radar control services..a question from a duffer

[bogbeagle]

I'm flying in the open FIR en-route from A to B.

My flight rules are IFR and I want to transit a CTR "D".

On being cleared to transit the zone, I may well be given a Radar Control Service.......okay so far?

On leaving the zone and again entering the open FIR, is the RCS automatically terminated, irrespective of the controller' stating "radar service terminated"? In other words, now that I am clear of the zone, am I automatically responsible for terrain/traffic?

bogbeable

[foghorn]

I'm flying in the open FIR en-route from A to B.
My flight rules are IFR and I want to transit a CTR "D".
On being cleared to transit the zone, I may well be given a Radar Control Service.......okay so far?
On leaving the zone and again entering the open FIR, is the RCS automatically terminated, irrespective of the controller' stating "radar service terminated"? In other words, now that I am clear of the zone, am I automatically responsible for terrain/traffic?
bogbeable

A Radar Control Service can't be given outside controlled airspace, so, yes.

Officially the controller is supposed to either downgrade or terminate the service at the zone boundary, so you should be left in no doubt, however workload or just forgetfulness may prevent this.

Be aware that unless you are on a heading you are still responsible for terrain clearance even inside CAS.

[bogbeagle]

Thanks for that, Foghorn. I figured that this would be the case, but wasn't sure.

Bogbeable

[bogbeagle]

Rats! That's twice I've spelt my name wrong.

Bogbeagle

[chevvron]

When carrying out an autonomous crossing of controlled airspace, aircraft are (or were) placed under radar control prior to entry, thus RCS IS sometimes applied outside controlled airspace.

[eastern wiseguy]

When carrying out an autonomous crossing of controlled airspace, aircraft are (or were) placed under radar control prior to entry, thus RCS IS sometimes applied outside controlled airspace.


If doing that I will offer a RADAR ADVISORY SERVICE only upgrading to Radar CONTROL inside the zone .

[chevvron]

I was referring to class A airways being crossed autonomously wiseguy!

[eastern wiseguy]

I'm flying in the open FIR en-route from A to B.

My flight rules are IFR and I want to transit a CTR "D".






I was referring to class A airways being crossed autonomously wiseguy!


Didn't see CLASS A in the original question ....

[chevvron]

When do you autonomously penetrate anything other than class A?

[eastern wiseguy]

When do you autonomously penetrate anything other than class A?


Whats that got to do with the question asked?:ugh:

[PPRuNe Radar]

When do you autonomously penetrate anything other than class A?

When you autonomously penetrate class C or D. :ok:

[Turn It Off]

Do people have autonomy in class D airspace anywhere in the uk?

I'm sure we may get some crossings without people talking to us when the new airspace goes live around Cardiff and Bristol but it doesn't count if u r not allowed!!

[squibbler]

Do people have autonomy in class D airspace anywhere in the uk?

Manchester Low Level Route is Class D isn't it? No clearance required to transit so I guess that fits in with being autonomous.

[bookworm]

Be aware that unless you are on a heading you are still responsible for terrain clearance even inside CAS.

Er, surely not. MATS Pt 1 S1 Ch5

13.1 Controllers are to ensure that levels assigned to:
a) IFR flights in receipt of a radar control service
b) flights in receipt of a radar advisory service and
c) flights in receipt of a radar information service and receiving vectors;
provide adequate terrain clearance for the phase of flight as shown below...

[foghorn]

MATS Pt 1 S1 Ch5

Good point, well made.

[chevvron]

Squibbler: An autonomous penetration of controlled airspace is carried out by approved radar units with the controller concerned being responsible for separating his traffic from all other traffic in the regulated airspace thus avoiding the need to co-ordinate.
To get back to the original question: a MATZ is class G airspace, but instructions from ATC to a military pilot in a MATZ are mandatory, thus making it radar control for military aircraft; radar advisory service may be available to participating civil aircraft.

[Fatjoff]

Military terminal controllers do not put ac in the MATZ under a RCS. Yes instructions to military ac are mandatory, in much the same way as instructions are mandatory in an ATZ to all ac, but a RIS/RAS would normally be provided.

[Pierre Argh]

Chevron says instructions from ATC to a military pilot in a MATZ are mandatory, thus making it radar control for military aircraft

Negative Ghostrider... Radar Control is NOT provided to Mil pilots when flying within a MATZ in the UK. Yes he instructions are mandatory, but this would apply even in the pilot were under FIS, there is no need, or mandate to upgrade service to Radar Control (which IIRC can only be applied by Mil Controllers within a known traffic environment i.e. CAS)

[Standard Noise]

I'm sure we may get some crossings without people talking to us when the new airspace goes live around Cardiff and Bristol...

I wouldn't be too sure about that TIO. Not a particularly favourable idea over here.

[NorthSouth]

Jeez, this sort of thread really makes me worried. There was me thinking controllers knew what service they could/must provide in which airspace.
NS

[Fatjoff]

Jeez, this sort of thread really makes me worried. There was me thinking controllers knew what service they could/must provide in which airspace.
NS


Don't worry NS. I think Chevron is a civil controller probably not used to operating in the open FIR and I can understand his confusion. There are military controllers with no area experience who wouldn't go anywhere near CAS (there are even some who have who try to avoid it) and therefore don't fully understand its rules. As long we all know what we are doing in our own area of responsibility!

[Standard Noise]

Fatjoff - Some of us civvies work with CAS but also provide a LARS (Lower Airspace Radar Service) outside CAS.

The pilot should be made aware of the change of service on entering and leaving CAS. Problem solved.

[Pierre Argh]

There was me thinking controllers knew what service they could/must provide in which airspace God No... what else would we controllers have to talk about if we were clear on that? (and when we come close to having the matter sorted someone comes along and changes the rules!)

[chevvron]

Fatjoff - score zero for your assumption. I have over 30 years experience providing MATZ penetration service; how long have you been doing it?
Looking back to my last post, I agree I should have inserted the word 'effectively' before 'radar control'!! Think about it; under RAS a pilot has the option to refuse an ATC instruction; does he have this option if he is in airspace (regardless of classification) where instructions to him are mandatory?

[Pierre Argh]

Thirty years on MATZ crossing's... heck you must a. be bored of it by now, and b. be as old as me!

The fact that a UK military pilot cannot refuse an instruction whilst within a MATZ still does not even make it "effectively" Radar Control... because this caveat has no affect on the type of service or the conditions that might apply to that service... simply that the pilot's option to refuse/reject that instruction is withdrawn (except on the grounds of justifiable flight safety).

For example: A pilot in a MATZ can be under FIS, in which case the Controller can pass a mandatory instruction, BUT is not responsible for terrain clearance not, technically, for separation from other traffic... both of which they would be if providing RC.

[chevvron]

Not quite as old as Talkdownman!

[Talkdownman]

I think Chevron is a civil controller probably not used to operating in the open FIR Oh dear, Fatjoff! Chevvron is probably one of the most experienced Class G airspace civil ATCOs in the UK.
Chevvron, I think your must be up to about 35 years 'Open FIR' by now so you are probably older than your alzheimers permits.........