Question: Why are ATC always "Sir"?

[QFIhawkman]

Hello gents,

A genuine question for you ATC types regarding the practice of pilots addressing controllers as "Sir":
I once heard a controller tell a student, "Son, they call YOU sir, NEVER the other way around!"
Does anyone know why we do it, or indeed where the practice started?

Please note that this is a genuine enquiry as to the origins or reasons of the said practice. I don't get my knickers in a twist about it, neither should anyone else, so any "comedy" posts along the lines of "because we keep you in the air" aren't welcome thank you! I respect the work of our controllers, and am just after a serious reply, fact or speculation!

Many thanks all.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It's surely just a polite method of greeting a gentleman who's name you do not know? I've been doing it since I was a kid, and continued to do so throughout my aviation career. They were "Sir" and I was often "Sir". There was no suggestion of any subserviant behaviour on either side.

Such niceties of our language are lost in modern culture...

As for the controller who told his trainee that pilots call him "Sir" and not the other way round....... sorry, I don't have time for that sort of person.

[Lifes2good]

Its not as often heard as it used to be. I think it has probably crept in over the years from the days when a lot more civil controllers came into ATC from the military side. Or may'be its just some pilots who are ex military?????:)

[145qrh]

"You should never call an Air Traffic Controller sir because it might give them delusions of adequacy.....":eek:

Well thats what an old training Captain once told me.....completely in jest:)

[Eric T Cartman]

To paraphrase a well known military expression :
Pilots call ATCO's "sir" & ATCO's call pilots "sir" - the difference is, the pilots mean it ! :)

[QFIhawkman]

It's surely just a polite method of greeting a gentleman who's name you do not know? I've been doing it since I was a kid, and continued to do so throughout my aviation career. They were "Sir" and I was often "Sir". There was no suggestion of any subserviant behaviour on either side.

Such niceties of our language are lost in modern culture...

As for the controller who told his trainee that pilots call him "Sir" and not the other way round....... sorry, I don't have time for that sort of person.

Well, they exist in all walks of life. It just made me wonder whether this was an engrained way of thinking in the towers of this world!

Thanks to all for the replies. I'm personally in agreement with Heathrow here, it's only manners. Not often seen today unfortunately.

[zed3]

Uurm..... was it not...cur.....!???

[garp]

I personally like to use "Sir or Madam" whenever a pilot has done something for me, ie a good rate of climb or descent, accepting another level etc. In the same way I get called "Sir" whenever I was able to deliver a good service. By being friendly but firm you obtain the best relationship, even if this relationship only lasts for a short period. Be good to the pilots, they'll be good to you. Simplistic but it has worked and still works for me.

[issi noho]

I thought it was done to upset the lady.

[QFIhawkman]

I personally like to use "Sir or Madam" whenever a pilot has done something for me, ie a good rate of climb or descent, accepting another level etc. In the same way I get called "Sir" whenever I was able to deliver a good service. By being friendly but firm you obtain the best relationship, even if this relationship only lasts for a short period. Be good to the pilots, they'll be good to you. Simplistic but it has worked and still works for me.

Good reply.

Thank you.

Still doesn't explain the practice though!

[rolaaand]

Hi QFI,I suppose HD's and garp's replies are just about spot on,addressing a pilot as sir or ma'am is a polite way of speaking to someone who'se name you don't know and especially if you have done us a favour like expediting or taking a different level to fit our plan. And to be honest it sounds more professional than calling you mate,squire,mucker or chief!
It's not something I do though,not that i'm impolite on the frequency or don't thank you if you've helped me out,it's just that I don't think I've ever called anyone sir in my life!I was never in the military so it's not something I would have been used to doing.I'll always address you with your callsign.
As for pilots calling me sir-it happens now and again,usually from the Americans some of whom have those old fashioned "sir and ma'am" manners that you just don't get in Britain any more,it's polite and friendly.

[QFIhawkman]

Hi QFI,I suppose HD's and garp's replies are just about spot on,addressing a pilot as sir or ma'am is a polite way of speaking to someone who'se name you don't know and especially if you have done us a favour like expediting or taking a different level to fit our plan. And to be honest it sounds more professional than calling you mate,squire,mucker or chief!
It's not something I do though,not that i'm impolite on the frequency or don't thank you if you've helped me out,it's just that I don't think I've ever called anyone sir in my life!I was never in the military so it's not something I would have been used to doing.I'll always address you with your callsign.
As for pilots calling me sir-it happens now and again,usually from the Americans some of whom have those old fashioned "sir and ma'am" manners that you just don't get in Britain any more,it's polite and friendly.

Wel thanks for the replies yet again.

Unfortunately, some seem to have missed the point! (Yes even you Roalaaand!)

PLEASE read the lead thread!

I was wanting to know WHY TOWERS AS OPPOSED TO CAPTAINS CALL THEIR SUBJECTS SIR!! (Have you all got it now?)

I KNOW it is lovely to call each other sir, manners and all that......

I was asking though why towers say yes QFI, and QFI says yes "Sir".

Anyone have any trouble with this post now?

(I can't believe I've had to post that in that particular manner, god help the world!)

Prove me wrong controllers.......

QFI

[ATCO1962]

And I can't believe you posted what you just have, QFI. After all these polite replies, which boil down to common courtesy, you haven't seemed to understand that everyone has answered your question. Some people use "Sir" when they have the time/feel so inclined, and some don't. It's not in our books so it's up to the individual. There's no partcular history or reasons apart from those offered.

Looking at your lead post, which you've encouraged us to do, there's nothing in the English language that I know of that gives us the intent of what you think you want. Take a deep breath, re-read the replies you've got and understand that you've got what you asked for, SIR!

[Voel]

ATC: ABC, confirm you're on level 65 or 85?
Pilot: Affirm
ATC: ABC, I say again. Confirm you're on level 65 or 85?
Pilot: Affirm
ATC: ABC, affirm what!!!!!
Pilot: Affirm Sir.

[rolaaand]

Wel thanks for the replies yet again.

Unfortunately, some seem to have missed the point! (Yes even you Roalaaand!)

I was wanting to know WHY TOWERS AS OPPOSED TO CAPTAINS CALL THEIR SUBJECTS SIR!! (Have you all got it now?).....

I was asking though why towers say yes QFI, and QFI says yes "Sir".

Anyone have any trouble with this post now?

QFI

Sorry sir:E
As lifes2good said-it is perhaps a throwback to the military,which is a reason WHY sir may be used.If you read the quote i've extracted above,does it not contradict itself?On the one hand you want to know why towers as opposed to captains call thier subjects sir,and on the other hand why you(a pilot presumably!) says yes sir to ATC!
Having read your first post again though with the benefit of a good nights kip,I see what you meant.

[spekesoftly]

Why are ATC always "Sir"?
ATC are not always addressed as "Sir". Occasionally you may hear both ATC and Pilots use the term, as already explained by HD.

So your question is irrelevant, and based on a false premise. Clear enough?

[5milesbaby]

I was wanting to know WHY TOWERS AS OPPOSED TO CAPTAINS CALL THEIR SUBJECTS SIR!! (Have you all got it now?).....
You got a problem with all us other folk in ATC ie. Approach/Area? We can be pleasant occasionally which I think is your answer, its just the English nature of being pleasant, nothing else, both pilots and ATC should be respected for the job they are doing, and using "Sir" just emphasises the respect between each other. I won't use it often, but feel there are occasions where it should be.

[Pierre Argh]

Whatever reasons are given above, use of "Sir" is non-standard! There are, therefroe no reasons.. it is a practice (that I for one find slightly annoying)

When HD justifies it as a polite term when you don't know the name of the person you are addressing, one assumes he would regularly end his transmissions with Tony, Sergio, Randy, or Maria... or whatever the pilot's name was if he recognised them (I don't think so)?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorry Pierre... guess things are different in France (I assume that's where you are from your "handle").

I did not find the practice annoying in the slightest; in fact I found it all jolly nice!

[Whirlygig]

I was told by my instructor that it was used when the person saying "Sir" wanted to be rude! :eek: :ouch:

e.g.

"Isn't it polite of that ATC chap to call you Sir"!
"He wasn't being polite!"

Cheers

Whirls

[Neptune262]

Could it be related to the old military days? As ATCOs we are by definition Air Traffic Control Officers and all male Officers in the services should be called "Sir"

Just my two pennies worth!

[hangten]

i've never been in the military, and i was told as a trainee not to address a pilot as sir. but i still do it. it's just professional courtesy.
excuse me for being polite... :)

[Whirlygig]

Well, I don't particularly wish to be addressed as "Sir" and I would take exception to being called "Madam" - then you really would be rude!

Mademoiselle might be quite nice but Miss would be patronizing.

Cheers

Whirls

[Bart_Man]

If you look at the amount of non-native English speakers in aviation who have to speak English on the radio such as myself, the word "sir" is what comes the most naturally for addressing a gentleman who's name one doesn't know. Also, I think it communicates a certain level of respect... I've also had controllers address me as sir, it find it to be professional sounding.

[javelin]

Try calling the plummy controller at LBA Ma'am and she really lights up :E

Hi Sue :ok:

It's A Citabria !

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Some of the strange people on here who seem to be against the practice should listen to ship-to-shore communications where the use of "Sir" is far more common than on ATC frequencies...

Next time you're on your £500k powerboat in the Solent listen to Southampton VTS or Portsmouth QHM and you'll see what I mean..

Oh yes... one other thing. I'm a Radio Amateur and in the past I made contact several times with a well-known King who was an avid ham. When he first established contact with other amateurs, before names were exchanged, he would always refer to them as "Sir". Now if a King calls me "Sir" (and he did, several times) that's good enough for me!

[Beetlejuice]

If I ever get my Knighthood, then I'll be "Sir".

Until then, I'm just plain, ole " ****** Radar " !!

[ILS 119.5]

Have flown in and out of LBA many times, there is one female controller who does throw her teddy out if you call her ma'am I know of certain pilots who do it on purpose to see the reaction. There is also another female ATCO who calls us sir which I do not agree with, I would rather she gets her left from her right sorted out before calling us sir. I do not have a knighthood and therefore do not want to be called sir.

[QFIhawkman]

Thank you for all the replies.

All of the above being the case, I shall always refer to you controllers from now on as "**** knuckle".

I do get the impression from the previous posts that most controllers are anally retentive to a huge degree. God bless you all, but I hope to god I don't have to fly through your space anytime soon. (Unlikely since I'm military, thank the lord Jesus!)

All the best anyway, and take care in what you do.

QFI

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

ILS 119.5. I feel very sorry for the girl at LBA and for you. The use of the term "Sir", as has been explained on here plenty, does not indicate rank or subservience. It's a polite mode of address.

OK sir?

[FlightDeckDave]

Sir,

I'm surprised by the differering opinions on this thread of the use of 'sir' in our everyday language. To back up what HD was saying, I feel the term 'sir' is often used a polite and professional way of addressing someone who's name is unknown, and i would rather someone address me as 'Sir' rather than 'mate', 'son', 'mush' or whatever....

I often use the word 'sir' when working in a professional environment because it does show respect, and I think it sounds more assertive and confident. However if I know the person's name I would opt for that. In ATC i'm sure its just a short, quick and polite way of ending the statment your saying.

[120.4]

I believe that HC and FDD are entirely right.
I would refer to a police officer as sir; it is simply a mark of respect towards somebody you don't know personally. I guess originally it may also have been an acknowledgement of an ATCO's "authority" in a given piece of airspace but it certainly does not imply any superiority.

In "The House", MPs are addressed as honourable members but that doesn't imply superiority either. (As I understand it, using their name has a specific meaning and purpose relating to discipline)

Point 4

[RNGrommits]

As a military controller, I have always found it to be American military pilots who use Sir, or Ma'am (gender correct!) in their Rt. Personally I have always found it a bit quaint, but, if someone has the piloteness to call me sir at the end of their transmission, I have always been unfailing polite back, and also given them a bit of extra priority!? Similarly if someone is polite yet succinct on a LARS frequency I always make the extra effort too. Maybe that is just a lesson for life in general. I also (much to the CATEBs distaste) say G'day at the final transmission to an A/C. Not correct, but as the only LEO at this station no-one is going to correct me and if it makes the whole GAT world a nicer place to live in, who cares. A thank you for those who have gone a litlle bit out if their way to help you also does no harm!
Letters on a post card please.

[PPRuDe]

SIR- A form of professional endearment with a meaning expressed by the tone of delivery..varies from sir to cur as previously noted..doesnt come across well on HF

The tone of delivery was best demonstrated by ASCOT callsigns..if you put on your best public school accent and called them Arse_Carts you could almost feel the waves of animosity coming at you...reserved for special occasions

PPRuDe

[topo di radar]

Simply loved this thread! Meant to dip my finger in earlier but was too taken with the direction the thread was taking. The HD fellow essentially gave the most palatable and universally acceptable response, with another response correctly explaining it to be non-standard.

If there was to be a “history” to this practise it may very well relate to the days without radar when ATC’s were applying separation and procedures born directly from the information supplied to them by pilots. This absolute reliance on ATC guidance during procedural/non-radar control possibly elevated ATC’s to a level that deemed the use of the word “Sir” as par-for-the-course. This is however just my conjecture.

I have some ATC colleagues who use the word “Sir” with a frequency that matches the bowel movements of someone with dysentery and is equally as unprofessional as it cheapens what I would imagine to be nothing more than a mutual respect for each others careers.

To me, “Sir” or “Ma’am” is of no consequence, what matters are quick finger-on-the-button responses.

TDR

[Jinkster]

I am very funny about using the word 'sir' at a military base due to the fact of comment if ATC is a NCO - 'I actually working for a living'

:hmm:

[NudgingSteel]

Thank you for all the replies.

All of the above being the case, I shall always refer to you controllers from now on as "**** knuckle".

I do get the impression from the previous posts that most controllers are anally retentive to a huge degree. God bless you all, but I hope to god I don't have to fly through your space anytime soon. (Unlikely since I'm military, thank the lord Jesus!)

All the best anyway, and take care in what you do.

QFI

As long as you make it "**** knuckle RADAR" when requesting your next zone transit!

[African Drunk]

Was told by old military instructor that ATC should call all pilots sir as they were all commisioned and many ATC personnel were NCO's. This was just one of his many theories.

[5milesbaby]

Put it this way, I'm a polite sort of guy and think that pleasentries can have their time and place so will use them, but being a Manky boy I'm not going to be using "eh up ya nothern monkey", "mooooooooooooooo", or "nice one shag" on the RTF so for now "sir" or "madam" will do nicely and I'll keep the rest for the ops room thanks :E

[Shitsu_Tonka]

I often hear Sir only used by the controller when the pilot has already screwed up a couple of times on frequency.

So it may not be respect, more frustration.... S I R !

[Sonnendec]

Well, i usually call the pilots "sir" when i want to be polite in english, and "caballero" ("gentleman") when i want to be polite in spanish. No big deal.

Best regards.

[EpsilonVaz]

I think it's polite to call people "Sir" or "Madam". That's the reason I do it.

EpsilonVaz