Mango - all you need to know about it (threads merged)

[Deskjocky]

Far as I know its all on course for the launch date, ads should appear in the media in a couple of weeks for crew.

[3rdBogey]

Sky-Gods...... 50% of the travelling domestic population? I'm pretty sure, pretty damned sure, if SAA were to be closed down SABENA style, the business section of South Africa would NOT be adversly affected, even in the short term! Comair, Nationwide, 1Time, Airlink, would be able to carry the "business" traveller quite successfully, thank you! Yes, the family visits and holiday makers would have a problem initially for a few weeks, WOW!
As for the long-haul, well, SA still has to grant foreign carriers the rights to operate to here, in reciprocation for an SA carrier going there, wherever that might be.
Nationwide have not stopped their Gatwick operation. I wander why????? According to the Sky-Gods, only they, SAA can "Do" long-haul. So Vernon must then be doing it solely for reasons other than making money! Not so???
The only valid argument about NOT closing SAA down that I've read on this site comes from a Sky-God saying something to the following tune: "Please don't be against us, you are only against us because you are not part of our party and are jealous of what we have. Remember, if SAA is closed down, none of you pilots out there will get our kind of operation, because no one will be able to operate long-haul successfully. So we all would lose, especially us here now!" (Sorry to tell you that you actually arn't making it VB, and London must be a complete fluke! No-where else would work, we can guarantee you)
Amazing how we are NOT against the companies like: Comair/Nationwide/ 1Time/Airlink etc. I wander why????
Another point in case. What is the percentage ratio of skin colour passengers that SAA carries? Is it representative of the SA population? Or is the "National Carrier" in existence to carry dominantly white skinned people around at the cost of a dominantly black population?? The black goverment of South Africa supporting a white passenger population???
Take away the Carrot of Voyager and tax subsidy (paid by people who most will NEVER see the inside of an SAA aeroplane), and you'll see a different story!

[FUG]

DeskJocky

Do you know if they are using the current management structures or are they going to set that all up from scratch?

[TooBadSoSad]

Very little new info on the LCC. SAA management claim to have signed confidentiality agreements so they are not telling the troops at SAA much. The SAA Chief Pilot recently wrote in his monthly flight operations report that the LCC would consider using SAA pilots if the SAA pilots union could come up with a way to meet the salary budget. The estimates are Captains at around R600k per year and FO's at R250k per year. These would be TCE salaries meaning that this is the total cost to the company. If you want to know what it is like to work at or for SAA then go and :ugh:

[boypilot]

Heard some guys got a phone call for employment at the SAA LCC yesterday.

From the surnames I heard, almost all of them has a Daddy at SAA....

Any of you guys wish to share your good news with us???

[TooBadSoSad]

There are quite a few retired SAA Captains running around SAA being trained on the B737-800, some as instructors. The SAA pilot group are worried because they feel that SAA will slowly replace the entire domestic operation with the LCC operation. The man in charge of the LCC pilot training, who is working out of the SAA HQ and is apparently on the SAA payroll, has been quoted as saying that the LCC will even operate to Mauritius. The current B737-800 fleet managers have also been quoted as saying that 17 of the current 21 B737-800 aircraft will be going to the LCC, at a rate of one a month after start-up. Salaries mentioned recently are R300,000 for FO's with no ATP (read CADETS), a little more for FO's with an ATP and R540,000 for Captains. This operation appears to be very incestuous and you can bet that there will be a lot of nepotism in the way pilots are hired.

[Beechdrivr]

Yeah, i have a cv ready but i know it's most likely going to be a really futile waste of time.... but i suppose i'll continue in my ignorant ways :rolleyes:
wishing and hoping!

Anyways, safe flying and good luck to those who do crack the nod!:ok:
BD

[Wild Business]

Firstly, the old sky gods had their time, give the new younger generation the opportunity now, always the same old story "I wanna top up my pension" their license should be torn up and them be placed in old age homes, okay maybe this is to harsh, why don't they just go and enjoy their retirement at their game farms/beach houses. Then the so-called ("untouchable, think that we better than any other airline") SAA is ever so unprofessional, send a mail to ask if one would be available for an interview, doesn't even have decency to reply back regarding the so-called interview, and then only to receive an e-mail (after the proposed interview date) to say that now someone else is dealing with interviews, best you rather contact them. Is this how they should start their new airline, is this how professionals handle interviews, looks like some sort of abortion to me to say the least. Seems to me that it it's the old SAA mentality. How is LCC gonna be any different to SAA, personally it won't survive. Go get them One time, Kulula/BA Comair and Nationwide.

[sticktime]

Have heard some guy's (1time, comair, and ce Capts) been told they are on the waiting list due to not having the 10 000 hour for command hours.
Just heard that a CE capt with way less has the nod for direct ent Capt ?
Is daddy SAA ? :ugh:

[iceglider]

HI... does anyone have any info on SAA going "low-cost" soon??.. I heard a strong rumour...

[Shrike200]

HI... does anyone have any info on SAA going "low-cost" soon??.. I heard a strong rumour...

Awww, the mods ruined my fun....iceglider, I made this just for you before your post was subsumed into the GIANT post regarding what you asked about.... ;)

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m305/Shrike200/pprunesearch.jpg

:ok:

[Round Engine]

DesckJocky, you've made a perfect summary in this thread of the LCC problem. It is not a simple matter, but it centres a lot around SAA's problems with obtaining sufficiently savvy persons to handle such an entity, methinks. A parastatal cancer, if you will. If one ever wanted to paint the damage such unionised labour could create - go and spend a day at SAA Technical. I would even go as far as to say that it is criminal to pay people that much for the amount of productivity that comes out on the other end. Good luck to SAA on the LCC, but I fear it must fail. SAA staff have no idea of how to run a business, and if they did, they wouldn't care.:bored:

[3rdBogey]

Seems to me the way you go about this is: You just do it!
1) The Chief Justice is "modern", and must necessarily be a 'player' in the goverment. So, we have an angle on the necessary court-case which will be forthcoming from 1-Time, Kulula and Nationwide.(Maybe combined force...)
2) The Minister, of transport, he also plays ball, so, the necessary certification etc will be forthcoming, albeit a few months late.
As for what concerns us pilots at the "non-god" level, we have a beautiful little plan going against us.
We finish up at SAA on the 600 at age 63---now. Then, we 'retire' and take up the left hand seat at LCC for the remaining two years of our poverty stricken profession. Then we may well still consult for a few more years too! Anything, as long as we can sell it to Jeff who pays the loot.
Now, if you happen to give up your job now, to fly right hand seat at LCC, in the hope of EVER getting command there......... you need to be very carefull!!
You give up a good job now, in the hope of left hand seat there eventually. And you still have to fly with these 'clever-stunts' out of SAA!!!!
Why do you think they have been at VB's place lately????? They are looking for "suitable" RHS pilots! Then when LCC starts, they have all their "right-type-of person" employed. Pity he will never see command! He's not from SAA!
I for one, hope Kulula/1-Time and Nationwide give Shack long carrots in court over this "Low Cost Carrier". I think I'll just run outside and puke!! Low cost...........my Backside!!!!
GIVE me the machines on a silver salver and I'll also start an airline that can make money!:yuk:

[iceglider]

Hi thanks the info mate... i should have put "SOON" in capital letters.. for very soon like in next week... 01/09/2006... aircraft already in for repaint...for low cost section... ha ha...with still a high cost structure...like SAA...

[Q4NVS]

Don't shoot the messenger, please...:eek:

According to today's Star (Business News):

Civiar CEO Andy Cluvar has been identified and appointed as the CEO of SAA's LCC due to start operations in November 2006.

I might be mistaken, but think that a while back there were quite a lot of nasty things said about this individual on Pprune...:oh:

Luckily, by the sounds of it, I do not know him at all :\

[madherb]

(C)heating (I)nsensitive (V)acant (A)varicious (I)ntense (R)ipoff = CIVAIR. What happened to the London flights? Just one example..........:yuk: But maybe the man has changed. Time will tell!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Are you sure it's SAA's LCC he's heading and not another attempt at his own airline?

[JetPark]

Andy Cluver appointed CEO of the (SAA) low cost carrier?

:mad: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[I.R.PIRATE]

....called TULCA.....the ultimate low cost airline

[GULF69]

What a joke!!!!!
Would love to see if he actually gets it off the ground!

69

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Oh, goodie!

More halfwitted managerial skullduggery for the taxpayer to fund.:{

If he's the best they could find the brain drain is having more effect than we first thought. Last to leave SA please blow out the candle....:hmm:

[beechbum]

Is the LCC set to fail? With Mr Cluver in charge it can only be on the path to destruction.
Read in today's Business Day that this clown is taking over the reigns.
Yeeeehaaa.....let the games begin!:D

[TooBadSoSad]

If you want info on the LCC then take R50 to the dept of transport in Pretoria and they will give you a copy of the AOC application for TULCA (PTY) LTD. It includes CV's of the major postholders of which the CEO's post is a Mr Bezuidenhout, not a Mr Cluver. All the major postholders are current or retired SAA employees.

[beechbum]

So maybe the press has got it wrong again.....in all 3 papers.
Anyway Mr Bezuidenhout AKA Mr Clever.....Mr Not so Clever and oh yes...Mr Cluver.
It wouldn't make sense for him to run I suppose since its a conflict of interest..kind of!!!!

[I.R.PIRATE]

I say give them a chance. They are entering a very competitve market, and as long as they are not going to undercut prices by operating below break even, then I think it good for the market, movement in the industry, and more jobs. Not necesarrily immediately,my guess is over a five year period,but a fluid hiring market means movement, and you all know what that means...:ok:

[ZERO3L]

I.R. PIRATE.
Your quote below is all very well. If undercutting prices was feasible, I would agree, but its not.
If this market was that easy, Comair/Kulula and 1time would also be operating the likes of 737-800's.Basically, if the new SAA LCC undercuts the rest, they will be doing exactly what SAA is doing right now-losing taxpayers money.
The yields in low cost operations are marginal to say the least- I cant see how they will make money with the 800's if the lease costs are what they are rumoured to be.
At the end of the day, if they do launch successfully (after the protests), something has to give........somewhere.And that wont be job creation-jobs will be lost, if you get my drift?
"I say give them a chance. They are entering a very competitve market, and as long as they are not going to undercut prices by operating below break even, then I think it good for the market, movement in the industry, and more jobs."

[I.R.PIRATE]

Spoke to one of the 'other' big players last week, and they are really not too preturbed by the new boys and actually believe that this is a good thing - As long as they (tulca) price above break even. Thats all that they fear.

[kingpost]

ZERO3L

The yields in low cost operations are marginal to say the least- I cant see how they will make money with the 800's if the lease costs are what they are rumoured to be.

Ryanair operate their 738's with the highest margins of any airline. An average airline operates on a return of 4.5 to 5% margin, Ryanair obtain 21% return. They are also the best paid short haul airline in Europe. In the US Southwest, another very successful LCC has the lowest turn over of personal that receive good money and they have the largest union representation of any US airline !!

It an be done if the seats are sold correctly, SAA domestic will start a slow death........:eek:

[JetPark]

I must agree with previous post. Perhaps I have not read this thread well enough but I fail to undertand how it can be acceptable that a State onwed Airline can launch a LCC? Of course they are going to operate below cost. The paln is to rid the domestic market of the competition. I see Court battles looming. Guess who is going to pay?:ugh:

[beechbum]

Kingpost. studies have been done by a certain LCC in SA with regards to
operating -800's and it revealed that due to the high Dollar based leasing costs and low SA yields, it s not feasable to operate such expensive machinery in the country.
Don't forget that Ryanairs' sole income does not come directly from filling the seats on an airliner. Mr O'leary has fingers in alot of pies and Ryanairs' income is supported by a few of these.He has stated in the past that passengers will in the future eventually travel for free as several airports/airports company will support the idea financially - i.e duty free, airport taxes etc. Makes for interesting reading........!!!!! Could never happen here though.....too many fingers in the tills.....let alone the pies!:ok:

[Deskjocky]

Reading the above posts, a lot of people were saying the same thing about market saturation when 1time started- and the market grew prodigiously after their entry. Can anyone really claim to know what the market can handle- I think not. What I do know is that the biggest inhibitor to domestic airline growth in the future in South Africa is ACSA- all the airlines suffer under their cartel.

[Deanw]

If you want info on the LCC then take R50 to the dept of transport in Pretoria and they will give you a copy of the AOC application for TULCA (PTY) LTD. It includes CV's of the major postholders of which the CEO's post is a Mr Bezuidenhout, not a Mr Cluver. All the major postholders are current or retired SAA employees.

Tulca (Pty) Ltd (reg no 2006/018129/07) was registered at CIPRO on 12 June 2006. The previous name was Rapicorp 74 (Pty) Ltd. The sole director, Nico Bezuidenhout, was appointed on 20 July 2006.

Registered address is:
Mezzanine Level
Domestic Department Terminal
Johannesburg International Airport
1627

Nico, who is only 30 years old, is Head of Direct Channels, South African Airways.

Prior to joining SAA 5-years ago, with a tertiary background in Industrial Psychology, Transport Economics and an MBA, Nico started South Africa’s first Internet-based event ticketing company where he served as Chief Operating Officer responsible for Marketing, Operations and Distribution. His further relevant professional experience includes ad-hoc consulting on distribution strategy and contact centre operations.

[ZERO3L]

Kingpost and Beechbum.

I note your point of view Kingpost but agree with Beechbums interpretation of the the different markets-the SA LCC animal is a different beast to the Ryanairs and Easyjets. Our pricing structure being Rand based puts us at a disadvantage and believe you me, the yields in SA are LOW!!!! There is no way in hell that a US$ based lease(with Rand weakening) can compete fairly unless the SAA LCC resorts to all out war, loses a few more billions and destroys the weaklings in the process.Scary stuff!

[JetPark]

Yes, you right, Deskjockey!!! Now don't get me started on ACSA - that's a WHOLE new thread potential and I'm not sure I have the energy for that with it being a Friday and all. As this is an Airline thread and not an Airport thread, best I stay away.

[Q4NVS]

Business Times 27th August 2006

Whole article about the SAA LCC.
Apparently they are registered as TULCA (Pty) Ltd but will operate as Mango.com (with their aircraft painted in Orange livery aka EasyJet style..)

It is just strange that Mango.com already exists on the web as a Clothing Company...:=

Did however hear from another source that indeed 4 737-800's are being painted in Orange at SAA Paintshop.

In the article Nationwide also admits that it has become the Employment "Agency" for the LCC FO's while Captain's were all retired ex SAA Captains.

Apparently they are planning to do 26 return flights a day starting from the 1st October 2006.

Destinations: Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and Bloemfontein.

Now I wonder whether the next batch of Nationwide FO's will also have to pay for their ratings with VB - If you ask me, it will be Yes + 5 year contract... :mad:

[Shrike200]

....and a compulsory 6 month notice period in the contract (it already stands at a ludicrous 3 month period).


Bloemfontein?!? Does that suit the high volumes needed for a LCC? Seems odd to me....

[Deskjocky]

I’ve heard of this 3 month notice period story- that amounts to an unfair labour practice. Regardless-if I was getting shafted like that and I had an opportunity to move on I would give one month notice, settle my bond- assuming I hadent paid for my rating myself:yuk: , and move on. If old VB wanted to take it further then I would feel quite comfortable putting myself in the judicial system’s hands. Im quite sure that a case could be made for CE exploiting its crew. Frankly, even if I lost- paying back the 2 months salary (especially at their poor salary scales:mad: ) is a small price to pay for getting into an operation that offers half way decent career progression opportunities.

[ERASER]

Dear all

Just an update on the "orange" B737. In actual fact the B737-300 in orange is the first B737-300 pax a/c converted into a freighter a/c by SAA Technical. This is for TNT BRU (OO-TSI).
The B737-800 currently being painted as a SAA logo jet for a new product to be introduced shortly.

Thanx

E

[George Tower]

Deskjocky,

I note your comment re 1Time's entry to the market: However it is just the scale of things that causes me to raise an eyebrow.

