British European and BHD [Archive]

Raw Data

31st Oct 2001, 03:04

Thesaurus, you display the standard ignorance of airline operations that is so common in the travelling public.

All airlines have unserviceabilities and delays, I myself have been stuck in the US waiting for BA to get a serviceable aircraft, for three days! Using your logic, I would immediately refuse to ever fly BA again, but that would be a stupid thing to do.

In general, the time taken by a slower aircraft to get to London City is about the same as a faster aircraft that has to hold at a beacon whilst awaiting an approach into LHR, then taxi for 20 minutes to get to the stand- but you apparently missed all that. That is the reason that the LCY routes are growing very strongly at the moment.

I didn't miss the importance of the check-in point, it isn't debateable. The question of viability on the route is- the most important factors being low operating costs and low admin costs. Less desks=less rent (it is obviously a balancing act), and a Dash 8 will always be cheaper to operate than A320's.

Finally, if you really want a clue as to the relative merits of each case, try looking at how much trouble BMI are in at the moment, compared to how much trouble BE is in. Note particularly the number of aircraft that have been grounded and crews made redundant- 117 I believe.

Effiency is the name of the game now.

carlos vandango

31st Oct 2001, 03:54

Raw Data, it doesn't matter what you say..Thesarus's actions speak for themselves. If passengers don't like it, they won't travel on it. I have yet to meet a passenger who prefers travelling on a turboprop to a jet. Although passengers will travel on props if it gets them where they want to go, they are unlikely to to get on one when there's a shiny jet sitting beside it heading for the same city. Moreover, drop the condescending attitude to the travelling public..they pay the wages (even if they don't complete the return trip). A full BMI 320 is gonna make a lot more money than an empty DH8-200. The early LHR was 25 overbooked yesterday..did those 25 climb on the DH8 to LCY? No. Maybe they would have if it was a 146.

gul dukat

31st Oct 2001, 04:39

Raw Data ..I love the attitude !How dare a customer /guest/passenger/slf have an opinion ! Carlos is correct THEY pay Your wages!Mind you trying to book a flight on your website at the moment is enough to put a person off!! No timetable details!!Can't book on line! blimey keep those flights secret and then you won't be troubled by ANY pax in the back!!Ah well ..always have GO ..they don't seem to be troubled by the weather and seem to be a sensible price as a lot of BRS and STN pax are discovering :D

Springbok220

31st Oct 2001, 13:21

Holy flute!!!! :eek:

keepitlit

31st Oct 2001, 13:58

Raw Data,You should go back to basics like your name sake.
Rule numero 1."The passenger is always right".
I dont take kindly to your comments on the state of our Company with regards to the numbers of job loses as this affects alot of us personally those sort of comments you should keep to yourself.
You seem to have the desire to kick people when they are down :mad:

As for the loads on our LHR route the aircraft was to be an A320 but Im sure you will see for yourself that some of the rotations have had to be change to an A321 due to demand,oh and thats 196 seats at 35,000 feet in the clear blue skies compared to 50 on a 56 seater aircraft at 19,000 in the crap.
As for holding,Worst case ie about once a week we would hold for 20 mins,but this is accounted for in the time table.

Just accept it,there is plenty of room for all of us.

Rgds K.I.L.

May the hairs on your A*se turn to drumsticks and beat your b*lls to death. :D

Zulu

31st Oct 2001, 14:00

And for those who STILL haven't learnt the following important lesson...

Rule 1:
The customer is always right.

Rule 2:
If the customer is wrong, apply Rule 1.

:cool:

Lou Scannon

31st Oct 2001, 14:08

Thesaurus: Perhaps Raw Data was due a little criticism. However, your diatribe was so far over the top in length and threats that it appeared the work of a totally arrogant bully.
You say that you have some 15,000 hours in command of public transport aircraft. All I can add to that is my relief that I have never been one of your crew members.

Zulu

31st Oct 2001, 16:03

Lou - fair enough,
BUT...
I refer you again to Rules 1 & 2 above.
:cool:

Raw Data

31st Oct 2001, 16:53

Carlos Vandango : correct regarding aircraft choice, and the point I was making was the relative profit potential of different types, that of course assumes both are full. I wasn't making any comment on the numbers that actually travel, or marketing, or anything else.

gul dukat: try reading what I wrote. Customers are more than entitled to opinions/feelings/whatever, as we all are. However, most reasonable people like to be equipped with the full facts so that they can make informed decisions. Opinions or decisions arrived at in the heat of the moment are very rarely reliable.

Thesaurus: you too need to read what was actually written, rather that just assuming things.

For a start, my opening statement was comparative, not definitive. English comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

As most businessmen choose to fly at peak times, for generally understood reasons, the point about the respective flight times and delays is perfectly valid.

Regarding fleet/crew disposition within our company, you have chosen to hear a very one-sided view. Yes, we are (at the moment) retiring one fleet of four aircraft, but we are also expanding our other fleets, the net result once all acquisitions are complete should be a larger fleet overall.

