Mr Jinkster,
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Instructor positions.
Unfortunately we have no vacancies at present but will keep your details on file should an appointment become available in the near future.
We thank you for your interest in our School.

Kind regards

******* ******

hmmm....:hmm:

[FlyingForFun]

I know that my previous school had a lot of trouble replacing me when I left. I gather they are now staffed by a number of part-time instructors, who all have other jobs which pay their bills, and instruct for a bit of fun on their days off. Which, it could be argued, makes for some of the best instructors out there, but I know it's not what my previous boss was looking for.

As I see it, apart from increasing the number of part-timers, the only way schools will be able to continue to find instructors if the demand for airline pilost continues to increase is to pay them a sensible wage. Unfortunately, it's difficult to see how this will happen without putting up the prices for the customers.....

It's also worth noting, to Jinkster, that when I was looking for my first instructor job, I applied to over 90 schools, and had quite a few replied like the one you had, and several that didn't reply at all. I did a bit of flying for one school, which didn't work out too well (they told me it was a full-time position, but didn't have any students so I couldn't make any money). Then, after a couple of months, I got two job offers and heard of a position at a third school. I accepted one of the offers and worked there for two very pleasant years. So stick with it, because they might just mean exactly what they said in their letter.

FFF
---------------

[fireflybob]

I think the lack of flying instructor situation will only get worse. Also if the powers that be have their way the MPL (Multi Pilot Licence), which as I understand it will require no flight training in "real" a/c before going onto the jets, is just around the corner.

The writing was on the wall when they got rid of the self improver route. In those days there was always a supply of young keen instructors building their hours prior to moving on to airline work. Also with the increasing commercial pressures none of the the air transport companies will allow their pilots to do the odd bit of instructing to keep their hand in as these hours count towards flight time limitations.

Most of the instructors who are left are getting more geriatric (me included) and when they expire who will take their place?

Mind you the big air transport undertakings want the MPL because this will save them a lot of money and perhaps go a long way to stemming a lack of "suitable" pilots which would limit their commercial plans/expansion. Whether this will be good for safety long term is highly debatable.

Interesting times ahead!

[LEVC]

That is perhaps what is needed for FI's to get a decent salary and perhaps become a career instructor instead of heading for the big companies.

I am glad that this is happening, if you want good FI's you have to give them decent conditions, if not they wont last long, and of course their motivation wont be the best one (remember about this chapter of human factors and the influence of motivation in the subject's performance?).

GA wont die because of lack of FI's, the market laws will rule as they always do, working conditions will improve and there will be people willing to instruct as a career rather than a way of gaining hours, for the time being only few do, i am sure if conditions were better more would do.

I personally do not think the MPL will have a big impact in GA, the people that will go this way were bound to do an integrated course if the MPL thing wasn't invented, and they wouldn't be going to do their basic training in any PPL school.

Most of the guys i worked with followed the self improver path rather than integrated, the MPL without having an agreement with an airline is an economic suicide for somebody who has not been "choosen" by a company, that is why i do not think it will have a big impact on GA.

[Human Factor]

Also, the number of airline pilots who instruct part-time is restricted more than ever by the 900 hours per year rule. Everyone works much harder than in the past so most companies run their pilots up close to the limit.

If we instruct for free, we understandably get slated by those who get paid for it and either way if the school is making money out of us, even if we don't, it still counts towards the 900.

I'd love to instruct more than I do (no more than about 50 hours a year, all at the going rate) but I'm either too knackered on my days off or hitting 900 hours and the day job has to come first as it pays the bills.

[Jinkster]

Myself - I have always wanted to fly a shiny jet (just like most other 20-odd year olds) and also instruct to build hours.....

However with the cost of training the way it is, most people dont have much choice but to go to the airlines and pay of there debts! I for one will definately come back to bash round in a C150 part time if I can (900hr limiting) and instruct, its great fun, easy work and rewarding! :ok:

[Flyboynick]

Jinkster-Check your pms

Cheers

Nick

[shortstripper]

It would be nice if the old PPL instructor system was reintroduced.

PPL's like myself who, for reasons of family, jobs, ect cannot, or do not wish to fly commercially but who would love to instruct and help out. I won't get into the payed/unpaid debate other than to say that nearly all my instructors were PPL's, some payed, some not .... all very good too. I know that in France for instance many instructors are PPL's and many used to here until some bright spark decided they needed a CPL (or at least the paper exams). It says that to instruct an instructor has to demonstrate knowledge to CPL level. In the UK this is interpretted as "pass the ground shool exams" To do this now, you have to do compuslory ground school and then the exams themselves. Who in work or with a family can afford this in time, let alone money? The CAA could easily interpret the wording in a different way and therefore allow someone wanting to instruct to "demonstrate" appropriate knowledge in a different way. This could mean take the CPL exams but skip the compulsory ground school, or perhaps a stand alone exam?

Bring back PPL instructors I say!

SS

[sam34]

ok i have read some comments but i am not fluent in english so maybe i did not understand very well what you said...

So if i understand, pay of instructors in UK is bad...but do you know that in france most of instructors (maybe 90%) are free ?? :( sad truth... because here, the flying club are association.
so most of instructors get a an another job.

and if i understand is there a lack of instructors in UK ?? so is it "easy" to become an instructor in UK ? because I think I will do FI rating...

In France the situation is :

The french CAA (DGAC) will want that most of instructors get just a PPL..not CPL!!
why ?? beacause CPL are paid!! and not PPL !! and the students do not pay an instructor, that is why the prices of hourly rates are more low than in UK...
and the second reason, instructors with a CPL, left flying club when they find an airline job whereas instructors with just PPL stay longer...

so if in UK there is a lack of instructors and plus they are paid, I am quickly doing a FI course!! :}

[Jinkster]

Going to create mayhem......but I must admit I did learn 300 times more bits of information as a CPL than a PPL.....

Its not just all about a CPL (getting paid) or PPL (not getting paid) now is it??? :hmm:

[shortstripper]

Going to create mayhem......but I must admit I did learn 300 times more bits of information as a CPL than a PPL.....

Its not just all about a CPL (getting paid) or PPL (not getting paid) now is it???