Can you confirm that SAA will not reduce its domestic capacity?

If the projections are for 14 aircraft with +/- 1-2 years that is an awful lot of extra capacity.

Now if we assume that TULCA is only domestic - surely it won't be able to fly regional due to BASA restrictions, then TULCA's success can only come if pax migrate to it from other carriers. Which is all well and good in a free market but when a technically insolvent state owned company launches a new business such as this designed to under cut competition, the court cases will follow I'm sure.

My other observation is regarding the branding of SAA, arguably one of SA's strongest brands, there seems to have been a total lack of care taken in recent years about this....sad but I guess that's politics, but surely however TULCA will further weaken/dilute this?

Are you able to tell us whether the aim of TULCA is that it is sold off as a seperate entity one day......and what initial capitalisation of TULCA is?

Rgds

GT

[PAXboy]

George TowerCan you confirm that SAA will not reduce its domestic capacity?Surely, the whole plan would be for SAA to move the vast majority of it's domestic capacity to the LCC?

Shift the a/c off the SAA register
Shift the staff off to new contracts, so as to duck out from long term pensions and other costs
Duplicate large parts of management and so provide more jobs for the boys and as a job creation scheme in general (make the ZA economy seem better)
Provide shed loads of jobs for consultants across the next few years, many of whom are retired buddies (because they know the market :rolleyes: )
The above will improve the balance sheet of SAA, either to privatise or simply to make it look like an economically well managed company
Even if none of that happens and market forces destroy the dream, they will have appeared to be taking strong steps and trying new (ie old) things


Personally, I think that this is all about old style central govt thinking. I have said very early on in this thread that the ZA govt and SAA are ten years behind the thinking and you only have to look around the world to see how these operations succeed and/or fail.

I suspect (and fear) that this process will provide jobs for all the older boys and the younger ones will lose. The younger FOs in mainline are seeing their future trashed. They can join the LCC and lose money and seniority, or stay in mainline ... for what? The a/c they were going to fly are now in LCC. :ugh:

Lastly: the consultants and the banks will, of course, make a mint.

[Deskjocky]

GT, confirmed- no reduction in short haul capacity for the Northern Summer timetable- due October 29.

[grjplanes]

It's a bit hard to believe the routings, especially Bloemfontein. I even get the idea that 1Time isn't doing that well on the route. This morning I flew CE JNB to GRJ, checked in next to where 1T check-in was for Bloem, and only saw 2 people checking in around 50mins before the flight, then it also departed just before us, being about 5mins early and operated with ZS-ANX?
Would think that Tulca would rather first start to PLZ or GRJ before going to Bloem at a later stage, especially before the summer holidays...?

[I.R.PIRATE]

Why does it need to be another XXXX.com name, how truly purile and unimaginative. Why mango? Cause its run by monkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeys.

[kingpost]

The younger FOs in mainline are seeing their future trashed. They can join the LCC and lose money and seniority, or stay in mainline ... for what?


For the sake of their future, this is business not a charity. You have overpaid FO's earning what LCC captians earn, simple economics. You guys have to wake up to it sometime and face reality, the domestic future of SAA is limited - make a move before it's too late.

[reptile]

....... make a move before it's too late.

SAA is a classical legacy carrier - propped up by the the SA taxpayers. It will never be too late. (unless, as a pale face, you want command).

[kingpost]

SAA is a classical legacy carrier - propped up by the the SA taxpayers. It will never be too late


That's what they said at PanAm, Sabena, Swis Air, Ansett, Ansett New Zealand, Canada 3000 & Varig - they always thought someone would make a plan, they did, they pulled the plug !!

[ZERO3L]

South Africa: Monday Comment - Just Who Will Pay the Price If Lemon Airways' Mango Goes Pear Shaped?
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Business Day (Johannesburg)
COLUMN
August 28, 2006
Posted to the web August 28, 2006
Rob Rose
Johannesburg
MANY people believe South African Airways (SAA) is something of a lemon, so just how wise is it that the airline is steadying itself to launch its own low-cost airline, evidently to be labelled Mango?
A fruity decision indeed, and if it doesn't work one hopes those involved will get the sack. If you were to believe SAA's rivals, you might as well pre-empt the excuses, and sack them now.
The problem is SAA is hoping to regain market share through this low-cost airline. But with a cost structure that is bulkier than that of Comair's kulula.com, 1time or Nationwide, will SAA be able to undercut its rivals?
Already Nationwide, kulula and 1time have lodged objections to SAA's licence application -- complaints that will be heard on September 23.
This week, 1time will meet with the Competition Commission to lobby it to intervene. Comair will soon do the same.
"We don't believe that SAA will be able to launch this low-cost airline without subsidising it," says 1time CEO Glen Orsmond.
"We would be happy to take them on if they were displaying their true costs but if SAA subsidises this low-cost airline simply to regain market share from us, this is not in the interests of true competition," he says.
This is the crux: there is concern that SAA will simply pump as much money as it takes (ultimately cash from taxpayers) into Mango to rub out rivals.
Once these rivals collapse, the fear is SAA will simply shut its low-cost airline, claiming it "wasn't making money", before jacking up fares again.
Without any subsidy and in the context of its bloated overheads and infrastructure, this Mango will certainly struggle to match the ticket prices of kulula and 1time.
For example, 1Time and kulula use MD82 aircraft but SAA is reputed to be set to lease a number of 737-800s for Mango. While 1time values its MD82s at about $4,5m apiece, the 737-800s are more in the region of $45m.
So, if 1time's annual insurance bill is $7m, then SAA's low-cost airline could face an insurance tab of about $70m a year.
Then there are the overheads. SAA's last annual report showed that by March last year, the state-owned airline had 73 aircraft and 11601 employees. Comair's annual report showed that by June last year, it had 22 aircraft and 1738 employees. So SAA has 158 employees per aircraft, double the manpower that Comair uses (79 per aircraft).
SAA is also far from financially fit in its "normal" ticket business.
As this column noted in July, not only did SAA scrape a R65m profit for the year to March after impressive tinkering, there are also questions about its solvency.
Not only does SAA's R8,2bn in short-term liabilities dwarf its R5,2bn in short-term assets, but it has also mysteriously reported a R6,1bn loan as "capital" rather than a "liability".
Relevant Links
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If SAA is not prospering in a "normal market", how does it plan to succeed in the more cutthroat low-cost environment?
Given that government has been called on to provide taxpayers' money to rescue SAA before, there will be nasty recriminations if taxpayers' cash is called on once more for a strategy that was ill-advised in the first place.
If SAA's Mango goes pear shaped, fingers will be pointed firmly at government for not speaking up earlier.
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[Q4NVS]

Well, if looking at SAA's latest Paint Job on 737-800 ZS-SJS, advertising the newly launched Voyager Credit Cards, we could be in for some interesting Paint Schemes (logo's) when the LCC is launched (I hope...)

Must say, it looks like a job well done and from a Marketing perspective it certainly hits the spot! :cool:

[Q4NVS]

www.flymango.co.za :ouch:

The domain has been registered to SAA and the site is currently under construction

(According to Traderpage etc.)

[BARMAN]

Whats the latest news on Mango ! Anybody have starting dates ?:rolleyes:

[Globaliser]

From this week's Flight International (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/09/19/209055/Comair+eyes+SAX+for+budget+carrier.html):-DATE:19/09/06

Comair eyes SAX for budget carrier
By Brendan Sobie

Airline considers buy or lease for Kulula expansion

South Africa's Comair is considering either acquiring South African Express (SAX) or hiring another regional carrier to operate a new fleet of turboprops for its budget operation Kulula.

...

[George Tower]

This would be a big move on the part of Comair and the govt if it was to happen.

Loco ops with turbo props do have a good precident with Flybe in the Uk using the Q400. Be interested to know what Kulula has planned for turboprop ops.

Presumably the CRJs would go???

What would SAA's position be - surely they wouldn't like to see their feeder sold off to the competition.

On a similar note whats the latest re SA Airlink the SAA "alliance"? I seem to recall the "marriage" was to last another year and that was about a year ago so what the latest?

[Deskjocky]

Things are fine and dandy between LINK and SAA-expecting that to be the status quo for a long time to come.

Comair are also looking to buy BP- which they wont- they will not buy SAX either. Their strategy is always to show a very keen interest- right up to the point of doing a due diligence. Once they have all the inside gen they put in a ridiculous bid and walk away with all the info. Bottom line is that ol uncle Dave is just too tight to splash the cash! Its just a grand info gathering exercise.

SAA worried of SAX being sold- not at all, they are in the same position as Link are in- as most of their core business is corporate, an inordinate amount of their regular traffic are voyager members- a database they do not own- SAA does. Considering 90% of their profit comes from 2 routes, its not a far stretch to imagine SAA making a plan there (SAA also does all the revenue accounting) so probably not an opportunity any sane airline would make in a hurry.

Comair also got out of turboprops in the late 90’s in a deal where they sold all of their route rights to SAX (for GBE and SZK)– effectively ensuring a revenue stream for the following 5 years with no operational outlay- clever chaps! I believe that deal came to an end recently so perhaps they want to make sure they weren’t crooked along the way!!:} :} Nothing like a bit of post deal confirmation!! These guys will try anything!..you gotta love it!:suspect: :suspect:

[Q4NVS]

Comair are also looking to buy BP- which they wont- they will not buy SAX either.

Don't think they can "afford" to buy SAX. Especially considering that in the last Financial Year SAX made almost double the Operating Profit that Comair did and that being on a turnover of just over R1 Billion versus R2+ Billion for Comair... They are just "Fishing" :ooh:

Considering 90% of their profit comes from 2 routes

Now which 2 routes would that be, as I am still to see a SAX route that is not bursting out of it seems - At the moment, they could pretty much put a Q400 on all of their routes if they had the aircraft...:p

[whiskeyflyer]

anybody know the latest about when MANGO (or whatever SAA will call its low cost carrier) starting

[Cirrus SR22]

Enterprise Name: TULCA (PTY) LTD
Enterprise Number: 2006/018129/07
Enterprise Type: Private Company Last Type Date: 2006.06.12
Enterprise Status: Code 03 - In Business
Registration Date: 2006.06.12
Date Commenced: 2006.06.12
Industry Code: Code 65 - No Description
Tax Number: 9499780154
Year End: February
Effective Date: 2006.06.12
Authorised Capital: 1000 Authorised Shares: 1000
Issued Capital: 120 Issued Shares: 120
Registered Address: MEZZANINE LEVEL, DOMESTIC DEPARTMENT TERMINAL, JOHANNESBURG INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, 1627
Postal Address: MEZZANINE LEVEL, DOMESTIC DEPARTMENT TERMINAL, JOHANNESBURG INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, 1627
Director Name: NICO BEZUIDENHOUT
Director Type: Director Date Appointed: 2006.07.20
Director Status: Active Last Status Date:
ID Number: 7608105247087 ID Number Status: VALID (not verified)
Director Share: 0.00 % Birth Date: 1976.08.10
CM 29 Date: 2006.07.20 CM 29 Received:
CK 1-2 Date:
Business Address: MEZZANINE LEVEL,, DOMESTIC DEPARTURE TERMINAL,
JOHANNESBURG INTERNATIONAL, AIRPORT, 1627
Postal Address: 11 CHILVERS ROAD, MORNING HILL, JOHANNESBURG, 2000
Residential Addr: 11 CHILVERS ROAD, MORNING HILL, JOHANNESBURG, 2000
Private Company details published electronically by CIPRO during August 2006
Director details published electronically by CIPRO during July 2006
Financial details published electronically by CIPRO during August 2006
Address details published electronically by CIPRO during August 2006

[reptile]

Mango.............:{

[Cirrus SR22]

Enterprise Number: 1998/002995/07
Enterprise Name: TICKETWEB (PTY) LTD
Full Names: NICO BEZUIDENHOUT
ID Number: 7608105247087
Director Type: Director Date Appointed: 2000.10.10
Director Status: Active Last Status Date:
Director Share: 0.00 % Birth Date: 1976.08.10
CM 29 Date: CM 29 Received:
CK 1-2 Date:
Business Address: 6TH FLOOR, EARLGO BUILDING, PARK STREET,
GARDENS, 8001
Postal Address: P O BOX 16580, VLAEBERG, 8018
Residential Addr: 9 DANKS COURT, ALBERT ROAD, TAMBOERSKLOOF, 8001

Enterprise Number: 1998/008344/07
Enterprise Name: AFRICAN CONCESSION MANAGEMENT (PTY) LTD
Full Names: NICO BEZUIDENHOUT
ID Number: 7608105247087
Director Type: Director Date Appointed: 1998.07.14
Director Status: Active Last Status Date: 1998.07.14
Director Share: 0.00 % Birth Date: 1976.08.10
CM 29 Date: 1999.02.18 CM 29 Received: 1999.02.23
CK 1-2 Date:
Postal Address: 9 DANKS COURT, ALBERS ROAD, TAMBOERSKLOOF, 8001

Enterprise Number: 2005/018494/23
Enterprise Name: SOMCA 71 CC
Full Names: NICO BEZUIDENHOUT
ID Number: 7608105247087
Member Type: Member Date Appointed: 2006.05.30
Member Status: Active Last Status Date:
Member Share: 33.00 % Birth Date: 1976.08.10
CM 29 Date: CM 29 Received: 2006.05.30
CK 1-2 Date:
Business Address:
Postal Address: P.O. BOX 1857, EADENVALE, 1620
Residential Addr: 11 CHIVERS ROAD, MORNING HILL, BEDFORDVIEW, 2017

Enterprise Number: 2006/018129/07
Enterprise Name: TULCA (PTY) LTD
Full Names: NICO BEZUIDENHOUT
ID Number: 7608105247087
Director Type: Director Date Appointed: 2006.07.20
Director Status: Active Last Status Date:
Director Share: 0.00 % Birth Date: 1976.08.10
CM 29 Date: 2006.07.20 CM 29 Received:
CK 1-2 Date:
Business Address: MEZZANINE LEVEL,, DOMESTIC DEPARTURE TERMINAL,
JOHANNESBURG INTERNATIONAL, AIRPORT, 1627
Postal Address: 11 CHILVERS ROAD, MORNING HILL, JOHANNESBURG, 2017
Residential Addre: 11 CHILVERS ROAD, MORNING HILL, JOHANNESBURG, 2017

[Ketek400]

New low cost carriers in South Africa. Wholly owned by South African Airways. Starts flying in November 2006. Boeing 737-800''s.

[Deskjocky]

Very soon- they committed to being up and running for the domestic high season and that looks like that will be no problem-most of the ground staff have completed their training and are currently involved in user acceptance testing for their CRS and DCS components. Last chatted with the Chief Pilot a week or two ago and he told me the first group had finished all their sim training. Licence has been approved (subject to one or two paperwork issues) and no competition commission issues so all is set for the launch- on budget and within the timeframe the guys committed to- nice work guys!!

I’ve never been a fan of fancy paint jobs- I’m more a traditionalist when it comes to livery- but this orange thing is starting to grow on me!

[Q4NVS]

Dunno if it has been mentioned b4, bt who is the Chief Pilot then..?

Is it some1 who was transferred from SAA, or yet another "dragged" out of retirement? :ooh:

Wrt the crew that has already been trained - Where did they come from, as I was told that even SAFAIR 737 crews were poached... Surely they can't be from Nationwide, as I have to assume that these guys are still trying to work off their 3 month Notice Periods...:=

Next crews from Nationwide then I guess - Heard of some1 starting at Nationwide within the next week (Assume he is 1 of the "replacements")

:ok:

[JetPark]

Colleagues, a while back in the thread/s, it was noted that Civair's Mr. Andy Cluver had been appointed CEO of the LCC. The reocrd was put straight indicating this not to be the case, but a Mr. Nico Bezuidenhout. Does anyone know what the "real" story is behind this particular rumour?

