Instructing for Free???

[mustflywillfly]

Dear All,

Please don't bite my head off but.........!! Is it realistic to gain the FI(R) rating and then offer my services for free to a UK Club/School (on the south coast) on a part time, mainly weekend basis?.

I know that FI's get paid very poorly and some schmuck offering his services for free would upset the other instructors, if so, could I expect to be paid for doing just part time instructing?

I have been flying since I was 17, joined the Navy as a pilot after Uni, passed grading and elementary flying training but got chopped on advanced helicopter course (black art). Since then (2002) I have been flying a desk in the Navy and pretty much hate it! I love flying (have a PPL and about 154 hours with 61 PiC) and having taught groundschool to cadets and Navy engineers I realise that I get a massive buzz from teaching. Obviously I would like to combine the two but cannot afford to do it as a career, I would need to stay in the Navy Mon-Fri and instruct at weekends.

Am I being realistic, before I invest more money into hour building and ATPL groundschool etc.

Many Thanks MFWF:ok:

[foxmoth]

I would say do NOT instruct for free, I fly commercially and instruct for fun but on principle will not instruct for nothing even if it is an aircraft I particularly want to fly, you should be able to find a school that will pay you, especially at weekends when there is most demand and undercutting those who need to instruct is just not fair on them.:{

[mustflywillfly]

I would say do NOT instruct for free, I fly commercially and instruct for fun but on principle will not instruct for nothing even if it is an aircraft I particularly want to fly, you should be able to find a school that will pay you, especially at weekends when there is most demand and undercutting those who need to instruct is just not fair on them.:{


Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't want to undercut anyone, I just wasn't sure if a school would be interested in a part time instructor on their books. Can I be necky and ask if you can suggest any amenable schools at Shoreham/Goodwood/Lee/Bournemouth ??!!??

Thanks

[VFE]

Do not instruct for free. You will not be popular and you do nothing to help those like myself who rely upon instructing to (almost) pay our bills.

Sky Aviation at Shoreham were looking for someone recently. £200/month retainer and £12.50/hr.

Good luck!

VFE.

[mustflywillfly]

Many thanks VFE

[18greens]

I'm going to say the same as all of them. Do not instruct for free. It's not fair to other instructors and it undervalues your skill. One other option is to take payment in flying rather than money to keep up your P1 time.

All schools/clubs need instructors. They all seem to welcome part-timers especially at the weekend to cover the glut plus the fulltimers like to get the occasional weekend off. No school minds paying the going rate £15-20/ hour. If they do go somewhere else.

Clubs churn instructors all of the time- mainly due to the poor pay, you should have no trouble locating a position.

[Dr Eckener]

You must not work for free. It is bad enough with people working for airlines for free, or even paying to do so, without instructing becoming another victim. Schools charge customers for your services, so you should get paid.

If you want to fly as a hobby then do so, but do not undermine things for everyone else!

Lots of schools want part time instructors so don't even think of offering to work for nothing. If you get asked to then tell them to take a hike.

[homeguard]

If you wish to gain your Instructor Rating based on your PPL and therefore Instruct for free, then do so. It matters not what the FEW self interested think.
The industry desperately needs people who want to be part of a club for the fun of it and teach fellow club members FOR FREE! Thats how it use to be until the wannabees took control but sadly aided by ill judged support from the Belgrano. They too, the Belgrano, seemed to think that the flying instructor role was only a path to the airline job.
Many flying clubs are on their knees and surviving by the skin of their teeth and many are closing down. The only way flying will be revived in this country is if we can get back to the 'club' where members share flying as recreation and a common genuine interest.
You sound like the perfect fella to be an Instructor - do it!

[Dr Eckener]

Homeguard, you have got to be joking. It is not about 'wanabees', but about being able to progress to the required standard to be a good instructor, able to teach all aspects of flying (PPL/IMC/CPL/IR/ME/Aeros/FI/etc.), whilst making a living. From a personal opinion, if I had not been able to earn money as a PPL FI, I would not have been able to progress to ME/IR instruction.

By all means have your 'club' where you don't have to pay for instruction. Just send me your business card, so that when I need whatever you do for a living done for free I can give you a call. :*

[VFE]

By all means have your 'club' where you don't have to pay for instruction. Just send me your business card, so that when I need whatever you do for a living done for free I can give you a call.

:D

Get real Homeguard.

Even the friendliest of small clubs do not begrudge the fledgling instructor a few quid for his services.

VFE.

[Say again s l o w l y]

To be totally blunt, for the long term health of the industry, the sooner the clubs that are hanging by a thread but surviving due to the FI's working for free go bust, the better for all.

Fixed wing flying is an uneconomic business due mainly to the fact that there have historically been people willing to do things for free. This has meant that the investment needed for continued growth hasn't happened as there is no real possibility for a decent return on investment.

This isn't a popular view point, but it is a realistic one. Too many amateurs and total incompetents have been involved with light a/c for too long. It has lead us to a position where now we have to fight to even survive. Let alone look to the future and fight the encroachment of issues such as Mode S and other such nasties.

Homeguard, to keep this industry strong we need people to see light a/c as a career rather than a stepping stone. How in the hell are we supposed to do this if people can't earn a wage from it? We weren't all born with trust funds. If this means GA has to get more expensive, then so be it. Will this stop some people? Yes, but what we really need is more people with more money, rather than the current large numbers of folk who can only just afford to do the minimum amount of flying to keep their ratings/licences valid.

This is purely a business observation, rather than saying that people with less money aren't welcome, but the reality is that we should be trying to attract people with money, rather than those without, but who are passionate about flight. We need all types of people, but you can't run a business around skint people!

So in essence. Don't work for free, you'll actually be contributing to the decline of GA, rather than helping it get stronger.

[effortless]

There were one or two genuine members', that is non profit, clubs around where instruction is given by fellow members for free. I thought that it was a condition imposed on the clubs. I believe that Cambridge Flying Group was one such case. Is this no longer true?

['India-Mike]

I'm currently finishing my ATPL theory. In Jan. '07 I have a financially-driven choice - pay for an instructor rating; or pay for a CPL.
If I go the former route, two local clubs get the benefit of an instructor next year that they wouldn't have. If I go the latter route I'll have a completely useless piece of paper for a year before I can afford the instructor rating.
Oh, and I won't be instructing for free. The clubs can charge a dual rate as usual - I simply won't be receiving any valuable consideration until CPL in '08. Clubs benefit to the tune of £25/hour for a year. I know CFI's at both clubs well - they know it's not in their or club interests to favour the 'free' instructor over those with CPL's.

[homeguard]

Those of you so passionate that ALL Instructors should ALWAYS be paid go now and find your old instructors who taught you for a pitance or for free - then pay them please what you hadn't done before. Then if you have any money left start your own school and make the fortune you claim is waiting for you.
Many of us hold the licences and ratings that we have thanks to the fellow club members who taught us many years ago for either a pitance or for free. We became friends more often than not. One such person who taught me for a pitance has remained a friend for 30 years and was best man at my remarriage 6 years ago. He is a current Captain for a major british airline and is partly so because of my and others patronage (mainly of course owing to his own hard work). It's a two way shake.
Britain is already one of the highest payers of instructors in the world. Evidence by many from all over the world who contribute to prune.
Go and get the rich and stuff the poor is not only niave but offensive to so many that have struggled through our flying clubs and have given back so much so that you could afford to be where you are today.
goflywillfly I wish you all the best! Don't be put off by wingers. The rich are not here in great enough numbers as is witnessed by the enormous decline in licence applications each year and the sorry state of our clubs today. By getting your Instructor Rating you will be instrumental in making it possible for so many others to fly and love it just like you do, rich or poor.

[Dan Winterland]

If you don't need the cash then give it away to a charity - the pprune fund perhaps? But don't instruct for free. You are devalueing the profession and hindering those others who aspire to the job.

[Say again s l o w l y]

When I trained, I always paid my Instructors. I got advice on the ground, but I have never asked anyone to work for nothing.

Homeguard, I'm afraid that you are being naive in this instance. There is space for the kind of utopian flying club you describe, but back in the real world where people have bills to pay, how could you get long term high quality instructors without paying them a decent wage?

Relying on airline pilots is a non starter, since they can only do the odd day here or there, or if they work for a company like my previous one aren't allowed to instruct at all.

Could you run a business with staff like that? I couldn't. Not exactly good for continuity of training either......

I am the CFI of a relatively recent entrant into the the wonderful world of PPL training and if you do it right, then a business can be successful. We started up because to be honest, the general standards at the moment are absolutely rubbish, in customer care, training standards and support post licence issue. Tell me how many places do any of these properly? There are some good clubs/schools out there, but there is an awful lot more dross.

Why shouldn't a business make money? Long term a business has to be able to stand on it's own two feet rather than relying on the good will of a wealthy owner/s to keep bailing it out and subsidising other peoples flying. Otherwise, what happens when that person gets bored by it?

This is a complex and emotive issue, but one that exposes a great many of the problems we face in this industry.

I'll tell you what Homeguard, you go and start a flying club with your own money and come back in 3 years and tell us your opinion then.

[foxmoth]

Homeguard,
If you think anyone is going to get rich instructing then you obviously do not know what instructors get paid in the UK. Personally I have no great problem with a PPL who does the required exams then instructs for free, - provided the school does not then charge the student (or at least charges a lesser rate, I will allow for the fact that they provide facilities), though it does not take much more to then get a CPL anyway.
The people who are "stuffing the poor" are not the instructors who charge (still a pittance), but those who undermine a decent wage for instructors by doing it for free:rolleyes:

[hobbit1983]

Isn't it probably the case, generally, that those who would instruct for free deserve to be paid the same rate that another instructor, who is instructing primarily as a means of hours-building?

Given also that the "free" instructor is by definition doing it for fun, and would therefore presumably be enthusastic & outgoing.

Not to say that the hourbuilding instructors are doing a worse job you understand; merely to point out that if an instructor is doing a good job for free, he/she deserves to get the market going rate.

And if said instructor wants to help those less well off financially, surely there are schemes, like flying scholarships/air cadets/etc that are there to do this?

[TheOddOne]

Our Group was originally formed by an Ops Manager at Heathrow to provide an environment in which airport staff could learn to fly who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. This was in 1964 and we're still going over 40 years later. We all give our services for free to minimise the cost-base and encourage a club atmosphere in which we all fly as friends. We are strictly restricted by the owner of the aerodrome from which we operate in who we can accept in our Group, quite rightly, so that we don't 'undercut' the commercial schools. In any case, we offer a quite different product. Interestingly, our membership numbers and hours flown have both fallen away in line with reports from many other organisations. We just don't seem to be able to attract enough people who fit our membership profile; there does seem a general waning in interest in learning to fly, even within the aviation industry.

In this context, I can't see anything wrong in instructors working for free for a self-help non-profit-making Group. In fact, I've just acquired the Class Rating Instructor ticket so that I can check-out PPLs properly. I won't be charging for this.

This is quite a different matter from organisations who are required to make a profit taking advantage of those who don't feel able to charge the going rate for their services.

TheOddOne

[Say again s l o w l y]

TheOddOne,

In your situation, there isn't any ambiguity, it is a non-profit making club bringing people into aviation. That is a fantastic thing and long may it continue. As you rightly point out, this issue is not about organisations such as yours, but about commercial companies taking advantage of people.

There is a general drop in the numbers of people coming through doors of flying schools. Schools are also failing massively when it comes to retaining customers who have finished their initial PPL training.
The industry is badly run and could concievably disappear in years to come. The less people involved, them more expensive it will be for those that are left in, which brings us back to only the very rich being able to afford it.

Not a good situation for anyone.

[Human Factor]

'India-Mike,

I'm currently finishing my ATPL theory. In Jan. '07 I have a financially-driven choice - pay for an instructor rating; or pay for a CPL.

In order to instruct, you need to have passed the CPL written exams, therefore you may as well do the whole thing. Also:

If I go the former route, two local clubs get the benefit of an instructor next year that they wouldn't have. If I go the latter route I'll have a completely useless piece of paper for a year before I can afford the instructor rating.

