BA A320 v TUG at LHR on taxi

[southern duel]

i am surprised this has not been mentioned because it happened over 24 hours ago. i was actually looking forward to the posts !
At 16:45z BA A320 (G-EUUF) had pushed back from stand 139 at LHR into the "K" apron ready for aflight to MUC.

ground engineer showed the pin to the flight Crew from the Starboard side of the aircraft. Aircraft started to taxi and hit the tug that had just disconnected.
It appears the tug driver after pushback could not move the tug.
They tried to get the attention of the flight crew but by then the tug had caused a few pennies worth of damage to No2 Engine.

Couple of questions for you drivers and Ground engineers.

Drivers .... Even after being shown the pin , dont you check left and right to make sure it is safe to taxi and not hit any small obstacles like a towbarless aircraft tug.
Or do you take it as a matter of course that the coast is clear.
Engineers .... should you check that everything is clear of the aircraft before showing pin.
AAIB were on site doing the necessary.

Significant damage to the underneath of No 2 engine. I have pics but cannot attach them for some reason !!

Happy Taxing

[Hand Solo]

Interesting! I could be mistaken but I understood that BA SOPs required the tug and all personnnel to be well clear of the aircraft before giving the flight crew the signal in order to prevent exactly this sort of occurrence. Even with that most people have a good look left and right with a verbal "Clear left/right" as an unofficial SOP call before moving off. On a 320 you'd definitely see a tug in the way of the #2.

[nitro rig driver]

your right-it must be sop for all pilots let alone airlines that the FINAL clear left/right is done.
Also the whole point of the groundsman showing the pin to the crew (and getting ackknowlagement) is that all ground equipment is clear of aircraft,and that includes a huge many tonned tug

[AUTOGLIDE]

Southern Duel, 'Ground Engineer' doesn't get involved with pushbacks at BA anymore, this task is now performed (for years now) by the ground movements people, i.e. the tug crew department.
You don't show the pin until everything is physically clear, that's the whole fundamental point because the flight crew cannot see around the aircraft, the bigger the aircraft the worse the visibility becomes.:ugh:

[Le Pen]

Hi,

Would just like to confirm AUTOGLIDES post that there wouldn't have been an Engineer anywhere near that aircraft on departure. :=

Perhaps there should have been.. :( Just arent enough of us to go round these days!

LP

[ASW20Driver]

In BA the showing of the steering pin to the pilot is also an indication that all ground equipment is clear. Admittedly I would imagine one or other of the pilots should be able to see a tug from a small aircraft like the A320, but you would have no chance of seeing it on the 747.

[cjhants]

its about 15 years since i did the headset on pushbacks. but the procedures were drummed into me and i still remember them clearly (about the only thing i can these days).

when the push was complete:
"push complete-set brakes"- "brakes set."
"we are disconnecting towbar."
when towbar and tug are clear- discinnect steering cut off pin.
"tug and bar clear, pin out, will signal you when i am clear"

simple, but seemed to work

[In trim]

I agree with ASW driver. A visual check by the crew is obviously expected and logical, but we need to acknowledge the restricted view.

Personally whenever I've done headsetting in the past I would remain connected (and make sure flight deck know I'm still connected!) until the ground equipment is clear (or at least clearing) and visible to crew.

[Fargoo]

Le Pen
It is true at BA in the Uk at least that engineers are not present at departures and that the towing crew do a walkround and remove the pins.
Not sure what happens at this particular outstation though.
Fargoo

[Hotel Mode]

Heathrow an outstation??

BA tug drivers are supposed to park in front of the aircraft in a position visible to the pilots until all other personnel are clear and then drive off. They never do.

[Mick Stability]

After the first flight of the day, any transit Heathrow is an outstation until last landing - probably coz some clown thinks its cheaper. It may be of note that the engine is not visible from the flightdeck without physically opening the window and shoving your head out.

I shouldn't worry about apportioning blame and exacting painful and excruciating revenge - it's the only thing the management are good at.

[Le Pen]

Le Pen
It is true at BA in the Uk at least that engineers are not present at departures and that the towing crew do a walkround and remove the pins.
Not sure what happens at this particular outstation though.
Fargoo

Fargoo.... WAKE UP!!!! :}

Twas LHR

LP

[blackbox]

Maybe It is time that BA introduced a Japanese style salute procedure on departure, that should dispel any problems with tug breaking down... :D :ok:

That should go down well with the ground ops guys!

[Joetom]

Just look at some departures, Tug will disconnect from Aircraft and move/stop on one side of the Aircraft aft of the Cockpitt.
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Me thinks Tug should be well fwd of the Aircraft so it's in plane view of the pilots.
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Many people around Aircraft have not seen them Bite, but Bite they do and then everybody is interested for a while, blame the weather or anythink you can, but never blame a total lack of interest or understanding of some people who work with Aircraft.!!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Fargoo]

Fargoo.... WAKE UP!!!!

