Which sector do you want?

[BugSpeed]

Guys and Girls,

It has come to the attnetion of quite a few fairly influential people that certain things are happening with new, low houred, integrated AND modular trained F/O's (probably as a result of the school's attitudes more than individuals).

The biggest bugbear relayed to me was one of F/O's asking a Skipper which sector he would like to fly after having already made a fuel decision and let dispatch know about it. If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly. CAPTAINS GIVE SECTORS AWAY - they don't actually have to let us do any take-offs or landings.

Word of advice: if you have a slightly larger than normal navbag and tend to bring your sunglasses for a nightflight, consider leaving both in the crew room before departure.

Please don't take this the wrong way; its a gypsies warning to all of you, thats all.

BS

[scroggs]

As none of the intended readers of the Wannabes forums yet have a job, what is the point of your post?

Scroggs

Edit: moved to a forum where the experienced pilots may round the edges off your attitude!

[On speed on profile]

If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly Did you ever stop to think that maybe the new F/O is working their a£$e off to stay ahead of the game and the aircraft and they are just prompting the Captain to give them a heads up on what sector they are about to fly so they can start mentally preparing. I bet an F/O has to think about it a lot harder than the Captain and from the tone of your post, I dont think you appreciate that.

As for making a fuel decision without consulting, maybe the captain should make the effort to consult the F/O. Maybe the f/o thought time was of the essence, you were too busy somewhere else and in the best interests of staying on time, and saving the company money, made a call. They are after all aware of performance and alternate requirements and I am sure when the captain saw the truck, a quick conversation should make him/her feel at ease as to what the f/o ordered. You can always change it! Why didnt the captain discuss fuel requirements at the pre flight brief?

If the captain has a problem, they should tell someone in your company but before that, get down off their high horse and go to a CRM refresher. You only get the respect you deserve when you give others the respect they deserve. An f/o is not the Captain, granted, but these issues sound more like the captains problems than an attitude of a f/o.

How many times have you stopped a Captain cocking up?? A bit of respect where respect is due here wouldnt go a miss I think.

[Blighty Pilot]

BS, Public Profile - Types SEP & MEP.

Just exactly how much airline experience have you got then???? :hmm:

For an F/O to turn up to the office early to prepare all of the paperwork and make an "initial" decision of fuel is good preparation in my eyes. Lets face it 10, 15, 30, or 90 tonnes of fuel doesn't exactly go on in 5 minutes. If the F/O at least gets the minimum plog fuel started you can always asked for a top up. This sort of preparation just helps in the turn around process.

As and when you have some Airline Ops experience under your belt I suggest you wind your neck in.

[ROSCO328]

You really don't have a clue do you! Has it ever came across your mind that some aircraft have to be setup in a particular way depending on who is flying it,hence this is the reason most Fo's will ask the question in a polite way may I add "Which or what sectors would you like to do?". If this kind of general question offends you I would probably think about leaving aviation and making it a safer place for us all.

[haughtney1]

Hi,
Bugspeed -what are you, the teacher's pet ?Do you take an apple in each day for your captain ?
And who are these 'influential people'you speak of -your mate down the flying school I would suggest

Fade...dont assume everyone brings an apple to work:p dont judge everyone by your own standards:E

[BugSpeed]

Guys and Girls,

This has obviously touched a raw nerve.

The fact of the matter is that Captains are made Captains nowadays on the grounds that they are generally good eggs as well as being competent commanders.

Yes, the F/O's are consulted on fuel decisions etc (as good CRM dictates). Yes, most F/O's I know make a point of turning up at least 15mins before report to gather their thoughts, paperwork and a coffee. However, I think you have all missed the point of my post.

"Did you ever stop to think that maybe the new F/O is working their a£$e off to stay ahead of the game and the aircraft and they are just prompting the Captain to give them a heads up on what sector they are about to fly so they can start mentally preparing"
Yes, having been there myself. The fact is certain things are deemed to be manners. Also, it is very unlikely that the Capt will get you into that much trouble that you are the one needing to get THEM out (granted this does happen very occasionally). Incidentally, the whole point of this is that the Capt hasn't actually conducted his pre-flight breif yet, OnSpeedOnProfile!

As for winding my neck in, I don't think I need to justify my comments. personal profile updated.

Like I said guys and girls, this is a gypsies warning.

It is up to those of us who are in the fortunate enough position of having a job to support and advise those less fortunate.

Egos on the modern flight deck are not a good thing.

BS

[On speed on profile]

Egos get stood on BS, they dont go very far in this day and age. I think its the Captain's ego that you talk about that needs the re-adjustment. Everything in your first post has a plausible explanation and while there are going to be cocky f/os out there, you cant put everyone in the same category.

Personally, I think that manners, while important, take a back seat to commercial efficiency, that is of course what our companies expect from us. While not forgetting professional courtesy, if the Captain was offended then bid deal, it sounds like it's his problem!

Manners are somthing you use when served your coffee or sandwiches, or given the load sheet. I bet you anything you like that the first officer said something like this:

"Which sectors were you planning on flying today?" to which a reasonable response would be " X,Y & Z or, I dont mind you can choose"

then.....

"I have already ordered xxxxx fuel, it will be here soon, is that suitable?"
to which a reasonable response would be... "Thats fine! or no I think we need more or less, how about xxx"

Professional courtesy and respect should go both ways. BS, you sound like you have been given a very one sided view on this. Any captains out there like to comment.......

[BugSpeed]

OSOP,

Again you have completely missed the point. Its not the Capt's ego I'm on about; indeed I don't think any of the Skippers I have flown with use an oversized navbag. Its the "Sky God" mentality of the newby F/O's that has caused debate.

If thats the way the fuel conversation runs then fine (that is generally the line attitude) however, you still do not ask a skipper whch sectors he wants to fly!

Incidentally,

Manners are somthing you use when served your coffee or sandwiches, or given the load sheet.

If thats your attitude you clearly do not understand professional courtesy.

Professional courtesy and respect should go both ways. BS, you sound like you have been given a very one sided view on this

Its not a case of being given a very one sided view; I have witnessed it first hand in our crew room.

MP, if YOU knew something about commercial aviation you would know that this is a real problem with alot of UK short haul carriers at the moment.

If this is the reaction to a mere observation from somebody trying to give people a bit of advice it is quite worrying.

BS

[Professor Fog]

There is definatley an attitude problem with some new FO's who come from particular training establishments !! I believe some of these schools have part of their training programme dedicated to First Officer skills/teaching. Unfortunately this seems to bread a rather arrogant and pushy natured, wet behind the ears pilot. Some guys who get their first job straight onto a jet think that they are God's gift - well yeah, great well done on working hard and getting that first jet job but that is where the practical learning really starts.


The "I don't need a checklist I have memorised it !! " and fiddling with buttons before asking the skipper his opinion - ie safety related issues like the seat belt sign or just good manners of asking before changing the cockpit heat controls !!!!

