Tips for a/c ID....please? [Archive]

roundthebend

26th Sep 2006, 09:24

Hi folks

I'm currently preparing myself for ATCO selection with NATS in the UK. Part of Stage 1 involves common commercial a/c identification and characteristics.

I'm not a complete novice to this, I've been interested in aviation for years so I can spot a B747 easily along with variations like the 400 series or SP. I just wondered if anybody could give me some simple tips on how you ID an a/c.

Here's the particular types that we've been instructed to "get up to speed" on:

Boeing 737, 747, 757, 767, 777
Airbus A300, A310, A318, A319, A320, A321, A330, A340
MD80/81/82/83/87/88/90
MD11
Fokker 70/100
Embraer 135/145, ERJ170, ERJ190
Avro Regional Jet 70, 85 and 100

One thing I look at is number of engines. But what are the other tell-tale signs? What's the difference between the MD series visually?

Any tips appreciated...otherwise it's just good old study and memory!

the dean

26th Sep 2006, 09:59

Hi folks

One thing I look at is number of engines. But what are the other tell-tale signs? What's the difference between the MD series visually?

Any tips appreciated...otherwise it's just good old study and memory!

roundthebend:-

yep..it is...apart from the obvious...shape , size and number of engines..you could check out the undercarriage , the wingtips ( airbus as opposed to boeing )...it is a matter of study and memory....

you should get a good civil aviation book of photographs or google it..there are any amount of photographs ( all shapes and sizes ) and you can search for exactly what you are looking for on www.airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net).
try that.

may be a little more difficult when it comes to things like the 319/321..of course no problem with 330/340..

those that drive the particular versions may have the best clues as to the differences....but despite being around them for years i still have difficulty with small differences in some models..

try the website.

good luck..:ok:

roundthebend

26th Sep 2006, 11:19

thanks. i've been looking through that site for quite a while, it's superb.

airbus have distinct wingtips - thanks for that pointer.

the dean

26th Sep 2006, 11:35

good...and sorry ment to say about the MD's...the 11 is obvious but the others are more difficult...

probably a driver of one will give better guidance but as a passanger i would say the newer ones like the 88 aand 90 were much longer and thinner and had beautiful pencil thin ( when looking from underneath ) wings and quieter and longer sleeker engines..

again check the net for that.

the 11 of course has the 3rd engine up on the tail and is wide body...all the others were twin rere mounted fans..

there you go...:ok:

panda-k-bear

26th Sep 2006, 11:46

Telling the difference between any of the MD80 series is a nightmare. The MD90 is easy because it has IAE V2500 (V2525-D5) engines in a bigger nacelle. But the '80s - if you ever figure how to tell all of them apart, let me know! There were so many different build standards and so many labels attached it's painful.

roundthebend

26th Sep 2006, 16:32

Telling the difference between any of the MD80 series is a nightmare. The MD90 is easy because it has IAE V2500 (V2525-D5) engines in a bigger nacelle.

Parlez vous en Anglais ?:confused:

I'll go do some research on that one..........the IAE2500 (V2525-D5) engine in a bigger nacelle. I thought my vocabulary was good !

roundthebend

26th Sep 2006, 16:43

OK....I've sussed out that a nacelle is a 'housing' which typically will hold an engine. I've also checked an MD90 and noticed the larger engines, which are labelled as Boeings.

The MD11 is distinctive, but it looks very similar to a DC-10. Only differences I've noticed are winglets on the MD11 and the wing engines do look different but I'm not sure.

On another note, I was watching some video clips of a/c landing and I noticed a 737's nacelles splitting just after touch down. I've never seen that before. Is that common to all engines, or just some? Is it to do with reverse thrust or brakes or something else?

Rainboe

26th Sep 2006, 17:42

roundthebend......I don't think you're cut out for this. Have you considered banking?

roundthebend

26th Sep 2006, 18:33

roundthebend......I don't think you're cut out for this. Have you considered banking?

Sorry. Which of my questions was most ridiculous?

We all start somewhere, and a/c ID is just one aspect of Air Traffic Control. You could even say that visual ID of a/c isn't that important for area controllers, or other controllers for that matter.

Have I considered banking? Have you considered stand-up?

Spitoon

26th Sep 2006, 19:13

I have to disagree with Rainboe, with a come-back like that, roundthebend will do fine in ATC.

To try and help out, I've no idea how this is tested in stage 1 selection (maybe there's more info somewhere on Pprune) but here are a few hints......but I should warn you that I've been an aerodrome person for the best part of 30 years and I have trouble with distinguishing between many types.

A300s always struck me as looking different to everything else, they seem to stand higher, taller fin and big engines. A310s are short 300s. The 320 series are tricky, 318s are noticeably short, 321s are noticeably a little bit long, but 319s and 320s cause me difficulty unless they're next to each other!

Boeings - I guess 73s and 74s are easy and there's nothing long and thin like a 75 in the air. The 76 and 777 are fatter.

When they're high up I find the wing shape on the Boeings and Airbuses are completely different - can't describe it but see if you can find pics and you might see what I mean.

I agree with everything that's been said about the MD-80 series. I gather that the end of the fuselage under the fin gives a hint to the model but it's not foolproof (this courtesy of a spotter-ATSA colleague) - some are round and others look like they shut the hangar door before the thing was out.

With the smaller types I'm afraid I'm not that familiar - I just say "follow the Fokker" or whatever! But I think it basically comes down to length.....there's a joke there somewhere but I won't bother.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Jerricho

26th Sep 2006, 23:07

If they ask you in the interview to identify a picture that you don't know, you could always say "Hey, on a radar screen they all look the same" :}

With the Embraer aircraft, the ERJ170/190s look like a cross between a 737-700 (winglets) and an Airbus A319. The 135s/145s look very low-slung on the ground (kinda sleek like a sports car). I always found it a little easier in working out which airlines operate what. For example, back when I first started as an assistant in Australia, Qantas were the only ones who flew A300s (can be confused a little with a B767). Just a suggestion.

All the very best of luck mate :ok:

barit1

27th Sep 2006, 00:59

It strikes me as inconsistent to group all the 737's in one lump (-100 thru -900ER), yet try to individually distinguish all the MD80s & 90, ditto the A318/19/20/21. :confused:

rolaaand

27th Sep 2006, 02:02

I did my selection tests in 2000,so my information may not be current. On the first selection day there were no aircraft recognition tests. On the 2nd stage, during the "technical interview" part of the day,my interviewer produced about half a dozen small model aircraft and asked me to identify them. I got the obvious-Concorde,B747,and a DC10 i think. The rest were of the B737,A320 size of aircraft and I had to admit that I didn't know the difference! If you have done well in the rest of the application process then not knowing the difference between an A320 and a B737 will not harm you at all.Good luck.

sir.pratt

27th Sep 2006, 02:29

some very newbie questions, but yes the engines 'splitting' is thrust reverser opening.

here's some of my amateur spotting hints:

74-2 - short upper deck
74-3 - long upper deck, no winglets
74-4 - long UD, winglets.

76-2 - short and fat, but still big
76-3 - longer, than a 200. no winglets. small flap track canoes

all 73's - can see the wheels when retracted and have a large fin
73-3 - no winglets.
73-4,5,6,7,8. very hard to tell apart except from length, especially now winglets are being retro fitted.

777 - triple axle bogie. knife-edge tail (as opposed to 76 which has a cone)

DC10/MD11 - are there any DC10's still flying? MD11's have winglets.

my advice - print off some from www.airliners.net and study them.

cheerrs

ATCO2

27th Sep 2006, 02:46

Hi roundthebend (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=120960),

If you really want to study all types and of acft, please go to EUROCONTROL web site and register yourself in the Elearning zone. Overthere, you will fine elearning courses. Take one called Aircraft recognition and performances. You will find there from the oldest type to the newest one with all photos and performances. I have learned there whatever I need.

I think, it will help you much.

Tarq57

27th Sep 2006, 03:54

I've been a tower controller for a few years and having thought about it a bit through training others, realize I have a general sort of filtering system for aircraft ID. (Often you don't realise how you do something, until you have to explain it to someone else.You just do it. This action -teaching/explaining-can work to improve - or sometimes invalidate - your own model.)
Find photos of all the aircraft you need to be able to ID. Pref including some different angles.
Obvious things to compare: No. and layout of engines, High/low bypass. Wings high/low, swept/not. Wheels, (Generally maingear) nr. of axles, nr of maingear legs. Tail, T, cruciform, regular. Dihedral?
Cabin- window shape, position (high or mid) no. of overwing (and other) emergency exits. (Eg check out the window shape on the Fellowship compared to the DC9 series) Cockpit windows, general layout, angle windscreen blends into the nose, size.
Where fitted, Airbus winglets look distinctively different from Boeing winglets.
Just glance at the whole aircraft to categorize it (eg that's a low wing narrowbody twin jet, underwing engines, or, that's a low wing jet with two underwing and one tail engine) and then go through the above list - as few or as many items as req to make a positive ID. In the above bracketed examples, a low wing narrowbody twinjet definition already eliminates many types and then draws you to the obvious "big 2" family, Boeing 73#/AirbusA 318/19/20/21. The second example makes it either a Tristar, or a DC10/MD11. Then look to the differences that you have learnt differentiate each aircraft in a similar group to ID it.
Lastly, although the post is a bit long, don't sweat it too much. If they want you, you're not going to be shown the door 'coz you couldn't tell the diff between an F28 and a DC9.

tired-flyboy

27th Sep 2006, 06:57

roundthebend

27th Sep 2006, 08:13

Eurocontrol aircraft performance site (http://elearning.ians.lu/aircraftperformance/) or elearning.eurocontrol (http://elearning.eurocontrol.int/)

Recommend the above site. Although its a eurocontrol site you can register as an individual and test yourself in a number of catagories.

When you select your courses make sure you enrol role in are Web Based.

On this site you can choose Met, Law, Ac Recognition etc....good starter. And when you make it through the selection tests i recommend using this site to help you when your at the college..I did!!

Good luck

Gee guys, thanks for ALL of the very useful replies. I'm off to the Eurocontrol sites now to do some intensive study. I realise that ID is only one part of this task, the more important part is to learn about their range, airspeed, cruising levels and operators.

I think I have a reasonable foundation of knowledge to build upon, so I won't fret too much. Like others have said, it isn't the be all and end all of the selection process. It is, however, one of the aspects that I can improve upon unlike cube tests:eek: :confused:

Tarq57

27th Sep 2006, 09:04

Cube tests might seem silly, but visualisation is pretty important, so my advice would be to spend a bit of time having a go at them. Not quite sure about the mechanism involved in being able to translate that to visualising a 3d airspace environment, but I guess it tests the same group of skills.

panda-k-bear

27th Sep 2006, 09:08

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that you didn't know the technical names for the parts of an aircraft. Nacelle, whilst being a French word, is the accepted term for the "bit around the engine".

You asked what was your silly question - well parlez vous en Anglais was the silly question. Come on - I tried to help you but if you're just going to be sarcastic, why should anyone bother? Anyway, as you will note, 2 can play that game.

One little tip I discovered quite by accident - to tell the difference between a 737NG and a Classic (you may have to look that up), the strobes (the flashy light thingies) on an NG are co-ordinated so all flash at once. On the classics, they don't. Helpful when trying to identify a -700 or a -300.

Splitting an A318 from an A319 is a pain unless they're parked together. One little detail is that around the NLG doors (that's the door above the front wheel if we have to be basic) there are 2 strakes (little bits of sticky out metal that are quite long) - presumably for stability - that the A319 doesn't have. The A318s fin is a bit taller (the fin is the tall bit at the back of the plane) than the A319 but unless they're parked side by side then you won't really see it. The A318s rudder (does that need an explanation?) doesn't go all the way to the top of the fin but the A319s does.

roundthebend

27th Sep 2006, 09:27

My "Parlez vous en Anglais?" was intended to take the piss out of my own poor technical knowledge. You'll see that I did go away and find out what a Nacelle was. Perhaps my awful sense of humour doesn't go down well in text, my apologies.

I now see the irony in me using French to ask a question, when the word confusing me was a French word:ouch:

Your help is greatly appreciated with or without the annotations-for-dummies. If you spoon feed me, that's great. If you provide minimal info, I'll hunt for the rest.

MinimumRest

27th Sep 2006, 09:46

At my selection tests (sometime in 2001 I think) I got shown some pictures of aircraft, something like a Cherokee, an Embraer 145, an A320 and a B747, and asked which I'd most like to cross the Atlantic in, and why! So it's not just the actual recognition that counts, it's the understanding of the market for each aircraft and it's capabilities in regard of range, fuel, number of passengers etc (not exact of course, just an appreciation). Also I doubt you'd fail for not being able to name the series if your other answers were good enough. I even thought the Embraer was a CRJ (not dissimilar though!) and still passed :ok:

the dean

27th Sep 2006, 10:08

way to go roundthebend...

you got some great help there...

off with you and let us know how you get on...

good luck...:ok:

fly bhoy

27th Sep 2006, 11:51

smellysnelly2004

27th Sep 2006, 12:02

roundthebend,

As stated above, you've had some great advice (wish I'd found the Eurocontrol elearning during my selection!).

One thing I will add is that the level of technical detail in this thread wasn't needed in the intial selection. Obviously it's advantageous to know more than is needed, but don't get too caught up on one thing. Saying that, I've been told by a couple of people that learning the stats well, (as i did) will only help you during your interview as obvious depth of knowledge shows motivation etc. Also been told that it is very useful at the college to know A/C performance, range etc.

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions about the selection process :ok: :ok:

GT3

27th Sep 2006, 12:23

roundthebend
The best way to tell the a319/20/21 apart is look at the overwing exits.
a319 - 1 overwing exit
a320 - 2 overwing exits right next to each other
a321 - 2 overwing exits but 1 at leading edge and 1 behind the wing.
Hope that helps.
FB:ok:

Just to be picky :p Easyjet have two overwing exits on their A319s due to the number of seats. 321s have 4 full size doors rather than the smaller overwing exits on the 19 & 20. :8

msmorley

27th Sep 2006, 12:25

roundthebend
a319 - 1 overwing exit

Unless it's an EasyJet example and then, it too, has 2 overwing exits - for regulatory reasons as they carry > 150 passengers.

Please tell me I'm posting this in the spotter's forum... :}

m.

fly bhoy

27th Sep 2006, 12:48

Just to be picky Easyjet have two overwing exits on their A319s due to the number of seats. 321s have 4 full size doors rather than the smaller overwing exits on the 19 & 20.

You learn something new everyday!!;) :D

Never picked you for a spotter though GT3!!!:} I thought that was P7's job!!!:) :O

roundthebend

27th Sep 2006, 13:41

Unless it's an EasyJet example and then, it too, has 2 overwing exits - for regulatory reasons as they carry > 150 passengers.
Please tell me I'm posting this in the spotter's forum... :}
m.

Well I did start this in the Spotters' forum, but someone sneakily moved it here. I deliberately didn't put it here because of recent complaints about NATS trainee ATCO applicants asking questions that didn't concern those already on the radar.

That said, I'm overwhelmed with the advice from all corners.

WHBM

27th Sep 2006, 13:44

On a more general level of discussion. Are there many ATCO applicants who are actually NOT enthusiasts to some degree, when they apply for the job ? I get the feeling many are.

Nothing wrong with that, it's a good way to get into a key national industry. Compared to say going into manufacturing a generation ago, aviation just grows and grows.

DC10/MD11 - are there any DC10's still flying?
Certainly are, had one come right overhead me in Central London last Sunday, Biman inbound to Heathrow from Dhaka.

roundthebend

27th Sep 2006, 14:42

I can only speak from a personal perspective. I wouldn't say I was an enthusiast, because that implies that I have for some time been reading magazines regularly, or going spotting, or actively getting involved in aviation somehow.

However, I'm not a complete novice because as far back as 13 years I was interested in being a pilot. My family are surprised how much trivia I know about a/c, but that's because Joe Public's knowledge seems to stretch as far as "that's a plane. that's a helicopter."

I'm already able to spot the more obvious types (B744, A380, BAe146) and my kids are getting quite into it too. They always ask me questions so if I don't know the answer, I tend to look it up on airliners.net and then get engrossed in various other types.

barit1

27th Sep 2006, 20:06

...
here's some of my amateur spotting hints:
74-2 - short upper deck
74-3 - long upper deck, no winglets
74-4 - long UD, winglets.
...

But the 747-400F freighter is short upper deck, isn't it?

wallynearMEM

27th Sep 2006, 20:54

Sure there are still DC-10's flying around. They are freighters now. FEDEX has a bunch of them. Some have been updated with MD11 type cockpits and are called MD-10s, with only 2 crew. The only way to tell is on the nose they have written MD-10.
Wally

DC10/MD11 - are there any DC10's still flying? MD11's have winglets.

my advice - print off some from www.airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net) and study them.

cheerrs[/quote]

JediDude

28th Sep 2006, 00:09

as far back as 13 years I was interested in being a pilot.

Whats changed?

barit1

28th Sep 2006, 00:11

Get yourself a gig as ATC at Oshkosh. ID consists of "Yellow biplane start base leg now. Red low-wing can you pick it up a bit? White high-wing land long please."

sir.pratt

28th Sep 2006, 00:28

But the 747-400F freighter is short upper deck, isn't it?

yeah but has no windows.

we don't see a lot of fedex freighters down this way :)

Dances with Boffins

28th Sep 2006, 12:49

Bloody hell, it's ATCO selection, not a spotter's course! :ugh:
They don't want to know if you can name the manufacturer of the catering trolley on a 747-400. They want to know that you recognise it is a 747, how far it goes [inter-continental would probably suffice], how many poor wee buggers are expected to fit into it [roughly], who operates it [not all of 'em], where it could be expected to be seen in UK [I would venture that Inverness doesn't see too many] etc etc.
ATC is a holistic thing. If you just learn the numbers, you ain't actually learning. You need to read between the lines so that you understand:cool:

roundthebend

28th Sep 2006, 12:53

DWB - thanks for the reminder......it's just that NATS have sent a very specific list of a/c and I wanted to go a little further than knowing the data.

WHBM

28th Sep 2006, 13:35

Does strike me that there is a lot of recognition needed along the way, on both sides of the mike. "Park next to the Maule" is a bit of an embarrassment if you have to reply "what's a Maule ?" (and before you ask, yes .........:confused: ).

Am always struck by some ATC who, for example, differentiate between a 146 and an Avro, or between "follow the Air France 146" and "follow the Air France LIVERY 146".

roundthebend

29th Sep 2006, 19:36

Taking this a bit further then......I appreciate the comments made by DanceswithBoffins that an ATCO needs to "understand" various things about the a/c.

So, why is it useful to know how many seats an a/c generally has, or it's speed, cruising alt, typical routes and operating airlines?

I can see why these things are useful, but I can't really get why they are vital or important.

Unless, of course, this stage of selection is just to see how well we can study and memorise data.

NudgingSteel

29th Sep 2006, 21:13

If you know what the cruise speed or level of a particular type is, you can instantly spot a mistake on the flightplan in front of you....which might be linked to a mistake in the aircraft type flying that service....which might be a different vortex category.....which might kill everyone in the smaller type you've just vectored close behind it. Okay an extreme example, but FPL errors etc do occur, and some things jump out at you if you've a good awareness of the general performance of different types.
Plus as a tower ATCO you might appreciate that although a B752 and a B732 have vaguely similar cruise speeds and levels, the 75 will massively outperform the 73 in the climb if allowed to. Another useful thing to know, to avoid embarassing yourself in the departures position....
Plus, don't start TMA departure controllers on the Airbus 340 at maximum departure weights......
And in answer to the original list of different types, the MD80 series can be identified from the engine noise being loud enough at departure, to make your eyes bleed.
seriously though, good luck, it's a grand job!