Qantas pilots hit turbulence with JetStar

[max autobrakes]

Title of article in the Australian July 21 ,page 2 no less.

Poor little Alan Joyce thinks Qantas pilots are "vastly uncompetitive with the rest of the aviation market"

Could he please explain how Qantas made such a large profit despite these over paid ,under worked ,recalcitrant Qantas pilots he so obviously despises. Or does driving costs down to JetStar pay and conditions deliver Mr Joyce a nice fat bonus?

"Mr Joyce said Jetstar believed the salaries it was offering pilots reflected market rates and said this was backed by the fact that Jetstar had more than 1000 applications from pilots"

Well Mr Joyce there is a big difference between an application and a firm acceptance of an offer. Just how many firm "acceptances" do you have?
You must obviously be swamped with "acceptances" of a job with such world competitive pay and conditions.


"It is true a Jetstar captain can be paid about $100,000 less than a Qantas captain ,but we believe a salary of $180,000-plus for a 330 captain is very good, and it's the market rates" he said.( Mr Joyce)


Sorry Mr Joyce I must be reading the wrong JetStar Certified Agreement.
My copy reads $160,000 for a "wide body" captain not $180,000 ++ as you proport.Unless of course there are deals to be done in order to get the numbers you need with this world beating market rate.;)

I guess time will tell if Mr Joyce really does "know the industry" ,won't we.

[OneDotLow]

Mr Joyce,
Can you explain how I might fit more than 29:36 stick time into a working week (legally)?
Oh, if I could do a sector that was 24mins block to block, id be ok!
:ugh:

[jack red]

Spot on max AJ has been known to tell porky's. I also would like to know how many of these applicants have accepted positions with Jet* after they read the CA :E

[Aussie]

Its management preparing the QF drivers for the conditions to come for them... :8

Aussie

[oldhasbeen]

or how many have gone solo yet??:rolleyes:

[Jetsbest]

This magical $100K salary-difference number keeps cropping up in every article too. But I'd like to see a comparison of like with like (ie QF A330-J*A330... not QF 747-400 pay) proving it.

I'm not convinced any QF A330 captain is on $280K even including travel allowances and therein lies the rub. IF J* will REALLY pay it's A330 Captains $180K then why can't existing QF-group pilots have a crack at the slots too? The figures repeatedly quoted imply the pay differential is NOT as big as some would have us believe and, just like Australian Wetlease in Cairns, some pilots may find the opportunity appealing.

To be 'locked out' over petty point scoring or potential 'pollution' of the mystical low-cost culture is as puerile as anything some here would accuse QF management of doing! On second thoughts... QED!

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Currently QF A330 drivers are getting nowhere near 280k.

Hourly rate=206
Divisor=160
Number of divisors p.a 6.52
= approx 215k pa

Add allowances of 20K

=235k

Now, the divisor is down due to the A380 elect getting their Airbus experience up so a full divisor of 175 would add 20k to the total.

The low divisor also has the number of BL holders up. They are getting even less.

[Johhny Utah]

Heard a rumour that a group of Qantas mainline A330 drivers had approached Jetstar, to work under JetStar terms & conditions on the A330, but were knocked back - not wanted (despite being type rated, and currently flying THE VERY AIRCRAFT that JetStar are looking to crew) :confused:

[OhSpareMe]

Heard a rumour that a group of Qantas mainline A330 drivers had approached Jetstar, to work under JetStar terms & conditions on the A330, but were knocked back - not wanted (despite being type rated, and currently flying THE VERY AIRCRAFT that JetStar are looking to crew)

........and why the hell would they want to do something like that?

[Howard Hughes]

Because they can see the writing on the wall and would like to secure a position for the future!

It wouldn't be the first time...:hmm:

[OhSpareMe]

Yeah, well I can see the merit in that:ok: Resign from QF so you can take up a command in Jetstar because they (Jetstar) are going to take over the world. Right?
If some of the so called 'drivers' want to quit and go to Jetstar then more power to them I say. (Particularly all those that are senior to me.:D)

[murgatroid]

Dear Mr AJ,

There are no J* shareholders (well except for your fat bonus scam) but there are lots and lots of QF group shareholders.

