When to introduce radio usage to PPL course.

[Whirlybird]

Calling all students and recent PPLs, you are the experts on this......

When should I, as an instructor, start letting my students use the radio? I don't want to overload them too early on, when they really need to be thinking 100% about flying. OTOH, I don't want to leave it too long, so that it's a black art that they have to learn all at once, or annoy them because they feel I'm not letting them do enough.

What do you all think? When did you start using the radio, and how did you find it? Was using it early on detrimental? Was leaving it till later a problem? Does it even matter? And since f/w aircraft and helicopters vary a bit, I'd be even more interested in your answer if you're doing or recently acquired a PPL(H).

I know what the books say, but I'd like some feedback from real people on this.

Thanks in advance.

Whirly

[egbt]

Thinking back not many years…

I think there are 2 potential problems with RT, firstly nervousness about using it and 2ndly knowing what to say. In my case the first was not an issue (ex military) but the 2nd definitely was with occasional “brain death” however much it was rehearsed. I know of at least one other person who was confident using RT on the day job but not so flying.

I would therefore suggest that RT should come very early for the easy things where you can pre-brief and/or where it’s pretty standard stuff such as a call for taxi or in the circuit, but leave more complicated things (cold calling an ATCU) till later, possibly much later depending on the student.

Over

[wombat13]

7 hours and I could not believe the increase in workload.

[mcgoo]

I was gradually introduced from the second hour, quite tough but it built confidence early on and made me more aware of the bigger picture, looking for traffic around the circuit etc

[modelman]

After my trial lesson,I was on the radio straightaway.Simple stuff at first ( did not seem simple at first though.....) like taxy instruction.moving on to r/t within the circuit and request to transit through CAS.
I am 32 hours into my PPL and I am okay with r/t that I have heard before but still sometimes miss a bit of long transmissions but it's getting better.
I think getting the student onto the radio early is a good move-if they find themselves overloaded then perhaps reduce the r/t work for a bit-depends on the student I suppose.

[speedbird676]

Personally I would encourage any pilot in training to get themselves a copy of MS Flight Sim and get a bit of practice with the online ATC through VATSIM.

I did this for a year or so before doing my PPL and it was a huge help. My instructor introduced me to R/T after about 7 or 8 hours and was amazed at how fluent I sounded, he was very impressed with VATSIM and now actively encourages his students to use it to gain experience in the comfort of their own home under no pressure.

[Blinkz]

I think RT should be introduced right from the start. Only a little to start with obviously, the odd asking for taxi and departure etc, it is such a confidence booster and really makes you feel like a proper pilot. I wasn't allowed to use the radio for a cpl of hours and remember really wanting to try and do it.

[Jinkster]

I let them have a go on the ground first - tell them what to say if not write it down and then let them say it.....

beats the 'stage fright'

;)

[tangovictor]

Whiry, there's a huge / massive difference btwn heli / fixed wing training for the student. As Heli's require infinantly more concentration.with heli's I would ( after a few hours training ) ask, the student what questions to ask ATC and what the possible response will be, that way, the fast reply doesn't come as to much of a "WHAT did he say ? "
second problem with the r22, is student sits right seat, the QFE is set, however adjusting to QNH requires not only a hand, but a big lean to reach which is very difficult to cope with at first.
Fixed wing, 2nd hour of training make a start, and again, if the instructor asks what are you going to ask, and what is the response going to be, before the transmission, there should be no major problems
TV

[FlyingForFun]

I can only assume that TV is correct about the big difference between fixed wing and heli - my total heli time doesn't qualify me to comment.

But, from a fixed-wing position, my answer would be asap. I would generally start with the first lesson after the trial lesson, ie once the student has decided to take lessons regularly. I'd only have students doing radio work on the ground - in the air, I'll take over and let them concentrate on the flying.

To start with, I'd tell them exactly what to say, and have them presss the ptt button and say it. I'd handle the readback - all I'm really interested in right now is getting over any shyness of using the radio, I don't really care about exactly what's being said. Once the student has got over the initial shyness, I would continue to handle the readbacks myself, but point out to the student how the readbacks work. Generally within a few hours, they'd be ready to do the readbacks themselves - although the readback of the initial call, which includes several pieces of information (taxy route, holding point, runway, QNH) I'd usually expect to have to help with, by either writing down the instructions for the student to read back, or helping the student anticipate the reply, depending on the circumstances and the student.

Radio in the air I would only introduce once the student is in the circuit. Get them doing the downwind call and the final call - not on their first circuit session, because they'll be too busy flying, but very early on in circuits.

That's all the radio they need to be able to go solo.

After solo, I would do a dual trip on leaving and re-joining the circuit, followed by a solo repeat of that trip. The briefing for this trip should include use of the radio outside the circuit. More radio, including freecalls and "pass your message", I would introduce during the navigation phase of the course.

Of course, the key is flexibility. I had one student for whom English was not his first language, and how to get him comfortable on the radio required a lot of thought and effort from myself and my colleagues. Also, the environment where you train (is your airfield ATC, FISO or A/G, do you have a nearby LARS facility, do you do your circuit training at your home airfield, etc, etc) will affect how to introduce radio to your students.

Hope that's given you a few thoughts to ponder on.

FFF
--------------

[acuba 290]

let student do RT from first lesson if he wish that and maybe has some experience (for example from Flight Simulator Online Flights in VATSIM), but be standby to take over if he give you a sighn, that he don't know what to answer at the moment. IMHO best way ...

[MyData]

Looking at my notes, I did my first R/T on the third lesson (third hour). It was to do the radio check and request for info while still static on the ground. I had written down what to say and what to expect in return - and still found it hard :{

Following that, I was introduced gradually to in-flight conversations when we weren't up to much e.g. returning to the field and making the call to the tower etc. Still difficult to do but I could focus on that rather than the flying.

Gradually I took over more and more until I wasn't prompted and the instructor simply sat back.

So I guess it is a judgement call on how much the student can handle, but I would advocate sooner rather than later so that any shyness or concern can be overcome.

[Whirlybird]

Thanks, folks. This is all useful stuff.

I'm not sure one way or the other about this "huge" difference between f/w and rotary. Helicopters certainly take longer to learn in the early stages, but does this make any difference as to overload when using the radio? I'm not sure.

Do we have any rotary PPLs who can comment? Or people who've learned both, but more recently than I have? Though the problem with that is, when you come to the second PPL, radio use is familiar anyway.

Keep 'em coming. :ok:

[flower]

Ironically a question we discussed in the flying club yesterday.
I think RT should start as soon as humanely possible, for some reason the radio invokes fear in many , when it shouldn't.
I try and get over to students that we aren't laughing our heads off at them when they don't get it quite right. Being able to use the radio correctly and with confidence could be a lifesaver one day.

[stiknruda]

I belong to the the "as soon as possible" school. It is just something that you need to be able to do and perfection comes with practice.

As to the differences between f/w and r/w, (caveat - I can not fly a hecilopter, but have spent quite a few hours in one recently) the only big thing I've noticed is selecting a new frequency at times of high workload, where a spare pair of hands can be a real boon.

[AerBabe]

Another vote for very first lesson. I was given a sheet with the first call on it and asked if I'd like to try. Then, for the brief calls required during the flight, my instructor would say them first and I'd repeat them. If there was any sign of confusion or too much hesitation he'd take over.

[potkettleblack]

Just like Aerbabe it was first lessson for me and I to was given a sheet of paper with standard calls. My instructor sat down with me and talked through the ATC side of things for a typical flight as part of the briefing and I furiously made notes for my kneeboard. He said not to worry and if I wasn't coping that he will jump in. The reality was he left me to it and I am sure all along that he had no intention of helping me out unless I had gone completely blank or stuffed up big time.

Personally I think leaving the R/T till later just makes it into something bigger than it really is and students will potentially work themselves up into a bit of a frenzy in anticipation of that big R/T day.

[cyclicmicky]

I started to be given radio work after about fifteen hours or so. The workload does increase but I think it is a neccessary part of your training. I don't know if you can do a first solo without radio, I trained at Coventry and I don't think that I would have been allowed to complete a circuit without it.
There are frequently the occasions when you ask your instructor what was said..it seems to me that the ear becomes more attuned as time goes by, I found it useful to write as much as possible down on my knee pad.

Longer transmissions when being given a squawk, a QNH and then being asked for your altitude and position all at once can be quite daunting at first but it does seem to become a task that is just part of the routine the more it is practised.
There are some ATCs that are quite difficult to understand, and some who are very clear and concise...maybe this is down to their own mic's, maybe some of them mumble a bit.

A lady of shorter stature who was also training at the same time as me had problems setting QNH and QFE due to the students right side seating arrangement, she overcame this by slipping a short piece of garden hose over the altimeter setting knob!! ...not sure if this would be a Robinson approved modification though.

Hope this helps
Micky

[Whirlygig]

I'm not sure one way or the other about this "huge" difference between f/w and rotary. Helicopters certainly take longer to learn in the early stages, but does this make any difference as to overload when using the radio?
Whirly, have I told you where my personal title originated?

I used introduced in stages to the radio (and I learnt at an international airport!). Firstly to request start, then maybe the downwind call in a circuit, then nearly all the circuit calls. But, just as I had nearly got the hang of a hover, (i.e. I could keep the aircraft in the grass circle about 10ft radius!), my intructor asked me to request right hand circuit northside. I couldn't speak. I pressed the button, I opened my mouth, no words came out! Actually one word did :mad: .

So, I was introduced to it straight away pretty much. Also, my instructor would say, do the hovering bit to the hold and I would request the departure.

Cheers

Whirls

[Mad Girl]

Only 15 hours so far (still in the circuit) but been doing it virtually from Day 1.

I've got a sneaky suspicion my instructor hated RT himself many years ago and recognises a kindred spirit - Tongue tied, brain dead and a total pleb when faced with talking on the radio (to someone I know!!!).

I do all the preflight calls, circuit calls and he makes me do the overhead join calls if we're out of the circuit.

Haven't done any advanced stuff yet but he keeps nagging me to do my RT exam now to make it easier later.

[Say again s l o w l y]

R/T is one of those things that can really dent confidence or build it.

There are a few things that leave a lasting impression on students, one is that no matter how the lesson went, if the landing is good, then the student goes away happy. If it's rubbish then a good lesson can be coloured.

Radio work is obviously important, but I prefer to ease people into it so that they don't put R/T too high on the priority list.
The old phrase "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is important, so I prefer my students to get to grips with the flying side before distracting them with (seemingly) complex radio procedures.

It is however dependant on the individual, if they have the available capacity, then I'll push them a bit harder and get them to use the radio from very early on.

I like to brief about it early and always get the student to try and preempt any calls to try and build up their situational awareness and confidence, afterall using the radio is all about confidence, more so than many other parts of flying.

[BroomstickPilot]

Whirly,

I agree totally with Flying for Fun, with the addition that learning to speak on radio in the aeroplane should go hand in hand with ground training in radiotelephony in a proper, simulated radio setup with an instructor.

There are three reasons for this:-

1. The student will have to take the radiotelephony licence exams sooner or later, and the sooner he/she acquires radio skills the better for getting through the R/T exams (especially the practical).

2. Once you have your radio skills, the remaining tasks involved in getting to Flying Skilltest standard become that much easier.

3. It is much easier to learn to compose, interpret and write down radio calls in a quiet radio training room when you aren't spending £2 per minute.

I learned to fly in 1960 in a totally non-radio environment. I then had a break of forty years when I didn't fly at all, after which I made a return to flying. On my return, I was truly taken aback by the increased workload imposed just by radio alone.

This task was exacerbated by the fact that no two aeroplanes I climbed into had the same radio fit. I ended up fumbling with unfamiliar knobs on each one.

I would go so far as to say that (ground studies apart) learning radio is fully half of the task of learning to fly.

Best regards,

Broomstick.

[davidatter708]

Introduce them slowly for example the radio check and airfield info and then downwind. I was introduced in my third lesson and do the whole lot now

[englishal]

From day 1.

You may as well get used to it from early on, it doesn't matter if the student makes mistakes, these are easily corrected by the instructor.

First day out I had to talk to Clearance delivery, ground and tower........

[Glasgow_Flyer]

When I was learning using the radio was one of the best parts - I was despirate to use it during the t/l nevermind anything else - but that came from years of listening to scanners and using VATSIM!

When I started the PPL course, I started using the radio from day one - initially just to call a/g for radio check and information. The a/d I learned from was well used to student pilots - and hey, may as well start at the start! Scottish Information was also very helpful - and well used to students learning.

Next step when actually up flying was just to call the station - and then let the instructor reply when they came back to us - gradually working up to asking for zone entry and FIS.

I know a lot of people have a real fear of the radio - and come x-country time the radio becomes the main thing holding them back. Start at the start and gradually build it up.

[Nimrod615]

I found having a quick ref guide, laminated so I could ammend it in flight, with a typical script on it. Radio check and Taxi, Departure clearance, etc. As the instructor you get time to fill in things like Runway in Use and QFE/QNH.

And then just let the stude read from a script, right from the start.

BUT, as all good instructors know: what works for one wont work for another. This technique has helped many of my students.

However, every now and then the controller will throw something in, even you weren't expecting!!!:suspect: :oh:

This generally builds the confidence, so I stop writing in the details so they have to remember the QNH/rnwy/HDG etc but still let them use the script as a guide filling in the blanks themselves.

It's also a tried and tested method. I got the idea from my g/f who's an ATCO. Apparently thats how they start at the college, using a script!


One other thing I always do is take them to meet controllers. It makes such a difference if they can put a face to a voice, even if it's the wrong face!

Give it a go....if it works for you I'd like to hear about it!:ok:

[rotorfossil]

One answer is to do all the early R/T practice on the ground.We used to have a couple of headsets, two switches and an old radio as an amplifier, and the student could practice R/T with an instructor or with another student. Saves a lot of embarrasment on the radio and particularly valuable for practising Matz penetration, controlled airspace and emergency calls.

[172driver]

Day 1, lesson 1 - it's an integral part of flying.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Whirley:

Go for a ride with them in their car.

If they can drive and talk on their mobile then they can use the radio...:E

Chuck E.

[Waryhawk]

I think it is important to start using RT early on but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the aircraft. As previously mentioned it does depend on the individual student. For example, the student can arrive say an hour early for their lesson and just sit and listen to the transmissions on the local RT frequency. What the student hears can then be discussed with the instructor and applied to the following lesson in the air. RT transmissions can be practiced on the ground, and then moving on, the instructor can ask the student what needs to be said to ATC in the air and then after receiving the response ask what the student heard.

The student can then move on to transmitting him or herself, starting with the easier requests, e.g. taxi, moving up to the slightly longer requests such as MATZ penetration.

The important factor is confidence, slowly getting the student used to RT. I remember learning, and on one occasion my instructor told me what to say to the TWR to obtain taxi instructions to which I remembered half and simply quoted the registration and 'request taxi north' He burst into laughter and made me feel real confident!!

[airborne_artist]

I suggest that the instructor has to judge when the stude is ready to accept the load. For some it's after 30 mins, for others it's longer. Most will see it as a really fun part of the overall package, and want to get on with it asap. Most people who want to fly dream of being able to sit there talking to the tower like a pro. I know I did!

[Saab Dastard]

Broomstick's comment:

to speak on radio in the aeroplane should go hand in hand with ground training

sums it up for me - not only should using the radio start as early as possible, but CORRECT use of the radio should be started as soon as possible. And that is best done on the ground (as others have said), with CAP413 and whatever aids are available to the FTC and the student.

SD

[Whirlygig]

If they can drive and talk on their mobile then they can use the radio
My staggering loss of mental capacity when I first tried to hover and talk made me realise (and I didn't think this was possible as a woman) that I did use some brain power in talking :p After that I was very wary of using my mobile whilst driving!