This is the combination of qualities that causes the most upset ! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[BugSpeed]

And accidents!

Very valid points Prof Fog!

BS

[coded_messages]

Bugspeed,

You leave me totally confused! :o I am at a loss really as to why you wanted to say what you did initially.

[On speed on profile]

Point taken BS,

Maybe I was a bit blunt. I can see where you are coming from having known the type of individuals you allude to, I understand your intent.

As for the fuel though, surely its company SOP that the Captain CONFIRMS the fuel before it is uploaded or delegates that to the F/O. If it isnt, why isnt it? if it is, then thats a breach of SOPs!

For what its worth, any F/O with a jumped up attitude needs to be brought back down to earth with a BIG bump. The examples you use though could be interperated both ways.

Prof Fogg, Your second paragraph alludes not only to safety but also to professional and personal courtesy and if the f/o did what you alluded to, and ordered fuel and asked the captain what sectors he wanted then that f/o very definately needs an attitude re-alignment!

Is the preflight brief (where fuel and sectors could be reasonably assumed to be brought up) a discussion or a lecture? If it is a lecture, then somthing is seriously wrong (and yes, I know the captain has the overall say! How he/she gets to that final decision is very important in todays Multi Crew environment!)

[Kiltie]

The biggest bugbear relayed to me was one of F/O's asking a Skipper which sector he would like to fly after having already made a fuel decision and let dispatch know about it. If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly. CAPTAINS GIVE SECTORS AWAY - they don't actually have to let us do any take-offs or landings.
BS

BugSpeed seems to have been attacked strongly over this thread. He is making a valid observation although the implied Man and Boy environment is a tad over-generalised.

Fuel uplifts are a team decision, where the Captain has eventual overall authority and may have some experience-based knowledge to offer. A good Captain should ask the FO how much he thinks they should take, this promotes good CRM and encourages FOs to build their decision making character. There may be days where a Captain will decide the fuel uplift due to an unusual weather, operational, cost or delayed environment and ask the FO if he is happy with it. Unconsulted fuel decisions by either Captain or FO are indeed infuriating and undermine both CRM and the command structure. I have been in several situations where an FO has taken it upon himself to order too much or too little fuel some time before official crew report-for-duty time, because he has arrived early. Trying to get an already busy bowser to return to your aircraft can often be met with rebuke from the tanker driver.

Asking a Captain what sectors he would like to do is laughable and just plain rude. Good manners would dictate an approach such as "Do you mind if I do the third sector as I could do with some crosswind practice?" Captains do indeed have the overall say in allocating sectors but also have an obligation in the interests of good CRM to qualify why they have allocated them in the order as such.

I would consider a Captain to be grossly immature if he decided to "punish" an FO for unconsulted fuel / sector rudeness by not issuing any PF sectors at all. There are ways to deal with such irritations which have a positive learning experience outcome for the FO.

For those FOs without command experience who have shouted down BugSpeed over this thread, don't try to run before you can walk, act on the line with good manner and your deserved command will come in good time.

[fade to grey]

Good grief,
what a bizarre thread,we obviously have too much time on out hands,
Bit more right rudder --spot on,very funny:D
Naughty haughtney --You know I only ever bring mangos,

Now bugspeed, I don't know what outfit you fly for (I would suspect the orange lot or O'Leary.com) but I have never encountered this level of arrogance in any of my colleagues you speak of:I can't remember the last time any captain didn't offer me a choice,because they are really not bothered.

As for fuel decisions most operators say the PF (FO or Capt) works out the fuel they would like and then as an FO offer it as a suggestion to the capt,as you get more experience you will find this is mostly a waste of time as you may suggest 500kilos more than plog when the capt was thinking of 300,or he may never go with less than a ton extra.the only time I have made this decision fully is when the capt is stuck on the M25 !

having updated your profile to, presumably, incorporate your new found commercial job I would suggest you do not presume to offer advice yet,

and please don't use the term 'good eggs',you make yourself sound like you are pushing retirement !

[145qrh]

Always loved it when F/o's asked me which sectors I wanted..."Thanks I'll have all of them" ..Guaranteed to shut the SKygod in the RHS......Luckily only ever happened a few times, and never from the same chap twice...

[haughtney1]

Naughty haughtney --You know I only ever bring mangos

And here I was thinking you were a melon man...:E

Bugspeed buddy, I would respectfully suggest you keep your "helpful" suggestions under your hat for a while.

As a further contribution to others on here, where Im working the PF decides what they would like..then discusses it with the PNF, and hey presto! a magic number is arrived at :ok:

Personally though....and fade would probably agree (allegations of salad dodging aside)...Im far more interested in who gets first choice of the crew meal, although Ive been led to believe that our cabin crew have been holding out on us..and eating all the chocolate hobb-knobs.

As for the choice of sector......I offer the services of my trusty lucky double headed coin:ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It's just as I thought.
Discipline in cockpits is certainly a fading art. The consequences will be catastrophic.
We must get back to the environment where the First Officer is either a Pilot Officer, or a Flying Officer if he is sufficiently senior, and the Captain is a Flight Lieutenant. 'Rank is rank, old boy', as Michael Caine might have said when he wasn't worrying about the doors.
It is quite ridiculous to imagine that any newly commissioned junior officer can know anything about aviaiton anyway!:p

[captjns]

I’m usually at operations before the F/O… it’s just been a normal routine of mine over the years. I find it a relaxing way to prepare for the day’s duty. The paperwork is complete by the time the F/O reports. I give a full brief as to loads, weights, and fuel, including tankering if required. I give a detailed discussion as to why I elected the amount of fuel to be put on the jet and make sure the other guy is OK with my decision. I also stress to the F/O, never to be intimidated into taking minimum amounts of fuel that he would be uncomfortable while taking into consideration of weather, traffic delays, anticipated holding, etc.

Another imoprtant point is to include the F/O in the crew brief with the F/A's. This helps forster the team concept which is aides in the success of the day's operation.

As far who flies the jet, and what sectors… let the F/O fly as many legs has they want, provided no special airports or crappy weather is involved. There are some airports out there where the approach or departure procedure can be a good confidence builder for a new F/O.

But as always, you need to be on the prowl for those newbies that are legends in their own minds, and are probably more impressed with their abilities than you will be. They are pretty easy to deal with to. But that is for another thread.

[StudentInDebt]

Having heard exactly the same story as Bugspeed related I can only assume we work for the same progressive, forward thinking outfit, where new pilots are also admonished for "fraternising with cabin crew" whilst under training.

The days of the chameleon First Officer are not over yet...

[devokeuk]

I remember my first day on line as a new F/O, I got to the crew room about 50 mins before report, just so I could get settled. I didn't realise that there was ethics involved with "what sectors do you want to do?"

So I made the mistake of asking. The Captain laughed at me and then walked out of the crew room without any reply. At the time I was thinking "what have I done wrong?" All I wanted to establish at the time, was, how I was going to set up the flightdeck once onboard?

