What's the culture at Cathay like?

[jett15]

Hello everyone!

Wondering if I can get some feedback on this. I'm concerned about the "culture" at Cathay. I have heard that the folks at the training department don't particularly care for American pilots; that the culture there is very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style; that you're under the microscope all the time, even after getting hired; that you can be fired anytime if a couple of captains don't like you;that you have to be real submissive to the training/checking and line captains and thick-skinned in response to their egotistical treatment of you; that if you have strong "Republican/ Conservative" views you'll get put down; and that during training you're basically on your own - no real help during training, but lots of checking. Now, while I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing. I'm not trying to cause arguments here, but I'm not sure I can handle that kind of culture and don't want to end up at a place that's not suited for me or that I'm not suited for it.
:confused:
Thanks in advance for all the feedback.

[Basil]

Go to the market, buy a big button and sew it to your lip for the duration of training. Remove only to say "OIC" at intervals. Read up the detail of every training trip beforehand. Everything you do will be minutely recorded. The final line check consists of four sectors unless you've made a little boo-boo sometime in the sim in which case you will do two final line checks.
If you make it to final line check, don't expect a pat on the shoulder with "OK, that'll do; now let's go and have a chat." The Star Chamber will then analyse your training record and THEY decide if you've passed or not.
Watch what you say in the company bar at Cathay City. CX managers are accustomed to a non union environment and do not take kindly to adverse comment. Do not ever throw a handful of peanuts at one.
At times the company has an unfortunate ethos and I know of some perfectly capable pilots who have left doubting their own ability to fly.

Having said all that, CX have some good, caring trainers and, If your face fits, you will be given extra sectors to learn to do it exactly 'The Cathay Way'.
They were a good career airline and top quality outfit who demand high operational standards.

Don't let me put you off - Have a go!

btw I believe they used to ask about light signals in the interview questionnaire (computer, Ballard, must answer before next Q) could be out of date on that.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Training dept is fine, it is the checking department. Being American, expect low scores for your RT even if you have a degree in linguistics.

“very "old-world, stiff upper lip" British military style” that is one way of putting it. Depends on which fleet you are on. The 747-400 is the intolerable fleet for F/O’s. Numerous A**hole Capt’s on that fleet. Mostly checkers. I guess I will hear from them. Know of some F/O’s that went head on with a Senior Checker and now not suitable for command.

Remember it is a Captain’s Airline.

“Under the microscope all the time” If you join as an S/O, you will be jumping through hoops for the next 10-15 or so years (S/O, Junior F/O, F/O, Senior F/O, Capt). At any time you could be held back because of something on a Check or in the Sim. Do something wrong in the Sim (while not even your Sim), it can be marked on your file. All files are reviewed by management before upgrade, anything they don’t like, you may/will be held back. Automatic progression is not guaranteed.

Yes you can be fired at anytime. Ask the 49ers. If you have problems in the Sim on an upgrade (S/O to J F/O or joining as an S/O), you will be asked to leave. If you say something wrong or speak your mind to the wrong person you can be targeted. Example: Flying Manager picked up a wine bottle and an F/O stopped him for swinging it. Scene ensued. The last words of the Flying Manager was “I’ll have your job” and he did.

Sit there, shut up and you will be fine. You must realise, Cathay invented flying. As long as you have that attitude, you will be OK.

Don’t speak your mind, it will be held against you when you upgrade, even if your flying file is fine

“I'm not a troublemaker nor do I get in people's faces and I'm certainly used to the American way of doing things, if someone asked me for my views I'll explain them and back them up. I'm also not a kiss-up, stroke-your-ego, I'll do whatever you want sir, especially when I know it's all an ego/personality thing.”
Like I said, the 744 is the most dissatisfactory fleet followed by the Airbus. Not sure about the 777. Don’t think new joiner join on that fleet.

I am sure others have different views but the culture is, shut up, do your job. Don’t voice your opinion when at work and to whom when not at work (if you are based in Hong Kong).

Like I said, it’s a Capt’s airline. Captain’s will always receive higher marks in the Sim and on Checks than the F/O. It’s just that way.

It depends on which pair of glasses you look through and I am sure you will get different opinions. If you are on the old A Scale and get paid very well with all the benefits and a good provident fund, you will have good things to say, same if you came from a C172 and now flying a wide body.

Industrial fear is a well established at Cathay.

Oh yes, we are just in the process of cutting your pay.

Just know where you are on the food chain and you will be fine.

[Cripple 7]

and I got paid a lot of $$$$ on the A-scale

[subria]

I came from a C172 and I wear the same glasses as you are Mr. Bloggs.

[sisyphos]

I expected the worse when I started and wasn't disappointed.:yuk: :yuk:

this would be a fine company, but "training" is just a mess, it is really extremely hard to take sometimes.

the system is so unfair, you won't trust your ears in the debriefs,trust me..

keep in mind that upgrading is a gamble, if they don't like your face for whatever strange reason,you are out.

[Herk Pilot]

Everything you have written is very interesting. Is this particularly towards DEFO/DESO pilots or maybe North American based pilots or everyone?

Are you also saying the upgrade to Captain/command is not necessarily by seniority order or what your seniority can hold. Correct? Management can deny your upgrade for other than documented performance? It seems a little shady.....

May I dare ask if it is aimed any one race???

[preset]

Don't believe everything you read :=

[Mr. Bloggs]

DEFO’s will have hoops to jump but not as many as an DESO. CX does not discriminate on who they target. If you fail to know your place in the food chain/speak up, you will be targeted.

CX has been known to fail J/FO’s on their upgrade to F/O, just to hold them back on lower pay and less leave. The check ride was passed but the Review board found otherwise. Same goes for any upgrade.

Command upgrades are followed by seniority however when your time comes and you are not a good bitch, you will be found unsuitable for command and passed over by more junior members. This is a process to put you back in your place (on your knees bent over). Some resist but all get into position eventually.

I agree with Preset, don’t believe everything you read, especially from CX. If they are talking, they are lying.

Like I said, know your place in the food chain and you will be fine. If you can’t be a good bitch, then it may not be the place for you.

Just come in with eyes wide open.:sad:

[jett15]

Wow, I appreciate all the input... Very interesting stuff... Doesn't sound like a real happy place to work... I'm not sure that I can be "on" all the time...sounds like every day is like your initial interview... Do alot of guys leave? Have the check airmen ever lied in their critique/evaluation of someone just to trip him up?

Thanks again for all the feedback.

[HotDog]

Example: Flying Manager picked up a wine bottle and an F/O stopped him for swinging it. Scene ensued. The last words of the Flying Manager was “I’ll have your job” and he did.


To be fair Bloggs, you should have added that this Flying Manager is no longer the Flying Manager, nor is he still employed by the company.

[Team America]

So I guess there will be a few resignations soon judging by the comments and replies.
Why are you still there? Why not leave to a better airline? Why work in a job that treat you like that?

[hog tied]

Mr Bloggs,

You could not be more right on! Much about CX is so unique and great, it is a real pity the "eat the young" mentality fear and intimidation rule the company. I have never seen such a place, nothing like it in the US.

[sizematters]

shame on you all, frightening the guys like this......................
Cathay is made up like any other airline...95% nice guys and a few jerks % A#*Ho%es, plus the odd psychopath. It tends to be hard for Americans because you are only accustomed to the US system which assumes everyone is a nice guy unless he try's real hard and manages to prove he's a complete dick .....................Cathay just never starts from that assumption.......................

Many people leaving.......................No

why?? ..................Money............we also make a profit every year, so you don't have to worry about being furloughed with the 7 year industry cycle

still the US industry is recovering now so no need to suffer the humiliation of the Cathay training......................till the next downturn, have fun !!!

[Yeager]

People leaving? - yes, some are, not a lot - prob more to do so in the future. Why are they leaving? For a variaty of reasons of course. One reasons without doubt is the fact that CX is more checking than training - and yes CX is MORE checking than training compared to other airlines. Eg. the high number of failures during upgrades (the dudes have not gained enough positive training but rather negative "training" through checking) - sad, yes. CX would be such a better airline if they entered year 1980+ and changed the current philosophy, which simply does not belong in aviation.
Hong Kong, Polution, prob also a factor - though Im not personally to bugged about that.
So why are they staying? Pay is ok, but nothing out of the ordinary compared to the "national" carrier in Europe (prob also the US). Also a lot of the pilots in CX are from down under, where the pilotjobs are ****ty rewarded, and for them the CX deal is the best around (not a million miles from "home").

Anyways - dont leave (quit!) a fairly good job - but if not, definatly have a go here and judge it for yourself.

Best of luck
Y

[hog tied]

shame on you all, frightening the guys like this......................
C
Friend,

If the truth is scary, so be it. If you don't recognise the extreme absurtity of this company culture, you have only flown military or have lived with a raging alcoholic father (probably both).

If you are military, you wont feel the heat as you slide into a warming pot of water. You will be somewhat used to being jerked around, and childish politics driven by fragile egos (probably a good part of why you left the military in the first place!). It won't seem so bad because you will be getting more pay and have more time off. Remember, at this point in your career, you are probably looking for your final job, the rest of your life is a long time to sit in a boiling pot!

If dear old dad liked the booze a bit too much and had the indiscriminate temper explosion, you will feel right at home. You probably are used to pussy footing around the house, grateful that when a sibling is taking a beating the heat is off you, but never knowing when your next arse kicking is coming. If you were the step child of the family, you probably took more abuse than most. At CX this unfortunate soul is called a "Yank".

Yes, there are some great people in the training (checking!) department at CX. They, just like good old mom, will occasionally save your bacon, but sooner or later dad will find you.

It's not all doom and gloom. Put on a happy face, show proper respect, don't complain, and readily massage the ego of those training you , and you will probably be ok. Just remember you're in the cage with a gorilla while in training (which never ends here), and you are going to have to kick its proverbial arse. Oh, yeah, hope for a small gorilla.

Just don't screw it up, because if you decide to return to the mother land at some point the interviewers in the US have never experienced the "Cathay Way", and won't readily overlook a blemish in an otherwise impeccable record.

[ALPHA FLOOR]

We have a training department?

[Sqwak7700]

I will say that the training at Cathay is very outdated. The regional US carrier were I worked for some time had ten times better training. Cathay definetely needs to open their eyes if they expect to grow to the size of a real airline. This small time bull****t mentality is just not going to cut it.

But, talk to guys that have been here for a while, and they will tell you how bad it used to be. So, seek comfort in knowing that it is changing for the better. The airline IS growing, and therefore can not afford to hang on to this silly immature training environment. These same old "famous" assholes that everybody knows of will have to eventually retire and new blood will step in and improve the training department.

As bad as some people make this place out to be, I caution you to listen to both sides of the story. That is the best advise I can give you. Every story has two sides. I can guarantee you that you will only hear one side of it from this web-board. It would be pretty hard to hear the other side unless you were there during one of these "horror" training stories, or you knew someone in the training department. I've also heard some stories which amazed me, but you won't hear them told here either.

Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.

[skibeagle]

Sqwak7700:Someone did ask a very smart question in this thread; how many people are leaving Cathay? I dare anyone who works here to provide proof of so many pilots leaving Cathay. The attrition here is just about nil (excluding retirements). And that speaks for itself.


Watch this space Sqwak7700... lots gonna be going.... and lots not going to be coming either....

[jett15]

Hi,

Thank you for all the responses... Looks like I really hit a nerve... Based on what I have read, and I know there are two sides to every story and to take things with a grain of salt, but I'm not going to my 2nd interview with CX... I don't think I'll be happy dealing with all the **** everyone has talked about... I have a descent job with plenty of seniority and union protection here in the U.S., and I'm making money also. Don't want to take any unnecessary risks. Again, thanks for all the info and good luck to everyone!

[sizematters]

OK, guys, well done, frightened him off no problem, back to the bar for a few celebratory beers................don't want any of them american w@#kers joining our exclusive, overpaid club now do we .................................


hahahahah !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HotDog]

jett15, I would seriously question the value of union protection in US aviation.:sad:

[ERJDCA]

Jett15,

As an american here at CX i will add my two cents. I would have to agree with Sqwak7700 and Sizematters. The other Gents on this board have a few points but by reading their posts they lead you to believe this place is terrible. It reminds me when i used to ride in a United or Delta jumpseat and listen to the guys complain when i was a regional guy. Its not a bad place and personally i would leave almost any U.S. flying jobs-especially any regional job! It does in fact have its differences from what you are use too. Its a much more disciplined operation. I wouldn't be walking around running your mouth off. I have not had any problems with any trainers/checkers or have been treated differently. Their are a few to watch for but you tell me an airline that doesn't? My grades have not been below anyone, infact i have done quite well and have been above average on most. Yes, upgrades depend on past performance so prepare yourself! They expect a lot from you so just put in a little work. Its worth it.

I would too like to know what guys are leaving and to where?? What is considered a superb job these days? Anything tied with aviation is vulnerable however i think i can expect to have a job in 10 years and make a very respectable living. Where are the paycuts i keep hearing about?? Im not one to believe everything i hear but its been publicly stated that once the issues have been ironed out with the DEFO's the company will talk pay. I hope that to be true but im not going to be walking around ranting pay cuts because i dont see it to be possible to accept. And yes, i know the past.

Jett15, you have to do what is best for you but making a decision on not attending the second interview based on a few pprune posts is just out right silly. Feel free to PM.

Good luck.

[Mink]

Couldn't agree more. I don't work there, have not even interviewed (was offered, but had to turn it down due to military commitments). But to pass up the offer of a 2nd round interview based on some internet ranting and raving is nuts. Hell, if nothing else, consider it a free trip to HK and a chance to practice your interviewing skills in, what appears to be, one of the most challenging interviews in the business. You'd pay big bucks to some outfit like AirInc for that kind of practice in the US.

You never know what might happen, especially given the current $hitstorm in the Mid East. You might just get the job, and might actually want to take it, if the US airline industry take another header. Just seems like you're passing up a golden opportunity. Of course, if you're that luke warm on working there, then CX will probably pick up on that in the interview anyway...:hmm:

[Saturn]

I think now that things are starting to turn around in the US, some of our "boys" might have had enough and might "return" to where they once came. Some might return to the left seat and that is BASED ON SENIORITY. Some will get widebody seats with their seniority back and be commanders in a few years. Some might leave for others that are hiring. I know some that are presently interviewing elsewhere. I think most of the "yanks" are waiting to see what comes from RP04/07, growth talks and the pay scale. I venture to say that there will never be mass exodus but there will be exodus by next year. As skibeagle said on page 1, keep watching this site. Things have to get better and in the check and training as well.:(

[Kitsune]

For a little sanity try reading j32drivers post in the NWApilots wife thread...

[ACMS]

Holy Shi* do I work for the same airline?
I guess the 777 fleet is the best.:)
There are bad apples in any airline, we have a few but the majority are really good.
One of my pet hates is the yanks R/T, they do have rather a slack RT discipline, that works fine in the US but it doesn't cut it in Asia with up to 4 different nationalities in the flight deck talking to Tokyo control. Standard calls thanks.
................

[Jumbonomore]

Must be check and training talking. Now, is that "flap" or "flaps" 1/5/10/20/30. Is that 'final' or 'finals'. Standard??? If Cathay is 'standard' or has standard sop's, a lot has changed since I left. Note: Yanks singled out again. Oh well. I can't tell you how much better my life is without CX check and training; I mean checking. Carry on.

[Glacier1900]

I must ask; much of the world sees Canada and the US as the same. Are Canadians seen in the same light as Yanks in CX?

[Sqwak7700]

One of my pet hates is the yanks R/T, they do have rather a slack RT discipline, that works fine in the US but it doesn't cut it in Asia with up to 4 different nationalities in the flight deck talking to Tokyo control. Standard calls thanks.
................


...You're right. Some Japanese controller is gona get into a pronunciation argument when they have no clue on how to pronounce most english words themselves. Get a f-ing clue.

Where do you fly? ...Must belong to the "mandaitory" crowd. Brits and Aussies teaching Americans/Canadians how to speak english is like learning about sex from your parents. They might have been shagging since before you where born, but it certainly doesn't mean that they do it better. ;)

Think about this logicaly. Most of the world has no problem understanding the American English. It is the most widely spoken version. Get used to it and get over it. Jumping on some guy because he says "point" instead of "decimal" is idiotic. It makes you sound like the ass that you probably are. Let me guess, you go down to the bar and talk about what a great pilot you are? Actually, I take that back; you probably stay in your room and read Vol2P2 so you can regurgitate useless information to the other crew members on your next flight.

It cracks me up when these "RT wizes" get pissed off at pilots who check in with "hello" or "goodmorning". It is called C-R-M; maybe you'll hear of it in the future when you decide to join the rest of the world in implementing a concept that real airlines adopted back in the eighties.

Here is a "mandatory" english lesson for you. In the States we would call people like you "book smart". You can spit out all sorts of useless crap. But when the fitt hits the shan, you are the type that will crash with the book in your lap.:ugh:

[HotDog]

7700, how instructive, you are so right. I have actually learnt a lot from Americans about speaking the English language. Especially from your esteemed president Dubya. What marvellous CRM that gentleman posesses.

They might have been shagging since before you where born, but it certainly doesn't mean that they do it better

Talk about shagging, I reminis with great fondness on several past type conversions in the US of A where this lovely American lady enquired of me; "honey, have you slimed yet". Alas, she had a big fanny, which is again a different perception in the land of the free.

Ah yes, I do miss that yankee drawl. Herbs are erbs, solder is soder, colour is color and my good friend Cecil is called Ceecil. I also remember being mugged in the car park of the LAX Marriott Hotel, where I was told after relinquishing my wallet to "Have a good day". Great CRM.

[BuzzBox]

Judging by the arrogance of SQWAK's post it's not hard to see why some yanks have a hard time at CX.

Most of the world has no problem understanding the American English. It is the most widely spoken version.
Yeah, right...

Jumping on some guy because he says "point" instead of "decimal" is idiotic.
The "point" is that "decimal" is the correct ICAO terminology, used by most of the world outside the good ole US of A. The yanks might get away with non-ICAO terminology within their own borders - it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow.

:rolleyes:

[HotDog]

F-CUX, the British Empire may be dead but the breeding remains.

[Sqwak7700]

Judging by the arrogance of SQWAK's post it's not hard to see why so many yanks have a hard time at CX.
Yeah, right...
The "point" is that "decimal" is the correct ICAO terminology, used by most of the world outside the good ole US of A. The yanks might get away with non-ICAO terminology within their own borders - it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow.
:rolleyes:

...Actually, most of the world doesn't give a ****t about such stupid little details. And, its only a few anal loosers at CX that have made a habbit out of harrasing pilots on RT. Most CX pilots see through that crap and act like we all should . But there always has to be someone that has to prove to everybody how much of an ass they really are. Every airline has them, CX isn't the only place where they exist. These are the same people who will probably scream at their co-workers when they screw up. I can just hear you now; "...This is how the book tells you to do it..." Nothing new here :yuk:

I've flown in many places around the world, and as long as we all understand each other, nobody really gets all bent out of shape about it. :rolleyes:

[sisyphos]

working in china and complaining about non standard rt of americans at the same time is just another fine example how lost some of our guys are.

By concentrating on absolutely useless , irrelevant stuff, we at cx constantly waste a good part of our capacity ,which might be urgently needed elsewhere.

I never worked for an airline before where the pilots were so scared about doing something wrong, avoiding reporting of incidents at all cost as a result. But is it really that hard to understand that fear doesn't enhance performance ???

This training department has just one goal : to show how important there are.

But why is it an undisputable fact that there are so many airlines out there with a zero accident history AND a training department that doesn't put it's pilot under constant artificial threat ?

why is it that we have the highest upgrade/newjoiners failure rate AND well above industry average experienced guys joining at the same time ?


My suggestion would be that it is a great disadvantage that our DFO is not a pilot himself. There is simply no one within the organisation who is checking the checkers.

[Obscurum per obscurius]

As an Englishman who was lucky enough to learn to fly in America and as a Training Captain with CX, I am astonished by the B.S. I see spouted on this thread.

Some of the finest pilots I have ever had the pleasure to fly with and learn from are Americans, who will be equally astonished by the stupidity of what is being written by these so called professionals complaining about CX culture.

Here at Cathay we do things in a set way - by the book. If you don't, it exposes you, not necessarily as a bad pilot but as an ill-disciplined pilot.

Does saying "flaps" or "flap" or "decimal" or "point" make you a better or worse pilot - NO, but given the choice of the two why not take the more disciplined option? What are YOU trying to prove?

Why is it important, hopefully you already know the answer? If not then I highly recommend Lt. Col. Tony Kern's book "Flight Discipline". Have a look at his chapters on Procedural Discipline and Communications Discipline. You might learn why we do it the way we do, and by the way, the author is American..

All the training/check Captains I know in CX have one goal and one goal only; to get the trainee through successfully and fairly, believe me no one wants to write a negative training report.

So to any Americans out there considering joining - go for it, don't listen to the minority come and show us that they are the minority. I for one look forward to having a beer with you and congratulating you on building the best damn aeroplanes in the world!!

[junior_man]

Taipei controllers consistently say point instead of decimal, last flight into HKG, HKG controllers: point, not decimal.
Tokyo, point, not decimal, taxi into position & hold. Most all say good bye or good day. I keep hearing "cleared" to push (not pushback approved).
I like never asking for pilot reports on ride conditions. It is much smarter to climb up to the new altitude and get a crummy ride, then descend back down again, than to ask the guy up there getting a pounding what the ride was like. A good example of CRM that is.
Many things out here are not ICAO and it isn't just the Yanks.

Yes, there are some differences in the USA. Just like there are differences in many other ICAO countries. And, they are published, just like in other countries for you to read if you want to be prepared.
US is a bit different as there is much much more flying there. There are almost 19,000 airports in the US. 9,300 Air Carrier Jet aircraft and about 208,000 airplanes. Fresno has as many runways as LHR. One week out of the year there are more airplanes in Oshkosh Wisconsin than probably in all the EU.

But, when you climb into the US made 747 (I know you would really rather be in a 146), break out you US Jepps, get your PDC clearance and ATIS over Acars (all US) depart HKG while TDWR (US) watches over the weather, if it makes you feel better to bitch about America, do it. Generally this is known as xenophobia (except in the case of complaining about Dubya, then it is just good judgement).

Sure there are some dummies in the US. But, I don't think those drunks watching the "footie" over in the UK read Shakespeare when they sober up either. There are dummies everywhere.

When you complain about how bad the US is, how much have you actually seen? LAX, Maybe Vegas and a NY layover or two? Most of the complainers don't know anymore about the US than a redneck who watches the East Enders knows about the UK. So you watch "Cops" and think that is reality. Okay.

Don't like GW? Unlike Tony Blair, most Americans don't like him either and he didn't exactly win by a landslide. Don't like the current way the world is going? Neither do a lot of people. Think it is only the USA that behaves like that? Read a little history, things about colonial rule, what part of the world the last two world wars was started in, Ireland, the opium wars etc.. Every country has done things that weren't exactly right.

Now go visit the US. Go out to an airport and meet some pilots. Go meet a few airline crews. They probably will not start out telling you that you sound funny on the radio, and how Americans are much better pilots than your countrymen. Most of the Aussies, Kiwis and Brits are friendly too. Most are usually fairly well mannered. There are a few though, whose manners are poor. They think that it is polite to start out by insulting somebody elses country, telling him (or her) how bad every person and pilot from that land is and how much better and vastly superior the flying skills are of their countrymen. Maybe it makes those few feel smarter or superior. It really doesn't make you smarter or a better pilot, but whatever you think.

As far as Cathay, it is a great place to work. (Started by an American and an Australian with an American Airplane.) Just like any other airline, there are a few whose people skills are poor. But it is a good place to be. And, just like any other good airline, you are expected to do things the way they ask you to. No different than in the US or the UK.

Oh, and I am not a Yank either, just brought up to have decent manners by my parents.

[757manipulator]

All the training/check Captains I know in CX have one goal and one goal only; to get the trainee through successfully and fairly, believe me no one wants to write a negative training report.
With respect to that last comment, I am personally aware of at least 4 training/check Captains (Both HK, and UK Based) who have a well deserved reputation for having more than one goal..as you have prescribed, their actions rather than your sugar-coated description of the ethos at CX defies anecdotal as well as personal experience.
Perhaps rather than say CX operates in a "disciplined" fashion, it would be more accurate to describe the check and training function as "old school" or even "archiac"
As a new SO/FO/DEFO know your place...know that you know nothing, understand you are the bottom of the heap, know that CX aeroplanes fly differently to the ones (B777's and A330's) that you previously flew :hmm:

[geh065]

Now now, play nice children.

[SkyCruiser]

With respect to that last comment, I am personally aware of at least 4 training/check Captains (Both HK, and UK Based) who have a well deserved reputation for having more than one goal..as you have prescribed, their actions rather than your sugar-coated description of the ethos at CX defies anecdotal as well as personal experience.
Perhaps rather than say CX operates in a "disciplined" fashion, it would be more accurate to describe the check and training function as "old school" or even "archiac"
:hmm:


yes yes yes

[NZLeardriver]

Lets look at the facts. The majority of the traffic in NRT is from the USA, flown by US pilots, using US R/T.

Not true.


Fedex, United, NWA...all operate through there without issue. If the japanese cant understand, then they should learn to speak english correctly. US General Douglas MacArthur pretty much made that clear back in 1945.

So they operate without issue, or the Japanese dont understand? Which point are you trying to make here?
Just like the US controllers learn Japanese for the JAL and ANA flights? No, I am sure you also say that if they want to fly to the US they can learn to speak English so that the controllers there can inderstand.
You could also say, if you want to fly international you learn to speak standard english, or even standard radio terminology, regardless of what your native language is, English or not.

Also, what did US General Douglas MacArthur say about aviation terminology in 1945? I didn"t get your point.

[BusyB]

And you never will.
Wasn't it one of your by the book senior Checkers who did that no-hands go around in HKG not too long ago? Just goes to show that you can know how to build a plane and quote the books all day long, but you can only impress SO's with that knowledge. Flying the plane safely should be the focus, not how you sound.

If your knowledge of SOP's is as good as your knowledge of incidents you won't be with us much longer!!

The truth is that the vast majority of C & T's are excellent with a few that are not so good (just like any major airline). The main problem in CX is limited to one or two senior management (soon to be gone) that overrule the C & T's.

As for all this BS about RT my personal judgement is that if an individual has to make the same call 3 times to pass his message and someone else can do it in one there is a problem. In my experience this is not limited to one nationality, in the last month I have flown with 4 different nationalities who can't pass a straightforward position report.

CX operates to a pretty good standard and the C & T's maintain that. No-one who's prepared to do the work will fail in the long run. What applicants should be worried about is the fact that contracts in CX are changed as often as the management change their underwear.;)

[Glacier1900]

So, is there anyone with an opinion on the company culture at YVR Cx base?

[hog tied]

So, is there anyone with an opinion on the company culture at YVR Cx base?
Same as anywhere else. If you have the ability to go to a good N American carrier (Southwest, Jet Blue, even the legacies will hire again someday), do it! CX is not a bad alternative, but anyone who defends the rediculous system here has never seen how a good company and training staff treats its people. I have never seen anything like it.

If you like living with stress, where your job is your life, come here. Why don't more people leave? Because they make it just a bit too difficult. How are you going to find something else when an exorbitant amount of your time is spent in Hong Kong in the checking meat grinder? I suppose you will just pop over to the US during your sectors when it suits you. When it is time to leave, you will have to give 3 months notice, pay up in leiu, or have cx track you down at the new job. Good luck forecasting a new job 3 months in advance. It simply isn't an easy place to leave in many ways.

Once again, CX is not the proverbial death sentence. It's a great job with some of the best people to work with on the planet. You will give up a small part of your soul to be a part of it, and for the select few this will be the job you have been looking for. This is a great job for a Yank, but there are equally great jobs out there that make much better careers for the long haul, and you won't even have to defend your heritage.

[psy clops]

Okay, I really think that I need to add my comments to this. I’m a CX SO that was line checked earlier this year; consequently I feel that I am pretty qualified to comment on Cathay’s initial training. In short:

Initial simulator phase, all training done by one instructor: Fantastic guy with a very mature attitude to the syllabus. It was completely ‘training’ until the 528 (check rides). The check rides certainly included training too, with thorough and fair debriefs.

Line Flying Under Supervision (LFUS) phase. Often flew with based training captains, so had different trainer out and back. They were from Australia, UK, Ireland, New Zealand, Canada and the States. Without exception, they were excellent – and I mean ALL of them. Saying that, they did all expect you to have done quite a lot of preparation before hand – but then again, isn’t that our side of the contract?

Continuation simulators (including checks): Again, you would not want to arrive without having opened a book, but surely that’s the same in every country / culture / airline? Training? Yes. Checking – yes too (for the check rides), but I have never felt that my career is balanced on the head of a pin when I’m in the simulator(so far!!). In fact as a SO it means that I can actually get to do some driving, so I actually quite enjoy the sim time (I do understand that might be construed as a little weird!).

I have only experienced the SO side of things – I’m know that that there are very poor statistics in some areas of training, for example command upgrades. Clearly I have not experienced that part of CX yet, so I’m not going to comment on it. The one thing that I will mention is that some reputations seem to be much worse than the individual. Watch out for Capt X, he’s a hard ar*e has been heard a couple of times – but Capt X seemed fine to me...

Before I get hammered, I know that I have only been with CX for less than a year, and I know that I have only seen one facet of the training machine. Nevertheless, that part that I HAVE experienced has been professional and effective. I’m not saying that CX is perfect, I know it’s not, but IMHO it does get a pretty unreasonable slamming from a vocal minority at times.

Oh for the xenophobes, I’m not from the Americas, Europe, Asia or Australasia altho’ I was living in Oz before HK. Perhaps that has a bearing on my views?:hmm:

[hog tied]

– I’m know that that there are very poor statistics in some areas of training, for example command upgrades. Clearly I have not experienced that part of CX yet, so I’m not going to comment on it.
That alone should raise the eyebrows of anyone committing to a career here. That tidal wave on the horizon may not seem important now, but its coming!:uhoh: Flying the big turkey leg (747) is one of the easiest flying gigs I have had, but to watch some of these people here every flight is the proverbial mission to Mars.... they operate with such polish, I am continually amazed!

Oh, yeah... the fact that the subject of "checking and training" even comes up so often ought to tell you something. At most companies it is quite rare, probably only in passing, and only immediately before the rare training event. Let's see, does an FO (or capt for thet matter!) really need 2 RT's, 2PC's, a loft, and a three sector line check each year? Let's not forget about the FO command ex harassment sim thrown in for good measure, and perhaps the good deal crew up ad hoc sim. Man, what a great idea! And for the poor SO's there's even more fun to be had just getting to the show.

[Freehills]

That alone should raise the eyebrows of anyone committing to a career here. That tidal wave on the horizon may not seem important now, but its coming!:uhoh: Flying the big turkey leg (747) is one of the easiest flying gigs I have had, but to watch some of these people here every flight is the proverbial mission to Mars.... they operate with such polish, I am continually amazed!

Oh, yeah... the fact that the subject of "checking and training" even comes up so often ought to tell you something. At most companies it is quite rare, probably only in passing, and only immediately before the rare training event. Let's see, does an FO (or capt for thet matter!) really need 2 RT's, 2PC's, a loft, and a three sector line check each year? Let's not forget about the FO command ex harassment sim thrown in for good measure, and perhaps the good deal crew up ad hoc sim. Man, what a great idea! And for the poor SO's there's even more fun to be had just getting to the show.

Think this is a fair post. Who is to say what is right or wrong, whether flying a big turkey leg of 400 people is an easy flying gig, or should be approached as if it a mission to Mars. The culture in CX has tradionally been to approach every flight as if it is a mission to mars, with polish and professionalism and attention to detail. Some may see this as a good thing, others may be irked by it and see it as anal - especially if from an easier going flying culture.

Non standard R/T may work fine. Depending on what argument you see more powerful - don't hassle me for being non-standard, it works, or, why not make the effort to use standard, it takes no more time effort?

Some is driven by HK aviation culture, not CX. HKCAD is defensive, and IMHO, has a culture of needing to show that the unique system (of being part of China, but following completely different aviation policies) is justified. So spend a lot of time justifying it.

To be honest, your general attitude to some of this will also impact your ability to enjoy living in HK. If you don't believe you should adapt to HK, but HK adapt to you, you will be an unhappy bunny of an expat.

[ACMS]

Holy **** Batman there are some angry people in here!!:)
I am not a TC or STC or BTC. Never will be.
The 777 is the best fleet in CX, with the best Checkers. Fact
My ONLY beef with the yanks is their slack R/T.
I am not talking about saying point instead of decimal, that is being a little anal ( in fact I say it sometimes as well )
I would like them to phrase their altitudes correctly.
Saying "out of 3 FOR 4" is not safe. Remember that Flying Tigers 747 that crashed into the hills 10 miles short of KL RWY 33 about 15 years ago? hmmmm
He was cleared by Lumpur Approach to decend "TWO FOUR ZERO ZERO", but read back "cleared TO 400" Bang...........
Since then ICAO ( that's right ICAO, not Australian CASA ) changed the proceedures to say "altitude 2 thousand 400 feet" AND FOR VERY GOOD REASON.
Not all people have the aviation savvy the yanks have, which works great in the US. All I'm saying is that it doesn't work too well all of the time in the rest of the world.
Now if that gets me branded a ****** then so be it..............
cheers
ACMS

[geh065]

:ok: Well done ACMS. :ok:

[ERJDCA]

Same as anywhere else. If you have the ability to go to a good N American carrier (Southwest, Jet Blue, even the legacies will hire again someday), do it! CX is not a bad alternative, but anyone who defends the rediculous system here has never seen how a good company and training staff treats its people. .

Hog Tied,

Im not defending any system, or dissagreeing that Cathay runs things a bit different then the U.S. but your advice is to take JetBlue or Legacy over CX? Your kidding right? I have personally gotten PM's from a few Delta guys who are currently employed that are leaving and comming to CX. One AMR guy is in Training now that i know of who was also was currently employed with AMR. I have many friends at JetBlue (9 to be exact) who are now thinking if they are recalled or get another reasonable job offer they will leave. Most people aren't looking for a place to just go, rather spend a career.

If someone has a job offer for FEDEX or UPS waiting for them then i would say absolutely take it! If you are lucky enough to have 3 rec's and a sponsor of course! Or should you wait for the Legacies to call in 5 years? Most of the Airlines this quarter made a profit and now everyone should dive head first into the Legacy's? Again, this place is quite different but if you put a little effort in and leave work at work you should have no issues here. I would highly recommend this place then an American Legacy, let alone a LCC. I'd rather have a job in the next 15 years as opposed to just going somewhere so that the checker is going to spoon feed me and pat me on the back every five minutes so i feel better.

Again, i can only speak of what i hear or know but it sounds like your one of the few who have had a bad experiance here.

[hog tied]

Again, i can only speak of what i hear or know but it sounds like your one of the few who have had a bad experiance here.
You must be fairly new, or you wouldn't be making this statement. I am not advocating going to or waiting for a legacy. Do not misconstrue Delta guys fleeing the ship that is taking their retirements. Very senior DAL captains are applying (and currently on probation at other well known airlines in the US after taking early outs) all over.

I stand by my statements, although to be fair I am done voicing my opinions on this medium. I never said that I have had a bad experience with CX, in fact quite the opposite. The bottom line is that there is no comparison between a good US job and CX, and neither AMR nor DAL fall into that category at the moment, nor will they for quite some time. CAL, SWA, UPS, FEDEX, and yes even JB do (although the growing pains at JB are certainly something to watch I'll grant you) and they all all hiring, and some at historic levels. If you have an option there take it. It has nothing to do with being pat on the back. It also has nothing to do with equipment, or even pay. You have to factor in all the intangibles that make up quality of life, something not easily done without researching things like a company's culture. You can not overestimate the value of having the flexibility of a bidding system among others either.

A job at CX is loads better than flying for a regional, and certainly much better than the good old military. A good attitude will also go a long way. Im not here to rain on your parade, just hoping to make a fair and balanced case for those who have options. Cheers, buddy.

[ERJDCA]

just hoping to make a fair and balanced case for those who have options.

Exactly what im trying to do as well. Your not raining on my parade. I appreciate your post. I just respectfully disagree with some of the comparison's between some of the companies you posted, but hey to each is own right? Like i said in my opinion if you already have an offer with FEDEX or UPS, go for it! Thanks for the reply!

Cheers

[Five Green]

Cathay is a growing airline that has not left it's small airline ways behind. The check and training department still thinks that it is OK that everyone is self study. Nothing wrong with self study but there should be more information supplied by the training department. More thorough route breifings for FOs who are not going into certain airports but once a year on their line checks. More course info for JFOs on their upgrade. More instruction time in prep for upgrade interviews and courses, or at the very least an outline of what is to be studied and what is reasonable to be tested on. If they do not like you in your JFO or Command interview they will ask questions until they find a weakness. If you come as a DEFO you will be given a CBT course (no instructor present unless you go looking) and then straight into the sims. Average instruction there (as compared to previous lives and those of fellow aviators at other airlines) because the sim instructors do not fly the line and some teach and preach what may get you in trouble once you are on line. It does not help that CX talks very large about it's SOPS and how strict they are and yet there is very little written in the manuals as actual SOPS. So you must consult the underground training network of SOs and all your friends to find out what interpretation certain Captains prefer. Then, on line checks, even what is written exactly in the books can get you into trouble if the checker thinks otherwise. Just play the game !

You are expected to use exact verbage and exact words to handle many situations. Engine failures, push back, ATC transmissions. All very admirable but not written in any SOPs I have ever seen. They are in "best practices" and strewn throught the manuals if they exist at all. Ask a checker what to say if you have an engine failure with severe dammage and you will get five different answers. So you have to play the game and find out from as many people how your checker likes it. All of which would not be a problem as they are not critical to the safety of the flight and amount to trivia. Without any oversight in the training department however these little things can and are written up as grave errors and then the Star chamber interprets them as failure and you are off your command coourse JFO upgrade etc. Just play the game.

It is great to have high standards. If you want them then you must provide the info required to achieve them. Cathay must write these things down. If they are not written down and the candidate completes the task in question safely and proffesionally, but not using the exact verbage, order or techniques of the checker, they should not be marked down or worse failed. Just play the game.

It is really to bad that we have to "Play the game". I would rather "Work" in a proffesional enviroment that respects what skills and experience you bring to the table rather than belittle you and put you in your place. Instead you are treated like the bad teenage son.

Soap Box off.

[fr8ter boi]

When I was learning to be an instructor at the organization which wrote the book on flying instruction, we learned that the first priority was to create a good environment for learning. The current environment seems to be one of fear and intimidation.

Yes, CX can run an operation which looks like a space mission. But yet, mistakes are still made. For example look at the 400 fleet. Although there are high standards, in recent times they have had the descending orbit on finals, the 'hands off' go around and the one that nearly landed on the grass at JFK.

Someone needs to step back and take a long hard look.

[Midnight Oil]

It will be interesting to see if there is a clash of cultures when Dragonair is subsumed into the Swire empire. Dragonair has a clause in its SOP’s saying small variations in standard calls such as “Flaps/Flap” etc are quite acceptable. This was specially inserted into the SOP’s to thwart the pedants amongst us who in their enthusiasm may lose sight of what is important when getting from A to B in China.
Here is an indication of the future culture clashes perhaps - A Dragon pilot in uniform but not wearing his cap (pretty ops normal for KA guys) was approached in the Hong Kong terminal recently and asked in a very rude manner “Where’s your cap!” by a Cathay captain. A curt “What’s it to you?” response made the questioner realise he was not dealing with a Cathay pilot, and so he moved on.
Dragon pilots are a pretty belligerent lot, especially when it comes to not wearing our caps, so I wonder whether such bullies will back down after the buyout?

[ACMS]

FIVE GREENS you say you are expected to use exact words for Pushback, Eng failures etc, but you have never found anything written in SOP's??????????? wow..... Well you could try reading VOL 2 Pt 2. Or you could pickup the QRH, in the front of the 777 QRH is a nice little section dealing with "mouth music" Or better still have a look in the "best practices" section of Flight Ops website, there you will find heaps of PPT presentations on anything you need. Even the port pages have info on what to say, to whom and when to say it.
The information is there my friend, you just need to open a book to find it.
It's not rocket science.
Cathay like all other airlines I've been with do expect a certain level of pre-study and knowledge of the books before training.
Whilst there are some checkers in Cathay that "have an excellent grasp of the non-essential" most are really top blokes.
Anyway at the end of the day this is how Cathay do it, full stop end of story, so you either like it or go play with another train set. It's that simple really.
You should have been on the classic or the 1011, they used to argue over a difference of 5 miles for TOD!!!!! Things are a lot lot better now.
cheers
ACMS

[Five Green]

ACMS:

I think you made my point. They are spread out in manuals and on the computer and do not constitute SOPs. They are "Best practices", techniques and methods. They need to be written in FCOM 3 in a rational and orderly way. As they are at many airlines today. You have been here awhile maybe you should get a copy of a N. American airlines SOPs and you would see the difference.

There are plenty of top blokes who write a ERAS reports for a sucessful ride which end up failing the JFO or Command candidate when the reports go before the star chamber. I would be embarassed to say I was in CX check and training. The failure rate in this company is attrocious. That does not even take into account the number of people who get knocked back before they even get a course. When you put your name in the hat for command you have a 50% chance of making it through all the hoops. When you do your JFO upgrade you have a 75% chance of being held back at least once. Whether you make it or not is largely due to who you are checked by. Some of these failures occur as a result of your overall file. A file made up of all of your checks and sims. So each negative mark no matter how unjust adds up ( or can). So the SOPS are a factor because they are not pedantic enough, and yet the checking is extremely pedantic. I can't believe that the company is happy paying for all these extra courses.

So ACMS do you think that the failure rate is acceptable ? Do you think that this problem will go away as we expand and hire more pilots from around the world ? Can we be a little more open minded about analysing the problems than "well it is better than when I was on the L-1011" or "the info is there you just have to llok for it!"?

This is a good job once you accept that command is not guaranteed and your career depends on luck of the draw. It could be a great job.

I hope we hire lots of N. Americans. They usually speak their minds and have valuable experience.

[SkyCruiser]

Five Greens,

I think you have hit the nail right on the head. No matter how good you file is, just one negative mark and it's all over.:=

I feel that the ERAS system should be thrown into Victoria Harbour.:* :*

The failure rate for upgrades is out of control; any other airline failure rate like CX would have the aviation controlling authority (CAA, FAA) coming down on the training department like a tonne of bricks. But it helps when your airline is the CAD.

All this "well you should have seen it years ago" is no excuse for the current way the training, star chamber operate. This is an international, widebody, first class airline, not a local flying club from the 1970's.:ugh:


Rant over......:{

[corporal klinger]

always the same story : as soon as you critisize the "training" methods of cx, you are a laid-back,lazy,immature disgrace to your profession and it is a miracle you didn't crash yesterday.


I have never worked for an airline wich treated their pilots like this:yuk: :yuk:


everybody thinking about joining : don't let you fool you by this RT discussion. It is not like "well than I am using all the correct RT phrases and I am o.k " . forget it, it is not about beeing a good or bad pilot. it is about a sick system out of control.

[BusyB]

Does he really work for us?

He's right though, there must be something wrong with a system that has let him stay!!:rolleyes:

[frankg]

They're a bunch of arrogant c***s.

[HotDog]

frankg They're a bunch of arrogant c***s.


Now, isn't that strange? Just a handful of malcontents, displaying their literary prowess and by sheer coincidence, most of them claim location USA.:sad:

[HotDog]

Thanks F-CUX, what are the women like in Petropavlovsk? Do they shave their armpits?:E

[Five Green]

ACMS, Hot Dog, Busy Bee:

So answer the question. Do you think that the current training system should change ? Do you think that the current failure rate at CX is acceptable ? What are your suggestions to improve the supposedly lacking skills and knowledge being displayed by so many pilots ? How do we expand this airline if we can't upgrade the pilots we have ?

Standing by for meaningful discussion.........

[BuzzBox]

God help me, if I hear any more yank moaning I think I'll spew.

If it's so good back in the good ole US of A, why don't y'all do the rest of us a favour and sod off back there?

Maybe I'll do it now and get it over with... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[BusyB]

Five Green,

You obviously don't read anything that doesn't suit your views. I've already replied to your question on this thread.:ugh:

[ACMS]

The Pass rate for command on the 777 is damn near 100% now.
And not a yank seen yet, maybe then it'll be over 100% !!
ya awl have a nice day, ya hear.
outta 3 for 4.
etc etc
And we thought Singapore were the master race.
byeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Five Green]

The truth is that the vast majority of C & T's are excellent with a few that are not so good (just like any major airline). The main problem in CX is limited to one or two senior management (soon to be gone) that overrule the C & T's.

So that is your answer. Wait till the old school pedants retire. Good fix !

As for all this BS about RT my personal judgement is that if an individual has to make the same call 3 times to pass his message and someone else can do it in one there is a problem. In my experience this is not limited to one nationality, in the last month I have flown with 4 different nationalities who can't pass a straightforward position report.

And I am sure that you politely taught them to do it correctly.

No-one who's prepared to do the work will fail in the long run. What applicants should be worried about is the fact that contracts in CX are changed as often as the management change their underwear.;)

It is not about passing "in the long run". No pilot I know goes into their command or JFO without doing the work. It is about a system with no checks and balances. I do not disagree with the level of standard being asked for, on the contrary I applaud it. I am at odds with the uneven way it is applied. In most airlines there is a system in place to ensure that the standards are applied fairly. We need that here.

Why worry about your next contract when the monetary value of being CAT D'd or held back for 1 or 2 years is very significant and represents an immediate pay cut and possibly a drastic pay cut if you find yourself looking for work elsewhere ?

I read everything and I approach things with an open mind, but I am easily tricked.

Still standing by for meaningful dialogue or are you going to tell me I don't deserve to work here again ?

[BusyB]

5 green, I am having trouble working out what we're in dispute about. Having been sin-binned myself due a personal conflict with one of the senior management I am fairly confident in my opinions.

The vast majority of C & T's are excellent with a few that don't cut the mustard. These are few enough that your right to request an instructor change covers them (I am not a trainer). With a few retirements looming I hope the Star Chamber will soon be a thing of the past.

Yes, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion

"And I am sure that you politely taught them to do it correctly.
It is not about passing "in the long run".No pilot I know goes into their command or JFO without doing the work. It is about a system with no checks and balances."

And yes, I did teach them politely to do it correctly. Its part of the free training that CX gets from its line Captains. I know of several pilots who have gone for upgrades or commands thinking they know it all and unsurprisingly have failed. I also know others who have been screwed by the Star Chamber and they have all passed on their next attempt.

As for a system with no checks and balances, it seems to me that there are plenty of checks but possibly not yet enough balances.:)

[CruisingSpeed]

All I hear is this “standards” bollocks and people who seem to know it all in a pissing contest about who deserves shoddy treatment and who doesn’t. I personally witnessed two top performers and good friends from a cadet course fired for reasons too petty to mention. I suppose one could interpret this as standardization, i.e. putting the others into place, it was a shocking revelation of what this place is all about.

I was appalled by the way that most peers just revert to shutting up and getting on with it, some even in open denial, just to get ahead. It may be a survival issue, but what some self serving individuals especially the ones on this forum raving on about professional standards fail to realise is that there are certain standards continually ignored by the bullies allowed to run this sad show, and that this may well come back and bite themselves one day.

Personally and in hindsight, I am relieved to have been moved on to a place where “standards” are reciprocal and where the focus is on the task at hand, flying airplanes. :zzz:

[electricjetjock]

Well having just trawled through the last four pages I find it hard to believe that I am actually in the same airline as some of our "angry" contributors.:=

The majority of what I have read is NOT true and appears to be disinformation spouted by some "individuals" who have prejudiced views.

SOP's / NP's are written down, everything is written down and funnily enough you DO have to put some work in yourself. You cannot expect to be treated (and paid) like an adult if you want to be a child. It was the same for the Charter Airline I flew for in the UK before joining CX.:ok:

As for some trainers / checkers being "anal" about standards, why is it that the majority can comply but you "few" cannot. We have to allow you to be different!! Sorry not going to happen, if you cannot be bothered to operate under this airlines "rules" go and fly for another.:rolleyes:

R/T & Ground communication standardisation is not just for us, but it is for the people we communicate with and for whom English is NOT their FIRST language. I am also sure many of you have been told that if a controller or someone else uses a different phrase then it is better to use that in replying to PREVENT confusion. As for good CRM by saying "good morning" etc, no problem with that if the frequency is not too busy and we do not get into what we had for breakfast etc etc. Guess what guys we are not the only ones using the frequency!:ugh:

A good example of non-standard R/T. Cleared to take off runway 31L at JFK, last month in a max weight A340-600, only to hear two calls within 10 seconds of each other of "XXXXX lining up 31L" and "XXXXX rolling onto 31L". Both from two jets making first contact with JFK tower having been handed over from approach. Very disconcerting for a heavy jet about to set take off thrust - **** have we missed something!:mad:

[treholer]

..........

[Five Green]

Electric Jet Jock Sir :

The majority of what I have read is NOT true and appears to be disinformation spouted by some "individuals" who have prejudiced views.
Which part are you saying is not true ?

SOP's / NP's are written down, everything is written down and funnily enough you DO have to put some work in yourself.
Everthing is not written down ! That is the whole problem. There is still too much room for individual Checker interpretation.

You cannot expect to be treated (and paid) like an adult if you want to be a child.
Want to be a child ? Oh please you can do better than that, because let's face it we all got into this buisiness because we want to be a child. What I would like is an adult conversation about our abismal failure rate on JFO and command upgrades

It was the same for the Charter Airline I flew for in the UK before joining CX.
Just becuase it was the same at your UK past life does not mean there are not more progressive ways to maximise your training and therefore your Pilot's proffesionalism, knowledge and ability to do their jobs, both under regular line flying and under abnormal and emergency situations.


As for some trainers / checkers being "anal" about standards, why is it that the majority can comply but you "few" cannot. We have to allow you to be different!! Sorry not going to happen, if you cannot be bothered to operate under this airlines "rules" go and fly for another.
I am not sure that the current monthly and yearly average of unsuccessful courses would constitute as "few" in fact it almost constitutes half. So are you actually saying that half of our pilots cannot be bothered to operate under CX rules ?

R/T & Ground communication standardisation is not just for us, but it is for the people we communicate with and for whom English is NOT their FIRST language. I am also sure many of you have been told that if a controller or someone else uses a different phrase then it is better to use that in replying to PREVENT confusion. As for good CRM by saying "good morning" etc, no problem with that if the frequency is not too busy and we do not get into what we had for breakfast etc etc. Guess what guys we are not the only ones using the frequency

No N. American here at CX is dangerously slack in their RT. As a N. American you will be expected to prove yourself when others might not have to.

A good example of non-standard R/T. Cleared to take off runway 31L at JFK, last month in a max weight A340-600, only to hear two calls within 10 seconds of each other of "XXXXX lining up 31L" and "XXXXX rolling onto 31L". Both from two jets making first contact with JFK tower having been handed over from approach. Very disconcerting for a heavy jet about to set take off thrust - **** have we missed something!:mad:
As I am always open to learning something, perhaps you could explain a little further how a plane on approach would call lining up or rolling ?

And finally, do you think there is a probleem with the failure rate at CX ?

Speakers and headsets.

[BusyB]

Electricjetjock,
Forget 5 Greens, he's obviously got a screw loose. You'll get more info by ignoring his posts.:cool:

[hog tied]

Electricjetjock,
Forget 5 Greens, he's obviously got a screw loose. You'll get more info by ignoring his posts.:cool:
No, I think he has some very accurate views and great questions. This isn't a North American vs the rest of the world situation. All creeds and colors have the same artificial mountains to climb.

Only someone with a screw loose would deny the childishness of the way juniors are treated by seniors here in the form of petty harassment in the training system.

A majority of pilots here would agree with this in a private bar discussion, but certainly would not air it publicly because their career would suffer.

We all know people very close who have had their lives disrupted in some severe ways as a result of this system, and occasionally it happens at every airline. Obviously in this business there are some who won't cut it, no big surprise. There is always three sides to every story: his, hers, and the truth. It just happens here way more often, to the point that it can't just be attributed to the poor skills, study habits, publications, attitude, you name it of the individual in question.

This ain't gonna change any time soon, and it's the price you pay here to fly the shiny stuff, and have some bucks to live a reasonable life, but it isn't a required ingredient of running a safe profitable airline. In fact, it's more of a hinderance and cx prospers in spite of it.

By the way, here is a similar thread of past:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=156059

Five Green asks about the failure rates at cx. It obviously is magnitudes higher than at any other airline. Let me get this straight: They hand pick their command trainees after picking over the multitude of training, personal and other records (that most other airlines wisely don't keep!), and almost always after jumping over many perfectly suitable candidates of higher seniority. Then said candidate gets the honor of several months of exhaustive eras evaluations (too many to count!), including three major check rides and two convened boards to evaluate the progress. How many of these hand picked people make it through? Maybe 50-60%? Pretty impressive! I hope that a good percentage of these make it through eventually, but at what cost? What percentage of captains at cx have had a command or other major failure on their record? Pretty high I would guess. God forbid cx ever has a fatal incident in these modern times. Odds are pretty high the captain will have had some pretty juicy training files the media, surviving families and their new lawyer buddies would love to get hold of. I can see the headlines now: "Captain of fatal aircraft accident had a history of failure!" Sensational airplane drama has garnered quite a bit of world attention lately, and it will only be getting worse. Meanwhile the training system at cx continues to slap its young in the head and poke them in the eyes like Larry, Curly, and Moe. The problem is that some day a real adult is going to open the proverbial door and three wide-eyed and stiff upper-lipped stooges will have a real problem on their hands.


The truth is, there are way too many people running around here with setbacks to overcome that when someone asks what the culture at cx, they should be told the truth. If it looks, smells, and tastes like it, it probably is!:)

[sagaris]

just my cheeky 2 pence worth. I have nothing to do with Cx, though fly locos, but I do know a Captain with Cx, who ive known since long before my flying career begun.

All I can say is that reading this thread and recent ones comes as a bit of a shock, because for many years Cx looked like a very nice place to end up - to me this was due to this certain captain. My only impression of Cx came via him, and he would be more than welcome as my captain.. true Gent, very pleasant, talkative, relaxed and still very professional. Hense my very rosy view of Cx.

All this begs the point that you cant please everyone. If you end up with good legacy airline, some people will always moan. The same type of people winge about BA, Emirates, Virgin.... Shut up and cout your lucky stars you have got to where you are.

[Max Reheat]

I wonder if we can get this thread back to Jett 15's initial post.
Jett, the concerns you air are all very valid and you raise questions that any sane prospective employee should wish to have answered.
My fear is that this thread has been hijacked by a couple of our collegues who, it would appear, have fallen foul of the training and checking system.
I can categorically tell you (as a training captain) that there is NO policy of discrimination between creed, colour or religion or even ability! We do discriminate, ruthlessly, against lack of effort. The problem is that a trainee may actually be working hard, but in the wrong direction! All Normal Procedures (SOPs) for each individual fleet are laid down in a book we call FCOM 3 and the Company bible is called Volume 2 part 2 which quite clearly lays out, amongst other things, standard PANS-OPS RT prcocedures. Now if some of the respondees to your thread are unable to find or recall what is laid down in these documents then we may be led to assume that they are either bone idle (expecting to be spoon-fed; which will definately not happen here) or they are working in the wrong direction!
A few people here have likened CX to the British Military, I think that you will find check (ERAS) reports objectively (and sometimes subjectively) score an individual's performance in many areas of the flight or sim. Pretty much as you would find on an officers annual confidential (fitness) report in the armed forces. My experience of exchange crews from our 'special cousins across the pond' is that the system there requires fairy tales to be written or else the reportee is considered a failure. Reading some of these posts makes me think the correspondents are a product of a system such as the one I describe.
Should you choose to join Cathay Pacific I am certain that provided you come with an open mind and a willingness to adhere to CX procedures then you will have a rewarding career. The trainers and checkers you will fly with will have the sole intention of getting you checked to the line as soon as possible, without any prejudice.
What you can be assured of is that you will fly superb aeroplanes and have the opportunity to live almost anywhere you wish so long as you are
prepared to do the commuting. We get to fly to great places with great people in great jets. Please don't listen to those who are unhappy here and would have you believe otherwise.
Finally, I unable entertain a train of thought that we should pass everyone in case they are one day involved in an incident, lest we fear the backlash of legal and journalistic action!

[Speedlever]

I am employed by CX , and have to agree with Max Reheats comments. I have found CX to be a great place to work, the check & trainers are excellent, the aircraft great, and the people I have had the pleasure of working with, to be some of the most dedicated professionals I have ever met.

If you fall foul of the system here, it is of your own doing, if you come here expecting to do it the way you used to, you won't last long. If you have a "better way" of doing the job, the same applies. Everything is laid down in the manuals, or the web site. Yes there are sometimes fleet practices that are not laid down, the reason I believe, is to allow some degree of flexibilty in the operation.

To anyone who has been offered a job here, take it. The pay is good, and you can take a basing in the country of your choice. If you put the work in, you will find that everyone in the training dept has a single goal, to get you
checked to line.

This would be one of the better jobs around, to those who don't like it here, or find the system not of their liking, would you please leave! I know of a dozen guys who would give anything to be part of a growing airline that makes a profit, year in, year out.

[Five Green]

standard PANS-OPS RT prcocedures. Now if some of the respondees to your thread are unable to find or recall what is laid down in these documents then we may be led to assume that they are either bone idle (expecting to be spoon-fed; which will definately not happen here) or they are working in the wrong direction!

The argument is not that the information is not there. The argument is that it is still open to much interpretation and personal judgement of the checker and this has contributed to the current failure rate on command and JFO courses. As I have said before no Pilot takes these courses lightly and everyone puts in the work, and yet here we are.

As an aside on RT. In CAA 413 RT manual it is a requirement to use the prefix "heavy" when operating in the heavy class, it is also a requirement to call when begining your descent, when given a descent at pilot's discretion. The former is never used, and the latter is regularily left out, and this by the same people who get worked up about "Daysemal" and "Fife".

The trainers and checkers you will fly with will have the sole intention of getting you checked to the line as soon as possible, without any prejudice.

Again mostly you are correct. So maybe we can start to fix the system by agreeing on one thing. If a candidate gets put up for a chek ride on command or JFO, and passes, that pass should stand. In other words if the candidate has met all the P-file and managerial issues and the training etc is good prior to his final check then the final check should be the determining factor and not the round table. You could improve the passing rate considerably in this one improvement.

Finally, I unable entertain a train of thought that we should pass everyone in case they are one day involved in an incident, lest we fear the backlash of legal and journalistic action!

My apologies if english is your second language, but I think you are saying "..if nobody flies, nobody gets hurt.." We know from recent CX experience that even shining stars can fall victim to the pitfalls of this industry. The,"it ain't broke so lets not fix it" mentality is not going to prevent similar incidents (regardless of how the system functions) if you do not back up the checking, with: training, route familiarization and a more open culture.

So I will try the question one more time for you sir. Do you think that the current failure rate on JFO and Captain's courses is acceptable ?

Cheers

[JV]

can someone answer the question? :ugh:

[Freehills]

It was Hogtied, who said (to precis)

- All airlines have incidents
- Many CX crews have "juicy" training files
- This would be bad publicity for the airline

He didn't say, but certainly seems to imply that it is a mistake for there to be exhaustive & "warts & all" training files once the lawyers & press get hold of them. Not sure if he is saying that people should be allowed to pass more easily, or just that it all documented in an anodyne way.

Same sort of idea with references - you can't be honest now in a reference, just use generalities.

Is this how it works in the US now? That airlines feel they need to be "politically correct" in their training records, in case of incidents?

[junior_man]

In the US, If you passed a checkride, you passed.
There are standards you have to meet in the US to pass, same as here. Don't meet the standards, you don't pass.
Training files in the US will say S for satisfactory if you passed.

As far as the training records in court, you can count on it and not just in the USA. Many comments made with good intention will sound quite different when read aloud in court by the attorneys. Their goal is to prove negligence, because without that next of kin are entitled to a very small payout under the international rules that airlines operate under. But, if they can prove negligence, or the impression of negligence, they can get millions.

[SkyCruiser]

Can you imagine if god forbid we lost an aircraft, ERAS will be there to hang the crew in a court of law.:=

The marking system should be a PASS or FAIL, nothing more.....

[Max Reheat]

Hi Five Greens,
I'll get on to the assessment board in a moment.... first though, English is indeed my first language and I now realise and admit my 2 mistakes; one of omission and the other of poor proof reading! I'm sorry the omission of the word 'am' as word 2 of the last paragraph causes you so much angst! I don't think it changes the sentiment or meaning in any way. By the way you could correct the two spelling mistakes in your reply, dated 13th Aug @ 14.01!!!
The review board I would guess is here to stay, so let's all just get on with the job in hand and fly aeroplanes and have a damned good time doing it, rather than all this wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth. It is not going to get anyone anywhere!
On the subject of books... Everything is written down, clearly and logically; you just have to know where to look. I guess we could combine all the manuals into FCOM 3 and have an enormous index. Alternatively, we could keep the system of manuals we have and learn to use them, that comes with exposure and experience, oh, and a bit of hard work. We could produce briefs and guidlines for everything, but then there would be no fun in watching our junior colleagues running around with their hair on fire trying to figure out who likes what, when it comes to check time!!!
We have to trust the guys to do the hard work themselves, this is after all one of the biggest prizes in aviation... it must be because you are still here chasing it!
Cheers

[electricjetjock]

MAX you are wasting your time. :ugh: :ugh: But here I go again.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I foolishly tried to explain as well, but they do not want to listen, especially Five Greens (is english his or her second language - I do wonder?).:rolleyes:

They seem to want to be spoon fed, with everything served on a plate. Unfortunately the minority have not yet learnt that you have to put in the effort in this career and you cannot always rely on someone else's cheat-sheet to get through the various courses.:cool:

Guys you do not need to know everything verbatim, you DO however have to know where to find it in our manuals. As for "particular" captains ways of doing things, that is what SOP's / NP's are there to prevent, however there can be many different "ways" of doing a particular task and they can be type specific and "best practice". Where you do have a conflict perhaps the conflict is increased due to "attitude". Yours, as well as the trainer's / checker's, CRM is a two way street, it is not just about how you are treated but how you treat and react to other peolpe / inputs.

You also need to be serious about every simulator ride and check ride, they all count and it shows that you are "professional and a committed aviator". You cannot expect to just put the effort in a couple of months before your upgrade, because your number has reached the top of the pile. We also need to remember this is NOT a flying club, but an airline and if the people at the top want it run a particular way, then thats the way it is. If you do not like the heat get out of the kitchen or stop bleating.

As for the pass rate at the moment that "5" go's on and on about, there is NO easy answer and you cannot blame any one part of the system. Perhaps the candidates were not quite up to it, perhaps they were not quite ready, perhaps the company was wrong to give some of them an oppotunity at the upgrade, perhaps some were their own undoing and perhaps some were just "unlucky". I can assure you NO one in the training department / company wants you to fail. Why waste the money? However, if they have a doubt then there can be NO doubt, would you want your loved ones to be put in jeopardy on a dark and stormy night?:sad:

I am in the training department, I have flown for another airline, I am ex military, I am an ex QFI ( piston / fast jet). Why did I get into training in Cathay, because I enjoy it, I like to give something back and I want to make sure that you receive TRAINING and not training by checking. That is the aim of the training department!! The RAF went through a serious look at its training system in the late 70's as so many were failing. It was initially the fault of the QFI's and the "training department" but then they realised that was not the whole picture, some fault lay with the selection process and some with the trainee's.

If you all think the training department is so bad why not try and join it, then you can do YOUR bit to TRAIN rather than CHECK. You will then find that is exactly what we are trying to do at present. BIG T little c.:)

Finally "5" Cathay does not fly under the rules of the CAA (your R/T manual reference - try Vol 2 Pt 2) but the rules of the HKCAD. My comment about my departure from JFK was to highlight the need for STANDARD R/T, the two aircraft in question did not use standard R/T and caused a worrying few seconds. I had hoped that was obvious from the way I wrote the sentence but obviously not, I hope that was clearer.

[CruisingSpeed]

Sorry to say Reheat, but your last post is void of any meaningful content and somewhat contradictory.

In reality, hand wringing and teeth gnashing is trainerside, many crypted ERAS reports bear testimony to this. You as a trainer have just said yourself it is them who like to see hairs on fire, a very good description indeed. Some who find themselves empowered and protected by company culture thrive on this and relish, most on the receiving end are just disturbed and frustrated by it all. As you say, just get on with it, but cut the bull**** please. :rolleyes:

It is a very political, often arbitrary and therefore counterproductive environment to produce consistent good results in, even for the workwilling. I fully understand Five Greens valid questions and he obviously means well, your arrogant attitude towards these just prove his point.

Electric Jetjock: Right on, get involved and change it! (As an aside on your last point, the CAA 413 RT manual is the official source for CX Cadet Training in Adelaide and RT Training is based on it)

[Max Reheat]

Cruising Speed,
I was trying to use a bit of wit but clearly it was supersonic when it went over your head!!!
Trust me the only gnashing of teeth is going on here by you guys.
By the way, which part of my post do you find contradictory? I think it clearly states that you... the candidate... has to put in some hard yards and that if you don't.... well, nuff said!

[Five Green]

Electric

No pilot at CX expects to cruise through a JFO or command course. They all put in incredible amounts of work. Most "cheat sheets" as you say are an effort to collect all the scattered info into more easily studied and understood order. This is something that modern airlines do for their course candidates.

As for "particular" captains ways of doing things, that is what SOP's / NP's are there to prevent, however there can be many different "ways" of doing a particular task and they can be type specific and "best practice".

I think you just contradicted yourself. An SOP is just that, STANDARD not different. There are checkers in this airline who over time have drifted to their own version of SOPs. Yes I know it happens in all airlines. However in most airlines you have some way to question the result if it is based on erroneous marking. It is also mandatory for the checker to review all information being placed in the report with the candidate, by way of debrief, before it is entered into the system. Quite often here, questionable marks, and in the worst cases, those of sim partners, are entered as your report. It is the CX culture (because that is what this thread is about) that prevents the candidate from being able to question these reports.

So there is my other suggestion : Closer auditing of the check and trainers to track trends and or problems.

... and perhaps some were just "unlucky".

So it comes down to luck here at CX. Now I understand. In your even handed approach you did forget that some of the blame might just might have to be laid on the system. Just as in your RAF days.

I am not against the round table idea. It was originally put there for our benefit. Now, however it has grown into something else. We either need better representation on the round table, or the round table should be inserted into the program earlier. In other words your fate should not be left to whomever is on the third floor that day, but to the pilots and trainers who have worked with you. If I was a check and trainer I might talk to my fellow check and trainers and do what you say you do "help us", by taking up these issues with your managers, with the round table, and lets get some changes for the better made.

Cheers

[CruisingSpeed]

Veeery witty Reheat,

I see you embrace the essence of training, motivating, encouraging and developing your junior peers you refer to as “candidates”.

You fit the mould, perfectly.

[ACMS]

Yawn Yawn Yawn :hmm:
The only people that seem to have a beef with the Cathay system are the ones that don't get through. **** it's a wonder we have any Captains at all the way some of you go on.
If you aren't prepared the put in the hard yards and take some heat then get out of the kitchen and stay in your present rank for the rest of your lives.
Simple really.
NOW GET BACK TO THE BOOKS AND STOP COMPLAINING, THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCHES.

[Max Reheat]

ACMS
:D
Cruising Speed,
My goodness we really are a bitter little pill aren't we.
I notice from a previous thread that you no longer work for Cathay Pacific. Why don't you sod off back under the stone from whence you came and start living your new life rather than trying to cling on to the one you wish you had!

[Obscurum per obscurius]

I have to agree with Mr. Reheat on this. If you don't want to be pushed or are happy with mediocrity then Cathay is NOT the place for you.

If, however, you don't mind knuckling down, doing a bit of work...

A system that marks you on a scale (like Cathay) is bound to come under fire, if you don't put the work in you will be marked down. Just as well pilots have small ego's!!

Live to work or work to live, its up to you, but in my humble opinion an Airline Pilot should think of himself as a Professional. That by definition takes more than the 9 to 5.

[CruisingSpeed]

xxxxx
Edited to return focus to Five Greens posting, pointless arguing with these unfailing supermen...

cs (Back to a free crewmeal lunch tomorrow :E)

[ACMS]

For christ sake it doesn't take Superman to get anywhere in Cathay.
It takes a little work, determination and maybe some sweat.
The info is in the books, open your eyes and look for it.
By the time you come up for promotion you should have a reasonable handle on the "Cathay way" and what is required of you. If you don't then you must have totally wasted you time here and therefore I'm sorry to say that you don't deserve the promotion.
I am not Superman, just a number in the system that did what was required, no more no less.
As I said above "there are no free lunches"
If you think you can get an easier ride in another airlines system then I urge you to "go for it"
Now can we all stop this stupid bull**** and get on with it.
Cheers

[CruisingSpeed]

There are no free lunches anywhere and I don’t know what makes you gullible lot think that the standards are any lower elsewhere, maybe aviation was not even invented in Hong Kong… and let’s not forget that the original discussion was not about flight operations standards but corporate culture.

Why colleagues who have flown aircraft with much success elsewhere, have jumped the licensing, recruitment and training hoops but don’t get on in CX are portrayed as loosers, troublemakers or unprofessionals by their own peers is beyond me and you really should be a little less judgmental and condescending, having been there for some time and looking a little left and right. More than a “handful of malcontents who have a beef” have just found themselves incompatible with the culture and that is what this thread is about. I openly admit I have an issue with it, and I sometimes can’t resist posting when I feel that some people forget they are not on third floor where it is shut up or get out. After all this is an open forum on which there should be a measured discussion and some degree of controversy. Fragrant Harbour is my periodical pprune freak show forum and a reminder of how lucky I am to have had an opportunity to take my life and career back home.

Using Max Reheats mindset I should really reverse the argument and spout that it might just be HIM who failed in securing a job (unlike some :E who put in the hard yards) with his home country flag carrier and had to ship out to a second world country on a three month contract with diminished COS, third world class labour protection requiring him to bend over to his superiors and in turn passing it on to the unwary FOs or SOs. He might just be hanging around in DB with nothing much else to do but to drive his golf cart around the polluted block or get pissed/laid in LKF and guise his misery of giving up his dreams, ideals and convictions maybe even his marriage for a shiny jet job and a pocketful of money in neverending drivel about a version of professionalism that isn’t even his own but proves to be little more than corporate spoonfed propaganda. Instead of constantly going through the pain of dodging some of the more eloquent characters floating around the offices to preserve his fragile career he then turned into one himself, to give something back or so he says. The place is brimming with a rare and weird breed of ego, overinflated and suppressed at the same time.

It’s dog eat dog and all a big game fellas!
And who would be the one needing a life now… :uhoh:

Sorry, of course I am not 100% serious here, let’s just agree that this profession is mostly about being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. What appears to aggravate things in CX unnecessarily is that it can be being in the wrong fleet or having had the wrong checker or chief pilot, a single misfortune will be haunt you for the rest of your career there. While some say that they have been ok so far others are up for a very sinister experience, call this a consistent and fair 21st century standard then? Cathay can do better than that!

Hats up to Five Green and I hope you find some colleagues or the union offering you time, thought and support! :ok:

[hog tied]

I can categorically tell you (as a training captain) that there is NO policy of discrimination between creed, colour or religion or even ability!...

My experience of exchange crews from our 'special cousins across the pond' is that the system there requires fairy tales to be written or else the reportee is considered a failure.... Hmmm.. this from a training captain who categorically denies discrimination. Look, I know it was a joke, but I have had heard from very reliable sources how some C&T's view yanks in the ranks. I have seen it firsthand. After exchanging pleasantries in dispatch on my very first sector, the trainer remarked "First I will break you of your North Americanisms..." This was before we had even made it to the aircraft. Not really a big deal, but certainly indicative of the strange culture here.

Finally, I unable entertain a train of thought that we should pass everyone in case they are one day involved in an incident, lest we fear the backlash of legal and journalistic action!

I don't think anyone cares much about how a report is written, only whether it says PASS (or not). If it is shot down by the star chamber, then it obviously didn't say PASS, regardless of the words written. Finally I never said everyone should pass, but back to the original question: What is an acceptable command pass rate? This is an important question, since it is the ultimate goal in coming to cx, and certainly something to consider when asking about the culture here.

Those involved in C&T on this board continue to say getting "candidates" through the system is the ultimate goal. Well, how's it going? I am not an insider, but certainly the statistics are easily enough tracked and pretty poor at that. Notice that no one has denied the poor rates, except tough guy ACMS (I'm doing ok on the 777, screw you guys!) As an aside, I've seen more captains fired here than anyone else, just give it a little more time.:ok:

Let's say the average first time pass rate sits somewhere between 50-60%, so there's a pretty good chance that the average candidate will put in 3-4 months grinding away in the 'system' (even longer if he is changing aircraft type!), almost totally isolated from family unless they happen to live in HK. They will have put in years of study and made it through all hurdles, including passing an even longer JFO or DE freighter FO conversion, probably a relief command upgrade, and at least 3 -4 graded sim and flying events a year. They have finally gotten the ok from the star chamber, and quite often above their senior mates due to their "suitable record". So nearly half of these people are rewarded with a thumbs down, and thrown back on the heap. Do you really think that knowing the odds most people fail to adequately put in the effort before and during the course? I can tell you very few!

OK, so most will eventually get another go, and miraculously the pass rate goes up a bit, let's even say 70% (probably generous!). I hardly see how , for example, going back to the long haul fleet getting 2-3 sectors a month in the right seat 'sin bin' would make a difference in the quality, experience, outlook, or overall performance in the candidate the next time around, who already has many thousands of hours and probably 20+ years of flying experience, including many years at cx . It sure does seem to make a difference in the perception of the candidate. So, here is a huge group (35% or more of the total pilot group) who had the 'right stuff' all along, yet they have had to share life altering stresses with their families for periods usually amounting to years until cx finally gives the ok. Pretty nice way to treat your employees! Here's a novel idea: spend those 3-4 long months of command training and checking wisely, and get this group of 35% through the FIRST time, along with the usual 50%. I would say a failure rate of even 15% would be excessive, unless there is a severe flaw in the cx hiring system. This is not the case.

There are those who seem to defend this system out of some sort of foolish pride. Yes, a challenge is great, but not when it comes to your livelihood! How many would voluntarily subject your career to danger by seeking out the most difficult doctor they could find just to brag that they passed the astronaut physical to keep on flying? If you want a challenge, do what I do and get into a ring for an occasional fight... take up an extreme sport. I want my livelihood kept simple... show up ready to work, run a safe and efficient operation, treat my fellow employees with respect, and help create the good atmosphere that ultimately drives a profitable airline. Then I want to go home and concentrate on the more important aspects of life. I have had flying jobs that had a much finer line between life and death than this type of flying, and we didn't have to manufacture the artificial difficulty too many people here seem to tolerate. Spare me the "dark and stormy night" references concerning the requirements demanded by a captain at cx. Show me how the cx safety record is statistically better than the average N American carrier that simply grabs the next guy in the seniority chain, trains him to do his job, then lets him alone to get on with it. Sure some fail, but only the few who truly are not capable. Oh, yeah, I forgot how hard droning around the cx network is, according to some of these people. At the end of the day it's really not a great feat safely finding the runway no matter the length of the drone, or the accent of ports on either end. Barring all engines or a wing falling off, 99% of professional pilots will do the right thing when the going gets tough. Its pretty easy to identify those who won't; get rid of them and leave the others alone.

When a guy comes along and asks: Cathay or... FEDEX, UPS, SWA, CAL (insert any hiring airline here) and I say there is no comparison. Period. Cx has never had a seniority furlough, but it's selective permanent furlough is something you will live with for the rest of your career. It will change a person; bow down and graciously massage those above you , and you will probably be ok. Study habits, ability, attitude, and effort have less to do with success than pure luck in who shows up in dispatch on your checkride to discuss the "all important" fuel decision, or even what fleet you land in. If you join on the N American freighter you will have a slightly more difficult challenge than most. Some will hit most wickets here with just the right mixture of luck and timing, and have little trouble with the system; many more will not. Come here and enjoy your job, take your chances. Cx does not suffer fools, but it isn't just the fools who are suffering.

[ACMS]

seems i'm a tough guy:ok:

I guess I wont need to go to the gym anymore

really fellas is that the best you can do??????????

[BusyB]

CruisingSpeed,

I worked for a national carrier for 15 yrs before I came to CX, does that exclude me from your condemnation of Max reheat?

I have great sympathy for anyone running foul of the star chamber but don't agree with the total condemnation of the C & T dept (I'm not C&T).

HogTied,
I think you've got to accept things are changing. Keep telling people they're no better than their predecessors and you'll make it come true.

I have to say this is no longer a fair representation of CX. It has its faults but so do a lot of posters. I want Cx to improve and constructive criticism will help.
:bored:

[BADRT]

You guys have got it all wrong. The culture at CX is just fine. The real problem we have is that all the pilots that are coming up these days just don't have the experience and same ability as the previous generation. If they would quit walking with backpacks in Cathay City and start wearing long sleeve shirts with gold cuff links and a matching Mont Blanc pen, I think they would get along in the program much easier. It also helps to try to look nervous and frightened for simulators checks. This shows that you are serious and have the right attitude. The culture is great. I really love it here.

[BusyB]

BADRT,

Good stuff, don't forget to leave your shoes outside the skippers room on nightstops and he'll shine them for u as well.:}

[ACMS]

An Idiot.........well I'm the one with the Captains pay each month, what about you?
Good thing Cathay don't think I'm an idiot or i'd be CAT D and REALLY BITTER
Why was I not made CAT D?
Because I put in the hard work when required.
I am not special, I do the job they pay me to do.
Now instead of all this crap about why Cathay are different why don't you worry about the Middle east, North Korea, Global warming, terrorism, etc etc. The real problems of this world. And while you at it why don't you thank christ you were not born in India or Pakistan. Then you would really have a **** hard dirty crap life.
So get a life and pull your finger out. Stop blaming everyone else for your problems here. We all know the Cathay system is not perfect, it is improving all the time thanks to some leaving and some arriving on the 3rd floor and more good guys starting as TC's
If you don't like the system and you can't work with it then go back to where you came from. Because there is one hell of a lot of us here sick of your complaining.

[Five Green]

ACMS, Elec, OPO;

You sound alot like the crusty old Captains I flew with when CRM started. All they could say was that CRM was bad for the industry. Bad for them to loose control.

Among the qualities necessary for a professional aviator (IMHO) are: the ability to empathise with others who make mistakes, the ability to analyse and learn from said mistakes, the awareness that yes "it" can happen to you, an understanding that there are more than one way to do things, and an open mind when presented with another viewpoint.

Quite frankly from the tone of your replies it is possible that you struggle in these areas. You may have been the best of the best of the best, but you seem to lack human factors understanding.

A professional aviator should keep abreast of current information and advances in all aspects of the job. A professional aviator should strive to continue improving. So should an international arline's training system.

[ACMS]

Why do I bother...............................................

[Liam Gallagher]

ACMS wrote...

"....thank christ you were not born in India or Pakistan."

Shurely shome mishtake...don't you mean Allah, Krishna, Bhudda et al....:8

[cpdude]

You guys have got it all wrong. The culture at CX is just fine. The real problem we have is that all the pilots that are coming up these days just don't have the experience and same ability as the previous generation. If they would quit walking with backpacks in Cathay City and start wearing long sleeve shirts with gold cuff links and a matching Mont Blanc pen, I think they would get along in the program much easier. It also helps to try to look nervous and frightened for simulators checks. This shows that you are serious and have the right attitude. The culture is great. I really love it here.

Remember to add "Mont Blanc CLICK pen"

[Max Reheat]

This is starting to get uncontrollably out of hand, guys! We work for one of the best airlines in the world, let's celebrate the fact.
I would not disagree with anyone who questions the system of the "board" making the Final Decision, however, that is the system. The sooner that is accepted, then the better for the individuals concerned.
The courses brought into contention on this post are being passed on a regular basis by guys and girls from a place not a million miles from HKG where aviation is not an indiginous industry. They get there by by hard work, diligence and a committment to CX that unfortunately is clearly lacking within the ranks of some of our expat colleagues. Next time you feel hard done by, take a look at them and just wonder at how you would have coped if you had been required to become a second officer with only 250 hrs total time. They get through, so can you!
CX does pride itself on high standards... remember "Training for safety, aiming for excellence", that really is all we want. It is unfortunate when an individual does not receive a thumbs up from the board, there is nothing vindictve intended, it's sole purpose is to protect the Company and the passengers who pay to travel with us.
I genuinely believe that, we, new breed of trainers are trying to improve the system by our more empathetic approach, a willingness to go the extra mile for our student; we take it personally when 'our man' (or girl) doesn't get through the course.
I apologise if I have rattled some delicate egos with my last few posts, however, there are too many people on this forum slandering a great company and the people who are trying to keep it great by ensuring that the CX standard remains as high as ever.
All of us who took Mr Swire's shilling need to remember that it is his train set and that he sets the rules. Play by them or concede defeat, because whingeing will not change the system.
Cheers.... Max

[BADRT]

I can't wait for the "Sky Gods" to retire, but wait, like abused children growing up to be abusers, there is a whole new crop of kool-aid drinking Sky God wannabees ready to continue making an otherwise good job suck!

[electricjetjock]

Five:sad: (why am I bothering :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: )

I think you need to take a leaf out of your own book and take off your blinkers. Perhaps you should show some CRM, as I said before it is not a one way street, YOU actually have to be able to be flexible as well. It appears that it is not just the "oldies" who have sensitive ego's. Hey and guess what you might not always be correct in YOUR assumptions. I think you need to gain a life and accept that things do not always go the way you want them. Get over it and move on either here or somewhere else.:rolleyes:

I have never stopped learning in this career and the day I DO think I know it all is the day I MUST quit.

BAD not a very good attempt at a wind up, stay in the kindergarten.:=

[ACMS]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[VR-HFX]

Well what can one say...this thread started by discussing the unique issues that our brethren from the USA face flying with us Commonwealth monsters.

I have flown with US captains and US F/O's. Nothing wrong with any of them.

After well more than 20 years, what I can say is that if you put a few thousand folk with too much testosterone in shiny wide body a/c then the cultural differences are nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with ego.

CRM is a useless technical term for what is common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

There have been Star Chamber types in this company since the day I joined. The real skill is staying away from them..or more precisely their finely honed culture of self importance. Most of them were abused children or frightened themelves fartless in the military. While they may give you a hard time, the last thing hard they gave 'She Who Must be Obeyed' is currency.

Failure rates are a disgrace and a direct result of the fact that most of the A team have opted out of the C&T system. Ask yourself why there is a queue a mile long to upgrade onto the 777 even if it means waiting an extra 6 months. Quite simply it is the only fleet that has a real culture.

The 400 has become the fleet of choice for the B&T while I will not comment at all on the Bus, the failure rates say more than I ever could.

A yoghurt in the morning is culture enough for me.