I'm sure you did Jinkster, but how much of it can you honestly say is essential to know to teach at PPL level? I'm not trying to belittle the CPL (I may very well decide to do the CPL myself one day), what I am saying is that to teach basic PPL, experience backed up by the FI course itself should be quite adequate. Having to take the CPL papers is rather OTT, especially as to take them these days you have to attend a fair bit of compulsory ground school even if taking the home study route. It's going to cost at least £2k on top of the £5-6K for the FI/R and require possibly two or three, two week blocks of time + three weeks? FI course. There are many experienced PPL's out there who (dare I say it) actually know loads more about the relevant issues to do with PPL type flying than the majority of fresh CPL's would have a clue about. This talent is presently being wasted, as few will go to all that expense to teach alongside another career. OK, you can say they shouldn't ... but they used to, and they did a bloody good job. What's so different now that CPL and PPL instructors cannot work side by side? A PPL instructor is unlikely to be teaching advanced stuff so why not share the load?

I hear all the arguments about poor wages ect ect, but to be honest it doesn't really effect my sensibilities. I work in a notoriously under paid and overworked profession, so whilst I can empathise, I'm not over impressed by the "I work soooo hard, but get soooo little" line. At the drop of a hat most instructors would be off as soon as that first airline position became available anyway (be honest!). Those that stay should move up the instructional ladder to teach IR, CPL ect and be paid accordingly at that level. GA is never going to make lots of money at PPL level, but it's also not going to attract new customers if the instructional prices escalate beyond sensible limits. PPL instructors would provide a good base, with enthusiastic, experienced people to breathe new life into what is becoming a fast declining, ego chasing and elitist rich mans pastime/profession.

SS

Ducking quickly :E

[Jinkster]

SS (how appropriate :E , no need to duck).

I can see where you are coming from and in future days perhaps it will all change as the instructor leave for 'better' pastures.

Good luck :ok:

[P.Pilcher]

Having been fortunate to gain my instructor's rating when I was a mere PPL with 150 hours in command I can see everyone's point of view particularly as I could take my time to acquire my CPL and ATPL on the self improver route. Having been a part time fixed wing instructor who at one time worked as the only fixed wing air taxi pilot for a helicopter firm, I was interested to note that their rotary wing instructors were paid a living wage! This is due entirely to market forces and that there are no "glamorous" jobs at the end of a rotary wing PPL as their might be if the cheaper fixed wing path is followed. Over the last 30 or so years all the arguements have been considered and one point has been the wish to establish the career fixed wing instructor as the poor quality of fixed wing instructor has been noted by those who use it as a means to hour building. Over those years it has been made more "difficult" to get a fixed wing instructor rating to try and circumvent this problem. First it was the BCPL, now as we know, new instructors are expected to hold full CPL's before taking the FIC. It has made little difference as the new CPL with 1000 hours in his logbook is infinitely more attractive to most airline employers than the guy with 250 hours thus using instructing for hour building is in as much demand now as it has ever been.
Once again we appear to be entering a phase where there is a demand for newly qualified pilots and the instructors who have been waiting for their airline opportunity for years, living in penury as an instructor to keep current if nothing else are now taking the opportunities now offered with both hands. It has happened before and will do so again. Let us hope that this time market forces will force up instructor wages to the levels of our helicopter colleagues and enable those who want to make a career out of instructing to do so.
Another market force which has affected matters is the ease in borrowing money these days. I just managed to self fund my own CPL, but the I.R. was beyond me. After much planning I went to my bank manager, flashed my CPL and told him that I wanted to borrow a maximum of £3000. It was the first request of this nature he had ever received and I walked out of his office with an unlimited overdraft to go and get my rating! (Yes it was quite a few years ago - 1980 to be precise).
A few years ago I found myself flying with a newly qualified first officer who confessed that her loan to get her CPL/IR exceeded £80,000. Aparently she could only afford on her wage to pay the interest on her loan, not any of the capital back.
I hate to say it but easy money like this has made it so much easier for people to train for the CPL which has lead in part to the situations we have seen over the last few years. I hate to think of the numbers of people out there who have failed to get a job, run out of money, lost their recency as a result and are now either bankrupt or seriously considering it. They have probably given up all ideas of a career in aviation and will possibly regret the decision they made to train for the rest of their lives.

P.P.

[advocate for devils]

LEVC

if you want good FI's you have to give them decent conditions, if not they wont last long, and of course their motivation wont be the best one

Sensible quote LEVC!

I am currently going through ATPL and WOULD like to be a career instructor - I have taught people in the past and it seems to be a NICE way to earn a modest living.

From my PPL training, I (and several other students) felt hindered by the attitude of some instructors. Several seem to have a chip on there shoulder (others are better balanced with chips on both!) openly complaining that the world owes them a favour because THEY decided to spend money and time to get a Comercial License - "I should be respected and treated like a God; them I will consider acting like a professional". Maybe something can be learned from the humble driving instructor who can earn a reasonable living without the label of 'failed F1 driver' or similar

Many people in other walks of life spend time and money to try to develop themselves - not always successfully. However, the attitude of many instructors DAMAGES the chances of the career instructors (my OWN target) gaining a sensible wage.

REMEMBER - its nice to be important...... but it is more important to be nice.

[RVR800]

If instructors were paid more than the average office cleaner then they may elect to stay in post.

Wages have historically always been low in this sector and because of this 'unprofessional' wage many vote with their feet.

Its NOT just about leaving for the airlines its also directly a consequence of the low labour rates.

If we reverted to PPLs teaching PPLs then the CPL as a standalone licence would die - no point

[P.Pilcher]

I fully agree with PPL's becoming instructors (as I've said, I was one myself) The fly in the ointment then was that it was a cheap way of gaining the magic 700 hours reguired to remove the requirement of having to do an expensive approved course for the CPL. What we need now is for there to be no advantage in gaining an instructor's rating on the road to obtaining a CPL, or maybe these days a frozen ATPL. Of course a few hundred hours of instructing gives additional experience, but this should not be a mandatory requirement as it was for all but the very rich then.

P.P.

[shortstripper]

If we reverted to PPLs teaching PPLs then the CPL as a standalone licence would die - no point

Not sure what you mean by "no point"? No point in allowing PPL's to instruct? or no point in having a CPL as a stand alone licence?

If it's the former, then you have swept away any arguments for or against without so much as a "but" or "if" :mad: If it's the latter then nothing is changed. The CPL as a stand alone licence is very limited anyway but hasn't died yet. Unless you add something like a FI/R, or IR a stand alone CPL simply allows you to earn money by flying, as you know. It doesn't get you a job automatically ... that bit is up to you and the direction you wish to go. An FI/R should be added if that is what you want to do, not just as a means to an end. If it is, then you can't really expect to be payed hansomely as you're likely to leave as soon as an airline job becomes available. IMHO, it should only be added if you genuinely want to teach, or if instructing is genuinely relavent to what you want to go on to later. This may cut the number of CPL's getting an FI/R, but I doubt it as you still need those hours under your belt to be attractive to airlines ... that is why most (not all I know) CPL's become instructors in the first place. Career instructors should get payed well, but that is why I say that advanced training is where the wages should be aimed. It's a commercial world, and just like other industries where experience is a requirement, those without, tend to be payed poorly until that experience is gained. If (and I doubt it will) this ultimately reduces instructor numbers, then the argument for PPL instructors is further backed up.