Do what is right for the group and stop your anti QFness. You will only bring everybody down!

Yes, AIPA are just as bad, but you are supposedly a corporate leader! Grow up and act like one! Keep the slanging match out of the papers. You should be supportive (at least externally) of the entire QF group! Do not play off another segment of the company.

You make me sick!

[touchncloth]

``It shows Joyce is just a flim-flam man, he's a marketer,'' Mr Somerville said. ``He doesn't really know the industry.'':ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Another quote from said article.

[DutchRoll]

Confucious say:

"AJ speaketh with forked tongue."

"Journalist who taketh AJ's word without cross-checking facts is fool."

[TineeTim]

Irony:

Being told you are overpaid by someone who earns well in excess if $1million/ year.

[The Full Monty]

More irony:-

From AIPA Insights 26 April 06

New Office Manager

This week our new Office Manager, Peter Somerville, commenced full time employment at AIPA.* Peter comes to us from the Australian Salaried Medical Officers Federation (ASMOF), where he served as Executive Director for the last seven years.* During that time, despite the health system seemingly lurching from crisis to crisis, he was successful in establishing ASMOF as an influential player in the national and state debate over health, particularly during the national medical indemnity crisis in late 2003 and the inquiry into Campbelltown and Camden Hospitals in 2004.* Most recently Peter has achieved significant pay rises for senior doctors in NSW, finalising a four-year twelve per cent deal in 2005 and winning further increases expected to be around 13% in an arbitrated case before the NSW Industrial Relations Commission to be handed down shortly.* We look forward to utilising Peter’s expertise in the coming years to further the interests of technical aircrew.

:ugh:

CEO Jetstar Bio (from Google search)

Alan Joyce was appointed Chief Executive Officer of Jetstar in October 2003. Alan has more than 16 years' experience in the airline industry, principally in fleet and network planning and business improvement. Most recently he worked for Qantas Airways as Group General Manager Network, responsible for Network Strategy, Network Analysis, Schedules Planning and Schedules Variation. Prior to his role at Qantas, he worked at Ansett Airlines in a variety of roles including Vice President / General Manager Network and Schedules Planning and Route Development Manager. Prior to Ansett, he had started his working career with the Irish National Airline, Aer Lingus.

:= I hope the Pres has control of his "experienced" New Office Manager.

[tifters]

FM, a valid point however, i would imagine that he didnt have much experience in the medical field either before starting there!! These guys are number crunchers and are good at selling it!! Maybe a fresh look at things is not such a bad thing!!

[Mstr Caution]

Mr Joyce said Jetstar believed the salaries it was offering pilots reflected market rates and said this was backed by the fact that Jetstar had more than 1000 applications from pilots

McDonalds also offers market rates for flipping burgers & would probably recieve over 1000 applications per week!

:8

[Sonny Hammond]

Yeah and the basic rate for a mcdonalds fry fryer, burger flipper or bin cleaner for that matter is around $17. 40 hr week and that around $35000 grand a year. Plus cleaning allowance.
No $60000-$100000 to get your licence.
No $30000 to get your endorsement.
No annual medical.....$
No $500-$1000 for the priviledge for a interview.
About $10000 in tax over 10 years...:cool:

10 years at maccas still on the fry station = $350,000 + pay rises ( they get 4% without an argument) - $10000 (tax) = $508000.

10 years at J* = 5 years F/O @ $80000 + 5 years capt @ $130000 (NO YEARLY INCREMENTS, not entitled to those as an airline employee...= $1050000. Less about $300000 in tax. Less Costs of job @ approx $120000.

Work at J* for 10 and net around.....$630000.

There you have it folks.

Oh, and maccas pay straight 9% on your super into a fund of your choice, no tricks, no promises just the cash.

Someone else can do the numbers there....enjoy your job at J* girls and boys....

[ur2]

Oh, and Jetstar pays 9% into super of your choice including 9% on all OT just cash no tricks.

[neville_nobody]

I think Alan Joyce may want to have a look into what other airlines around the world are paying their pilots before he gets quoted in newspapers and he may discover that QF have some of the cheapest labour in the world.

Maybe he needs to look at what the likes of Jetblue and Southwest are paying before he starts talking about market rates.

I also love how all these senior management types compare their pilot salaries with 3rd World LCC startups saying that Australian pilots are to expensive whilst comparing their own salaries with United and BA claiming that they are paid "on par with people in similar positions". Alan should investigate what Southwest pay their managers and CEO's before he talks about "market rates"
He may have a bit of a rude shock if he does!

[Chimbu chuckles]

What are Ryanair, Southwest etc paid?

I will even be nice and warn you this is a trick question...so be careful:ok:

[neville_nobody]

On my caculations as follows

* Note that in the US you work up the income levels each year. The hours a month are the MINIMUM that is guarenteed*

South West FO after 7 years gets US$ 111 384 for 78 hours guaranteed a month

Maximum income for a Captain at Southwest is US $ 177 840 for 78 a month

Have read elsewhere it is US$ 220 000

Jet Blue 7th year FO's are US $62 160 guarenteed 70 a month

Captains maximum US $116 760 for 70 a month

I would imagine that Jet blue pilots will earn more than this with extra flying time. If I remember correctly it is quicker to get to the top level in jetblue too

These are two domestic LCC in the US yet Alan Joyce thinks that Jetstar paying about $137 000 and $83 000 for 85 hours (???) a month is the market average.

[Eagleman]

AJ says and does what he is told to do and say by Geoff and Ian Newfield.

For all he would knows, market average is is the shop where Edna does her shopping!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Looks like VB and Jetstar, at around AU$160-170K captains with typical hrs overtime, are paying same or better?

That 220k figure would be for Check and Trainers probably...if so compares favourably with Jetstar as well.

VB or Jetstar FOs similar too and in some cases better than their US counterparts.

Ryanair adds on this site indicate up to GBP100k for a captain and GBP70k for FO and they alledgedly pay better than similar LCCs in the UK.

Seems to me VB or Jetstar win again.

[Junkersjet]

chuckles. Are you talking about the 330 or the 320?

Not to mention the exchange rate.

JJ.

[speeeedy]

Chimbu,

Ryanair 100,000 GBP = $247,000 AUD and they are having trouble getting pilots.

JetBlue Capt at 116K US is Minimum Guarantee - at 85 hours it would be around 153K (Credit of 150% stick aboved 70 hours) therefore $205,000 AUD.

Southwest Capt at 177K US is again Minimum Guarantee - at 85 hours it would be 194K which is $262,000 AUD.

THESE FIGURES DO NOT INCLUDE ALLOWANCES AND SUCH LIKE!

THE FIGURES ARE FOR SHORT HAUL NARROW BODY OPS NOT WIDEBODY LONGHAUL!

So yeah, you're right Jetstar pays similar amounts - For the WHOLE CREW.

AJ really does not know the market, he just knows that due to unique cirmumstances (AN going down and Impulse blokes seeing any jet job as better than a 1900) there are desperate pilots (others might call them foolish) who will sign up for less then market rates - simple!

[DutchRoll]

Yeah, I have to admit to being a little confused as to what exchange rates Chimbu is using! Cost of living comparisons may make the European figures slightly less favourable, but certainly not the US ones!

1000 applications? How many of those even meet the qualification requirements? Doesn't sound much for a new airline flying modern jets even if every single one of them did have the prerequisites.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I will tell you the exchange rate I am using 1 for 1.

It is NOT appropriate to use any exchange rate at all unless you are sending the money home.

A Ryanair pilot is paid in GBP and spends in GBP.

I liter of fuel in the UK is GBP1.30. in Oz its AU$1.30.

A Big Mac is GBP4.50 in Oz its AUD4.50.

Rent is several hundred pounds a week...in Oz it is several hundred dollars a week.

I spend quite a few days a mth in London and the costs in the UK are painful when you are not earning in GBP.

To suggest a Ryanair captain is making the equivalent of AU$245k is UTTER BS

There may well be a few unmarried Ozzies/Kiwis with no kids working at Ryanair who manage to save and repatriate some of their pay...that is the only part that is effected by exchange rates.

