CORK - 4

[brian_dromey]

Mod note. Continuation of the Cork thread. Previous thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236710


Whats going on @ EICK at the mo....I just dont understand. About six months-to a year- ago the route announcements were arriving thick and fast. Now its nothing but bad news....or no news.

Has the new terminal and its associated stresses caused the team on teh hill to loose the plot? Look at the advertising, its rubbish...

I saw an ad for Galway Airport in the Cork Indo this week, and they were able to inform all and sundry of their new routes....and how they ahve "Ireland and the UK covered"

Hmmm....methinks its time to get over the terminal and get on with finding new arilines and routes. BE, LS, RE, U2, FR, EI, AZ, LH, BA, CO, DL ANYBODY, to ANYWHERE, there are loads of routes that would be viable...Im sick of listing them.

Oh and while the're on the phone they might give John A Woods a shout as well...several hundred square meteres of concrete(and a covered walkway!) wouldn't go astray either.

[Rallye EI-BFP]

The likes of BAW and AZA shouldnt be hard to come by......SK either.


The thing with Cork is, its not Ryanair that will chase these lads, its Aer Lingus! Theyre just as bad.......remember what they did to that nice little airline called jetmagic??

[Eh Hello?]

Rallye EI-BFP

What - did EI sit on top of Cork to Belfast, London City, Liverpool or Brussels, their "flagship" routes? Don't kid yourself that anything other than Jet Magic themselves led to the demise of Jet Magic. JM could have worked with the right network and launch timing - presumptions about when the Embraer 135 would be ready for London City, totally dreadful estimates of demand on Cork Brussels and assuming Arran would walk away from Edinburgh were all contributing factors, but overall the financial planning and cash burn did the damage.

[ryan2000]

Cork will find it very difficult to get any continental airlines now that FR and EI have a base there. They can pounce at anytime and undermine a new route.

The sharp increase in airport charges was a massive blunder and is probably the biggest factor in the decline of growth since April.

Cork has a state of the art terminal but it's not Heathrow Dublin or Schiphol and airlines will not fly there unless its costs and charges are competitive.

The CAA should take a close look at their costs and make whatever changes are neccessary.

[shannon55]

Hi im a first time user so it may take me a while to get into the swing of things!

With regard to continental european airlines flying into Cork, I think an Air Baltic ,twice weekly (possibly) to Riga could be on the cards. With LAL after announcing there Vilnius- Shannon route, I do believe there is also a market for this type of service?????

Also, with regard to USA flights, I think AA to boston or Delta Airways to JFK are the most likely routes. I doubt Continental would risk diluting their loads on their Shannon-Newark route.

[fonz77]

I was looking at flying to dub from Cork on Ryanair, 99c each way didnt sound to bad.
But the ticket ends up at 46 euros (credit card charge no included) at the end with taxes and charges.
Cork Airport wont be long making up the debt with those prices or conversly getting more in debt due to loss of pax due to high charges.

[Tom the Tenor]

The last easyJet flight from Cork has just departed off Cork's runway 35 returning to London Gatwick as the EZY788. The flight is being flown by Airbus A319 G-EZEK.

A bad night for Cork Airport. easyJet and Loganair both gone within a week or so of each other.

Adieu, easyJet.

[shannon55]

I would hope that ,once Ryanair and CAA sort out their differences (Re:costs), Ryanair would see sense and open a ORK-PIK route and, if ryanair don't do it, then Aer Arann (given that they already operate to PIK from donegal) would seize the oppertunity.;)
Not sure would that affect their Edinburgh loads though.:ugh:

[Rallye EI-BFP]

Delta....absolutely. They are losing so much money....they will start any route i spose...

Their B763's would be ideal, although the Song B757s have been reabsorbed so they could be used (are they ETOP's?). All the B762's are to go....some to freighter conversion I understand.

With regards to EZY... Shannon still has a LGW flight showing for tommorow? Or else they have forgotten to remove it from the system :ugh:

[shannon55]

ok It did slip my mind that Delta's, like Continental's, existing SNN/DUB-New York routes would be affected:\ , so that might just leave AA with a B757 although given the fact they cancelled a similar service to Newcastle which, if im not mistaken, would have had a larger catchment area, this may be a tad optimistic:hmm:

[840]

When (if? :eek:) open skies come in, I'd imagine that a few of those airlines won't have a Shannon service to dilute. In fact Cork might make a decent use of a freed up rotation.

For the record, my money is on Continental with Aer Lingus possibly starting as a reaction later.

[shannon55]

True, but I read a newspaper article on Delta Airlines when they started up their SNN/DUB/JFK route and from that article it seemed they were comitted to Shannon and I do believe continental are happy with their SNN services too....so AA maybe?:confused:

[asianfly]

The inadequacies of the new airport have been getting alot of play in the press and radio in Cork recently. My own experience of using the airport is that working trollies are hard to come by. The followring article was in the Irish Independent today.

Airport denies claims of trolley shortage

JUST 400 trolleys are available for passengers flying to and from Cork Airport, despite the addition of a €160m terminal.

A spokesman for the airport has defended the low numbers available, even though there has been a 12pc increase in passengers numbers this year to three million.

However workers say their "hearts are broken" with passengers complaints about the shortfall.

"We're satisfied that there are sufficient trolleys in place," said marketing director Kevin Cullinane.

"As soon as passengers finish with them we have service personnel to bring them back to the terminal."

Despite the claims that the service is adequate, some passengers were not happy with their experiences at the airport.

Adrian Moloney from Gort, Co Galway, said problems for their party began before they departed for Tenerife but were compounded by confusion and delays on their return.

"I informed the Aer Rianta member of staff at the information desk about the delay in trying to get a trolley and her response was, 'we have had four flights arriving at the same time'," he said.

Edel Kennedy

[N by NW]

Is the FR takeover bid a worry for ORK?

Early days yet as the competition authorities would need to examine the bid but should FR gain a controlling interest in EI, will they downgrade EI services at ORK in order to boost their yields at SNN?

ORK management should preempt this and attract a broader range of airlines at the airport in order to prevent over reliance on the shamrock.

While most speculators believed that EI would downgrade their transatlantic services in SNN in the next few years to the possible advantage of ORK, an FR controlled EI might see the advantage of retaining transatlantic services at SNN to feed into their expanding shorthaul services.

Any thoughts?

[ryan2000]

The problem is that airlines like AZ, IB, LH,etc have no interest in Cork Airport.

Other low costs carriers will be very cautious after the Easyjet experience.


I agree that Ryanair will almost certainly try to boost their low yield flights at SNN and Cork people have travelled there in their tens of thousands for years if it meant saving a few bob (euro since 2002).

Huge challenges facing Cork now.

[fanatic1]

'Cork Airport Flying low, with with rock bottom passenger figures,' will be the new slogan for Cork!

I mean it, if ryanair downgrade EI's services at Cork I'll shoot Michael O' Leary.

We're doomed.

[brian_dromey]

I mean it, if ryanair downgrade EI's services at Cork I'll shoot Michael O' Leary.
We're doomed.

In fairness fanatic, thats a bit of an overreaction. No one will reduce EIs services at ORK, for one because the yield and loads are very good, and theres no competition on most routes. Why would MOL(or anyone else) open Cork up to extra competition? Its a cosy little duo-ploy at the moment, and it looks like staying that way.

Indeed I would expect that FR and EI are looking into expanding at ORK, FR certinly would base extra a/c at EICK if the price was right, and its no secret that EI may well base a fifth a320 at Cork in the near future.

[Rallye EI-BFP]

The problem is the price is not right for RYR at Cork.

Ryanair are very happy with Shannon and wish to keep it that way.

T/A flights with EIN ex Cork will be very restricted, not just due runway but due to other restrictions and stresses that would be placed on the 330's as if they are not stressed enough.

[840]

I still can't see the takeover happening, but on the assumption that it does...

It could be looked at as an opportunity as much as a threat. Cork would have more based aircraft than Shannon and becomes a bigger priority for Ryanair. It would be challenging for the airport nonetheless.

As for other points made. The only possibilities I can see for European flag carriers are SN Brussels restarting Brussels and Lufthansa to Frankfurt. Cork doesn't feature for others. Admittedly, if Ryanair really started acting the bollocks and withdrew from Amsterdam after a takeover, KLM would be onto the route like a shot, but would serve it more frequently with smaller aircraft.

A more practical option is to woo Air Berlin.

Transatlantic? Leaving aside any takeover, EI won't look at it until someone else does. A parallel taxiway would probably be required first too.

[shannon55]

'IF' Ryanair do complete the takeover...its not going to change the charges that CAA charge the airlines so it's very doubtful that RYR are going to launch any major expansion at ORK in the near future. SNN is ticking over quite nicely for them and I think RYR will concentrate most of their south-west Ireland Growth in SNN . However, there is some routes that RYR and ORK could make a mint on such as ORK-PIK and I do hope that CAA lower their charges for ORK's sake as the airport has a lot of potential.

I agree completly with the previous post about possible new airlines/routes. Lufthansa (cityline maybe???) with an early morning (over-nighter??) CRJ200 to FRA could be a success and also Air Berlin could exploit some of the low-cost potential that ORK has that Ryanair, to date, have not taken advantage of.;)

[Rallye EI-BFP]

Shannon55-

RYN are an american airline operating B757's and B737's
RYR is the Irish one

Careful with those :bored: :bored: :bored:

[shannon55]

Whoops!:O Thanks Rallye EI-BFP!:D

[Tom the Tenor]

Doubt if Air Berlin or Lufthansa will take too much interest in Cork now that easyJet have been shown the road and as is likely CSA will be gone too from next January so it is very hard to see any European airline ever having any interest again in Cork especially when at a mere whim Ryanair can throw on an almost competing route from a European base if they have a mind to with a few FREE - just pay taxes & charges type fares and you can kiss goodbye to your Air Berlins, Lufthansas, easyJets etc, etc.

Nah, as long as there are streels of supposedly loyal Cork folk willing to traipse their way up along the Mallow Road at dawn to Shannon to save tuppence to fly with Ryanair because of the curious way the taxes and charges are fixed so low on lots of flights ex Shannon the home airport at Cork has not got a prayer and more so if local charges are set so much higher than in Shannon as well as those in Dublin too for that matter.

Not that the Cork branch of the DAA care much anyway as they are all the one happy family with their sister airports in Shannon and Dublin just like it was in the old Aer Rianta. What's in a name? Same ol' ducking and diving.

The golden age is on it's last legs at Cork Airport. If Cork does get another EI Airbus that could be her lot for a long, long time to come and if Ryanair achieve their 50% plus controlling interest in Aer Lingus they will do everything to fill their Shannon aeroplanes first and if that means killing off Cork routes and aeroplanes that is what will happen.

And yes, the Shannon stopver and the overall dark culture behind it is still showing it's sinister machinations through all these recent hectic developments, you can be sure of it!

[Rallye EI-BFP]

Well said.

[N by NW]

Not sure about the Cork folk traipsing to SNN

Attitude from people I've met who have travelled to SNN seems to be 'once is enough' - four hour round trip; four in the morning start to catch early flights out of SNN; cost of petrol and parking at SNN when a taxi ride or lift from relative would suffice for ORK and all for a short-hop trip.

[Rallye EI-BFP]

Well there is a choice between an early morning flight and evening flight with some flights.....therefore.....

[Charlie Roy]

From June 2007 Katowice will increase to 4xweekly :ok:

Times still are the best though...

[en2r]

Charlie Roy

Has anyone travelled on Wizzair from Cork. Do you know how the service is doing? What are loads like? I guess they must be doing OK if they're adding a fourth weekly flight as well as the new route to Gdansk.

[Tom the Tenor]

The mother of a Polish woman I know in the job has travelled on the Wizz from Katowice. The family is from Krakow so it will be interesting to see if they try Central Wings from November. I know that there is a gang of them coming to Cork for Christmas so it will be good to see some Polish traffic coming this way for the holiday. Christmas in Cork - what more could anyone ever ask for as a present!

Good news to report is that Aer Arann are increasing the frequency of Saturday and Sunday flights to Dublin from two to three from the start of the winter schedule. Best of luck of them and it would suggest Aer Arann are not too concerned by Ryanair increasing frequency on their Dublin flights from three to four a day for the winter. If anything, it looks like the two services are complementing each other much to Cork's delight. Who knows, Cork may yet achieve her 3 million pax for 2006! Wonder if RE might like to sneak in and go to Prestwick a few times a week ahead of talk about EI or FR going to GLA or PIK or, are they happy as they are with their Edinburgh frequencies?

Ryanair's launch of the Madrid-Shannon service looks at face value like having a go at Cork and her new Aer Lingus sevice to the Spanish capital. Starting from zero to so much capacity to Madrid from both Cork and Shannon is frankly very amusing and it sure does make you think if Ryanair have an axe to grind against Cork and more so if you consider how disinterested Ryanair themselves appear to be in starting any new routes from Cork.

However, is it in some ways not unlike Aer Lingus and the North Atlantic ex Cork and the excuses put forward there for inaction. Excuses like how it would split the yield between the two airports if there were flights from both Shannon and Cork to America? Perhaps it is the same with Ryanair, maybe it would be too high a price to pay to start more flights from Cork as the yields might become just too diluted on their profit margains ex Shannon as there would almost certainly be a need to have at least some shared routes with any new ones from Cork?

[CCR]

TTT, the only competition between Cork and Shannon airports are for customers from the adjoining counties in Munster. Cork people overwhelmingly use Cork airport.:ugh:

[ryan2000]

Heard that Cork may get its first Eastern as distinct from Central European destination in early 2007.

[840]

Care to define Easter Europe for us:)

Would I be correct in thinking that the Baltic States count?

[ryan2000]

Baltic states count. I genuinely don't know which city but I did here that it's an eastern european destination. Of course it could be Poznan or Lodz as they are probably as viable as Warsaw, Gdansk, Kracow etc.

[en2r]

Care to define Easter Europe for us:)

Would I be correct in thinking that the Baltic States count?
It's probably Riga with Air Baltic. They made a special flight to Cork over the August Bank Holiday and there was speculation of a service being launched then. The only thing is that Ryanair would probably launch a competing service from Shannon just to spite Cork

[daz211]

Well we all know what will happen if RIGA is the destination,
"what that coming over the hill is it a monster" no just MOL in drag:E

[Charlie Roy]

Interesting article about the airport's "sports" bar:

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/story.asp?j=4794&cat=news

[840]

Any queuing problems are because there aren't enough check-in desks used per flights rather than because there aren't enough check-in desks. You will frequently see a long queue, with 20 empty desks. But then fares would go up and passengers would have something else to complain about.

That said, there also seems to be a shortage of Aer Lingus self-service check-in machines (at least during the 5:30am-7am rush). I don't know how much they cost, but a few more would be helpful. Of course, there would be no point if online check-in comes on stream soon though.

Any word on the potential EI pilot base in Cork?

[en2r]

Any queuing problems are because there aren't enough check-in desks used per flights rather than because there aren't enough check-in desks. You will frequently see a long queue, with 20 empty desks. But then fares would go up and passengers would have something else to complain about.

That said, there also seems to be a shortage of Aer Lingus self-service check-in machines (at least during the 5:30am-7am rush). I don't know how much they cost, but a few more would be helpful. Of course, there would be no point if online check-in comes on stream soon though.