Twas LHR

LP

Ok,Ok I'm officially the plonker of this thread :ugh:
Got myself mixed up with another thread :\

Fargoo :ok:

[SeldomFixit]

I'll wager the main base being a transit station throughout the day is very much related to application of the MEL and "outstation " limits. :suspect:

[tallseabird]

Showing 'the pin' indicates that the steering has been reconnnected, a final thumbs up declares that the tug (and anything else) has moved clear and it is safe to taxi.
Showing the pin and giving the thumbs up are frequently done together as the time taken for the pin to get from the nosewheel to a position in view of the cockpit allows enough time for the tug to have been removed.

[HZ123]

I have to take issue over the remark about BA management. As always is the case no action will be taken whatsoever save a costly investigation and retraining of the headset / tug driver. If there was a bit more discipline within BA and a few dismissals these things would not happen with such frequencies?

[Hand Solo]

So you think the tug driver should be dismissed then?

[BEagle]

"Thanks, Ground. Disconnect, button up, have a final look around and show me the nose gear pin and intercom plug, then give me a thumbs up when we're safe to go"

Or words to that effect. That's what we used to teach in HM's Vickers FunBus. Presumably we learned that from BOAC?

[cjhants]

BEagle- totally agree. once the cockpit had told me "brakes off, clear to push, nose n/s/e/w," the safety of the aircraft was my responsibility during the push. flight deck cannot see behind, and busy starting up etc. i dont want to sound pompous, but i took that responsibility very seriously, and knew my b*lls would be in the blender if i co*cked up.
if the report of the incident is correct, seems to have been easily prevented by proper SOP.

[pheeel]

but when at the airport the other day and as a uneducated private pilot, i wondered what stops the tug pushing the nosewheel too far around and breaking it...does this "pin" people talk about disconnect the steering, so the nosewheel can be pivoted around 360 degs?

might be better off in the tech forum but thought I'd take a shot here while people are talking about it!

ta
pheeel

[cjhants]

pheel - yes there are torque and axial shear pins on all large aircraft towbars. the torque prevents overstress on a push-pull axis, and the axial on a turn.
edit- did not read post properly: yes the pin on the nosewheel steering stops the flight deck steering the nosewheel when the bar is connected

[spannersatcx]

so the nosewheel can be pivoted around 360 degs None that I know should turn 360 deg, 340 gives a msg if you go past 60 something degrees and it then requires inspection of landing gear.

[ornithopter]

BA SOP's do require the tug drivers to park the tug in view and for the headset man to only show the pin when all is clear. They also require the headset man to say when they are disconnecting. Also, we in the flight deck normally want to see a pin, a man AND a tug before we go.

In reality the tug drivers sometimes do not park in view and they almost never tell you they are disconnecting, you just feel it or see it.

As an aside, we are never "clear to push" but use the phraseology "push approved" to avoid ambiguity of "clearness" of the space behind etc. In reality too many of us say "clear to push". The other problem is lack of readback of conditional clearances from the ground crew. I always insist they read back what I have said as "roger that" is ambiguous. It does upset some of them, but having been the victim of an uncommanded push in the past, I believe it to be important.

[Busbert]

None that I know should turn 360 deg, 340 gives a msg if you go past 60 something degrees and it then requires inspection of landing gear.

Not any more it doesn't.:)

[GotTheTshirt]

Spanner,
I think he may mean the aircraft torque link pin:)

[Denzil]

Industry cost cutting doesn't help. In the good old day's most of the guy's doing the headset would be either Engineers or Technicians, they could help with any pre-departure problems, had years of experience & had knowledge of the hazards involved. Now you are more likely to get a baggage loader more interested in getting home early!!!!!!!

[Swedish Steve]

i wondered what stops the tug pushing the nosewheel too far around and breaking it...does this "pin" people talk about disconnect the steering, so the nosewheel can be pivoted around 360 degs?
pheeel
The steering lock out pin disconnects the hydraulics from the steering. It allows the wheels to be steered by the towbar without the hyd press trying to push it back. I had a little nasty two days ago. Tried to push back a B777 without the lockout pin fitted. Got about 10 ft before the shear pins went on the towbar, and off to look for another towbar (and a pin!)
If you look on the nosegear doors on most aircraft there is a red vertical stripe . This is to indicate to the tug driver how far he can turn the nosewheels, the towbar should not go past the red line. It is very easy to get to it with a simple 90deg turn. If you turn the wheels too far nasty things can happen inside the nosegear.
On an A320 you can turn the nosegear over 90deg each way before you do any damage, but the red stripe is at about 60deg.

[Joetom]

Nose gear have limits, wattever they be.
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Best to use normal limits, or a bit lower is nice.
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Some aircraft that know steering angle will give msg of this fact and maint checks may be required.
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You get tractor drivers and good tractor drivers...:ugh: