I still can't believe I was that stupid...

[Confabulous]

Twas the minute before I cocked up and all was going badly. We were bimbling along, with me trying to hold 1800ft and my instructor nagging me to hold altitude within +/- 200ft. It had been 6 weeks since I had my previous lessons, which went so well I was actually pleased with my performance. That was the first problem, me being a humble student pilot and cocky b*stard.

This day was completely different. I was 3 hours and 300 miles behind the aircraft, wondering why I couldn't hold altitude and why the power kept gradually decreasing. Then my instructor asked me to get my map, which I'd casually tossed in the back a few minutes before, so I began a search of the untidy back seats,tossing things this way and that.

After a minute or so of scrabbling around my instructor spoke up. 'Have you forgotten something?' 'No', I replied frantically, 'I'm sure I'll find it somewhere!' 'No, no', he insisted, 'You have forgotten something, something important.' I stopped searching and looked around, but couldn't spot anything amiss. What was the damn problem?

I looked again.

No-one was flying the aircraft! I'd forgotten to utter the magic words, 'You have control'

Burning with shame I put my hands and feet back where they were meant to be and uttered the words, confirmed he had control and turned back to my search.

The power had been reducing because I'd been resting my hand on the throttle (PA28), and I couldn't hold altitude because I'd been slightly out of trim.

As an aside, I once completed a landing thinking my instructor had control - I was wrong, I had control all the way to touchdown - I only found out a few hours later. The landing was fine, but still, it makes me confirm who has control now.


I learned about flying that day (and every other day) and I write this as a sort of informal ASRS report - I frankly don't care if it makes me look stupid, if one person takes it on board then it's worth it.

[Fuji Abound]

To consol you, it is a situation the instructor is looking for, and will find at some time or other with most, if not nearly all students.

However, forgetting to keep control (never mind thinking you had passed it to the P2) is something that can happen to all of us - that is the real lesson. This sort of situation in IMC is potentially a killer, even if a only a little less dangerous in VMC.

However, you will cover different recoveries and these will make even more sense now. With altitude on your side almost any situation is recoverable so long as you act quickly enough and in the correct way.

[planeenglish]

We who are still studying for our PPL need to know things like this. Thanks,

PE

[kevmusic]

Don't be too hard on yourself, Confab. After all, that's what we're students for - to make mistakes and learn. I am a fully licensed, fully rated, multi-thousand hour piano instructor, and I have seen many over-critical adult pupils whipping themselves for perfectly natural run-of-the-mill errors, instead of focussing on getting to grips with the next problem.

Put this down to experience and know that you will make other seemingly silly errors. Our instructors certainly wouldn't thank us all for being perfect from day 1 - that would put them out of a job! :ok:

Kev.

[aw8565]

We who are still studying for our PPL need to know things like this. Thanks,

PE

Damn right. That whole can't hold altitude/speed/heading thing is the worst but I guess it's not just me... Gaps in training are not the best so I'm planning to go to Spain for a few days intensive....

[Florida mud wrestler]

Can't understand why the aircraft didn't disply the same sense of humour that most aircraft do in similar circumstances when nobody has control - enter a spiral dive without anybody noticing!:\

[foxmoth]

That is the other instructor trick in this situation - just gently apply a little rudder and see how long before the student reacts.:E

[planeenglish]

I have a question somewhat regarding this argument. It is my understanding that an instructor can have very few hours. In fact a lot of flight training schools use very young and therefore, inexperienced, instructors to teach/instruct PPL trainees.

These types of things, giving a bit of rudder in an instance when the student pilot neglects to pass control, come with experience albeit may be a simple thing learned even themselves as a student pilot. Even though, I would rather a grey haired, or even no-haired instructor (my theory is they lose their hair rather than their temper ;) )who has accumulated hours and hours. We as humans learn by mistake/experience. It seems that I can learn more from a pilot with thousands of hours than one who is still acquiring hours/experience.

What do you all think?

Regards,
PE

[BEagle]

The instructor did something very stupid when he didn't insist on a firm "I have control" handover. Unless you hear those words, you will always have control. But by your own admission, there have already been a couple of occasions when you didn't know who had control - that is highly dangerous and your FI needs a sound kick! To say "Have you forgotten something" whilst you are learning to fly and are handling the aeroplane is another stupid and confusing thing to do. If he wanted you to get your map, he should have said "I have control"; you then hand over. Then he should have made the teaching point "You need to have your map available within reach. Please do so in future." Then, when you had retrieved the map and had stowed it somewhere accessible, he should have confirmed you were ready, then said something like "When I give you control, I want you to maintain this heading and speed as you've been taught, this time try to make sure you don't inadvertently reduce power by leaning on the throttle lever! Any questions? No? OK - You have control" and waited for your "I have control response" before releasing control to you.

Also, interfering with the flight controls when someone else is handling the aeroplane "...just gently apply a little rudder and see how long before the student reacts" is a definite no-no.

Who are the 'instructors' who are doing such things?

You "weren't that stupid" - but your FI certainly was!

[Maxflyer]

It seems that I can learn more from a pilot with thousands of hours than one who is still acquiring hours/experience.

Just a tad disingenuous, anyone who has achieved an instructor rating has done so by merit and proving their ability to manage new students as well as some more experienced PPLs. I have been checked out by instructors at both ends of the age/experience spectrum and have learnt from all. The ones who hold a newly minted Instructor rating often cover more items during a flight, simply because it is fresh in the mind, whereas those with more hours have the benefit of experience. I know some instructors are hours building, so what! They have earned the right to instruct and should be accorded the respect due. Having said all of that; there are still some bad instructors, but they are considerably less in number than the good ones.

[Say again s l o w l y]

BEagle,
I think that's a bit harsh. From the sound of this thread, Confabulous won't make that mistake again. So job done. I think it's a pretty good technique, let the student make the mistake but also to see what could happen. A far more effective demonstration than just telling a student what could potentially happen.

Don't worry Confab, you aren't the first and you certainly won't be the last to make a mistake. The key is that you learn from it. No-one is born a sky-god!

[BEagle]

Six weeks between trips, the student is obviously struggling and the instructor merely says "Have you forgotten something?"....

Will that help?

Nope. And I still think he was a total tit.

[planeenglish]

Just a tad disingenuous, anyone who has achieved an instructor rating has done so by merit and proving their ability to manage new students as well as some more experienced PPLs. I have been checked out by instructors at both ends of the age/experience spectrum and have learnt from all. The ones who hold a newly minted Instructor rating often cover more items during a flight, simply because it is fresh in the mind, whereas those with more hours have the benefit of experience. I know some instructors are hours building, so what! They have earned the right to instruct and should be accorded the respect due. Having said all of that; there are still some bad instructors, but they are considerably less in number than the good ones.
Dear Maxflyer, the question was by no means insincere, it couldn't have been more sincere, nor was it meant to be facetious. I wouldn't have raised this issue if I weren't sincere. I've seen some of the responses on this forum and know that people can be outright rude and asked this question with the utmost sincerity.

There is no doubt legally the FI with brand new status follows the rule book and less "off-the-cuff" (for those who don't know this idiom it means to do something without plan and in this particular context without much thought to the rules).


My question was simply to ask your everyone's opinion. Thanks for yours,

Kind regards,
PE

[Say again s l o w l y]

Ah, I didn't notice the 6 week gap. I'm not sure that the FI is a "tit" but a bit more support may have been sensible.

[Whirlybird]

A lot of all this is about the best ways of dealing with people and allowing them to learn rather than specifically about flying instruction. That isn't really something that's taught in the flying instructor course. It comes with experience, both of flying and of life. It also involves a genuine empathy with people and desire for them to do well...not necessarily the same as liking them, though that helps too. Not all flying instructors have this. Some are better at it than others, and some improve as they gain the experience. Some don't even realise it's important!

To my mind, anything like Confabulous describes is something of a nasty trick, and ultimately won't help the student. It smacks of the instructor trying to put one over on the student, to prove how clever he is. I don't like it and I wouldn't do it. Flying is hard enough without instructors being devious.

Instructions and teaching should be simple and straightforward. If someone forgets the whole "I have control" thing, then keep reminding them. If they keep leaving their map out of reach, then remind them till they remember. We've all done it, and Confabulous shouldn't have been made to feel bad about this. As I think someone said earlier in the thread - you learn from something and go on. Well, I think this type of trick-playing makes it harder for the student to do that. It was a little thing; it shouldn't have been made into something big and dramatic by the instructor.

Having said that, instructors are learning too. So let's not be too hard on this guy...though I still think what he did was unhelpful.

[DFC]

I am with Beagle on this one.

My advice in such situations is for the student to always think of what they would do in a similar situation after they have their PPL.

The answer is either - a) Don't put the map (or anything else required in flight) there in the first place; or

Get the passenger in the right seat to do the searching while you fly the aircraft. i.e. ask the instructor in this case to retreive the map.

If the instructor refuses (very bad on their part), then simply say "You have control".

Regards,

DFC

[foxmoth]

I still think what he did was unhelpful.
Whilst this is not something I would do often, I do think there are times when you have repeated an instruction such as handing over control numerous times without it sinking in, and a gentle demonstration of why this is the case saves a lot of wasted breath and this would seem to be the situation here, especially as there had been a previous situation where who had control had been a bit confused, and at a much more critical point!

[bencoulthard]

I don't agree with Beagle on this one, learn from your mistakes. If the FI didn't make a big enough point of a mistake then maybe it wouldn't register as a mistake in the students head.

I know its a long way from flight training but I teach new employees to drive my road sweepers. Driving one of these things is like patting your head and rubbing your belly whilst driving. Everyone I teach can't believe how much concentration it takes at first and all agree it is like learning to drive all over again.

I let them make mistakes, then follow the hmmmm why did you get into this pickle route, then I show them what should have happened. I find this works far better than saying "don't do this and that cos its not right" it simply doesn't sink in as they are too busy concentrating on the new vehicle they are driving.

Maybe I shoudl adopt the "you have control" command as these machines have dual controls also. :)

Ben

[SkyHawk-N]

I'm going to sound harsh now as I also think that the instructor was a tit.

If this was an effective training method then why isn't it used more regularly(?). I had reoccuring hang ups when I learnt, forgetting things, doing things in the wrong order, doing the wrong things, probably like most people. A gentle reminder usually did the trick, even if the gentle reminder was repeated a number of times. Remember that even at the later stages of training many (if not all) students still lack confidence and examples of this type of 'teaching' can do more damage than good, just look at the title of this thread for an example.

[justinmg]

After a minute or so of scrabbling around my instructor spoke up. 'Have you forgotten something?' 'No', I replied frantically, 'I'm sure I'll find it somewhere!' 'No, no', he insisted, 'You have forgotten something, something important.' I stopped searching and looked around, but couldn't spot anything amiss. What was the damn problem?
I looked again.
No-one was flying the aircraft! I'd forgotten to utter the magic words, 'You have control'


Calling someone a tit is typical for these parts.
Unfortunatley the lessons learned are not noticed by people who read 2nd hand reports. People who can only appreciate teaching methods from a single approach make poor teachers. Students and teachers vary.
Getting someone to solve their own problem and critically appraise a situation is often much better than just dolling out directions. We need to teach students to be able to develop independance, and spoonfeeding can lead to dependance on the teacher.
Feeling shame for making a basic error is completely natural, and learning can not occur without it. Unless repeatedly negative, it is usually a powerful learning stimulus.

Sounds to me like, teacher taught, student learned. End of.

Others may like to overlay their own methods and egos onto the situation.

[Michael Jeffs]

I had a similar incident recently.

I was at about 1000 in a LH circuit. I left the controls for a short while whilst I looked for a beer.

Unfortunately, the beers were in the fridge downstairs.

Fortunately, I was on FS2004 on my computer!

:O

[Whirlybird]

I've just re-read Confabulous' first post. The instructor ASKED him to get his map. By doing this, the instructor was implying that he (the instructor) had control of the aircraft, IMHO. Saying "you have control" was unnecessary under such circumstances. Or should have been, except the instructor was trying to trip up a low hours student who hadn't flown for six weeks. I take back the relatively charitable comments of my last post; the instructor's behaviour was downright appalling!!!!!!

[rustle]

I've just re-read Confabulous' first post. The instructor ASKED him to get his map. By doing this, the instructor was implying that he (the instructor) had control of the aircraft, IMHO. Saying "you have control" was unnecessary under such circumstances. Or should have been, except the instructor was trying to trip up a low hours student who hadn't flown for six weeks. I take back the relatively charitable comments of my last post; the instructor's behaviour was downright appalling!!!!!!

Aviate, navigate, communicate ;)

Bet you won't forget next time, Confabulous :ok:

[BEagle]

"By doing this, the instructor was implying that he (the instructor) had control of the aircraft, IMHO. Saying "you have control" was unnecessary under such circumstances."

Whirly, there is never any 'implication' concerning who has control. Particularly with a low-time student, the mantra "I have control.." - "You have control" must be followed without exception.

It was one of the absolute basics I was taught when I started instructing - and still is!

[Final 3 Greens]

Feeling shame for making a basic error is completely natural, and learning can not occur without it.

Absolute nonsense.

Feeling uncomfortable can be a part of learning, but that is quite different to feeling shame.

Positive reinforcement is a much more powerful technique than negative.

I would recommend Confabulous to seriously consider finding an instructor with a more professional approach.

And I wholeheartedly support BEagle's comments.

[Confabulous]

Hmmm, the more I look at my original post, the more I agree with BEagle.

Of course I made a mistake by whipping around to go hunting for the map - in fact I should have just stowed it in the map pocket by my leg. As much as I hate to admit it, I was struggling. Although the landing went very well, my instructor has a habit of 'guarding' the controls to make sure I don't apply very large inputs, but it makes me unsure of whether I have control or not, especially in the flare. Reconfirming 'you have control' would make it a lot easier.

Interestingly, about feeding in controls - in my first few hours he caught me out a few times - rolling on 90+ degrees of bank and telling me to recover, distracting me and slamming in a bootful of rudder (below Va). In his defence he says I'm well above average for a PPL student, but it's faint praise in those situations. Added to the fact is that he's one of my best friends (and I'm beginning to wonder about that), I think I'll finish my PPL training in Florida.

[Whirlybird]

Whirly, there is never any 'implication' concerning who has control. Particularly with a low-time student, the mantra "I have control.." - "You have control" must be followed without exception.

In which case, asking a lowtime student to get his map, without saying "I have control", is most definitely likely to cause confusion.

[foxmoth]

Having given this instructor the benefit of the doubt, especially after the initial post where it sounded like this had actually worked this instructor is now sounding a bit dodgy! When I talked about feeding in rudder that would only have been enough to reproduce what a slightly out of balance aircraft would do if left alone - not slamming in a bootful of rudder (below Va). and any instructor that has a habit of 'guarding' the controls to make sure I don't apply very large inputs undermines the student and I would say probably does not have enough confidence in his own abilities.:=

[rustle]

I don't know, foxmoth.

Give it another ten minutes and the story might have changed again, or more hidden facts emerged...

:suspect:

[Confabulous]

The facts are still the same, I initially didn't mention everything becuase it simply didn't occur to me. The reason I started the thread was to warn people about my specific mistake and hope that someone else might benefit.

[VNAVSPD]

I'm with whirly and F3G on this one.

When I was learning to fly I made really good progress until I had to swap instructors. My new instructor was fairly young and very arrogant. He had a strange sense of humor that I didn't understand and I never knew when he was being serious. He always gave me the impression that proving his own ability was far more important than passing his knowledge on to me.

Most of the conversation comprised of sarcastic comments, and when things weren't going great, there was this tone in his voice as though he was about to give-up and I was never going to be able to fly an aircraft. Things went rapidly down-hill to the point where I was unable to perform simple tasks. Maintaining straight and level was impossible, I was so nervous, and eventually I gave up.


Finally I decided to give it one last shot with another flying school, and thank god I did. My 3rd instructor was fantastic. It's hard to describe his approach, but I certainly never felt ashamed. Sure, I made silly mistakes, but he was able to point out the seriousness of them without making it seem as if it was the end of the world, and I very rarely made the same mistake twice. He always gave the impression that he had all the time in the world and that nothing was impossible.

Maybe the "treat em mean" tactic works for some people. We all have different personalities, but for me, constructive criticism is far more helpful than a bollocking! :ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Instructors are human beings and make as many mistakes in their daily lives as anyone else, trying to judge an individual's competence based on an internet bulletin board and some very sketchy facts is deeply unsound.

Whilst I wouldn't have acted in exactly the same way, I don't see the original actions as being particularily serious. The student learnt a lesson and won't make the same mistake again. Is it imporant how this was achieved?
Not really.

Each student I have taught has required a different teaching technique, some need to be nagged, others need me to be sweetness and light personified (a very difficult proposition for me sometimes!!) whilst the occasional one has only responded when I've given them both barrels. The key is to be aware of how your student is doing and modify your approach.

"Guarding" the controls is something that we have all needed to do at some point, having had numerous people decide without warning to try and destroy the nose wheel, having your hand somewhere near isn't a bad idea, though I do it serruptiously by resting my hand on my knee just under the control column so as not to undermine the student.

[Confabulous]

Just to be clear - I had no intention of insulting or denigrating my instructor, just wanted to point out my own mistakes. I have certainly learned from them, and will be more careful in future. That said, I'll be changing instructors, because it may be that being very good friends with my instructor detracts from the learning experience.

[foxmoth]

"Guarding" the controls is something that we have all needed to do at some point,

There are many ways of guarding the controls - but it should not be obvious to the student - it is amazing how fast you can get control whilst seeming to have your hands a long way off before.:hmm:

[Final 3 Greens]

Instructors are human beings and make as many mistakes in their daily lives as anyone else, trying to judge an individual's competence based on an internet bulletin board and some very sketchy facts is deeply unsound.

Agree that it is inappropriate to judge competence, but the approach to the "learning exercise" was unprofessional on the data presented.

What was the learning objective? - that aeroplanes drift off course if not controlled, the importance of the "I/you have control handover", that the chart should always be in easy reach?

It may be one or all of these or something different, but how can learning be effective when the objectives are not totally clear.

I am not a flight instructor, but I am well qualified academically and practically to design learning interventions.

If the learning objective was to show that a map should be kept within reach, then a simple question of "explain to me how would you reach your chart if I wasn't here to take control" would have been equally effective, faster and less traumatic. Confab would hope fully have thought about that and realised that (a) solo would have been very risky, (b) with a pax post PPL, perhaps the pax could have assisted for a few moments - not without risk and (c) the only sensible stategy is to have the chart close to hand.

However, we have a confused student who may have missed the point of the exercise, because it was poorly setup up, executed and debriefed - any professional instructor knows that the most hard hitting criticism is self criticism - in fact many people will not truly accept a bollocking as it makes them defensive, which is a learning barrier.

So the instructor may have been competent, but displayed an unprofessional approach.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I can't agree with some of your statements. Occasionally in flying it is required that you do scare the living hell out of someone especially if they are cocky so and so's.

Flying is by definition a dangerous activity and incredibly unforgiving of error or poor judgement so using "classroom" techniques are sometimes not appropriate. If you tell someone that something is dangerous and that they shouldn't do it you may reach most people, but if you show them why a certain activity is daft, then you are more likely to get the point across.

With an FI onboard all manner of problems can be demonstrated safely, a far better scenario than having a student or PPL finding out what a bad idea something maybe for the first time when solo.

For example, we could just talk and explain about stalling or spinning rather than actually completing the excercise, but no-one in their right minds would think that that is acceptable.

Whilst we don't want to scare people, a certain level of respect for the situation they find themselves in is appropriate and in this situation Confabulous is highly unlikely to make a similar mistake in the future.

The point of the excercise was clearly made, don't keep things out of reach, don't put your head down and make sure you are always absolutely clear who's in charge of flying the machine.

Flying training is a very dynamic thing, no two lessons are ever the same and we are not just dealing with passing on information, but we are also trying to build confidence, allay fears and trying to keep the a/c in one piece. Compared to teaching in a classroom it is a totally different activity. So the same bench marks cannot be used.

[Final 3 Greens]

SAS

I don't think that we disagree so much as you might imagine, but I think you are being a little defensive about the FI here.

By the way, where did I compare teaching in a classroom to airwork in flight training? Although I would have expected an element of classroom briefing for the training flight in question, frankly.

I said that I was qualified to design learning interventions - that includes experiential activities (the airwork in flight training is such an experience) and simulations, as well as classroom and other activities.

For example, we could just talk and explain about stalling or spinning rather than actually completing the excercise,

AFAIK spinning per se is not on the PPL syllabus, but it is discussed and the incipient spin and how to prevent further development is included - but the instructor briefs it first - you don't just blast off and do it and then try to make sense of the experience afterwards.

So if the instructor really wanted to show confabulous what might have happened, he should have asked the question in my last post and then explained that he was going to ask Confabulous to get the chart, guard the controls (I have control) and let the aircraft wander (safely.) The debrief would have been to ask Confabulous about the risks of letting this happen for real, e.g. losing control. All done professionally and using positive reinforcement in a safe learning environment, not the negative reinforcement described, which as I said before is more likly to lead to a learning blockage due to a normal defensive reaction (the teachers behaviour overrides the learning.)

That would have been a far better course of action than tricking a guy on his first lesson for 6 weeks. What's smart about that? The "bollocking" is more likely to inhibit focus on the rest of the lesson.

A good summary for hands on experiential technical learning is "tell them what they are going to see, let them see it, let them tell you about what they saw, talk about what they saw, and let them show it to you."

Of course, every 121 learning session will vary (we are talking human factors here, not pilot factors!), but there should be a clear structure that the participant (student pilot in this case) is aware of, so that they can maximise their learning experience.

I see certain elements of that missing in Confabulous' experience.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

My instructor - with me at least - was as many of you may describe as 'young and arrogant', which, at the time of my training, could sometimes be slightly disconcerting. However, when I had that PPL in my hand after passing first time with no fails, I couldn't thank him enough, because his approach to teaching made me a stronger, more adept pilot. Indeed, a long time ago landing at Cambridge, I almost mistaked the tall grass for the centerline of the grass runway before making a late correction - after telling him this, his reaction was to stare at the instrument panel followed by a look outside with no comment. In my opinion, because he didn't need to make a comment. At the end of the day, everybody will respond differently to varied methods of instruction, but for me, Confab's instructor sounds like he applies methods which will ultimately result in his student being a better pilot for it. I am a kinesthetic learner, which means I learn from making practical mistakes, as opposed to seeing or hearing about them and learning from that. This is rather unfortunate seeing as I am planning on a career in aviation, however maybe my instructor picked up on this and decided that I needed a greater kick in the backside than some...

Just my opinion,

Cheers, Jack.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jack

I am a kinesthetic learner, which means I learn from making practical mistakes, as opposed to seeing or hearing about them and learning from that.

mmmm - bit more to it than that, its more about learning by associating physical experience with events, so perhaps recalling the sloppy feeling associated with the controls and the buffet just before the stall and then learning to recover at that stage, whereas the visual learning style will see the angle of the earth against a reference point and an aural will hear the different slipstream noise etc.

You might be interested in the following website http://www.learning-styles-online.com/

It might help you to take full advantage of your preference.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

F3G,

Thanks for the input, I'll have a look at that now.

Cheers, Jack.

[Whirlybird]

Hmmmmm....the title of this thread leads me to think it's rather unlikely that Confabulous' instructor decided this was an appropriate method of instructing for this particular person. Or if he did, he got it wrong. We have a low hours, out of practice student, who feels he's been incredibly stupid. And he wasn't. He simply made a mistake. A mistake, I might add, that many low hours students would be likely to make. At that stage, you do what your instructor tells you. You probably, especially after a break from flying, haven't got the spare capacity to think: "Did he say he had control? Should I check?" No, you'd just do as you're told. So it's a confusing and inappropriate way to teach a very simple fact.

Yes, some students are arrogant and cocky and need to be yelled at. But for every one of those, there are half a dozen who take things too much to heart, for whom yelling is counter-productive and positvely harmful. And even some of the arrogant, cocky ones respond quite well to being cut down to size if you prove you can fly lots better than them. You can do that without appearing a show-off...well, you can in an R22 anyway. ;) IMHO, yelling is a last resort, and so are devious methods of instruction.

[rustle]

He simply made a mistake. A mistake, I might add, that many low hours students would be likely to make. At that stage, you do what your instructor tells you...

Okay, last try. :ugh:

You're learning to drive and you're on an A road at 50 MPH.

Will the thought of letting go of the steering wheel and rummaging around in the back seat ever cross your mind?

Of course it won't, even if someone asks or tells you to.

Neither should it have airborne.

The original diagnosis was the most accurate.

Learn from it.

Get over it.

Move onto next lesson.

[Final 3 Greens]

You're learning to drive and you're on an A road at 50 MPH.

Will the thought of letting go of the steering wheel and rummaging around in the back seat ever cross your mind?

With the very greatest of respect, that is one of the worst analogies I have seen recently, since the two situations are quite dissimilar, full dual controls and the normal handing over of control from one side to the other being one major difference.

Whirly is right, instructors possess legitimate and referent power and most low experience trainees will do pretty much as they are told.

What we have here is post hoc rationalisation of a poor piece of instruction.

Learn from it.

Get over it.

Move onto next lesson.

Agreed - find a new instructor.

[Whirlybird]

instructors possess legitimate and referent power and most low experience trainees will do pretty much as they are told.


In fact, we could usefully have a discussion on the problems involved in getting some students to stop relying on their instructors and become real pilots. But this is not the way to teach that, and it's really a subject for a separate thread.

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirly

Agreed on both points.