Oh, and I won't be instructing for free. The clubs can charge a dual rate as usual - I simply won't be receiving any valuable consideration until CPL in '08.

You may not be receiving any valuable consideration but the club will be, unless it's none profit making (pretty unlikely). Therefore you need a CPL. If there is any money changing hands, you need a commercial licence.

[Brooklands]

MFWF,

Have you considered joining the Volunteer Gliding Squadrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Gliding_Squadrons) ? who also instruct on the Grob 109 (a TMG/SLMG). Given you've already got a services background with flying experience I'd thave thought you'd stand a good chance. The only downside is that I think the nearest unit to you is RAF Odiham (http://www.618vgs.org.uk/), and I think it involves giving up a lot of your weekends.

As its run by the services, they train you (so you don't need a CPL or FI).
I'm sure that there are one or two on these forums who could tell you a lot more.

Brooklands

[mustflywillfly]

Brooklands,

Thanks for that, an interesting idea that I shall pursue right now! I'd happily instruct every weekend going!

Many thanks :D

[IO540]

A lot of wisdom from say again slowly, IMHO.

It's a pity however that even getting to be a PPL instructor for free (e.g. to teach friends to fly) one needs to sit the JAA CPL exams. That is more or less the whole ATPL ground school, AIUI. Who is going to bother to do that?

[Whirlybird]

Have you considered joining the Volunteer Gliding Squadrons

I looked into this. My 17 year old neighbour was an air cadet at Ternhill, and she dragged me along to find out all about it. You only need to do one weekend day if you want, but you have to be committed to turn up on that day, with only the occasional weekend off. Days are pretty long, starting very early, and often ending at 9pm in the summer. It's all quite formal in some ways, so I hope you don't mind being called sir (or marm), as in "I have control, sir". But they're a nice bunch, the lot I met anyway. They do indeed train you, for free, and with your background and experience, I'm pretty sure they'd take you on. They were going to take me, even though I was over the usual age (40 or 45 max I think), as I had a fair amount of experience...but I got a helicopter instructing job unexpectedly so changed my mind. And you'll help a lot of young people, who don't have a lot of money but want to fly.

Yes, if you want to instruct for free, this is the way to go.:ok:

[homeguard]

Say again slowly.
I am a Flying Instructor/Examiner including R/t with 20 years experience. I gave up my old career and bought my flying Club/School 14 years ago. We operate four aeroplanes and fly approximately 1500 hours a year. We have 5 part time Instructors some of whom are paid and one or two that are not but wish to contribute to the well being of the club. Many others do various things for us to keep the club afloat. Over the years we have been able to help many aspiring pilots onroute to their flying careers and give others a lot of pleasure and a sense of achievement.
It is true of course that many stay withing the club environment as full time Instructors and need to earn a living. Quite right that they should receive a living wage but sadly it is not always possible. The wage earners do not have a monopoly on the industry however and many of us that do work for a pittance should be given respect and appreciated and so should mustflywillfly whatever choices he makes. Others should not try to bully him into their own agenda.

[foxmoth]

homeguard,
I have no problem with what you do provided you are only charging your students a slight premium over your solo rate for the instructing facilities when they are flying with PPL unpaid instructors, or ideally pay the extra to your paid instructors - I suspect though,like most schools you charge a full instructor rate for these guys, and I doubt that you pay a rate to your paid instructors for them to be earning the fortune that you seem to think they get.:*

[homeguard]

So now we have to submit our prices to the Instructor gangmasters for approval. Is that what you're saying foxmouth.
One afternoon a flying school owner was riding in his limousine when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass.
Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop and he got out to investigate.
He asked one man, "Why are you eating grass?"
"We don't have any money for food," the poor man replied. "We have to eat
grass."
"Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I'll feed you," the flying school owner said.
"But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there, under that tree."
"Bring them along," the flying school owner replied.
Turning to the other poor man he stated, "You come with us, also."
The second man, in a pitiful voice, then said, "But sir, I also have a wife and SIX children with me!"
"Bring them all, as well," the flying school owner answered.
They all entered the car, which was no easy task, even for a car as large as the limousine was.
Once underway, one of the poor fellows turned to the flying school owner and said, "Sir, you are too kind. Thank you for taking all of us with you."
The flying school owner replied, "Glad to do it. You'll really love my place. The grass is almost a foot high."

