Incident at EGPC/EGPD [Archive]

Airbubba

3rd Oct 2006, 22:17

have a feeling it was a 4 engine job ....

Are you perhaps thinking of Channel Express' L-188 in SNN back in 1999? They did a gear up touch and go after getting a GPWS warning and landed with only one engine undamaged. The plane, N285F, was scrapped (and scraped) after the mishap.

About twenty years ago, Pan Am had a gear up touch and go in Berlin at Tegel on a 737 type rating ride with the FAA on board. Most of the hydraulics were scrapped off the engines and a boost out pattern was flown with manual gear extension and air brakes on the second landing. Since the fed was a PAA furloughee, supposedly the incident was never officially reported and the plane was quietly repaired at TXL. As was a common technique in those days, the gear horn circuit breaker had been pulled for the planned no flap landing to finish the check ride.

Northern Listener

4th Oct 2006, 09:31

A Jetstream came in with wheels up and apparently with three greens in the cockpit, somehow the pilots realised without anyone from ATC/RFFS telling them it was missing and then climbed away at the last minute but did clip the runway with tail or underside of baggage pod.

They then flew round while “manually” getting the gear down before returning to Aberdeen.

?????
How did they know the gear was up if they had 3 greens showing in the cockpit, funny to me!

The aircraft had been in maintenance over the weekend though.

cwatters

4th Oct 2006, 11:16

How did they know the gear was up if they had 3 greens showing in the cockpit, funny to me

Me too but perhaps they could see their shadow?

Ronaldsway Radar

4th Oct 2006, 11:26

Or maybe realised they hadn't yet made contact with terra-firma when they usually do...:} cue lots of sweating and change of underwear.

Either way, good call to go around.

RR

Floppy Link

4th Oct 2006, 12:13

or maybe the "TOO LOW, GEAR" GPWS runs off a different microswitch from the cockpit indicator lights?

Back in the dim past when in the 757 sim a lack of gear lights was a non event unless we also got the GPWS and the gear disagree, but then a 75/76 is a bit more complicated than a Jetstream...

spannerless

4th Oct 2006, 12:43

:=
I'm quite appauled having landed wheels up a pilot would then elect to do a go round.
No sorry gents there's no rational argument for this one!
Once an aircraft is down it stays down particularly if like in this case (And we can obviously only go and react to the facts presented here) If a landing results in contact with the ground with parts other than designed to.

My own experience literally post Falklands campaign a rather experienced Harrier jet jockey in front of the whole station along with various nations dignitaries came into land an promptly forgot to put the wheels down (No he did really! No technicalities he forgot!) he then promplty selected the nozzles down and initiated a short take off recovery knowing full well the aircraft had made contact with the ground.
All praise he brought it back safely but!!!! it was down and out and had travelled several hundred metres on its Aden cannon pods! with luckily very little other damage.
It could have been different of course!

dixi188

4th Oct 2006, 12:54

Re the L188 Electra gear up landing at Shannon.
Just for the record.

The aircraft was operated by Renown airlines on wet lease to Channel Express, so no Brit crew involved. Don't think procedures at Channex would allow that cock up!

TopBunk

4th Oct 2006, 12:54

I guess it's one of those incidents where armchair observers will pontificate and muse for a few minutes before deciding what they would have done in the circumstances.

All nice and comfortable and all with the benefit of hindsight which helps no end.

In reality these guys/girls probably had about half a second in which to make up their minds as to the best course of action, quite possibly before first ground contact when the tower spoke up, or no shadow from the wheels or whatever.

It's not an event that probably crosses many pilots minds as to what they would do - that's why we have indicating systems and procedures shold they fail. Yes, we all mentally rehearse many scenarios, but I suspect not this one.

So, they had little notice and instinctively carried a manoeuvre which resulted in a safe outcome - I welcome the AAIB report, but in the meantime would find it hard and churlish to criticise.

