how to improve LOOKOUT? or Flightsimmer Problems...?

[acuba 290]

Need some advice, but please take it serious;)
At the moment after 9 hr flight training i know that my 2x biggest mistakes coming from 8 years flightsim on computer.

Problem N1: LOOKOUT. Somehow i forgetting oft to do it and looking more than it needed on instruments. Not good for VFR and not good at all. What is your tips for that? How to improve it?

Problem N2: Rudder. I forget oft about rudder's existence. How to make it always combined with throttle settings automatically?

Anybody had such problems also? Need some tips from you, guys;)

[mad_jock]

Get the biggest chart you can find and cover all the instruments but fold a corner so the FI can see the alt, it doesn't need to be in date BTW. Then fly and be happy.

Every time you change the throttle adjust your nuts. If its power up use your left hand power down use your right. It won't make a difference but the fact you are thinking power up and power down will stimulate your brain and it will happen.

The instrument thing is only really solved completely by becoming a instructor and flying from the RHS seat all the time. The night rating restriction removal gives you a black belt in flying by attitude and engine noise.

Don't beat yourself up though its a very common problem even with people with no FS time. Every instructor has there own method of dealing with it. Be it post-it notes or a GBFO chart across the lot depending on there own limitations. Best solution I have seen is 2 carboard cutouts for the alt and the air speed with +- 100ft and +- 5 knots everything else was covered from hour zero.

Persoanlly if i even suspected instrument fixation the whole lot got covered. And the basics were revisited until the student was able to trim for all modes of flight without the things. What does get to annoy though is students without anything can fly a perfect circuit at cock on circuit height, correct airspeed etc without any instruments at all. Then proceed to make a complete bollocks of it when they can see only the alt, rpm and ASI.

"look out the bloody window" must be one of the most used phrases in aviation training.

[IO540]

Not that I particularly disagree with anything above but it could be argued both ways. I am not one to avoid controversy, so here we go...

It's very true that PPL instructors dislike students who have previous sim experience. If the student used the sim correctly and actually learnt on it as one would do on a real sim, he is likely to be flying by numbers and at least partly on instruments. There is a big body of opinion among the traditional VFR scene that there is no place for this in PPL training - even though if you fly something slightly more complex than a C150 you will be operating by numbers if doing it properly.

Another thing is that a student who has been doing "technical" flying like this is likely to have a much better understanding of the plane and the systems in it. Plus superior situational awareness resulting from instrument navigation. But, again, instructors don't like people who "run before they can walk". I was constantly accused of this, when looking at planes to fly IFR as soon as I started PPL training (because it was so obvious that VFR is of very limited use for going places).

There are instructors who are willing to take on board a challenging student like that and have some fun, while most others will regard him as a smart-ar*e who is way ahead of himself.

In the longer run, decent instrument flight capability (whether or not legalised in the form of the IMC Rating or an IR) is essential for VFR flight, due to frequent poor visibility in haze or rain. Or at night...

[Julian]

Get the biggest chart you can find and cover all the instruments but fold a corner so the FI can see the alt, it doesn't need to be in date BTW. Then fly and be happy.


Or if you want something a bit easier use post it notes to cover selected instruments up.

On my IR check ride the examiner failed instruments using a rubber suction soap holder!!! :}

Julian.

[IO540]

On a sim like FS2004, one can also select a cockpit view which doesn't show much of the instruments.

Unfortunately, every PC sim I've ever used is useless in pitch behaviour. X-Plane got closest. This is a pity since going the pitch trim correctly and using it in all phases of flight is crucial in cockpit workload control, in all flight, VFR included.

[Windy Militant]

Problem N2: Rudder. I forget oft about rudder's existence. How to make it always combined with throttle settings automatically?


Can I suggest that you get some time on a Taildragger of some description that'll get your rudder problem sorted out! Come to think of it the sparcity of instruments might help with Problem N1 as well.
Best of luck with the training.:ok:

[LowNSlow]

I'll second Windy M's comment. Spend some time in the back seat of a Piper Cub (J3/L4 not Supercub) where all you can see of the instrument panel is over the instructor's shoulders and you will lose the fixation with the instruments and concentrate on flying by feel. The adverse yaw that you get by trying to turn on ailerons alone will soon focus your feet.