Any word on the potential EI pilot base in Cork?

There are 4 Aer Lingus fast pass check-in machines in Cork. I recently passed through Heathrow where there were only 3 machines even though there are more than Aer Lingus 20 flights a day so Cork isn't doing too badly. Personally I never queue to check in for Aer Lingus Flights. Whatever queue there is at the machines it is usually only a fraction of that at the check-in desks. As for the pilot base that will probably come whenever Aer Lingus base a much needed fifth aircraft at Cork

[840]

There are 4 Aer Lingus fast pass check-in machines in Cork. I recently passed through Heathrow where there were only 3 machines even though there are more than Aer Lingus 20 flights a day so Cork isn't doing too badly.

I suppose the difference is that the flights are better staggered at Heathrow, whereas first thing in the morning they have 4 A320s going out of Cork in a 1 hour period. But this is the only time of day that it's a problem.

As I understand it, Internet check-in isn't too far off now, so the investment probably isn't worthwhile.

[shannon55]

There is too many self check in kiosks in Dublin ! It wouldn't be the end of the world if they sent two or three down to Cork. There should be at least 2 per an aircraft !
That's true....there is a load of them in DUB and anytime I've visited DUB, while some of them are constantly in use, there always is a fair amount of them not being used.

[ryan2000]

Unfortunately the design of the new terminal took no account of the radical changes made in the airline industry over the last 5 years.

On a more positive note the current EI booking engine for 2007 shows a need for 5 aircraft at Cork which could see a pilot base being established there. They must be paying The Clarion a small fortune for hotel beds at the moment.

[brian_dromey]

First of all, aren't there are 6 self-service positions at ORK? In the old terminal there were three facing both directions, making 6. And I'm prety sure all of tehm came over? Maybe EI is currently painting the red eysores green?(they have at DUB), and very nice they look too!

As for a/c no.5 at ORK, how does the schedule show the need for five, at the moment a carbon copy of the 2005 schedule is in the booking engine,FCO/ALC still at 2x weekly. Its clearly only partly loaded yet, as destinations like ACE and TFS are in there, just using the winter schedules at the mo. That could be an indication that there will be schedule modifications, surely they would have just loaded last years schedule otherwise? With the current timetable for summer '07 there will be less capicity on almost every route than in winter 06/07! :eek:

It's pretty obvious that a fifth will join us at EICK, but is there any chance that EI will once again base an A321 @ ORK, I know they used to in the past, and only used it on LHR and charters. Surely the A321 would make sense on peak LHR services and to ACE/TFS/ALC, etc?

Guesses for new destinations? Definately some more UK? Double daily to AMS? More frequenct to CDG? Im still betting on CPH as well! Maybe a return to Milan as well.

[ryan2000]

Brian, the booking engine shows departures on SU and WE to WAW at 1530, FCO at 1500, LHR 1615, AMS 1710 and ALC at 1600. There also appears to be a better utilisation of exisiting aircraft eg ORK AMS ORK NCE ORK BCN ORK with later finishing times in the evening. At present 2 of the Cork based 320's do just 2 rotations per day which is very inefficent.

[brian_dromey]

ryan2000

WOOPS, sorry Ryan, I was looking at the Timetable, which shows a completely different story!

Yes two rotations is pretty poor, although if(hypothetically) you combine TFS/ACE with WAW on one airframe, there is not a whole lot you can do, except start earlier and finish later, squeezing in a quick hop over to the UK? I think EI needs more UK destinations to set airframe utilisation higher @ ORK. If you ever look at FR aircraft they generally fly to a mix of UK and EURO destinations throughout the day.

BTW have you seen the fares to WAW in July? over 580 rtn! Me think that the yield must be pretty good! a/c no five is a no brainer! It would appear thet yeild is pretty strong from ORK for summer '07.

[shannon55]

I'd say Glasgow is in with a shout as a new EI route from ORK. Given that Loganair/BA are off the route (not that that would have stopped EI if they'd wanted to operate this route in the past...A320 vs. SF340, only one winner there!).
It's also unlikely that RYR will launch a PIK service anytime soon either so EI would have the route to themselves.
Regarding a possible CPH route, have EI stopped their route from DUB to CPH?

[840]

They don't currently fly to Copenhagen from Dublin, although they have spoken about Scaninavia (although Denmark is not technically in Scandinavia :cool: ) as a potential area for expansion from Dublin.

If we see new Aer Lingus routes from Cork, I would expect one bucket and spade route and one Eastern Europe. Depending on aircraft utilisation, a quick hop to the UK (Manchester or Glasgow) or even western France (Rennes or Bordeaux) may also be possible.

I would expect any new routes to be destinations that are already served from Dublin.

[Charlie Roy]

840

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia
Denmark is part of Scandinavia.

[johnrizzo2000]

I think Glasgow or Manchester, and Riga. Budapest, Geneva and LasPalmas would all work aswell! Maybe new routes might be operated by DUB aircraft, like DUB-GVA-ORK-GVA-DUB?

[brian_dromey]

I think Glasgow or Manchester, and Riga. Budapest, Geneva and LasPalmas would all work aswell! Maybe new routes might be operated by DUB aircraft, like DUB-GVA-ORK-GVA-DUB?

Well the 713/714 do originate in LHR(I think these flights would be DUB-LHR-ORK-LHR-DUB), so I guess W patterns are not out of the question. So 4.5 320s are possible for ORK next summer.

I think MAN could be attractive to EI, but bmiBaby keep moving the flight around, so the timings could be a bit tricky. If it were done correctly the two carriers would operate at either ends of the day, thus offering day returns and cutting down on competition. I suppose 2x daily to MAN is a bt ambitious with the 320s! I think BHX might go daily as well. GLA is possible too....I think if they want to work their a/c a little harder @ ORK, they'll have to bring more UK destinations on-line.

By the way is there any news on how the LBA route is doing with RE? I hope they keep it up, otherwise Ill have to go through LHR or DUB again....:yuk: to come home from uni! Do RE actually have a/c based at ORK or do they rotate the aircraft around, doing W's and such? I cna't really tell to be honest!

[840]

840

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia
Denmark is part of Scandinavia.
Although the same article says

"Geographically the Scandinavian peninsula includes mainland Sweden and mainland Norway, and also a part of Finland, while the Jutland Peninsula includes mainland Denmark and a small part of Germany (Denmark has not included any territory on the Scandinavian Peninsula since the middle of the 17th century)."

I always learned that Scandinavia refered to the peninsular so that Denmark was a Nordic country and not a Scandinavian one. Not that it matters, as I implied in my earlier post, I'm sure Aer Lingus are including it.

By the way is there any news on how the LBA route is doing with RE? I hope they keep it up, otherwise Ill have to go through LHR or DUB again....:yuk: to come home from uni! Do RE actually have a/c based at ORK or do they rotate the aircraft around, doing W's and such? I cna't really tell to be honest!

Aer Arann have 2 aircraft based in Cork with a number of routes operated by aircraft on W patterns also. Haven't any info on numbers on LBA, but it should be showing up on the CAA stats soon, so we'd get a better idea.

From this end, I'd wondered about how successful the route could be given the proximity to Manchester, but if you think it's easier to fly through LHR or DUB, then presumably the overland to Manchester option isn't as practical as it appears on a map.

[ryan2000]

They may well decide to compete on BUD, Kracow and Manchester. RIGA must be a strong possibility if they open a new route given that Dublin has 3 carriers flying there. There's a large Latvian population in Munster.

They would also get incentives to operate there.

Vienna was another City that they looked at two years ago. Dubrovnik could be a dark horse. Looks as if they mighn't stay on TFS for the Summer although Budget Travel have dropped their weekly Charter from Cork for next summer presumably in the expectation that EI would continue to fly there.

[brian_dromey]

I'd wondered about how successful the route could be given the proximity to Manchester, but if you think it's easier to fly through LHR or DUB, then presumably the overland to Manchester option isn't as practical as it appears on a map.

To be honest I personally mix and match, depending on which fares and timings suit best, now though three of four viable routs home are not FR operated, so the chances of being able to avoid them are quite good!
for example my next trip home is LBA-LHR-ORK and home ORK-MAN. But the next time is LBA-ORK-MAN, it just depends on which routing gives me a short travle time and a good fare.
I have done ORK-DUB-LBA on a sun, now THAT was a tight connection(50mins!!!), only for web check-in Id still be in DUB!


... RIGA must be a strong possibility if they open a new route given that Dublin has 3 carriers flying there. There's a large Latvian population in Munster.

Vienna was another City that they looked at two years ago. Dubrovnik could be a dark horse. Looks as if they mighn't stay on TFS for the Summer although Budget Travel have dropped their weekly Charter from Cork for next summer presumably in the expectation that EI would continue to fly there.

Well wasn't there some noise about Air Baltic doing RGX? I would personally perfer to see someone like that operating these services, as it gives more choice and competition.(plus more liveries to look out at!:} )

Now that you say it TFS is likely to go, I think that it is just too long a sector for EI to operate from ORK, as it looks like they are quite keen to pack in as many destinations as possible this summer. Its more of a winter destination anyway, I feel? The only reason that ACE will stay is because Slattery's are using the service instead of chartering in an a/c. So the flights are maybe 30-50% full at this stage, and prob at quite a nice yield as well!

[fanatic1]

Eh, i'm pretty sure there is four. One for each aircraft. :)

[ryan2000]

Palma and Copenhagen have joined the list of possible new EI routes for 2007 at Cork.

The Spanish Airport is already served 6 times a week by various Charter operators so it would be no great surprise.

Copenhagen would be a bit surprising since EI do not serve it from Dublin.

However the airport marketing Dept. has been anxious to get a service to Scandanavia going as it is felt that it would generate new business rather than just dilute traffic on other routes.

EI might be the best prospect as SAS have never shown any interest in the provencial airports.

[840]

I haven't done this for a while, but these were the CAA provional stats for UK routes in September. Not all routes are listed

Belfast 3,504
Birmingham 10,991
Bristol 1,385
Cardiff 1,507
Edinburgh 4,177
Gatwick 31,309
Glasgow 831
Heathrow 34,200
Jersey 270
Liverpool 4,917
Manchester 6,830
Newcastle 3,045
Newquay 1,162
Southampton 1,385
Stansted 24,729

I think it demonstrates ho much Easyjet will be missed.

[MarkD]

re the DUB check-in kiosks above 1:1 - possibly due midday surge when a bunch of A330s are leaving?

[en2r]

840

I think it demonstrates ho much Easyjet will be missed.[/quote]
I'm surprised how well Birmingham is doing, with passenger numbers almost half that of Stansted. Its interesting to see that Gatwick had significantly more passengers than Stansted. Newcastle seems to be doing alright, the route would surely justify more than the two flights a week planned for the winter, especially since Bmibaby are cutting their 5 times weekly run to Durham Tees Valley

[eick320]

Just for the record there are 6 ssk's at cork ... and before mol got involved with ei the plan was for the pilot base to open xmas of this year,

[840]

Just for the record there are 6 ssk's at cork ...

I was going to post that very fact this morning.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say that there are a lot of unused machines in Dublin. Most times of day, you can go to Cork Airport and there is no shortage of machines. It's just during the early morning when all the flights are leaving at roughly the same time that there is a problem. I would imagine that the same thing occurs in Dublin at that time and as MarkD pointed out, there's also a period when the transatlantic flights are all leaving at roughly the same time.

before mol got involved with ei the plan was for the pilot base to open xmas of this year,

I'd be a bit disturbed if the Ryanair bid changed EI's business plans. If/when it is successful they can take it into account, but until then, they need to run the business in the best way they see fit, assuming it continues as an independent company.

[840]

Some good news over on the Newcastle thread with Jet2 going to 4x weekly for next summer

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2925749&postcount=86

[ryan2000]

One thing is certain, the practice of EI pilots staying in top class hotels when based in Cork will end if MOL gets control.

Glad to see it's likely to end in any event as it does add to the expense of operating out of Cork and make routes less profitable. I'm not blaming the pilots for this, its was just part of the culture of the company.

[asianfly]

More negative press coverage in the Irish Examiner re the new terminal at Cork

25 October 2006

Airport bosses face criticism over operations
By Eoin English
MANAGERS at Cork Airport will be asked to defend operations at their new terminal building following a wave of public criticism.

The South West Regional Authority (SWRA) agreed yesterday to invite airport management to the next meeting of its airport’s consultative committee to discuss a range of issues.

The authority, which advises on development issues and strategic planning matters for Cork and Kerry, also plans to invite the chief executive of the Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) to attend amid concerns that the Cork Airport Authority (CAA) still does not have enough control over operations at Cork Airport.

SWRA members raised a number of concerns about operations at the airport during their monthly meeting yesterday.

It follows the publication of a number of letters in the Irish Examiner in recent weeks from members of the public unhappy with having to walk in the rain from the new terminal building to aircraft parked some distance away.

Councillor Kevin Murphy (FG) said he knew of a woman who damaged her arm after she was knocked down by a gust of wind while walking across the apron in the rain to a waiting aircraft.

She was drenched by the time she got onto the plane, he said.

However, when she got to her destination in Spain, she was able to use an airbridge to get to the terminal building, he said.

Mr Murphy, whose son uses a wheelchair, also criticised the way disabled passengers were being treated during boarding and disembarkation, especially during wet weather.

Cllr Derry Canty (FG) criticised airlines for not using the only airbridge which has been installed at the terminal.

SWRA director John McAleer said Ryanair has no problem using airbridges at Malaga airport.

Cllr Tom O’Driscoll (FF) said as far as he was aware, the airbridge at Cork has not been used since the new terminal opened.

He singled out Aer Lingus, one of the biggest carriers at the airport, for not using the facility.

Meanwhile, Cllr Jerry Buttimer said residents in Cork’s western suburbs have expressed concerns at an increase in the number of flights over the area.

SWRA chairman Michael Connor again called on the Government to honour its pledge on the airport’s debt issue.

[brian_dromey]

There are issues at Cork, few of which can be directly blamed on the CAA, the terminal departures area is designed badly, as it is far too narrow. I think ORK was used as a learnging curve for Dublins T2 and future developments. It cost far too much for what was actually recieved, but I still think that the airbridges should have been installed.

To be honest I think that the debt sutuation is still a huge problem, and hinders the ability of the CAA to fix some of the smaller issues with the terminal and to make attractive offers to new airlines. I would personally be far more worried about the lack of new routes and carriers than the use of airbridges. When did we last hear a new route announcement?, or the arrival of a new airline?. About 12 months before the terminal opened the routes were comming thick and fast, but now there is a deathly scilence. I can only come to the conclusion that the maagment have been too concerned wth the opening of the terminal and the associated debt issues, as nothing else has changed since then.

YES there is a shiny new terminal, but it needs to be paid for, so I suggest the airport should shout, scram and give itself every possible oppertunity to entice airlines like SAS, LH, bmi,TAP, Spanair, there is plenty of room for a star alliance member or five @ ORK, AF/KL wouldnt do anyharm either(WX maybe?). Also think that flyBE could also be enticed. We need new airlines people, otherwise EI, RE nad FR will dominate. That would not be good news at all.