[Alistair]

Chuck, you might be gilding the lilly a little there. Fuel £1.30, not yet. Maybe after a few nukes get tossed around the middle east, but at the moment fuel is below the pound. Paid £0.94/litre yesterday. Admittedly haven't eaten in Maccas for a while, but £4.50 would get a whole meal not just a burger.

Not going to enter into the wages argument J* versus the world, but what Chuck is trying to express is true. The only time you can compare what you are earning overseas to back in Aus is when you leave and go home, go on hols or pay off an Aussie mortgage. The only problem is you still have to live up here. LCC Captains would be on over $200K aus up here. The only time that number is any good is during a d..k pulling contest down the pub!

Haven't been home for years but am told it is a hell of a lot more expensive than when i left (pre GST) and you get shafted on income tax. What is the top rate now? $0.48 in the $1, ouch! Guess you have to keep the guys on the beach in beer money.

[speeeedy]

First up:

A Big Mac in the UK cost 1.94 GBP (25th March 2006 Price).

Fuel cost 98.4p per Litre (Avg of UK wide price as of Today), importantly a whopping 70% of this is TAX, so unless you start looking at the total tax situation it is meaningless.

Secondly:

AJ was talking about Market rates - your argument is irrelevant from that point of view.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ok I was thinking about avgas I must admit Only realised it after my mistake was pointed out...and Big Mac meals as opposed to a burger...but the basic premise still holds true.

Still by your calcs they are paying AU$2.50 odd/liter for petrol....nearly double what it costs in Oz. That is not correct either.

It is rediculous to use exchange rates to compare wages across the world and then proclaim Jetstar are underpaid without looking at relative costs of living.

[speeeedy]

AJ was talking about Market rates and I am talking about Market rates, what Chimbu is talking about, I have no idea!

It does not matter how many big macs an employee can buy, it is the cost to the business of the employees that is the relevant comparison in this case.

Cost of living and different tax policies are the concern of the employee, not the employer.

[Jetsbest]

While 'cost of living' might be a factor in job acceptance or otherwise, surely it is 'cost to the company' which determines the competitiveness of various employment packages.

No doubt J* and VB are cheaper than QF on many counts, especially when QF spin is regurgitated, as in today's Australian, without comparative analysis of real bottom lines. Min guarantee hours/month, no shorthaul overtime, CAO exemptions, heavy crews with S/Os vs multiple Capts and F/Os narrow the gap between QF and others a lot.

In short, the Dixon/Joyce/etc spin supported by sloppy investigative journalism manifested in an uncritical acceptance of management pronouncements is not serving any Australia-based pilots well at present. I'm just surprised that after the years of being called 's*#t c*+ks' by all and sundry, now that AIPA is attempting to take a stand on several issues which may eventually benefit more than just AIPA pilots, they get a different crowd of nay-sayers calling them the same thing!

[Bazzamundi]

Who gives a rats about the fuel price in the UK? For the couple of years I lived there, you virtually didn't need your car at all (they, unlike OZ, actually have decent public transport). Rent was also expensive if you lived in town, but very cheap away from the centre of action (again, how much do you pay to rent in the Eastern Suburbs as opposed to out a little way - say Strathfield?).

As for beer at todays prices, well at least you get a pint over there for the equivalent of about $5 Aus (in the city). Last time I drank in the heart of Sydney, most establishments charged around $4 for a schooner, which given the volume of the pint doesn't make it that much more expensive overall.

Its time for people to admit that wages in Aus are heading the way of third world LCC's, not western nations market averages.

[DutchRoll]

Now I'm really confused. A pound in the UK doesn't necessarily buy what an AUD buys in Oz (yes there are coincidental exceptions, but it ain't the rule by any stretch!), or what a $US buys in the US. The price of goods and services (or if you like, the "cost of living") is highly variable between the 3 countries, even if you had a universal currency. A 1 to 1 comparison is meaningless. An exchange rate comparison on it's own is also meaningless. As is a gross income comparison. Anyone flying LH will be able to tell you that!

Yes there are 2 discussions here. Whether Jetstar pilots are more "competitive" in terms of what they cost the company, and whether Jetstar pilots are on good pay & conditions for a comparable LCC. Two quite different answers I suspect.