[acuba 290]

today done first 7 curcuits, all of them was not so good. Strange feeling, that throttle makes glidepath and yoke makes speed...

[Eddie_Crane]

It'll all come together.
Just focus outside the cockpit and use instruments to confirm the situation.
In other words, use your instruments only to confirm situational awareness.
I have progressed from staring at certain instruments to not even looking at them, if only to confirm the situation (e.g. climb at Vy, etc etc..).

[Confabulous]

MJ and IO540 have very good points, there's not much for me to add!

I admit I had the same problem going from the sim to real life - flying the real thing is a bit like agoraphobia - suddenly you see far too much. For lookout, my instructor told me to imagine I'm about to be jumped by an Me-109 - it does wonders!

One of the great things about real life is that it's frequently inaccurate - even with the latest version of X-Plane (used only for research purposes :E ;) ) it seems difficult to land - or at least until you compare it with the real thing, which is so easy it's unrealistic!

Next time you're up, take a look out along the wing and roll a couple of degrees each way. You'll notice adverse yaw is very obvious (at least on the Warrior II), and it's a good way of teaching your feet what to do. Do a couple of large deflection aileron movements and you'll notice the roll is a lot faster and smoother with a hefty boot of rudder. Also realise that at climb power you MUST have one foot (usually the right one) doing some work, even more at slower speeds.

Attitude is the single most important factor in flying, but it's self regulating once the aircraft is trimmed correctly. When it's trimmed for level flight at 90 knots, open the throttle to max. The aircraft won't accelerate, but climb. Counterintuitive but fascinating!

I HIGHLY recommend www.av8n.com (http://www.av8n.com) for an explanation of how an aircraft really flies - none of this "attitude + power = performance" nonsense... whoever thought that up should be forced to fly Cessnas for the rest of their life!

[DFC]

none of this "attitude + power = performance" nonsense... whoever thought that up should be forced to fly Cessnas for the rest of their life!

Please explain why that statement is wrong and how you operate the aircraft not using those basic principles?

Regards,

DFC

[172driver]

There is a big body of opinion among the traditional VFR scene that there is no place for this in PPL training - even though if you fly something slightly more complex than a C150 you will be operating by numbers if doing it properly.
Another thing is that a student who has been doing "technical" flying like this is likely to have a much better understanding of the plane and the systems in it. Plus superior situational awareness resulting from instrument navigation. But, again, instructors don't like people who "run before they can walk". I was constantly accused of this, when looking at planes to fly IFR as soon as I started PPL training (because it was so obvious that VFR is of very limited use for going places).
There are instructors who are willing to take on board a challenging student like that and have some fun, while most others will regard him as a smart-ar*e who is way ahead of himself.
In the longer run, decent instrument flight capability (whether or not legalised in the form of the IMC Rating or an IR) is essential for VFR flight, due to frequent poor visibility in haze or rain. Or at night...

Hear, hear ! 100% correct IO540 :ok:

[acuba 290]

but how to delete and cancell all my knowledge from flightsim? i understand totally, that it is very bad fro VFR and i just hate myself about this stopid mistakes i do, but somehow it is really some flightsim instincts established and it is very difficult to get away from it:confused:

[172driver]

well, akuba, w/o knowing you, your flying or your instructor this is hard to tell, but I'm going to say the heretic here - what if the problem is your instructor? There are, after all, plenty out there for whom anything else but a whisky compass and an ASI are works of the devil..... tin hat now on.

[ShyTorque]

No rudder awareness and too much reliance on instruments, eh?

Try flying a glider. That'll cure it. ;)

[Whirlybird]

acuba,

Practice, practice, practise. Oh, and then some more practice. That is how you change any habit, flying-related or otherwise. And that's all your looking at instruments all the time is - a habit. And when your instructor reminds you to look out the window, just do that; don't run around in your head beating yourself up over having made a mistake yet again. Ditto for using the rudder.

And don't listen to all these people on here telling you knowledge of instrument flying is wonderful. It is, but you need to learn to fly by looking out the window first. Anyway, why not, on a lovely day like this? That's what you're up there for, isn't it. :ok:

It's a common problem, and you're very new to flying, so please stop worrying so much. Ask and try and correct, yes! But don't worry; if you work at it, it will get better.

[Confabulous]

Please explain why that statement is wrong and how you operate the aircraft not using those basic principles?

It's wrong in a few ways, especially for prop aircraft.

1. In the mushing regime, nose high.
2. At high cruise speeds (try raising the nose, speed will decrease, even at max throttle)

Finally, it also give the impression that pointing the nose up and shoving the throttle forward gives a climb. Not always.

In short, it's hopelessly inadequate for all but a very limited range of speeds. Fine if you're flying an F16, but useless in a light aircraft. A student, if given only this 'rule' would stall and spin, in my opinion.

[bookworm]

You're reading far too much into "attitude + power = performance", Confabulous.

The essence is that (longitudinal) performance is determined predictably from a combination of input variables: aircraft attitude and powerplant output. It makes no claim on the direction of change of the outputs (speed, rate of climb) inputs in response to changes in the inputs. It would be better expressed as "performance is a function of attitude and power", but that's less comprehensible to students without technical backgrounds.

[steinycans]

Dear a
In terms of cancelling or deleting things youve learnt on FS, there is no silver bullet. however, it can be completly overcome if you take full advantage of the time you have in the air...
I am not an instructor, i am a student as well.
I didnt start using FS2002 until after i finished my PPL so i learnt to fly without it but hopefully i can help.
i might first suggest that you not use flight simulator for a while. the reason for this is; you may be picking up bad habits which could be cancelling out the good work your instructor is providing for you. It's not forever, i have found FS immensly helpful for more advanced stages of learning. if you can find an instructor who is personally experienced with PC flight simulators, he will be able to tell you when that is
For the rudder, the key is in looking closley at and picking a point on the horizon and practising using the rudder to keep the nose fixed on that point on the horizon.
If you fixate on keeping the tip of the nose pointed to that point on the horizon on takeoff, climb, cruise, everything, you should improve markedly.
eg: in the climb after takeoff, you are supposed to use right rudder because of low speed/high power, yeah? well if you look at the horizon while you are climbing and the nose is drifting off to the left, you arent using enough right foot/rudder. if its drifting off to the right, youre using too much. avoid using ailerons for these small corrections while dual, practise 'locking' the aileron in place during the climb like so:
your right hand should be on the throttle. the thimb of your left hand should be curled around the apex of the "L" shape of the left side of the control column, hand in a fist-shape and the pinkey resting on your knee.
this will help you resist 'waggling' the ailerons.
it sounds really basic but perhaps your experience with flight simultor has caused you to not concentrate so much on isolating a point on the horizon to steer towards. This might be because of a lack of graphical detail on the simulated horizon.
when it comes to climing and decending, and straight and level for that matter. for me the key is in how far above the top of the compass or dashboard the horizon is. also, listen closly to the engine, get to know what it sounds like when its cruising along straight and level. if you start an involuntary climb, it will begin to sound a bit slower and obviously if youre decending, it will start to sound like its going a bit faster. these things are corrected with the elevator. if the engines labouring, look out at the horizon and i bet you 99% you are in a slight climb.

horizon

[i.dingbat]

1. The panel of this Citabria doesn't provide much distraction:

http://www.iainhosking.com/images/2005/11/06/camden_downwind_s.jpg

2. and the fact it has a tailwheel forces you to use the rudder.

3. to go places without IFR, try living in Australia :cool: :E

(ducking while running away)

It will come. Good luck! :ok:

[raviolis]

Played GranTurismo or Daytona for years, but didn't develop a habit of driving over curbs at 150 mph when I'm in my car :)

Seriously... FS is a good videogame, but take it for what it is, a videogame ! Up in the air it's so different, the noise, the vibrations, everything really, that you can't even compare the 2 situations.
I guess FS can give you good instrument scanning skills, just make sure you don't abuse of them. It took me 1 lesson to fix that, since if I kept looking at them I would eventually feel sick ! Also, as soon as you realise that the traffic in the air is real, and it can hurt you, your instinct will make sure you are looking out of the window quite a lot ! :)

If problem with FS is lack of rudder, you can get one of those joysticks with the twisting grip that acts as rudder. It won't get your feet working, but will get your brain to think about it. Once in the cockpit, you'll feel the pedals and it'll be quite natural to use them.