There but for the grace of God ......

Spitoon

4th Oct 2006, 15:51

Ranger One

4th Oct 2006, 16:02

:= My own experience literally post Falklands campaign a rather experienced Harrier jet jockey in front of the whole station along with various nations dignitaries came into land an promptly forgot to put the wheels down (No he did really! No technicalities he forgot!) he then promplty selected the nozzles down and initiated a short take off recovery knowing full well the aircraft had made contact with the ground.

Oh come on, it's quite a different case when:
1. There's no-one else on board for whom you're responsible and
2. You can bang out if it all goes (even more) pear-shaped

R1

hobie

4th Oct 2006, 16:18

Couple of photo's from the Electra incident mentioned above ....

http://www.irlgov.ie/tec/aaiu/pictures/picture1.jpg

NO. 3 .......

http://www.irlgov.ie/tec/aaiu/pictures/picture2.jpg

NO. 4 ..........

Lone Ranger

4th Oct 2006, 17:47

The aircraft actually struck the ground. There are marks in the runway, both from pod and props. There was no last minute go around with no damage sustained. And unbelievably it did go back to ABZ. That sends a chill down my spine.

dontpickit

4th Oct 2006, 18:43

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/5405886.stm

TopBunk

4th Oct 2006, 19:44

All right Lone Ranger, lets say you get into the flare (do you know what that is, I presume?) and you decide something isn't right (you haven't touched down yet when your experience says you should have), or at that point someone says something over the radio about your wheels not being down.

What do you do? The aircraft is flying almost level, anticipating touchdown, speed bleeding off.....

Quick, decide ......

You think {expletive deleted} ... we're still flying ... full power .. pull back to arrest rate of descent and to climb ... fly away (probably from about 100kts) covering about 150 metres per second ... a second later, and now about 500 metres from the threshold of a 1200 metre runway the propellor etc makes (slight?) contact with the surface ....

Quick, decide again, cut the power and controlled crash or continue - it's still flying ok ... 1 more second gone by ... another 150 metres .... sh1t ... not much runway left .... can we stop if we put it down ....too late.

Remember, all this has happened in about 1/10th of the time it took you to read it.

Now you reflect on their actions and still criticise if you dare without knowing the full facts....go on.

Flying Hippo

4th Oct 2006, 21:45

At the time of the A/C coming into contact with the ground it did have an unusual "nose high" attitude, and taking into account the delay/time turboprops take to respond to throttle inputs it would suggest to me, in my humble opinion, that the realisation to the crew (by whatever means) that the gear was not down may have been earlier than anticipated by forum members.
i.e. they realised and reacted swiftly but due to this slight delay they were "unlucky" and struck the runway.

Or they were lucky that they onlt had 3 pax on board when they did strike other wise it may have been a very different ending.

Ranger One

4th Oct 2006, 22:00

All right [B]Lone Ranger[/B... You think {expletive deleted} ... we're still flying ... full power .. pull back to arrest rate of descent and to climb ... fly away (probably from about 100kts) covering about 150 metres per second ... a second later, and now about 500 metres from the threshold of a 1200 metre runway the propellor etc makes (slight?) contact with the surface ....

Quick, decide again, cut the power and controlled crash or continue - it's still flying ok ... 1 more second gone by ... another 150 metres .... sh1t ... not much runway left .... can we stop if we put it down ....too late.

...Now you reflect on their actions and still criticise if you dare without knowing the full facts....go on.

I agree, armchair quarterbacking (as we call it in the USA) is too easy. However, this is the point of LRs post where I would have some sympathy, and which you don't address:

And unbelievably it did go back to ABZ

I would have to have a bloody good reason to take an aircraft I knew had made contact with the ground on a long leg over water! OK EGPD has much better facilities for dealing with a possible emergency, but still...

R1

mustafagander

4th Oct 2006, 22:12

Don't think procedures at Channex would allow that cock up!