[Deskjocky]

Q4NVS, I don’t think its fair to name people in an open forum therefore I will refrain from doing so- if you really want to know ask any SAA pilot as its not really a secret as to who he is. In terms of background he did work for SAA and has spent the last few years flying overseas before being recruited for this project. The reason it’s a person form outside the organisation is because an undertaking was given not to use any SAA resources for the LCC and this is in line with that. There is a very small team going across from SAA to form the nucleus of the management structure- all of them have resigned from the airline as a prerequisite for joining the LCC. Further more almost all of the frontline staff have been recruited outside of SAA. Any resources that were made available to the project team from an SAA perspective are in the process of being withdrawn as they have their license now so its up to them from here to make it happen.

There were quite a few guys form CE that I saw on the list- none of them as far as I know had the 3 month clause- seems there is quite a mixed bag in terms of contracts over there. Yes there were also guys from SAFAIR who also joined. Again form what I was told 737 experience (obviously not on 800’s and there were a few who had no experience on 737’s at all) and availability were key drivers in the selection of the first group. Going forward time is going to be built in to allow for prospective applicants who have to serve a notice period at their particular employers and the 737 experience factor will not be as high.

[Q4NVS]

Your point is understood and thanks 4 the insight - Makes 4 interesting reading...

:ok:

[FUG]

Have heard from a few sources now that the sales should open Monday 16 October. Operations are apparently due to start 16 November.

Their offices at JIA are being worked on at the moment, painted a very bright orange. Sunglasses are called for.

[Deskjocky]

FUG, where you been?? you hear right! phone lines being tested as we speak, call centre opens next week at a suitably nondescript location somewhere in Joburg:suspect: , ops and head office located at JIA.

Sunglasses a prerequisite I’m afraid!:}

[FUG]

DJ, you mean that their call centre is not based there as well? Got us all confused - stories of over 70 PC's being installed in that office and a further 40 odd in the office at the OVAL in CPT? If there is a call centre in addition to that its a large staff number.

Surely ACSA's ridiculous rentals at JIA make it a bit expensive to operate out of there.

[JetPark]

Hmmm, not r e e a a a l l y a LCC as we know it, so overhead not that important you see :rolleyes:

[Deskjocky]

Ha ha! suppose nothing remains quite in this place for long!:D

JP, suppose the proof will be in the performance hey? so settle down and wait and see:ok:

[JetPark]

Of course Dj - will do - just stirring a little :)

[Q4NVS]

Me thinks it might just be a success - I'd say "Silently Confident" describes my mood...:ouch:

Personally can't wait 2 c those Orange 800's peel off 03L now!

:ok:

[George Tower]

All this talk of a low cost airline with bright orange aircraft.....not exactly original thinking as our northern hemisphere readers will know.:8 gotta luv it;)

[Parrot]

Orange is an interesting colour for SA.

Ever since the demise of the old South African flag, advertisers and marketeers have been very reluctant to use orange because of legacy connections to the old flag. I have not seen the colours but I would expect that they are going to be ORANGE ...with some black & white.

Can you imagine the outcry if they were Orange, White and Blue !!!:=

[Fat A1bert]

all very interesting...

perhaps a ploy by the 'ultimate' LCC to laugh in the face of the others in SA, imitating the example set by arguably the world's most successful LCC.

Whatever it is...its got us talking so its worked.

[vagabond 47]

It may come as a surprise to a lot of people that a number of well qualified TRE/TRI/CHECK Captains with 0000,s hours on type B738) have applied for the above positions, and being RSA Licensed ,residence/nationals have still had no responses from the LCC Operator.
It would make rather interesting reading in the local "Rags" why Nepotism still rules in the ex saa system with the depth of off shore experience trying to relocate back to the "mother country", the company employing
still imagines 5000hrs on a B727 is preferable to 5000 hrs on a B738........the quoted hours are mine and I am type short of others I know.Original SAA crews were doing there types in Seattle when I was there.
Whilst I endorse local support I am at a loss as to why the company should delay Start-Up because they are training NO-EXPERIENCE TRAINING CAPTS on B738 when a depth of experience equivalent or better.....(LVP OPS trained) are avaiable in the open market.

[SIC]

Well well well - if the new LCC is corrupt in its hiring practices then I guess its just the way its always been in certain circles...

But if on top of that it is so corrupt that it isnt hiring the old guard ( ex SAA boys who retired with millions, ex SAA boys who went overseas and did'nt like it, Current and ex SAA boy's kids etc - all with LVP training no less) then GREAT.
Its high time the corrupt baantjie vir boetie system starts hiring the guys who did their time in clapped out 727's in Africa, clapped out 737-200's at NTW and clapped out Lear24's at FALA !!!!!

[vagabond 47]

Well well well - if the new LCC is corrupt in its hiring practices then I guess its just the way its always been in certain circles...


Its high time the corrupt baantjie vir boetie system starts hiring the guys who did their time in clapped out 727's in Africa, clapped out 737-200's at NTW and clapped out Lear24's at FALA !!!!!

"SIC"..........Thats exactly what I am talking about...nothing to do with ex SAA crew.

[springbok702]

just been confirmed that Andy Cluver who was supposed to be appointed Ceo and was awaiting confirmation from the board was given his marching orders this morning.

[JetPark]

So somoeone is awake at least!! Was wondering about that. Now there is a chance for the LCC ;)

[Fat A1bert]

kinda got sacked before he was appointed, ouch...dats gotta hurt. ah well!

[Deskjocky]

They will definitely look back and thank themselves for making that decision – no question!!

[whiskeyflyer]

Today on
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&art_id=qw1161178561455B211&click_id=420&set_id=14&em=159661a6a20061019at

By Richard Davies

South African Airways will launch its new low-cost carrier Tulca next month to gain a share of the fast-growing budget-travel market, MPs heard on Wednesday.

"Passengers want no-frills and low-cost, and... we have to respond to what passengers want," SAA CEO Khaya Ngqula told members of Parliament's public enterprises portfolio committee.

Over the past three years, low-cost carriers had captured half the airline passenger market.

Ngqula said Tulca, a wholly SAA-owned subsidiary, was ready to go, and "most of the approval" for the new low-cost carrier had been obtained from the authorities.

It would take to the skies "by the middle of next month".

Domestically, SAA would then focus its attention on business passengers, "people who want a better service than a low-cost carrier can offer".

The airline was also talking to potential partners in Africa, including Ghana and Nigeria.

Internationally, SAA was looking to realise more benefits from its new membership of the international airline network, Star Alliance.

"It's a new world for us. From the 43 destinations we covered as an airline, now our passengers can go to more than 900 destinations," Ngqula said.

Earlier in the briefing, SAA chief financial officer Gareth Griffiths said SAA's profits had dropped by 90 percent over the past financial year, from R648-million in 2004/05, to R65-million in 2005/06.

The airline's high fuel bill - fuel costs had shot up by 51,5 percent over this period - had pushed up operating costs.

Other costs had increased by 5,5 percent, and while this figure appeared low, it had to be realised competitors around the world were showing negative growth costs.

Speaking to Sapa later on Wednesday, SAA corporate communications head Jacqui O'Sullivan said Tulca would be officially launched on October 30.

Asked what share of the low-cost carrier market Tulca aimed to grab, she declined to put a figure on the subsidiaries business objectives, saying only that start up costs were "relatively small" and mainly involved the leasing of aircraft and a small project team.

Tulca would have a completely separate identity from SAA, including its own board, executive committee and marketing company. However, it would share maintenance facilities with SAA. - Sapa

[journeyman]

The SAA CEO is quoted as saying that domestically, Tulca will take care of the low-cost segment and SAA the business segment of the market. Makes sense.

No prizes for guessing who the majority of passengers are going to fly with. Hence a rapid expansion of the low cost and a shrinking of SAA domestic. It's already happened in most of Europe, the US, India and is happening in Australia. SA will be no exception.

I particularly like the Indian example. Air India, a heavily unionised, well paying, government-funded airline has seen almost no expansion for many, many years, while its low-cost competitors like Jet, Sahara and Kingfisher are growing rapidly and grabbing a bigger market share. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

[Deskjocky]

On TNW this morning


Interesting spin on the events- although in reality it was more like an episode of the Apprentice….Andy your fired!!:D :D :D :D :D

Guess that’s what happens when you are more concerned about what your office furniture is going to look like than running an airline...:hmm:



Cluver’s out – who’s in?

ANDY Cluver, ceo of Civair, has told TNN that he will not be taking up a position at SAA’s low-cost carrier, flymango.co.za. He said he had been considering a position (rumoured to be that of ceo) at the low-cost start-up but decided not to pursue it due to personal reasons.

Lucy Siebert
([email protected])

lucycluverandy

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Saw one of (only?) Civair's beat up old bakkies at FAWB a few days back. Are they flying again?

[ERASER]

Personally can't wait 2 c those Orange 800's peel off 03L now!

:ok:

The wait will be over soon, the first B737-800 (ZS-SJG) is currently being painted in Hanger 8(s), SAA Technical...........orange....orange...and orange and some more orange!!! ;) ;)

E

[JetPark]

S R T, I think that his air charter & helicopter service have continued to operate, it was only the 747 service to Stanstead that never got off the ground, though a few folk got hurt in the process. The operation has survived for more than 10 years now - quite amazing when you look at it. The hangar in Cape Town - or rickety old warehouse as a better description - has a Beech Baron in it I think. Waterfront operation at the V&A is still active.

[Q4NVS]

SAA's new budget airline gets Wiese as its chairman

By Samantha Enslin

Durban - The board of Tulca, SAA's new low-cost airline, which will be operating next month, will include top businessman Christo Wiese, the chairman of Shoprite Holdings, as the non-executive chairman.

Jakes Gerwel, SAA's chairman, announced Tulca's board yesterday. It also includes Herman Mashaba, the founder of hair care business Black Like Me; Petra Krusche, an attorney and specialist in competition law; and Rashid Ahmed Wally, Lenovo International's general manager for south and central Africa. Gerwel will also sit on Tulca's board.

Mashaba is also the chairman of Stocks Building Africa and is on the board of Edgars Consolidated Stores.

Krusche has advised and represented numerous multi-nationals and listed companies on competition law.

At the beginning of this month, Tulca was given the go-ahead by the Air Service Licensing Council despite the objections of other low-cost carriers. Nationwide and 1Time objected to Tulca getting a licence, saying government-owned SAA could subsidise the low-cost carrier. The licensing council said this would be closely monitored.

In its results presentation for the year to March, SAA said it had lost market share to low-cost carriers. The airline transported 7.2 million passengers, 4.5 percent higher than the year before. Passenger revenue was flat at R13 billion.

Details of the new airline's operations will be released on Monday, when the chief executive will also be announced.

Earlier this week, public enterprises minister Alec Erwin mandated SAA's new board members to maximise the airline's profitability.

The new board members include Francine-Ann du Plessis, an advocate and chartered accountant; Jürgen Schrempp, a former chief executive of DaimlerChrysler and a member of the presidential investment committee; Nkosana Moyo, a pilot and managing director Actis Capital; and Koosum Kalyan, an adviser to the UK prime minister's Commission for Africa.

Also appointed to SAA's board are Billy Modise, who was South Africa's high commissioner in Canada until 1999 and was the chief of protocol in the foreign affairs department; and Margie Whitehouse, who has experience in building African brands. These appointments are for three years.

Now IMHO, Mr. Wiese is a Business Man of note!

[putt for dough]

And the fatcats get richer .....

[Rotates Lowly]

Is it not amazing how the only HIGH operating cost (state-owned) airline in the country can "afford" to start a low cost airline using state-of-the-art new aircraft, while the others limp along barely making marginal profits with outdated aircraft? What a country!!

[GormanInkarnati]

Jealosy makes you nasty...:=

[FUG]

Jhb to CT for R200 on Mango
30/10/2006 13:36
Johannesburg - Aircraft flights between Johannesburg and Cape Town will cost roughly R200 until the end of December onboard South Africa's new domestic airline, Mango, it was announced in Johannesburg on Monday.
Prices were expected to rise by only 20% in the new year, said Mango's newly appointed chief executive officer Nico Bezuidenhout.
The airline, operated as a subsidiary of South African Airways, only has two aircraft, but hopes to be operating two more by December.
It is aiming to fly between Johannesburg and Cape Town 28 times a day by December with flights also planned between Durban and Bloemfontein, and Bloemfontein and Cape Town in the future.
A "true" low-cost carrier, Mango would provide a travel opportunity for many of those South Africans who had never flown before, Bezuidenhout said.
Just out in the press.

Quite keen to seen 2 (or even 4) aircraft do 28 flights between JNB and CPT in 1 day.

[Deskjocky]

Fug, its 28 sectors, ie 2 aircraft doing 7 rotations per day.
With their utilization of 4 aircraft they will have 15% of the available capacity in the domestic market by December.

[T Hairy Henry]

28 sectors at day between JNB & CPT with 4 a/c!! I doubt that would leave any room for any BFN routes. Even if each a/c did 3 rotations it would mean a utilisation figure of around 13 hours.

What kind of turn times are they planning for?

[putt for dough]

Here we go boys and girls.....





SAA's Mango to charge R200

Mon, 30 Oct 2006
Flights between Johannesburg and Cape Town will cost about R200 until the end of December onboard South Africa's new domestic airline, Mango, it was announced in Johannesburg on Monday.

"We are getting South Africans to travel," said Mango's newly-appointed chief executive officer Nico Bezuidenhout.

He said online ticket bookings would open at midnight on www.flymango.com and telephone bookings at 5.30am on Tuesday on 08611-MANGO.

The airline's first flight would be on November 15.

Lower than market

Bezuidenhout expected ticket prices later on to remain 20 percent lower than anything else on the market.

Mango was also looking at creative ways for people to pay for tickets — including via retail clothing or food companies. Those details would be made known in a few weeks.

He said the airline was leasing two Boeing 737 800s from South African Airways at the moment.

Its fleet would expand to four aircraft by December, when the carrier hoped to be operating 28 flights a day between Johannesburg and Cape Town.

It planned to extend its service to flights between Durban and Bloemfontein, and Bloemfontein and Cape Town by later next year.

"If consumer demand exists, we will expand these routes," said Bezuidenhout, who brings to the operating his ticketing experience gleaned at SAA, as Chief Operating Officer at Ticketweb, and as a director of Africa Concession Management.

Carrying more passengers

He said Mango's aircraft would put in 12-and-a-half hours flying time a day, carrying 186 passengers at a time — substantially more than its competitors.

They have cried foul, complaining that Mango — run by a subsidiary of SAA — is unfair competition and that SA Express is supposed to be SAA's low-cost carrier.

However, Mango's new board stressed that it complied with competition regulations and questioned detractors' "motivation".

Mango would provide a travel opportunity for many South Africans who had never flown before, Bezuidenhout said.

He said that even though the aircraft would be putting in long hours, they were "new generation"; safe and reliable.

They would be flown by pilots with on average 15 years' experience and maintained by SAA's technical services.

"At no point in time will (we) compromise safety," he said.

Lease agreement with SAA

Although the high flying times would contribute to cost savings, Mango would be so much cheaper primarily because the aircraft being used were ten percent more fuel efficient that the others in use and because of the higher seat density.

Snacks and drinks would be for sale on board and excess baggage, billable.

Bezuidenhout would not go into detail about Mango's lease agreement with SAA, but said it was based on "market rates", as was the provision of technical services.

He said Mango was an independent company. The extent of SAA's involvement was a R100-million shareholders' loan.

