Pilot requiring marshaller but uses own instinct!!

[Aloon]

If a pilot is told by ATC 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller' then decides to park himself without a marshaller, due to the fact he's not there instantly when needed...... Is this 'disobeying' ATCs instructions?? Is it punishable??

Just a thought, as this happens regularly with me...... Though if any other ATC instructions were 'dismissed' there would be hell to pay surely?????

If a pilot reads back 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller', but then decides to ignore that then surely there 'should' be some kind of consequence??????

Just a thought... as to me, ATC are there for a reason and in control of ground movements, as well as air..... Someone in control is good, not doing your own thing through frustration!!

[judge11]

Agree with I-FORD. Tell me where you want the aircraft and I'l put it there. I don't need someone to signal to me when and where to turn. Now, having said that there are occasions in tight parking slots where a pair of eyes out front and to the side is invaluable - or where the airport has a requirement to put you in a specific spot - then sure, go with the marshaller. But otherwise, as I said, tell me where you want the aircraft and I'll put it there.

As for the original point, ATC can say to 'park with the marshaller'. Quite what ATC involvement is thereafter is surely finished. Isn't it then an airport authority task (probably their requirement to use the marshaller anyway) unless the airport authority is also ATC.

The 'Follow Me' routines at Manchester a few months ago and parking on some of the remotes in broad daylight are cases in point of job creation (and keeping a desk-bound 'safety' legislator in work).

[spekesoftly]

I suggest the short answer to Aloon's first question is Yes. If a pilot ignores any ATC parking instruction, then MOR action may be appropriate.

However, if this is a regular problem, then I also suggest that the following may need to be examined:-

i) Are the parking procedures clearly defined in the Aerodrome Manual and AIP?

ii) Are pending arrivals notified to the marshallers in sufficient time for them to be on stand ahead of an aircraft?

iii) Is the number of marshallers sufficient to handle the routine flow of traffic?

iv) Are the marshallers sufficiently well trained and motivated to carry out their tasks efficiently?

[Pilot Pete]

From my experience, marshalling quality varies widely, and that includes at UK airports. I often don't exactly follow the marshallers instructions as I can see what he is trying to do and where he is trying to position us, but his signals to me aren't going to achieve it! The classic is turning us too early to get us onto the parking centre-line. It would become tiresome to follow exactly to prove to him that his marshalling is not going to work. Also, we all started somewhere and need to gain experience to become proficient, but the ship is the Captain's responsibility ultimately. Perhaps a quiet word after engine shutdown would be more appropriate.

PP

[bafanguy]

Aloon,

Call the tower on the telephone and ask them what they mean/want by those instructions.

What does your company ops manual say about parking with/without marshallers ?

The most dangerous time to operate an airplane is from the time the MLG touches the ground until the MLG leaves the ground again.

[Aloon]

Thank you all for the replies.... I think some might be missing the point!!!!

It's not about marshaller capability or requirement!!

Yes and that someone is the pilot

Totally agreed.. A Marshaller is an 'aid' to parking.

My question is though about not adhering to ATC or GROUND instructions and self parking, despite being given instructions to do otherwise.

A marshaller doesn't just park an a/c, but is required to check the stand is clear of equipment and FOD before an a/c can be parked. Ok, a pilot can park himself but can't check the stand beforehand.... Stands are full of obstructions and need to be checked!! So what if a marshaller is only there to check the stand and you ignore his instructions.. It's an important job! Stands need to be checked!!

The main question being though.... NOT adhering to instructions given by ATC or GROUND... Self park with an incident... Is the pilot to blame??? Surely he/she must be???

'spekesoftly' Your reply directly identifies the point I'm trying to make!! Cheers for that!!!!

In response....
i) Yes

ii) Not always!!

iii) Not always!!

iv) More often than not.. YES

All depends on time of flights!! Delays throw a spanner in the works generally...

That's what I see at my aerodrome!!!

So disobeying instructions given??? Back to the point.... Be it 'only parking'... Perhaps the biggest hazard in your journey???

[bafanguy]

[QUOTE=Aloon]Thank you all for the replies.... I think some might be missing the point!!!!

It's not about marshaller capability or requirement!!


My question is though about not adhering to ATC or GROUND instructions and self parking, despite being given instructions to do otherwise.



The main question being though.... NOT adhering to instructions given by ATC or GROUND... Self park with an incident... Is the pilot to blame???

[QUOTE]

OK, I'll take a shot at this: No, you'd not be in hot water with ATC in a legal sense. They have much bigger fish to fry than whether or not some guy waited for a marshaller...or did not.

If you smack something parking without guidance when you could've waited a bit and done it in compliance with your ops manual, the Chief Pilot at your company may invite you to a "rug dance". Is the pilot to blame ? You bet. The only question is who gets to put his danglers on the tree stump...government or Chief Pilot. I'd opt for the Chief Pilot.

Would the convenience of getting to the gate a few minutes earlier be worth the price you paid ?

[parabellum]

Just don't try taxying to the gate at either Narita or Osaka without waiting for and obeying the marshaller!
And don't forget to acknowledge his polite bow when marshalling is complete!

[Bumz_Rush]

several years ago, if my memory is correct.

Up north, perhaps 15 years ago.

Pliot ignored marshaller, and was done for disobeying a lawful ATC instruction.

Can anyone provide the details......

Bumz

[JW411]

The thing that has always irritated the hell out of me are marshallers who set off backwards on a cross-country walk/run every time you get anywhere near them.

If you are a marshaller then please, please, pretty please stand just in front of where you want me to park and I'll figure out how to help you but if you set off backwards at a rate of knots every time I think we have arrived then it is all going to get messy!

[Kent BeTrue]

Aloon.... It sounds like you might be a tad P**sed with a captain who did not wait for marshalling. Not that this is right or wrong but full details of the situation allow for better responses.....

[Aloon]

Kent BeTrue

Not at all!

I DON'T Marshall.....

It's a question, about ATC / or ground giving instructions, and them not being adheared to!!!

'some' pilots seem to ignore this instruction.

WHY???

Simple as!!!

[Aloon]

I-FORD

Yes and that someone is the pilot.


In my airline there have been two occasions in which, following wrong signals from marshalers, airplanes have been damaged.
Try to imagine who has been held responsible for the mishaps.

So if the pilot was in control, why were a/c damaged??? A whole new thread I know!!!!

Believe you me, marshalers also get the brunt of this!!!!

It can be hard to communicate and act accordingly due to time of observing marshalers instructions and acting upon them.. Rate of turn is also a hard one to judge!!

But again.. That's not the question in hand....

'spekesoftly' has actually followed the question with an appropriate answer!!! Cheers!!!

[spekesoftly]

but if you set off backwards at a rate of knots
Totally understandable reaction to some howling chunk of metal that comes screaming towards you!! ;)

But to be serious, I wonder if many pilots have ever had a go at marshalling?
I'm not a marshaller, but many years ago, whilst under pilot training, I did, and it was quite an eye-opener!

[theresalwaysone]

So say you taxied into the Jetty (anyone remember SG at Bham in the MD80!) and you hadnt waited for the marshaller or say you ran over one of those guys with the chocks who thinks its clever to see how close you can get the noswheel to his foot and you hadnt waited for the marshaller how would you defend yourself at the industrial tribunal or the negligence action when the companies solicitor says," you disobeyed an ATC instruction which you acknowledged."

In a case like that pension preservation dictates you tell ATC, " the marshallers not here we will go on without him" and put the ball back in ATC's court.

I had the reverse action at Edinburgh a few years ago. I was told by ATC to park on stand 3 (or somewhere close to three cant remeber) and use the stop short line. when i got to the turn I couldnt be sure that the Jetty wasnt infringing the stop short line so i told ATC i was refusing to taxy on till they sent a marshaller. When the marshaller eventually came he was quite upset about it and took my ID number and reported me to the BAA saying that the company would be billed by BAA for use of a marshalI. i just laughed at him and didnt take any notice of him but I got a written apolgy from the ramp manager and the marshaller got his knucles rapped.

there is two different issues here one is blatantly disobeying at ATC instruction and the other is exercising you right as the commander to protect the aircraft and its occupants. It could be difficult to argue that taxying on without the marsaller after ATC had told you to wait for him was achieving the latter.

[keel beam]

Aloon

What is the urgency that requires you (or any pilot for that matter) to taxi on stand ignoring ATC. As in any situation if you are not clear about or need further information, how about asking?

Just a slight thread drift - At an European station an A330 was about to taxi onto stand, but as there was no stand guidance on, the pilot waited. An airline employee saw the situation and set the guidance system up. The aircraft then taxied on to the stand, and promptly hit a jetty! The employee had set the guidance up for a B777! The employee was sacked. The pilot? I do not know.

[Spitoon]

If a pilot is told by ATC 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller' then decides to park himself without a marshaller, due to the fact he's not there instantly when needed...... Is this 'disobeying' ATCs instructions??Aloon, this is a UK answer. In the UK such an instruction is not an ATC instruction but is probably, in effect, 'a message passed on behalf of the airport authority'. This is a reflection of the responsibilities of ATC on aprons in the UK - it is different elsewhere. If the pilot disregards instructions from the airport authority it is an issue for airport bylaws and cnditions of use of the aerodrome. It is likely that ATC won't be be particularly concerned in what a pilot does when he or she gets on to the apron.

[spekesoftly]

It is likely that ATC won't be be particularly concerned in what a pilot does when he or she gets on to the apron.
I don't think I can agree with that. From CAP 493 "Aerodrome control responsibility on the apron is limited to providing advice and instructions to assist the prevention of collisions between moving aircraft"

Taking an example - Pilot of an inbound PA34 is told: "After the B737 pushing from stand 22, park with the marshaller on stand 24". However, PA34 pilot decides to make his own arrangements, forcing the B737 to make an emergency stop. Bitter complaint from the 737 Captain ensues, and ATC file a 1261.

[Aloon]

Aloon

What is the urgency that requires you (or any pilot for that matter) to taxi on stand ignoring ATC

Not sure.. I'm not a pilot.... Hence the question??


As in any situation if you are not clear about or need further information, how about asking?



Thought I was..... Hang on, I'll check my post...... Yep I was asking!!......

Spitoon...

Aloon, this is a UK answer. In the UK such an instruction is not an ATC instruction but is probably, in effect, 'a message passed on behalf of the airport authority'. This is a reflection of the responsibilities of ATC on aprons in the UK - it is different elsewhere.

Maty..... A large part of the information passed on by ATC comes from somewhere else!!!! Does this make them think, ' ah well, it's someone elses fault!! ' I think not!!

ATC, GROUND, RADAR, and CONTROL all ' pass on ' information from others at some point. Someone else did the weather.. Someone else did the flightplan.. Someone else did the slot time!!!

Not sure that your 'UK answer' would hold up in court!!!!

I'm no expert, but I think you're WAY off the mark. Cheers anyway!!

So back to the original question!!...

Thanks for all the replies, a mixed bag of sorts!!

[Piltdown Man]

I think it truly amazing that we are actually allowed to fly the damn things. Every man and his dog appears to want to mess about with us. Loaders, marshallers, tug drivers - every one wants to have a go. Why? Because some office-bound a:mad:e has decreed so (normally invoking the god of charging airlines - Safety) and in return for said "service", our companies get an invoice. I'm as keen as the next man to have extra eyes when I'm parking but rarely is said person looking at my extremities so to speak, just the nosewheel and the yellow line.

[Aloon]

I'm as keen as the next man to have extra eyes when I'm parking but rarely is said person looking at my extremities so to speak, just the nosewheel and the yellow line.

How do you know where he is looking??? As does - how does he know where you are looking?? And moreso, that you can follow his instructions accuratly????

This is another thread.... Beyond the question I asked.

Perhaps I'll open it!!!!!

Keep a look out!!!

[Spitoon]

I don't think I can agree with that. From CAP 493 "Aerodrome control responsibility on the apron is limited to providing advice and instructions to assist the prevention of collisions between moving aircraft"
Taking an example - Pilot of an inbound PA34 is told: "After the B737 pushing from stand 22, park with the marshaller on stand 24". However, PA34 pilot decides to make his own arrangements, forcing the B737 to make an emergency stop. Bitter complaint from the 737 Captain ensues, and ATC file a 1261.Spitoon...
Quote:
Aloon, this is a UK answer. In the UK such an instruction is not an ATC instruction but is probably, in effect, 'a message passed on behalf of the airport authority'. This is a reflection of the responsibilities of ATC on aprons in the UK - it is different elsewhere.
Maty..... A large part of the information passed on by ATC comes from somewhere else!!!! Does this make them think, ' ah well, it's someone elses fault!! ' I think not!!
ATC, GROUND, RADAR, and CONTROL all ' pass on ' information from others at some point. Someone else did the weather.. Someone else did the flightplan.. Someone else did the slot time!!!
Not sure that your 'UK answer' would hold up in court!!!!
I'm no expert, but I think you're WAY off the mark. Cheers anyway!!
So back to the original question!!...
Thanks for all the replies, a mixed bag of sorts!! speke and Aloon, the original question was about a pilot that did not wait for a marshaller despite being told to. I stand by my answer that once an aircraft reaches a stand the controller is unlikely to know whether the pilot waits for the marshaller or not. If the marshaller calls up ATC and asks for another 'message' to be passed to the pilot then maybe the controller will come back into the loop.

More specifically, speke, you are quite right about the controller's responsibilities but you give a very specific example which is beyond the scope of the original question.

Aloon, you are a bit ambiguous about your area of expertise. Just in case there is any doubt about my expertise, I am a controller with over 20 years experience, I am quite aware of the origin of information that I pass on on behalf of a third party and of when I make up those instructions myself. My answer is a practical one - it was not intended to stand up in court. If you want an opinion of the legalities - for which I openly admit I have no professional qualification - I will be happy to offer one if you give sufficient information about the situation that concerns you.

[Rapid]

Just interested how you guys feel about parking on T2 main terminal at Manchester in my days on the ramp it seemed to be a comedy of errors on a daily basis during peak times, are you made aware of stand number L , C ,R on landing or do you just follow the lights on the wall or marsheller if the lights arn't working which was common in my day there...also remember a few occasions when aircraft were on right line but stopped short leaving there arse ends hanging over the service road requiring a tug to be attached quick before someone towing steps taking the tail off. Saw lots of collisions there. Would you guys put T2 manchester one of the worst places to park??

[Aloon]

Spitoon

It is likely that ATC won't be be particularly concerned in what a pilot does when he or she gets on to the apron.

Are you speaking in relating to a separate ground frequency for ground movements? Or movements that ATC control??

Not knowing you were a controller, I wasn't having a dig!!

Now that I know you are!!

I'll put it to you directly!!


If a pilot is told by ATC 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller' then decides to park himself without a marshaller, due to the fact he's not there instantly when needed...... Is this 'disobeying' ATCs instructions?? Is it punishable??



I know the question is a little vague.... So lets put a little scenario into the mix...

Pilot ignores instruction to wait for marshaller.... Parks himself..... Hits a vehicle with his engine... bits go flying and hit a ground worker... What happens to the pilot now????

Now back to what happens everyday... Pilot ignores instruction to wait for marshaller.... Parks himself..... Shuts down and all is well... What happens to the pilot now????

Surely we are in the age of accident prevention rather than dissection???

[Paradism]

I have no experience of marshalling in "civvy street" but did loads in my service career. I only ever had one pilot who ignored my "guidance" and parked his aircraft well away from where I desired to put it. Said pilot was most agrieved that, as it became obvious that I was being ignored, I threw the wands into the air and walked away.

Mutterings of insubordination were quickly quelled when ATC suggested to the pilot that if he didn't want an extremely large green jet transport parked on top of his small jet runabout, he should follow the marshaller's directions. An amicable solution was soon reached and said pilot was actually quite interested when a C5 parked nearby.

The moral of the story is that the pilot may not be in receipt of all the facts. Notwithstanding that, I acknowledge that the pilot is ultimately responsible for the safety of his aircraft and rather than ignore a marshaller should stop until satisfied that all is well.

[bruppy]

Anyone who has dealt with aircraft marshalling has read CAP 637 (& that supposedly includes Flight Deck) it deals with aerodrome markings including VDGS (Visual Docking Guidance Systems) which includes a manner of automated systems & also AGNIS (Azimuth Guidance for Nose In Stands) & PAPA (Parralax Aircraft Parking Aids), side marker boards/lines & of course the old faithful "Mirror" (good for Hosties to check their make up in as well!!).
This is an old document (1996) & is currently being updated, however it states "A pilot should not assume that a stand is safe to enter simply because the stand VGS is active or lit, where ground personnel are not present or the Pilot has any doubt about the position of any equipment on OR NEAR to the stand the aeroplane should be stopped immediately and assistance requested".
It go's on to state that “except under the guidance of a marshaller, an aeroplane should not be taxied onto a VDGS equipped stand where the guidance system is switched off"
It unfortunately says diddley about parking in an area where there is no VDGS (I take it that was the case at CWL?) but the main fact is that the Captain always has the ultimate responsibility, if he decides to enter a parking area without marshallers assistance or VDGS then its his neck that will be chopped if he prangs his bus!! Even if the marshaller makes an error & guides him the wrong way the captain gets smacked if there is an incident (the marshaller wont get off scot free but they will say that if the Captain was unsure then he should have stopped & called ATC for clarification).
This is why Marshaller training has got to be done properly so that the crews can place there trust without worry. I hope that this has bought some light onto your query Aloon?????

[Aloon]

Thanks for the info bruppy!! I don't have the inclination to trawl through these things and as I say, I don't marshall so don't know off hand what to look for!

Though I hear from friends, of pilots not understanding certain marshalling instructions... I'm sure there are marshallers too who don't use certain signals that often, that perhaps they forget??

Though again not the question in hand... ( I go off the mark sometimes!! )

To conclude.... My view on this is... A pilot is in comand, always, and a marshaller is an 'aid' to parking. Pilot will get bigger bum slap than marshaller should something go wrong... But surely there's an element of trust to be included in the evaluation?? It seems clear cut, but yet vague!! On paper / in reality.... yet.. not my question!!

If a pilot ignores the requirement for a marshaller, then he/she is fully responsible should there be an incident. Job done!!

We got there - of sorts! - Thanks to all who took the time to reply....

I'm happy.....

A Load Of Old Nonsense - Aloon :)

[Spitoon]

Sorry, Aloon, wasn't ignoring your question - just been busy and forgot to check back how the thread was going.
You make a distinction between a separate ground frequency for ground movements or movements that ATC control. In the UK a separate frequency for issuing instructions and clearances etc. to aircraft on the ground (e.g. callsign of Ground or Planner) is ATC - this is often not the case in other countries, in fact, the UK is probably in the minority for these arrangements which blur responsibilities between ATC and others on the apron.
Moving to the situation you describe, pilots, like marshallers, operations people, controllers, and everyone else, sometimes break the rules - sometimes unwittingly, sometimes with ill-intent and sometimes because they think it won't do any harm. Parking without a marshaller is usually going to fall into the latter category and, of course, in most cases no harm is done.
When it does go wrong, with serious consequences, there will be investigations into how it happened so that recurrence can be avoided and, inevitably, so that blame can be apportioned. The causes and where the blame is determined to lie will depend upon the circumstances. Whilst the commander of the aircraft is always responsible for the safety of his or her aircraft, in an accident as you describe there will be many other parties involved/responsible and other legislation will be applicable (apart from aviation law which is what makes the commander responsible for the safety of the aircraft). In particular, Health and Safety at Work legislation and, in the UK, the HSE, will almost certainly be involved if someone is hurt in the accident.
Many of the measures required by H & S legislation require people to do what is reasonable. So in your example one would have to consider whether a number of things were reasonable...Was it reasonable for the pilot to self-part? Did he, for example, use the airport often and frequently park on his own because a marshaller did not arrive?
Did the airport authority do everything reasonable to ensure that pilots knew that they had to wait for a masrshaller?
Did the controller, if asked where the marshaller was, take reasonable actions to assist?
Did the marshaller take reasonable actions to be at the right place at the right time?
Did the marshaller's employers have reasonable procedures to cater for getting information to the pilot if a marshaller was not available?
and so on, and on........................

As I have made clear, I am no legal expert, but I have seen similar situations and what actually happens - and one thing is clear, there are few black and white answers! Returning to the ATC part of the question, on which I would claim a little expertise, I would re-iterate that once an aircraft reaches a stand ATC have little interest or knowledge as to how it parks (as long as it stays on the stand/apron and doesn't re-enter the taxiway). I'm making one or two assumptions here but if the pilot called ATC and asked where the marshaller was and ATC replied "Park at your discretion" or made no normal or reasonable (for that airport) attempts to chase up the marshaller then it seems likely that ATC would carry some of the blame after the accident - but it will depend entirely on the circumstances and what is 'normal' at that airport. And if it ends up in court it might be surprising how normal or reasonable are interpreted. This is where good practice comes in - if an airport down the road has developed some good procedures for doing something and your airport sticks to the old ways, this may not be seen as reasonable. Arguing these points is not easy and I guess it is why lawyers and barristers get paid so much!
But you are right, we should all try and be pro-active and stop such accidents. This is much easier than trying to second-guess what might happen in court! bruppy mentioned CAP 637 but there’s far more of relevance to your question in CAP 642.