Just for the record, which airline/s proceedures would, in your experience, allow that cock up?

In our QRH I have yet to find the tab "Allowed Cock Ups".

How about a bit of understanding here? While we have humans involved, things will go wrong - get used to it!

Flying Hippo

5th Oct 2006, 05:46

Curious as to the decision to return to ABZ after getting wheels down.
I'd be inclined to get the bugger down before bits started falling off.

TopBunk

5th Oct 2006, 06:16

However, this is the point of LRs post where I would have some sympathy, and which you don't address:

Re returning to ABZ

I would have to have a bloody good reason to take an aircraft I knew had made contact with the ground on a long leg over water! OK EGPD has much better facilities for dealing with a possible emergency, but still...

Well, again without making any assumptions, we don't actually know that the crew were aware at the time of the runway scrape. I therefore am not prepared to make any judgement of anything subsequent to the G/A.

spannerless

5th Oct 2006, 12:50

Oh come on, it's quite a different case when:
1. There's no-one else on board for whom you're responsible and
2. You can bang out if it all goes (even more) pear-shaped
R1

Ranger I think you missed the point!

See the Electra pictures below my post!

I wouldn't be happy with you flying around with the inards of your aeroplane threatening to hit all and unsundry below you as you orbit to land.

If you suspect you f**ked up and suspect you may have broken the airframe best to stay on the ground no matter how embarrasing.

However, as one of the other poster pointed out we don't know for sure they realised they touched down. Which was my thoughts hence my response.

It makes no difference whether your a single seat thrill seeker or a capatilist venture merchant if you suspect you broken the airframe land as soon as practicable or stay on the ground if in circumstances simular to this don't try and advertise the damage by flying around the country side for all to see before landing again

.

Computer says NO!

5th Oct 2006, 15:10

don't try and advertise the damage by flying around the country side for all to see before landing again

.

Spanner, I think that this would be the last thing on their mind given the circumstances. Lets get out of our armchairs and wait for the report, then pass judgement!!

CSN

Tinribs

5th Oct 2006, 22:36

An earlier statement that there would have been a lag between seeking and getting go round power is false. I have recently converted from 737s to a modern turbo which approaches with about 100% rpm, power being controlled by prop pitch angle. Power response is much more rapid, not less, than a jet and is seemingly instantaneous

Sir Max

12th Oct 2006, 13:18

Been away - just heard about a possible wheels-up runway strike at Wick involving Eastern Airways. Anyone know anything?

throw a dyce

12th Oct 2006, 19:36

Sir Max

12th Oct 2006, 19:49

Caught up now, thanks. Very lucky indeed. Wick's tricky enough WITH the gear down! There's been a few incidents with undercarriage failures on Eastern Jetstreams - had one myself on a 31 charter out of Biggin Hill a year or so ago when the gear stuck down.

atprider

12th Oct 2006, 21:13

Tinribs, sorry, JS31/32 -Modern turbo Hmmm.... not so sure on that one!

Ranger One

13th Oct 2006, 14:16

I believe one prop has all the blades bent back.They also were extremely reluctant to declare an emergency into Aberdeen.Eastern say a warning light came on in the cockpit.:D :D EGPC has the correct fire cover for that category of aircraft.EGPD is no different.
Lucky it all didn't go splat.

Don't want to prejudge the inquiry, but really this is starting to *sound* rather sinister. The Beeb are reporting the AAIB initial notification:

"Wheels up landing. Aircraft took off again. Aircraft returned to Aberdeen. Substantial damage."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6045080.stm

Although a little bird has whispered in my ear that this may not be an entirely accurate quote. We shall see.

R1

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

13th Oct 2006, 14:28

<<They also were extremely reluctant to declare an emergency into Aberdeen>>

Hmmmm. Wonder why? Presumably not to frighten the pax?

sugden

13th Oct 2006, 15:23

I know nothing of this type, this airport, or this incident. What I will say, however, is this.