So saying "no point" has no point in itself does it?

SS

[unfazed]

Guys - Interesting and on-going debate

Why not see what EASA brings as regards to PPL instructors


I have been on both sides of the debate. When I was a PPL I did not relish the cost or time and sacrifice involved in gaining the (what I considered to be unnecessary) cpl. But I did distance learning, sold my car and got on with it. Now that I have done the hard work I can see it from the other perspective and don't wish to see my hard work and effort eroded for those who haven't been as focused or determined. There is a difference in skill level and knowledge between CPL and PPL whether you care to admit that or not.

Bottom line - if I was still a PPL I would vote for PPL instructors (and I have some sympathy with th case put forward).

Please don't tarnish all CPL Instructors as hateful young hour builders who hate PPL students, that is Bo££oc$s

If market forces and current regulations are left alone then Instructors pay should rise, if not and we allow PPL instructors then that should lead to lower costs for students and instructing for free.

[Snakecharmer]

Have to say that although, many moons ago, I instructed on a PPL (later 'grandfather rights' (R) BCPL), the course leading to the JAR CPL Skill Test - if done properly - is a good one and provides a solid foundation in operating an aeroplane in a professional manner. These days, my instructing tends to be for post-PPL students and, in general, I'm more comfortable with the the general level of professionalism / airmanship shown by students trained by today's CPL-qualified instructors than I ever was under the old 'PPL Instructor' system.

Whilst I'm sure that some of the old-style PPL instructors were good in their own way, there's no substitute for having to prove yourself at the professional level and be subject to at least some form of standardization before passing on your 'expertise'. Whether the CPL / ATPL ground exams are relevant to any of this is another matter - pretty questionable in my view.

In summary... I don't see a need for instructors to have regurgitated the many random facts of the CPL / ATPL ground exams, but let's have instructors who've passed a professional-level Skill Test - whatever we do, let's not simply bring back PPL instructors - they were outlawed for a reason!

[shortstripper]

Snakecharmer,

Is the FI/R itself not a decent test of skill then? I have a couple of CPL FI friends who reckon the CPL skills test was a walk in the park compared to the FI/R? Where you a crap instrutor as a PPL? Are you saying that many, most or virtually all PPL instructors were crap also? I found all my PPL instructors to be highly skilled and vary experienced ... I must have been lucky? Also by what you say, the magority of French PPL's must be pretty lacking too, as most of their instructors are just PPL's. Also a NPPL M having been trained by a non CPL instructor can simply do some differences training and fly virtually all the same two seat aircraft that most PPL's in this country fly ... but obviously in a much less skilled way.

I'd be happy with a tough pre-FI/R skills test if the FIR one is deemed not up to scratch? Or a harder FI/R skill test? What erks me is the ridiculous need to obtain the CPL ground exams to prove an appropriate level of knowledge to teach basic PPL. Even these wouldn't be too bad if you didn't have to do the compulsory ground school which makes obtaining these exams so expensive these days. Why is it that our CAA has interpreted the JAR standard required to become an instructor in a different way to other European countries? Where's the level playing field?

Still we can stay as we are and like the title of this thread says, instructors can remain a rare breed ... well, at PPL SEP level anyway. The microlight, SLMG and gliding though, will probably continue to flourish (until mode S kills that off ... but then I guess you proffesionals would prefer that we amateurs were grounded anyway).

SS

SS

[Snakecharmer]

Shortstripper... the CPL skill test may not be the biggest hurdle in aviation, but if you care to study the words I used, I stated that, if done properly, the course leading to the Test can provide a firm foundation. Neither did I say that I was rubbish (!), but I had a fairly broad aviation background prior to instructing - that background was not, however, mandated as a requirement!

I did not state that all or many PPL instructors were rubbish, but it's a fairly sound principle that a requirement to prove oneself at the professional rather than amateur level is more likely to lead to an overall raising of standards than not having such a requirement. However, it is indeed difficult to find the relevance of most of the exams to low performance SEP flying!

[unfazed]

Snakecharmer does NOT speak with forked tongue !

If Instructors become a rare breed then we will all be driving Bentleys pretty soon so bring it on !

Come on guys not all professional instructors are crap and not all PPL Instructors are Gods gift to aviation. A bit of balance is required. The CPL flight test and exams do raise the bar a tad although I agree that it is overkill and extra unnecessary cost for teaching a student how to fly.

I would be overjoyed if CAA refund me for the CAA exams and flight training costs when the PPL instructor makes a noble come back so that I can buy my car back.

[shortstripper]

Neither did I say that I was rubbish (!),[
No. but you implied that most were!

but I had a fairly broad aviation background prior to instructing - that background was not, however, mandated as a requirement!

And I wasn't suggesting that a fresh faced PPL with no experience should teach. My PPL instructors were vastly experienced and so I question why such PPL's should not be allowed to instruct now?

However, it is indeed difficult to find the relevance of most of the exams to low performance SEP flying!

Well that's where I agree, and that was my point.

Come on guys not all professional instructors are crap and not all PPL Instructors are Gods gift to aviation.

Funny that you should choose to put it that way rather than, say ... "not all professional instructors are Gods gift to aviation and not all PPL instructors are crap" Kind of sums up what most CPL instructors think of anybody who doesn't aspire to CPL/ATPL level.

I've never suggested that the CPL is not a level worth obtaining, or that CPL instructors cannot be very good or dedicated as instructors. However, I do believe that PPL instructors are not to be desmissed as amateurish idiots with nothing worth teaching. It would be nice to see new PPL's come out knowing that the PFA exists, that there is more to flying than club aircraft, big airfields and ratings. This is where experienced PPL instructors can breath life into the rather stale club scene of today. There are good professional instructors and good schools ... but to many just take money and churn out uninspired PPL's who fly for a year and give up, having never attended a fly-in or flown anything other than the aircraft they learnt in. When you say that the CPL insures a level of skill PPL's cannot compare with, I'd question it slightly. You can attain CPL with 200 hours in one summer, having only flown one type in nothing but good weather. Hardly likely I know ... but possible, but most of you seem to like sweeping statements about PPL skill levels too :mad:

SS

[cedmondson684]

I have seen many references to Instructors’ having better pay to improve retention; the flip side of course would be an increase in prices. Solution: Let’s get rid of this ridiculous tax on Avgas.

I would give both testi:mad: s to be a full time career Instructor; however, I could not take the large loss in income from my current job.

Chris
Part-Time FI(A)

[sam white]

Shortstripper,

I understand many PPLers have the skill set, and relevent experience to make good instructors. There are also those (myself included) who spent more time looking at my 'confuser' than I did at my text books during my PPL course.

The requirement to complete the CPL groundschool course does unfortunatly stop some 'would be good' instructors teaching. But it also ensures a basic minimum technical knowledge, above that of PPL level, so when students ask the slightly more in depth questions the instructors level of knowledge is above that found in the PPL text books.

In my opinion the CAA have got this one right, the CPL ground course (although weighted to commercial operations) is a good way of improving on the basic knowledge taught at PPL and private flying level. The FI course will provide the flying standards and teaching skills required to instruct.

SW.

[shortstripper]

But it also ensures a basic minimum technical knowledge, above that of PPL level, so when students ask the slightly more in depth questions the instructors level of knowledge is above that found in the PPL text books.

So an experienced PPL isn't likely to have expanded his/her knowledge over the years since passing their PPL? :hmm: I suppose pilots of 5, 10 ... 20 or more years know little more than was required to pass their original test?

Oh well, I suppose trying to put my ameteurish case on a forum filled with professionals was always likely to draw few friends :ugh:

SS

[bogbeagle]

I'm always interested in these threads, being a CPL FI myself.

I don't think that a reduction in fuel tax will improve the pay/conditions for flying instructors. What it would do is to allow the various schools to compete for custom at a lower price level. The students would likely benefit from slightly cheaper flying, I expect.

My school operates at around £115-ish per hour (dual), I think. Now, the fuel consumed averages at 32litres per hour. I would guess that its cost is something like £1.20 per litre. How much of this is a tax on aviation, I wonder?
Anyone out there enlighten me?

In any case, why should any aviation fuel be tax exempt?

As to the CPL question. I think that, by and large, the person who has attained the greater level of qualification is most likely to be the better pilot. Bear in mind that piloting has relatively little to do with handling skills (flame suit ON!)

An argument which proposes that PPL FIs would be as competent as CPL FIs, must be applied to all walks of life if it is to be consistent. Would it hold water if it was applied to Doctors, Solicitors or members of any other professional body?

Would you rather have a surgeon who had learned by observation only, rather than one who had received a formal academic training? They may both have excellent "hands", but the educated one is more likely to have a more complete comprehension of his task, I suspect.

More importantly, when the educated one encounters a problem which he has not experienced previously, he has an academic background which he can interrogate in order to arrive at a sensible solution. If that academic background is not available, the surgeon is left with nothing but experience....and in a novel situation he has no experience.

For my money, the perfect flying instructor has a fulsome meld of experience and qualification....both having been demonstrated regularly by test.

The underlying issues, though, are pay and conditions....at least, that's how I construe things. The industry' goal seems to be simply to coerce instructors into working as cheaply as possible. Flying schools are generally profit-driven...I've seen little evidence of any drive for quality. Why? 'Cos it costs money and there is a supermarket mentality which is prevalent.

Very many of my students cannot afford to fly. So, they scrape through a PPL and rapidly drift away. It's probably the same at your school.

I don't buy any argument that smacks of "instructing for the good of the student/light aviation". Flying is an industry and I can't imagine anyone instructing for free, unless they're desperate for flying hours, or perhaps need a hobby.

I know that, if I was instructing pro bono, there'd be a sight fewer pupils with whom I was prepared to persevere. You all must have encountered students who are not temperamentally suited to flying....ones that you wish would simply quit. Sensible ones self-select, of course, but there's always a few who persevere with flying training beyond the bounds of decency. They're hard work and I certainly wouldn't fly with these people for a hobby.Would your unpaid FI put up with these, I wonder?

Time for me to quit, I'm rambling.

Bogbeagle

[shortstripper]

An argument which proposes that PPL FIs would be as competent as CPL FIs, must be applied to all walks of life if it is to be consistent. Would it hold water if it was applied to Doctors, Solicitors or members of any other professional body?

Would you rather have a surgeon who had learned by observation only, rather than one who had received a formal academic training? They may both have excellent "hands", but the educated one is more likely to have a more complete comprehension of his task, I suspect.

What a daft analogy := A doctor would have had formal acedemic training to become a doctor in the first place ... ever heard of one who's learned by observation only? They become surgeons by choosing that speciality and honing that particular skill in a hands on way under supervision. Where's the relevance to flight training here? :confused:

It would be nice to have some input from a current PPL instructor, and I don't mean one who was, but who later went on to get a CPL. That sort, if expunging the virtues of PPL instructors are akin to politicians happy to see students saddled with huge debts having received a free education themselves :mad:

You're quite correct though, a "perfect instructor" is likely to be one who has vast experience in many spheres of aviation, is professionally qualified, totally committed to teaching and patient ... even if the student is not of the "right stuff" but wants to learn anyway :rolleyes: . Yes a CPL FI will have proved him/herself at a professional level and that's great, but they may not actually have much "experience" ... So what's best? An experienced amateur or an inexperienced professional? I suppose that may depend on where the student is planning to take their new found skill, I don't know? Ok I admit that is taking it to the extreme and adding a certain amount of assumption, but I'm simply trying to show that all is not black and white. In fact, it could be argued that a professional teaching qualification would be far more appropriate than a CPL when it comes to teaching people to fly ... how many instructors possess one of those?

Let's get something straight here; I'm not coming from the angle of a PPL wishing to easily become an instructor. I'm a long time PPL who was taught by (mostly) PPL instructors before the rules were changed. I expect some, if not all of those instructors probably do now have CPL's (if they are still teaching). The point is that I don't agree that they were likely to have trained me to a lower standard than CPL instructors teach the students of today. Yes one day I might possibly like to teach, but it won't be for a few years as family and other commitments swallow up any spare cash (spare cash ... what's that~?). When I do, it will probably be at NPPL level as I'm sure the rules will have changed to something more akin to what I've alluded to by then anyway. It's fine gaining a CPL if you have ambitions to go on to fly for airlines or even if you wish to make instructing a career, but I fail (even after these less than eloquent explanations) to see why a basic instructor of PPL's has to spend out so much to prove what a couple of stand alone exams could quite easily show ... that is, an appropriate knowledge to teach basic PPL flying.