[bogbeagle]

Made me laugh out loud. Wasn't a parable was it?

Do we take it, Homeguard, that you charge your students for flying instruction when you are paying nothing to the instructor involved. Sound business decision, I suppose, though hardly philanthropic.

Do your instructors and students know about this? What do your paid instructors think about the dilution of the available work by the unpaid instructors? I'm guessing that they hate it. I'm also guessing that they are "self-employed" flying instructors and don't dare raise an eyebrow for fear of being no longer required. I say this because I'm quite sure that a similar situation at my place would lead to serious unrest amongst the instructional staff.

Of course, you're right to say that you don't have to justify your business practises to us, but I'm intrigued nonetheless.

We had a guy at our place who had no CPL, but did a bit of instruction on Saturdays. Gave his "earnings" to the RAF Benevolent fund...very decent.

SAS has it right, I think. In my opinion, there are too many schools out there who are only trading by virtue of the fact that they are able to take advantage of their flying instructors....SAS says it all so much more eloquently than I can.

bogbeagle

[unfazed]

MUSTFLYWILLY

If you can find a non profit driven club that is actually run by members for members then why not work for free. Please don't do it for any club that charges customers for your time and then pockets the money themselves (illegal and unethical)

You will need to pay for your own license renewals and medicals so please factor that in (you may wan't to charge for "expenses").

You mention that you are in the Navy so I would suggest you check out Navy flying clubs or failing that RAF flying clubs. You might like to know that the it is possible to become an RAF Instructor where your customers are air cadets, you do not need a FI rating and can instruct on a PPL (unrenumerated of course) - I didn't know that but if I had I would have investigated opportunities locally.

If you go the FI route you will need to pass the CPL exams and if you do that it would then make sense to complete the CPL training (but it would be more sensible to bite the bullet and sit ATPL exams as they offer more opportunity for career advancement). Either way you would then most likely wish to be paid.

Other countries have non renumerated instructors but they are non profit driven real members clubs. Lets face it if you can log hours for free, avoid expensive and unnecessary extra training and help somebody else at the same time that is a real win win (JUST NOT SO COMMON IN UK THESE DAYS).

[foxmoth]

Homeguard ( I won't descend to abusing your username, though I can think of a few variations)
I would say you seem to be in the minority here, even amongst other club owners. You are obviously looking at it from an owners/business angle. I am looking at it as someone that has paid out to fly and worked my way up to flying for an airline the hard way and I think it is unfair on those who are stuck in instructing that they get paid a pittance by such as yourself. Yes I know it is hard running a flying school, but so are many other industries and I can think of few where someone with such an expensive qualification works for so little. To then say that people should do it for free whilst you rake in the benefits seems a little mean. There are no "Instructor gangmasters", if there were then fees paid might be a little higher, but I do think instructors should stick together as much as possible to ensure what little they have is not further eroded.
I also think your "parable" shows how you think - Owners rolling in it while the instructors should be gratefull for what little is tossed their way.:{
n.b. glad to see there are some who run schools that do not seem to think like this.:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Homeguard,

I don't mean to offend, but I probably will with these comments, so apologies in advance.

I do not know your club or the ethos behind it, but if you have to rely on unpaid "help" to keep your heads above water, then the long term future isn't exactly rosy.

I would not work with other FI's who cannot get paid. I would also not employ an FI who cannot be paid, as it would rightly cause havoc with the other FI's who would see it as having wages taken from them. I would be annoyed by it myself.

I take great pride in doing things correctly (as I see them), and paying people a decent wage for what can be a very demanding job is one of my goals. I am an Instructor first and foremost. Ripping people off by not paying them is something I find deeply offensive. If a company cannot afford basics like this, then how can you invest in the future?