I infer from Sir Max's post that Wick is tricky, hence perhaps the decision to go back to an airport with a longer runway and with better emergency services.

However these guys figured out there was a problem, it was obviously very last minute. They reacted, kept it in the air and then, one must assume, figured out they were not about to drop out of the sky and would be able to make their preferred destination. I assume this because if they're like me they have no interest in dying any time soon and are going to do whatever they think has the lowest risk of death. Some of the posts here assume the pilots are members of the Jackass brigade, or maybe they were stoned teenagers out to show how hard they were.

Something went wrong, nobody died. That, then, is a victory. The rest needs to await the report, but I would say it is safe to assume that these guys would not have turned back to Aberdeen if they figured they'd drop before they got there. Can we please credit them with some basic human instinct to stay alive, even if we don't wish to praise their airmanship (and, for the record, from what I read here, I'm sitting in the "Brilliant job to save the plane and all on board, boys" camp.)

sniper9652

13th Oct 2006, 15:26

Tinribs, sorry, JS31/32 -Modern turbo Hmmm.... not so sure on that one!

Funny but I can't recall him saying he converted to a JS31/32? I think your making it up as you go-along!!!! :E

eastern wiseguy

13th Oct 2006, 15:34

<<They also were extremely reluctant to declare an emergency into Aberdeen>>
Hmmmm. Wonder why? Presumably not to frighten the pax?

Blimey I would have thought if any of the above were true then the pax would have been quite frightened already!:uhoh:

Yakshimash

14th Oct 2006, 13:02

Thought the idea of having 3 greens would indicate the gear was down and LOCKED....Can't imagine the sound of the plane scrapping along the ground, the prop taking junks out of the runway could have gone un-noticed by the passengers!!!! You'd be sitting there thinking you're about to die of northern exposure!!!
If the CVR is a 30 minute continual loop, then maybe the flight time from Wick -Aberdeen with one engine vibrating like mad tring to part company with the airframe, might have taken longer than 30 minutes, thus erasing for all time the true events.....;) :rolleyes: :D
Surely, having had that near miss, and once you'd sorted yourself out, a mayday might be in order?? No point in keeping quiet, a signature had been left on the runway at Wick. I'd want help ready just in case the engine that hit the ground decided to part company with the aircraft, and you didn't make it across the sea back to Aberdeen!!!!!:ouch:

EGAC

14th Oct 2006, 20:18

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/spad900/P-3.jpg
This is a shot of a P-3 firefighter scraping its retardant tank as it touches down gear-up. It went around and landed safely. Only the retardant tank doors and fairings needed replacement.
From memory, I believe this shot was taken during the 2004 fire season, possibly in Oregon.
There was remarkably little talk of it at the time and I saved the picture although not any associated details.
The incident must be well known within the airtanker community so perhaps someone out there can complete the picture.

Hotel Uniform Yankee

23rd Oct 2006, 19:20

Surely they cannot of had 3 greens or even checked to see if they had 3 greens if the u/carriage was not down and locked. The flight to ABZ would have been about 30 mins therefore the CVR would have been over written, so no proof of a checklists being carried out. If there was a problem with the u/carriage at Wick, then how come it worked Ok at ABZ ?
It will be interesting to see what action Eastern Airways take against the crew and who is to blame.

Yakshimash

24th Oct 2006, 10:25

Hotel Uniform Yankee, have you heard if any explanation has been given for 'the gear up landing'? Interesting point you made about the undercarriage coming down as normal at Aberdeen, does beg the question doesn't it.....Is the CVR a 30 minute loop on the aircraft in question?

tocken

1st Nov 2006, 15:04

Hotel Uniform Yankee and Yakshimash, do you think the crew could have opened the emergency hydraulics panel and attached the pump handle and then maybe manually pumped the gear down before they landed at ABZ. That's one method they may have used. Perhaps they consulted a magic spell book,said a few magic words and hoped for the best. Were you really being serious when you commented on how the gear was down for the landing at ABZ:ugh: ? The Jetstream is a little more advanced than a PA28:ok: .