SS

[Flying Farmer]

The requirements for an entry level instructor have to be set somewhere.

So would you rather be taught by a low hour PPL or a low hour CPL, thought as much :ugh:

[bogbeagle]

The Flying Instructors Rating is a professional teacher's qualification. The aim of the course is to teach the candidate how to teach. I'll grant that it's rather a short course for such a complex skill-set.....It should probably be several hundred hours in length. But then, perhaps the PPL should comprise 100-or-so hours with, maybe a minimum of 50 hours classroom work. You sure don't know much after 45 or, heaven help us, 32 hours.

bogbeagle

[shortstripper]

So would you rather be taught by a low hour PPL or a low hour CPL, thought as much

Who said anything about a low hour PPL instructing? Of course an appropriate level of experience should be required. Surely the instructor rating course itself should seperate the grain from the chaff?

The Flying Instructors Rating is a professional teacher's qualification. The aim of the course is to teach the candidate how to teach. I'll grant that it's rather a short course for such a complex skill-set.....It should probably be several hundred hours in length. But then, perhaps the PPL should comprise 100-or-so hours with, maybe a minimum of 50 hours classroom work. You sure don't know much after 45 or, heaven help us, 32 hours.


Yep you're quite right, but then is a 200 hours enough for a CPL? ... Look, all I am trying to suggest is that the old system with PPL instructors worked ok back then ... why not now? This thread started off with someone wondering where instructors of the future might come from as they were worried about the percieved lack of instructors coming along. I merely suggested that PPL instructors could fill a gap if there were more of them. I then said that it was mainly the cost and time involved in passing the CPL exams that put most off. I've nothing against taking the exams (even though I still feel they're OTT) ... but why oh why! can a non CPL aspiring PPL not just take the exams without the need for expensive ground school? If they can pass the exams then they have proven the have knowledge to CPL level. This could also be achieved by bringing in a stand alone test ... costing a lot less, but acheiving the same aim! Even if there were a clause attached saying that if a full CPL was later desired, further groundschool or whatever was required ... where's the problem? I still cannot understand why this is allowed in France but not here? Where's the level playing field that JAR or whatever was supposed to bring about? ... What a joke!

OK ... I'll crawl back under my rock just like a good little PPL should :(

SS

[sam white]

SS,

OK ... I'll crawl back under my rock just like a good little PPL should

From some of your comments it seems like you are the one who wants a divide between PPL and CPL pilots. know one has suggested that anyone should crawl anywhere.

I agree with you that a PPLer that wants to become instructor shoudn't need to learn about flight at FL320. Yes there is room for a stand alone exam for PPLers wishing to become instructors. I think though that the manpower to put a course together and overview the exams would mean a very expensive course for those few candidates per year that want to undergo it.

So an experienced PPL isn't likely to have expanded his/her knowledge over the years since passing their PPL? I suppose pilots of 5, 10 ... 20 or more years know little more than was required to pass their original test?

Every good aviator I know strives to learn more about aviation than they need to know. Is doing a CPL course not doing this?

[shortstripper]

Thankyou Sam,

I'm glad to see a more balanced reply. However, I've said from the beginning that I'm not anti CPL or trying to drive any devides. I simply think the present system requires too much in time and money to make becoming an instructor attractive. Indeed, if CPL's didn't need to use it as a stepping stone in terms of hours building, I'm sure we'd be in real dire straits as few would bother!

Every good aviator I know strives to learn more about aviation than they need to know. Is doing a CPL course not doing this?

Of course it is, but you'd don't really need to get the CPL (and spend all that money) to improve your knowledge if you have no desire to make a living from flying. I'm not knocking those that do, it shows commitment, but they are probably hoping to do it for a living. There are amatuer experts in all walks of life ... you don't have to be a professional to excell in anything.

SS

[advocate for devils]

I'm sorry to say but this thread appears to be in the same format of several other 'instructor threads'.

Why are there so many who hide behind the arguement that instructors should be paid a better rate for the job - when at the slightest chance of a they describe as a 'real' flying job are happy to offer their service free or for minimal wages just to get started.
(please note I also regard instruction as a real job)

However, the thought of PPL's taking the same enthusiastic attitude to teach is met with hostility about them 'stealing the bread from our mouths'.

Get a life and stop wingeing. PPL's everywhere hear moaning instructors going on about how little they are paid and how much the world owes them - especially in the past 10 years.

For recent 'Commercial Pilots' who have taken the choice to teach (either to keep current, get money, or enjoy flying with someone else paying) - please remember YOU HAVE A CHOICE! If the terms don't suit you walk away - it will be appreciated more than a whinge your way through the days!

It is also worth noting that the 'pitance' you get (in many cases over £20 per hour) is someone elses hard earned cash - probably harder earned than the instructors role.
:ok:

[unfazed]

Advocate for Devils

I don't share any of your views and can't help wondering why you are posting such nonsense on a forum with the title "Flying Instructors and Examiners" if you think that we are all rubbish

Remember this is.........

A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

So if you are already a PPL instructor - best of British
:mad:

If you are not an instructor and haven't paid your dues because you perceive the hurdles to be too difficult, too expensive, or you just can't be arsed then FOXTROT OSCAR to another area of the PRUNE website and get a life.

[advocate for devils]

unfazed,

Apologies if I touched a nerve! If you took the time to read my previous reply you would already know I am in the process of trying to become an instructor (long way to go).

While the financial reward is also important to myself I have my eyes wide open. Having recently completed my PPL. I am no 'natural pilot' and accept the fact I will be spending £10.000's to get where I want to be - MY CHOICE!


If you are not an instructor and haven't paid your dues because you perceive the hurdles to be too difficult, too expensive, or you just can't be arsed then FOXTROT OSCAR to another area of the PRUNE website and get a life.


Your hostile reply (without checking the facts!) is an excellent example of some of the attitudes I have highlighted. THANK YOU FOR PROVING SOME OF MY POINTS AS ACCURATE.

I am aware of MANY excellent instructors- several who have not only helped me get where I am today but also have actively encouraged me to look at the 'career instructor' route.

My point is aimed squarely at the MINORITY who are so protective of themselves and so selfcentred that they will down hearten and scupper the aspirations of others because they cannot cope the the chips on their own shoulders.

MCC I understand to be a requirement for the airlines - including the ability to work with and respect others opinions! I simply think instructors could be helping themselves more by helping each other!