Similarly, regarding staff levels, although the process is not yet complete, my understanding is that very few currently employed pilots will end up unemployed, due to current expansion. One thing is for certain, no pilot on the main seniority list will lose their job- only contract and ad hoc staff are at risk. There may be the odd exception, for example those nearing retirement who are on the main list, etc.

If you are as experienced as you claim to be, you would also know that all aircraft must be used to the best advantage, and this does sometimes mean using a different aircraft on a route in order to maximise efficiency. You have clearly, once again, misread what I said- I said "routes are growing strongly". Obviously, that is an overall statement, not just referring to BHD. A route can "grow strongly" from 0 to 40, but that is still better served (in efficiency terms) by the smaller aircraft.

Finally, it beggars belief that anybody would take a perfectly reasonable difference of opinion on this site, and turn it into a personal vendetta against an individual, including attempting to threaten their employment. That says far more about you than it says about me, and such blatant misuse of this site should be of far more concern than anything I have said.

Your post (and threatened actions) are malicious and completely uncalled for.

Good luck with your attempts to get at me, and thank you for showing your true colours.

twinboom

31st Oct 2001, 21:27

Does anyone have anything useful, preferably first-hand, to say about the original subject of this thread? My understanding was that we/BE are contracted to have six check-in desks at peak times so that is what BHD should man-up to. (however 2 off-peak would not seem unreasonable.) If this ain't happening then the originators question needs answering and action.

Thesaurus I have about half your number of posted hours, majority Jet-Command which I do still practice and - as it happens - also an MBA. Thank you for your welcome feedback I would wish to respond in a more constructive way but this B-board is showing a "blocked" e.mail for you. Mine isn't, please advise yours, 'twill of course go no further.

Zulu
Of course we all (save RD!) understand the point you are making - I find myself that re-stating the cliche thus:

"The customer may not always be right but he/she is always the Customer"

and acting accordingly is a good recipe for on-going successful business relationships.

...andhas the minor advantage of reducing your two rules to one! :eek:

Dr. Hertz Van Rental

31st Oct 2001, 21:34

I don't mean to jump on any band-wagon BUT (once again,unfortunately)I am appalled at the attitude displayed by RawData. The man/woman (sorry Thesaurus) to whom you replied in no way deserved such a vitriolic and scathing response. I would join those directing you to the sound advice from Zulu.

I hope you never reach a serious management position at BE or they are in REAL trouble!!! To turn a grievance on a legitimate point into an arguement on the finer aspects of the english language is one of the most ignorrant and condescending things I have ever read.(I was in no doubt what you implied in your reply. The point of language is to communicate. The grammar is one point but most comprehension comes from the underlying implications. We can't all have misunderstood you)

The situation presented by Thesaurus was simple enough to understand and could have been explained and mitigated quite easily by a balanced and sympathetic reply. To turn it into an issue where a customer is insulted (yes, insulted!!!) by a BE representative on a public forum for having an opinion contrary to that of RawData or against British European( IN THE CURRENT AVIATION MARKET) is beyond belief.

You do not deal with a complaint by resorting to critisising someones grasp of english........SHAME ON YOU!!!!

(Fortunately, having worked at Brit. Euro. I know RD is the exception rather than the norm and I do agree that a new Moderator for the BE guys and gals would be appropriate!) ;)

left290

31st Oct 2001, 22:27

In reply to 682ft AMSL my understanding was that BE couldn't get rid of their CRJs until next March under the current climate, so they may as well use them. But I was suprised to see them on the Leeds route.

Zulu

1st Nov 2001, 00:46

Dons mediator hat...
:eek:
Before this all turns personal (Ooops! Missed that by about 15 posts...), I think Raw Data and Thesaurus (What would be in a Thesaurus as another word for Thesaurus...?!), both of whom are entitled to their opinions, re-read this thread:
RD: "Thesaurus, you display the standard ignorance of airline operations that is so common in the travelling public."
Can't see you standing at 1L and saying that to the suits as they board...so why here?
Thesaurus: "I have also banned my employees from travelling with your airline. etc..." and other, let's be fair, fairly fire-and-brimstone respones.
Hmmm, if that's your reaction to the opinion of one employee, based on a response on PPRune, I'm not sure which airlines will be left in the world you'll let your employees travel with!
The problem I see is this:
Most passengers have to fall back on Rule 2.
Most crew have to learn Rule 1.
Perhaps both parties could take a step back, dare I say it apologise? and get back to what could have actually been a useful thread about BHD/business travel/bmi etc.?

EPRman

1st Nov 2001, 20:03

Thesaurus,
I appreciate Raw Data can come across as a bit of a know all at times but having re-read his post I can't find anything remotely vitriolic in it. I'm afraid you've gone a bit OTT in response and I'm inclined to agree with the comments of Lou Scannon.BTW if you're going to patronise Raw Data regarding the standard of his spelling make sure yours is beyond reproach or you may look a little foolish.

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: EPRman ]

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: EPRman ]

tilii

1st Nov 2001, 20:35

Well, Raw Data. It seems you have at last bitten off a good deal more than you are able to chew. FWIW, I think you truly had it coming. :D :D :D

The Guvnor

1st Nov 2001, 21:40

Interesting thread.

Couple of thoughts.

1) I agree completely with Raw Data when he says (to paraphrase him somewhat) that success doesn't come in big packages. If I was running a regional operation, I'd be more inclined to add more frequencies with smaller aircraft than have one or two flights a day with larger ones. Passengers - especially business travellers - want convenience. I'd rather fly NOW in a DHC8 than in five hours from now in an A320.

2) "The customer is always right". Wrong. Let me quote this from Tom Peters: "When Southwest Airlines CEO Herb Kelleher gives customers a terrific deal on an airplane seat, he makes it clear that his emloyees come first - even if it means dismissing customers. But aren't customers always right? "No, they are not" Kelleher snaps. "And I think that's one of the biggest betrayals of employees a boss can possibly commit. The customer is sometimes wrong. We don't carry those sorts of customers. We write to them and say, "Fly somebody else. Don't abuse our people".

It will be interesting to see if - in Thesaurus' case - Jim French is a Kelleher kind of boss.

tilii

1st Nov 2001, 22:13

The Guvnor

That's fine, Guv. No right thinking person would argue that anyone is right all the time, be they customer, employee, employer or even The Guvnor. :D

But what about when the customer is right in that he/she has a legitimate complaint? Surely you do not condone Raw Data's approach to Thesaurus, do you? ;)

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

The Guvnor

1st Nov 2001, 23:17

tilli - I have carefully reread the posts of both Thesaurus and Raw Data.

I'd suggest that what's kicked off this little spat were the words "Here's a clue for you..." In Raw Data's case, he used them in response to a question being posed by Dik Dastardly who was questioning the ongoing viability of JE's DHC8 vs BD's A320.

Thesaurus then uses the same words but in a rather aggressive manner, where he's obviously got an (understandable) axe to grind with JE - ie that the flight was late; he didn't get a meal and it was bumpy. Now, as an alleged ATPL holder with 15,000 hours he should have encountered all of this many times before, but then he's paying out his hard-earned dosh for something and he's not getting it, so fair goes to the bloke.

Raw Data then responds to him (not knowing at this point about the ATPL and 15k hours etc) and gives what I have to concurr is a bit of a condescending put-down.

Thesaurus then comes back with a very aggressive - and in my opinion a seriously OTT - response.

So in response to your question I do think he erred with the condescension in his first response to Thesaurus - but on the other hand Thesaurus was subsequently well out of order.

If you put yourself in Raw Data's shoes, how would you have answered Thesaurus' first post - bearing in mind its tone?

tilii

1st Nov 2001, 23:46

The Guvnor

I do not see it quite the way that you do. Do you not agree that Raw Data's remark: Thesaurus, you display the standard ignorance of airline operations that is so common in the travelling public.was unnecessarily patronising and, in the light of latter disclosure of Thesaurus's very valid experience, flawed supposition?

The offence in such a remark is surely aggravated by RD's further comment: Using your logic ... would be a stupid thing to do.and [I]f you really want a clue as to the relative merits of each case, try looking at ...

Frankly, RD has shown in the past his great sensitivity to any comment adverse to his present employer, irrespective of merit or verisimilitude.

I am not at all surprised that Thesaurus took offence. It is clear that others see it the same way. This could be settled with a simple apology from RD to Thesaurus but, as in the past, RD seems totally unwilling to show even a modicum of self-reproach in anything he posts on this site.

As I have already said, I think he has had it coming.

The Guvnor

2nd Nov 2001, 00:25

tilii - I did say that I thought Raw Data's initial reply somewhat condescending. However, as he's not psychic I think it's unfair to hold Thesaurus's apparent experience as flight crew against him. Indeed, his lack of understanding of operational procedure would tend to make one think that here's a pax with little air travel experience at all - let alone someone with 15,000 hrs!

Raw Data's later comments that you have highlighted were made after Thesaurus retorted with what I am sure you would agree is a very hostile and OTT post. As an example, his second sentence in his opening paragraph:

Let's deal with a few of the toys that the poor child has thrown from his cot, shall we?

is completely uncalled for.

He goes on to say:

I have also banned my employees from travelling with your airline. To-morrow I will write to all of my suppliers and customers with copies of your comments, and will ask them whether they would wish to travel with your airline.

I would be rather concerned at the decision making abilities of an individual who bases his commercial decisions on one person's posts on a forum such as this, wouldn't you? I would submit that this is rather someone who is spoiling for a fight and deliberately agitating the situation, as he continues:

You, single-handedly, have done your airline a great deal of harm on this forum, by your ignorant attitude towards a customer, who posted a factual post on this site. I trust that Mr. Fyne will now seriously consider your position as a "moderator" on this site to be a liability, rather than an asset.

Now, with a statement like this, the Herb Kellehers of this world would tell him that he's more than welcome to take his business elsewhere - in fact, they would prefer it if he did so.

As you say, he's shown great loyalty to his employer which is something to be applauded and not decried. If one were to apportion blame, for the rather heated nature of the exchanges I'd put the ball firmly in Thesaurus' court with a 70:30 split.

Now, I think that the original point of this thread was to discuss the loyalty - or lack of it - by BHD to the airlines that made them successful, so how about reverting back to it?

Vref +50

2nd Nov 2001, 00:26

Thesauras - you are being a pompous prat.

I am the MD of the UK's 33rd largest company. If you would oblige me with the details of your company then I will ensure that we boycot it. And ask out commerical dependents to do so as a matter of ongoing quality requirments.

Raw Data has - over the years - provided countless posts of assistance and advice to Wannabes. He has on several occassions provided Wannabe Sim Days where he has provided Sim Training to Wannabes at cost price.

He is therefore a thoroughly good bloke.

Whereas you are a relative complete newcommer who seems to want to impress everyone with your personal threats against an individual for his comments on what are supposed to be anonymous forums.

Were BEA to act on your unwarranted actions I think RD could have a field day with the company at tribunal.

At the moment you are one of the first people to intone that they are going to pursue a PPRuNe Character in the real world.

What next? Will you or your ilk be be writing to the employers of Danny, PPRuNe Towers, Hamrah, WWW, Crashdive and the band of brothers that runs PPRuNe..?

PPRuNe and the real world should be kept totally seperate. What a man writes on a PC in his study late at night after a glass of Vino is IN NO WAY applicable to that same man next day at the controls of his airliner.

VREF.

ps before you flame a response - your name and your company please. Else you are a big pansy who can't take his own medicine...

slj

2nd Nov 2001, 00:53

VREF+50

Perhaps you could state the name of your company so that we could all join in the ban the company game.

Although you say you are the MD of Britain's 33rd largest company, that can mean a number of companies depending on whether it is by capitalisation, sales, etc etc.

Thesaurus may have been a pruner for a number of years under a different name - like many of us.

rhythm method

2nd Nov 2001, 02:35

I can't believe it!!!!!!

I finally can agree with The Guvnor! Raw Data has posted the odd reply in the past which could be criticised, but I'm sorry this time his defence of British European is justified (and those of you who know me can tell I work for the opposition!). The financial benefits of a Dash vs an A320 work in different ways. Less holding depending on destination, lower operating costs, etc.

Now Thesaurus with 15k hours commercial (just about to leave myself open for loads of abuse!!!... how thick a pencil did you fill in your logbook with?) ought to know that a pilot apologising because they "couldn't get above the weather" means very little. Perhaps a jet wouldn't have got above the same weather that day. Certainly most 146 are limited to 26,000ft in icing conditions at present, and that was what was initially promised to Thesaurus. He travelled back the next day in the same weather (How can you be sure? Had he looked at Metform 214/215 each day?). Was the jetstream in identical positions and levels both days? I seriously do query Thesaurus's credentials!

As for using Raw Data's comments to form commercial decisions about using British European for company travel... sorry but Mickey Mouse decision making like that would imply you've thrown your own toys out of the pram!

Back to the real thread....

Are BHD giving preference to bmi at the detriment to the other operators who have helped make the City Airport what it has become, and how stupid were the management at BHD who only last week told 9 check-in staff they weren't required anymore. On Monday morning, the lack of staff meant that BE's check-in queue was right out the door onto the pavement (and flight dispatch staff were needed to help out!). The ramp staff appear to be under-manned also. Are the airport now responsible for delaying services, and what will they do to remedy the situation?

Let's try to stick to the original post this time.

Phillipa Hole

2nd Nov 2001, 03:42

To all the children concerned, "What a load of B.ll..ks" Grow up. :p

SENATOR-7

2nd Nov 2001, 04:00

Thesaurus OR Captin Sir (Number One was b***ked because she forgot to call you Captain Sis).
ATPL,15000 hours????,in command of a public transport jet aircraft, Degree in business administration, my bank manager, my company, my employees, my friends in BEA, Mr. Fyne, Mr. Jack walker (Sadly he is not with us anymore) Mrs. Tatcher, duke of west minster, Sadam hussain, threats, threats, threats, threats, threats.

WHO THE F***K YOU THINK YOU ARE?

:mad: :mad:

dik dastardly

2nd Nov 2001, 06:34

Back to the original thread..
the last 24hrs have seen an increase in BE check-in desks to 4 which is something a little more realistic.
On the subject of the Dash8, a friend in local government tells me that his department will no longer be using it following their experiences this week. Aparently they arrived expecting a 146 to be greeted with a turboprop which was also late.
On board there was only one cabin attendant who was rushed off her feet between trying to complete a service and take complaints from angry passengers about the aircraft and a shortfall in catering. A later party from the same office elected not to go to LCY and instead went to LGW (so at least no revenue lost for BE). That's how it was told..so don't shoot the messenger!
It would appear that some business pax do pay attention to aircraft type. Personally, when I go to Manchester I tend to use BFS as the emb145 gets me there quietly in 30mins.

snooze_ya_lose

2nd Nov 2001, 10:20

Well, this appears to be about even-stevens then, half of you for RD, the others agin! Interesting how some folk that RD has disagreed with in the past are so quick to jump on the bandwagon.

As it is quite clear that thesaurus had "withdrawn" his custom from BE before the real argument started, I can't see how RD can be criticised for what he said. Some may see it as insensitive, but I would rather have somebody like him defending my company than some of the limp-wristed PC types who post here.

Advising others to not use BE, just because you have a disagreement with an employee on a supposedly anonymous forum, is nothing short of petty and vindictive, and displays a remarkable lack of business sense.

The Guvnor is quite right in his comments; the customer is NOT always right- even BA and Easyjet think that! Why do you think it is that both have instigated ruthless check-in closure procedures to try and ensure on-time departures? Sorry, but the ideas espoused by Zulu are what you tell the customers... few people in airline managment believe that.

Unfortunately, PPRuNe seems to have descended a long way from being a forum for professional pilots; it now seems to be full of passengers and journos looking for inside info. If we as pilots have to temper all our comments because a customer might be watching, I'm not entirely sure where the value lies.

It also appears that the principle of anonymity has been thrown out the window by some of RD's colleagues, and that in particular (if true, and we only have the word of thesaurus for that) is very worrying. I absolutely agree with vref +50: PPRuNe and the real world should be kept quite separate.

Finally, having done some long-range email questioning of colleagues in the UK, it seems that one of the people in this thread is "gilding the lily" somewhat... just remember that people aren't always what they seem. In this connection, it would be interesting to know what company thesaurus allegedly runs (but I doubt he will- or can- oblige).

IMHO, it is the mark of a true coward to attack another whose identity you have established, whilst hiding behind anonymity yourself. It seems the concept of honour has long departed from modern life, particularly in this case.

tilii

2nd Nov 2001, 13:24

snooze_ya_lose

Unfortunately, PPRuNe seems to have descended a long way from being a forum for professional pilots ... If we as pilots have to temper all our comments because a customer might be watching, I'm not entirely sure where the value lies.For a chap with just five posts to his credit (or detriment), your pompous elitist approach to this website seems a little over the top.
:rolleyes:
If you are truly "not sure where the value lies" in PPRuNe, I respectfully suggest you bog off until you become more aware. :D

Tommy-tanker

2nd Nov 2001, 16:09

Raw D after reading several of your posts you do appear to be a little above your station and not the most diplomatic, however saying that on most of your points in this thread I do agree with you.
Thesaurus is obviously not what he/SHE says, some one of their supposed position would certainly not act in such a purile way! An ex pilot would almost certainly have far better means of accessing met if they were really interested in checking the weather prior to taking a flight. There is a distinct aroma in the air generating from a farmyard!!
Oh and tilli, it appears that you have a higher degree of pomposity than those you slate, judging by your often all to vocal comments! :eek:

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: Tommy-tanker ]

tilii

2nd Nov 2001, 16:23

Puerile, TT, puerile :eek: :D :eek: ;)

snooze_ya_lose

2nd Nov 2001, 17:06

tilii:

For a chap with just five posts to his credit (or detriment), your pompous elitist approach to this website seems a little over the top.

If you are truly "not sure where the value lies" in PPRuNe, I respectfully suggest you bog off until you become more aware.

You really are a foul-mouthed little fellow, aren't you? Not to mention arrogant and pompous.

For your information, the length of time served on PPRuNe does not determine the right to hold an opinion- see earlier in this thread where that point was amply made. Further, you should be aware that many folk here change their username from time to time, including me- I have been visiting this site since the days when it was only R&N, and that in text only. Apart from anything else, doing so resets the tiresome message count.

Finally, I have watched your spats with RD and have to say that he always ends up looking twice the person you evidently are.

MOR

2nd Nov 2001, 17:21

Hmmm... interesting!

Having read this, I too find it hard to believe that thesaurus is who he says he is, in fact it looks to me more like a colleague with an axe to grind from BHD.

I did a little checking (I work for BE too), and as far as I can tell from our records, the event described by thesaurus may never have happened.

So, thesaurus, let's do this... you furnish me with the dates, times and flight numbers of the flights in question, and I'll confirm (or otherwise) the veracity of your story. After all, you are the (ex) "customer", and I'd like to do all I can to ensure the facts are known and the situation remedied (wrt this thread if nothing else).

I'm pretty sure that Raw Data was reacting to what others have noted as the "manure factor", and, whilst not always subtle, he is entertaining!

I also have to agree with others, removing your business from an airline on the basis of one bad flight, followed by the childish "outing" of Mr Data and subsequent threats, and then telling other companies not to use the airline (if ANY of it is true), is very poor business judgement. A good businessman will choose on the basis of price and suitability, not a temper tantrum.

carlos vandango

2nd Nov 2001, 17:21

poor old dik dastardly. Posts a perfectly reasonable comment to be greeted with curt response from Raw Data followed by gangland warfare. He then posts an update and you're still at it!

tilii

2nd Nov 2001, 17:37

Arrogant ... pompous ... perhaps. Foul-mouthed and little ... certainly not. You can surely do better than that, can't you? Interesting reaction. And why do you feel the need to change your name if you've been around for so long? Ashamed of what you've posted in the past, perhaps. :D :D :D

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

CaptAirProx

2nd Nov 2001, 20:32

I will be ignoring the childish trivia, and will respond to the original thread. Dik dastardly, it has taken the Dash 8 1:10 to 1:15 average flight time since I have been operating it, and thats nil wind. The block times are averaging 1:20. It would be interesting to here from an A320 geezer to tell us what the airbourne and block times are for his/her mount. Any offers?

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]

twinboom

3rd Nov 2001, 01:13

In contrast to some other contributors i start with the working assumption that Posters are who they say they are until proved otherwise (rather than vice versa) See my remarks on "conspiracy vs. cock-up" - on previous, unrelated, posts. So:

Thesaurus I am disappointed that you have not, so far, responded to my invitation to join the confidential TCAS ("Twinboom's Conciliation and Arbitration Service") Programme -- Setting up 'Thesaurus @ pprune.org - and so advising me - would be a good start: else my working assumption above starts to look a little questionable.

Perhaps it might help to assure you that, on purely geographical grounds, you are v. unlikely to encounter RD in the flesh! - but I personally would be very unhappy to have permanently lost you and your organisation/colleagues valued custom, however understandable your current position.

Back to the originators Point/Question

NO significant change visible at BHD check-in this Friday afternoon, but HQ fully apprised of situation + potential consequence(s) and working on it.

derbyram

3rd Nov 2001, 02:08

Indeed twinboom they are watching very very closely, to say the least. As always, observations from the sharp end are always appreciated.

exemouth

3rd Nov 2001, 02:23

DerbyRam you are obviously a h/o type. whats your opinion of how rawdata represents your company?

SENATOR-7

3rd Nov 2001, 03:13

Tresaurus OR Captain Sir

AH I think I`m gonna have to arrange for a psyc a psyc a psyc, sorry Tresausrus do mean psychometric> AH thanks I bter get started

1km=999m 1kg=999gm
1m=99.9cm 1gm=3oz
1cm=2.54mm
also,
Dash8:cruising alt. 39000m above the wx.
cruising speed 457km
when powered by CFM56-SA1 giving
25000kgf with the mixture fully fwd.

A320:cruising alt. 16000m in the crap
cruising speed about 270km give & take
when powered by pw120 giving about
19000kg again give & take with
mixture leaned.

I think I start again 1km=999,1m=......
How I am doing tresaurus?

Raw Data

3rd Nov 2001, 03:36

Hmmm, not sure how to follow that!

Fascinating thread, looking forward to Thesaurus responding.

One small point for exemouth, I don't represent BE on this forum, I represent myself... all comments, opinions, etc are mine and mine alone. As far as PPRuNe is concerned I am a private individual and make absolutely no claims to speak for BE. That Thesaurus has (allegedly) discovered my identity doesn't change that- the forum is supposed to be anonymous.

Capt PPRuNe

3rd Nov 2001, 04:19

Next person to put a reply in here that includes swearing gets barred. Don't need it and won't put up with it. If you can't debate or argue and only have the capaciity for expletives and silly, one line comments do everyone a favour and go elsewhere!
:mad:

Capt Chambo

3rd Nov 2001, 13:21

CaptAirProx:

In zero wind the flight time from BHD to LHR, in tha A320 is about 52 mins.
The block time (from the timetable) is typically 1hr 20 mins.

I hope that answers your question.

P.S. I just love this thread!

The Guvnor

3rd Nov 2001, 13:43

So identical block times for the DHC8 to LCY and the A320 to LHR then. I think that pretty much proves Raw Data's point! :D :D :D

keepitlit

3rd Nov 2001, 14:34

Most of the flights are 1hr 10min from off to on stand,flight time going in to LHR is about 55mins to 1hr and 5mins,going back to BHD flight time is around 50 to 53 mins or 1hr 5 mins block to block.
The extra time on the timetable is to allow for unexpected delays which happen once in a while(none since operating out of BHD).
Therefore if a pax expects the flight to take 1hr 20mins then anything less is a bonus.

Raw,as for making money on the route,well lets see,just approaching end off week one,
Min loads 85% of which there have been few.
Normally 100% plus the option for the A321 on the route.
I think its doing a bit better than your Bristol!

I glad your not JEA/BEA spokesperson on this forum as your doing a good job at upseting enough pax.

So I think you'd be better accepting rule 1

P.S. whos the low cost carrier looking to do Gatwick? hhhhhmmmmmmmm

If our little A320 gets up your nose just wait till you see the mess an A321 will do!

Read it and weep!
Life is like a wheelbarrow,its all in front of you! :D

Rgds K.I.L.

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]

Phillipa Hole

3rd Nov 2001, 15:56

It was a necessity for BE to down grade from the 146 to the D8 on the LCY route, as the load factor was between 20-30% hence each flight was losing money. The difference in flight time/ block time is approximately ten minutes. Rotations have increased on the service, which allows passengers the flexibility that the business community requires.
Oh and Thesaurus, the schedule for the winter was adjusted for the Dash 8's extra block time, further more in the winter the Dash cruises at a similar level to the 146. As such an experienced pilot, you would know that the 146 used most often on the BHD-LCY cannot cruise above 25,000ft in known or FORCAST icing conditions.
BE has been restructuring to try to cut its overheads and if using Dash instead of a 146 means the company will still be operating this route in 6 months time then I do not mind spending another 10 minutes in an aircraft.

As far as BMI with the Bus is concerned, horses for courses. Passengers travelling to LCY will be out of the terminal before the LHR passengers have got to the baggage carousel. Obviously LHR is the preferred destination if you are going to travel onwards.
:cool:

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Phillipa Hole ]

Raw Data

3rd Nov 2001, 17:09

keepitlit: leaving aside your obvious loyalty to BMI, you miss the main point- yields and yield management. It matters little how full the aircraft are if the yields aren't there- just ask Go or Ryanair about that on the Scotland-Dublin routes.

Now it is absolutely obvious that most companies are haemorrhaging money at the moment, hence the recent spate of layoffs and aircraft withdrawals. Unfortunately, BMI fall into that category, and clearly more so than most as recent events bear out. I say that with absolutely no happiness whatsoever, I have been on the receiving end of company downsizing and bankruptcy a couple of times and I know exactly what it feels like. Your previous post where you mentioned "kicking people when they are down" is quite out of order, I was simply stating the facts. If it is worth anything to you, I've been there, I sympathise and if it was within my power to do so, I'd employ all laid off pilots tommorrow morning.

Turning to your point about customers, as I have said I do not represent BE, this is not a Customer Service forum, and the right to say what you think within the established rules is the basis of this forum.

Now, you may think that I shouldn't say anything that could be construed as being arguable by a passenger. I say that this is a Professional Pilots Rumour Network, where (unfortunately in my opinion) large numbers of pax and journos now check in hoping to get the inside scoop. I know, from the number of emails I have received in the last couple of days, that I am simply saying what most pilots think.

Rule 1 is a myth. Most people instinctively know that, and some of the posts here confirm it by both quote and example. The reason we all have Customer Service departments is because of that- their job is to bridge the gulf between the often-wrong passengers and reality. All CS departments know that many disputes are unwinnable, and that seemingly-normal people can turn into rabid beasts when it comes to complaining.

For example- sitting in SOU some years ago, we delayed departure as EDI, GLA, ABZ etc were all 200m in fog. I was accosted by a pax who had been on the phone to Bracknell, and he informed me that the wx was fine and that I should stop *^@~ing about and get on with it. By Rule 1, I should therefore immediately depart- but we all know that Rule 1 is nonsense. There was no easy way to reach agreement with this person; he was, as many pax are, completely unreasonable and quite ignorant of the basics of aviation (although he thought he was an expert).

Another example- just last week, a pax refused to sit down because he couldn't have the seat he wanted (due to a computer outage in check-in). By Rule 1, we would have been delayed for an eternity sorting out and would have missed our slot. In fact, he was told to sit down or get off- which met with hearty applause from the other 109 pax who were being delayed. Try applying Rule 1 in that situation.

It is important to realise that oft-quoted, pithy statements do not necessarily constitute reality. It is also worthy of note how many people that bleat on about Rule 1 are guilty of breaking it.

The other thing you perhaps need to realise is that often, people on PPRuNe are not who they seem. There can be layers upon layers of deceit and subterfuge, and sometimes people who claim to be one thing (ie a professional pilot) are actually another (ie the press)- hence the big red warning. Sometimes, it turns out to be a colleague on a point-scoring exercise.

In the case at hand (assuming you believe all that has been posted), the business had already been lost, and the subsequent threats regarding employees and suppliers are childish in the extreme and represent poor business judgement, as other have noted.

Others have already questioned the veracity of friend Thesaurus. I hope he can furnish the requested details so that we can check the facts, but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't really want to say any more on the subject, on this thread, as it has drifted way too far off topic. Email me if you want to continue the discussion.

be142736

3rd Nov 2001, 17:43

RAW DATA, It's nice to see that you only think about the pilots! What about all the cabin crew and back room staff that have been or are about to be made redundant from the company that you so strongly defend? They don't even seem to merrit a mention? It's nice to see that you hold them in the same contempt that you seem to hold every one else who isn't a pilot for BE? :rolleyes: So please crawl back into the hole from which you came and give us all a rest!!!!!

flypastpastfast

3rd Nov 2001, 17:48

Just a point to make, on page one of this thread, some person (fandango or something) indicated very strongly that business travellers always prefer jets to props. I must be the exception. I really really enjoy prop aircraft (its my hobby after all) - even when on business. Give me a turboprop any day - a proper aircraft.

As regards London city services, the big advantage is the speed on ground, getting out/in airport, and general lack of delays.

I can't understand the vitriol in this thread, as if I want to fly to LHR I do so, if I want to go to city, I do so - and that is what most people on business do. I can't quite grasp the mentality regarding never using british european again, because on one occasion a flight was changed/delayed - that's just dumb.

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: flypastpastfast ]

Tino

3rd Nov 2001, 19:09

Thesaurus,
what does the amount of money on your account have to do with this topic? Your reply was simly sad.
You may be a CEO or whatever, it does not give you the right to use a FREE forum in order to deliberately discredit people and use your so-called power to change peoples opinions. I for one know that every airline has its mishaps, and if you were a real industry leader you would know that.
Also, The normal cruising level for a flight London to Belfast will be about the same for turboprop and Jet, with one difference, the prop will be more efficient...
I am not deliberately going after you, but I have a feeling that you have overreacted and that you have a deeper lying cause for this. Next time, try to keep your "powers" out of this forum, or we could all start this way, and you would maybe find it suddenly a lot harder to get new slots for example...

CaptAirProx

4th Nov 2001, 03:23

keepitlit. Thanxs for the info on your block times etc. I find this quite interesting. However, in reply to the latter part of your post I beg to differ. Since BMI have operated out of BHD I have seen more delay inducing problems at the airport than at most other times. You said you have had none since operating here. Is this due to the "big brother" attitude displayed by your airport staff since working here? Isn't it normal for airlines to increase the scheduled block time to account for delays etc. You make it sound like BMI have introduced a revelation. I wish BMI the best of luck out of BHD. But please remember that you are just another airline like the rest of us and your A320/321 really doesn't make me jealous at all. Yes I would like to have the opportunity to fly one. But I'm quite happy flying my wobbly prop from an airport that we are able to WORK with our colleages on the ground. I suspect we can actually say we have flown a real aircraft at the end of the day, that displays real aircraft "feel". You may percieve this as bitterness from my part but I do wonder how long the BMI ego at the city will last. Please come down to earth and join the rest of us mere propeller/whisperjet drivers at some point, I would certainly prefer to work with you as opposed to against you.

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]

keepitlit

4th Nov 2001, 15:28

My replys are only as a defence from the slagging weve got since the news was released,as for flying the bus it is at the end of the day another aircraft and am just lucky to have had the chance to have a go.
Iwould gladly go back to driving a turboprop as it was good fun.
I wasn't trying to state that it was better than anything else or "be in the clouds about it".
I remember when i started to get paid for the privilage,all that mattered was
1. Aircraft
2. Money
3. Quality of life

As i am sure most of you are aware the roles soon reversed to,

1. Quality of life
2. Money
3. Aircraft

So please dont take any offence,I just try to express my thoughts in these crazy times.

Raw,I just try to give our side,no hard feelings,Keepitlit

:D

Rgds K.I.L.

Raw Data

4th Nov 2001, 23:39

Nope, no hard feelings, I just try to do the same!

CaptAirProx

5th Nov 2001, 01:42

Keepitlit, no hard feelings either. Just wish a lot of other guys in your position (not necessary BMI) would think the same b4 they speak.

Best Western

5th Nov 2001, 21:12

Perhaps BE have a short memory... History is a great thing.

All BE have to do is look 100 miles down the road from BHD to see what happens when you swith a 146 to a turboprop.

About four years ago CityJet had a great idea to downsize to a S2000 and up frequencies. Just at the same time that BD launched the A321 from the same pier. (little and large)

Great Idea... but did they ask the fare paying public? No... they flew to EGHH instead! Within six months, the 146's were back, but the passengers had been burnt once. CityJet were off the route six months later- Handing the route to BE, who also lasted six months!

Rule 1 ... SLF don't like aircraft that look like they have come straight from a Casablanca set! They may be six months old... but you try telling that to a business person who thinks he is getting a second rate service for a similar price to that shiney new A320 parked next door.

Rule 2.... If SLF don't have a choice between Prop and Jet... ignore Rule 1. They have no choice!

[ 05 November 2001: Message edited by: Best Western ]