[fanatic1]

Brian Dromey

The last new airline announcement was about two months ago...Fly Gibraltar will start in 2007.

Other than that, I aggree with you whole heartedly with what you say. It really is pointless us all posting it on pprune. We should write a letter or something.

Come on lads (and lassies)!

[ryan2000]

The new Polish routes will not compensate for the loss of Easyjet and CSA particularly during the peak periods. Reduction in flights by BMI Regional, Loganair and Ryanair will also impact on growth

There has also been a subtle but significant reduction in I.T business throughout 2006.

If things stay as they are then passenger throughput will reach 3 million in 2006 but significantly fall next year.

Lets start writing to the Irish Examiner. Too many of the letters published on it are focusing on the personal experiences of passengers getting wet etc.

The broader issues must be highlighted. Cork is in deep deep trouble if decisions aren't made soon.

[brian_dromey]

[/B]The last new airline announcement was about two months ago...Fly Gibraltar will start in 2007.

Hmm....flyGib eh? While that would be great I really dint think that this airline will fly. It is supposed to sub work from Astraeus, but they know nothing about it, so I dunno.

Anyways a 1x/2x service to a sunshine destination is about as useful as half a horse, what we need is high frequency lift to major UK and EU destinations on an at least 2x daily. One daily flight is good, but rubish for day trips. How can ORK support 4x daily to dublin and 8x daily to LON on 738/320s and not be able to support 2x daily to MAN/BHX/GLA on at least an ATR?

[en2r]

brian_dromey

There are two flights a day to Manchester on Sundays until December, however flying from Cork you only have a little over 2 hours in Manchester. Manchester passengers on the other hand have 7 and a half hours. I do think Manchester could support two flights daily, especially since Ryanair downgraded Liverpool to four per week as well as the fact that there are only 3 flights per week from Shannon. As for Glasgow,I'd say it would be better to try and get an airline to operate to Glasgow first before talking about having 2 flights per day. You can however go on daytrips to Edinburgh and Amsterdam with Aer Arann and Aer Lingus. Each however only operates twice daily on four days of the week

[eick320]

Since sunday last the CAA have hired 2 coaches to ferry pax to/from stands 5 down etc. I know this is a hugh step on their behalf but can you just imagine the cost involved in having 2 buses on standby awaiting flts. As far as i understand the CAA make their descision based on the weather forecast the night before and then order the private contractor, from what i have seen it looks like 1 mini bus ie. 27 or 30 seater and 1 larger bus approx 50 seater. If only they had built a covered walk-way !!!!!!

[fanatic1]

Really, thats great! It won't be long before they get two of there own buses.

It was a good thing that that woman broke her arm! (sorry :( )

This is gonna be great. In the amstel tradition. LOL

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, it is getting to look more like that there will be no 5th Aer Lingus A320 at Cork next summer and no new routes for now after next week's start of Madrid, Prague and Lanzarote. The overlaps that were in the schedule that would have suggested another aircraft are being tightened up and it looks like we will instead have four fully tasked A320s next summer. Time for EI to consolidate on their position at Cork as a 5th unit would have meant a whole host of new routes and the risk to overall yield management that might have triggered - just look on it as a wise regrouping of the business model for Cork?

Obviously, a tad disappointing for Cork that it looks like there will be no strictly new EI routes next summer but overall the business model appears to be fairly sound especially now in the fluid circumstances of the Ryanair 20 per cent holding etc.

So, what about Spanair for PMI and SAS for CPH? It would be great!

Anyway, never a dull moment at Cork! Are ye jazzin' this weekend?

[fanatic1]

[COLOR=Black]Excel Airways announced that they will start charter flights from Cork & Dublin to Lanzarote and Bulgaria. The flights will begin as of May 1st 2007. Excel Airways is the UK's biggest charter airline, and will look at long haul flights from Cork in 2008 which could possibly be to Florida. They will fly twice a week from Cork using a brand new Boeing 737-800.



Looking good for Cork!

[ultranet]

i am new here.. need some time to hook up.....

[840]

Well, it is getting to look more like that there will be no 5th Aer Lingus A320 at Cork next summer and no new routes for now after next week's start of Madrid, Prague and Lanzarote. The overlaps that were in the schedule that would have suggested another aircraft are being tightened up and it looks like we will instead have four fully tasked A320s next summer. Time for EI to consolidate on their position at Cork as a 5th unit would have meant a whole host of new routes and the risk to overall yield management that might have triggered - just look on it as a wise regrouping of the business model for Cork?

I remember making similar comments, myself, last year and it turned out that it was an initial schedule because the new aircraft wasn't arriving until the end of June.

At present, neither of the routes to The Canaries are bookable and Malaga is at only 4x per week. I'd be surprised if it stayed that way.

[ryan2000]

There is increasing speculation that EI have dropped plans to add a 5th 320 to their Cork based fleet. Up to last weekend it was assumed that the plans were going ahead. A bit puzzling as standing still is only going to play into Ryanairs hands.

[840]

ryan2000

Considering the pressure that their Dublin routes are under from Ryanair it would be surprising. Maybe the strategy is to fight fire with fire up there.

How many A320s do they have scheduled for delivery next year? 2?

[MarkD]

jethros says 2 in June

[Rallye EI-BFP]

en2r:

Ryanair fly daily from Shannon to Liverpool

However if you mean Shannon-Manchester that is indeed 3 a week but will be increased to 5 a week next summer. BA Citie Express flew daily with a DHC last year (as they did to Cork)

[Charlie Roy]

Shannon-Manchester that is indeed 3 a week but will be increased to 5 a week next summer

Do you know of other Ryanair plans for Shannon? What's your source regarding the increase in flights to Manchester?

[en2r]

en2r:

Ryanair fly daily from Shannon to Liverpool

However if you mean Shannon-Manchester that is indeed 3 a week but will be increased to 5 a week next summer. BA Citie Express flew daily with a DHC last year (as they did to Cork)
Oh ya I was talking about Manchester, I just phrased the post badly

[Tom the Tenor]

The Mrs and I have just made it back to Cork from Stansted aboard this evening's FR907. Very poor viz at Cork for most of the day meant it was low visibility approaches all round and I understand a lot of Aer Arann flights had to divert to Kerry along with a pair of bmi baby flights to Shannon along with at least one Aer Lingus flight from Birmingham.

On the final approach to Cork our Captain on the FR907 advised us we were Number 2 to another (Futura) flight for an autoland which meant a CATII approach to 17. The Futura made it in ahead of us but shortly after the RVR dropped to 250 metres and our Ryanair flight had to go around. The thing is as we climbed away you could see that the weather was fairly clear to the south of the field and it is obvious the blinking stuff hangs right over the airport and runway at Cork!

The flight took up what was a fairly northerly track following a right hand turn out after the go around and I was fearing the worst anticipating a diversion to snn but then the Captain updated the cabin we were to try one more approach at Cork and if that failed we were off to Shannon. Boy, you should have heard the sighs of resignation and angst amongst the passengers when the words diversion and Shannon were mentioned!

However, as we came down the ILS again to 17 the RVR was back up to 300 metres and there were good breaks in the cloud just north of the Bishopstown suburb before once again entering the soup as we approached the field but this time, thank God, our luck held and we touched down in low visibility to the fullsome applause of the entire cabin! However, the applause quietened quickly due to the noise of the reverse thrust and fairly strong braking that sure got people's attention again! Anyway, we were back on terra firma at Cork safe and sound even if the backtrack seemed to me to be a little wobbly but then again I was fairly jittery myself after the experience!

This ILS business has to be sorted out once and for all at Cork. Firstly, why are there no intermediate RVR readings at 275 metres at Cork between 250 metres and 300 metres? Everywhere else has it so why not Cork? Why is this? This measurement would be bound to help crews in getting another indication of how the trends are going with the RVRs.

Secondly, the pressure must be increased to have a CATIIIA ILS at Cork to finally resolve this long outstanding matter. We must take it for granted that FR and EI pilots all receive routine training and qualification to CATIII standard. It is high time that the people in charge at the Cork Airport Authority must be brought to book and made accountable and quizzed why there appears to be so little obvious local support for a CATIII project at our local aiport which the CAA are more than happy to remind us all of it's now so called international standards.

By the way, the EI727 from BHX never did make it back to Cork in spite of two tries so Sunday evening's EI844 to Schiphol was eventually due to operate from Shannon at 2345 hours. Imagine how people aboard that flight must feel tonight and the '845 pax at SPL!

[ryan2000]

Tom , I doubt if the CAA have even thought about CAT3 never mind discussed it.

In any event it's a matter for the Shannon based IAA to make a decision on it as they control navigational equipment.

Why don't Aerlingus and Ryanair start talking about it instead of leaving it to PPrune subscribers.

The reality is that Cork Management are immobilised due to the continued indecision about the debt.

Of course Aer Arann and BMI Baby pilots continue to live in CAT1 land at least as far as Cork is concerned.. They've been lucky with the exceptionaly dry summer this year but by the law of averages they can look forward to many diversions in the months ahead.

[Handover]

Just a small correction Ryan 2000. The IAA's H.Q is in Hawkins St. Dublin 2. They also have nothing to do with the decision to install Cat III unless in a purely advisory capacity. The decision is made by the airport authority. The IAA then monitor and maintain the equipment.
While no doubt there are quite a lot of diversions from Cork i genuinely don't think in terms of the amount of diversions that the cost could be justified. I would prefer to see the money being invested in increasing the ramp capacity, even if only to facilitate executive jets. This is an area that has expanded hugely in Shannon and it would be good to see Cork getting a share of this lucrative pie.

[ryan2000]

Point taken. However in the past management have frequently pointed the finger at the IAA in relation to CAT 3 in the same way as they point to Servisair and Aerlingus when passengers complain about walking to remote stands.

Do the IAA not get the revenue from ILS approaches and pay for its maintenance? Anyway it's not going to happen unless Ryanair and Aerlingus make a big issue of it but LCC's are finding diversions increasingly cumbersome and unacceptable.

Executive jets are restricted from parking at Cork due to the fact that the stands there are marked out for medium sized aircraft. If 2 Learjets arrive they are each given a 737 type stand.

These are needed by commercial aircraft so most of the biz jet opertors are told to get lost! It's amazing that an airport that's in serious debt can afford to turn down so much business. Whatever happened to the proposed development at the 40 acres? Why are Southair not allowed develop a General Aviation facility?

Whether it's the IAA or Cork's OCC that are responsible for this I'm not sure but Kerry and Shannon are the main benefactors.

[EI-MICK]

Cork has fallen a good bit since maybe 2003/04 when new routes were being introduced,do the management have a clue? or are they holding for an announcement on the debt issue,calamity cullen commented on the debt issue got ''sidetracked'' due to the unveiling of a new terminal at dublin,what a disgrace,that is a few years down the line while cork (who actually have a new terminal) suffers from his favouritism,he really hasn't a clue.

ps. i dont think the CAA even know what CAT3 ILS is.

also work started recently on the new shannon tunnel.

[fanatic1]

......also work started recently on the new shannon tunnel........

Whats this about a shannon tunnel?

[Handover]

Just in reply to the question on Cat III. The airport are responsible for the maintenance of the generators the lighting systems etc. The IAA in turn monitor the signals at both the Controllers and Engineering positions. The fee for Cat III is taken through landing charges and terminal charges as opposed to enroute charges which are given directly to the IAA. The airport authority then reimburses the IAA for providing the service. Hope that clarifies things a little bit.
The reason i mentioned the exec. traffic is that in relation to the rest of the ramp exec aircraft take up very little room and they can also be facilitated on areas with a lower PCN no. which in turn are cheaper to build. For example in Shannon two remote stands (21 and 22) were basically created out of nothing and are now constantly in use with quick turnaround refueling exec. jets.
Just in relation to the new Shannon tunnel don't worry it's not the underground link-up to Shannon's new terminal it is the tunnel that has commenced linking the Limerick by-pass and the dual carriageway to the airport and onwards to Galway etc!

[Tom the Tenor]

More ramp for bizjets at Cork? Sounds good to me - bring it on! I wonder would it ever be possible to work out a rough sum lost in potential income from overnight parking by some bizjets at Cork over the last few years? Might there have been enough for a covered walkway and an airbridge or two?

At the same time let us also revisit calls for a parallel taxiway to runway 17/35 at Cork. After the Futura landed last night ahead of our FR907 no doubt there were a few precious moments lost whilst the FUA backtracked the runway and whilst not knowing for sure if it was then that the RVR dropped back down from 300 metres to 250 metres which triggered our flight's go around with all it's added costs to Ryanair bourne in the end by long suffering Cork Airport passengers. So, what are the chances in the current market conditions of this part of the debate being reintroduced as a hot topic at board level at the HQ of the Dublin Airport Authority and exactly how much say does the Cork board actually have or are they sterile and is their status only that of a puppet regime for their Dublin Airport masters?

Of course, you cant really say current market conditions either, can you? That implies a competitive level playing field which there is certainly not as the more favoured status of both Dublin and Shannon is plainly obvious especially so considering the high number of summer flights to North America that both these airports enjoy with Cork having nil. Now, there is to be a new pier, a new terminal and a new runway for Dublin Airport along with a supporting metro from Swords to the city centre and a convenient tunnel in the Limerick area which just so happens will be sweetly positioned for Shannon to attract more passengers from the Munster and North Cork hinterlands.

The Government, the Civil Service and the DAA seem to allow Cork so little competitive edge in airports development to such an extent that, for example, even something really simple like intermediate RVR readings seem not to be possible at Cork even though they were so in the past.

[en2r]

Centralwings begin operations at Cork tomorrow with 9.20 from Wroclow. The plane then flies to Krakow and back before returning to Wroclow in the evening. Lets hope these routes are successful and there is an increase from the current two weekly

[orkpilot]

TOT
with regard to intermediate RVR readings at 25 meter intervals, the majority of european airports if not all of them require a RVR value rounded up to nearest 50 or 100. For example Rwy 17 at Cork for a Cat 1 approach you need a value of 650meters touchdown to commence an approach. For a Cat2 approach on the same runway you need 300meters.
Having a reading at-75 wont make any difference at all.

[Angry Rebel]

New route to Manchester ex ORK announced this morning and increased frequency to LHR, Faro and Birmingham.

Not sure what frequencies all of those are but it's some good news at last.

[840]

With regards to the runway...

As I understand it, CAT III is impossible unless 17/35 is flattened. That's a pretty substantial engineering job and would require a period of runway closure (although I remember someone having the idea of building a new runway parallel to 17/35 and turning 17/35 into a taxiway). 07/25 isn't long enough to be used at present, so the first step would need to be to bring 07/25 up to the 2,000m mark.

What I'm really getting at here is that the upgrade of runways, taxiways and nav aids is an integrated project and not just a case of creating one of the improvements (another example is that a runway extension on 17/35 would be best done at the same time as the provision of a taxiway).

Unfortunately, such a plan would become very expensive and the government wouldn't be paying for it in a hurry.

[Charlie Roy]

I'm not impressed by Aer Lingus' attempts to thwart BMI Baby's presence in Cork.

Sure, you might think it's great to have Aer Lingus now flying from Cork to Manchester, but I would have considered this a looooong term priority of EI :(

In the short term it would have been more preferable that they'd introduce a new route to the likes of Glasgow, Frankfurt, Milan, Valencia...

