Aberdeen Flying Club

[Richard Taylor]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere.

I am hearing that FAS have put the Aberdeen Flying Club up for sale, £170,000 asking price for the ops.

Will a buyer be found or could this spell the end of main flying club activities at ABZ.

[padded cell]

By the sounds of things FAS ABZ may not be in business for much longer ... let alone find a buyer for £170,000. :oh:

Still, there's already another flying club up and running so there will be plenty of flying club activities. :E

[FORKINELL]

Yep the new club are flying .......& they have fuel too :E

[3PARA]

Being slightly pedantic FAS own the Aberdeen Flying SCHOOL which is on the market.

Grampian Airways Flying Club are operating airways equipped warrior & saratoga a/c & provide a full range of training including IMC training & PPL hire thanks to the support of many of the previous Aberdeen Flying CLUB members who want to see "the Club" return to it's former glory :ok:

[Mr R Sole]

Flight Academy Scotland (Aberdeen) has been in a downward spiral for some time but the final nails are being hammered into the coffin. Some of the problems are bills not being paid with fuel being denied recently and snags building up on the aircraft and not getting fixed. No doubt students will start voting with their feet and understandably too!

Shame - it could of been a fantastic little club but the new set up 'next door' seems to be more organised and they have plans for a social element to the club which has been lacking ever since FAS took over.

As for finding a buyer... now that is something to have a laugh at! :D They will be in for a very long wait!

[FORKINELL]

The link to the sales site is here:

http://www.business-partnership.com/newTBP/a361508.aspx

AI has languished in Perth with a time expired engine for about a year & has been robbed of parts to keep the other two 152's flying. The 172 has relocated to cumbernauld & customers who had booked it in July were told it's gone tech. The Ops assistant leaves later this month, the 3 full time flying instructors are at present 2 & will probably be 1 soon as they've slashed the more senior instructor's retainer by £2k per annum.

£150,000 ? I wouldn't pay £1.50:yuk:

[padded cell]

Think the retainer was slashed by a lot more than £2K!

[A.Viator]

Grampian Flying Club flew all day today, Clubhouse was packed. One of the best days I've seen there. The atmosphere was great - almost like a celebration - people in and out all day.

Looks like the Flight Academy students and remaining instructors who couldn't fly today were in with the Grampian people. By 17.00hrs Signature were still refusing to provide Flight Academy with fuel and there old bowser was still parked in front of FAS's one remaining aircraft in ABZ. Situation looking quite bad for FAS in ABZ :-(

Anybody know if Cumbernauld is still operating?

[FORKINELL]

By all accounts FAS were quite subdued Yesterday after the bungled "Friday night take away" attempt.:= At least there's more room on the apron for Grampian's expansion plans & their already thriving club now that FAS are down to one dry 152 with no-one willing to fly it.Even the newer of the 2 instructors, who hung on as long as they could, is believed to be going back to his previous job.
Just hope everyone gets paid & doesn't have to ask "where's My money?" or resort to litigation although at this stage the signs don't look good :ouch:

Maybe the baseball bats were on tic too & have been reposessed :E

[Richard Taylor]

Yes on Fri they flew up with a 172 & 152 in tow, but left only with the 172.

A question though. If bills were unpaid, how come ABZ allowed them in but, more pertinently, allow the 172 out again? Shouldn't BAA or somebody not have blocked the taxiway to prevent this? It's not as if they sneaked in!

Or was that too simple.

[kui2324]

Think the photographic evidence would suggest that they flew in with a 172 which had been 'on loan' to Cumbernauld for the last number of weeks with four up. The 2 152s had remained in ABZ other than maintenance trips to Perth. It was the 152s which didn't leave.

FAS have a very large unpaid fuel bill, having apparently having paid their insurance and the large NATs bill, so it was Signature who were well within their rights to not allow the 152s to leave until the debt's cleared.

[SkippyX]

Its a real shame when this sort of thing happens.
The atmosphere was great - almost like a celebration - people in and out all day.

Hmm I bet the the instructors didn't think it was that great, I wouldn't like to turn up to work one day to find no fuel and somone trying to steal my planes.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I did my first solo in AI in 1988 when it was in Jersey! Gorgeous little aeroplane. Wondered where it had got to.

Sad if it is being used as a "christmas tree" for parts...:{

[Mr R Sole]

So with regards to the Friday night 'Great Escape', did they decide on which VFR exit lane they were going to use... Tom, Dick or Harry?

[youngskywalker]

Shame they are going, great entertainment :(

[The Cunning Linguist]

I can confirm that Cumbernauld is still up and running albeit in very limited form. I was at PIK recently when an instructor taxied their katana into a bollard wrecking the prop, (see below)

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j45/Alboran/FASprop.jpg

It may be that the FI's at Aberdeen will need to resort to legal action to secure their money owed. I know that both the original FI's from Cumbernauld had to resort to legal action to secure their final payments before leaving, although not before one of the said FI's took rather more direct action with the manager concerned. :p

Good luck to the FI's and all the best to Grampian.

[FORKINELL]

DR was positioned to Perth for a 50 hour check with 8 hours still left on Saturday but the attempt to do the same with RN was thwarted by signature. Not that it was predictable :-)

[FORKINELL]

QUOTE: although not before one of the said FI's took rather more direct action with the manager concerned.

Shouldn't the smilie have been :ouch: ?

:E

[The Cunning Lingiust]

What a state! I wonder if the prop smashing pilot was the same one that took off on the wrong runway at ABZ last week and is now the subject of a MOR from ATC!!! These guys are a joke. You couldn't script this stuff :D

[3PARA]

Given the uncertainty surrounding their jobs I must admit the local staff in ABZ have done their best to cope in a very difficult & stressful situation.

Whilst not knowing the details of the incident in full I do know that the individual concerned immediately declared himself unfit to fly for the rest of the day as soon as He landed & i defy anyone to keep their mind on the job with all the turmoil at present at FAS Aberdeen. Maybe He should be banished to the frozen North ;)

[FORKINELL]

I'm surprised that the local press havent picked up whats happening & that all the people who are buying gift vouchers at best will have to go to cumbernauld to redeem them or at worst . . . . . . . :*

[bankjoh]

I have to admit that after having such a terrible time with Flight Academy Scotland (FAS) I took a degree of satisfaction from watching what I expect is their last flight from Aberdeen on Saturday (any new attempts at great Escapes excepted).

Flying with the new club has put the fun and social scene back on the chart with aviating in the NE of Scotland rather than the bungling attempts by FAS at running an "academy". There is such a depth of feeling with the new club that I am sure it will prove that a few :mad: from down south can't keep us down!

Following on from what many have said I do however wish the FI's at FAS the very best of luck.:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm not going to get involved in this in anyway, but will simply say that the Katana that bashed it's prop in Prestwick, did not have an FI onboard.

[A.Viator]

The runway incident in ABZ is a poignant example of how stress in the workplace can affect performance. The individual concerned is a professional Flying Instructor and has an otherwise blemish free record. This incident has so many human factor elements that one could easily use it as a light aircraft CRM case study. I think it would be appropriate for us to leave the specifics of this incident out of the discussion as it is a very unfortunate event currently under investigation. The pilot is certainly not solely to blame.

However, it can be argued that the apparently deteriorating financial situation at FAS in Aberdeen is having safety implications. The Civil Aviation Authority as regulator of Registered Training Facilities can withdraw this status from an operator if it can demonstrate safety shortcomings or lack of financial fitness. It would seem that the financial situation is demonstrably poor with aircraft grounded and airport companies withholding basic services due to non payment of invoices. The safety issue would be much more difficult to prove on the basis of two unrelated incidents. The financial position and lack of any training staff should be sufficient for the regulator to carry out a review of this operator now and I would hope any casual observers from the Authority would take up the points in this thread and at least ‘take a look’ at the situation!

More sinister is that fact that FAS are continuing to sell flying lessons in Aberdeen:

http://www.flightacademyscotland.com/purchase_gift_voucher_form2.php?id=A01063360

Although illegal to trade when insolvent it is a very different matter trying to prove it after the event. The case may be that the FAS are not insolvent but just experiencing a temporary cash flow problem! A statement on the FAS website would certainly go a long way to allay the fears of existing customers, if any, and allow new customers to be aware that the company is experiencing difficulties, if this is the case. In the absence of a statement, at the very least FAS should stop selling Gift Vouchers to unsuspecting members of the public who are unaware of the fact that if they buy a voucher or lesson today, the company taking the money have no instructors and no serviceable aircraft in Aberdeen.

Fortunately for the existing FAS customers there is an alternative Flying Club on the field. I am told many of the FAS customers have already moved across to Grampian and the two remaining instructors have been offered instructing work. However, the students will need to convert to Warriors which is an inconvenience and no doubt more expensive!

The question now is what happens if FAS are just experiencing temporary cash flow difficulties. How will the loss of consumer confidence affect FAS’s future viability? What will be the impact of the loss of so many customers who presumably will not return to FAS judging by this thread and others? FAS Inverness has already shut down with reports that Cumbernauld is also suffering .With only 10 weeks of the Aberdeen ‘summer’ left, the question has to be how will FAS recover sufficiently to see the company through the winter months as they have already been experiencing difficulties during the best months of the year? Now is the time to be flying not sitting on the ramp with empty fuel tanks, cannibalised and allegedly impounded aircraft.

In the interests of good customer relations and to maintain a professional business ethic, I implore FAS management to make a formal statement on its financial position, plans for its students and what will happen to prepayments already in hand.


A.V.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

All interesting stuff, some perhaps more suited to the Private Flying forum.

Let's keep this thread for those who are involved in this as instructors, and let's all stick together here! I hope there is a happy outcome for all of you, and your faithful students.

A.Viators post is poignant. How many of us have found that outside stresses have pushed us to the limit and we have just got lucky that it didn't become a safety issue. Sometimes the customers needs for a lesson, or our own need to earn a few more sheckels, can cloud the judgement. I know I have sometimes looked back on a day and thought "I really shouldn't have flown today". Probably worth a thread of its own.

[FORKINELL]

11.00Z 10.07.06 ENDEX

[Say again s l o w l y]

A.Viator,

The CAA have no mandate over RF in regard to financial fitness at all. If they did, then most would be shut down immediately.

[garrygaz]

By all accounts FAS were quite subdued Yesterday after the bungled "Friday night take away" attempt.:= At least there's more room on the apron for Grampian's expansion plans & their already thriving club now that FAS are down to one dry 152 with no-one willing to fly it.Even the newer of the 2 instructors, who hung on as long as they could, is believed to be going back to his previous job.
Just hope everyone gets paid & doesn't have to ask "where's My money?" or resort to litigation although at this stage the signs don't look good :ouch:
Maybe the baseball bats were on tic too & have been reposessed :E
They have tried a classic move devised by two little known financial experts a Hugo D' Abunc an asset recovery expert and a Prof. Ho Din Apei. The move is called a D' Abunc/Din Apei strategy, and is surprisingly common in Aviation. There are of course winners and losers, the losers are Airports, Engineers and Fuel Suppliers. The Winners? Who Else? The Lawyers. ;)

[garrygaz]

Heard about their new web address? flightacademyscotland.gone:)

[Seagull61]

I was hoping on sitting some PPL exams there on a visit I had planned next month....guess thats a no-no now.

Does anyone know if the other club there does PPL exams, or is it more of a social scene then a training establishment....!

Cheers

[3PARA]

Seagull,

Grampian are a fully functioning flying training organisation so You will have no problem sitting Your exams when You come over. They'll be more than happy to see You :ok:

[A.Viator]

I see that FAS have now disabled the online purchase function on the website. Guess it really is all over for them in Aberdeen.

Seagull,

You will enjoy the other club. I am just a visiting pilot but am around quite a bit at the moment. Grampian is really Aberdeen Flying Club with a new name. The CFI is the same guy that Aberdeen Flying Club had for almost 10 years untill last summer, a fantastic instructor Examiner and airline Pilot, and a real people person. I think most of the instructors have been around since the mid late nineties, all airline guys instructing part time for fun. I think there are three examiners including the CFI. I have seen the RT Examiner running courses and met the resident Instrumen Rating Examiner who does PPLs ad IMCs as well I guess, in addition to the CFI. One of the Instructors has just completed his PPL Examiner course too.

I know the social side is run seperately although in the same building, by the commitee, all ex Aberdeen Flying Club with some new talent just joined, BBQ's fly outs and all that good stuff.

I am gonna do a check out in the Saratoga in the next couple of weeks. Just havent managed to get the boss to pay for it yet!!

Here's hoping!!

[FORKINELL]

RN was flown to cumbernauld this afternoon & the office was emptied by 18.30 so I guess no idiot came up with £150,000 to buy it as an going concern :} .

Lets hope the creditors can recover their losses & the gift vouchers are refunded :suspect: .

someone should have told them You can't polish a turd :E

[Cactus99]

Initial impressions are that General Aviation in ABZ is back on track to hopefully a bright and positive future!
:}

Is that without considering the £40 landing/handling fee for a 2 seat SEP light aircraft at ABZ?:eek: :eek:

I would call it the Signature rip off, or rather lets sqeeze out GA by BAA, but thats another issue entirely!!:ugh:

Good to see this new club is making a good go of things up there, long may it continue!

[youngskywalker]

That landing fee is for visiting aircraft and does not include locally based aircraft. It's nothing to do with Signature, that all goes to BAA/NATS. However, I agree that the current landing fee's are high. All good things come with a cost though, great scenery, relativley uncontrolled airspace near by, good social scene and a club building with good facilities and a great viewing area for families and club members. Watch out for the next BBQ, quiz night and pole dancing event...;)

[Richard Taylor]

Did the old Club (pre-FAS!!) get involved in the Granite City Air Rally? (Speaking of BBQs etc )

Will that excellent event ever be brought back or have BAA put paid to it & banished it to memory?

[kui2324]

Looking forward to seeing you show us your skills on the pole YSW :E

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

Well well .... what a privelage .... looks like I was the last flying member of RN with FAS .... coming into ABZ Friday night followed by G-BLHJ ..... ops manager slightly bemused by their unannounced arrival with four on board! .... suddenly it all fits into place!

I take it all FAS "members" have gone over to Grampian? Will be delighted to do the same. Whats involved in the conversion to Warrior / Saragota??

[3PARA]

GAW,

It's very easy to convert onto & I think You'll be very pleasantly surprised at how nice the warrior is to fly.
Why not come in at the weekend & speak to the staff & instructors (You've probably flown with most of them already :O ) & we'll get You on track asap :ok:

[FORKINELL]

Capt Dry Tanks,

Just hope the cheque is made of paper & not rubber :E

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

3Para,

thanks be delited did all my training / flying there ... .feel a numpty for not realising what was going on around me!

[Unusual Attitude]

That landing fee is for visiting aircraft and does not include locally based aircraft. It's nothing to do with Signature, that all goes to BAA/NATS

Interestingly enough I asked for a quote to visit overnight in an aircraft I have a share in thats based elsewhere. Was told I'd have to pay Signature handling fees even though I'm a localy based pilot and have flown out of ABZ for nearly 10 years !!!

Departure charge = £32
Nav fee = £23.60
Handling Fee = £30
Overnight parking = £23.29

Total circa £110 for an overnight stop !!!! At least I'd get a wee spin in the Signature van to the ramp and back for my handling fee if nothing else...

Turns out they dont like noisy planes though and wont let me in with it anyway!

Good luck to the chaps at Grampian anyway and glad to hear its off to a good start! Will look foward to a friendly social scene back at the club once again...

Regards

UA

[Croqueteer]

:8 Ah for the happy evenings of insult exchanging in the old Skean Dhu between Aberdeen Aero and Pegasus!

[Slopey]

So has it changed to Grampian Flying Club now? or is it still up for sale? Just wondering, I need to call them shortly to book a 152 for tomorrow afternoon for a bimble but is there still one there, and who's is it?

I'd just got signed off to hire solo by one of the instructors, I better not have to do another few hours for the same thing, that would be the 3rd time round after my previous instructor left due to disagreements.

Although, I did just (this very minute) get a flyer through the door about their BBQ in August, so maybe it's all peachy :)

[kui2324]

No C152 at Grampian Flying Club for you, just the Warrior and Saratoga. There is still a C172 on the apron but that's one of the local group owned aircraft. Plenty space on the apron for all the aircraft now!?!

If you go to the website on your flyer and sign up it will allow you to book your bimbles online.

BBQ should be lots of fun! Though still waiting for YSW and his pole :E sorry pole dancing ...

kui

[Slopey]

Oh well, always wanted to get onto the warrior I suppose. :)

By the way, I can't get to either grampianflyingclub.com or grampianairways.com - DNS/Can't find it erro - are you associated with them or do you have a contact number for them? Could you PM me with it?

Cheers,
Slopey

[kui2324]

Have sent PM

Both websites seem to be offline - will let them know!

kui

[3PARA]

Grampian websites are online again :ok:

[Unusual Attitude]

What date is the BBQ???

[Slopey]

Errm, I hate to be the bearer of bad news... but they're both still down.

Edit - up again last night - all peachy :)

[kui2324]

Saturday 19th August. :ok:

[theresalwaysone]

Who remembers Peter Forbes and Pegasus Flying Club and the Hantons who started the Aberdeen Aero Club just to get at him.

That was when ABZ was twice as busy with no radar, accidents every other week and tales of sabotage etc.

You dont know your born up there now!

[Slopey]

That makes it £169 an hour...

Don't forget the £18 landing/touch&go fee! I'm amazed anyone wants to learn at Aberdeen, when you get to circuits and hour with 5 landings is going to set you back £259! Thankfully Im passed that now!

I imagine the FAS staff didn't know about the impending pull out at the time, they were quite happy to take £200 off me to get checked out on their 152 a week before it went pear shaped.

I was quite looking forward to hiring it out at £100 ph, now I'll probably have 3-4 hours at £169 before I can hire the Warrior solo, so that's £680. That's the end of my flying for a while :(

[Unusual Attitude]

Slopey.....you might want to think about buying a share in that case....

How does £55 per hr (T/O to Touchdown so add 10 more mins for free!) and £60 per months sound ??

That's what I pay for our C172 based in Abz / Insch....if you fly it out of ABZ you still have to pay the extortionate landing fees but out of Insh in the summer you don't pay anything...We have long range tanks (5.5hrs endurance) and full IFR kit with moving map GPS, dual comms, FM immune ILS etc

I think the other C172 based at ABZ is similar costs and both groups usually have a share available for sale....


Just a thought !!

[K. Soze]

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5784003

Remarks: Formerly owned by Tayside Aviation now operated by Flight Academy Scotland. The aircraft was on a flight from Cumbernauld to Scone (1Aug06) when it lost power and made a forced landing on the hill side. The pilot was able to make his way down hill.

Hope nobody got injured.

[youngskywalker]

Looks in pretty good nick to me...

[London Mil]

Just a flesh wound. Back in the air by the weekend.

[Gavin_Wallace]

Well, after hearing about FAS in Aberdeen I am extremely sorry for the instructor that I knew there. Having dealt with the manager's extreme arrogance and rudeness I refused to fly with them after achieving 43 hours and ready to do my PPL.

I must say though, the quality of training from my two instructors (Darren & Nigel) was first class. It has given me a great grounding for my current training at Flight Training Europe and would recommend both of them as instructors. I was alway treated and greeted well there by Martin in ops and I was given lots of great advice.

I look forward to see how the new school is shaping up when I return in october as it'd be a shame to lose the aviation sense in Aberdeen!

Gavin

[3PARA]

I'm sure Nigel will be more than delighted to teach You on the warrior in October. I'm sure Darren would too but I think He'll be converting to a new type then so won't be around much for instructing.:ok:

[Seagull61]

Does anyone have a number for Grampian Flying Club other then those on the website...have been trying for two days now and no reply despite leaving messages.

PM me if you do.

Thanks

[Richard Taylor]

Maybe just missed it but I haven't heard the Warrior 'OZ flying recently.

Anyone know if the new club are still going.

[Computer says NO!]

Take a look at their prices and that may answer your question Richard!!

Who pays this sort of money to fly a SEP??:= :ugh:

[Slopey]

Maybe just missed it but I haven't heard the Warrior 'OZ flying recently.
Anyone know if the new club are still going.

An email came out on the 13th stating that OZ had suffered door damage while on the ground, presumably by someone putting their full weight on it while entering/exiting the aircraft.

They think it'll be out of circulation for 2 weeks, and will update in a couple of days.

They also state that the club would be taking delivery of it's next aircraft "soon".

S.

[youngskywalker]

Everyone wants cheap flying, but all the clubs in the past have gone as quickly as they came, that instability helps nobody, especially students who have to constantly change schools/aircraft/instructors etc. Aberdeen is an expensive airport and so is the avgas. Interestingly, HJS helicopters at Peterculter (near Aberdeen Airport) charge about £250 for an hour for a single engine piston R22, and they seem to be out the door with students and are a very successful training provider in the UK. It would seem the money is out there, just depends how much people want to learn to fly and whether they look at the bigger picture and not just the hourly cost. Judge first on quality then consider if it is good value...
OZ has been out of action for a short while for repairs, club remains in good shape :)

[Dude~]

Everyone wants cheap flying,

and you can get it if you go to other places! Plenty of places where you can hire a decent 4 seater for £100/hr with free landings:)