Sonic Bam

1st Nov 2006, 17:59

A few points from an engineer's perspective:

"Thought the idea of having 3 greens would indicate the gear was down and LOCKED"
Isn't this statement exactly what Human Factors and CRM is all about - this says to me the crew saw what they wanted/expected to see.

"Surely they cannot of had 3 greens or even checked to see if they had 3 greens if the u/carriage was not down and locked."
Got to agree 100% with this comment. You COULD have all three greens with the gears retracted but the odds on having the combination of hidden failures in the gear positioning indicating system are up there with winning the Euro Millions Lotto. Failure risk analysis of systems at the design stage would have looked at this as an almost impossible occurance. Really, honestly, the odds are astronomic on the humungous scale.

"Is the CVR a 30 minute loop on the aircraft in question?"
I'd bet my pension on it. It is only on very recently certified aircraft that solid state 2hr CVR's are being installed. If the a/c in question is an Eastern J31/32 then nah, no chance. Haven't heard of any airline lashing the cash to buy new CVR's and mod a/c to take them when it is not mandated by the CAA/FAA (same as most other mods these days).

"Do you think the crew could have opened the emergency hydraulics panel and attached the pump handle and then maybe manually pumped the gear down before they landed at ABZ."
Yep, I'm sure they could have. IMHO though, I think the gear probably extended in the normal fashion assuming there was no damage to the extend/retract system from the alleged wheels up landing or belly scrape. If it didn't extend normally then I'm sure the free falled or pumped it down (gear was down at ABZ, wasn't it).

Disclaimer: Since this is the Rumour and News forum I feel free to express my opinion in a blame free environment and all I have written above is based on the sage posts of others more informed and in the know than me. Flame away to your hearts content.

Strepsils

1st Nov 2006, 23:11

The only reason I can think of for diverting to ABZ in this case is that the crew really thought they had a gear problem. However, Wick is more than long enough and has the required fire cover to cope with such a situation so why was ABZ necessary? Eng cover maybe?
I've also heard that there is a fault/feature/set of circumstances on the Jetstream that can result in three greens without the gear being down, is this correct?
Either way, I'm still struggling to comprehend how the crew could not have felt the prop strike on the runway. And if they had, why cross the water to ABZ with a damaged prop, and with it still running!

ReliablEngine

19th Feb 2008, 06:59

Just noticed renewed interest in L188 Electra (N285F), landing at Shannon with gear up - and there really are some inaccuracies being postolated on the pprune pages! :=
How do I know? 'Cos I was one of the six people on board that morning, so rudely wakened when the normal landing noises became suddenly much louder and there was suddenly a whole lot more activity on the flight deck than usual...:uhoh:
Yes, it was a Renown a/c, leased to Channex.
No, it was not an all-American crew - I was the Channex Ground engineer flying with the a/c from CGN, via DUB to SNN on a misty Monday morning.
Yes, the drivers forgot to put the sticky-downie bits in the correct position for landing.:rolleyes:
Yes, the #2 prop hit the ground first, followed very shortly afterwards by the #3 - but much harder. So much so that the prop, gearbox and half the engine parted company with its nacelle and ended up in a farmer's field. In so doing, the shattered #3 prop passed parts of itself through the nearby #4 and the fuselage - severing most of the underfloor cable looms in the process and providing an instant outflow valve...
Though our intrepid drivers didn't know that at the time, and promptly took to the air on (effectively), one good engine.:D
I could go on, but not here (it gets more exciting/terrifying, depending on where one was sitting that day...), though if anyone really wants to know the whole amazing story...wait for the book!
Suffice to say, were it not for a single strand of electric string, I wouldn't be writing this now.:)

Anon,

ReliablEngine:ok: