British European and BHD
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British European and BHD
It would appear that Belfast City Airport have a very short memory. Was it not operators such as JEA and BRAL who made this airport a success only to find their operations now squashed into 2 check-in desks each to make way for BMI!
On the other hand, do BE really think they can compete with BMI's A320 when they now run a full time Dash8-200 to LCY?? OK, so they give out champagne and food but it takes 1hour 30 airborne. Can't see that route lasting for too long.
On the other hand, do BE really think they can compete with BMI's A320 when they now run a full time Dash8-200 to LCY?? OK, so they give out champagne and food but it takes 1hour 30 airborne. Can't see that route lasting for too long.
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Here's a clue for you.
What are the comparative costs of operating an A320 as opposed to a Dash 8, on a pax/seat/mile basis?
Somehow I think it will be BMI struggling to make money...
What are the comparative costs of operating an A320 as opposed to a Dash 8, on a pax/seat/mile basis?
Somehow I think it will be BMI struggling to make money...
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On the subject of BE @ BHD, the start of the winter timetable saw the surprising return of their CRJ on the BHD/LBA service. The surprise of course being that it was exactly one year ago that BE withdrew the CRJ from this service, claiming that the economics of the CRJ were not suited to the sector lengths.
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Thesaurus, you display the standard ignorance of airline operations that is so common in the travelling public.
All airlines have unserviceabilities and delays, I myself have been stuck in the US waiting for BA to get a serviceable aircraft, for three days! Using your logic, I would immediately refuse to ever fly BA again, but that would be a stupid thing to do.
In general, the time taken by a slower aircraft to get to London City is about the same as a faster aircraft that has to hold at a beacon whilst awaiting an approach into LHR, then taxi for 20 minutes to get to the stand- but you apparently missed all that. That is the reason that the LCY routes are growing very strongly at the moment.
I didn't miss the importance of the check-in point, it isn't debateable. The question of viability on the route is- the most important factors being low operating costs and low admin costs. Less desks=less rent (it is obviously a balancing act), and a Dash 8 will always be cheaper to operate than A320's.
Finally, if you really want a clue as to the relative merits of each case, try looking at how much trouble BMI are in at the moment, compared to how much trouble BE is in. Note particularly the number of aircraft that have been grounded and crews made redundant- 117 I believe.
Effiency is the name of the game now.
All airlines have unserviceabilities and delays, I myself have been stuck in the US waiting for BA to get a serviceable aircraft, for three days! Using your logic, I would immediately refuse to ever fly BA again, but that would be a stupid thing to do.
In general, the time taken by a slower aircraft to get to London City is about the same as a faster aircraft that has to hold at a beacon whilst awaiting an approach into LHR, then taxi for 20 minutes to get to the stand- but you apparently missed all that. That is the reason that the LCY routes are growing very strongly at the moment.
I didn't miss the importance of the check-in point, it isn't debateable. The question of viability on the route is- the most important factors being low operating costs and low admin costs. Less desks=less rent (it is obviously a balancing act), and a Dash 8 will always be cheaper to operate than A320's.
Finally, if you really want a clue as to the relative merits of each case, try looking at how much trouble BMI are in at the moment, compared to how much trouble BE is in. Note particularly the number of aircraft that have been grounded and crews made redundant- 117 I believe.
Effiency is the name of the game now.
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Raw Data, it doesn't matter what you say..Thesarus's actions speak for themselves. If passengers don't like it, they won't travel on it. I have yet to meet a passenger who prefers travelling on a turboprop to a jet. Although passengers will travel on props if it gets them where they want to go, they are unlikely to to get on one when there's a shiny jet sitting beside it heading for the same city. Moreover, drop the condescending attitude to the travelling public..they pay the wages (even if they don't complete the return trip). A full BMI 320 is gonna make a lot more money than an empty DH8-200. The early LHR was 25 overbooked yesterday..did those 25 climb on the DH8 to LCY? No. Maybe they would have if it was a 146.
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Raw Data ..I love the attitude !How dare a customer /guest/passenger/slf have an opinion ! Carlos is correct THEY pay Your wages!Mind you trying to book a flight on your website at the moment is enough to put a person off!! No timetable details!!Can't book on line! blimey keep those flights secret and then you won't be troubled by ANY pax in the back!!Ah well ..always have GO ..they don't seem to be troubled by the weather and seem to be a sensible price as a lot of BRS and STN pax are discovering 
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Raw Data,You should go back to basics like your name sake.
Rule numero 1."The passenger is always right".
I dont take kindly to your comments on the state of our Company with regards to the numbers of job loses as this affects alot of us personally those sort of comments you should keep to yourself.
You seem to have the desire to kick people when they are down
As for the loads on our LHR route the aircraft was to be an A320 but Im sure you will see for yourself that some of the rotations have had to be change to an A321 due to demand,oh and thats 196 seats at 35,000 feet in the clear blue skies compared to 50 on a 56 seater aircraft at 19,000 in the crap.
As for holding,Worst case ie about once a week we would hold for 20 mins,but this is accounted for in the time table.
Just accept it,there is plenty of room for all of us.
Rgds K.I.L.
May the hairs on your A*se turn to drumsticks and beat your b*lls to death.
Rule numero 1."The passenger is always right".
I dont take kindly to your comments on the state of our Company with regards to the numbers of job loses as this affects alot of us personally those sort of comments you should keep to yourself.
You seem to have the desire to kick people when they are down
As for the loads on our LHR route the aircraft was to be an A320 but Im sure you will see for yourself that some of the rotations have had to be change to an A321 due to demand,oh and thats 196 seats at 35,000 feet in the clear blue skies compared to 50 on a 56 seater aircraft at 19,000 in the crap.
As for holding,Worst case ie about once a week we would hold for 20 mins,but this is accounted for in the time table.
Just accept it,there is plenty of room for all of us.
Rgds K.I.L.
May the hairs on your A*se turn to drumsticks and beat your b*lls to death.
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Thesaurus: Perhaps Raw Data was due a little criticism. However, your diatribe was so far over the top in length and threats that it appeared the work of a totally arrogant bully.
You say that you have some 15,000 hours in command of public transport aircraft. All I can add to that is my relief that I have never been one of your crew members.
You say that you have some 15,000 hours in command of public transport aircraft. All I can add to that is my relief that I have never been one of your crew members.
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Carlos Vandango : correct regarding aircraft choice, and the point I was making was the relative profit potential of different types, that of course assumes both are full. I wasn't making any comment on the numbers that actually travel, or marketing, or anything else.
gul dukat: try reading what I wrote. Customers are more than entitled to opinions/feelings/whatever, as we all are. However, most reasonable people like to be equipped with the full facts so that they can make informed decisions. Opinions or decisions arrived at in the heat of the moment are very rarely reliable.
Thesaurus: you too need to read what was actually written, rather that just assuming things.
For a start, my opening statement was comparative, not definitive. English comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.
As most businessmen choose to fly at peak times, for generally understood reasons, the point about the respective flight times and delays is perfectly valid.
Regarding fleet/crew disposition within our company, you have chosen to hear a very one-sided view. Yes, we are (at the moment) retiring one fleet of four aircraft, but we are also expanding our other fleets, the net result once all acquisitions are complete should be a larger fleet overall.
Similarly, regarding staff levels, although the process is not yet complete, my understanding is that very few currently employed pilots will end up unemployed, due to current expansion. One thing is for certain, no pilot on the main seniority list will lose their job- only contract and ad hoc staff are at risk. There may be the odd exception, for example those nearing retirement who are on the main list, etc.
If you are as experienced as you claim to be, you would also know that all aircraft must be used to the best advantage, and this does sometimes mean using a different aircraft on a route in order to maximise efficiency. You have clearly, once again, misread what I said- I said "routes are growing strongly". Obviously, that is an overall statement, not just referring to BHD. A route can "grow strongly" from 0 to 40, but that is still better served (in efficiency terms) by the smaller aircraft.
Finally, it beggars belief that anybody would take a perfectly reasonable difference of opinion on this site, and turn it into a personal vendetta against an individual, including attempting to threaten their employment. That says far more about you than it says about me, and such blatant misuse of this site should be of far more concern than anything I have said.
Your post (and threatened actions) are malicious and completely uncalled for.
Good luck with your attempts to get at me, and thank you for showing your true colours.
gul dukat: try reading what I wrote. Customers are more than entitled to opinions/feelings/whatever, as we all are. However, most reasonable people like to be equipped with the full facts so that they can make informed decisions. Opinions or decisions arrived at in the heat of the moment are very rarely reliable.
Thesaurus: you too need to read what was actually written, rather that just assuming things.
For a start, my opening statement was comparative, not definitive. English comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.
As most businessmen choose to fly at peak times, for generally understood reasons, the point about the respective flight times and delays is perfectly valid.
Regarding fleet/crew disposition within our company, you have chosen to hear a very one-sided view. Yes, we are (at the moment) retiring one fleet of four aircraft, but we are also expanding our other fleets, the net result once all acquisitions are complete should be a larger fleet overall.
Similarly, regarding staff levels, although the process is not yet complete, my understanding is that very few currently employed pilots will end up unemployed, due to current expansion. One thing is for certain, no pilot on the main seniority list will lose their job- only contract and ad hoc staff are at risk. There may be the odd exception, for example those nearing retirement who are on the main list, etc.
If you are as experienced as you claim to be, you would also know that all aircraft must be used to the best advantage, and this does sometimes mean using a different aircraft on a route in order to maximise efficiency. You have clearly, once again, misread what I said- I said "routes are growing strongly". Obviously, that is an overall statement, not just referring to BHD. A route can "grow strongly" from 0 to 40, but that is still better served (in efficiency terms) by the smaller aircraft.
Finally, it beggars belief that anybody would take a perfectly reasonable difference of opinion on this site, and turn it into a personal vendetta against an individual, including attempting to threaten their employment. That says far more about you than it says about me, and such blatant misuse of this site should be of far more concern than anything I have said.
Your post (and threatened actions) are malicious and completely uncalled for.
Good luck with your attempts to get at me, and thank you for showing your true colours.
Does anyone have anything useful, preferably first-hand, to say about the original subject of this thread? My understanding was that we/BE are contracted to have six check-in desks at peak times so that is what BHD should man-up to. (however 2 off-peak would not seem unreasonable.) If this ain't happening then the originators question needs answering and action.
Thesaurus I have about half your number of posted hours, majority Jet-Command which I do still practice and - as it happens - also an MBA. Thank you for your welcome feedback I would wish to respond in a more constructive way but this B-board is showing a "blocked" e.mail for you. Mine isn't, please advise yours, 'twill of course go no further.
Zulu
Of course we all (save RD!) understand the point you are making - I find myself that re-stating the cliche thus:
"The customer may not always be right but he/she is always the Customer"
and acting accordingly is a good recipe for on-going successful business relationships.
...andhas the minor advantage of reducing your two rules to one!
Thesaurus I have about half your number of posted hours, majority Jet-Command which I do still practice and - as it happens - also an MBA. Thank you for your welcome feedback I would wish to respond in a more constructive way but this B-board is showing a "blocked" e.mail for you. Mine isn't, please advise yours, 'twill of course go no further.
Zulu
Of course we all (save RD!) understand the point you are making - I find myself that re-stating the cliche thus:
"The customer may not always be right but he/she is always the Customer"
and acting accordingly is a good recipe for on-going successful business relationships.
...andhas the minor advantage of reducing your two rules to one!
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I don't mean to jump on any band-wagon BUT (once again,unfortunately)I am appalled at the attitude displayed by RawData. The man/woman (sorry Thesaurus) to whom you replied in no way deserved such a vitriolic and scathing response. I would join those directing you to the sound advice from Zulu.
I hope you never reach a serious management position at BE or they are in REAL trouble!!! To turn a grievance on a legitimate point into an arguement on the finer aspects of the english language is one of the most ignorrant and condescending things I have ever read.(I was in no doubt what you implied in your reply. The point of language is to communicate. The grammar is one point but most comprehension comes from the underlying implications. We can't all have misunderstood you)
The situation presented by Thesaurus was simple enough to understand and could have been explained and mitigated quite easily by a balanced and sympathetic reply. To turn it into an issue where a customer is insulted (yes, insulted!!!) by a BE representative on a public forum for having an opinion contrary to that of RawData or against British European( IN THE CURRENT AVIATION MARKET) is beyond belief.
You do not deal with a complaint by resorting to critisising someones grasp of english........SHAME ON YOU!!!!
(Fortunately, having worked at Brit. Euro. I know RD is the exception rather than the norm and I do agree that a new Moderator for the BE guys and gals would be appropriate!)
I hope you never reach a serious management position at BE or they are in REAL trouble!!! To turn a grievance on a legitimate point into an arguement on the finer aspects of the english language is one of the most ignorrant and condescending things I have ever read.(I was in no doubt what you implied in your reply. The point of language is to communicate. The grammar is one point but most comprehension comes from the underlying implications. We can't all have misunderstood you)
The situation presented by Thesaurus was simple enough to understand and could have been explained and mitigated quite easily by a balanced and sympathetic reply. To turn it into an issue where a customer is insulted (yes, insulted!!!) by a BE representative on a public forum for having an opinion contrary to that of RawData or against British European( IN THE CURRENT AVIATION MARKET) is beyond belief.
You do not deal with a complaint by resorting to critisising someones grasp of english........SHAME ON YOU!!!!
(Fortunately, having worked at Brit. Euro. I know RD is the exception rather than the norm and I do agree that a new Moderator for the BE guys and gals would be appropriate!)
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In reply to 682ft AMSL my understanding was that BE couldn't get rid of their CRJs until next March under the current climate, so they may as well use them. But I was suprised to see them on the Leeds route.
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Dons mediator hat...
Before this all turns personal (Ooops! Missed that by about 15 posts...), I think Raw Data and Thesaurus (What would be in a Thesaurus as another word for Thesaurus...?!), both of whom are entitled to their opinions, re-read this thread:
RD: "Thesaurus, you display the standard ignorance of airline operations that is so common in the travelling public."
Can't see you standing at 1L and saying that to the suits as they board...so why here?
Thesaurus: "I have also banned my employees from travelling with your airline. etc..." and other, let's be fair, fairly fire-and-brimstone respones.
Hmmm, if that's your reaction to the opinion of one employee, based on a response on PPRune, I'm not sure which airlines will be left in the world you'll let your employees travel with!
The problem I see is this:
Most passengers have to fall back on Rule 2.
Most crew have to learn Rule 1.
Perhaps both parties could take a step back, dare I say it apologise? and get back to what could have actually been a useful thread about BHD/business travel/bmi etc.?
Before this all turns personal (Ooops! Missed that by about 15 posts...), I think Raw Data and Thesaurus (What would be in a Thesaurus as another word for Thesaurus...?!), both of whom are entitled to their opinions, re-read this thread:
RD: "Thesaurus, you display the standard ignorance of airline operations that is so common in the travelling public."
Can't see you standing at 1L and saying that to the suits as they board...so why here?
Thesaurus: "I have also banned my employees from travelling with your airline. etc..." and other, let's be fair, fairly fire-and-brimstone respones.
Hmmm, if that's your reaction to the opinion of one employee, based on a response on PPRune, I'm not sure which airlines will be left in the world you'll let your employees travel with!
The problem I see is this:
Most passengers have to fall back on Rule 2.
Most crew have to learn Rule 1.
Perhaps both parties could take a step back, dare I say it apologise? and get back to what could have actually been a useful thread about BHD/business travel/bmi etc.?
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Thesaurus,
I appreciate Raw Data can come across as a bit of a know all at times but having re-read his post I can't find anything remotely vitriolic in it. I'm afraid you've gone a bit OTT in response and I'm inclined to agree with the comments of Lou Scannon.BTW if you're going to patronise Raw Data regarding the standard of his spelling make sure yours is beyond reproach or you may look a little foolish.
[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: EPRman ]
[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: EPRman ]
I appreciate Raw Data can come across as a bit of a know all at times but having re-read his post I can't find anything remotely vitriolic in it. I'm afraid you've gone a bit OTT in response and I'm inclined to agree with the comments of Lou Scannon.BTW if you're going to patronise Raw Data regarding the standard of his spelling make sure yours is beyond reproach or you may look a little foolish.
[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: EPRman ]
[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: EPRman ]
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Interesting thread.
Couple of thoughts.
1) I agree completely with Raw Data when he says (to paraphrase him somewhat) that success doesn't come in big packages. If I was running a regional operation, I'd be more inclined to add more frequencies with smaller aircraft than have one or two flights a day with larger ones. Passengers - especially business travellers - want convenience. I'd rather fly NOW in a DHC8 than in five hours from now in an A320.
2) "The customer is always right". Wrong. Let me quote this from Tom Peters: "When Southwest Airlines CEO Herb Kelleher gives customers a terrific deal on an airplane seat, he makes it clear that his emloyees come first - even if it means dismissing customers. But aren't customers always right? "No, they are not" Kelleher snaps. "And I think that's one of the biggest betrayals of employees a boss can possibly commit. The customer is sometimes wrong. We don't carry those sorts of customers. We write to them and say, "Fly somebody else. Don't abuse our people".
It will be interesting to see if - in Thesaurus' case - Jim French is a Kelleher kind of boss.
Couple of thoughts.
1) I agree completely with Raw Data when he says (to paraphrase him somewhat) that success doesn't come in big packages. If I was running a regional operation, I'd be more inclined to add more frequencies with smaller aircraft than have one or two flights a day with larger ones. Passengers - especially business travellers - want convenience. I'd rather fly NOW in a DHC8 than in five hours from now in an A320.
2) "The customer is always right". Wrong. Let me quote this from Tom Peters: "When Southwest Airlines CEO Herb Kelleher gives customers a terrific deal on an airplane seat, he makes it clear that his emloyees come first - even if it means dismissing customers. But aren't customers always right? "No, they are not" Kelleher snaps. "And I think that's one of the biggest betrayals of employees a boss can possibly commit. The customer is sometimes wrong. We don't carry those sorts of customers. We write to them and say, "Fly somebody else. Don't abuse our people".
It will be interesting to see if - in Thesaurus' case - Jim French is a Kelleher kind of boss.
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The Guvnor
That's fine, Guv. No right thinking person would argue that anyone is right all the time, be they customer, employee, employer or even The Guvnor.
But what about when the customer is right in that he/she has a legitimate complaint? Surely you do not condone Raw Data's approach to Thesaurus, do you?
[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
That's fine, Guv. No right thinking person would argue that anyone is right all the time, be they customer, employee, employer or even The Guvnor.
But what about when the customer is right in that he/she has a legitimate complaint? Surely you do not condone Raw Data's approach to Thesaurus, do you?
[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]