[Say again s l o w l y]

I don't think there is much of an argument about paid CPL or unpaid PPL FI's.

There are very, very few new PPL FI's now. I haven't met any (apart from the occasional CRI) for quite a while. Infact, I haven't met that many new FI's at all. Certainly nothing like the numbers of a few years ago.

My solution to this is two fold. Firstly make instructing a true career path, rather than the current stop gap. This will improve standards and breed some passion back into instructing. This can only be done with better pay and a long term path for FI's. Pay isn't the only motivator, but not enough can be an even bigger demotivator.
Secondly, make it so that anyone who holds an FI rating, is able to be paid. To ensure sufficient knowledge, the course should be longer and more involved than it currently is. There should be some dispensation for a CPL holder, since they have already demonstrated a greater level of knowledge.

This may not be a panacea, but it can't make things any worse than they currently are and you never know it may even help!

In answer to the inevitable "...but how can we pay FI's more?" The simple answer is that we charge more for the instructor and we as an industry work hard to try and reduce the costs. Fuel tax being a prime example, ridiculous over-priced parts being another area. Moving the UK a few hundred miles south might also help so we can get a few more days in the air aswell!

[shortstripper]

SAS,

At last! A considered and sensible approach to the problem without the "them and us" attitude that others have mentioned! :D

SS

[unfazed]

Advocate for devils

I have checked your posts again and although you might well be studying to become an instructor your posts do appear to be negative towards CPL instructors (and not in a minority way either).

These guys are the ones teaching you what you need to know, they might be getting a bit frustrated teaching someone you obviously know it all already.

So why not simply pass the ATPL exams and then put your money safely back in the bank and go straight to the FI course. Then you will be a PPL instructor and you won't need a CPL course, you won't spend thousands of pounds and you can demonstrate what a great PPL instructor you are.

[advocate for devils]

Unfazed,

I have already apologised for touching a nerve - I trust you may recipricate after launching another verbal assault without CHECKING the facts (see my quote below)

Having recently completed my PPL. I am no 'natural pilot' and accept the fact I will be spending £10.000's to get where I want to be

My understanding is that to get paid (yes I do need some money to live on) I require to complete the ATPL and at least CPL.

My comments are certainly NOT as attack on CPL holders - let alone an attack on any individual. I am simply stating the obvious - many PPLs' get demotivated and disillusioned by instructors (yes the minority) who persistantly moan about there own position, underpaid, etc......

I personnaly respect those who have went to the trouble (and expense) of getting their license - but it does not mean I need continue to respect those who appear to be protecting their own interest (getting paid for flying) to the detrement of others (don't want PPL instructors) while moaning about their own position (there choice to work).

My last real job paid £60k per year, lots of unsociable hours, but no real hassle. Simply, I didn't enjoy it. My choice to spend my time and money to get a job I want to do (maybe not the best money but my choice). The reverse of this is true - if money is the motivator them maybe a change of career is required.

I do not see the rates going much higher for PPL instruction (certainly not while the attitudes of schools, instructors, remain the same). The tempation to go to Spain or elsewhere is increasingly attractive - something radical has to change in the UK to change that. I think PPL instructors could be the answer. The apparent 'lack of CPL instructors' would be addressed and the CPL senior instructor could get paid a better salary with the responsibility of looking after junior 'PPL Instructors'.

I think the above would be great for everyone but the 'divide' between the commercial and non-commercial guys must be bridged first-
THIS IS THE REASON FOR MY POINTS

I again apologise for upsetting you UNFAZED!

[Craggenmore]

It is also worth noting that the 'pitance' you get (in many cases over £20 per hour) is someone elses hard earned cash - probably harder earned than the instructors role.Where I used to instruct that comment proves very wide of the mark. My students tried to kill me yet I never taught a hit-man..!

[Say again s l o w l y]

advocate, whilst I don't want to get dragged into your p***ing match, I will get stuck in when it comes to your comment "It is also worth noting that the 'pitance' you get (in many cases over £20 per hour) is someone else's hard earned cash - probably harder earned than the instructors role."

What a load of rubbish. Either you have no concept of what the job really entails, or you think the rest of the planet work like pit ponies.
An FI who does the job properly, works bl**dy hard. Certainly far harder than any airline pilot.

I suggest that you don't go into instruction, because from the tone and comments in your posts, you don't seem have love for the job or respect the people you would end up calling colleagues. These are two prerequisites in my eyes.

Stick to your £60k a year job and just hire when you want to fly. Your comments have naivety written all over them. An FI does a difficult and poorly rewarded job, who are you to say that those who do it and are cheeky enough to get paid are any less worthy than those who cannot get paid?

It is comments like your's that create the "bridge" between paid and unpaid. I have no issue with either side, but I make the choice that everyone in my place gets paid as well as possible with NO unpaid FI's.

Your limited experience IMNVHO don't qualify you to come on here and slag off the people who have got you where you are so far.

The old phrase "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" comes to mind.

[sam white]

SAS,

I agree with your comments except:

An FI who does the job properly, works bl**dy hard. Certainly far harder than any airline pilot.

I think that is a little unfair. the two roles are so far reached from each other that I think to judge one against the other is wrong.

as ar as the original post goes:

The earlier comments to make the FI course longer and give a dispensation to CPL holders- why not get PPL holders to do a pre FI course ground school course (and exams) and call it a .....CPL groundschool course!!

TAA DAA!

[Say again s l o w l y]

As an airline pilot and FI, I have always had to work much harder as an FI than in any airliner. Hand flying decrepit old turboprops included, let alone "systems managment" in something a bit more modern!

Nope, an FI does work hard if they care, especially as the actual teaching is often only one of the many tasks they have to complete.

Some students are a joy and with them, the job becomes easy, but with others...... Let's just say you start to understand why some species of animal eat their own young!

[shortstripper]

The earlier comments to make the FI course longer and give a dispensation to CPL holders- why not get PPL holders to do a pre FI course ground school course (and exams) and call it a .....CPL groundschool course!!


Isn't 27 a bit young to be a luddite Sam? At least SAS has thought about the problem, offered his opinion and come up with a plausible solution. Earlier in the thread you accused me of being someone who "wants a divide between PPL and CPL pilots" Do you not think that flippant remarks like yours above do just that?