Sapa

[Q4NVS]

No wonder the Low Cost Carriers are especially worried about Mango and the REAL threat that it brings. :D

The reason: The 2 so-called Low Cost Carriers in SA are not really that...:{

In general it seems that they are only good at marketing themselves as LCC's, while IMHO they are actually just ripping off the customers. :{

A quick search for specific dates Jnb to/from Cpt (return) proves my point:

Mango: R 338 LCC
SAA: R 730 Main Line Operator
1Time: R 1158 LCC
Nationwide: R 1294 Main Line Operator
Kulula.com: R 1358 LCC

Just wonder who should be reporting who to the Competitions Commission for "misleading" advertising...:oh:

Mango-Mango!
:ok:

[George Tower]

Q4NVS,
Do you think that Mango could have done what they have done if they had to raise the funds via private equity investors, and isn't it interesting just how quiet they are about the terms of lease in respect of their aircraft.
Additionally it is telling that they have a lawyer whose speciality is competition law on their board.
I contend that they know exactly what they are doing in so far as sailing close to the wind. Legally they may get away with it all, but long term the fruits can only be a bitter harvest for passengers as free enterprise is choked out of aviation.
Take the examples you give - take Kulula's fare that is 150$ or £100 +/- now that for a two hour flight is cheap....just cast your mind back a few year and now we have high oil prices.
Now look at Mango and SAA fares, yes they are lower but then someone needs to teach them how to distinguish between assets and liabilities. Had any private enterprise indulged in the accounting practices as SAA there would be scandal but here we are today applauding them for cheap fares. Again you could say "fair play" if the government had a socialist agenda - you might not agree with it but at least it would be consistent - but they don't, the SA gov is privatising state owned industries.
The biggest joke of all is that SAX could be sold to Mango.....that would then be "misleading".

[ERASER]

In September 06 I went down to Cape Town for the AAD.......I phoned around and found Comair, SAA and even Nationwide to be cheaper than 1time or Kulula. 1Time and Kulula.com with low overheads and all, fares higher than the main line operators, makes you think, doesn't it............

E

PS - Rumour has it that Mango took 70 pilots out of 400 applications, most of them pale male. You go mango!

[whiskeyflyer]

Kulula and OneTime put up a good fight on SAFM today, Tuesday (mango sent no rep) but most callers it seems couldn't give a damn as long as they got cheap flights (in the short term before SAA/Mango crush competition :\ )
Nice of Kulula's Novick to offer Mango some help on how to start a low cost airline, all Mango have to do is call him, apparently.

............................................................ .................
REGARDING
He said online ticket bookings would open at midnight on www.flymango.com and telephone bookings at 5.30am on Tuesday on 08611-MANGO.
............................................................ .....................

Has anybody actually managed to log onto flymango.com
I want to get some of my tax money back by buying a cheap flight for xmas but all I get is a blank webpage:sad: .

[orgasmotron]

Why all the effort of starting a low cost to crush competition? All SAA / Mango has to do is to employ 10 NTW and 1 Time Captains and these airlines will be parking aircraft. I believe 1 Time's crew shortages is reaching crisis dimensions. Bad planning catching up?

Just remember, once Mango has crushed the competition with their subsidised airfares, their prices won't stay that low. The public who now only wants the cheapest tickets, will then again be paying R3000 to CPT as in the old days. Remeber East London airfaires of SAA before 1 Time arrived on the market? Once the government has cushed free an fair enterprize in the airline industry, SAA will be the only player and new players will not be able to enter the market to compete since they will be crushed by price wars as they start. I'm afraid with mango starting, either NTW or 1 Time will not make it. At least NTW has international routes to carry them.

[Q4NVS]

Do you think that Mango could have done what they have done if they had to raise the funds via private equity investors...

Take the examples you give - take Kulula's fare that is 150$ or £100 +/- now that for a two hour flight is cheap....just cast your mind back a few year and now we have high oil prices.
Now look at Mango and SAA fares, yes they are lower but then someone needs to teach them how to distinguish between assets and liabilities. Had any private enterprise indulged in the accounting practices as SAA there would be scandal but here we are today applauding them for cheap fares.

Makes you think then - maybe Kulula.com is also Government sponsored, but not telling anyone, if I read into their latest fares in response to those of Mango. :O

Cape Town - The price war between SA's budget airlines is on.
Kulula.com has undercut low cost carrier Mango's launch price of R169 between Johannesburg-Cape Town, but it's still not the cheapest.

On its website, Kulula.com invites consumers to make use of its "fruit salad fare" from just R168 all inclusive from November 15. The offer is valid for flights between Johannesburg-Cape Town and Johannesburg-Durban or for a coastal flip between Cape Town and Durban.

Now Mr. Novick, seeing that Kulula always has the "Taxpaying Consumer" at heart, could I please get a refund on the R1100 overcharged on your private profit making airline..? Seeing that now I can buy the same seat much cheaper, just because there is competition on the horizon...:*

Blah-blah-blah

[4HolerPoler]

Developing story -

Low-cost airlines set for war

Two competitors of SAA's new low-cost airline are reducing their fares in reaction to Mango's cheap offers. "We're obviously going to play their game during the launch," said 1Time airline's marketing director, Rodney James, on Tuesday. "We did the same thing (when we launched), then you've got to settle down and run the business and make a profit. Let's see what happens after the fun and games." Mango CEO Nico Bezuidenhout said on Tuesday the airline's launch had seen an "unprecedented wave of enthusiasm". The airline's website had seen 15 000 availability queries during the first 10 minutes after booking opened at midnight.

By mid-morning on Tuesday, 11 000 confirmed reservations had been made at Mango's call-centre, which opened at 06:00. Bezuidenhout said: "The high call volumes, web impressions and soaring ticket sales prove the market is hungry for a priced-right airline such as Mango." >Mango spokesperson Hein Kaiser said they were aimed largely at reaching the "unflown". Gidon Novick, joint CEO of Comair, which runs Kulula, said the airline would undercut its prices for all of its eight routes, with the lowest fare at R168. This was, however, for a limited number of seats. 1Time's Rodney James said Mango's prices would lose Mango between R200m and R300m a year. Mango was offering one-way tickets from Johannesburg to Cape Town and Durban for R169. 1Time's offering for the same ticket ranged between R165 and R549 in January. December prices were R999. According to its website, Kulula's January prices ranged between R168 and R248. December one-way tickets cost between R859 and R1 399. James said there was some concern that Mango had been given a R100m loan from SAA. "If we had that kind of money we could probably start three or four airlines," he said.

There were also concerns about SAA's anticompetitive practices. Since December 2005, the competition commission had fined SAA twice, first R60m, then R45m, for fixing ticket prices and abusing its dominant position in the market. Nationwide airline's financial director Peter Griffiths said that "at the moment" they were not looking at reducing their prices. " We'll have to look at if we're affected (by Mango's price cuts)." Kaiser said the airline's pricing and business model was "highly sustainable". "The offer on the website is obviously a launch offer, but I can't foresee that the increase in price will be substantially higher." He said the airline's prices for Johannesburg-Cape Town flights for next year were R249 and he foresaw that they would stay at this level. "We will be able to sustain (our low prices), absolutely... There's definitely room in the market for another player."

[ERASER]

Interesting article in the business news paper this morning about Kulula.com and 1Time, Kulula.com said that they are ready for the “price war” and they are sure to survive because they belong to a big company group. They said they are however worried about 1Time and other airlines without this type of support. It seems that Mango isn't the only LCC with financial support from its mother company. In this article Mango said they are looking at 10 B737-800 aircraft.

Heard a rumour that SAA is looking to add more Airbus a/c to its Domestic fleet, A319, A320 and A321 a/c will replace the B737-800’s. Apparently as the leases on the B737-800’s finish they will be retired, probably ending up with Mango.

E

[Deskjocky]

Just seen the new colour scheme- definitely going to turn heads!!!

[Q4NVS]

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/files/dsc00049_165.jpg
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/files/dsc00051_124.jpg

Hope this tickles those "tasting" the Mango!

[beechbum]

I thought it was all supposed to be top secret......cat's out the bag!!!!:eek:

[Q4NVS]

Maybe "The Mango's off the Tree" is more appropriate...:}

:ok:

[beechbum]

Yep I guess so......nice pics tho':ok:

[makeapullup]

:ok: I have found the secret to "how to operate a low cost airline"


You save money by using a very poor server/website...

Anyone tried to use this mango thingy!!!!

Cheers

[contraxdog]

PS - Rumour has it that Mango took 70 pilots out of 400 applications, most of them pale male. You go mango!

Is it MANGO

or MAN GO ?

[PAXboy]

whiskeyflyer...but most callers it seems couldn't give a damn as long as they got cheap flights ...
Yep - you got it!!! The experince of RyanAir is the one they will be drawing on.

Obviously they are buying market share at the moment with low prices and everyone does that. Remember when VS started on the LHR route? They soon found that demand was so high that their prices could drift upwards to meet SA/BA drifitng (slightly) down. Thereafter they can all rise together. This process is seen in almost all countries and I expect that we shall see it all again.

In the UK, where the LCC market is very established and has been through a round of consolidation already, we see that the LCCs such as EZY and FR are not always the lowest cost on a route. When you pick flights for comparison - then the LCC is always cheaper but when you pick flights for real (ie when you HAVE to travel on certain dates and times) then you may find surprises. The true LCCs build market share for those going on holiday who can book months ahead and then make money out of those who are travelling in the short term. Naturally, it will not be possible to see how Mango is actually doing until a year has gone by and the start up offers and the competing offers have happened and gone away.

I agree that the financing of a soft loan is suspicious but it is a battle their competitors cannot win. One can only presume that they have avoided using SAX for this due to historic contracts and seniority.

As to the paint job ... clever but VERY expensive. Expensive to design and to execute. I take this as another example of them having too much easy money as a true LCC does not waste that much money. One possibility is that they will scale it down in a couple of years time and only the first half dozen a/c will have this livery. This would also allow them to write down the high cost of this artwork to start-up costs.

[putt for dough]

Have heard that various people have been trying
in a mad frenzy to get tickets with flymango.com but
to no avail. Apparently their callcentre cant handle
the traffic and the website cant cope either.

To be expected I suppose?

[PAXboy]

Yes to be expected. They need to over stimulate demand so that they can get onto the TV news and papers for free advertising. How long these prices will last is anybodies guess, they will have factored the discounted fares into their first year's figures. For any startup company, this is a SOP.

[fluffyfan]

Good Stuff, lets see how a real low cost airline works not just clever marketing, Nationwide, Comair, 1time have been fighting with SAA for so long its about time SAA hit back....well done SAA....aka Mango.

Sorry Vernon, no new Cars for you this year, sorry 1time you may have to spend some money on maintenance, as for you Comair lets see how you like it, dont know if there is anyone left to sue.

No remorse here, have endured your wining and moaning about the old ogre SAA for too long, its about time SAA hit back and took a few foes down..........DJ what you think hey? good stuff

[George Tower]

SAA for so long its about time SAA hit back....well done SAA....aka Mango.


I for one will be very interested to see how the SAA brand develops. It has got to be one of the strongest brands in SA, and yet it just seems to take hit after hit. Mango looks as if it could be a strong brand, but there is more to branding than orange aircraft.......but with the whole SAA operation now linked so closely to Mango, what does SAA stand for, what are we getting from them, who are they etc........


No remorse here, have endured your wining and moaning about the old ogre SAA for too long, its about time SAA hit back and took a few foes down

FF, I just want to counter your invective by suggesting to you that the logical outcome of your statement is 1. Job losses for pilots and other staff, 2. higher prices for consumers in the long run as a state owned/state run insolvent loss maker seeks to be a monopoloy.

[reptile]

FF, I just want to counter your invective by suggesting to you that the logical outcome of your statement is 1. Job losses for pilots and other staff, 2. higher prices for consumers in the long run as a state owned/state run insolvent loss maker seeks to be a monopoloy.
.......at the expence of taxpayers.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

The other LCCs who have to make a profit to survive will be paying tax to prop up their competition who are under no such obligation.

Nope. Still doesn't sound right...:hmm:

[Q4NVS]

2. higher prices for consumers in the long run...

Do not see any difference between that and the "Price Fixing" that was done between Kulula and 1Time until the arrival of Mango.

LCC's in SA were definitely not cheap, until 2 days ago. :D

[reptile]

.....the "Price Fixing" that was done between Kulula and 1Time until the arrival of Mango......

It would be a mistake to confuse "supply and demand" with "price fixing".

[Q4NVS]

RT, you are possibly correct.

There is however a very thin line between the two - Referring to the fines (not so recently) imposed on Toyota SA and shortly after on a number of other Motor Manufacturers in SA (also by the Competitions Commission).

Competition is good - especially from the consumers point of view.

Lots of talk about the whole taxpayer's issue, which I do not wish to comment on. But hey, if that is the case, atleast lets get some "cheap" flights back from SARS...:D

:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Only if the other LCCs get the same handouts as the competition they've been funding all along.

[Deskjocky]

All the bubbly has been drunk and the pretty girls wearing the new uniforms have gone home, its now time to make some money. There has been the expected response form the other LCC’s which is exactly what was planned for- they have been trying to soak up demand in the market with specials over the last few months in expectation of the launch but I think the guys really gave them a bit of a shock with the launch offer. The primary effect of this is that their counter is just a show- these specials have dried up all of their available inventory of the launch period so they have a handful of seats available to counter- who is talking misleading advertising now??? Its now time to see who are the real LCC’s in the market, all the prices are inclusive and there are lots of seats available- no seats are limited and the price will go up as they are sold BS that one of the “other” LCC’s spouts.
Mango is born, its up to the team to take it forward to the next level- of which I’m absolutely convinced they will- especially given the amount of money they have already generated, the market is hungry and they don’t care who they travel on if the price is right….
I for one will be very interested to see how the SAA brand develops. It has got to be one of the strongest brands in SA, and yet it just seems to take hit after hit. Mango looks as if it could be a strong brand, but there is more to branding than orange aircraft.......but with the whole SAA operation now linked so closely to Mango, what does SAA stand for, what are we getting from them, who are they etc........
FF, I just want to counter your invective by suggesting to you that the logical outcome of your statement is 1. Job losses for pilots and other staff, 2. higher prices for consumers in the long run as a state owned/state run insolvent loss maker seeks to be a monopoloy.
GT, the launch of Mango was the first step in SAA’s repositioning- no sense charging off into the sunset offering cut price tickets to the bucket and spade brigade with our cost structure, remember SAA is the only true network carrier in this market (as I’ve stated before even BA use our network more then they use Comair for feed as we use theirs etc) this positioning has never really been leveraged because of the preoccupation of keeping market share domestically. This leads me onto the whole debate about job cuts and down sizing – at this point in time we have INCREASED capacity domestically, regionally and internationally- the reason is simple, for example there is no way you are going to beat the Desert Carriers to Europe, the middle east and India on price- where you can get them is generating more feed for your network thus forcing them to source all their traffic in the centres they fly to. You cant leverage your network if its full of VFR’s you need capacity to play this game- this works for outbound as well as inbound. Essentially we would rather sell a cheap seat (and in some cases if they buy a high enough fare class on the long haul- we kick in the domestic FOC) to a person connecting onto a long haul flight than sell it to a point to point domestic leisure passenger. Of course that not going to be the total plan we still have a very strong corporate market which is key – they are also going to benefit from this. Coupled to all this is a new distribution strategy that will cut our distribution costs massively- savings we intend passing onto the customer base.
Do not see any difference between that and the "Price Fixing" that was done between Kulula and 1Time until the arrival of Mango.
LCC's in SA were definitely not cheap, until 2 days ago.

What all this will mean is more cheap flights for the locals, cost reductions for corporates coupled to a more focussed route network and more inbound tourists form the key markets. Seems like a plan to me!
Fluffy, it all looks bright orange!! And it looks good!

[Deskjocky]

It would be a mistake to confuse "supply and demand" with "price fixing".

It would be a mistake to take everything at face value, Comair started the charade with Kulula, have a look at their average fare on Kulula- its not that fare behind what they get on their BA brand- if you take into account the franchise fees they pay for the British Flag on the tail then it makes sense to channel more inventory through the “low cost” brand. I would not be surprised to see a few aircraft in their fleet go form green back to blue and white.

1Time are the only “genuine” low cost operators in the market- if they are what they say they are then this will only serve to drive their growth- remember only 5% of South Africans currently fly….. as Ive said before their primary challenge lies in meeting this growth- do they have the capital to drive the growth or are they operating on the preverbal “shoe string” in which case its all just a matter of time regardless of market forces.

That brings me to Nationwide, the way the place is run seems to leave one with the impression that all ol Vern is interested in- besides his racing car- is looking for ways to sue SAA- perhaps he sees this as the only way to really make money…..

[beechbum]

Check this out....

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1133053/M/

[contraxdog]

ATC: MANGO 069, Clear to land Rwy 03L and just confirm you have a volume control for that there paintjob....?

[4HolerPoler]

Latest:

Despite Mango Airlines' claims that it has "ironed out booking glitches", would-be passengers trying to book themselves cheap air tickets ahead of the festive season are being frustrated by jammed call centres and an inaccessible website. The claim was contained in a statement released to I-Net Bridge on Wednesday. Newsmedia has also been trying to make a booking since 08:00 on Thursday, without success. Contacted for clarification, Hein Kaiser of PR company Marcus Brewster and speaking on behalf of Mango, said: "We told one hundred percent truth and just the truth." That was before newsmedia even put the first question to him.
Kaiser said the bandwidth had been increased four times and that "now things seem to be going better". When newsmedia read some of the readers' comments to Kaiser, he asked that it be forward to him so they "could be contacted and shown where they would get help from".

Kaiser on Tuesday told newsmedia that the call centre was staffed with 130 people and that bandwidth would be increased by 23:00 that night. His statement on Wednesday vaguely claims capacity to the website has been "substantially beefed up and its call centre staff increased", without giving the actual numbers. Some would-be Mango passengers angrily questioned the validity that Mango has ironed out booking glitches. One reader wrote: "I tried to connect but I only get a mango green screen, so much for them upgrading their capacity to process payments if you cannot even get onto the site. Someone should explain to them how network load balancing would increase their web uptime..."

Another said "it is not true that mango has ironed out booking glitches. I have been trying since 08:00 yesterday (Wednesday) and most of the night and again this morning (Thursday). Their website falls over and their call centre is always engaged. I guess you cannot expect any better from a company that is owned by SAA. SAA has never been able to offer decent customer service all these years anyway so their offspring will be the same." Another would-be passenger simply wrote - "It still ain't flying".

Say - if you've got time why don't you try & get access, website or call center, & let us know how it goes. 4HP

[I.R.PIRATE]

Been trying online all day, still no joy. C'moooon dudes, things to see and people to do...

[starliner]

Apart from Nico, does anyone have any other names of key personnel/postholders?

[Q4NVS]

Once again today was a "Good" :} Marketing day for Mango...

As the saying goes: "Even bad publicity is good publicity"

Now if the other LCC guru's would just keep shut, they would not earn Mango half the publicity they do.

Full investigation and report in the Sunday Times page 5.
First item on Carte Blanche followed by 30min report plus live interview with Nico Bezuidenhout on SABC 3's Interface.

The best of them all is Mr. Novick jnr - what a bright spark he is.

Categorically claiming that Kulula was and still is the cheapest in the market...:yuk:

This after the Sunday Times proved that even apart from the current price war (of which 1Time is/was the cheapest), Kulula remains the most expensive by R200 to R400. :=

The best mathematical excellence by Mr. Novick was also shown on both Carte Blanche and Interface.

"We as a company (including employees), pay R250 million per year in taxes. What concerns us is that R100 million of our money was used to start Mango..."

Even if Mango was started with taxpayers money as everyone would like to believe, I do suggest you fire your Accountant or Standard 4 maths teacher...

2006 SARS Income Budget = R446.4 billion
Kulula's contribution @ R250 million (including employees) = 0.0538%

Thus Mr. Novick, you only coughed up R53 800 at worst in order to give all taxpayers a fair share, which I am sure is what the Government would have done. :E

:O

[Deskjocky]

Q4NVS, the guys are rolling on the floor with laughter- they are loving it- this just could not be better in terms of publicity, hopefully messers Novick and Orsmond can keep this up right up to the launch on November 15. Another unexpected spin off is that online sales are also going through the roof at mainline- seems all this attention has got the travelling public in a frenzy and they are now seeing just how much more expensive Kulula actually is in comparison to its competitors- even SAA.

All this just leaves me wondering how ACSA is going to handle all this additional traffic- imagine the parking situation!!!!:{ :{ :{

[V35B]

For those of you who are a upbeat SAA getting one back on the low cost carriers, you make me laugh. The current LCC's will be better run and managed than Mango will ever be. Just take a look at its big brother. I am not trying to have a go at the previous posts but I just feel that there is a slightly aggressive approach towards the current LCC's on this thread. Just remember that the LCC's and Nationwide are privately run, and a have provided a lot of jobs for a lot of people. They have proved themselves in the industry already by competing with SAA, now they have to compete with another airline with an endless flow of cash. I think they are relatively justified for feeling a bit miffed. Happy flying guys

[JetPark]

V35B - very nicely put. Good observation. I got handed a liqui-fruit at a traffic light wrapped in a Mango branded wrap-around thing - very clever marketing strategy. That could not have come cheap! Not sure if that was a country-wide strategy. If so, at least I got something back from my tax payment propping them up:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Will the gloating from certain posters continue when Mango have achieved their objectives of putting pilots out of a job and increasing prices to pre LCC levels?

[Deskjocky]

For those of you who are a upbeat SAA getting one back on the low cost carriers, you make me laugh. The current LCC's will be better run and managed than Mango will ever be. Just take a look at its big brother. I am not trying to have a go at the previous posts but I just feel that there is a slightly aggressive approach towards the current LCC's on this thread. Just remember that the LCC's and Nationwide are privately run, and a have provided a lot of jobs for a lot of people. They have proved themselves in the industry already by competing with SAA, now they have to compete with another airline with an endless flow of cash. I think they are relatively justified for feeling a bit miffed. Happy flying guys

First post and such a lot to say, vested interest perhaps?

In terms of Mango’s management, I would suggest you give the guys the opportunity to show you what they can do- I can assure you that you will not be disappointed- or perhaps you will- if what I have postulated about your vested interest is true.:ok:

In terms of aggression I would suggest you really read some of the posts- most of it is directed at SAA- posts by SRT and JP that follow yours are an example of such. The other LCC’s? well over the last few months I for one have debated their position in what I consider to be a balanced way- pros and cons, look up my posts if you don’t believe me- these guys have some real challenges ahead- even without the Mango influence.

I get the feeling that some posters here feel that SAA should rather just roll over and die, well all may not be where we want it to be with the national carrier, however a definite plan is in place to remedy to malaise the business has been in for the last few years and return to long term profitability- something that will cost the tax payer far less than if SAA went belly up. Part of this plan is Mango, the rest of the strategy will emerge in the new year.

Our plans will be executed within the law’s of the country- as always our competitors know they have an ever vigilant competition authority to whom they can turn if they feel they have been aggrieved. I do however feel quite confident that they will find this difficult to do as there are no underhanded tactics on SAA’s part insofar as Mango is concerned- it is just a good business opportunity that will now be exploited.

What disappoints me about some of the participants in this forum is their lack of vision in terms of where air travel can be taken to in this country, we know that only 5 to10% of the people in this country have ever flown- have any of you any idea what the average black person pays to ride a clapped out old taxi form Johannesburg to East London/PE etc? Go find out. Then lets talk about jobs for pilots.
:ugh:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Wise up...

At no point have I ever expressed the wish SAA would roll over and die.

Standing on their own without being propped up in part by taxes from their competition, however....:rolleyes:

[Deskjocky]

Suggest you go back and do a little reading – that the whole point of the exercise- the long term and sustained profitability of SAA :ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

By using the taxpayer to fund them to undercut the competition and put them out of business?:confused:

[Deskjocky]

Is this the only argument you have? if the competition are as good as everybody seems to say they are then they nothing to worry about- if the market grows then its good for everyone- problem is they know their business models contain certain fundamental flaws- these would have been exposed in the long term in any event regardless of what SAA does. So what are they doing aside from planting stories in the Media about how much tax you pay.

As an aside…. everyone seems to be very forgetful of how, through SAA and therefore by default THE TAXPAYER, Comair got their first 737’s when the white paper on aviation came out in the early 90’s- SAA gave 3 aircraft to Comair for literally nothing and then agreed to maintain them as well as provide the pilots for the first 2 years. Without this handout I doubt Comair would have been able to take advantage of the advent of deregulation in the market so soon- if they had done it on their own it would have taken them much longer and cost them an absolute fortune. It’s a long way from operating clapped out old F27’s to SZK to a jet airline.

Facts are nasty things when they get out….much like Comair’s involvement in the demise of Sun Air- but lets leave that for another time shall we?

[George Tower]

Afternoon All,

I see things are getting fruity in here.

The tone of the debate has always been very much the handbags that characterise Boeing v Airbus.

Both Kulula and 1Time do face some big decisions soon as their fleets are aging and inefficient compared to the B738 which has the lowest fuel cost per seat km compared to the competitors.

What irks me though is the cheap thrills that peple like Q4NVS seem to get from the idea of Mango. Quite frankly you're just a bit sad and I'm left wondering whether you want to see a Jacob Zuma, Jeremy Cronin Marxist dream ticket elected to running this country. I'd recommend you read some Adam Smith along side the diet of Karl Marx :ok:

that the whole point of the exercise- the long term and sustained profitability of SAA

Deskjocky - The critic would say "at what cost?" How much "investment" does it take, how bottomless is the pit of money? And why no mention of privatisation?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Is this the only argument you have?

Pretty much, it's a valid point.:hmm:

Seems sucking on the taxpayer's tit blinds one to the truth. As GT asks, just how bottomless is this money supply? Even Comair had to stand on their own feet eventually but it appears the national carrier has no such intention. The LCCs were making a profit and surviving, expanding in some cases, unlike SAA who continue to require state bailouts. Those carriers are now funding their own demise through the tax paid by them, a portion of which, no doubt, will go to their competition.

A competition lawyer on the board would also appear to signal an intention to sail very close to the wind, judging by past anti competitive performance from the parent company.

As for the effect on the crews at SAA, well that's something that will have to be considered for the future, but friends who fly for them are not at all happy about the situation. At worst, a lot of pilots will lose their livelihood and prices will rise. At best, trade will be fair and healthy competition will ensure everyone's a winner, but on past performance, I'm not holding my breath.

[Contract Dog]

SRT, at least up here on contract we dont have to worry about funding mango. I love the 183 day rule :ok:

[Q4NVS]

What irks me though is the cheap thrills that peple like Q4NVS seem to get from the idea of Mango. Quite frankly you're just a bit sad and I'm left wondering whether you want to see a Jacob Zuma, Jeremy Cronin Marxist dream ticket elected to running this country. I'd recommend you read some Adam Smith along side the diet of Karl Marx

GT, I do not know what you are trying to prove except that you read a lot of bookcovers at your local CNA...:confused:

Your statement wrt to "Cheap Thrills" is bollocks and I'm sure you know that. :yuk:

I challenge you to expose these "Cheap Thrills" that are not based on Fact or Common Business sense.

I do applaud the arrival of Mango, you are right - pardon the punt, but their arrival THRILLS me!!! :D :D :D

You know why - because more people are benefitting from it, than not.
1. Consumers are finding it slightly easier/cheaper to travel, even though it might only be seasonal.
2. 40+ ATP/Com guys have Airline Jobs which did they did not have a few weeks back. (i.e better pay and equipment)
3. Entry level guys are finding employment with the likes of NTW etc.
4. I still need to understand the problem here, except the effect it might have on some family businesses (those who were screwing the consumers while the consumers themselves thought they were flying hard bargains).

In fact, i'm getting bored even typing this response :ugh:

Maybe, one day, when your profile "PPL soon to be CPL" becomes "CPL or Higher", you will show us how you bypass the doors of Mango to go ask VB for a job where you earn less than a barman at my local hangout - Don't think so..:oh:

Chill and be glad for those who got the opportunities - they worked for it while paying for the boss's racing cars.

I'm also sure the consumers can look after themselves - I do.

:E

[jbayfan]

Most SAA pilots are against Mango as they feel it threatens their future and that SAA will slowly start transfering routes to Mango. I do not agree with this view and feel that Mango is both necessary for SAA's future viability and serves a completely different market than that which SAA, as a Star Alliance member, needs to serve.

For those who feel that Mango can't sell tickets at a lower cost than its competitors, take a look at Ryanair who operate the same aircraft type as Mango and pay salaries equivalent to SAA mainline salaries, yet sell tickets at very low prices and have just posted a R1 billion profit.

Where Mango is going to catch a wake-up call is when they try to turn a B738 with 186 pax in 25 minutes at an African airport, especially at JIA where chaos is the norm, not the exception. That will kill their planned utilisation of 12.5 hours per aircraft per day and will seriously piss off their pax with late departures and arrivals.

[Shrike200]

Where Mango is going to catch a wake-up call is when they try to turn a B738 with 186 pax in 25 minutes at an African airport, especially at JIA where chaos is the norm, not the exception. That will kill their planned utilisation of 12.5 hours per aircraft per day and will seriously piss off their pax with late departures and arrivals.

Yes, I'm pretty curious about this point myself - if they routinely succeed, it will be a wonderful opportunity to see how they do it. I don't want to be a sceptic though, but my current opinion is that they will struggle more often than not. 'Tis the season of the T-storm as well, just to add to the mix....

Picture the scenario: The aircraft is parked on a B or C20+ stand, no airstair, which means 180+ pax must be bussed from, then to the aircraft. Add weather, JIA chaos, any technical snags (should be few on the -800's though)......it'll be a real challenge. Lets see how they hold up.

[FlyingPassion]

I applaud all the LCC's including Mango for giving the consumer a break in terms of price and for giving us "okes" a break in terms of jobs, but I wonder why no-one is asking the simple question - How does one LEGALLY turn around a B737-300 or MD80/DC9 in 30-35 minutes when there is a mandatory 60 minute cool down period before tyre pressures can be taken, gyros have stopped, etc?" It would appear that ALL the LCC's are cutting corners here. Dont know about the B738 regarding gyro's but they still have wheels dont they. This is not made up, this is according to Boeing. Anyone got the answers?

[cigar]

I applaud all the LCC's including Mango for giving the consumer a break in terms of price and for giving us "okes" a break in terms of jobs, but I wonder why no-one is asking the simple question - How does one LEGALLY turn around a B737-300 or MD80/DC9 in 30-35 minutes when there is a mandatory 60 minute cool down period before tyre pressures can be taken, gyros have stopped, etc?" It would appear that ALL the LCC's are cutting corners here. Dont know about the B738 regarding gyro's but they still have wheels dont they. This is not made up, this is according to Boeing. Anyone got the answers?

Was also wondering about the cooling down period. Worldwide 30-35 minutes is the norm for LCC turnaround time (take Southwest and Ryanair for example) so it can't be too much of an issue.

[Shrike200]

Where would you find this legally mandated 60 minute cooldown period? I've never heard anything about that. (Edit to add: Or maybe I have, just forgotten as usual!) There's the usual brake energy level checks (with possible delay, and true, it does use 60 minutes as a basis I seem to remember), IRS alignment etc, but other than that I'm not aware of any turnaround time limitations in terms of a blanket '60 minutes'...I'd like to know more.

[beechbum]

The 737-400, at heavy landing weights at Johannesburg (sorry ORT IA), obviously temp related, suffers from a 53min turnaround restriction. This defintitely hinders turnaround times and can be a real issue in the summer months. The 737-300 is not limited as well as the DC9/MD80. I'm not sure about the -800 as in present SAA config it is not an issue but with the extra seats etc there may be a problem.....or maybe Boeing has resolved the issues of the -400. Would be interesting to know!
As far as IRS alignment is concerned....you know that you either have time for a long align or a short align....the choice is yours and does not play a role in any form of turnaround restrictions whatsoever......!!!

[George Tower]

Gormless Q4,

I was not going to bother wasting my time replying. Seems like you're both as sad as eachother. My point all the long has been that governments should not run or own airlines or even be allowed to remotely gerrymander with airlines.

If you are so myopic to see only the cheap seats in front of you and not the impact of this kind of state owned player in a free market then great. You will note that in the UK, US and EU all the low cost revolution has been driven by the private sector. That is my point.