Nobody told me that you had to wait for the Captain to ask. I learnt my lesson that day. Ofcourse ,as you settle into the job, it becomes less of an issue and now it doesn't matter. In most cases when I am asked, I reply "I don't mind, what do you want to do?" No drama.

I have always respected the Captains authority but I hope when I am upgraded that I won't take offence if a new F/O asks me the same question on their first day.

Blue skies.

[Kiltie]

devokeuk

Devokeuk the only lesson you should learn from this is do not take this Captain's childish behaviour as an example of how to act when you become a Captain. Nobody has to wait for the Captain to ask, it is a valid part of the crew room brief.

However, in many situations it does matter who does what sector. There may be issues with a FO's experience level when it comes to slippery runways, crosswind limits etc. Some airlines issue internal category cards to impose limitations on an individual dependant on his or her skill and experience. Similarly, there may be LVP restrictions imposed on who may be PF.

Continue to raise the question during the brief; so long as it worded as polite and not disrespectful, it is proper and conscientious.

[devokeuk]

Hi Kiltie,

Yea, you are right regarding F/O's limitations etc. When I said "it doesn't matter" I meant that, it is now not an issue now, because setting up the flightdeck only takes a fraction of the time that it did when I started. Therefore, no worries either way about who is flying the first sector.

Like most companies we have limitations on F/O's with less than 500 hours on type, but after that (well in our company anyway) only the A/C limitations and Cat 2/3 dictate that the Commander has to fly the sector. Oh yea, and also,the Commander has to have belief in his own abilities (should he need to take control and recover a botched approach for example) to allow the F/O to fly a sector in conditions that may be less than favourable.

I like to think that I learn from the various Captains that I fly with. I am a humble kind of guy and look forward to the future.

Blue skies.

[Dani]

I might add a few thoughts:

1. I don't think that this is a useless thread. CRM is one of the most important things in aviation nowadays. People who say these "useless discussions" should be cancelled are mostly those who have no clue or - worse - don't care about.

2. There are always FOs who try to take the leadership as there are FOs that are very held back or defensive. Both types are as dangerous. As are "hero" captains and those without leadership. It's always the right balance. And we have to ask ourselves everyday: How have I done today, was my team performance good today, was it tending to the one or the other side?

3. I'm flying in an Asian airline, but I know the "Christian aviation" too, especially the English one. I think not only leading FOs are a problem, but also those who do not show ANY initiative (ok, sometimes because they have been treated by some captains...). I have to admit I hate it much more when a FO doesn't show any signs of thoughts at all than if he has a clear thought about how to proceed. Because the initiative FO knows what to do if all fails. He might be my life safer - and the one of the passengers.

So I rater like an FO who asks my about sectors and fuel than someone who says "I don't mind" all the time. And the Dont-Minders are still a majority today. When I ask "Which sector you want to fly", and I get the answer "I don't mind" I say: "We don't fly to a destination with this name" or "it's the FOs duty to chose from".

Dani

[sjm]

From a new jet Fos point of view, having line checked only two months ago, this is amazing reading.

I only ask the capt which legs he wants to fly, when he hasnt mentioned it by the time we are setting up for departure. As someone pointed out earlier certain A/c require the FDs to go on in order of is flying( PF first).

As for Capts giving you sectors for being a good boy, thats complete and utter bollocks!! I have several friends all long serving Capts none of which have ever taken this attitude.

In my company they employ two crews per A/c not one pilot and one skivvy, policy is to divde the sectors equally, wx allowing!
Out of common courtesy, I would say, at a critical point "which sectors would you like to fly today?" to which the reply is often along the lines of the following " I'll take first and last if you dont mind" or " Dont mind you choose". I however would give the capt ample chance to bring the subject up first.

If this kind of attitude is on the flight deck still today, then it is very sad that these GOD like Capts learn nothing from CRM courses.
As much as the guy in the left hand seat has earned his command his unable to fly the bloody thing safely on his own, Come on Guys!! people have died because of this attitude:uhoh: It has no place in the cockpit in todays world.

Ill use manners when theres is time, and when not i'll be top the point. Can you imagine having to say "please can i turn on the anti-ice oh great one" Whilst hes on the radio busy with other things.

Teamwork is the key and a Capt with some of the above attitudes is as dangerous as a know all fresh FO.

[beamer]

Yes. I know Scroggs, this is for the wannabees but just an indication of what life is like for them in the future should they join the Company I am employed by, which for interest is Uk based utilising 30 aircraft on short,medium and longhaul operations.

First and foremost sectors are split 50/50 between Captain and First Officer. We have a simple protocol (unwritten) in which 95% of the time the skipper will give his colleague the option of which sector to fly as P1. On a given day there may be reasons, operational or personal where the Captain makes the choice which is his perogative. Personally I don't seek to protect first officers from poor weather, strong crosswinds, difficult approaches etc because they need to be able to gather experience of their own - there are of course limits but whenever possible it remains their choice.

If a pilot, regardless of which seat he occupies, wants to turn up fifteen minutes early - fine, there may be trivia to deal with, time for a bit of banter with cabin crew or indeed just an opportunity to prepare at leisure - however, do remember that you may be compromising crew duty limitations - ie rest - if you turn up ridiculously early on minimum rest between duties. By all means start the paperwork - work out a possible fuel figure based upon best information - the engineers, refuellers may already be seeking a start figure - however final decision will be made between both pilots.

However, back to the crux of the original post - it may seem old fashioned to the youngbloods but asking the Captain 'which sector/s do you want to do' may well induce an adverse reaction ranging from polite amusement to downright contempt. My advice would be to let the Captain make the offer - that way you will not run the risk of 'upset' and probably get the choice in any event - it all makes for an easier life.

It would be interesting to learn where this supposed breed of 'over-confident' newcomers actually comes from - a very rare trait in my Company - but views from elsewhere would be interesting.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

Gentlemen(Ladies),I think we are missing the most important question here.
What airline does Haughtney work for that supplies chocolate hob-nobs?
Any vacancies?:p

[fade to grey]

Hi,
Haughtney gets chocolate hob nobs......I can see that must have been the deal clincher when he left us !
he works for.......
As for salad dodging - 85kgs LMC for a pilot.....and then some in my case.
dani...you must be great value to work with,'which sector do you want ?' FO-,'don't mind',dani-'we don't fly there'

I bet it takes half an hour duty time for your FOs to stitch their sides back up.

Beamer -are you LHS 757 BHX-?I think I may have had the pleasure of working with you .

to sum this all up it is a question of phrasing more than any of the other theological clap trap written here.

if the capt doesn't voice an opinion on which sector(s) he wants I merely say ,'which way are you driving ?' non confrontational,non presumptious simple as that.

[beamer]

Fade to Grey

Could'nt possibly comment on your speculation - actually I do get let out on the 767 occasionally for good behaviour..........COME ON YOU SAINTS !!!!!!!!

[fade to grey]

Aha...
All becomes clear now.....
wrong guess I thought 'beamer' related to the car collection - obviously not the knackered volvo (if memory serves me right !)
hope the guys are well at BHX !
And indeed...up the saints !:D

[Pilot Pete]

It should all be part of a learning process in my opinion. As a captain I would like to think that if confronted by an overly keen F/O, then I would perhaps have a quiet word nice and early in the process to offer an alternative way of doing something that might be better received by my captain colleagues.;)

However, I don't think the captain has to have an 'open forum' about every single thing that he decides to do. When it comes to fuel I like to take the line that the PF decides on how much fuel he wants for his sector. Only if the F/Os decision making regarding fuel is at complete odds with mine, or he has obviously not accounted for something will I ask for his 'reasoning' behind his fuel decision (if he hasn't offered it), or point out the thing that I feel warrants more or less fuel than his plan. I am open to suggestion and comment about my fuel decision and seek this by explaining what fuel I have decided on and asking if the F/O is happy with that.

What I find as a slight problem is the way in which some of the less experienced F/Os don't use a logical process for their fuel decisions and try to just guess at a figure that will get the captain to agree! It's all part of the learning process to becoming a captain, so when given the opportunity to decide on fuel for a sector some thought should go into it, justifying the amount you want to take based on all the various factors from engine start to shutdown that might affect your decision.

How about;

Start and taxi out considerations, ramp congestion, time of day, delays at the holding points, etc etc. Is the standard taxi fuel adequate?

T/O climb and SID routeing. Will it be a 'standard' profile? Will you follow the SID, get an extended radar vector? Be held down for a while so you don't get continuous climb? What does your Operation Flight Plan allow for this phase? Ours uses the shortest SID route. Are you going to fly that SID or is the runway in use going to mean an extended routeing? Will you need to avoid any weather?

Climb phase. Again, is it possible that you could not get continuous climb due to airspace or traffic restrictions? Will you need to avoid any weather?

Cruise. Will you get your requested level? What is the likelyhood of being held lower for a while? How much extra might you burn if held lower? Will you get any direct routings that may save you time and fuel? Are the wind predictions on the OFP likely to be accurate? (Be careful with a very strong abeam wind giving a hefty tail component; it doesn't take much of a change in wind direction for a strong abeam wind to all of a sudden have a strong headwind component.) Will you need to avoid any weather?

Descent. What routeing are you likely to get compared to your OFP? Will you fly a full STAR, or get much shorter radar vectors? Or maybe you will get extended radar vectors!? Will any holding be likely, if so how long? How busy is that airport at that time of day? Will the weather affect the approach rate (like LHR). Are you likely not to achieve the ideal idle descent profile and end up flying level low down? Will you need to avoid any weather? Will the Engine Anti-Ice be on for any significant time? And Wing Anti-Ice?

Go-Around. Likely? How much fuel do you want to have in the tanks when you press the TOGA buttons? CMR? Perhaps a little more so that you can have another crack at destination before diverting?

Alternate Fuel. Are you going to divert to the alternate shown on your OFP or do you want to have enough fuel to make alternate number 2 perhaps for wx or operational reasons? Or even alternate 3 or somewhere else!?

Contingency. What amount do you need to meet JAR-OPS requirements? If you adjust the amount of ramp fuel you have, then you should adjudt the burn and possibly may need to adjust the contingency to make sure you are still legal. Can you reduce contingency with use of an ERA and save a little. Do you know the aircraft well, is the planned burn very accurate? Perhaps you know conditions are in your favour and the burn accurate enough for you to consider reducing contingency.

Tankering. Is it economical to tanker? What are the tanker limits regarding icing on the upper wings? Will MLW become an issue? How heavy do you want to be landing at the destination (limiting runway?). Is round-trip fuel an option? If so, have you allowed for any burn on the ground at the other end like APU, or extended taxi?

Final Reserve. Keep it legal!

Extra Fuel. A realistic amount based on all the factors above and the 'likelyhood' of needing extra. Don't put a couple of hundred kilos extra on for each and every factor that 'might' happen, but if it is 'likely' then allow for it. Justify any additional fuel taking into account the areas where you might save a little fuel (like our OFP uses the longest STAR, whereas in reality it is very rare for us to fly a full STAR at places like Manchester). If you give it a little thought and run through your 'plan', justifying any extra or less fuel you can be happy that you are using a structured approach which should be met more favourably. This doesn't account for the captain who always takes an extra tonne becasue he likes to feel comfy, but you just have to live with that and log it away for your future reference when you become a captain. You CAN change the culture over time.

PP

[Check Airman]

Gents,

I’m not an airline pilot, but I fail to see what’s wrong with a FO asking the capt which sectors he wants. It’s not like he’s saying “I’d prefer sectors a, c and e, what do u want?” He’s simply asking for the captains preference….what’s so taboo about that? I'd appreciate if someone took the time to explain, lest I make the same mistake.

[Pilot Pete]

Check

It is difficult for this subject to be expressed in type as opposed to in conversation. I think the point that most people are trying to make is that there is nothing wrong with an F/O enquiring as to which sector is he flying if it hasn't been mentioned, but it is not really good etiquette to ask the captain which sector he would like. Maybe it's old fashioned and I am not trying to sound like an old Atlantic Barron, but I suppose it might be something like walking into your bosses office and seeing a list of jobs that he has to allocate out and then asking him to decide which one he wants to do, or worse than that telling him which one you are doing and not allowing him to manage as he sees fit. Not the best example, but something akin to that.

It's really no big deal and if the captain is pre-occupied with something else and you reach the aircraft not knowing if you are PF or PNF, then it is completely appropriate to ask, I guess it is more how you ask that can either compliment the CRM or cause some conflict. How about 'John, are you flying this sector?' or 'shall I do the walk round?' which would be much better than, 'Well John, best you do the walk round on this sector and I will do it on your sector home!' But even then the last way could be fine with a captain whom you know well and doesn't mind a good bit of banter with you! It's all in the CRM..........

PP

[missioncontrol]

Interesting post!

It's not what you say it's the way that you say it.

Captains are fully aware that the F/O will "need to know" what sector he/she is flying so that they can engage their mind into the duties/checks/setup they have to perform. The difference is that the Captain has to assess all of the sectors and decide if it is appropriate for the F/O to handle the aircraft bearing in mind their experience level and the weather conditions fog,strong crosswinds etc.The captain will usually inform the F/O what sector they will give away at an appropriate time-usually sufficient.

On the subject of keen newly qualified FO's I would add the following observation:

These days CRM and assertiveness are promoted (quite rightly) throughout flight training and induction into an airline; to question the Captains decision making if it appears they are making a mistake or doing something incorrectly.

If you see something which is wrong , please be absolutely sure of your facts before piping up , especially if your doubts arise at a critical phase of flight.

[Gary Lager]

If you see something which is wrong , please be absolutely sure of your facts before piping up , especially if your doubts arise at a critical phase of flight.
I would absolutely encourage my crews to completely ignore the above comment!

If you have to ask a question about my standard of operation or if you disagree with a course of action, either one of two things has happened:
a) I am doing something wrong, in which case it is your responsibility to 'pipe up', especially at a critical phase of flight (although more warning is appreciated) - fault: mine
b) I am doing something right but which you haven't understood, either because it is non-standard and I haven't briefed you (fault: mine) or because I assumed a certain level of knowledge on your part but didn't take time to check (fault: mine).At no time would I like FOs to default to 'stay silent' just because they are not certain of the facts - don't we often say:

"if there's any doubt, there's no doubt!" not, "if you're absolutely sure that you're right then there's no doubt".

Piping up in such situations is critical, and must be encouraged.

With the rest of what you say, mc, I agree.

People asking me which sectors I would like does really p*** me off, but I usually bite my tongue, since to comment could adversely affect the chances of that otherwise assertive FO saving our collective bacon at some point. I just usually respond by taking the 'fun' sectors or the two longest ones, hopefully they'll catch on eventually. :E

Petes comments about fuel decision-making are excellent, I try to live my operational life by such a bible.

"it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice" ;)

[DB6]

Hmmm, maybe a smidge of over-reaction in some quarters :hmm: .
Simple answer, turn it round; F/O to Captain: What sectors would you like me to fly? Perceived authority gradient maintained etc. etc. if that is important. Unconsulted fuel decisions probably a bit pushy but not the end of the world.

PS Q: What's the key to CRM? A: Don't be a **** ;) .

[BOAC]

I can well recall (from a former airline in a galaxy far away) a known 'grumpy' Captain, with me for 5 days, on his last 'tour' before retirement. As we marched out to the aircraft - with no 'defined' P1, fuel decided with no consultation - I said "I'm more than happy to do 5 days P2 if you would like all the flying". I thought this was a pretty friendly gesture (and subtle hint?) - to which he replied "How dare you presume I was going to give you any sectors". That airline 'SOP' was 'leg and leg'.

OK, he HAD flown with me before:)

At that point I pointed out to him that I was a little too old for that sort of treatment and we came to an 'understanding'. Hopefully the days of old Captains like him (prone to 'away days' too, as other F/O's called it:eek:) have long since gone. I think GL sums it up nicely "it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice"

[Check Airman]

Since it all seems to boil down to etiquette, are there any other such etiquette pints that they don't teach in training? Just to make sure i make a good impression when I start.

Thanks

[Lucky Strike]

I can well recall (from a former airline in a galaxy far away) a known 'grumpy' Captain, with me for 5 days, on his last 'tour' before retirement.
But BOAC; you were the junior crew member, YOU were with HIM

[BOAC]

...er yes, but I can assure you that on one of the 'away days' he was not with anyone:)

[Pilot Pete]

That made me laugh!:E
PP

[OverFlare]

I guess one thing that should come across to FOs on this thread is that you just can't please everyone. Some captains like you to be proactive, some like you to sit back, shut up and occasionally read a checklist. The best advice really is to be professional, polite and act (and fly) as you are trained to. This can sometimes mean getting up the noses of Captains who'd rather not have your input and, sadly, that just comes with the job of being an FO.

Please don't be bullied into submission by a Captain who would rather laugh at you for not knowing as much as he or she does than actually teach you something. Said Captain is not behaving professionally and the best stance to take - in my experience - is a sort of benign indulgence as if they are a spoilt child or mental patient. Works a treat for me.

[ROSCO328]

Perfectly said and couldn't agree more!!:D

[beamer]

I suppose one could turn the argument on its head and suggest that Captains ignore arrogant little upstarts with damn all experience who swan around with hands in their pockets, sunglasses on their heads and who believe they have a god given right to equal treatment because Daddy has paid for their integrated course.

Of course one would not say that because it would'nt be true unless of course you know better..................................................

[BugSpeed]

Beamer,

because Daddy has paid for their modular course

More likely to be an "Integrated" course if daddy's paid for it:)

Overflare - The genre of Skipper you refer to have long since fallen by the wayside; certainly in my outfit anyway (and most of my mates outfits to be honest)

BS

[MrHorgy]

Check -

Seconded, I don't imagine they teach you things like this, i'd be interested as well.

Horgy

[BugSpeed]

Mr H and Check,

Pilot Pete's post pretty much says all you need to know.

BS

[Check Airman]

thx for that

[haughtney1]

As for salad dodging - 85kgs LMC for a pilot.....and then some in my case

Thanks to the choccy hob-nobs....I can confirm I ALSO rumble into the above category:E

I guess most of the posts on here touch on the main fundamentals of this issue, and of course the CRM aspects as well. I for one wouldn't like to assume anything because on any given day the guy in the seat next to you might be grumpy/sad/away with the fairy's (no not the ones in the galley:ooh: ) etc etc.
Far better to ask a question in a polite fashion, with all the following good CRM and cross-checking, than end up being the star witness at the subsequent board of enquiry..or having to share the company hob-nobs with the fleet manager.

And yes where I work they are advertising for more biccy eaters:ok:

[rhovsquared]

I usually don't post in this forun as I am not an airline pilot,
but this is seemingly a matter of semantics. I can see how that particular order of words may offend a few.

So, since control over others reaction cannot be had, perhaps you should use some of the wording offered by your collegues on this site.
which sectors do I have? I like to prepare for the sectors i'm flying.

something like that, you then have the chance to be the mature one.

[low n' slow]

I'm getting really mixed signals here.
Being a fresh FO with next to no hours in the book, 15 hours on type and really keen, I've got no clue to unwritten do's and don'ts.

Some of you say that as a FO you should just sit in the RHS and shut up, as beamer so nicely put "arrogant little upstarts with damn all experience who swan around with hands in their pockets". How an earth do you think this makes a new FO feel that might be a bit insecure as he has just taken perhaps the biggest step in his professional life?! I've got no idea, perhaps I come across as an ignorrant little upstart if I for some reason have my sunglasses on my head and ask out of interest, what the captain is doing? I try not to act an "ignorrant upstart" but who am I to say how people percieve me? What's more frightening is how fast someone can judge another person. What does the captain know about me and what I'm capable of just because of perhaps a bad first impression? This attitude is what scares me the most about my new job. I cincerely hope I'll never have to fly with someone displaying this horrible attitude.

On the other hand, some say that we should be proactive and work ahead.
If this annoys a captain, having a keen young chap that sees to it that stuff gets done and away with, Who's doing it wrong? I'll just stop there...

It's a difficult topic this. Thank god I've only had good line training captains so far that follow the policy of splitting sectors 50/50 whenever possible and that don't take offence when I query them as to why they are doing what they are doing. I'll keep on like that methinks.

EDIT: about how to ask which sectors you are to fly, the suggested: "which sectors do you want me to fly" is just as bad as "which sector do you want to fly", if thing are as you say. This implies that the captain has ACTUALLY thought of giving you a couple of sectors or so.

/LnS

[rhovsquared]

low n' slow, I wouldn't worry completely what other think, you yourself cant be too judgemental, keep on the task at hand- first fly/ operate/handle the aircraft, use a respectful and professional tone,

I understand there's a little salt behind my advise, and an captain has earned his station - it doesn't hurt to be polite- and deferential, the way you speak to your elders :}

but, most "real" captains would probably want you to speak up if somethings a little off... cap'n it's the 030 radial, or a lot off, uhm L and C hyd have failed!!! :\ But, even if they do mind speak up... because the captain always goes down with ship ... along with FO Cabin crew possible a few hundred people all the poor puppies in the puppy snuffer area.... remember balance and perspective... I didn't make that up... now get on with, as you guys say :)

rhov

[Pilot Pete]

Thank god I've only had good line training captains so far that follow the policy of splitting sectors 50/50 whenever possible

In your first job on a new type I would have thought that you should be flying more sectors than 50%!;)

PP

[fade to grey]

Low n slow,
don't take it personally,beamer is actually a good bloke who I have flown with on several occasions (just get him talking on rugby !)...and congratulations on your first job i bet you have lived up to your user name a few times by now:cool:

As an FO you sometimes have to be a bit of a chameleon,trying to find common ground to talk about (outside of actually operating the aircraft),
there is nothing wrong with exercising a little iniative,however most suggestions at the planning stage are better made as 'suggestions',
in the aircraft it is different as,clearly,with matters of safety you must be up front and more forceful..

[beamer]

Fade to Grey - thanks old chap for those sentiments - can't wait till those pre-season friendlies in August.

Obviously a certain degree of irony and self-deprecation has gone over the heads of some of the youngsters - don't take yourselves so seriously, there are enough bloody ego's in this industry already ! Fact is that the vast majority of new troops are just fine, they are eager to learn and are a credit to their training - there are however a few.............need I say more ? My trips are ALWAYS split 50/50 with choice 95% of the time offered to the F/O - arrangement works just fine

[low n' slow]

Cheers guys!

"..and congratulations on your first job i bet you have lived up to your user name a few times by now"

Yeah, and I still do, seldomly reach above FL160 and faster than 250 (and then only in the descent)... I guess that's still low n' slow to most of you guys... :rolleyes:

That chameleon buisness is something that not only applies to commercial flight deck work, but also during training. Some instructors will allways want to have things done this or that way. I guess the same applies in the company FD. After having read this thread, I asked one of my captains about this. He laughed and said that this mentality was part of the neanderthal era and I have to agree (otherwise I might be an arrogant little upstart, i'm learning :D ...), there simply has to be an open forum in which questions can be brought to light without it becoming a problem in itself.

/LnS

[The Real Slim Shady]

I love it when the F/O makes the decisions: it gives me an instant picture of what the individual is like.

If I don't agree I can always change things......doesnt happen often...cant remember the last time.

Just be careful how you phrase things......a word awry,or omitted, can often cause confusion.

[Mr R Sole]

Some of the attitudes displayed here date back to the time when CRM wasn't taught. As a F/O you are trained to actually fly the aircraft as well as fill in the flight report and all the other bits of the rain forest that you accumulate during a days flying. The attitude of 'it is the Captains right to give sectors away' is antiquated and dates back to when being an F/O was when you were simply a flap and a pen operator and nothing much more than that. Such an attitude is counter productive to the team working ethos on the flight deck since a very steep left to right gradient will form and the F/O will undoubtedly feel undermined! I feel sorry for any F/O who falls foul of such an attitude if he asks a simple question before he leaves the crew room

Some of the situations described here are more akin to an air taxi operator where on an empty sector; a pilot's assistant may be offered to fly the sector. However the true colours of some skippers are obviously showing that they obviously regard their right seat colleague as simply an admin assistant and not a qualified pilot!

If the weather or the approach is demanding then in some cases it would be foolish for a F/O to fly that sector so it makes sense for the Capt to operate that one but when conditions permit the F/O to operate then I still can't see the problem when the F/O asks what sectors the Capt wants to do!

No doubt my comments will seem harsh to some but we are in the 21st century and attitudes should reflect this without undermining the total authority of the commander.

[fireflybob]

It does, as they say, take two to "tango" but the granting of any aircraft handling by the Captain is a privilege and not a right!

That said, notwithstanding different airline policies, a good Captain will grant handling to the F/O so that the latter can keep in flying practice and also be coached for the job of Captain.

However it is my view that the F/O must be able to do the non-flying role satisfactorily before being able to conduct a sector him/herself.

If I am flying with a new F/O (especially with low hours), I want to assess his capability BEFORE allowing him/her to fly a sector. This means that I am not going to decide when and if he/she will fly a sector until the time is right!

If you want to upset your Captain from the word "go" then ask him early on which sector you are going to fly! This question presumes that you will be allowed any handling at all. Remember the Captain has overall responsibility for the flight and he/she will have safety as a prime consideration.

Regarding fuel, well it's fine for the F/O to get in early and think about what he/she would take but it is NOT his/her decision.

As a training captain years ago I checked in for a flight to Madeira (Cat C airport, short runway, then) and the bright eyed bushy tailed F/O (ex Harriers) had discovered we could tanker fuel and had calculated the fuel to land at Max Landing Weight - he had not given the performance considerations any real thought. I bit my tongue and quietly acquainted him with the facts! If I had gone in with "guns blazing" it would have set the wrong tone from the start of the working day and dampened his enthusiasm for the job.

However, I do think these types of issue point to lack of comprehensive line training.

[Pilot Pete]

However, I do think these types of issue point to lack of comprehensive line training.

That's a very interesting statement and one which I see quite regularly. A month or two back I took the unprecedented step of emailing the Chief Training Captain to point out the inabilities of the S/O I flew with to do virtually ANY of the paperwork. He'd had boxes ticked (and don't get me wrong, a very good bloke who will go on to be VERY good), but somehow he had got through line training without being able to successfully complete the PNF duties........It appears that there had been an oversight, which was quickly rectified.

PP

[Centaurus]

Surely the solution is for the F/O to ask the captain which leg will he (the F/O) be in command of the aircraft? I can just imagine the response from the captain and old O.P. Jones would turn in his grave..

[BANANASBANANAS]

At the risk of going slightly off at a tangent and in an attempt to describe an FO attitude that is guaranteed to get right up a captains nostrils I am reminded of a flight I did a few years ago with an F/O who was nowhere near as good as he thought he was.

His opening conversational gambit was "I was educating a captain the other day when......"

He brown nosed his way onto a jet command course which he then spectacularly failed.

Its all about mutual respect and treating each other as you would wish to be treated yourself.

BUT: Please remember, at the end of the day if the brown smelly stuff hits the rotating aerofoil its the captains ass that will be in a sling.:ok:

[BugSpeed]

Chaps and Chapesses,

I get the distinct impression this is now "lets have a go at the F/O's" thread.

Not quite how I intended it when I wrote the first post.

There is lots of very sensible advice on here for those guys who have just picked up the golden first job.

