Canadian PM Dumps Pilot after request to turn off cellphone and Blackberry

[RatherBeFlying]

Globe and Mail Article (free registration required) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060809.MARTIN09/TPStory/?query=bytown
The unwritten bylaw of Bytown: Fall in line or fall out of favour ... on a recent trip, the Prime Minister was asked by a flight attendant to turn off his cellphone and BlackBerry. Mr. Harper declined. The pilot then made a request, saying it was for safety purposes. The PM relented. But, at the end of the journey, one of his staffers gave the pilot some news: His services would no longer be required on prime ministerial trips.

The aviator should have known that this is the new Ottawa. In Harpertown, you fall in line or fall from favour.

I expect Canadian Aviation Regulations 602.08, 705.40(4), 725.40(3), 704.33(5), 724.33(3), 703.38(3), 723.38(3) will shortly be redrafted so the the Prime Minister is no longer inconvenienced:ouch:

[fly_high]

Surely when all's said and done, the Captain is in charge of any aircraft and his or her word is final?

[shon7]

I've seen numerous people using Blackberrys while taxiing and takeoff and it does not seem to impact the flight.

Isn't there only one documented instance where a cell phone/transmitting device interfered with the avionics -- that too when the instrument was in a cargo hold.

[Airbubba]

Is Mr. Harper an aide to the Prime Minister or something? Are the flights an Air Canada charter or military like Air Force One?

[con-pilot]

Man, I never knew that as a CAPTAIN I was God!:uhoh:

Maybe Canada should get a proper aircraft for their elected leader.

Doesn't have to be a bloody 747, maybe a Global Express? It is built in Canada.

[Rollingthunder]

Harper is the PM. That doesn't mean he is not a micro-managing prat.

The aircraft is a specially outfitted military A310. I've been onboard. It's semi-posh. The flight crews are military.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

Ok, so now phone calls are more important than aircraft safety (in the PM's eyes!) ... don't cha just love it! ... unless the phone itself was designed and permitted for use during a flight (which I doubt).

He obviously thinks he's above everyone else (in the clouds), but not when it comes to safety. Looks like this PM will find out possibly the hard way!

Why we're at it, why not allow all passengers to use mobiles as well?

The Captain made the right decision, I would have done the same.

[Taildragger67]

Might encourage him to put some flight-safe comms on board the CAF VIP fleet??

What a prat. Really helps anyone in authority trying to get someone to comply with a reasonable request. I hope this gets bigger airplay in Canada and he's forced to publicly apologise to the pilot concerned.

Back in the '80s the then Australian PM was filmed in his (moving) VIP limo not wearing a seat belt := ... it made the press and he quickly 'fessed up and paid the fine. Can't recall if his driver lost any points, though.

[Dream Land]

Ya, like the flight attendents never use their mobile after doors closed. :mad: I do understand that the commander must back up the crew though.

[reptile]

Refreshing news. I thought it was only in Dark Africa that we had to put up with this sort of political crap. :ugh:

[36050100]

Well Done Skip.

Services no longer required ?? Perfect. Some bu@@er else can have the inconvenience of transporting this prat around. Now if everyone did this, he would have to travel by road. That may persuade him to change his behaviour.

[Stubenfliege 2]

I've seen numerous people using Blackberrys while taxiing and takeoff and it does not seem to impact the flight.
Isn't there only one documented instance where a cell phone/transmitting device interfered with the avionics -- that too when the instrument was in a cargo hold.

Hi ya,

if my minds didn´t fails me, there was a few years ago a story in the Flight Int´l about cell phones and false fire warnings on board from Dash 8-4000 a few years ago.

When SAS introduced the de Haviland Dash 8-4000, there were several inflight cargo bay fire alarms. In all cases, after the subsequent emergency landings, it turned out that they were false.

The technical staff tried to figure out, what might triggered this this alarms. After a long, fruitless search, one SAS engineer was in the cargo bay (or room, what ever, as SLF I´ve never been in this part of a Dash 8), when his cell phone rang. And, in the same moment, the fire alarm was triggered, too.

That´s the story, as I remember it.

With regards

[Taildragger67]

I've seen numerous people using Blackberrys while taxiing and takeoff and it does not seem to impact the flight.
Isn't there only one documented instance where a cell phone/transmitting device interfered with the avionics -- that too when the instrument was in a cargo hold.

This gets done to death on other fora. In one recent forum, the main conclusion (as far as I could determine) was that the jury's still out on avionics interference, but there is undoubtedly interference to comms eqpt (ie. little noise you get in headphones when a nearby mobile gets switched on - multiply that by 50 or 100 or 300 or however many POB and you have the potential for important R/T transmissions to be missed by the tech crew :eek: ).

ATEOTD it's not allowed, so that's the rule and it should be followed. Just because you've seen numerous people using those horrible little enslavement devices doesn't mean it's ok := . So have I and I've no problem in telling such people to turn them off. Are they really so important that they can't wait until we're on stand?

Moreover in this case it's a rule promulgated by the Canadian Government of which this :mad: is the head; he should be following his government's own rules.

[madherb]

Some info on PED emissions at: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar06/3069/5

[plt_aeroeng]

It seems to me that the technical rationale for the rule, while a valid discussion on its own, is not the only primary issue here. Rather, it is the difficulty VIP flight crews have in exercising safety authority and the related arrogance of VIPs.

The event shows that Canada’s Prime Minister (elected primarily on an accountability and law and order platform) believes that he is above all rules. Unfortunately, extensive precedent shows that such Canadian politicos’ attitudes towards flight crew are widespread.

During the late ‘90s, heard of a well known but hushed up incident wherein the military captain of an air force Challenger VIP jet was nearly turfed in similar fashion. He had had the temerity to tell the Prime Minister’s aide that the aircraft could not land at the intended destination due to weather. Said aide not only did not accept this decision, but insisted via a loud and arrogant hissy fit that the aide would make such decisions, and the captain should land forthwith. The captain stood his ground. Only the steadfastness of the VIP squadron CO allowed him to keep his position.

Another famous case was that of the incident in the late ‘80s when the PM’s wife discovered in Toronto that she had left her extra shoes back in Ottawa, and ordered the aircraft to go back and pick them up. The captain was resourceful enough to quickly decide that the aircraft was unserviceable, and an RCMP officer was duly delegated to find a Toronto shoe store and find replacement shoes.

It was around that time that it became practice for a “shadow” aircraft to follow the PM around in case the primary became unavailable.

I suspect that other nations have similar problems with their VIP flights, but Canada does seem to have a poor track record.

The only spot of sunshine in this incident is that, since it made the national press, at least some letter writers were able to draw conclusions about the character of the PM.

[rotornut]

Did anyone notice that the report didn't give names or specifics of the alleged incident? Unless the reporter is willing to give more details, I would treat this as hearsay and nothing more.

[saudipc-9]

I couldn't agree more that this smacks of a lot of rubbish. There is also alot of ignorance being shown here too. Is Harper an aide to the PM? Good God come on guys let us learn abit about your northern neighbour !!
For those who care, here is the link to 412 Sqn who is the VIP Sqn for Canada.
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/8wing/squadron/412_e.asp
For those who wish to slam Harper I would say that he is the best PM Canada has had for quite sometime. He stands up for what he believes instead of dithering about like some headless cockroach!

[sox6]

What's the big deal - its not like he clubbed a seal of anything.

[sec 3]

Yup, typical canadian leader. Nice guys until the election is over and won. Soon after they get arrogant and invinceable. BTW,thanks guys! I'm an ex canadian living abroad and thanks to you I know who the PM is, not that I give a F**K!!:E

[Ransman]

Isn't there only one documented instance where a cell phone/transmitting device interfered with the avionics -- that too when the instrument was in a cargo hold.
I had a problem a couple of times whilst operating a BAe Jetstream 41, PFD & instrument screens blanking etc. On each occasion, (different flights) a pax sat in area of 4C and 5C had switched on a laptop. Incidents were ASR'd.

[BORN4THESKYS]

Absolute wa**er!!!!! Yes as far as Im concerned the captain has overall responsibility for the flight. I really get fed up with VIPS and the like and their don't give a s**t attitute, and total ignorance and contempt for the safety of the flight they are on.

They are all but a very select few the same, lick ass to get in, and then do what the hell they like anyway! I really do wonder about democracy sometimes!!!!

[saudipc-9]

Just for those who are shooting off about the PM.

By LAWRENCE MARTIN

Friday, August 11, 2006 – Page A17


In response to a paragraph in a column saying the Prime Minister and staff had given tough treatment to a pilot who wanted their electronic devices turned off, Sandra Buckler of the PM's communications team has written to say I was on the receiving end of bad information.

Her views of the matter, which do not coincide with my own, are as follows. "For the record, the Prime Minister does not own a BlackBerry. He and his staff fully respect all of the rules of Transport Canada and all electronic equipment, including laptops being turned off before takeoff. I know of no dispute. I cannot speak to the motivations of the pilot."


Looks like a few of you have some humble pie to eat!!!!!!!

[Rollingthunder]

No, he's still an arrogant prat. I don't believe anything out of the PMO. Can you trust anyone who admires Mulroney?

[GreatCircle]

Sandra Buckler, the Director of Comms for Harper, has a history of producing u-turns when fat-boy PM has one of his temper hissy fits...

Whilst it is unsubstantiated in this instance, all the others of Harper heading off the deep-end cannot be coincidence.

Now, where does Stevie boy sit on matters such as....

- Purchasing Boeings for the Air Force that they didn't want ?
- Supporting the Defence Minister O'Connor, when clearly the old boy is
in the early stage of dementia ?
- Banging the evangelical drum like Georgie, and taking guidance from his
Pastor ?
- Answering direct questions with direct answers ?
- Why did he fly to Cyprus, when an empty A310 positioned in Larnaca would've made more sense ?:rolleyes: Let me think....

Somewhat off track, but a telling indictment on someone who likely did throw a hissy fit, because the commander of the A310 told him to stop gabbing on his HelloMoto in a fetching shade of blue...

[pigboat]

Not to question Lawrence Martin's integrity or anything, but he is The Cretin's biographer. His partiality, or lack thereof would be suspect. :p

[brucelee]

Harper shakes his kids' hands on the first day of school. Harper doesn't like the press. Harper is a cowboy, either with him or against him. This is the change we wanted. This is the change we got. Are we happy now? I would have kicked his ass right off the airplane. That is not his airplane. That airplane belongs to the taxpayers of Canada and like any other airplane in Canada the PIC is the boss. Period. Harper is an asshole and this country will see this slowly but surely. :D

[saudipc-9]

Sour grapes is all I can say! You mostly sound like a Liberal supporters group who would like nothing more than to have "Mr Dithers" back in office.
PM Harper, I admit, does not have the most out going personality. However, he has displayed leadership to this country and that is something not seen for quite some time.
he's still an arrogant prat
Now if we really are going to look at who is arrogant then we must look at an ex PM namely Jean Chrétien, who is the epitome of arrogance.
Don't confuse leadership with arrogance. Harper is showing leadership and this country will see this slowly but surely. Once it gets its head out of the sand.

[GreatCircle]

Nope... politicians by their very nature are all arrogant gits.

Trudeau...a charismatic leader ? No, a philandering ego with serious issues.

Clarke - no chin. Nor guts.

Campbell... a bar room singer in high heels and pink lips

Mulrooney - an arrogant taker with little or no morals

Chretien - dithering buffoon with a twisted face

Martin - an embarrassment. And a liar

Harper - all of the above, aside the labido. Just yet. Plus he loves the evangelical Bushoid. Much worse.

Not one I'd trust with the command of a complex turbine...no make that a TTC streetcar...

[brucelee]

Pretty scary list I agree. The only one worthy of any respect was Trudeau. Like him or hate him, he had balls and a personality. He was respected by leaders all over the world and gave Canada a good reputation. The others, I would tell them to put that phone away and do what you're told.:ok:

[rotornut]

Told you so...don't believe everything you read in the paper or on PPrune, for that matter;)

[pigboat]

Trudeau was so respected all over the world that the only heads of state to show up for his funeral were Fidel Castro and Jimmy Carter.

As far as worthy of respect goes, while my father was wearing his country's uniform and putting his ass on the line for it, Trudeau was wearing a Nazi helmet and riding his motorcycle around the lower Laurentians, scaring the **** out of the Jews.

[tsgas]

Who cares what sick political views, the anti Harper clowns have,this is an aviation forum, so go and stuff it.
None of your B.S. is going to influence the way that I cast my vote some the next Canadian election.

[GreatCircle]

Who cares what sick political views, the anti Harper clowns have,this is an aviation forum, so go and stuff it.
None of your B.S. is going to influence the way that I cast my vote some the next Canadian election.

Well said. Very eloquent.

So - would YOU have asked Steve, as PIC, to switch off his phone and other devices ? That'll bring it back on track.

[saudipc-9]

So - would YOU have asked Steve, as PIC, to switch off his phone and other devices ? That'll bring it back on track.
Actually it would not bring it back on track! Mr Harper had nothing to do with the so-called incident so the off track digression continues.
tsgas--nicely put:ok:

[GreatCircle]

The point is simply no matter who the "VIP" is - be it the PM, member of PMO, Kylie Minogue, Mike Myers, Mrs Smith the City Councillor from along the road, or even Mr Smith, owner of the corner store, has to abide by the rules and instructions of the PIC.

No-one is above this.

So back to my question - would anyone here, as PIC, IF Steve Harper had been yakking into the phone, instructed him to button it ?

[brucelee]

I have flown Chretien, the Mulroney family and other politicals. Chretien was a doughnuts and coffee guy and always did what he was told on board. As arrogant and flamboyant as the Mulroneys were, they were also abydant except when it came to customs. Mila was always over her limit. Hey folks, the PIC is the boss. There are no exceptions. It's the law.

[29chev]

The only one worthy of any respect was Trudeau
Oh my God you don't really believe that do you??
He was an ASs who almost destroyed this Country with his energy program and deficit spending... never mind his complete indifference to anything west of Ottawa or East of Québec City.
:*

[brucelee]

He always had the best chicks and the best cars. :p

[rotornut]

Really? I seem to remember one in particular - not the car.

[tsgas]

I wouldn't consider an MGB as "one of the best cars".
And as far as Maggie goes,A bit of a basket case,I.M.H.O.

[Azure]

This was posted on AEF:

According to my Mil friend.......

The incident occurred on a Challenger aircraft. It was NOT the PM. It was one of his staffers.....The PM was onboard

The individual was asked to turn off his laptop. He refused. The pilot pulled off the runway and went back and asked the staffer to turn off the laptop. He turned it off.

Upon arrival at destination a FA asked the same fellow to turn off his laptop...he apparently said it was OK to have it on in a civilian airliner so he was going to leave it on for the landing. The Captain advised the FA that he would be doing a "go-around" and they would not be landing until the laptop was turned off. The laptop was turned off.

The individual apparently sent a "snot-gram" to the MND and requested that they not have "that" pilot do anymore PM flights.

A memo came from the MND's office to the Squadrons that the PM's office was advised of the regulations and requested the information be deseminated to all the PM's staff.

Is that pilot doing anymore PM flights??? My friend does not know. He has done extensive flying of the PM and has advised me that the PM is extremely easy to get along with and abides by ALL the rules...no problem.

PS.....I am neither Liberal or Conservative inclined


--------------------

Kip Powick




End of story...except that I think the PM should kick some ass in his office!
:*

[20driver]

Sounds like that staffer is a real keeper. First rule of the job, never embarrass the boss. Second rule, don't do it twice. Hard to believe the guy was so thick that he did it twice. Interesting to see where the staffer ends up if this hits the CBC.
20driver

[saudipc-9]

I'll be willing to bet that the PM has had or will be having a one way conversation with his staffer.:ouch:

[RatherBeFlying]

Azure's post from AEF rings true as underlings do tend to be snottier than the big guy.

So why didn't Sandra Buckler arrange a public mea culpa from this underling? I thought the Harper team was focussed on news management.

[GreatCircle]

Azure's post from AEF rings true as underlings do tend to be snottier than the big guy.

So why didn't Sandra Buckler arrange a public mea culpa from this underling? I thought the Harper team was focussed on news management.

I bumped into Buckler (literally) at YYZ. I gracefully apologized. She believes she is high and mighty...and has an attitude that is indeed snottier than the big guy.

Now, I would LUV her on one of my services (unlikely as I do the bucket and spade brigade :} ), and turn on her cellphone....