Good luck

[acuba 290]

at the moment i hate FS and want to forget it and just delete from my brain. FS is a big ****, which makes PPL study for me a huge problem and i need more hour training to get all FS instincts away, that's my reality at the moment:uhoh:

[mad_jock]

Don't worry about it, as i said its a very common trate with PPL students. With FS experence and without.

Next time you go for a lesson take a pack of post-it notes with you and tell your FI of your concerns. Then go and do a bit of revision with everything covered. An hour or two at this stage sorting the problems out will save you hours later on if you can nip it in the bud.

But the main thing is to have a laugh at yourself and enjoy the challange. If you get all wound up and tense. You will start gripping the controls with the old white knuckle death grip and the whole thing will be 10 times worse. Let the plane do the flying, you just look out the window and give it a poke in the right direction.

Enjoy your not the first and you won't be the last.

BTW watch out for all these tail dragger types. They will use any excuse to get pilots to fly a tail dragger. They know fine that they will ruin your enjoyment of flying tri-wheel training aircraft, and start you down that slippery slope to becoming a PFA owner. With the resulting change to wearing cords and checked shirts and knowing what all the different grades of oil do. :) :ok:

MJ

[Windy Militant]

MJ
Oi I resemble that remark! What's with this grades of oil you mean there's more than straight 80?

acuba
Don't get disheartened we've all been through the "My brains still on the Crosswind leg but my planes on Finals and I can't catch up with it" Blues.

My instructor used many cunning ploys to get me through it. These included Flying a Circuit without looking in the office at all. If he caught me peeking he'd bat me round the head with his knee board. (No mean feat in a Terrorhawk)

It is possible to do this using only visual and audible clues. You know the attitudes. You know the sound of the engine and you can hear the airflow. If I can do it then so can you.

Another thing is if the circuit is really getting to you ask your instructor if you can do some general handling. There's nothing like batting round the sky chasing clouds to remind you why you wanted to do this in the first place.:ok:

[bencoulthard]

Don't beat yourself up Acuba, I suffer from this too, I promised my FI that I wouldn't use FS2004 but I have had a thought.

Guage failures after take off, FS lets you fail any guages at a specified time. What about failing them all 1 min after take off?

My instuctor covers the guages sometime but he didn't last lesson and I forced my eyes outside more.

The other option is put it on that full screen mode with no dash onscreen.

I dunno if these will help but my logic says it might.

Ben (eyes outside at all times) Coulthard

[Mad Girl]

My instructor used many cunning ploys to get me through it. These included Flying a Circuit without looking in the office at all. If he caught me peeking he'd bat me round the head with his knee board.

Oy!! My instructor flicks through these pages - stop giving him ideas - It's bad enough being nagged through the lesson without being physically abused as well!!!!

If it's any consolation, I only used FS2004 for 1 week, when I first started lessons and when I knew I was being taken from lesson 4 - 6 in one session - for reasons I won't go into.

I managed to get from takeoff to landing on FS2004 in a week and on my first flat session my instructor was dead impressed with what I could do in the real thing.
Only problem I had is in that short space of time I'd started obsessing on the instruments. Once he'd realised that I was using the attitude indicator to see if I was level (and various other little foibels!!) - Little circle discs of paper started being shoved on instuments - I don't look anymore.

To this day I'm still flying left wing down and can't hold attitude pictures in my head but still enjoy my flying (despite the constant nagging from him next to me) - ENJOY

[IO540]

Once he'd realised that I was using the attitude indicator to see if I was level (and various other little foibels!!) - Little circle discs of paper started being shoved on instuments

I'd like to know what exactly this stupid procedure achieves.

There is nothing wrong with keeping half an eye on the AI.

There are cases where you have to: flying towards a sloping horizon (e.g. a mountain/hill ridge) or flying between areas of high ground where there is either no natural horizon or the natural one is misleading. Not to mention the rather common poor vis/haze; today I flew 400nm in legal VFR conditions but there was no natural horizon up front. Only at FL070 could one see properly.

There is too much of this "sort the men from the sheep" mentality in this game. It's no wonder that the airfield scene is such a bunch of anoraks. Most normal intelligent people won't play ball with this WW2 "we beat the Germans this way, young man" attitude for much longer than the first lesson.

[Whirlybird]

IO540,

This has nothing to do with sorting men from sheep or anything similar. It's proving to students that in good VFR conditions they can fly without instruments, purely with reference to the outside world, and fly well. Certainly in helicopters, many don't believe it - and I know f/w pilots are the same. They chase the instruments, and fiddle about with the controls all over the place since the instruments lag, and if you can finally get them to look out the window and trust themselves, they find that it works and they CAN do it.

Of course there is a time and place for using the instruments, but not all the time, and to the exclusion of looking outside.

[mad_jock]

Windy it sounds like you haven't made the grade for inner circle of the PFA.

You have to make sure your checked shirt and cords clash.

Walk about the hanger with a bucket of oil after your latest change asking opinions on it's quality and if it could do another 10 hours.

When someone offers you some oil to look at. Take on a wine tasters look. Get your fingers in it, sniff it, taste it and drip it with light behind it.

And grow more facial hair.

Then you may be invited to a test season where you will have to be able to grade and age oil samples by feel, taste and smell. Then be able to remove and refit a factory hydralic press fit bush using only an old socket, a vice and the original fitting.

BTW this is all just tongue in cheek and I am just jealouse because thier knowledge and experence is learned the hard way and they deserve the title of Aviator. There is something very special about building your own plane, maintaining it and flying it.

IO540 I think you are a perfect candidate to become a SEP/MEP class rating instructor. Heaps of knowledge to give. A very broad experence base to draw on. And I think you would enjoy it as well. And I think that you might not improve as a pilot but you certainly would be a different pilot afterwards ;)


Please don't take this as a flame I have alot of time for your opinions on the whole subject of teaching flying and the current system (and GPS :p )

MJ

edited to remove smilie which wasn't what i wanted

[DFC]

IO540,

We do teach people to fly by numbers from the very start. If that was not he case with you then I can see where you have a problem.

However, there is no need to tell the student to remember that they need 6 degrees of nose up to perform a certain manoeuvre while maintaining a good lookout because they will probably turn round and ask;

"In this 6 degree nose up attitude, I see the horizon is the same place in the window as the compass. Would it not be simpler to just put the outside horizon beside the compass and keep the lookout going rather than looking inside and then outside constantly?"

As for flying with no horizon - utter tosh unlesss flying in IMC or at night or cross chanel beyond sight of land (hence the cross chanel checkout including instrument practice)

Once he'd realised that I was using the attitude indicator to see if I was level (and various other little foibels!!) - Little circle discs of paper started being shoved on instuments

I'd like to know what exactly this stupid procedure achieves.

In the ideal world, the basic trainer would only have an ASI, an Altimeter and a Compass. Then there would be no need to cover certain instruments.

You may have done limited panel during your "IR". Did you tell your instructor (or the examminer) that it was a rediculous practice?

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

MJ

Thank you for the back handed compliment ;) but if I was instructing I would not make enough to pay even 10% of my ex wife's maintenance costs :) I've never worked it out but I think she costs as much as a King Air.

Also I have zero ME time.

I like your comments about oil sampling :) I actually think one could make a good sitcom, based around some airfield and a flying school. There would certainly be enough utterly comical characters, plus tons of sexual harrassment of students, to play with. The stereotypes are so easy to define in this business.

DFC

Not sure where to start on yours, so I will pass this time.

[Whirlybird]

IO540,

I actually think one could make a good sitcom, based around some airfield and a flying school.

I've been thinking about writing just such a sitcom for years. When I stop spending all my time letting students try to find ever more interesting ways of killing me, and maybe you don't have to pay maintenance any more, wanna collaborate on a series? ;) :)

[mad_jock]

You could start with a Hotel Babylon style book on a bankholiday weekend life of a flying Instructor. Set in a grass field strip with a FISO with a rotary school next door.
Local STRUT group and a bit of controlled airspace nearby with a MATZ in the oppersite direction.

Only problem I could see is the huge legal bill of the multiple people who will recon that the characters where based on them. Then again it might be quite easy if 10 poeple recon the Basil Faulty CFI was a sladerous copy of themsleves.

Hang what do you mean sex harrasment of students. I am getting flashbacks.... and there Pink.
(Actually hows she getting on these days?)

[VNAVSPD]

I was an avid flight-simmer before I learned to fly, but my problem wasn't with needle chasing, but depth perception. I really struggled with judging distances and I always percieved something as being closer than it actually was. My instructor used to get so frustrated because I was always looking for my check-points miles ahead, when they were actually just under the nose.

I think this comes from the fact that MSFS uses a wider angle of view that that which is seen by the human eye (in order to fit more of the scene onto the monitor).

[IO540]

Whirlybird

It was actually my girlfriend's idea to do a sitcom. So any royalties will have to be shared with her :O

One problem is that a lot of the "in jokes" won't be understood by non-pilots. OK, everybody will get the one about the PA28 fuel valve being in the perfect place when the student is a woman in a short skirt, or the one about the flap lever.... and people do get to know each other rather well in a C150, like it or not.

But so much of the rest is quite specific, I think.

For example we might laugh when the instructor says (in front of a bunch of people waiting for a pleasure flight... OOPS I meant to say a "trial lesson" because a pleasure flight needs an AOC) that one plane has "gone tech" (a wonderful term for one bit too many having fallen off so not even the friendly JAR145 outfit next door will sign it off) so we have to use another one. But most punters wouldn't get it.

Same with the plane spotters, laboriously recording tail numbers and (if they can get close enough) airframe serial numbers, then going home and recording the stuff on some website...

Maintenance is not a problem; just means I can't move up ;)

[BEagle]

"(Actually, how's she getting on these days?)"

Pretty well, after a medical scare not so long ago.

[mad_jock]

Good to hear BEagle. tell her to send me a text.

IO you wouldn't even need to get that low in the humour deptment. You wouldn't even need to get off the gound.

The humour in the air would be for a select few but the ground humour would be never ending. A bit like The office. And to be honest you with all due respect don't have a clue about the cock ups and other upsets which go through your normal flying school ops room well away from the students .

edited for IO very good point

[IO540]

The question is whether this sort of p1sstaking expose would attract more punters into GA, or reduce their numbers below today's pitiful levels...

I don't doubt the other stuff MJ - I did hang around one school for a bit and saw enough going on.

[Whirlybird]

"In this 6 degree nose up attitude, I see the horizon is the same place in the window as the compass. Would it not be simpler to just put the outside horizon beside the compass and keep the lookout going rather than looking inside and then outside constantly

DFC,

Thank you for that. I used the idea yesterday. I had a trial lesson student who told me he'd be fine because he'd been practising on a helicopter simulator, and he thought he'd be a natural anyway, as he had really good coordination and drove a digger. Oh dear! And there we were with 15-20kt winds. Well, he'd find out.

So off we went, and I levelled off and told him about the cyclic, and how to note where the horizon cuts across the compass and the helicopter windscreen. "And I can use this too", he said happily, pointing to the AI. "No", I said. "Now, why would you want to? If I told you to keep alternating from looking outside, to looking at a tiny little instrument that lags so is difficult to read accurately, you'd soon work out that it corresponded to the outside world, and you could look outside all the time and enjoy the view to, wouldn't you?"

Well, he got the point, and flew very well considering the conditions. But within five minutes he was saying in amazement that it wasn't at all like his simulator, and much harder than a digger. Well, surprise, surprise! Anyway, he likes a challenge, and wants to do the course, so I'll be seeing a lot of him from the looks of things. So, DFC, thanks.

[mad_jock]

yep your right edited

[Gingerbread Man]

Don't know what you're flying, but in a 172 the struts for the wings will be parallel to the ground at 30 degrees angle of bank. Just a useful tip if you want to work on looking outside. It's probably the same for the C152 and the C182 as well.

Ginger ;)

[acuba 290]

i fly exactly 172