If you'd oppose me on that basis, but its with a few insults, and jibes about VB's racing cars its a waste of time.

Rgds

GT

[T Hairy Henry]

I think the most important thing out of all this is.....surely there is a better use for the money that is being spent on Mango. Just take a look around! I'm sure you'll think of something.

A government doesn't operate an airline to make money. It does it to provide a service to aid the development of the nation. In SA there are already enough private sector operators in the market to do this, and at a low cost (The only exception being the long haul market).

The government needs to move on and start/continue to develop other services that will benefit the development of the country.

[Deskjocky]

I think the most important thing out of all this is.....surely there is a better use for the money that is being spent on Mango. Just take a look around! I'm sure you'll think of something.
A government doesn't operate an airline to make money. It does it to provide a service to aid the development of the nation. In SA there are already enough private sector operators in the market to do this, and at a low cost (The only exception being the long haul market).
The government needs to move on and start/continue to develop other services that will benefit the development of the country.

Problem with the other LCC’s in South Africa is that they will grow the market to a point- ie appeal to those that can afford to fly, the price point is too always try and under cut SAA- but they will not take air travel to the masses- Mango is going to do that.

To date the private operators have not been willing to lower their prices- to the levels we are now seeing on a consistent basis- to make air travel more accessible-not just to a small minority- just like they have been unwilling to subscribe to the law as it relates to employment equity, therefore the signal they send to government is that they are a small band of white elitists interested in only making money and choosing what laws of the land they would like to follow.

Now if there were private airlines in this country whose ownership and management makeup reflected the demographics of our country then I doubt we would be even having this discussion.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Johannesburg - Mango Airlines said on Wednesday it had made aviation history in South Africa by selling in excess of 130 000 tickets during its first week of operation, equating to 698 aircraft at full capacity.
The airline said it had sold, on average, more than 18 000 tickets a day since launching seven days ago.

"In response to demand, Mango also has made more low-fare tickets available on the Johannesburg/Durban, Cape Town/Durban/Bloemfontein routes," said the company and added that the low-cost airline was inspired by the public's response to its entry into the market.

Chief executive Nico Bezhuidenhout said he believed Mango also had achieved a "near-instant injection of energy in the aviation market" with the incumbent no-frills airlines responding by lowering their prices to undercut it.

One such airline that responded immediately by undercutting Mango was kulula.com, which lowered "some" of its tickets to R168 one way on the routes on which Mango would be operating while complaining that "only airlines that have no motive to make a profit" can afford to do so.

1Time also lowered "a limited number" of its tickets to R165, undercutting Mango by R4 a trip.

Not engaging in price war

But, Bezhuidenhout says Mango has not entered the market to engage in a price war.

"Low-cost air travel is sustainable through the airline's innovative operational efficiencies, a young fleet of fuel-efficient and technologically advanced Boeing 737-800's, effective use of assets and more-efficient seating configurations," said Bezhuidenhout.

He initially promised that Mango's tickets, after the launch special of R169 one-way trip between Johannesburg and the coastal cities of Cape Town and Durban, would be at least 20% lower than those of closest competitors.

But a quick random test of the prices proved otherwise.

A booking made on Saturday, November 4, for a Johannesburg - Cape Town trip on December 19 and returning December 28 for three people proved at least R300 more expensive than the closest rival.

Similarly, for a return trip Fin24 booked while typing this story - using the cheapest available flights - Mango came out the most expensive of its low-cost peers.

A return between Johannesburg and Cape Town - flying down on December 19 and returning on December 27 is R1 498 at Mango while it is R1 458 with kulula.com and R1 358 on 1Time.

'Not an accurate tool for comparison'

A colleague of spokesperson Hein Kaiser's initially told Fin24 that Mango's normal prices would not be more than R600 for a one-way trip.

Confronted with a single CT-JHB price of R763.66 she sounded surprised and promised to get back to us.

When asked to comment, Kaiser initially said their prices were sustainable while their competitors had cut the prices to ward off the stiff competition.

But, when this writer challenged Kaiser and pointed out that the prices compared were regular prices for the other airlines, Kaiser later sent us a statement: "I would like to point out that Mango aims to, on average, be 20% more affordable than our competitors.

"What this means is that comparing flights - sector and time-specific - would not provide you with an accurate tool for comparison as, if you research pricing tiers that most airlines use to manage yield, your comparison may simply mean that Mango's lower fares have already been sold out and you may be comparing different pricing tiers against one another."

It beats us how it is possible not to get an accurate result when looking for the cheapest flights on specific dates at the same time, as we have done.


Cracks beginning to show this early?:hmm:


From another forum:

"Dear Mr *****,

I have looked at the flights on flymango.co.za and have the following for your consideration:

1 x Adult

Flights on Mango:
JE 123 26 Nov Depart: Johannesburg 05H45
Arrive: Cape Town 08H00

JE 170 27 Nov Depart: Cape Town 17H55
Arrive: Johannesburg 20H00
Economy Class
Total cost of booking per person including taxes R 1676.00"


On 1Time at the same date and appr time it is R1208.00
and Kulula also same dates and appr time it is R1358.00

[FUG]

03 November 2006
LOW-COST AIRLINES
Pips on the shoulder
By Shareen Singh
It's fair to say that newly appointed Mango CEO Nico Bezuidenhout is virtually unknown in the business world. Type his name in Google and nothing about him comes up.
But on Monday, the boy from Boksburg was catapulted into the limelight after his hasty appointment, barely two hours before the media launch of Mango, SA Airways' low-cost carrier.
At 30, Bezuidenhout is the youngest airline CEO in SA, and he looks his age. A soft speaker with a limp handshake, he comes across as timid and somewhat wooden for a guy who has just landed the top job in a start-up airline.
Responding to kulula.com's "Mango will go vrot" press statement, he mumbles: "They are entitled to say whatever they want" during a rushed interview with the FM.
He joined SAA five years ago and was in direct sales. Before that he worked at Big Concerts and was responsible for setting up TicketWeb, which subsequently folded. He studied transport economics at RAU but never graduated, and he is yet to complete his MBA thesis.
Somewhat more relaxed at Mango's second bash - held at Koyama on Northcliff Ridge this week - he said he was not surprised when Mango chairman Christo Wiese told him the job was his.
"I was involved with establishing Mango right from the start," he says. The process began over a year ago.
"Our cost structure is more efficient than any incumbent low-cost carrier," he boasts. "No-one can beat Mango because its Boeing 737-800s are fuel-efficient and we have the biggest seating capacity, with 186 seats."
But perhaps Mango's biggest competitive edge w ill come from a tie-up with Edgars. Anyone with an Edgars store card can use it to buy Mango tickets, once the deal with Edgars is in the bag and the technical details have been thrashed out.
For now at least there is a buzz about the new airline and its R165 fares to all the local destinations it serves. But as Bezuidenhout points out, "it will be first come, first served". What the highest fares will be and how many R165 tickets will be available, he cannot say.
I have a feeling that the Financial Mail are not big fans of Mr. B

[Deskjocky]

FUG, good to hear form you- you should really make forays into this forum- your insight would be great.

What we are seeing is a carefully orchestrated PR campaign by the green team, good luck to them too- the longer the free publicity lasts-good or bad- the better…..thanks again to GN, err....what was his aviation experience again….oh yes! Daddy is the chairman!!:} :}

[FUG]

FUG, good to hear form you- you should really make forays into this forum- your insight would be great.

DJ, generally I can only speak the same amount of :mad: that I read here once I have put 18 cold Perronis down my throat. Speaking of which....

[Deskjocky]

Ha ha...too true! Liver has had about enough time to recover from the last time..hell yea! will drop you a mail to make a plan.

[Deskjocky]

IF anyone is around OR Tambo today at 13h50 keep a lookout for a certain orange 737 800 conducting its acceptance flight:D :) :D

[Shrike200]

....and don't forget the sunglasses!

[Q4NVS]

With the knowledge that SAA is planning another fleet expansion, most probably with Airbus, was just wondering:

Is it possible that SAA might have been offered a lucrative deal or discount, if they were to commit to getting rid of the 737-800's as soon as possible. If so, this could mean that starting Mango is a win-win for SAA in more ways than what meets the eye...;)

As a matter of interest:
EasyJet has just signed a confirmed order for 52 A319's, with another 75 on Option. This brings the total EasyJet order book to 200 narrow bodies (excluding the Hosties...:} )

:E

[PAXboy]

THHA government doesn't operate an airline to make money. It does it to provide a service to aid the development of the nation. In SA there are already enough private sector operators in the market to do this, and at a low cost (The only exception being the long haul market).
That is true but, unfortunately, all governments consider their airline to have replaced the Army, Navy and Air Force as the thing to be proud of at international gatherings. "Look what I own".

We have seen that western govts have, at last, learnt the lesson and are divesting themselves of the nationalised airlines. In Europe, the process is almost complete after a cycle of (I guess) about 40-50 years. That is, from when the airline was nationalised to when it was privatised. If it was National from the beginnning, then they are more reluctant to sell. (Note: I have not checked these dats, just taken a guess).

So, SAA has got some time to go. In due course, they will need the money and sell it and say how clever they are but that time is at least ten years away. Of course, SAA could go bust before then but that is another point!

[putt for dough]

'We're not using taxpayers' money'

Thu, 16 Nov 2006
The new lost-cost airline Mango on Thursday denied claims by kulula.com that it was using taxpayers' money from South African Airways, the airline's spokesperson said.

"The beginning and the end of the relationship between SAA and Mango was the R100-million loan," said spokesperson Hein Kaiser.

"That loan obviously has to be paid back and we have to provide a return on investment, but there's no way that it will effect (sic) the taxpayers' pocket."

Kaiser said Mango had a strong business model and was quite clear, from the beginning, about the fact that it would not use taxpayers' money.

Stop using taxpayers' money

He was reacting to a statement by kulula.com on Wednesday in which the airline's chief executive Gidon Novick said that Mango should stop using taxpayers' money from SAA.

According to Novick: "We have asked SAA for their commitment to limit their exposure to the initial R100-million that has been sunk into the project to prevent further damage to free enterprise at taxpayers' expense."

SAA loaned its subsidiary Mango R100-million to get started.

He added: "We look forward to SAA confirming to us and all South Africans that not a single rand further will be taken from public coffers to support Mango."

Kaiser said he would respond to Novick's claims and statements in good spirit, but added that it was becoming tiresome.

"It's becoming a bit of a bored claim and holds absolutely no substance whatsoever."

Beyond the R100-million loan, taxpayers' would not be affected, said Kaiser.

Healthy competition

He said the consumer, was in fact, winning as Mango's entry into the aviation market meant healthy competition.

"Other airlines suddenly lowered their prices while claiming that low prices were not sustainable."

"The Mango business model is vastly different from what South African aviation has ever seen before, so we are able to offer lower prices," he said.

SAA spokesperson Jacqui O'Sullivan said SA Airways chief executive Khaya Ngqula had received a letter from Novick and would respond soon.

Meanwhile, responding to kulula.com's suggestions that some of Mango's first flights were running less than half full, Kaiser said the airline had sold more than more than 100 000 tickets so there was no question of it running half empty.

"Quite honestly, within the first 10 days of trading, we sold in excess of about 150 000 tickets bought and paid for by South Africans."

Sapa

[Q4NVS]

The new lost-cost airline Mango...


Typo - I hope...:E

Does Kulula.com not also use the "Taxpayers" Workshop to maintain their aircraft..? :ugh:

[Deskjocky]

According to Novick: "We have asked SAA for their commitment to limit their exposure to the initial R100-million that has been sunk into the project to prevent further damage to free enterprise at taxpayers' expense."
Kaiser said he would respond to Novick's claims and statements in good spirit, but added that it was becoming tiresome.
"It's becoming a bit of a bored claim and holds absolutely no substance whatsoever."

Bottom line, the customer is winning- he isn’t happy because his game has been shown up- and the customers are now seeing this.
I suggest he takes a page out of the CEO of 1Times’ book- you’ve had your say, it isn’t going to change anything-now get on and deal with the new direction aviation is taking in this market. Eventually even the media looses interest when you drone on and on about the same thing- irrespective of all your contacts

[starliner]

Just do the numbers guys, one 737-800 and all that goes with it in sales salaries maint and ground service can chew about R60m per month. 100m is pocketmoney in this game.

[contraxdog]

150 000 tickets x R200 = R30 000 000 (@Special price)
or
150 000 tickets x R2000 = R300 000 000( @Price now)

then (R30 000 000 + R300 000 000) /2 = R165 000 000 (@ Average Price)

As long as they pay the money back now before normalcy sets in.....

[Champagne Lover]

We love rumours, don't we? but ever heard of smoking guns, or where there's smoke there's fire??
Try these for starters:
1) The Boeing 738's leased from SAA@ R2 000 000/ month. SAA leases them for R18 000 000/month. The difference is not being paid by the taxpayer?? Yea right....
2) What % of all pilots at Mango are sons of SAA captains?
We wouldn't want the taxpayers to suspect ANY measure of nepotism, or don't we care???
3) what happened to BEE at Mango? Apparently very minimal or ZERO! At least as far as cabin and flight deck crew go.
4) During pilot initial training, apparently, rumour has it that the SAA check-captain, plugged all of them initially, due to insufficient training, and NOT being up to SAA mainstream pilot standards.
But not to warry, apparently someone at the government side signed them all out, no problems...

Anyone wishing to take them on in a court of "law", will be up aganst the minister of transport and the minister of justice...... No direct intervention needed, just time, delay, defer, etc. The government has lots of time, and fixed salary lawyers too....

[starliner]

Yea but the same 737 can only fly about 1000 pax per day. My point is the loan will not last till Christmas - then what?

[Q4NVS]

Eish!

...but those ORANGE Shirts for the Flight Deck Crew...:p

Guess it is a good thing that one is not supposed to fly with a Hangover.

:cool:

[B?]

1) The Boeing 738's leased from SAA@ R2 000 000/ month.

Fair competition, SAA should lease some 800's to Nationwide and Kulula at the same rate.

[FuelFlow]

I Believe TULCA had a couple of reliabilty problems yesterday. Have it on good authority that 2 A319`s and 2 B738`s were deployed from SAA to pick up the pieces. Im sure Messers Novick and Orsmond must be quite p:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: d about that!:rolleyes:

[Deskjocky]

1) The Boeing 738's leased from SAA@ R2 000 000/ month.
Fair competition, SAA should lease some 800's to Nationwide and Kulula at the same rate.

Nothing wrong with that, around 1.8 to 2 mil ZAR is what a lease will cost you for a 738 per month- exchange rate dependant. SAA have merely passed the cost onto Mango.

If Kulula or Nationwide wanted one then go ahead and contact the manufacturer….

see Comair are back in the market looking for “cheap” 734’s according to a post on avcom. One already arrived at SAT for repainting. About sums it up…suppose shouldn’t complain- more revenue for SAA technical- bring on those “cheap” planes guys!! lots of money to be made out of those D checks that are just around the corner!:ok:

[Q4NVS]

Haha! :D

Green and Blue Paint schemes partially sponsored by Taxpayers..?

:O

[Deskjocky]

I believe the latest addition to their fleet, that will be maintained at the taxpayer’s expense, will be painted in the colours of the British Flag. At least Mr Novick is getting back some of his 250 mil that he says he pays in tax- hopefully, for his sake, SARS doesn’t decide to try and validate that claim he seems to be making… :}

[PissCat]

[quote=Q4NVS;2973709]Eish!

...but those ORANGE Shirts for the Flight Deck Crew...:p


...... explains the cracked windscreen!:}

[Q4NVS]

GormanInkarnati

Care to give us some insight into the Rostering situation/rules @ Mango...

How many sectors per day versus flying days per month etc.

I know it's early days yet, but surely it's gotta be damn better than what the guys/girls at NTW are currently experiencing - if I understand a particular Thread properly..;)

[Deskjocky]

If my memory serves me correctly they are going to use Pegasus which is the same system SAA uses, if that’s still the case then things should be organised- which they are going to need to be as their business case relies on very high levels of crew utilization.

[madherb]

I hear the load factors are not that great - 80 pax to CT for example. This may be an exception, sure, but to be cost-effective a LCC should fill seats.......

For all the hype, the fares are not that cheap - check & compare.

M

[Q4NVS]

A lot has been said about this in recent times.

However, as when buying property, as the number of units (seats) sold out increases, so does the price of the remaining one's. :cool:

It is my understanding that this will explain why the seats currently still available on Mango (for the immediate future), are the more expensive one's. It goes without reason that not even Mango will operate a LCC with ALL seats going for R169...

Did a search, for specific dates, some months into 2007.

Herewith the results, listing cheapest FIRST and most expensive LAST:

1. Mango
2. SAA :D :E :D
3. Kulula
4. 1Time
5. Nationwide

:O

[madherb]

Well, if Mango flies with 80 pax, those are obviously the cheap seats; so the expensive (relatively) seats remain empty. How do you make money flying a 738 with 80xR169 seats filled, while the other 100+ are empty? Early days obviously; but, as per the table in Q4's post, SAA is offering good prices as well, and it is not easy to get a seat at short notice.........

As per most LCCs, the earlier you book the better. Tried Ryanair vs Aer Lingus a while ago, and AL came out cheaper as well. So the LCCs have their place, but are not always the cheapest!

It pays tp shop around...........:ok:

[Q4NVS]

As per the Media Briefing during the launch of Mango, it was noted by Mr. B that only +/- 20% of first seats sold per flight will be at the rate of R169.

If I am not mistaken, then thereafter the prices start increasing on a sliding scale system, the next one's starting at R249 I think.

Thus @ 20% that means that only 37 seats per 738 will atleast be sold at R169 per ticket. Do not know the breakeven point for a 738, but guess the rest could possibly pick up the tab...

I know that on certain routes it could be possible to still make a profit with +/-35% Load Factor on the one sector, provided the next is better or full.

It does however vary from aircraft to aircraft and company to company.

However, thanks to Bill Gates and IE, shopping around always gives the "cheapest" seat, often even with drinks and a meal included...;)

[Deskjocky]

The key reason why the LF is not sitting at 100% from day one is the lead time from sales opening to the first flight was only 2 weeks. If I compare this to the lead time for SAA bookings in the liesure and VFR market segments then I would say they have actually done a very good job in securing the loads they did. I very much doubt that less than 100% LF’s will bother them in November- the first 2 weeks is a shake down for the big push in December.

[saducees]

ACRONYM FOR (T U L C A )
TAXPAYERS ULTIMATELY LOOSE CASH AGAIN.
Just some humour for the day
SAD

[putt for dough]

Mango 'costs taxpayers R3m/wk'
29/11/2006 08:06



Johannesburg - South African listed airline group Comair (COM) estimates that South African Airways' new low cost carrier Mango is costing taxpayers over three million rand a week.
Comair joint CEO Erik Venter based these calculations on an all inclusive cost of R60 000 per flight between Johannesburg and Cape Town.

"With their flights only 50% full, their revenue per flight won't even cover their fuel and maintenance costs," Venter said in a statement on Wednesday.

He went on to question how much SAA's attempt to "nationalise" the local aviation industry was ultimately going to cost South African taxpayers.

Eleven days ago, Comair requested an undertaking from SAA not to put any further capital into Mango following the R100m that has already been sunk into the project. To date the undertaking has not been forthcoming, the statement said.

Even though Comair was able to run kulula.com profitably from day one, Mango has indicated that it expects a two-year grace period in which to turn a profit, he noted.

Comair runs British Airways locally and kulula.com.

Mango took to the skies on November 15 with an initial fleet of four Boeing 737 800s - an aircraft favoured by global local cost carriers for its reliability, safety record and fuel efficiency.

The airline was expecting to operate 28 flights a day once its full schedule was on the go.

Initially the airline planned to fly the Johannesburg-Durban and Johannesburg-Cape Town routes, but will add the Durban-Bloemfontein and Bloemfontein-Cape Town routes in December.

[chopperkie]

Just for info. I was looking for a ticket dep JHB 26 Dec to CPT and return on 4 Jan.

Here from cheapest to most expensive:

1.BA
2.SAA
3.Kulula
4.Mango
5.1time
6.Nationwide

Now the question is, if you really want the cheap tickets you have to book way in advance.This is already a month in advance.Considering it's the festive season, why are you a LCC when you cant live up to the reputation?

CW:confused:

[Deskjocky]

The LCC's are fighting each other at the moment and so have sold off almost everything they are prepared to do at the rock bottom prices- same goes for Nationwide. Anything thats left they need to make a few more bucks out of. SAA and BA have been watching from the sidelines while the LCC's and Nationwide have a go at each other, now that most of the dust has settled they are going to move whatever inventory they have left to customers who missed the boat.

[whiskeyflyer]

ChooperHie you have just experienced what is common in US & Europe. The prices advertised are the cheapest you can get, the rest of the seats are subject to the black art of revenue management.:bored:
Ryanair, easyjet etc are always being hauled in front of advert standards commission for their adverts.

If you want the cheap ticket book well in advance and always shop around(last year I did get a Ryanair 10 euro flight, for the first time, from Standstead to Biarritz but i booked six months in advance and flew mid week)
and the next week amazingly KLM was the cheapest to Amsterdam.

Kulula do specials, they come available midnight and sold out by 2am, people stay up for this.
Best advise is subscribe to the website for notication emails of specials(saa voyager is good for this)

It the ultimate supply and demand system (midweek, outside of school holidays, midday a good time for cheapies. If you want Friday evening to CPT pay up or shut up)
Competition is good for the customer but you must shop around.

[dikkes]

Forgetting about who's right or who's wrong, let me tell you what happened the other day when I went to visit my Dad in the old-age home. The staff asked me to come to the staff room so they could ask me a few questions. Not knowing what to expect, I was bowled over by their questions. As I am in the industry they thought I would be able to help them! They wanted to go as a group on this "mango" and sleep over on the station, I presume they meant the airport, for the night and come back the next day so they can also see what it is like to fly!
There-in lies the rub, people want cheap and affordable travel and people who never ever thought they would fly can do so now!

So let's hope this LCC will sort itself out and the people benefit. :ok:

[ERASER]

Mr Jetpilot, you know woman...not happy unless they b#*&$ and moan :} ......if something did not go "boom", "crash" or "whoof" almost a non event.........must be the profesional pilots that saved the day!!!!!!!

E

PS - Please don't let her fly to the East or the Americas, the flight will be over the sea for a very long time!! :E

PSS - Will anybody tell the drivers of the THREE fire engines to stop driving around the aircraft, they are making the pax nervous. ;)

PSSS - I wonder who told the pax to go to the SAA standby counter? Mhhhhhh.........Those incompetent Mango staff :*

[beechbum]

"flying over the sea for so long" (ie: fuel dump),
Since Mango fly 737-800's.............this aircraft type is not equipped with such a facility!
Anyway it most likely had to fly over the sea.......
1.to remain clear of other traffic....whilst the problem had to be attended to.
2. To burn off fuel in order to land within acceptable landing weight limits.
Ummmmm......!!!!!!

[south coast]

If the crew were happy to waste time burning off fuel, one can more than likely accept that the problem was not too serious, because, if it was, ie. life threatening, landing weights dont mean anything, and airspace is cleared very quickly for you.

[Goldfish Jack]

Gee whiz guys lets have a bit of common sense and logic here every now and then PLEASE

It flew over the sea because runway 01 was in use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where else can it be vectored to intercept the ILS?

"Landed faster than normal " is the typical sort of statement from a highly experienced passenger. Try a wind of 330 30/45 and see what any a/c will do!!

"Fire engines on the runway" What utter rubbish - how can an a/c land with vehicles on the runway. ICAO requirements require a standby in the event of a KNOWN problem irrespective of what it is. Vehicles were simply in their USUAL positions and a vehicle always follows the landing a/c in case of problems and also so inspect the runway for any contamination so it can be made avail ASAP after landing.

my word I cant believe I am reading such rubbish

[Q4NVS]

Gee whiz guys lets have a bit of common sense and logic here every now and then PLEASE

My word I cant believe I am reading such rubbish

:D :D :D

Similar to the Pretoria News posters during the past week:
"SAA leaves disabled man on RUNWAY"

Now I just wondered how the disabled person got onto the RUNWAY in the 1st place..?

:ok:

[putt for dough]

Gee whiz guys lets have a bit of common sense and logic here every now and then PLEASE
It flew over the sea because runway 01 was in use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where else can it be vectored to intercept the ILS?
"Landed faster than normal " is the typical sort of statement from a highly experienced passenger. Try a wind of 330 30/45 and see what any a/c will do!!
"Fire engines on the runway" What utter rubbish - how can an a/c land with vehicles on the runway. ICAO requirements require a standby in the event of a KNOWN problem irrespective of what it is. Vehicles were simply in their USUAL positions and a vehicle always follows the landing a/c in case of problems and also so inspect the runway for any contamination so it can be made avail ASAP after landing.
my word I cant believe I am reading such rubbish

Couldn't of said it better myself Goldfish Jack :D :D :D :D

[orgasmotron]

Is it just my imagination or does other forum browsers also find that general RT used by Mango / Tulco drivers are of a very poor standard? I have carefully listened to their transmissions during the past week or so and found that a lot of their messages are long winded, inaccurate and without callsigns being read back.

Today overheard something like this:
" Uhh, Central Tulco ***, we are picking up a lot of CB's and thunderstorms ahead and would like to route, Uh......, maybe a little bit left, uh say......20 degrees for about, Uh.... 90 miles or so, would that be ok?"

All the other carriers were just saying "Central XYZ 123 request left/right of track for weather"

They sound a lot like those old spoories skygods (My tail is orange) who always had to give a 10 page explanation for each request and then only read back half the instructions, like in the old days when they were the only ones above FL 250 and had the frequency to themselves.

Maybe our ATC friends can also contribute or maybe set the record straight if I am over reacting.

[ASD]

Funny you mention it because its exactly what I was saying to one of my collegues the other day!

To those who use correct R/T phraseology and full readbacks :ok:

To those who dont :ugh: lets just hope this will improve with time.

[Goldfish Jack]

Finally someone has overtaken SAA as the worst performers on the R/T.

And there is no-one close to them when it comes to poor R/T. It seems like the older voices want only use numbers when they get busy as well! Orgasmotron you lucky you heard a readback - what day was that?

[Goldfish Jack]

Heard there is another fluffy standing AOG at Durban with leaking nose oleo.

I cant ever remember these a/c in their SAA colours having such a poor serviceability record.........

[FlingWingKing]

I agree that Mango RT procedures are not always of the highest quality....but you can say that of ALL the airlines flying around our skies these days.

I have heard them all....Comair/Kulula, Nationwide, 1time, SAX, Airlink, SAA....the whole lot occacionally have some real bad RT procedures.

"Finally someone has overtaken SAA as the worst performers on the R/T."

I think it is quite unfair to single out Mango and SAA when some of your colleagues are also guilty of the offense.....

[Shrike200]

...and here I was thinking I'd caught a statistical anomaly, and just happened to be listening when all the bad ones were on the air....so it isn't just me then.

Sometimes everybody has a 'uh....uh...uh....standby!' moment though. I can hardly claim to be innocent!

[jbayfan]

Considering that the Mango pilot contingent is made up of ex-Nationwide, 1Time, Comair, SAX, Airlink, Safair and retired SAA pilots, exactly who do you blame for the poor RT. I guess you must be one of the "cool" pilots who responds with "coming down" when assigned a squawk. You are a Tw.t!!

[Q4NVS]

Considering that the Mango pilot contingent is made up of ex-Nationwide, 1Time, Comair, SAX, Airlink, Safair and retired SAA pilots....

Just to put things into perspective, to date not a single SAX Pilot has left to join Mango and pretty sure no one will either...:O

Not sure, but think it is the same situation at Comair

:ok:

[beechbum]

Jbay fan..to correct you - no Comair or Airlink guys either. So we can start to narrow down the "culprits"!!!!!!:ok:

[orgasmotron]

Well, if the contingent of Mango crews are made up as depicted by our learned friend Jbayfan, and we take into account the previous posts regarding the poor RT of crews in SA, very little prevoius complaints regarding the RT procedures of Nationwide, SAX, Comair, 1 Time and Link were posted. However SAA keep on featuring whenever this issue is raised. Statistically then, we'll have to contribute the perception of poor RT to ex SAA pilot's. Perception is every individual's truth.

[reptile]

.......However SAA keep on featuring whenever this issue is raised.....

The plot thickens....

"Jnb East, Springbok 555 reguest"

"Go ahead Springbok 555"

Blah, blah, blah, blah.......................

[FlingWingKing]

The only reason why SAA "features" so much on these forums is because no-one realy cares whether the other airlines use standard RT procedures or not. It is almost as if every-one expect SAA to be absoluty flawless in whatever they do, and thus any little mistake is pounced upon and blown out of proportion!

[SIC]

This is by far one of the most ridiculous threads in a while - so I feel it suits my interests.... and since I am a firm believer in working only for reward I think the SAA guys should by default be much better than anybody else cause they get paid to be better... whereas I dont expect too much from a NTW boy or the guy in the Seneca on downwind 03L.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Shrike200]

This is by far one of the most ridiculous threads in a while - so I feel it suits my interests.... and since I am a firm believer in working only for reward I think the SAA guys should by default be much better than anybody else cause they get paid to be better... whereas I dont expect too much from a NTW boy or the guy in the Seneca on downwind 03L.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

:D :D :D Hilarious! Well said SIC! :E

[makeapullup]

lets pick on someone else.

This was on Thursday afternoon.

ATC " Zambia 010 climb to FL150 and contact Area ....."
Zambia " Bye bye"

That's got to be a winner!!

Have to agree on the Mango RT thing though. Maybe they'll improve.

Cheers

[FlingWingKing]

Well SIC, you have just proven my point.....

Anyhow, SAA is made uo of pilots from ALL of the current airlines flying around the skies. Some have good habits....some better. Fact is, EVERYBODY, even the "best" paid ones in the industry, are making the same mistakes.....

Like the saying goes, "The highest tree will always get the most wind"...I can accept that. Just wondering what the motive behind the SAA bashing is....and how those basher will change their tunes once they walk into the millionaire club at SAA....???

[jbayfan]

very little prevoius complaints regarding the RT procedures of Nationwide, SAX, Comair, 1 Time and Link were posted Just who do you think makes up the pilot contingent at SAA?? Ex-Link, SAX, Safair, Comair, Nationwide, 1Time, Rossair, Solenta, NAC, etc etc. So if you say SAA is the worst offender then you are simply blaming all the other operators out there. Maybe the problem is that the poor R/T you hear at SAA are new hires who still have not dropped the poor habits they inherited at non-SAA operators prior to joining SAA!!!
The petty jealousy so evident on this forum that rears its head whenever someone mentions SAA is sickening. All SAA pilots came from your ranks once upon a time, and there were always those who we all worked with who ran down SAA and "would never want to work for SAA" because blah..blah...blah!! Funny how some of them now walk the halls of SAA flight ops. When it comes to the crunch, every professional pilot in SA would give anything to fly for SAA, and those who missed the boat due to age etc. acknowledge as much.
What does SAA offer?: Excellent salaries, excellent benefits, state-of-the-art aircraft, great destinations and a brilliant reputation operationally!! You would have to be a masochist to find working for SAA an unattractive career.
If you say you don't want to work for SAA, you are in denial, so reply to this post negatively and let us know by your making that reply who you are!!

[reptile]

.....every professional pilot in SA would give anything to fly for SAA.....

Not 100% correct. Off hand, I can think of at least one who is not interested - but then I might be the only one.

Living in denial?

Let’s see now:
1. Fantastic destinations - absolutely: if you like long-haul. On the other hand, if any sector longer than three hours bores the living crap out of you (not to mention listening to HF and staring at a black windscreen), the novelty wears off rather quickly.

2. Great salary - no doubt. That is of course if you don’t already earn a generous salary, and your roster is such that it allows you to run a successful business.