We're still waiting :{

[daz211]

I wonder if RYR will add any new routes, ie ORK-MAN?

[VanBosh]

At first glance this EI expansion looks pretty significant but in reality its just 2 new routes as previously mentioned. Sure theyre increasing a lot of route frequencies but is this capacity just being pulled from elsewhere? Do they have a new plane coming in next summer?

I wonder if FR might begin to feel that EI are getting too strong in ORK and throw another plane down there and start a few shorter rotations like, PIK, MAN & a GRO or something?

[840]

At first glance this EI expansion looks pretty significant but in reality its just 2 new routes as previously mentioned. Sure theyre increasing a lot of route frequencies but is this capacity just being pulled from elsewhere? Do they have a new plane coming in next summer?

Indeed.

Currently, Malaga is showing at 2 rotations a week fewer than last summer and none of the flights to the Canaries are bookable. I haven't done any analysis of aircraft utilisation, so I don't know if this is likely to change.

According to MarkD's earlier post, Aer Lingus have two A320s arriving in June. Clearly one is going to Dublin.

One possibility I have mentioned before is that EI could operate more of the Heathrow flights as Ws out of Dublin, effectively freeing up 1/2 an aircraft for extra services out of Cork. It doesn't seem to be happening though.

[en2r]

Cork-Manchester makes no sense, considering that they could have had a monopoly on Cork-Glasgow. This is just one more example of Aer Lingus's efforts to drive out other airlines and to make Cork even more dependent on them. First there was Birmingham, then Prague and now Manchester. What next?

[johnrizzo2000]

en2r

I dont think EI's management have a serious plan to drive all airlines out of Cork. If they didnt think Manchester would make money, they wouldnt operate the route! If Glasgow had potential and could make money, they would operate it! Who knows, maybe its in the pipeline!

[840]

I just looked at the Aer Lingus Cork-Manchester flight there.

It appears to be operating with a Dublin-based aircraft on a W-pattern

And the days it doesn't operate are Monday and Friday, which I would have thought were the two busiest days of the week, but what do I know...

The fact it's a Dublin-based aircraft may go some way to explaining the apparently odd choice of Manchester as a destination.

[cesare.caldi]

Why Ryanair don't expand Cork base with new destinations to continental Europe?
They are only one plane based in Cork, a very small base for Ryanair-style...

[Charlie Roy]

I think many would pose the same question Cesare.

Ryanair are not happy to pay the high charges imposed by Cork airport. Ryanair only based an aircraft at Cork when their number one priority became chasing Easyjet out of Ireland.

Meanwhile, 120km up the road at Shannon, Ryanair pay next to nothing in charges. The region doesn't have the greatest population catch, and even depends a lot on Cork citizens using Shannon airport. Ryanair would hestitate to introduce routes from Cork in fear of damaging their Shannon yields.
This might explain why Ryanair never took advantage of the Cork Airport route support scheme which offered generous incentives over 5 years to airlines starting new routes to NEW destinations. Ryanair could have used their based aircraft on new destinations from Cork like Frankfurt Hahn, Milan Bergamo, Valencia, Stockholm, Venice Treviso, Pisa, Brussels, Weeze, Murcia (the list goes on) and enjoyed all the benefits of the route support scheme. But instead they used their aircraft to damage competitors on the Gatwick and Dublin routes :sad:

[en2r]

I dunno has anyone noticed but Aer Lingus are dropping Berlin from 3 weekly to just 2 weekly. There will be an extra rotation to Malaga instead, bringing Malaga to 5 weekly. From what I heard Berlin was doing fine, is Malaga doing really well to justify cutting frequency from Berlin. I suppose the new schedules prove that a fifth A320 is now very unlikely

[Charlie Roy]

The timetable doesn't really make sense either:

ORK - SXF 0715 - 1045
SXF - ORK 2140 - 2300

And DUB - SXF is being reduced to once daily, and it is with a DUB based aircraft...

[en2r]

Charlie Roy

I reckon its a mistake. By 2140 they mean 1140 and by 2300 they mean 1300. Dublin is getting a second flight from June but its being operated by a Dublin based aircraft

[Tom the Tenor]

The ramp at Cork was impressive on this Thursday evening. Even though this morning's Central Wings flight from Wroclaw operated in on time and the outbound flight to Krakow also left in good time the return flight back to Cork was delayed by four hours not arriving back at Cork until just after 9 pm after an aircraft change in Krakow. What an aircraft change though. Cant remember which one but she was one of the remaining Central Wings aircraft still in almost the full LOT colours so this evening at Cork we had 737s of Central Wings (LOT colours), CSA and Malev all on the ramp at the same time! A fine sight.

More seriously, Cesare asks a good question above about Ryanair and Cork. At Cork Ryanair seems almost institutionally incapable of any imagination preferring instead to go down a reactionary path. Last year on introduction of the Cork base with just the one aeroplane it seems the project was to destroy easyJet's operation to Cork from Gatwick. Ryanair spent a huge amount of money on this and they eventually won through this summer and easyJet are now gone from both the Cork market and from Knock and snn.

This winter Ryanair are giving their attention to Aer Arann on the Cork to Dublin route by Ryanair's introduction of a fourth daily flight to Dublin much later in the evening following the dropping of the 2nd daily Cork - Gatwick flight. How well four Cork to Dublin flights will do with 189 seaters remains to be seen but it fails me to understand why the second Gatwick flight in the evening was not a winner as it must surely have been?? Guess that Ryanair may argue the reintroduction of the FR907/8 from Stansted will soak up what would have been the business from the second Gatwick flight?

As Charlie Roy mentions above there would be so many, many potential new routes possible from Cork for Ryanair without ever harming any of the Shannon business but it is so far no from Ryanair and yes to their ultimately cynical reactionary negativity. You really could be forgiven for thinking that Ryanair have an agenda against Cork Airport? However, wonder will they reintroduce a full daily service from Liverpool just for spite on the strength of EI introducing a Manchester flight?

I have some more news too by the way but I am tired now and want to hit the hay so yez will have to wait a little longer for that so maybe tomorrow if I am in the mood! ;)

[ryan2000]

Heard that Cork have now resorted to turning off the air conditioning at off peak times in order to save money and that the real board i.e (The DAA) will not even allow the CAA to purchase a few new baggage trolley's.

Also the 3m mark is unlikely to be reached but that the CAA will reach the target budgeted for at the start of the year whatever that was.

The huge overheads associated with the new terminal coupled with the anticipated sharp reduction in full paying London flights is putting Cork under serious financial pressure. Others revenue earners such as BMI Regional, Loganair and CSA are withdrawing.

Almost all of the expansion is being carried out by airlines on freebies.

What are the chances of Cork becoming the 1st State airport to be privatised. Where else is it going to get funding for future investment?

[asianfly]

Ryan2000 - I would have no problem with the airport being privatised since the clowns running the show at the moment are obviously not doing a good job. To be honest, anyone who can deliver us from a situation where we have an airport grossly mismanaged and management (the CAA, the DAA, and the minister for transport) seemingly deaf to criticism, postitive or otherwise, then ANY alternative is a net positive. Ideally, I would like to see an arrangement where the airport is owned by the municipality and operated for the benefit of the Munster region (ie. operating profitably, but with a greater emphasis on developing pax numbers and routes that simply trying to stiff every customer for the max profit possible). Not as insane as it sounds, as many continental airports operate on a similar basis.
As a mere passenger who used the airport a lot, I believe there is simply a total lack of interest in the running of the airport by the staff, and an obvious lack of credible management from Dublin and their minions in Cork.
Finally, under normal circumstances, I could not really give a hoot what happens with FR and EI merger wise, although the thought of a monopoly in the air coupled with the present monopoly on the ground is one that does scare me. We were there before, remember, when it used to cost us a few month's salary to get to London on a schedule that was limited to say the least!

[fanatic1]

Me too. I definitly would love if Denis O'Brien bought the airport, rid it of its debts, lower charges and attract new airlines!

For once, the ramp could be completely full! (with exception of the Munster final day, what a sight!)

[ryan2000]

Serious questions must be asked as to why EI's plan to base a 5th aircraft at Cork next Summer have fallen through. It's difficult to see where any growth is going to come from if Ryanair and Aerlingus are not playing ball.

The occassional Polish route won't address the serious financial situation now facing Cork. Overheads at the new terminal are soaring.

[parsi]

Peronally I feel the new terminal prmises a lot but delivers less. It's cheaper to get a breakfast on Aer Lingus than in the restaurant.

There is a distinct lack of seating compared to before.

Coming back from Berlin today the buggy was delivered to Belt 4 without any comment - we weren't the only people staring at an empty belt wondering where the buggies were. Would it cost all that much to put more signs up ?The baggage hall seems to be tight on space at the ends but has plenty in the middle and the baggage trollies seem to be straight from the dark ages.

Only one ticket machine workingfor the long stay -the second one was broken on Tuesday morning and still broken today : not very efficient. In the car park itself there were iron rods (reinforcing iron) sticing out just beyond the kerbs and quite a few cars had fallen afoul of them.

Disappointed to hear about the Berlin route. Cork is better than Schonefeld though. Butthen again they are going todemolish it....

[Charlie Roy]

the buggy was delivered to Belt 4 without any comment - we weren't the only people staring at an empty belt wondering where the buggies were

I had the same experience last AUGUST, it's gone beyond a joke at this stage!

[Tom the Tenor]

Heard that the FR AGP-SNN diverted to Cork last night. The Central Wings WAW-SNN diverted to Dublin. Makes a change. Anyone know why?

[asianfly]

from the Cork Airport website today...a little box with the following. Says it all really.


"A PROBLEM OCCURED

If the problem persists please contact [email protected]"

[en2r]

Without doubt it would be better for Cork to be sold off to some big airport group. At least they would know how to run an airport, and as the only major privetely run airport in the Republic, would give Shannon and even Dublin a run for their money. The current management haven't a clue and are basically being told what to do by the Dublin Airport authority. Will it take bankruptcy before the government will wake up to the fact that the current situation at Cork is turning out to be a complete disaster?

[Tom the Tenor]

Late on Tuesday evening the Cork RVR went down below CATII minima to 250 metres. Two Aer Arann flights, the RE637 from Dublin and the RE304 from Belfast both had to divert to Shannon. Two Aer Lingus flights that took up the hold at Cork both ended up also diverting to Shannon but, thankfully, after going to snn the Cork RVR went back up to 400 metres and after refuelling both Cork bound flights returned once more to Cork.

Some time after the Cork RVR went back down to 250 metres again! Got to get CATIIIA for Cork Airport, just got to!

[MarkD]

TTT

CAT IIIa won't help Arann though will it?

[Tom the Tenor]

How about the Aer Arann order for new ATR-72-500 series aircraft? At the very least this variant of the aircraft should be CAT II capable or even CATIII? Yes, I know the crews need to be firstly suitably qualified for low viz approaches but you would think that with such high capital costs for the welcome new aeroplanes the marginal cost of the having your crews signed off for such procedures would not be a prohibitive sum? Aer Arann have had a quite a few diversions from Cork in recent weeks and the knock on costs involved in my opinion would go a long way to pay for a lot of pilot qualifications for low viz landings at Cork.

In the meantime, there was an ad on the radio this morning for the Aer Arann Cork - Dublin service and it looks like RE are now offering a complementary tea/coffee service during the flights. The four Ryanair flights a day must be focusing minds in RE which amongst other things leads us nicely back to low viz procedures as well as price etc.

Wonder where the capacity from the soon to be dropped RE DUB-SNN service will go?

Any more to add to the story about Cork supposedly not having enough cash to buy some new baggage trolleys? Yet there is no stopping Dublin from having a new pier, new terminal and a new runway in the years ahead. What hope does Cork have with this kind of brother competitor in Dublin not to even mention Shannon and the stopover. :bored:

[FlyCorkInternational]

Well EI-RB lets just review what Cork has been so fortunate to get from DAA ( Aer Rianta)
A State of the Art New Terminal Building...... We lets say an Impressive New Terminal Building. Definitely not state of the art. Just read the earlier postings in this thread and you will see the extent of the drawbacks of the new building.
What we can say we were to have got was........
(1) A terminal capacity of 5Mil pax
(2) Aircraft Stand and Apron extensions
(3) A new Control Tower
(4) 4 new airbridges
(5) A new Cargo village
(6) Untimately a parallel taxiway for Runway 17/35
(7) A new autonomous local board to run the Airport
All for the pricely sum of €160Mil to be bourne by DAA.
What we did get was....
(1) A terminal capacity of 3Mil pax
(2) Much reduced apron extension than what was planned
(3) 1 Airbridge which STILL has not been comissioned.
(4) A cancellation of the plan for a new control tower
(5) A cancellation of the plan for a parallel taxiway
(6) A deferring of the cargo village
(7) A board of YES MEN who can't say boo without DAA authority
(8) A crippling Debt
All for the pricely overbudget sum of €200Mil
As for the new Board, they were APPOINTED by the Government AND the DAA, and have had their hands tied ever since in view of their lack of any autonomous authority. The DAA were also responsible for the continuous changing and cutting of the plans for the new Airport to such an extent that the original plans and the structure now standing bear very little resemblence.
So yet I suppose we should be over the moon with what we have got, AND we will be so happy to get the cast off trollies from DAA in January.
I only wish the Government/DAA also thought like you and said sell Cork off to private control - that way it would operate and develop its true potential without continuous hinderance from DAA and uncertainty from the Government.

[Tom the Tenor]

An excellent defining post, FlyCorkInternational. Says it all about the Cork Airport that we are all now left with for the future. Asianfly calls her the Ugly Sister of the Irish airports and sure enough there is speculation here she is to get some hand-me-downs trolleys from the DAA/Aer Rianta Dublin office in January. As was mentioned to me yesterday it would never be a hand-me-down CATIII ILS or something really useful, would it? Oh, no!

[johnrizzo2000]

I'm surprised EI havent increased their Cork-Prague frequencies with OK pulling out in Jan!

[ryan2000]

Letter in todays Irish Examiner outlining the list of airline withdrawals and frequency cutbacks at Cork in recent months.

Of course there have been some positive developments as well such as WIZZ, Centralwings and expansion by Aerlingus.

However the board must rethink its strategy if it's going to get any meaningful growth in the years ahead.

Cork must look at its costbase and accept that we are living in a low cost environment.

[Charlie Roy]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but considering the airport of Charleroi, in the next couple of years it's going to get:

New Terminal (built within budget)
Train station offering direct services to Brussels and Charleroi (for starters)
Runway length increase from 2550m to 3200m
CAT IIIAnd hearing this, it just infuriates me to look at the mess the Cork Airport crowd are making of the place :ouch:

http://www.charleroi-airport.com/BSCA/siteEN.nsf/.NouvelleW/4F44D8169FFA90A1C125722500291450?OpenDocument&Key=no#
http://www.charleroi-airport.com/BSCA/siteEN.nsf/.GeneralW/35806C37994FC9ADC1256CD3004B96AE?OpenDocument&Key=menu6

[840]

I'm surprised EI havent increased their Cork-Prague frequencies with OK pulling out in Jan!
Their Cork-based aircraft are fully utilised. There's no space to schedule an expansion.

[en2r]

Charlie Roy

I bet Charleroi doesn't have Brussells airport dictating what it can and can't do, and that it has management that actually know a thing or two about running an airport not just people appointed by the Government. I think we're all agreed that the situation in Cork can't go on. Something has to be done. If it weren't for Aer Lingus, they would probably have gone bankrupt by now!

[Tom the Tenor]

The impressive improvements planned for Charleroi would be a mouth-watering proposition for any airport to look forward to as it plans ahead it's strategy for the future. Cork can aspire to such further improvements too and it is good to dream but for now let us take pride in the simple things - the sole Cork airbridge appears to be in commission as the Central Wings 737 from WRO and to KRK was connected up to the facility yesterday morning!

Small steps and the simple pleasures!

[ryan2000]

So they've finally got around to fixing the airbridge. If EI could be persuaded to use it the CAA could justify asking their DAA paymasters for a few more as they are by far the biggest operator in Cork. Malev, BMI Baby and Futura are all happy to use them if available.

Cork Board meeting on Monday morning.

[fanatic1]

This is good news and hopefully other airlines will follow Central Wing's example and use the sole airbridge.

Indeed it would be great if Aer Lingus were to use the sole Airbridge, but I deem this highly unlikely since EI have now gone down the low cost route.

Personally, I think Futura is the best bet and I think possibly they will be using the airbridge in the near future, but then again, I could be wrong.

Until Next Time,
Fred

[Charlie Roy]

I emailed Flybe to ask if they would consider starting Glasgow to Cork and this is the response I got:

At present we have no plans to start this route, and it is not high on our 'may be' list. We are however looking at developing our operations from Glasgow, and Cork will still be one of the destinations we will be considering. It will however be one of several, and new capacity will be limited so I can give no indication at this time if or when Cork might make the cut.

Nice of them to give such a full response :ok:

[ryan2000]

It's strange that EI have no problem using airbridges at all of the other airports they fly to. Only by the Banks of the Lee does cost issues arise,

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by ryan2000 http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
It's strange that EI have no problem using airbridges at all of the other airports they fly to. Only by the Banks of the Lee does cost issues arise,Ahh, but you see Cork is more expensive. The narrow contact charge is costly enough for an LCA but an airbridge charge on top of that, they simply can't afford it.

An airport official confirmed that CSA and Central Wings plus charter airlines will be the only airlines to use the sole airbridge.

On Thursday CSA made use of the airbridge for the first time as well as the Central Wings on the first day.

[Charlie Roy]

When I flew from Berlin to Cork EI didn't use an airbridge in Berlin for the flight. However the Berlin to Dublin EI flight did use an airbridge! :suspect:

[fanatic1]

That is odd, but I think we are reading in to things a bit to much!!

[840]

It's strange that EI have no problem using airbridges at all of the other airports they fly to. Only by the Banks of the Lee does cost issues arise,
As well as Berlin mentioned above, EI doesn't use airbridges in Faro where they are available.

But then the weather in Faro is a little better...

On another note, when CSA move out will Malev use the airbridge? Presumably, their current similar flight times rule this out.

[Sky Conductor]

Just read through some of this thread..cracks me up!! Look guys..if you really want to have a go in an airbridge why not just ask your mums to ring up the airport and see if they'll let you play in one for a while! But to be honest their no big deal just a metal tube that brings people from the plane to the terminal..i would'nt cry about it! Instead why not go out for a few drinks and a bit of craic rather sitting at home going out of your mind with worry about air bridges,CAT3 ILS and thinking that the whole world is against your cute little airport!

[brian_dromey]

i would'nt cry about it! Instead why not go out for a few drinks and a bit of craic rather sitting at home going out of your mind with worry about air bridges,CAT3 ILS and thinking that the whole world is against your cute little airport!:( :rolleyes: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

This guy clearly has no concept of what the weather condtions can be like in ORK. Our unique brand of "fog"(its actually fast moving, low lying cloud) causes unnecessary and costly diversions. Crews, pax and a/c end up in the wrong place, and flights are cancelled. Crosswinds are also an issue at EICK, I believe. Cat III would be a very useful addition to EICK , but due to the astronomical cost of the terminal(thanks to Aer Rianta/DAA) and the physical location of the airport its unattainable.

The suggestion of a conspiracy, is quite frankly s*** stirring, no one has ever said that "Oh my God, like, the whole world is against us" Quite the opposite, in fact, and the numerous blunders of DAA/CAA are posted here as an example of how a great facility woth huge potential is being wasted(same could be said for DUB). All 200 million worth of tax payers money. The CAA have toally lost the plot, if they ever had a grasp of it. Instead of chasing new customers to replace EZY, BA/Logan Air, CSA, etc they pick up some second-hand trolleys from the DAA!:ugh: I honestly do not believe these guys! Imagine, going to attract the likes of Lufthansa,SAS or Continental and saying, "sorry we can't guarantee an airbridge in a terminal costing 200million(we still dont know how to use the one we've got, and the others got lost on the way, but we do have a shiny new fleet of second-hand baggage trolleys":rolleyes:

Finally it is not a case of wanting "to play in an airbridge". The problem here is the WX situation at EICK. Wet, windy and a fine old hike down to stand 3/4/5 or to 12-15. It is DANGEROUS, as evidenced by the unfortunate lady who injured herself, not so long ago. Imagine if DUB did not have the "temporary boarding lounge", and expected pax to walk to those stands, except windier, and wetter! Then you get an idea of the stuation.

Anyways, enough of this. Have the CAA got their act together and bedded any new routes and airlines for next summer?

[Tom the Tenor]

Crikey, Brian, as if right on cue this afternoon Cork has seen some very severe weather and the cute airport on the hill has seen rain, high winds, crosswinds, windshear and low cloud. The list of diversions so far have included the Ryanair from Gatwick, the Aer Lingus from Birmingham along with the all ready quite late Aer Lingus flight from Warsaw. All have gone to Shannon.

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by Sky Conductor http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2974817#post2974817) Just read through some of this thread..cracks me up!! Look guys..if you really want to have a go in an airbridge why not just ask your mums to ring up the airport and see if they'll let you play in one for a while! But to be honest their no big deal just a metal tube that brings people from the plane to the terminal..i would'nt cry about it! Instead why not go out for a few drinks and a bit of craic rather sitting at home going out of your mind with worry about air bridges,CAT3 ILS and thinking that the whole world is against your cute little airport!

Look sky conductor, you obviously don't know what your on about.

You really can't say much because you have made only seven (7) posts since you joined in September 2004!

Like I mean that's laughable you coming and posting such a ridiculous comment!

Cork is known worldwide for being the airport built on a bog with the worst weather conditions ever!

It could really do with another airbridge, maybe some buses. And lord god we need the CATIII!

[westcorkman]

Someone plese correct me , if i am wrong, the capital cost cost of an airbridge is about 400,000 or 10 cent per pax over 1 year or 1 cent per pax over 10 years. hopefully so far so good. if thats the case ,the cost of providing them is no issue. So its then down to operational costs and an operator for 10 fifteen minutes say at a wage of 12.00 an hour so thats 3 euro per rotation . Cork should
(a) charge a very reasonable fee per passenger using airbridges- all four as planned and designed and
(b) absolutely insist that airlines use them .

Its all just a lack of respect for the Cork passenger.

I hear that an airside bus is on the way shortly, just as well i had a 300 yrd dash recently with water jumps , but still had to wait 42 minutes for the bag. Living in hope in westcork :O

[Charlie Roy]

I'm surprised EI havent increased their Cork-Prague frequencies with OK pulling out in Jan!

EI announced ORK - PRG earlier this year 1-3-5-7 and successfully bullied Czech Airlines off the route where they provided a daily service along with a host of interesting connection possiblities.

Now, next summer, EI are going to sit back and enjoy a monopoly on the Prague route offering a less than appetising -2-4-6- frequency :yuk:

I doubt CSA would make a return, but it'd be nice if Sky Europe would come along and and introduce PRG - ORK, and give Aer Lingus a taste of their own medicine! :ouch:

[parsi]

When I flew from Berlin to Cork EI didn't use an airbridge in Berlin for the flight. However the Berlin to Dublin EI flight did use an airbridge! :suspect:

Similar situation when we flew there. We arrived first and whilst deplaning in came the ex-Dublin flight and straight up to an airbridge. When we were coming home we used the airbridge though...

[brian_dromey]

EI announced ORK - PRG earlier this year 1-3-5-7 and successfully bullied Czech Airlines off the route where they provided a daily service along with a host of interesting connection possiblities.

To be fair I dont thaink that CSA were "bullied" off PRG. If I recall correctly it was not long after the EI decision to operate ORK-PRG that CSA announced they would be pulling off the route. I highly doubt that EIs presence at PRG was the PRIMARY consideration for CSA. To make such an announcment the route was clearly under evaluation. If the route was profitable and had good prospects then I suspect that CSA would have reduced frequencies rather than pulled completely, but with the entry of EI there was no point. As SN found out on BRU, Cork is a low yield destination. When CSA started the route it was the only connection to eastern Europe. Now the market is totally different, many destinations, many flights, many carriers.

[840]

To be fair I dont thaink that CSA were "bullied" off PRG. If I recall correctly it was not long after the EI decision to operate ORK-PRG that CSA announced they would be pulling off the route.

They dropped a lot of their UK regional routes, so there was presumably a general review ongoing.

I have heard that EI were aware of CSA's plans and that was a factor in selecting it as a route.

[Tom the Tenor]

Speaking of Prague yesterday's Aer Lingus flight 832 from Cork to Prague eventually left from Shannon last night around 10.30 pm arriving back at Cork this morning around 4 am. What an ordeal! The situation was brought about by yesterday's EI816 to Warsaw having to divert to Berlin due to the WAW weather and the later returning flight to Cork then having to divert to Shannon due to crosswinds and windshear in the local area.

Today, in order to have the normal Monday morning flights back in place EI had to hire in a 737 from Titan that operated the Alicante schedule so in the early afternoon the ramp was busy with three of the four EI A320s along with the Titan 737 before she left again for Stansted around 4.30 pm. That is now twice in recent times EI have had to hire in from Titan all of which adds to the costs of operating a schedule from Cork.

Cork Airport - what a place! She has got you loving her and hating her all at the same time!

By the way, there was another one of those one off charters to the Cape Verde Islands this morning in the shape of an Astraeus 737. Long flight in a 737 but then again Astaeus are the specialists in that area with their history of long haul oil related flights to the centre of Africa.

Makes you think if New York would be legally possible from Cork in a 737-700?

[ryan2000]

CSA were introduced to Cork in 2003 following a sustained effort by the former Marketing director John Smyth. The route was an outstanding success and thousands of Cork people availed of their 1st opportunity to fly directly to a Central European City.

They also provided a convenient connecting point for Poles and Latvians and many others to fly to and from Cork.

However by this year Cork had set up direct links to Budapest,Warsaw, Katowice,Berlin, Kracow, Wroclaw and Gdansk. This seriously diluted CSA's load factor and yield and with EI about to enter the Prague route CSA decided to leave.

The introduction of Cork Prague did serve a useful purpose at the time. Although the novelty of flying there has worn off, it could still probably sustain more flights than EI's 3 per week programme.

Over to Sky Europe or some other low cost.

[CCR]

Maybe Ryanair would operate a Cork -New York service when OpenSkies agreement is implemented. I took a flight from Newark to Oakland on a Continental 737-800 which is a similar distance.
Other routes that I'm surprised no carrier is on yet are Vilnius and Riga.
Maybe 2007..

[fanatic1]

Well if they are going to start in 2007, they would want to hurry and announce the route!

Maybe 2008!

[Tom the Tenor]

Nice idea, CCR, but EWR-OAK is at 2555 miles and ORK-EWR is at 3126 miles. 571 miles to shave off somewhere! The 737-700ER is the job, twice daily! JetMagic2, anyone?

[Tom the Tenor]

De Paper is running a story today that Mr Michael Cawley, Ryanair is due to meet up with Cork TDs on Thursday in order to promote Ryanair's bid to use the old terminal at Cork to bring some more business to the airport.

So, why not let FR use the old terminal now? The much hoped for 5th EI Airbus at Cork for next summer looks like it is gone for a Burton and if FR can bring some growth to Cork Airport in 2007 why not let 'em because it is slowly beginning to look like there will not be a whole lot else happening or are there still hopes for other new business?

Then again, Ryanair could still avail of fairly generous incentives from Cork by using the new terminal if they began a series of brand new routes and use of the old one would as a result be immaterial? Why the fixation on Ryanair's wanting to use the old terminal? Attention seeking exercise?

Interesting development all the same.

[fanatic1]

Hmmm.........this was in the paper in August also...it's a tough decision..
Do Ryanair know that rats have taken over the old terminal?!

In the end, I would definitly allow Ryanair to use the old terminal!
Ryanair would probably double the amount of passenger numbers!

I wonder would they intend to revamp the old terminal or just keep it the way it is?

Would they add a new baggage belt? What would happen with catering? Surely they would do something with the departure lounge!

After all the money they spend on their aircraft surely they could spare 8million to revamp it!
What are your views?

Until Next Time,
Fred

[brian_dromey]

why not let 'em because it is slowly beginning to look like there will not be a whole lot else happening or are there still hopes for other new business?
Then again, Ryanair could still avail of fairly generous incentives from Cork by using the new terminal if they began a series of brand new routes and use of the old one would as a result be immaterial? Why the fixation on Ryanair's wanting to use the old terminal? Attention seeking exercise?
Interesting development all the same.
Me thinks FR want to launch on rutes that are currently served quite well from Cork, routes to UK and Europe. Pushing the european lo-cos, RE and ultimately EI out of Cork. Under no circumstances should FR be allowed to undermine the future of Cork airport like this. If they want to launch new routes fine....do it like everyone else. After all the terminal is not exactly bursting at the seams. I think the CAA, as bad as they might be, remember the pain of EZY and LGW. "we learn about the character by what they say, what they do and what others say about them" So said my English teacher, the same holds true for airlines.



In the end, I would definitly allow Ryanair to use the old terminal!
Ryanair would probably double the amount of passenger numbers!

I wonder would they intend to revamp the old terminal or just keep it the way it is?

For the reasons outlined above I would not dream of letting FR use the old terminal, double the pax numbers they might, but at the detriment of competition. Just look at LGW, they promised 4x daily for this winter, EZY left and low and behold, 1x daily. You dont think thay would do this again?

Revamp the terminal, FR??? Surely you are joking? Have you seen the state of some of the interiors and paintwork of the 738? Tatty really doesnt matter to FR, so long as it works OK, twill do.

I believe there are also planning issues here. Until the current terminal is full, unlikely that CCC would allow the old one to reopen. Bottom line if CAA allows this to happen you can kiss cheap and frequent flight top anywhere slán!

Brian.

[ryan2000]

Brian is spot on in my view. A Shannon type deal at Cork would quickly undermine existing business particularly if FR want to cherry pick routes.

I'm broadly supportive of CAA on this one but they have to generate new business somewhere. If that means trimming costs then they should go and do it.


Why have a board that's immobilsed by indecision.

[jbsharpe]

Revamp the terminal, FR??? Surely you are joking? Have you seen the state of some of the interiors and paintwork of the 738? Tatty really doesnt matter to FR, so long as it works OK, twill do.


Indeed, same goes for some of the Ryanair airports around Europe.. Treviso for example...

JBS

[en2r]

Surely any deal to use the old terminal would have to go to tender. They couldn't just give it to Ryanair.I'd say it'd mean reductions for Shannon. Ryanair are constantly saying fares at Shannon are below expectations. They have to give away the seats for nothing just to fill the planes. Cork has a far better catchment area than Shannon, and should be more successful. I'd say if the price were right at Cork, we could see significant withdrawals from Shannon.

[aidanf]

.... and now for something completely different

Usually just lurk here, and spare me bile 'n stuff for Jet Blast. A thread which I recently posted on the aformentioned JB posed a question about why seaplanes aren't used so much. My thinking was, look how many business people travel Cork-Dublin / Dublin-Cork each day but train, plane and car. Flights are now good value, but being dumped out at Dub airport is a nightmare. Cork is a lot better but it can still be a bit of a haul at times.

How's about being able to stroll down to Custom House Quay, walk down to a pontoon and board a seaplane to take you right into Dublin city centre. Might be a tad slower than Aer Arann or Ryanair but the time saved not spent in traffic would be a delight. Also it wouldn't be a lo-co, but I'd be confident enough that people would be happy to pay a slight premium for the convenience.

All major Irish cities have enough water in and around their centre for them to be serviced in such a way. That's before you look at some cross-channel destinations.

Ok, then ... now all we need is a whip-round for a few mill and we're on our way. :8

[840]

I've seen this done between Vancouver and Victoria and it really is a city centre to city centre connection.

I suspect there would be a problem at the Dublin end though. Is there enough space wast of the East Link bridge to land and take off in a sea plane? If not, you're going to end up quite a wat out of Dublin.

Mind you, I have sometimes wondered about the possibility of helicopter services for city centre operations. In particular on short routes where the train is not there (Dublin-Manchester, Belfast-Glasgow) could you get enough demand to make it pay.

[westcorkman]

If Ryanair got it, it would be with one agenda- kill off all competition at Cork. Ryanair has never done Cork any favours before- so let them operate from new terminal and also benefit from the free new route incentives. Give them the old terminal and we will end up like Shannon, totally at the mercy of ryanair and without the added "benefits" of the transatlantic traffic.i

The Cork TDS , who incidentally do not have a say in the matter of the future of the old terminal ,will be very aware that this is KITE flying Mr.O' Leary. Lets get the new terminal paid for first as agreed and DAA has the sale of the 270 million (our earmarked money) from the GSH Hotels to fund it.

Re Aidan-f suggestion on flying Boats i was watching a tv programme at weekend on the Hughes flying boat "mother duck " in the 1940s and the same thought struck me- 747s with pontoons strapped underneath, heading for the east river New York from the Marina every morning. Control tower on the roof of Blackrock Castle.

The point was well made in the programme that with the increases in air traffic the only way to keep things managable and safe will be to reduce the numbers of aircraft and upsize everything - so its starting with the Airbus A380 , but they suggested next phase for 737s etc will also be much larger to carry perhaps an additional 100 passengers - thus limiting the capacity of many airports to handle them - so maybe sea planes will make a comeback. . who knows ? :ugh:

[MarkD]

TTT re your question on page 6 - atr only list Cat2 for the 72-500. I'm not sure there is such an animal as a Cat3a/b prop but am open to correction.

[Charlie Roy]

I'm also quite bemused as to why Aer Lingus aren't so eager to benefit from the generous route support scheme for new routes!

Why compete on routes such as Birmingham, Manchester and Prague! Especially when Aer Lingus are offering crapier schedules than the competitors who are already established on those routes!?

Indeed, if Aer Lingus eliminate BMI Baby, then they can enjoy some very nice yields on Birmingham and Manchester, but I hope that that day doesn't come.

It's a huge same that neither Ryanair nor Aer Lingus are committed to introducing new routes at Cork in the short term :sad:

[en2r]

Part of Ryanair's new schedule for the Cork based aircraft was no morning flight to Dublin on a Sunday. Does anyone know does the aircraft just sit at Cork airport until 10.10? Would it not make more sense for it to operate the Stansted morning flight instead of a Stansted aircraft. It would still be back in Cork in plenty of time for its 10.10 flight to Dublin!

[ryan2000]

That's a good suggestion enr. Any deal for Ryanair at Cork will surely be out of the new terminal.

The cost of operating two terminals in an airport with an annual throughput of 3 million would be huge. I suspect that a lot of Ryanairs Shannon business is from the Cork area.

They probably have to sell people the seats at 1cent to entice them to travel to SNN. They would probably get a much higher yield if they flew from Cork and cut still undercut EI as long as the latter put their crews up in 4 Star hotels by the banks of the Lee.


Any significant expansion at Cork by FR would almost certainly see off many of the smaller low costs and Aer Arann would also come under huge pressure. Fair play to them for standing up to FR on Cork Dublin but it's fast becoming a fares war and I know who my money is on to win.

[Hey there]

Who is winning the Dublin - Cork battle, or is it done and dusted?

Arran are adding a seventh daily rotation from next week, having only just added their sixth a few weeks ago. Ryanair are trying to fill four 200-seaters each way per day, up from three during the summer, and selling at below the airport charges (the Cork Airport website says 12.65e per departing passenger, Ryanair start at 5 euro "including taxes and charges"). Have they grown the market so much that everybody's aircraft are filling (not implausible) and the business people are staying with Arran for the flexibility without denting Ryanairs growth?

Maybe it is only a matter of time before Ryanair throw a few more rotations at it to shove Arran away but could this be the first route where high frequency Ryanair and turboprops can live in harmony?

[Cyrano]

Ryanair are trying to fill four 200-seaters each way per day, up from three during the summer, and selling at below the airport charges (the Cork Airport website says 12.65e per departing passenger, Ryanair start at 5 euro "including taxes and charges").

I don't think Ryanair pays €12.65 at any airport on their entire network. The published tariff at an airport is akin to the "Recommended Retail Price", i.e. a fairly meaningless fiction. You can be very sure that Ryanair has a far more aggressive (unpublished) deal than that.

[Tom the Tenor]

It was great gas at Cork last night and credit where credit is due - the place really looked like a serious airport as not only was the sole airbridge operational (!) and in use for the CSA flight from Prague but there was also a bus in use for passengers disembarking from aircraft parked up in the lower stands by the old terminal. Think the RE304 from Belfast got the benefit of the bus along with probably the EI845 pax from Amsterdam that was parked in Stand 5.

Guess it must be called progress and well done to Cork Airport. Good to see some heart returning to the place. Long may it continue! :D

[840]

Tom the Tenor

Who is providing the bus? The airport or one of the handling companies?

[asianfly]

That is certainly good news TTT. All I want to do is get on a plane dry, so glad to know that the long dash across a windswept puddled apron in a downpour is no longer a requirement before boarding for a 20+ hour journey to Asia. Let's hope the bus doesn't break down or go tech!

[Tom the Tenor]

The bus on the Cork ramp last evening was being escorted by an Airport Police van so guess it must have been a hire in due to the wet and windy weather we had in Cork last night. Not sure exactly if she was on hire to a handler or not but feel it was more likely the airport authorities.

Either way, thumbs up, the consideration of passengers came first which is always nice. :ok:

[brian_dromey]

The lads on the hill are certainly out-doing themselves at themoment, with both busses AND an airbridge! Hope it stays that way. :} I will be at the airport myself tomorrow (on the RE from LBA) so twill be interesting to see if I get soaked or not!

One more thought has struck me as regards EI and Cork. I flew EI LHR-ORK a fortninght ago(great flight by the way!) and the had a chat with the F/A as regards the MAN route. Funny thing is the Cork base thought they would get the flying! This would seem to indicate that the plans for a/c no5 were canx pretty suddenly. :( That or one or two routes were spared the chop? I think Aer Lingus missed a trick with LHR though, the morn and eve flights are always packed to the rafters, 95%+ full. What do they do? Add a bloody afternoon flight! Shuould have gone for a based 321 instead. Actually both!

Another oppertunity gone west, instead of 3/4 new routes we got one.....hmmm! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Maybe next summer!

[eick320]

The bus is a hire in from Kearneys and is only on the ramp when CAA think the weather demands it.

According to Tom the airport looked great but the wind really tooks it toll last night ... the arrival signs on the south tower blew away last night, last seen heading towards Kinsale passing stand 3, the glass panels on the arriving gate 2 were smashed and i think gate 4 stand 8 took a hammering aswell

[runawayedge]

If Ryanair are not paying full charges on CRK/DUB at both Dublin and Cork it raises some interesting questions. From the Cork Airport route support scheme it clearly states that an existing route is not a qualifying route if the route has already been served within the previous 12 months at a frequency higher than 2 services per week on a year round basis. So, if FR are not paying full charges at both Dublin and Cork, why? and how is it justified? does it conform with EU legislation? Assuming they are paying full whack, and after the Easy debacle, and the demise of CSA and the introduction of EI would it not be in the airport's best interest to introduce some sort of measures to protect existing carriers (obviously conforming with anti competition regs) on routes if they are performing rather than allow ridiculous short time competition that may ultimately destroy the route. I understand that competition is healthy, but there are times it is not. Thankfully RE are doing well and seem to be winning out, but were FR to be victorious I can guarantee frequency would be slashed, and who's the loser? the airport, pax and the region. CAA have to realise that there is a limit to what its catchment area will support on any given route, and maybe even recognise what RE have done for CRK over the last number of years, and dare I suggest it arrive at a strategy for route development instead of groping in the dark!

[840]

Brian->The Manchester flights start in March and as the first of Aer Lingus' new airbuses doesn't arrive until June, it would never have been operated in its current format by a based aircraft.

The currently announced EI expansion only requires a single aircraft to start operations in Dublin on the first weekend in June, so there is probably more to be announced. I doubt we'll see a fifth airbus in Cork, but perhaps we'll see another W pattern out of Dublin (Glasgow?).

[Charlie Roy]

Seems like this meeting was more about the airport debt question and high charges than specifically wanting to use the old Terminal.

In short, Ryanair are threatening to reduce services at Cork :ouch:

http://www.campus.ie/user?cmd=item-detail&itemid=100005

[en2r]

Does anyone know when Central Wings release their summer 2007 schedule? Will there be an increase in frequency on the two routes to Cork? Krakow especially should be able to support a third weekly flight

[ryan2000]

Not one advert has appeared in the local press advising people in Munster that Kracow (one of the most beautiful city's in europe) is now a City Break option from Cork. Where's the marketing support ? gone

[Charlie Roy]

Not one advert has appeared in the local press advising people in Munster that Kracow (one of the most beautiful city's in europe) is now a City Break option from Cork. Where's the marketing support ? gone

Who are you suggesting should do this? Central wings or Cork airport? Well if Cork airport do have a policy of marketing new routes then they'll also have to equally market Gdansk (one of the most ...Polish(?) cities in Europe).

[Tom the Tenor]

Heard there was bus moving around the ramp at Cork again last night in the gales and lashing rain. Looks like she is becoming a regular enough sight now! The CAA might as well go off and lease one all together. Think of the good publicity and sense of pride Cork's own bus would bring to the airport - Page 1 news in De Paper for sure!

Today's EI816 to WAW diverted to Berlin SXF presumably due wx in Warsaw. She is not long back to Cork. The Dublin flight to Warsaw also diverted to SXF and as far as I know the the return flight to DUB was cancelled whilst the WAW-ORK did eventually return with her pax. Up Cork! :}

[en2r]

It has been mentioned on the Ryanair thread that there are strong rumours that Ryanair have made a firm proposal to the CAA to expand out of Cork, presumably out of the old terminal.

[Tom the Tenor]

The Cork Airport bus has been summoned into action again today amidst the howling gales and the lashing rain and in weather like this it would make you think hard why the new Cork terminal has been left the way it is with just the one airbridge. It is a disgrace that at any sizeable state airport on a day like today that any pax have to be doing any traipsing at all around on a ramp. The Minister for Transport, the DAA, the CAA and the cute sleaveens in the golden circle of the old Aer Rianta and perhaps even an element in EI have a lot to answer for Cork not having more airbridges for decent Cork Airport passengers to use on such a bad day as this today. People are paying enough in charges to be awarded the comfort of at least staying dry and warm as much as possible in such severe winter weather.

There may yet be a Cork Airport Candidate in next year's General Election even if I have to stand myself if I get any more angry about the situation!

It was for a change this morning that Cork Airport had one of those rare events, a diversion from Shannon! The Ryanair flight from Liverpool diverted to Cork due to cross winds that caused a fair amount of other disruptions from the Shannon programme today, notably some of the American schedules including a Delta diversion to Dublin. Even a certain F-__DD, (A380?) was considering shooting an approach at Cork before the winds improved enough at Shannon for an approach. Presumably, it would have been a go around had Cork had got a visit this morning from the mighty Airbus jet?

Airbus aircraft are not wholly without precedent at Cork, Boeing neither for that matter. The Cathay Pacific A330 and the Condor 757-300 that arrived from Iceland in bad weather some years ago comes to mind. :)

[Faire d'income]

The Minister for Transport, the DAA, the CAA and the cute sleaveens in the golden circle of the old Aer Rianta and perhaps even an element in EI have a lot to answer for Cork not having more airbridges for decent Cork Airport passengers to use on such a bad day as this today.

Despite the wide spraying of bullets you fail to hit the target. Who more than anyone is responsible for the cost-cutting of every facet of aviation, especially passenger comfort? Who is trying to use the old terminal to gain a competitive advantage over the others that will force them to get access to the same facility ( rendering the new terminal useless and hence spending on it has ceased ). If your local sleeveens force the CAA into bed with the culprits which is likely it could ultimately bankrupt the CAA.

[ryan2000]

The old terminal proposal is a red herring. If the CAA use can accomodate Ryanair, it will surely be from the new terminal as the cost of operating two terminals in an airport of Cork's size would be hugely prohibitive.

CAA should stop looking on airbridges as potential cash cows and make them available at a reasonable price to airlines.

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, if a decision was forthcoming on the new terminal's debt the CAA might be able to get somewhere, right a few things like getting a Cobus vehicle for the ramp, put in a few more airbridges and oblige the likes of Ryanair use them if they wanted to do business at Cork and if they did not tell 'em politely as possible to go sling their 'ook!

I should like to thank you, Faire D'income, for your comprehensive summary of CATIII operations in the Ryanair thread. Very intersting material which I have referred to a number of times since your post on the subject and for which again I thank you.

To the best of my knowledge a measure of preparatory work for CATIII was done at Cork a few years ago so whilst it may be a very expensive undertaking it may just be technically feasible? That would have been at a time with a lot less traffic at the airport than now. As I understand it Cork's trouble lies mostly with the RVR in the horizontal with the Vertical viz being less of a problem and if it is any help I am almost certain that some A319 and 757 aircraft have done some CATII autolands at Cork in the last few years. So, what is the difference between a CATII autoland and one at CATIII minima, the autoland part itself should be the same?

Then again, I concede I might be getting it all wrong. Understanding ideas in physics etc and me normally dont see eye to eye!

[MarkD]

So, what is the difference between a CATII autoland and one at CATIII minima, the autoland part itself should be the same?

Tom - not sure there is such an animal as "CAT II autoland".

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_Landing_System#ILS_categories

however, this might be a goer in time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Area_Augmentation_System

[Tom the Tenor]

Typical Cork luck this afternoon in spite of the rare diversion this morning of the FR LPL-SNN flight. The Cork bound EI823 from CDG ended up diverting to Shannon around 5 pm due to windshear on the approach to Cork. The aeroplane would have been doing the EI722 from ORK-LHR but in the end she ended up doing the flight out of Shannon at 22.25 hours tonight after ferrying up 4 coach loads of Cork passengers by road to Shannon. The only consolation was that another aeroplane positioned in to Cork to operate a later flight to Heathrow, the EI724, so the schedule was in the circumstances restored fairly well.

Out of curiousity does anyone know if the EI823 was connected up to an airbridge at Shannon on arrival?

Cork. What a place though! Drive you mad if you let it! :ugh:

[en2r]

Does anyone know how Aer Arann's new Cork-Galway route is doing?

[Faire d'income]

So, what is the difference between a CATII autoland and one at CATIII minima, the autoland part itself should be the same?

Tom my understanding is that an autoland is optional at Cat II or higher. You can do an autoland any time with an ILS though manufacturers and airlines will have specific guidelines on the subject. There are risks associated with the protected areas which are not guaranteed except in low vis conditions. ( Some operators have a specific ban on autolands at Cork regardless of the weather - usually after an event )

I read about the metal plate mentioned with Zurich as an example. It might work ( that would be beyond my expertise ) but Cork has two important differences to Zurich. Zurich is set low between a number of hills so a rapid incline up to the threshold doesn't confuse the rad alt, unlike Cork and Zurich doesn't have any significant hump at the 1000' point which causes the autoland to flare too high and subsequently float.

An autoland is mandatory for ( almost all - HUD displays may be different ) Cat III operations.

[Rallye EI-BFP]

Not too sure if the 823 ended up on airbridge or not- depends on how busy it was. But from experience I have seen diversions parked on remote taxiways/stands

[flyerz111]

Does anyone know how Aer Arann's new Cork-Galway route is doing?
Must be ok as they had added a morning service on Wednesday and Thursdays from early Janaury

[en2r]

Just looked at Aer Lingus timetables to Paris and noticed that they have added an eight flight per week from Cork-Paris between 15th Jan and 19th of March. Its on a Monday morning and seems that this is instead of an Alicante rotation.

[Charlie Roy]

:ugh:

A Monday morning flight to Manchester would have been far more sensible!!!

[Tom the Tenor]

Alicante has traditionally been the weakest of the Spanish routes for EI from Cork. Would it be worth giving it up for a while to try Valencia instead? Afterall if Ryanair ever made a go of an expansion from Cork they could try Murcia at lower cost to pick up a lot of the Alicante type traffic and get more bums on seats. 2 VLC & 3 MJV would be enough, maybe 3 & 3 in July & August if the EI schedule was so flexible. 2008 or 2009 of course!

[840]

There are other changes too.

Faro seems to be dropped from January 15th to the end of March. The Monday afternoon service seems to be being used for an extra rotation to Prague. There doesn't seem to be anything replacing the Friday morning service yet.

[eick320]

The friday rotation is being re-placed with an additional berlin service

[en2r]

:ugh:

A Monday morning flight to Manchester would have been far more sensible!!!
Manchester doesn't start until March, the extra Paris flight is only until March. Anyway Paris is probably much more profitable. Have you seen the fares they're charging, and yet they always have good loads.

[Charlie Roy]

Manchester doesn't start until March, the extra Paris flight is only until March.

Valid point.
But I still can't believe that they're going to operate Manchester -234-67, with no Monday or Friday flights! :\

[en2r]

It has been reported on the Aer Arann thread that they are to open a new base at Waterford Airport, with the launch of new routes to the UK. What will this mean for Cork? Will it affect the number of Waterford people using Cork Airport? Cork has always attracted a significant number of people from Waterford, but more routes there will surely have a knock-on effect on Cork

[brian_dromey]

Cork has always attracted a significant number of people from Waterford, but more routes there will surely have a knock-on effect on Cork

I think that RE can see EI eating up many of its' tradtional routes out of Cork. MAN and BHX are the first examples. To be fair RE have a nasty fleet of old ATR's, and so-so service. Would you prefer an ATR or 320? The advantage is their ability to offer multiple daily flights, as they used to do on MAN nad BHX. RE are targeting the likes of WAT, LBA, SOU etc because EI/FR can either not get in there or make it work with 320/738. The inability to perform Cat II also does nothing to ehance their compeditiveness. The sooner the new ATRs come the better.

[RE72]

When RE dropped the BHX route, it was a sad day.

The loads on that route were very good, RE have the potential to launch GLA & LCY from ORK, but fails to.

It wont be long before FR are in ORK, and they might well wipe RE of MAN, EDI, BRS & CWL

[eu01]

Aer Lingus will have a competitor on the route ORK to Warsaw from the end of March. Centralwings is about to publish its summer timetables on Monday (until then the news is unofficial though).

[en2r]

When RE dropped the BHX route, it was a sad day.

The loads on that route were very good, RE have the potential to launch GLA & LCY from ORK, but fails to.

It wont be long before FR are in ORK, and they might well wipe RE of MAN, EDI, BRS & CWL
Maybe they're getting tired of putting time and effort into building up a route, just to see some other airline swipe in and drive them of the route! I'd say Edinburgh and Bristol in particular are very vulnerable to a new competitor, especially considering the prices they're charging!

[ryan2000]

Rumours that Centralwings have been offered a package that will see them serve no less than five Polish Cities from Cork in the near future. I presume it means Lodz, Poznan and Warsaw in addition to their existing flights to Kracow and Wroclow.

[mark_heg]

Totally off the subject, but just had a thought there about the remaining airbridges, since only 1 is operating and it looks pretty miserable. Do you think like a major bank/ other business could pay for them and use it to advertise on which is seen at major airports.You see HSBC is littered across most of the airbridges at LHR. If they paid they could advertise on them for several years?? Just a thought.
Also ya think the old terminal can be knocked anytime soon so more ramp space can be made available?

[fanatic1]

Rumours that Centralwings have been offered a package that will see them serve no less than five Polish Cities from Cork in the near future. I presume it means Lodz, Poznan and Warsaw in addition to their existing flights to Kracow and Wroclow.

Where did this rumour come from, (?) because 99.9% of the rumours posted here absolutely never come true!

:ugh: :sad:

[840]

While any new route is welcome, everything I've read about Centralwings financial situation would stop me from celebrating too hard.

I'm not sure they'd take on EI on the Warsaw route. Perhaps Szcecin - which they've just started flying to from Dublin - might be the third city.

[en2r]

Just seen new timetables. Cork-Warsaw is there. Initially 2 per week, but then increasing to 3 per week. Wroclaw also increases to 3 per week while Krakow goes to 4 per week! One major downside with Krakow though, all flights are now overnight, operating on a similiar schedule to Wizzair which means that most tourists will avoid it, instead flying from Dublin or Shannon. It will probably be mostly for Polish people.

[840]

Ryanair are transferring the Liverpool flights that had been switched to Kerry back to Cork, so it'll be returning to 1x daily.

A sign of improving relations with Ryanair or is it to put pressure on EI's new Manchester route?

[en2r]

840

I'd say Kerry probably isn't making money. Seats are frequently for sale for less than a euro only a day or two before the flights.

[CCR]

Wouldn't be surprised if Ryanair also introduced a Cork-East Midlands service to give Aer Lingus and BMI Baby competition on the Cork-Birmingham routes.

[dwlpl]

Ryanair are transferring the Liverpool flights that had been switched to Kerry back to Cork, so it'll be returning to 1x daily.
A sign of improving relations with Ryanair or is it to put pressure on EI's new Manchester route?

Probably both.

[en2r]

Pat Keohane, manager of Cork airport has confirmed that the old terminal will be knocked. Surely this is a mistake. Who would have thought that the old terminal at Dublin would be reopened? They may not need it now but the new terminal has a capacity of just 3 million which they will probably nearly reach this year. How will they cope if they sort out their problems with Ryanair and there is a major increase in the number of flights?

[840]

I suspect it's to do with ramp space. I've also heard that there may be some issues about how close it is to the runway.

I suppose an extension to the new terminal could be relatively easily built over the car park in front of the old terminal.

That said, this costs money and that's something that Cork Airport doesn't have. Even if it was available a parallel taxiway or runway extension would be a better way to spend it.

Are there any problems with asbestos in the old part of the old terminal?

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, it looks like Cork Airport is getting out of jail this week with the modest but nonetheless significant announcements of increased flights from Liverpool, Wroclaw & Krakow and the new Warsaw flight from Central Wings that will provide some competition to the all ready established flights by Aer Lingus.

It is only right that the daily Liverpool flight is being restored by Ryanair. It was not too bright to have reduced the capacity in the first place and it would be good to hope that Kerry may be able to get something back from Ryanair in the shape of a summer service from Merseyside?

What about all the Cork flights to and from Poland come next summer? There is going to be a lot of supply and can a good enough yield be got for the competing airlines? Guess with the six weekly CSA flights from Prague gone it should be just a tad easier to fill up some of the availabe extra seats. Sure hope so! Looks like summer 2007 will be the year for Cork people to visit the fine sights in Warsaw and Krakow etc!

Cork could do with more apron space for stands more than it needs the old terminal. Do not forget the banishings to Shannon and Kerry over the last few years and the revenues lost which might have gone a long way towards a few airbridges or a bit of extra concrete for either the runway or a parallel taxiway? The old terminal must have an ongoing cost for it's care and maintenance and fair enough if it is being used to the optimum from the overall airport adminstration point of view but no later than a few days ago the top brass of the airport were engaged in meetings at the Great Southern Hotel rather than at the offices in the old terminal. What kind of signal does that gesture give for the future of the old terminal?

Let us not be overly sentimental about it, I say knock the old terminal for more ramp. If the airport gets the magic 3 million pax by year's end it will be a superb achievement. Worrying how the airport might handle 4 million pax or more in the future can be put off for at least a few years.

Forgot to mention that the Mrs and I came in a few days ago from STN and in the arrivals hall we noticed that there were some new (to Cork) baggage trolleys! The new ones have the advertising panels removed so it not clear if they came from DAA HQ in Dublin or from snn but how they stand out is that they have instructions on use as Gaeilge (in Irish) which the old Cork trolleys have never had to my knowledge. So it looks like the Hand Me Down trolleys have arrived!?

Also heard that Cork Airport's sole airbridge at Stand 9T could not be got to work last Sunday morning for the First Choice Airways Boeing 757 flight to the North Pole to visit Santa. The airbridge could move in and out fine but not left to right and after some time a software problem was diagnosed and eventually an air-stairs was found for use with the aeroplane the only problem being that the stairs was about 18 inches below the height of the 757 but at least the crew got aboard and eventually things got sorted and the flight left for Santa nearly an hour late. The topic was covered on Monday morning's Neil Prendeville show on local radio, 96FM! One lady passenger on the aircraft had been determined to bring the subject to air and she also made mention of the three beautiful buses provided for her and the other pax to use on the crowded ramp up at Katilla!

Fair play to that lady, I salute you, Madam!

[Charlie Roy]

Looks like summer 2007 will be the year for Cork people to visit the fine sights in Warsaw and Krakow etc!

Genesis (Phil Collins) are in concert in Katowice on June 21st. Might be a good moment for a few Cork people to head over to Krakow and Katowice. Could even fly one-way with Centralwings to Krakow and the other way back from Katowice with Wizz Air :}

http://www.genesis-music.com/

[eick320]

News from the hill is that EI are training their staff on the one airbridge with a view to operate it on lhr flts at first and then on others.CAA by all accounts have re-looked at their billing and charging terms to airlines and as a result EI have committed to use the airbridge. But, the best is still to come there are rumours that a second airbridge is or has been ordered !!!!!!!! hope its better than the current always u/s airbridge

[brian_dromey]

News from the hill is that EI are training their staff on the one airbridge with a view to operate it on lhr flts at first and then on others.

Thats good news indeed! I think with the weather lately up on the hill, airlines have little choice but to look for alternitives to walking across a wet, windy and potentially dangerous ramp. Still though the problem reamins about the distant stands, like 1-6 for example.

I hope we will eventually see the number of airbridges brought back to four, and if EI commit to using them, then there is a good chance! One question though? Isthe airbridge in Cork capable of boarding passengers through the mid cabin exit doors found on the 757 and 321, or do they just use forward doors only?

[eick320]

Yes it will, once driven right .... so i'm led to believe

[fanatic1]

News from the hill is that EI are training their staff on the one airbridge with a view to operate it on lhr flts at first and then on others. CAA by all accounts have re-looked at their billing and charging terms to airlines and as a result EI have committed to use the airbridge. But, the best is still to come there are rumours that a second airbridge is or has been ordered !!!!!!!! hope its better than the current always u/s airbridge

This is definitly good! Where did you hear this? It has to be respectable so I can post it on my friends website for him!

PM me if yu want to know the link. The new airport is enchanted with good luck (so far....!)

[The Flying Cokeman]

Whether it's true or not I don't know but rumours on the line in EZY say that we will back in IRL for the summer programme. Time will tell.

[ryan2000]

Surely a long shot but great if it happens.

[brian_dromey]

Whether it's true or not I don't know but rumours on the line in EZY say that we will back in IRL for the summer programme. Time will tell.

Hopefully this is true, but I wouldn't bet on it. Its also unlikely that we would see a return to Gatwick, with perhaps Louton or Scotland being more likely. Perhaps also a destination in the midlands or on Mainland europe? GVA perhaps? I think if EZY come back they will be a bit more cautious.Time will tell.

Just wondering how RE are holding up on DUB? I note that they are advertising free newspapers and coffee on the route, but FR are offering every seat(even for next week!) at 0.99EUR + tax, so about 20EUR each way! Surely this can't go on?

[RE72]

RE are winning the war on the DUB - ORK route.

There are very little €24 fares left with RE, even though they are a reasonable amount designated on all flights. In the run up to christmas there fares are quite high, showing high loads.

While FR has nearly all .99c + TAX fares for the next two weeks!!!

It is cheaper for RE to operate a ATR 72 than it is to operate a 738 on such a short route, the 738 consumes a larger quantity of fuel. So i can only guess the DUB - ORK route for FR is making little or no profit on it.

The Free Newspaper and Coffee is a big factor for the Passengers, And RE are winning that support.

AER ARANN -1 , RYANAIR - 0

[ryan2000]

Of course Ryanair have very deep pockets and could always decide to increase the frequency. In some ways they are catering for different markets.

Aer Arans frequent diversions and cancellations during the recent bad weather not helping their credibility.

Not one Ryanair Domestic flight has diverted in over a year although one did return to Dublin due to crosswinds at Cork on 2nd December.

[EI-BUD]

Hi everyone!
I was reading the rumours about EZY possibly coming back to ROI. I think it's highly unlikely.

A source in EZY Luton has told me that the Irish routes did well in terms of Loads but yield was not good. They expect that any link to ROI would result in a Ryanair reaction. They are not interested in this type of competition, as they believe there are lots of profitable routes in Europe that would be more beneficial. In addition, Easyjet is trying to increase the average profit per passenger , which is going well and entry onto Irish routes would be suicidal,in that respect.

Apart from that, my EZY contact has said that Ryanair and Easyjet heads have met and have an understanding not to go onto the same routes head to head, and if you analyse the networks you will only see a few like for likes eg. Liverpool/Krakow, Stansted/Valencia. Many of these routes were pre existing and since the whole Stansted ORK, SNN & NOC experience occured they have been very much staying out of each others ways.

Think about it. In Madrid they both have a new base but they are not serving any of the same routes.EZY are dropping CIA/MAD as FR starts the same one. Ryanairs new routes to Turkey and Morocco are not in competition with EZY. THere are examples.

Ryanair have scaled down expansion at LTN and EZY are not expanding much at STN.... What does anyone think ?

For 1 I think that EZY are a wonderful airline and would love to see them come back but really I cant see it happening.

[ryan2000]

Unless they are thinking of routes that Ryanair are not interested in. Two years ago they offered Cork a package of UK and Continental services including Dortmund, Berlin , Bristol and Glasgow. but for some reason it never materialised.

[airhumberside]

Apart from that, my EZY contact has said that Ryanair and Easyjet heads have met and have an understanding not to go onto the same routes head to head
Couldn't this be classed as anti-competitive and get them into troubel with the competition authorities?

[The_Bean_Counter]

What a pile of poo

Only in the last week have Ryanair announced Rome - Madrid an Easyjet route and Easyjet have announced Gatwick to Palermo and Pisa, two Ryanair routes

[RE72]

The_Bean_Counter

Thats News To Me That FR serve LGW - Palermo / Pisa

Because Theres a big difference in serving LGW - Palermo / Pisa and serving STN - Palermo / Pisa .... A 72 Mile Difference.

[ryan2000]

AA are operating Chicago Shannon for Summer 2007 as are EI. CO are operating EWR-SNN. Delta operating from Atlanta and JFK to SNN and EI are operating from JFK and Bos to SNN. US air operating from Philadelphia to SNN.

If all of these routes are viable its a poor reflection on Cork that it cannot get a direct US service up and running even on a seasonal basis.

You won't be able to hide behind the bilateral for much longer and the Department of transport have provided you with a loophole since 2004.

[EI-BUD]

The Bean Counter:

As for Competing on Gatwick/Palermo & Pisa, Ryanair do not fly these routes. However, they do serve these airports from London Stansted. I gather you meant they were competing on London area to Palermo and Pisa. I have to say I agree with RE72 on this one. Totally different airports miles apart and when factoring in driving conditions , its a long way.

Back to my comment about madrid/rome, prior to me writing that comment the website was showing that Easyjet was not flying it after March 24th, this seems to have changed. So you are right on that.However, I dont forsee any intense competition. Probably a daily rotation each and this frequency is unlikely to require major discounting as seats will fill up easily. But going back to my original comments I dont think it is to wide of the mark to say that they will (FR & EZY) will stay out of each others ways . Certainly where like for like routes are concerned.

RE: Air Humberside comment , could be seen as anti competitive, I think you are absolutley right, but how can it be proven and also it is I would its a very informal gentlemans agreement . What do you think ?

[brian_dromey]

If all of these routes are viable its a poor reflection on Cork that it cannot get a direct US service up and running even on a seasonal basis.

All of the expansion on trans-atlantic routes has come from American Carriers. These airlines have equipment, the B752/762ER which would be very suitable from a size and operational standpoint for operations from Cork. The problem is still the bi-lateral. As I understand it, if the ships are not regestered in Ireland, then it is necessary to keep the 1:1 ratio regardless of where the a/c begins its journey. IF the ship is Irish regestered then once the journey begins anywhere except DUB, the stop is not necessary.

Basically the stop over is the main issue for the Americans, and the operational limitations(runway length:confused: :confused: :confused: and the 180 turn) are the main reason for EI not launching a service. :ugh: The reality still is that the bi-latteral is restrictive and disadvantages ORK and NOC. If the regulatory climate had be right we could have seen t/a routes this summer. I do not blame the CAA for this, its hardly their fault that Airlines are not willing to operate into Cprk. Even if they could land for free, they still would not come. :{

[en2r]

Yet another day of cancellations. Almost everything today has been cancelled, or is subject to significant delays. This cannot go on. When will they realise that the airport needs CATIII as a matter of urgency. Airlines will pull out if this continues.

[orkpilot]

Its not only COrk that flights have been cancelled or diverted.
Dublin and Shannon are also sitting in the fog.
There was even diversions from Shannon to Cork yesterday!!
At least Cork has a CAT 2 ils!!!!

[dwlpl]

Correct if I am wrong but doesn't the pilot, as well as the aircraft, need to be cleared to operate in the various CAT divisions?

If so, its no use having the airfield cleared to operate CATIII if the pilot/aircraft isn't.

[Tom the Tenor]

Since last night it has been yet another long day of lost pax for Cork Airport. Before midnight two EI A320s diverted to Shannon and then in the early hours the two Wizz Air A320s from Katowice and Gdansk also diverted to Shannon. The galling thing is that both Wizz Air flights would, undoubtedly, have been full to the brim outbound with folk from Poland heading home for the Christmas Holiday. The loss on the Poland flights alone would be near to 360 pax.

There was a lucky break around 9 am when the Central Wings from Wroclaw eventually landed at Cork after having first decided to go to snn but that luck did not hold as both the FR9843 headed back again to Dublin and then the EI841 from AMS also diverted to Shannon.

Why does Cork Airport not have a CATIII ILS? Yes, I am repeating myself but not for one moment do I accept talk about rad alt and slopes being the final word on why Cork cannot overcome the installation issue. The technical issues must be overcome and if this takes pots of cash to get it right and if the Dublin Airport Authority refuses to recognise the dire situation Cork Airport is in regularly due to low cloud and some fog is it time to go to the private sector and sell off Cork Airport?

Why are the folk whom are charged with responsibility at Cork Airport not speaking out about this crazy situation the airport finds itself in once again today during this holiday period? It is a disgrace. Up to time 1415z today by my rough reckoning Cork Airport has so far lost around 1200 pax or even more since last night. It will be interesting to note what waffle the public relations companies hired by the the Dublin Airport Authority and their servants in the Cork Airport Authority come up with on this latest disaster at one of our nation's airports.

As for flights to America from Cork - dream on! If the bilateral disappeared tomorrow morning it would mean very little for a long, long time. In 2006 the sole airbridge at the new Cork Airport may be looked on as the new airport's Annex of Incompetence.

[fanatic1]

....If all of these routes are viable its a poor reflection on Cork that it cannot get a direct US service up and running even on a seasonal basis......

My Dad was at a Rotary Meeting about two weeks ago..Kevin Cullinane was guest speaker. (Marketing Manager)

He said that they probably will have a charter flight (most definitely excel, since they have already mentioned it) to Florida in 2007. And most definitely by 2008.

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, my earlier estimate of the numbers of passengers diverted and cancelled must be a lot higher than around 1,200 because much if not all of the bmi baby programme and a huge chunk of Aer Arann's programme was cancelled today along with EI cancellations to Paris, Rome and Lanzarote. As far as I know the EI868 to Barcelona is likely to operate later from snn. At least the EI893 from Madrid eventually made it in a short while back during a brief clearer spell along with the FR905 from STN but as I type the RVRs are gone away down again to 250 metres.

Only Cork Airport is able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory so well in it's own so unique way and the hoped for 3 million passengers for 2006 must now be sinking fast?

Fanatic, get your Dad to tell Mr Cullinane to ditch the ol' guff about Florida - what will work is New York, Florida wont, for heavens sake! :ugh:

What Cork people want for their summer hols are the Lanzarotes, the Santa Ponsas and a bit of pop music! :ok:

[metalboymike]

Did anyopne hear the rumours of NOC-JFK/BOS flights for next year?
It was in the Irish Mail on Sunday and apparently Mayor bloomberg of New York got sanctions for the route without a shannon stop.

Just thought the same could happen at Cork if airlines dont object?

[Cyrano]

All of the expansion on trans-atlantic routes has come from American Carriers. These airlines have equipment, the B752/762ER which would be very suitable from a size and operational standpoint for operations from Cork. The problem is still the bi-lateral. As I understand it, if the ships are not regestered in Ireland, then it is necessary to keep the 1:1 ratio regardless of where the a/c begins its journey. IF the ship is Irish regestered then once the journey begins anywhere except DUB, the stop is not necessary.

Brian:

For what it's worth, my recollection of the bilateral is not that American carriers need to keep a 1:1 ratio if they fly to Irish points other than DUB, but rather that under the bilateral, American carriers are simply not allowed to fly to any points other than DUB or SNN. I don't think 1:1 ratios come into it.

Brgds
C.

[Charlie Roy]

I hope this forecast is wrong:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?world=0211

Otherwise one of Cork Airport's busiest weeks of the year is set for severe disruption :ouch:

[akerosid]

Brian:
For what it's worth, my recollection of the bilateral is not that American carriers need to keep a 1:1 ratio if they fly to Irish points other than DUB, but rather that under the bilateral, American carriers are simply not allowed to fly to any points other than DUB or SNN. I don't think 1:1 ratios come into it.
Brgds
C.

With any luck, if Cullen is allowed to negotiate an amended deal with the US, he can also include a provision for ORK to get access from the US. It's a ridiculous situation for ORK to find itself in. I don't agree that there isn't a market. Among the Irish people living in the US, there must be a significant number, not just from Cork, but from the SE of the country, who would find ORK more convenient. I'd be very surprised if a 757 from EWR, JFK or BOS couldn't be made to work. But for a start, let's get the restrictive regulations out of the way and then at least, the Cork Airport Authority can approach US carriers and give them some incentives.

[en2r]

I hope this forecast is wrong:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?world=0211

Otherwise one of Cork Airport's busiest weeks of the year is set for severe disruption :ouch:
I hope so too. Saturday could be the busiest day of the year. It would be a disaster if it were anything like today

[EI-BUD]

I have to agree with Aeroskid I think a daily 757 operation on the atlantic from Cork could do well. There is alot of activity on the atlantic by american companies using 757, especially Continental. Many of the routes that they have launched were to routes that were previously unavailable eg Bristol and Belfast to Newark.

However, It would be very interesting to know what the volume of traffic is originating in Cork heading to Eg BOS,JFK, ORD, EWR and connecting at LHR or AMS, CDG or DUB. Perhaps the intending passengers may well travel to SNN to catch flights.

In any case, I would like to see AerLingus do the Cork US run if it happened, As the interline business could be driven with their low fares? But I am not sure if the A330-200 with full load could take off? I know big aircfaft can land there but with performance restrictions. Does anyone know if A330 can do it with full load ?

[ryan2000]

In 2004 an EI senior executive publicly stated that the Runway length was not an issue if EI decided to operate ORK JFK. He confirmed that the route was under consideration but said that a change in the bilateral was required.

Around this time the Dept. discoverd the loophole in the bilateral that would have allowed Aer Arann operate the route but that proposal fell through in Sept 2004.

In October the Willie Walsh led regime departed. It is not known what the attitude of the current management of EI is towards a US link from Cork.

Given the current level of activity ex SNN albeit due to the outdated stopover, a Cork JFK service at 3 per week sounds feasible but of course Yield is the overriding factor in all of this. Will Cork people switch to SNN when the cheap fares are gone and V.V. ?

[johnrizzo2000]

An ORK-JFK link with EI will also depend on what a/c are ordered. I think if they go for 787, and choose the smaller variant (not sure if its 800 or 900??), well then an ORK-JFK may be possible! A 757 service is ideal, and CO looks like the perfect operator, as they are set on operating smaller routes like BRS/CGN/OSLO etc to Newark!

[westcorkman]

For an analysis of Open Skies click here
(http://www.swra.ie/openskies.pdf)
Note It takes a few minutes to come down

Happy Christmas

[Charlie Roy]

I notice that while ORK - DUB is bookable after July 1st with no changes to the current schedule, ORK - LGW is not available yet.

Could ORK - LGW get the axe? I doubt it...

[ryan2000]

Neither is Cork Stanstead so I presume its just a matter of Ryanair timing their announcement.

Heard that a US airline is willing to negotiate with CAA about ORK-JFK if an open skies agreement comes into place.

[Charlie Roy]

Cork to Stansted is operated using Stansted based aircraft.

ORK - DUB and ORK - LGW are operated by the one Cork based aircraft. Hence it is strange that the schedule for this aircraft is available for ORK - DUB after July 1st, but not for ORK - LGW...

[brian_dromey]

ORK - DUB and ORK - LGW are operated by the one Cork based aircraft. Hence it is strange that the schedule for this aircraft is available for ORK - DUB after July 1st, but not for ORK - LGW...

Maybe its a case that Ryanair MAY base another aircraft at Cork next summer. I think, althouh I may be wrong, that Cork is the only Ryanair base with a single aircraft? MAD, for example opened with four!

I also think that once dily to LGW is a joke. Last summer they definately did two daily flights, which seemed to do well, and EZY were competing on LGW with three daily at the time. Aer Lingus may have missed a trick not basing a 5th a/c at Cork this summer, so maybe Ryanair may launch a few more routes? Maybe Germany and Scandanavia, Glasgow along wIth more LGW flights. But with FR and the CAA, who knows?

[ryan2000]

Dublin Gatwick , Dublin Stansted and Derry Stansted are not bookable from July either so it's hard to call it at this stage. There have been numerous rumours of a 2nd Ryanair aircraft over the last year at Cork but nothing has materialised. Now Easyjet have entered the rumour machine again. CAA will have to new business from somewhere if it wants to stay above 3m in 2007.

[EI-DHC]

I would appreciate if someone could enlighten me on the RYR/ORK situation:

If i'm not mistaken, RYR initially moved 3 of the ORK-LPL services to Farranfore and ALSO said that they would not expand their services in ORK in protest against the fees charged by the CAA.

Have those landing fees etc subsequently been lowered to say that RYR have now moved those three flights back from Farranfore to ORK, or was there some other reason for the return of a daily ORK-LPL service?

Thanks in advance.

[en2r]

EI-DHC

As far as I know, the loads and yields on Kerry-Liverpool were disastrous. Aer Arann's well established Kerry-Manchester route didn't help things. Loads were always good from Cork, and there clearly was demand for a daily service. Also the fact that EI are starting Cork-Manchester may have had an influence. As far as I know, landing fees are the same as when they moved the 3 flights to Kerry.

[RE72]

Just being looking at the FR schedule for its ORK based 738, and it appears the aircraft is quite under utilised, there is 70 minutes spent on the ground @ DUB between 1025 and 1135 and a further 70 minutes on the ground at ORK between 1615 and 1725. Thats a good 140 minutes which could easily be utilised with another ORK - DUB rotation.

What do you believe the reason for this?

Could it be that in the case of a backlog, there is sufficient time to allow catch up in the event of delays and help not lose PAX to RE, or maybe there allowing the market grow before launching a 5th daily DUB-ORK rotation.