Our instructors don't actually cost the company anything since they are paid by the hour which is directly paid by the customer. We are always looking to improve this renumeration and it has to be sustainable, but the goal is eventually to have our instructors earning a decent wage (not compared to McDonalds) rather than on an hourly basis.

The only real option is to let all FI rating holders get paid, regardless of licence type, that would stop all of this nonsense straight away.

Phrases such as "instructor gangmasters" are emotive nonsense. There is no malevolent force at work here, only people trying to get paid a fair wage for a job that requires a large amount of expensive training and hard bloody work.
If anything it is attitudes like yours that keep this industry in the Victorian dark ages in terms of staff relations, development and customer retention.
Compare the flight training industry with virtually anyother and you'll see how utterly rubbish it really is. Aviation has always been backward and it's only since the rise of No-Frills carriers that the airline world has changed into something less than a basket case. You may not like O'Leary or Stelios, but they are bloody good businessmen and they keep a lot of people in work and have opened flying up for all. They have done this by keeping costs down, but also by getting more people into their a/c. Again, by spreading the cost over more people, it gets even cheaper. Leading to more and more people. Which further reduces the cost.............

One last thing, do you have a 5 year plan? If so, is it to expand, get better a/c, more facilities and corner a market place, or is it just to survive?

[homeguard]

To be fair to you. I will explain. My school is a registered non-profit making concern. I cannot be employed by the school nor receive a dividend nor take profits. The club exists because of my money. I don't enter into a debate with anyone as to whether or how much someon is paid X or Y. I set the prices to pay the bills and they are not subject to debate. Nor do I expect my Instructors to chip in to pay the electricity bill.
I believe differently than some of you. I want to see the return of the flying club as it was. If others want to run a thrusting go get it money making machine then I wish them the best of luck. Cabair for example have done it successfully but there isn't room for many more without philanthropy. Many current UK regulations reflect the financial reality of flying clubs as it has always been. The exemption from operating on an AOC being one example. The introduction of the NPPL being another. We all agree that SEPL PPL training is declining but you should recognise that Microlite flying is booming here and abroad. Not surprising really. If you want to make loads of dosh then perhaps you should change to Microlites. Won't give you the hours toward the right hand seat of course.

[mustflywillfly]

Chaps,

First of all I would like to thank you all for the replies to this thread. It is definately a contentious issue resulting in a huge amount of debate!
The reason I wish to instruct is not to make money as the Navy pay is not bad at all, I wish to instruct to see that wonderful look on peoples faces when they understand something for themselves after a little coaching and to see people develop.

Whilst the Navy pays well I hate my job flying a desk and need more to my life, flying always has been and always will be my passion. I think I am too old to get into the airlines or even TP operators (31) and have too many responsibilities to fork out for the whole modular route. If I can fly for free and get that buzz from instructing then I might just stay sane!

I shall pursue the VGS initially and if that doesn't work invest in a FI rating then go for a not for profit club although I would happily get paid too and donate the money to the full time guys! (flying for free is my payment). Unfortunately the Navy doesn't have any flying clubs!! Although I would dearly love to start one. That's an interesting question! How do you start a club without any capital but bags of enthusiasm??? A whole new thread there!

Cheers Chaps

MFWF:ok:

[the dean]

seems that in general there is agreement to differ between the commercial flying school ( JAA FTO ) and the club or flying group (JAA RTF )...and the fact one should charge ( and be paid ) in the former and not ( at discretion ) in the latter...

well done those with that ethos...:D

i know many who have instructed for 40 years and more and never got a penny..and they never wanted to be paid...i still do the same but i expect to be paid in a commercial venture...thats the difference ....

i can understand those who say we should be paid...but it is our right to use discretion depending on the operation..and you know there is more personal satisfaction ( though it does'nt pay the bills ) instructing in the club or group where you give backto aviation what more likely than not...others gave to you...:D

so ..is there anything more to be said..??..

i do'nt think so...:ok:

dean.

[foxmoth]

At the end of the day Mustfly was asking for advice about what he should do and if indeed whether it was realistic to be paid as a part time instructor,obviously different people will give advice from different points of view, I am in much the same position as he is aiming for i.e. instructing because I enjoy it but do not need the cash so thought he might find my viewpoint worthwhile-only he can be the one that finally decides what to do and I am sure he will find his own way.
n.b. I would also instruct for free at something like the VGS or other worthwhile causes that were not operating for profit.
Whichever way you go Mustfly I am sure you will enjoy it. At 31 you are certainly not too old for an airline career, if you do a search you will find plenty of posts on this subject but if you are happy in the job you have I would certainly say you will find the instructing great flying and very rewarding.
Good luck and enjoy it.:ok:

[advocate for devils]

As a recent ppl student (now looking at ATPL) who had a mixed range of instructors I thought the following points were important:\

Instructors are keen to get paid a professional rate for a professional job - a fair and valid point.:D
However, BA pilots (unless I am ill-informed) rarely turn up late, or not at all:zzz: , when they have a duty prearranged for them! I know they have a support team looking after them but they do arrange for themselves what THEY are responsible for - not turning up without their maps, asking 'what did we do last time',:confused: etc.

Maybe this is why some instructors will not move on!:* I think it is reasonable to act PROFESSIONALLY first and be treated as such than the other way about! Paypackets will rise with a more professional attitude across more schools.:ok:



FOOTBALLERS - The minority make a fortune while the majority do it for fun. TRAINERS also range from Man U 'paid by the million' to local church 'paid nothing but love it'.

If instructors want to offer their services at a reduced rate WHY NOT?:mad:

I am aware of an instructor given a 'hard time' :ouch: for offering free night training (he needed it for his own development). The harrassment given by his 'collegues' was embarrassing! So much for team spirit - more like a team of thugs trying to create a Cartel before they lose interest and jump for an airline job!



I hope to be part of this soon. I am sure I am not the only student with this opinion of the industry.

[beamer]

Once upon a time a lot of pilots with instructor ratings DID instruct for free (perhaps a little petrol money) because they enjoyed it and had other full-time occupations perhaps in aviation or perhaps not. Obviously an instructor who has no other means of earning income and is hour-building will have to be paid for his/her services and rightly so. The down side is the loss of the flying 'club' instructor and the dominance of the flying 'school' instructor. Too many schools - not enough clubs in my opinion but each to his or her own I guess.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Nonsense, just because an FI is paid, it doesn't make them a better or worse instructor.

The "best" Instructors I have come across have always been the most experienced. There are very few of us who could get to that level without getting paid.

Compared to the cost of an a/c an FI is very cheap. So why begrudge people a wage? So that some ramshackle old "club" can keep going and perpetuating all the same old myths. Most clubs I have seen are beset with politics and ego's and some are the least welcoming places I have ever found myself. Not all clubs are like this. Mine certainly isn't, but they aren't the be all and end all of GA.

Flying training in this country needs to more professional rather than less and keeping it in the dark ages by restricting investment and earning potential is daft. IMHO.

[Dr Eckener]

The club exists because of my money
Hardly a business formula that can be emulated by others then.
I set the prices to pay the bills
Excluding the wage bills obviously.
Won't give you the hours toward the right hand seat of course.
Just because someone might have further ambitions does not mean they should be abused. Using this logic everyone who was not at the pinnacle of their career would be forced by their 'employer' to work for free.
The "best" Instructors I have come across have always been the most experienced. There are very few of us who could get to that level without getting paid.
Totally agree. Have also come across many excellent 'wanabee' instructors.
Most clubs I have seen are beset with politics and ego's and some are the least welcoming places I have ever found myself
Again totally agree.

If you want professional training then pay the man his money! (or woman)

Have a look at the thread about 'career instructors'. It is no surprise to me that there do not seem to be that many around.:ugh:

[homeguard]

Stop winging Dr Eckener and many others too about what others are doing and get a life of your own!
I do honestly wish you all the best for the future but you will have to stop being so cynical. It really is very sad to listen to some of you. Your all so negative about your own lifes and what you should get out of it yet so critical of others. It is a very exiting life if you swtch onto it.
Take seriously the words of Freud, 'you are born with two ears, two eyes but one mouth. The sad reality of so many is not to use each to the same proportions'.

[bogbeagle]

Mr Homeguard,

I don't understand how your club functions. You are not allowed to be employed or take a dividend or profit, so how do you live?

I would guess that you are self-employed and contracted to instruct at your club...is that how it works?

Your posts suggest that you are in business to promote flying and further the careers of other pilots at minimum cost to them, so presumably, you work for free?

Perhaps I'm quite confused, but your comments don't seem consistent to me.

Let's be straight.
Do you make a living out of your school?
Do you benefit from the unpaid work of some of your instructors?

If you do, then it would be hardly surprising for you to encourage people to enter the industry with the intent of working without pay.
I don't suppose that you'd like to advertise your schools' name on PPrune, would you? You may well be overwhelmed by new instructors clutching thin logbooks...eager to work for nothing. We know that they are out there.

I've tried to keep any acidity from the tone of this posting, but I'm finding it a struggle. I do consider your practises, as I understand them, to be extremely exploitative and unjustifiable.

Be straight with us and (hopefully) paint a more favourable picture of your organisation.

Bogbeagle
Sherburn Aero Club

[homeguard]

No Bogbeagle I am not going to justify my school with you or anyone else. The buck stops with me. How I run my school is my business and no one elses. Having said that I pay my instructors pretty much the going rate to most, perhaps a bit more than some other clubs and bit less than others. I also have instructors who do not need the money and are long standing associates and friends and who have the well being and success of the club at heart. I'm also sure that my paid Instructors do also. All of them have been with me for a number of years. Other members have over time done much to help keep the club alive and support me whenever they can and without payment. That maybe electrical work or something else. I would hope that they would all agree that whenever i can I recipricate those favours.
I note that you have signed yourself 'Sherburn Aero club' which I know well. Indeed i worked there myself 15 years or so ago part time/full time for almost two years. Sherburn is a big club with over 500 members with a considerable income from Membership fees/hangarage/Landing fees/rents from other users and fuel sales. The club is non-profit making and is owned by the members and administered in the main by its UNPAID directors. The club being owned by the members and non-profit making is able to be vat exempt from charging vat for most of its services subject to the Sporting and Recreation VAT exemption rules. Most years, the directors tell me, the club makes a loss on the flying training elements but this is offset by the other income. Sherburn is a smashing club and a flagship.
If you are employed as an instructor at Sherburn then you surely understand you are only paid and have the work because so many others work for nothing (unpaid directors for instance) and because of the dedication of many of its members. At one point in the clubs history during the 1980's the club faced bankruptcy. A number of individuals came forward with interest free loans worked for nothing and saved the club - that is called philanthropy and owing to that the club survived and is what it is today.
So you see, while of course I do not support exploitaion and I hope cannot be accused of it, but some will, I have been around long enough to value the contributions without pay that so many have over the years given to clubs such as mine and yours.
My reasons for contributing on this thread is to balance the argument 'that no one should work for nothing because it undermines the earnings of others'. But so many are only earning today because of the free time and philanthropy of many in the past and currently. If you work for Sherburn as an Instructor you are indeed a beneficiary of such philanthropy. There may indeed be an argument that when some who can give their services for free do so others can be paid when otherwise there simply wouldn't be the cash to do so.
Another qoute, 'those that know the price of everything but the value of nothing', Oscar Wilde.

[advocate for devils]

Can someone also clarify the role of CFI; are they just senior instructors or do they actually have some other role within a flying school!

What benefit do they serve and to who?

Our CFI did not instruct for free (neither did any of the instructors - whipping boys := kept this in order!) but I was not aware of him being paid or treated differently from the other instructors. He did however seem to spend a LOT of time on the ground chasing the other instructors and making their jobs seem incredably structured and easy to do. He seemed to do all the organising for the instructors and the background paperwork - apparently for no additional pay!

This thread appears to be in favour of ALL instructors being paid - what about CFI's. What is a reasonable pay to expect or is he REQUIRED by the other instructors? If this is the case should instructors be morally obliged to pay a contribution to the FTO towards the CFI cost to ensure they have a place to work!:cool: