When to introduce radio usage to PPL course.

[Whirlybird]

Calling all students and recent PPLs, you are the experts on this......

When should I, as an instructor, start letting my students use the radio? I don't want to overload them too early on, when they really need to be thinking 100% about flying. OTOH, I don't want to leave it too long, so that it's a black art that they have to learn all at once, or annoy them because they feel I'm not letting them do enough.

What do you all think? When did you start using the radio, and how did you find it? Was using it early on detrimental? Was leaving it till later a problem? Does it even matter? And since f/w aircraft and helicopters vary a bit, I'd be even more interested in your answer if you're doing or recently acquired a PPL(H).

I know what the books say, but I'd like some feedback from real people on this.

Thanks in advance.

Whirly

[egbt]

Thinking back not many years…

I think there are 2 potential problems with RT, firstly nervousness about using it and 2ndly knowing what to say. In my case the first was not an issue (ex military) but the 2nd definitely was with occasional “brain death” however much it was rehearsed. I know of at least one other person who was confident using RT on the day job but not so flying.

I would therefore suggest that RT should come very early for the easy things where you can pre-brief and/or where it’s pretty standard stuff such as a call for taxi or in the circuit, but leave more complicated things (cold calling an ATCU) till later, possibly much later depending on the student.

Over

[wombat13]

7 hours and I could not believe the increase in workload.

[mcgoo]

I was gradually introduced from the second hour, quite tough but it built confidence early on and made me more aware of the bigger picture, looking for traffic around the circuit etc

[modelman]

RT use

After my trial lesson,I was on the radio straightaway.Simple stuff at first ( did not seem simple at first though.....) like taxy instruction.moving on to r/t within the circuit and request to transit through CAS.
I am 32 hours into my PPL and I am okay with r/t that I have heard before but still sometimes miss a bit of long transmissions but it's getting better.
I think getting the student onto the radio early is a good move-if they find themselves overloaded then perhaps reduce the r/t work for a bit-depends on the student I suppose.

[speedbird676]

Personally I would encourage any pilot in training to get themselves a copy of MS Flight Sim and get a bit of practice with the online ATC through VATSIM.

I did this for a year or so before doing my PPL and it was a huge help. My instructor introduced me to R/T after about 7 or 8 hours and was amazed at how fluent I sounded, he was very impressed with VATSIM and now actively encourages his students to use it to gain experience in the comfort of their own home under no pressure.

[Blinkz]

I think RT should be introduced right from the start. Only a little to start with obviously, the odd asking for taxi and departure etc, it is such a confidence booster and really makes you feel like a proper pilot. I wasn't allowed to use the radio for a cpl of hours and remember really wanting to try and do it.

[Jinkster]

I let them have a go on the ground first - tell them what to say if not write it down and then let them say it.....

beats the 'stage fright'

[tangovictor]

Whiry, there's a huge / massive difference btwn heli / fixed wing training for the student. As Heli's require infinantly more concentration.with heli's I would ( after a few hours training ) ask, the student what questions to ask ATC and what the possible response will be, that way, the fast reply doesn't come as to much of a "WHAT did he say ? "
second problem with the r22, is student sits right seat, the QFE is set, however adjusting to QNH requires not only a hand, but a big lean to reach which is very difficult to cope with at first.
Fixed wing, 2nd hour of training make a start, and again, if the instructor asks what are you going to ask, and what is the response going to be, before the transmission, there should be no major problems
TV

[FlyingForFun]

I can only assume that TV is correct about the big difference between fixed wing and heli - my total heli time doesn't qualify me to comment.

But, from a fixed-wing position, my answer would be asap. I would generally start with the first lesson after the trial lesson, ie once the student has decided to take lessons regularly. I'd only have students doing radio work on the ground - in the air, I'll take over and let them concentrate on the flying.

To start with, I'd tell them exactly what to say, and have them presss the ptt button and say it. I'd handle the readback - all I'm really interested in right now is getting over any shyness of using the radio, I don't really care about exactly what's being said. Once the student has got over the initial shyness, I would continue to handle the readbacks myself, but point out to the student how the readbacks work. Generally within a few hours, they'd be ready to do the readbacks themselves - although the readback of the initial call, which includes several pieces of information (taxy route, holding point, runway, QNH) I'd usually expect to have to help with, by either writing down the instructions for the student to read back, or helping the student anticipate the reply, depending on the circumstances and the student.

Radio in the air I would only introduce once the student is in the circuit. Get them doing the downwind call and the final call - not on their first circuit session, because they'll be too busy flying, but very early on in circuits.

That's all the radio they need to be able to go solo.

After solo, I would do a dual trip on leaving and re-joining the circuit, followed by a solo repeat of that trip. The briefing for this trip should include use of the radio outside the circuit. More radio, including freecalls and "pass your message", I would introduce during the navigation phase of the course.

Of course, the key is flexibility. I had one student for whom English was not his first language, and how to get him comfortable on the radio required a lot of thought and effort from myself and my colleagues. Also, the environment where you train (is your airfield ATC, FISO or A/G, do you have a nearby LARS facility, do you do your circuit training at your home airfield, etc, etc) will affect how to introduce radio to your students.

Hope that's given you a few thoughts to ponder on.

FFF
--------------

[acuba 290]

let student do RT from first lesson if he wish that and maybe has some experience (for example from Flight Simulator Online Flights in VATSIM), but be standby to take over if he give you a sighn, that he don't know what to answer at the moment. IMHO best way ...

[MyData]

Looking at my notes, I did my first R/T on the third lesson (third hour). It was to do the radio check and request for info while still static on the ground. I had written down what to say and what to expect in return - and still found it hard

Following that, I was introduced gradually to in-flight conversations when we weren't up to much e.g. returning to the field and making the call to the tower etc. Still difficult to do but I could focus on that rather than the flying.

Gradually I took over more and more until I wasn't prompted and the instructor simply sat back.

So I guess it is a judgement call on how much the student can handle, but I would advocate sooner rather than later so that any shyness or concern can be overcome.

[Whirlybird]

Thanks, folks. This is all useful stuff.

I'm not sure one way or the other about this "huge" difference between f/w and rotary. Helicopters certainly take longer to learn in the early stages, but does this make any difference as to overload when using the radio? I'm not sure.

Do we have any rotary PPLs who can comment? Or people who've learned both, but more recently than I have? Though the problem with that is, when you come to the second PPL, radio use is familiar anyway.

Keep 'em coming.

[flower]

Ironically a question we discussed in the flying club yesterday.
I think RT should start as soon as humanely possible, for some reason the radio invokes fear in many , when it shouldn't.
I try and get over to students that we aren't laughing our heads off at them when they don't get it quite right. Being able to use the radio correctly and with confidence could be a lifesaver one day.

[stiknruda]

I belong to the the "as soon as possible" school. It is just something that you need to be able to do and perfection comes with practice.

As to the differences between f/w and r/w, (caveat - I can not fly a hecilopter, but have spent quite a few hours in one recently) the only big thing I've noticed is selecting a new frequency at times of high workload, where a spare pair of hands can be a real boon.

[AerBabe]

Another vote for very first lesson. I was given a sheet with the first call on it and asked if I'd like to try. Then, for the brief calls required during the flight, my instructor would say them first and I'd repeat them. If there was any sign of confusion or too much hesitation he'd take over.

[potkettleblack]

Just like Aerbabe it was first lessson for me and I to was given a sheet of paper with standard calls. My instructor sat down with me and talked through the ATC side of things for a typical flight as part of the briefing and I furiously made notes for my kneeboard. He said not to worry and if I wasn't coping that he will jump in. The reality was he left me to it and I am sure all along that he had no intention of helping me out unless I had gone completely blank or stuffed up big time.

Personally I think leaving the R/T till later just makes it into something bigger than it really is and students will potentially work themselves up into a bit of a frenzy in anticipation of that big R/T day.

[cyclicmicky]

I started to be given radio work after about fifteen hours or so. The workload does increase but I think it is a neccessary part of your training. I don't know if you can do a first solo without radio, I trained at Coventry and I don't think that I would have been allowed to complete a circuit without it.
There are frequently the occasions when you ask your instructor what was said..it seems to me that the ear becomes more attuned as time goes by, I found it useful to write as much as possible down on my knee pad.

Longer transmissions when being given a squawk, a QNH and then being asked for your altitude and position all at once can be quite daunting at first but it does seem to become a task that is just part of the routine the more it is practised.
There are some ATCs that are quite difficult to understand, and some who are very clear and concise...maybe this is down to their own mic's, maybe some of them mumble a bit.

A lady of shorter stature who was also training at the same time as me had problems setting QNH and QFE due to the students right side seating arrangement, she overcame this by slipping a short piece of garden hose over the altimeter setting knob!! ...not sure if this would be a Robinson approved modification though.

Hope this helps
Micky

[Whirlygig]

I'm not sure one way or the other about this "huge" difference between f/w and rotary. Helicopters certainly take longer to learn in the early stages, but does this make any difference as to overload when using the radio?

Whirly, have I told you where my personal title originated?

I used introduced in stages to the radio (and I learnt at an international airport!). Firstly to request start, then maybe the downwind call in a circuit, then nearly all the circuit calls. But, just as I had nearly got the hang of a hover, (i.e. I could keep the aircraft in the grass circle about 10ft radius!), my intructor asked me to request right hand circuit northside. I couldn't speak. I pressed the button, I opened my mouth, no words came out! Actually one word did .

So, I was introduced to it straight away pretty much. Also, my instructor would say, do the hovering bit to the hold and I would request the departure.

Cheers

Whirls

[Mad Girl]

Only 15 hours so far (still in the circuit) but been doing it virtually from Day 1.

I've got a sneaky suspicion my instructor hated RT himself many years ago and recognises a kindred spirit - Tongue tied, brain dead and a total pleb when faced with talking on the radio (to someone I know!!!).

I do all the preflight calls, circuit calls and he makes me do the overhead join calls if we're out of the circuit.

Haven't done any advanced stuff yet but he keeps nagging me to do my RT exam now to make it easier later.