The words that keep cropping up are "mutual respect".

To those Skippers out there dealing with the current FTO's product (and I say this as a relatively junior F/O although have long since dried behind my ears), remember they are teaching them to query (which is good) but not how to do it, or for that matter the practicality that "SOP Guidance" not ridgidity is generally how most situations present themselves on the line.

To those F/O's who have just got their first posting, take from this thread the valuable points and not the venom. Everybody knows how hard it is starting out and most blokes I flew with in "the formative hours" were very understanding - as long as I was showing them mutual respect and a willingness to listen to their experience (some of the ramblings have since helped out immensely!).

Hopefully this has tamped things a little!

BS

[BeforeStart]

I think that BugSpeed has an interesting point about FTO´s teaching F/O´s to query if they think something is not right - but not how to do it.

I have flown with inexperienced F/O´s who challenge almost everything you do, such as for instance in the crew room: "You know, you used the wrong procedure to find the A/C parking position on the screen - it is much easier to use my way" or what about this one heard on a short sector after me telling the F/O that I was gonna brief the aproach first and then he could obtain the weather afterwards: "You can´t do that! You have to obtain weather first!".

Or what about: Him: "Have you ever done a cross-bleed start before?" Me: "Yes." Him: "Don´t worry it is not that difficult. I´ve done it myself lot´s of times. Okay, I´m just gonna read the procedure to make sure that you understand what you´re actions will be. Do you know the pressure has to be 30 PSI?" Me: "Yes." Him:"Are you aware that you have to start engine no.1 first?". Me:"Yes." Him:"Don´t forget to alert the groundcrew when increasing power". Me:"Okay, I think we´ve established that you know how to do it - and since I handed you the procedure to read you should assume that I have read it, maybe even that I have done it before?"

These examples are maybe a bit extreme and fortunately not representative for the vast majority of new cadets. However I more and more often come across situations where I politely have to tell the F/O that I apreciate his input but that my suggested solution to the particular problem is what we´re gonna go with.

In order to assure good CRM and SOP adherence I do make an effort to explain most of my decisions. When I was an F/O myself, not that long ago, I apreciated this and if I disagreed with, say, the captain taking a 2 tons extra fuel because the ceiling was down to 1000´ I wouldn´t necessarily raise the issue. Simply because as long as it´s safe and within the boundaries of the SOP´s it is the captain who has the ultimate responsibility and therefore not worth questioning.

I guess my point is that if an F/O thinks something is not right safety wise, speak up, even if he´s not sure he´s right. If it´s a matter of the captain saying a particular callout slightly different - let it rest. If it´s a matter of the F/O having a different opinion on say how to fly the aproach more effectively when the captain is flying - let it rest.

The FTO´s might have forgotten to tell new F/O´s that they should assume that captains know the basics of how to fly the aircraft, and that , yes, most captains tend to get a little annoyed with an F/O constantly challenging every descision they make.

[beamer]

Before Start

A clip around the ear usually sorts out the problem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[arem]

<< which leg will he (the F/O) be in command of the aircraft?>>

Not wishing to sound pedantic - although many will no doubt say I am being - the F/O is never in command of the the aircraft ( unless the Captain is incapacitated ) he is only ever 'in command under supervision':E

[fmgc]

I thunk that alot of new inxperienced FO's do not realise just how inexperienced that they are.

I would never want to discourage an FO from challenging my actions if they do not think that they are correct but to have your every actioned questioned is very wearysome, especially when it is an issue of different ways to skin a cat. (Sorry veggies).

Perhpas though that the more "assertive" of new FO's might want to consider how they word the challenge (I am not talking about a blatant safety issue). Perhaps soething along the line of, "For my own learning please can you tell me why you did xzy that way?" would be more appropriate than, "Capt, I think that there is a better way of doing xzy".

[Check Airman]

Or what about: Him: "Have you ever done a cross-bleed start before?" Me: "Yes." Him: "Don´t worry it is not that difficult. I´ve done it myself lot´s of times. Okay, I´m just gonna read the procedure to make sure that you understand what you´re actions will be. Do you know the pressure has to be 30 PSI?" Me: "Yes." Him:"Are you aware that you have to start engine no.1 first?". Me:"Yes." Him:"Don´t forget to alert the groundcrew when increasing power". Me:"Okay, I think we´ve established that you know how to do it - and since I handed you the procedure to read you should assume that I have read it, maybe even that I have done it before?"

:D:D:D:O:O:O Are you serious, or joking? If you are serious, how long was that person on type?

[greybeard]

If an F/O asks which sector would I like to do, the answer is ALL, as that is the God given truth!!!
If I make the offer of which one they would like, you live with the answer if he has the gutz to say ALL.
Never ask or offer if you wont accept the answer.

CRM has regrettably "empowered" all of us to be assertive, the trick is not to over state our cases.
All members of the crew should be in the fuel/operational planning,

BUT THE LAST TIME I LOOKED THE CAPTAIN WAS THE BOSS.

I have and I hope will allow the "signifigant other" of my crews to assess and proffer a considered process for all parts, and if late accept that basic decisions may have, in good faith, been made to move the process along

:ok: :ok:

[Megaton]

Does it matter who flies which sectors? Personally, I'm quite happy to P2 all sectors since our SOPs give P2 the approach so that means you avoid the briefings and get the most enjoyable part of the trip.

[411A]

Hmmm, in over thirty years as a heavy jet Captain, I have yet to have a First Officer ask what sectors I plan to fly.
Perhaps just 'lucky'...then again the guys I fly with nowadays are all very experienced in type, so this certainly does not come up.

What I usually do is ask the F/O...you want to fly out, or back?
He then decides the fuel, loads the FMS, reads the checklist, and off we go.

Works for me.
Heck, the Flight Engineer does all the work anyway...!:E

Oh yeah, if its lousy weather, the First Officer usually flies...they have better reflexes that us old guys.;)
A very few can even roll the 'ole tri-motor on better than me.

[BeforeStart]

Check Airman: I believe he said he had 800 total and 500 hours on type.

And I wasn´t kidding in my description of the events!

[Centaurus]

From a Grumpy Old Aviator. How I hate this mamby pamby political correctness that the captain of an airliner is forced to swallow before he can get on with the job of flying his aircraft safely from A to B with the assistance of his first officer. I was perfectly content as a first officer (or second pilot, copilot, second dickie, second in ccommand or whatever title suits you) -for the captain to do his job (with my assistance where he asked for it) - and say to me "your take off". And during the cruise he would do a good job of watching the radar, planning ahead in his mind, and then say to me before top of descent "would you like to do the landing".

There was nothing of this "my leg" nonsense. Reminds me of the lovely story where the captain was appointed the company CRM guru and in so doing became known as the CRM freak. He believed the words "you are wrong" is not in the CRM vocabulary and would rebuke any unfortunate person that perhaps pointed out he had made a mistake. On descent he inadvertently set the incorrect QNH. The first officer noticed this and ever mindful of the freak's attitude to being corrected, he politely said "Excuse me captain - one of us has the wrong QNH, and IT's NOT ME!

Am I alone in this new world of steep,flat,or inverted cockpit gradients, where the real Captain is lost among the androgenic terms PF, PNF, PM, PNM. I understand from good authority that the word "Captain" is soon to be replaced by the more democratic title "Team Leader." ICAO are pushing for it - fair dinkum it is.

I miss the old days where the captain called a spade a spade and ran the show. Just like the captain of a ship. Now I tip-toe to the aircraft wondering if I should do the walk around or should it be the PF or PM that does the job. And if the PM does the job should I as PF and by sheer chance of fortune the crew member allocated as in command for the flight, - should I double check the PM has done a thorough walk around, by having a swift unobtrusive run around myself? And if I get a gut feeling that I really should have a quick double check that there is no chock left in front of the wheels, or a pitot cover left on, will the PM/PF whatever, get into a huff because I stepped into HIS area of responsibility? Isn't the captain (Team Leader) held entirely responsible for the whole operation from start-up to stop?

There has been a decades long myth that captains were always ex military bastards with an autocratic manner that terrified innocent young one stripers. Except one stripers are no more - three stripes thank you very much. In fact this is how the insidious CRM came about. CRM stands for basic good manners and a modicum of common sense in my world. Not a round-table conference.

[beamer]

Centaurus

Greetings to the colonies - best piece of sense I've seen written in a long time - thankyou. Some of us still call a spade a bloody shovel so you are not alone. Recently I asked a steward to close the R1 door on a turnaround - he then began to ask the Senior Cabin Crew member if that was ok - I did not swear at him nor raise my voice but lets just say lets just say I put him right in no uncertain terms. Captain - yes, Skipper - yes but team leader - I don't think so........

We are appointed and paid as Captains of the aircraft, we take the money along with the responsibility and when the s**t hits the fan we should stand up and take that responsibility fair and square - or are we going to run off to HR and say - its not my fault, it was the F/O's sector - again I don't think so.

Looking forward to the Ashes - we are crap at the moment but WILL improve !

[Miles Magister]

Cent,

There are some points in your post which we can all appreciate. I like to have a proper interactive brief about what we are doing before we get to the aircraft, then there is no doubt who is doing what and hopefully we miss less. F/Os should not automatically expect leg about but good Captains should split the tasks, including handling, to help develop the F/Os skill sets whilst doing the difficult parts themselves until their F/O is ready to have a go. Demonstrate, teach (Brief Monitor De-Brief), practice and consolidate. Good CRMIs will also teach the F/Os about how they should be learning as well as contributing.

I still get good feedback from F/Os about the proper sortie brief before we weven start because then everyone knows what is expected of them and what they are meant to be doing, including monitoring the other guy!

MM

[gunshy67]

Centarus et al.

Doe deal. Spot on. You get to know who runs the show when you are in the witness box, believe me. I've been there.

Yes the captain is the captain. He gets the glory and he gets the brickbats but he also needs to be well mannered and kind and remember when he was in the other seats.

As for "leg". Yes that's OK but the decisions are with the captain. He gets to make them and as for sharing tasks like starting, taxying, and other "stuff".............when the time comes to do it for real there is a program called Command Training, where real ICUS is practised, not the defacto claptrap that is practised these days.

No I am not a troglodyte, bully or grump on the flight deck. I know what it is like to be the victim on the "other side" of the flight deck so I go out of my way to not be anything else but helpful.

BUT, I am not a team leader. I am the Captain with the responsibility of managing and creating a team it's as simple as that.

[arem]

Remember - the longer the title , the less the importance - Captain is good - Sir is even better! or should it be Sir is god:E :E :E

[gunshy67]

Naw, "Captain God" who sittith on the left side of the aircraft will do fine. (Joke)

Please, it needs to get back to reality and in a very harmonious way. Be kind. Don't demand. Learn as much as you can for when the real time for command comes along.

I know there are some captains who use the uniform and the aircraft as their status in life and that can be intimidating and some times humiliating.

Hopefully they are a disappearing breed but remember they can serve as a good example as to what NOT to be.

Meanwhile, respect the captain who is competent and a high calibre human being and let the jerks go by the wayside.

Happy thoughts to you, my valued First Officer.

[Re-entry]

A captain asked me which leg I would like. I replied that I liked both my legs. He retorted ' I guess I'll be operating both sectors then'.

[CPR]

Having read all of the above I have come to the conclusion that it is a bit like golf.On the first tee the Captain has the honour,by default, as he has the lower handicap.However he may invite his partner to go first.
For the partner to presume he has the honour and walk right up and play his shot, is just not etiquette, and should be avoided at all cost.

Once down route,in my experience the F/O is ALWAYS on the tee first and roles are reversed!! FORE!!!

[Pilot Pete]

Nice analogy until you suggested that the F/O ALWAYS has the say when downroute.....

PP

[CPR]

No............Just said he is always on the first tee first.After that..who knows.
Either way, to have a harmonious working relationship we should always treat each other with the respect that we would wish to be treated ourselves.
You may be in the right seat for a while,,,,,,,,but generally you will be in the left seat alot longer.

[PGA]

Just out of interest. I`m a non UK f/o working for a UK airline. This obviously causes little problems every now and then language wise. I`m not refering to the inability to speak English but more the inability to express yourself the way you exactly want, or use a certain form of subbtleness you just don`t have as a non native speaker. Do many of you ever feel offended by certain habits or ways of expression some of your foreign, european, colleagues use, although probably unintended? Curious as well as to which nationalities you`re finding more difficult to deal with.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in advance.

[issi noho]

Thats easy its the Dutch.;)


running for cover now.:eek:

[Pilot Pete]

Thats easy its the Dutch
It's interesting you should say that. I refrained, but as you have mentioned it I will add that my company have had a few problems with new Dutch pilots (don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good ones too!), but it seems that there is a disproportionate number of them with problems during line training, mostly down to attitude or perceived attitude (that could be the cultural/ language difference you talk about. I am not a trainer, so I have heard this secondhand.

PP

[issi noho]

PP

Fools rush in and so on...

PGA

Vive Le Difference!

sorry for my total lack of Dutch

[CamelhAir]

Thats easy its the Dutch

I second that. Like Pilot Pete, I have found a disproportionate number of
our flat-countried friends to have more difficult attitudes than required. I think it's because they don't mince their words. Laudable when necessary, not so during an ordinary days work. And please please, can somebody tell them that what KLM does is necessarily the "besht" way?!

[Pilot Pete]

And please please, can somebody tell them that what KLM does is necessarily the "besht" way?! I think you missed out the "n't" from that last statement!!:\

PP

[CamelhAir]

I think you missed out the "n't" from that last statement!!

You are, of course, correct! All this talk of now great KLM* is must be affecting me subliminally.

* - or Air France by KLM, or Air France (Holland) when you require an end to such a conversation.