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

[QUOTE]My staggering loss of mental capacity when I first tried to hover and talk made me realise (and I didn't think this was possible as a woman) that I did use some brain power in talking After that I was very wary of using my mobile whilst driving!
[QUOTE]

Now Whirls, I'm sure you've been driving long enough to be able to cope with using your mobile too. Especially since you're a woman AND a helicopter pilot. After all, you've developed spare capacity since those days. So have I. I never thought I'd be able to talk non-stop through an autorotation and control the RRPM and make sure the student doesn't kill us....but I seem to be managing it.

But seriously, this is the crux of the matter. And maybe rotary flying IS different from f/w. On the first few lessons, my students are usually concentrating 110%. I sometimes realise it's time to stop, even if we haven't done a full hour, when someone literally doesn't hear what I say, or pushes the controls in the wrong direction after they've been doing it right for a while. Classic symptoms of overload. Now, if I add in the radio - just the simple calls on the apron, and to say we're returning to the field, for instance - will that be too much? Or is it different enough that it's not a problem? I can't remember from my own experience! What do you think?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that my experiences are a bit different to a lot of the posters above, except maybe Broomstick Pilot.

I learned initially in a very radio-intense environment (actually just plain intense, along with a fairly sadistic RAF QFI who hated students). I couldn't cope, and as a result failed by UAS course.

Determined to learn to fly whatever, I went and paid for lessons in an environment which was (not planned that way, just happened) totally non-radio. I found the deletion of the radio requirement very helpful, and did a lot of help break down my loss of confidence with the RAF, and turn me into a half-decent student pilot.

I *then* had to change school (work moved me to the other end of the country, not anything wrong with the school), to one where radio use was mandatory. Having previously soloed in a non-radio environment, I'd got through the barrier of learning the basic piloting skills, and then had spare capacity to learn to use radio as well. This helped a lot.


However, realistically most people can't do this - the majority of students will rarely have the opportunity to fly in a totally non-radio environment, let alone get to first solo without having to talk to anybody. Nonetheless, I think personally that there's a lot to be said for allowing a student pilot to crack the basic handling skills of the aeroplane, and then introducing radio after that: this certainly worked well for me.

G

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Whirley:

The use of radio has to be secondary to the control of the aircraft.

There fore one must dovetail radio learning into the lessons based on the capacity of any given student to perform the two tasks at once...it will vary wildly from student to student and even lesson to lesson.

The helicopter not only introduces a pilot to a demension that we as humans were not designed to do ( flight ) the G.d Damned things will fly standing still which adds another demension to the getting used to it.....

Remember the trouble you had the first few times you tried to hover? The concentration is so intense that if someone hit you over the head with a hammer you wouldn't notice..........then all of a sudden bingo, you got the picture and the feel and you can hover...

The problem you were having was overconcentration and muscle tensing caused by anxiety and the inability to understand why the thing was wandering all over the countryside despite the effort you were putting into keeping it stable and fixed in one spot over the ground.

So after all this rambling I would suggest you tailor the radio work into the lessons based on the stress level of each individual student so as to ensure they are not overloaded.

How much is the fine for driving your car and using the mobile these days?

And I refuse to believe that any woman can not talk and do something else at the same time....:E

Chuck E.

[microlight AV8R]

Started using radio on second lesson. Crib sheet in cockpit for the regular calls. Has now become second nature and I was completely comfortable with communicating clearly long before first solo.

[Paris Dakar]

Whirly,

My PPL(A) was completed many years back but I'd still like to contribute if I may...

Personally, I think the right time is when you [Whirly] think the student is ready for the introduction to it. I know that may sound a bit silly but I found that in order to get the basic flying bits right, the RT had to wait a couple of lessons - there was just too much for me to take in. It was the same when I learned to drive - I could steer without any problems at all but ask me to steer around a corner and then change gear, and all hell broke loose.

There will be students who will be happy to talk on the radio within minutes of first setting foot in a cockpit, and there will be Paris Dakar's (not too many, I'm sure) that need just that little bit of extra time.

[niknak]

As an atco I would say that encouragement from day one is to be applauded.
When someone is learning I'll try and give them as much latitude as possible with the R/T, I'd rather they asked me to repeat something 3 times than bumble on not knowing what was going on.

Its just a personal thing (but echoed by many colleagues), encourage your students to spend some time in ATC, getting to know the people and what goes on on the other side of the microphone can be an enormous help.

[Smiffie]

Whirly,

My two penneth worth having just completed my PPL(H) recently; my instructor introduced r/t by hour 7. I personally found that I had more than enough on my plate just trying to master the basic handling of the heli without the added pressure of RT, but I do appreciate that the earlier you can start the better it is. I made sure that I paid close attention to what my instructor was saying and asked him to explain any questions I had at during the debrief after each lesson so at least I felt as prepared as possible when I was told to have a go.

As to when to introduce RT to a new student's repitoire of skills, that has to be an instructor decision made on a student by student basis but with heli's it is a heavy enough workload for the new student just trying to master the basic handling skills without added pressures. All that being said a student needs to have a clear understanding of CCT r/t before that first solo !

S.

[Whirlybird]

Smiffie,

with heli's it is a heavy enough workload for the new student just trying to master the basic handling skills without added pressures.

Thank you for that. That was my feeling...and still is. I hadn't realised, till reading some of these posts, just how different f/w and rotary are when you're learning. After all, when I did my PPL(H) I already had a PPL(A), so it was relatively easy for me - and radio use was no big deal. But when my students are trying to do the start-up and learn about three controls and try to master a bit of hovering.....I can tell they're already taking in all they probably can.

I've been bringing in the radio about hour 4 - 8, depending on the student, and I think this is probably about right. And I now have a nice laminated card for the radio calls, and this helps a lot. :ok:

[planeenglish]

Dear Whirlybird,

I have been reading this thread with much interest from its beginning. I, who teach aviation English, am very interested in any aspect of language and radio communications.

I do not teach R/T without a professional pilot or ATC in the classroom. I only support the teaching with a language aspect (comprehension, pronunciation, interaction and fluency). However, I have studied the concept of radiotelephony and have also memorized it and its use, etc.

I recently started studying for my PPL(A) and found that memorizing the phraseologies and actually implementing them into communications are very different. A bit of shyness, other things to concentrate on and the instructor's watchful eyes instilled a memory block and found that actually producing the words with my voice was very difficult. Theory and practice are quite different.

I prefer that I get used to the feel of piloting an aircraft and then I can start to make radio contact.

It is also important that I stress here that I am studying my PPL for my own knowledge. I fly with my partner often as it is easier to travel by plane than by car most times and would prefer to know the basics of flying, if an emergency situation arises. This is just to understand what he is doing, for my own sense of security and ease. I also feel it will help me in my everyday teaching. I do not plan to pursue a career as a pilot.

My partner, who is a flight instructor, says he has his students start immediately. He says he has them take care of all communications during the taxi and some during the flight right from the start. He also said that it is subjective. He sees which students can handle more communications during certain maneuvers and does the communications when he sees they aren't able to handle them. He also has them do all communications in English (we're in Italy)more often than not.

I hope this has given a twist to your usual answer.

PS, Regarding the questions I had posed to you privately, my computer has crashed and have lost your email. I have the questions ready, if you could let me know when a good time for you I will send them on to your private messages here at pprune.

Best to all,
PE

[ShyTorque]

I think it's worth talking about R/T during the first pre-flight briefing. At least outlining the calls required is a good start, tied in to the ATC requirements at the airfield in question.

Whether or not the student has capacity to actually make the calls when his/her hands are full of sticks is another matter and should be introduced as and when the instructor thinks the student will absorb the tuition.

Talking of differences between FW and Rotary.....before starting a FW engine it is tradition to call "CLEAR PROP!"

How many rotary pilots have been taught to call "CLEAR ROTORS"?

[Whirlybird]

I just call CLEAR, for both f/w and rotary. Members of the public have no idea what a prop is anyway, and a loudly yelled CLEAR gets the point across. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

But Whirly,

Members of the public shouldn't be allowed airside (unless of course they are wearing a hi-viz vest, in which case they are completely safe). ;)