I don't know why I bite at such comments? Perhaps it's the fact that I've been flying virtually as long as you've been alive? Maybe because having built two aeroplanes and been taught by PPL instructors who have probably forgotten more about aviation than you'll ever know (unless you remove the blinkers) ... has created a certain chip on my shoulder when it comes to the dismissive views of CPL's like yourself toward PPL's who obviously no so little! :ugh:

Despite what you might think, I have a tremendous respect for CPL's and have several who are good friends. I have considered doing the CPL myself, but to be honest, why would I or anyone not wishing to change career want to spend out thousands to gain a licence they will never fully use? Indeed most of my CPL friends would consider me clinically insane for parting with all that cash knowing my situation. However, just because someone has no desire to become a professional doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer in terms of expertise or experience. I'm sure the NPPL (or EU version if it happens) will address the disparity between aircraft groups (and countries) and come up with a more sensible way to allow PPL's to instruct. In the meantime GA will continue to loose out to microlighting or even non aviation pursuits as ever increasing costs will drive all but those with professional aspirations away from group A flying.

SS

[unfazed]

I have considered doing the CPL myself, but to be honest, why would I or anyone not wishing to change career want to spend out thousands to gain a licence they will never fully use? Indeed most of my CPL friends would consider me clinically insane for parting with all that cash knowing my situation. However, just because someone has no desire to become a professional doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer in terms of expertise or experience.

How about because you love the "work", have a strong desire to teach others, are determined to learn as much as you can about aviation, wish to develop your own knowledge and skills and have a very positive attitude that you can succeed ?

If you wish to motivate others you need to know how to achieve goals and motivate yourself first.:)

[Say again s l o w l y]

ShortStrippers comments illustrate why the current situation is ridiculous. There are many PPL holders who would make fantastic FI's, there are also many who would be bl**dy awful, but shouldn't we allow those with the skills, passion and experience teach the next generation of PPL?

Having a CPL doesn't make you a better pilot or instructor. You supposedly have more knowledge, but is it always relevant? I knew stuff all about PPL flying when I started instructing, having been a CAP509 student, I had never held a PPL, so what was I teaching?

Having a CPL is a good start and demonstrates a certain level of knowledge, but what we need in this business, is the ability to teach, no licence gives you that, whether it be a PPL, CPL or ATPL. If we had a better FI rating, we could get rid of all these arguments and just have a new breed of professional pilot. Instructors, not wanabee airline jockeys or enthusiastic amateurs.

As long as they can all get paid fairly, then there should be no issues. We are in a parlous state now and need radical action to help kick start some life back in.

[shortstripper]

It's nothing to do with motivation Unfazed, it's more to do with lack of time and money.

It's very easy for somebody in their twenties, with no great ties or responsibilities to see everything from their point of view (not saying this is you, but bear with me). This developes a "well I did it despite some hardship ... why can't you?". Whilst that is true and fair in itself, it is a very short sighted and selfish way of looking at things. There are many out there who would dearly love to throw caution to the wind and borrow £25K (assuming they could) to gain a CPL/fATPL FIR. In my case (just for illustration) I'm married with five children, work as a farm manager (which is a notoriously poorly paid profession) work and live on the job (what's spare time?) and only manage to fly by reduceing the costs to a minimum. Yes I am very passionate about flying, but my passion tends to be for vintage, homebuilt and strip flying rather than IFR and airliners. I would love to instruct and impart some of my enthusiasm for this kind of aviation to others ... but it is just impossible at the moment as my first responsibility is to my family. Spending £5K and three weeks getting the FIR is one thing, but spending £10K + and 6 weeks or so before even that, is quite another. Yes, I'd love too, if I physically could ... but my next opportunity to have that much time and money will be in about 15-20 years time if I'm lucky! Mind you, getting time to teach in my case would be very limited right now anyway, that's why I've said my case is for illustration. The point is, there are many very experienced and passionate PPL's out there, and they don't need a CPL to prove that they are (that's just bloody arrogant). Many would and COULD teach if they didn't have to spend a fortune in time and money unneccasarily!

SS

[sam white]

Shortstripper,

Sorry if you misunderstood my last (Flippant) comments. I stand by my earlier comments it would be nice if the CAA came up with a stand alone course for PPLers wishing to instuct. But the expense of putting together a course for the few that wish to undergoe it may make it a non starter.

The CPL groundschool course does not cost thousands (£1995 distance learning). That is the requirement to be a PPL instructor (plus FI course). So I personally think that the hurdles are not that high.

Isn't 27 a bit young to be a luddite Sam?

I would have thought someone that has been flying as long as I have lived would have learned that age isn't always a tell tell sign of experience.

[sam white]

SAS,

As an FI I choose when to go flying, as an Airline pilot I don't have that luxury, the roles of the two are very different.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Not sure I get your logic there Sam.

I don't get to choose when I fly as an FI either. I put my availability into a book and if someone books it, then if the conditions are OK, I go flying.
If an airline pays me to fly within the FTL scheme of the company and the conditions are good enough and the a/c is serviceable, then I go flying, but that's the same with any job. Instructing, air taxi or airline.

If you were a full-time FI, then you have to have a reason for not going up, not just because you don't feel like it. The same as if you are working for an airline.

Instructing and airline flying are different, but they aren't that far removed. People who are good at one, are often good at both.

Age isn't really relevant in this discussion as you're 27 and I'm a crusty old 28!

[sam white]

SAS,

My comments were based on Wx.

Good instructors dont scare students silly in really crappy Wx. In the Airline pilot role we are not given the luxury of deciding to stay on the ground due to Wx. (within limits).

SW

[Say again s l o w l y]

We still have the same go/no go authority, it's just that the weather limitations are different. Fundamentally we still have the same power to refuse a flight on any grounds, it's just that an airline pilot has to be really sure of the decision, but on the flip side they have more guidance in the Ops manual to help with the decision making process.

For instance, if the wind is greater than 40 or 50kts, alot of aircraft wouldn't be allowed to open or close their doors, so the decision is an easy one. No go. I have wx criteria in our flying order book. It is different for different levels of experience, but basically it gives a limit to what people are allowed to fly in. The same as an airline ops manual. The figures are just lower.

[shortstripper]

Sam,

I'd forgotten about your previous post with a suggestion of a way forward, so I apologise about my Luddite comment. That was aimed at the entrenched view that things are ok as they are, which is normally a trait of older, not younger people. Age is no sign of experience as you say, but age does have the advantage of mellowing ones views on other people and their abilities. You loose the arrogance of thinking that your way is best and you start to see things from other angles far more clearly. Don't get me wrong, this isn't always a good trait, as younger people tend to see fewer problems and act accordingly, which usually gets things done! We fuddies often get bogged down in the mire of thoughts about possible problems that all too often aren't even there!!! I'm not actually that old, and I'm sure you have far more hours than I, so good for you. I think though, that when you reach the age when people half your age, make remarks that denigrate all the experience you have gained or even assume you have very little ... you may get a chip on your shoulder too!

SS

[unfazed]

Shortstripper

I too have a family and money is extremely tight but I did distance learning whilst holding down a full time job and passed the CPL exams.

Then I sold my car to fund the CPL course

Then I put 5K on a bit of plastic to fund the FI rating

Yes it was a hell of a sacrifice and I wish I didn't have to do it all but I did

So it can be done and you can do it if motivated enough

You don't need the CPL course so you can save 5k straightaway

Your potential investment is £1800 for distance learning (plus exam fees)
£5k for FI Rating

Job done !

[shortstripper]

Unfazed,

I take my hat off to you. Really, I do .... and I'm seriously looking at doing similar. I'm just rather stuck at the moment. My work really does take up over 90 hours a week at the moment and has done for the last two years. It should ease soon ... (I bloody hope so as I can't go on like this). However, I'm hoping the NPPL will change things for the better, but we'll see. One thing that being in the position I am in though, is that I appreciate both the sacrifice made by those like yourself, and the difficulties faced by others in similar positions to myself. What gets my hackles up, are the few .... actually, far from few, who are handed their lives on a silver platter but look down on those who struggle. If they take their good fortune with grace then good for them, but when they snub folk with less privaledged upbringings then they are not only bigots, but fools also. I'm rabbling because \I'm one bottle of wine down, but the sentimate i9s true. I'm a firm believer in the idea that someone, anyone with a passion is far far better an example toothers than someone who simply does because they can! My PPL instructors were brilliant. One was a WW2 Lancaster and hurricane pilot, who after leaving the RAF went straight into teaching PPL's to fly Tigermoths with a PPL and instructor rating. Instructors like him and many others I've met, know far more than a 200 hour frozen ATPL could ever dream of knowing .... but they are still just PPL's! If all is well with the way things are now, then how can we have PPL holders who have never heard of the PFA? PPL's who have to ask if landing on grass needs a specific checkout? or PPL's who have never been shown how to side slip! Any fool can churn out idiots who can fly by numbers ... they even got monkeys to fly spacecraft FFS! To really teach people to fly, to impart the LOVE of flight and to get simple pleasures from that perfect landing, that perfectly kicked off drift just as your into wind wheel touches down in a stiff crosswind or the sound of the exhausts ticking as they cool after a rewarding flight .... that takes more than just a bit of paper. That takes passion!

I really do appreciate that by taking the CPL you are proving yourself in an acedemic way, and that's fine. The PPL howver, is not just the stepping stone to a professional career and doesn't need acedemic tutors. What it needs is enthusiasts. Get them enthused about aviation in general and they will stay. That will benefit the professional instructors (with CPL's) as more may decide to go on to try and gain ratings and aspire to professional status themselves ... a bad thing? For goodness sake, we all love to fly don't we?


****1 ... I've had too much to drink, ||I'll regret this post in the morning so don't be surprised to see the edit brush. Night night all.

SS

[unfazed]

Shortstripper

Wine or not I can tell from your last post that you have a passion for flight and that you have expressed your passion for flight in a very human way

I hope that EASA brings changes that make it easier for pilots to get involved in flight training and that you fulfill your flying ambitions. Don't worry about those with silver spoons or arrogant manners as they will always be around and you will just have to deal with them, as an instructor you will come across a few from time to time.

Hope your circumstances change for the better soon !:)

[shortstripper]

I knew I'd regret it .... Oh my head! :\

Nice wine though ... A bottle of Pinot Noir that I've been saving, wasn't going to drink it until Christmas but my will power is lacking on occassions :ugh:

SS

[jerezflyer]

Your potential investment is £1800 for distance learning (plus exam fees)
£5k for FI Rating
Job done !

Plus the cost of hour building of course!!!

[unfazed]

JerezFlyer

Agreed, but then we were talking about PPL Instructor candidates who have experience and hours under their belts as PPL's to pass on to students.

[foxmoth]

It is also worth noting that the 'pitance' you get (in many cases over £20 per hour) is someone elses hard earned cash - probably harder earned than the instructors role.
£20/hr may not sound like a pittance until you add up the fact that at most schools this is only paid when you fly so briefings etc are not paid and if the wx is dud you are not paid either, on a good day you might fly 5 hours or so but even at this rate you will only be getting £500/week - by the time you add in the dud days probably well under £20,000pa not a great salary these days!

[timzsta]

Just because you have gone down the fATPL and then FI rating route it doesn't mean you lack a passion for flight or get a buzz out of a good crosswind landing.

I tire of reading on here the kind of drivel that says "these young FI's these days don't know what they are talking about and are only in it for the hours" etc. "Bring back the PPL Instructor Rating - those guys are much better".

When I first started Instructing an experience PPL said to me and I quote "Your may have only got 250 hours flight time, but you have got 250 hours flight time of being trained. I have 500 hours, but 450 of those have been spent developing bad habbits".

I can assure you shortstripper they don't just give out things like CPL/IR/FI ratings willy nilly. You have to work damn hard to get those ATPL passes and get the examiner to sign your bit of paper on your flight test.

I take pride in trying to deliver quality instruction to my students and am constantly picking the brains of the experienced FI's at my club. And that is despite my ultimate goal being to get a job in the RHS of a jet. The amount I have learnt over a cup of tea on a rainy day or a beer at the end of flying.

And the thing at the moment I actually long for the most? To actually get away from my airfield on some nice social cross country flying - the kind of stuff that so many on hear seem to think counts for more then anything else when it comes to imparting flying knowledge it seems.

Anyway just felt I needed to get that off my chest. No doubt I will be slated for it.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Speaking to an old friend the other day who started Instructing ten years ago. He was on £15/hr then. During the summer I worked flat out 7 days a week for one of the summer months. Left home at 0800 and quite often got back home 2000. Flew about as much as was possible.....at £15/hr and only justed managed to cover my monthly out goings. Now that the weather is on the change the average is about £600 to £700/ month.
Instructing is great fun but I cannot see how you can make a livable wage through the winter. Terms and conditions don`t seem to have improved much over the years, especially considering how much the investment is to qualify as an Instructor.
I spent in excess of £30000 of my hard earned cash to qualify for a new career that doesn`t pay a living wage.
Oh and worked out what the longest serving PPL Instructor working with me grossed last year.....£12780!!!
well below £20000