3. State of the art aircraft - always attractive. Would you make a change for that if you are already flying a new generation full EFIS jet?

4. Brilliant reputation operationally. Good thing you added the “operationally” bit!

5. Excellent benefits. Most large airlines already have those.

Now consider this:
1. Give up current command and slot in at the bottom of the list.

2. Spend hours on end (granted, not every day) in the cockpit with a stuck-up old fart that should be at home irritating the crap out of his family instead of his long suffering FO.

3. Wait a decade or more for upgrade - the official waiting period - while cadets and other pilots more junior pass you by in an attempt to make the airline demographically more acceptable to its political masters. (Not in large numbers just yet - but we'll wait and see. And "no", SAAPA will not be able to prevent it - despite what you might have to say to the contrary .)

4. Sit and watch as the airline slowy descends further into bankruptcy - despite aircrew working their collective butts off - thanks to management so incompetent it boggles the mind. (If you don’t think the plug is going to get pulled on the little circus one day, you might just be in denial.)

You would have to be a masochist to find working for SAA an unattractive career.
and
If you say you don't want to work for SAA, you are in denial, so reply to this post negatively and let us know by your making that reply who you are!!

I have no doubt that there are many pilots who would give their left nut for a job a SAA - but believing that all pilots want that is touch arrogant. I for one don’t think of SAA as an unattractive career. I simply do not find it attractive enough (by quite a bit, come think of it!).

Using your brilliant logic, I’m quite happy to accept that I’m “a masochist” and "in denial”.

P.S. I would give my left nut for a pair of the walk-on-water-shoes you gents get issued with - would make clearing the pool of leaves a hell of a lot easier!

[FlingWingKing]

Hey reptile

Care to tell us why you are not interested in flying for SAA?

I am REALLY curious to know what chaps like you have against being employed by SAA.

Apart from not having the best management team in the industry....oh, wait....just heard that the pilots at "once"time are a bit upset....and VB does not get invited to pub evenings....and Roger the Dodger...and...and...and...

...we get a lousy salary, get to fly 6 year old aircraft, stay in real crappy 5 star hotels...are forced to take at least 21 days leave of the 40 days allocated to us...have an "underhand" association fighting for beter working conditions etc...etc...etc...

...definitly NOT a company you want to work for......

[reptile]

Hey reptile

Care to tell us why you are not interested in flying for SAA?.....

Are you having trouble in the reading department?

Re-read my previous post, and then ask me a question that won't make burst into uncontrollable laughter.

[FlingWingKing]

Not having any trouble in the reading department mate!!

Would have helped if you posted your "full" reply the first time and not edited it while I was replying........

Sounds to me as if you are digging deep to find excuses for failing the interview.........

You made some valid points though....pity you have the wrong end of the "fact" stick....

Enjoy your command....maybe one day you will also be a "stuck-up old fart" irritating your FO because you have to fly AND run a bussiness so you can afford to retire at 65.....

Maybe you are right about the plug being pulled at our "little circus"....but if Zimbabwe can still find the means to operate a "little circus", I can assure you its gonna take a loooooong time before the powers at be is going to give up this "little circus" status symbol. Bad management we have had, so has many other airlines....maybe even the one you have sworn allegiance to....but SAA is still the best airline to work for inside the borders of good old SA....thats to say if you havent fled yet....

So, stay where you are and if you are REALLY interested in those shoes, send me a postal address and I'll send you some....compliments of the "circus"....

[reptile]

...Sounds to me as if you are digging deep to find excuses for failing the interview......

Nice try. Sounds like you're the one pi$$ing into the wind here. :ouch:

'Nough said. 121.5 Good day and good luck.

[jbayfan]

Fantastic destinations - absolutely: if you like long-haul. On the other hand, if any sector longer than three hours bores the living crap out of you (not to mention listening to HF and staring at a black windscreen), the novelty wears off rather quickly
Ever heard of Satcom, ACARS and TCAS?? No need to listen to HF or stare at black windscreens. And we have a bidding system so if you don't like long haul, bid domestic, and if you like weekends off, bid for the freighters, and if you don't like london, don't bid for the B744 etc. etc.
Great salary - no doubt. That is of course if you don’t already earn a generous salary, and your roster is such that it allows you to run a successful business
Reptile, without trying to give too much away, our entry level pilots make more than you do. We also get 40 days leave a year and a minimum average of 10 duty free days off per month. We are guaranteed 4 DFD's in a row on the long haul every month, which taken back to back gives us an additional 8 days "leave" every two months. And some of our pilots run very successful businesses on the side - when did you last frequent HiFlyerz?? AND BY THE WAY, we have proven that we are one of the most productive pilot groups in the world!!
State of the art aircraft - always attractive. Would you make a change for that if you are already flying a new generation full EFIS jet?
If it only seats 50 pax and doesn't have an autothrottle, YES!! But certainly a step up from a Dash 8!!
Brilliant reputation operationally. Good thing you added the “operationally” bit!
Shows I'm being honest!!
Excellent benefits. Most large airlines already have those
We have one of the most generous travel agreements in the world (a Captain gets six international flights for free in first class for his entire family every year (kids must be over sixteen to sit in first class) and FO's get the same in business class), albeit that these travel benefits were originally gained through salary sacrifices 12 years ago, a highly tax efficient pay package and a strong regulating agreement.
Give up current command and slot in at the bottom of the list
You'd be making more money and would eventually be able to give up having to run a business to make ends meet!!
Spend hours on end (granted, not every day) in the cockpit with a stuck-up old fart that should be at home irritating the crap out of his family instead of his long suffering FO
You'd be saving some poor SAX FO from being stuck with you and listening to you whinging about SAA!!
Wait a decade or more for upgrade - the official waiting period - while cadets and other pilots more junior pass you by in an attempt to make the airline demographically more acceptable to its political masters. (Not in large numbers just yet - but we'll wait and see. And "no", SAAPA will not be able to prevent it - despite what you might have to say to the contrary
Time to command is reducing to 11 years - and a large portion of our senior short range / junior long range Captains waited 17 years. And EE is not a threat - with the rapid expansion on the way the numbers will start right-sizing very soon.
Sit and watch as the airline slowy descends further into bankruptcy - despite aircrew working their collective butts off - thanks to management so incompetent it boggles the mind. (If you don’t think the plug is going to get pulled on the little circus one day, you might just be in denial.)

Management has now had a major wake up call and are finally making the tough decisions they should have years ago i.e. Expand the airline operationally to get the number of employees per aircraft right (more aircraft, more pilots and more flight attendants, LOTS MORE!!), get rid of surplus support staff employees, cut back on excessive non-essential duty travel (freebies), and various other initiatives which are currently confidential!! And with 2010 coming and a couple of LCC airlines taking huge strain with the introduction of Mango (mainly due to their inability to retain flight deck crew) but also with revenue being affected, SAA is in a strong position and things can only get better!!

And by the way, welcome Reptile, you are first on the denial list. Sorry to hear about you not making it through the SAA interview process though!!

[Deskjocky]

Jbay, Fling, guys chill- you are never going to convince the naysayers about SAA. These guys have a vested interest in seeing SAA go belly up- what they don’t realize is -that in the highly unlightly event of that ever happening- they will see none of the benefit. All that will happen is that the average crew member in this country will get more screwed as the owners (Unlce Vern, the terrible twosome, the Green tea in Bonaero Park) of the “successful” private airlines will by buy even older hunks of junk, fly them more and pay the crew less.

[SIC]

Too bad no airline in the world gives you all you want any more....

NTW/1Time etc dont offer the long term money/ big jets.
SAA offers that but political BS and affirmative abuse up the yingyang and uncertainty about the future of seniority etc.
Cathay offers all of the above mentioned positives - but you got to live with the pollution/millions of people and steak at R300/kg.
Emirates same except here its the heat and Dubai is so incredibly artificial that I certainly would think twice.

Then there is the issue of leaving or staying in SA - and a big one it is for us - purely because we have the CHOICE.

I am certainly concerned about whether SA will still be a place I would want to live in in 25 years when I retire- which influences a lot of the choices I make now.

So Jbay - its not nearly as simple as you - the defender of the apparent honour of SAA RT procedures - makes it out to be....and how's your RT ???

[beechbum]

Guys are we not moving off the topic here? This was initially started as a criticism of bad RT amongst the Mango guys and now has developed again into a slagging SAA match. Gents maybe start a thread of your own and you can have a really good go at comparing notes!!
In connection with RT tho' - it seems as if many have degenerated to talking like total morons on the frequencies within and around SA. We're supposed to be proffessionals not so? The only time we adjudge how proffessional one is, is when the trap door in ones head is opened. After all when I sit cruising to Cape Town, I don't know how good your SOP's are or how great your stick and rudder skills are.... so the only time I get the impression of some sort of proffesionalism is when you open your mouth!!! And that accounts for everyone across the board.not only our Mango colleagues!!!
Just my five cents worth.....by the way could you roast me medium rare if you don't agree. This roasting well done can be a little tough!!!!!!

Thats it over and out......roger roger!!!!!!.......ummm......ah...ahhh.......request ....ah......roger!!!!! ;)

[Q4NVS]

Well said Beechbum..:D

[whodunnit2]

Yip, the steaks cost R300/kg here. That's why we import huge amounts of the stuff when the odd JNB trip comes around!:}

Come on guys be nice. We're all just trying to make a living out of this game.

[Vasur]

Ja, must admit, I’ve heard some dodgey ones from our new fruit friends.
ATC’s are handling them well though.

On the first day of operation, a Mango pilot, after vacating the runway says: “err……. ground,…..errr this is …….a……. ………a…………….Tulca 512 ………errr……..gooday”.

ATC replies: “Okay, lets get this correct from the start, Call sign, taxi way, registration and parking bay. ”

Did I say ATC’s handling something well?:confused: :ooh:

[CALCULATOR]

Last night I believe a charter airline conducted a flight on behalf of Mango to Durban and back.On arrival in JHB about 40 pieces of luggage could not be found, and pax were mad as all hell.Pax were told bags were left in Durban and would arrive today!!!

Rumour has it from a reliable source when the rear hold of the DC 9 was opened this morning at the hangar guess what was inside??Yup 40 very lonely bags.
I think Equity does the handling for MANGO -this is really a poor show on MANGO AND EQUITY, somebody should have checked both holds?

[imustbemad]

The problem here is Equity. Anyone operating in and out of Oliver Catastrophy International will know that Equity have to be responsible for more delays to airlines than weather, check in and technical issues combined. They have a monopoly on service provision at the airport, and the airlines are powerless to do anything about it.
Having said that, its strange that the rear hold wasn't checked as this is normally the primary hold on the diesels for loading baggage and you would expect the ramp agent to check it, especially if he wasn't familier with the aircrafts cargo hold arrangements.
Teething problems will always occur with a new airline and you will probably find that the ground staff are still inexperienced.

[Jangys]

Equity Aviation Services handle all MANGO flights at all destinations. They were informed about the subsequent aircraft change.

Apparently, Equity did not have enough staff on duty to service the aircraft. Apron Control wanted the DC9 off the parking bay ASAP, thus the baggage accompanied the aircraft to the hangar.

The baggage was off-loaded this morning, and delivered to all the passengers by Equity Aviation Services.

Source: MANGO OPS

[Jangys]

Come on.....

Give the guys a break, good to hear some fimiliar SAA voices on MANGO RT though..

:D :D

[JetPark]

Oh dear - seems like there really are a few teething problems? Heard an irate pax on the radio last night in fact - boy were tehy rude about oor old Mango !

QUOTE: News Release just out

South Africa
Mango slips up - again
2006-12-12 10:01
Johannesburg - SAA's no-frills airline, Mango, slipped down the passenger popularity rating on Sunday after flight JE169 from Johannesburg to Cape Town was delayed by three hours.
Jan Bosman of Bellville, a passenger on the flight, said it was supposed to leave at 17:00.
But at that stage there were many passengers waiting to book in, with only three counters open to serve hundreds of Mango flyers.
"Because of these poor arrangements the plane finally departed at 20:00, after losing its place in the queue to take off," he said.
Bosman said the passengers had to wait for two hours on the tarmac, without air conditioning on board their plane.
"The cabin was very humid and after two hours, one of the passengers with low blood-sugar began to hyperventilate.
"Just before take-off, the captain decided not to fly with this weak passenger and that meant we finally took off at 20:00, three hours late."
Bosman said that Mango had made no effort to communicate with the passengers, or keep them updated on the estimated time of departure.
"Nobody had a clue. The air-hostesses were eventually in tears because the people blamed them, but they also didn't know what was going down."
Mango Airline has been under fire twice since it began operating less than a month ago.
The first time was when a flight had to return to Cape Town with a broken window and the second time was when 139 passengers on flight JE 154 from Cape Town to Johannesburg were delayed for more than eight hours.

Beeld

[TownshipDog]

Friend of mine was delayed last week due to the cabin crew getting on the wrong aircraft.
"It's the big orange one guys, you can't miss it..." :}

[putt for dough]

Heard from a friend who works for them, that last week
the groundcrew teamleader who is responsible for making
sure the correct boarding gates are given to ACSA,gave the
wrong gates and the Durban pax boarded the CT aerie and
vice versa. (ACSA put the gates they were told on the monitors.)
So in the end all the passengers were on the wrong planes
and all pax from both planes had to get off their respective
aircraft to board the other aerie.

Lank confusion :uhoh: :uhoh:

[FUG]

I believe that their ORTIA manager has resigned after being hospitalised for stress. Seems that there are more than 1 or 2 things that need to resolved.

[Q4NVS]

In no means do I condone or applaude the actions of Mango, but if you consider the following, it makes me smile:

For R169 you can not even drive to Cape Town (not even on a Vespa), that is apart from the fact that if you tried it with your ever efficient modern day Turbo Charged Diesel vehicle, it would still take you 12hrs+.

Now delay these consumers for half-an-hour, or even 4 hrs, suddenly they "regret" the whole decision to choose Mango etc etc.

Please man, stop this cheap Journalistic BS and start doing the job of real Journalists. It is the same apathy that has resulted in SA having 8 Springbok Rugby Coaches in almost as many years...

No wonder the O'Leary's of this world (aka Ryanair), has turned around and said:

"You pay peanuts for your tickets, so Shut-up or P*ss off!"

(And that is one of the most profitable Airlines - if not the - in the World today)

For the Journalists reading this post - I am in no way affiliated with Mango and no, nor are any of my "Family" members. :E

:ok:

[Beta Light]

A quick lesson in L.C.C.’s. If 5% of the pax paid for the tickets near the price you mentioned it would be very surprising.
We shopped around for Joburg – Cape Town return tickets on very short notice a month ago. Surprise surprise S.A.A. was the cheapest.

Had 3 friends travelling on 3 different flights with Mango and unfortunately all had bad experience for different reasons.

We all love aviation, but I think it is just a sad reality that it has just become a commodity , we are just another form of taxi service to the public.

[cseven]

Hey everyone!

Could any (SA) ATC pls give me the ICAO code for Mango?

Thanks so much! :)

[SAA201]

AFAIK its MNO, callsign "Tulca".

[Deskjocky]

Flight number designator: JE

[cseven]

Brilliant! Thanks a lot!

[vagabond 47]

Anyone out there got a phone/fax connection into Mango Pilot Recruitment..............seems like "mission impossible"

[Jangys]

try (011) 978-1230

[Deskjocky]

Far as I know the guys are not looking right now, think situation will change in a few of months when another 20 or so crew will be needed. It all depends when the next batch of aircraft come trough.

[vagabond 47]

Thanks for the info Guys.........much appreciated.

[manamana]

SAA201 is it "Tulco", or "Tulca"? And where did they get this callsign? What would be wrong with "Mango"?

[cseven]

As far as I know, "Mango" is the callsign of a Spanish airline. And it's definitely "Tulca", which is the name of the company SAA opened to run Mango.

[saywhat]

SAA201 is it "Tulco", or "Tulca"? And where did they get this callsign? What would be wrong with "Mango"?

It is TULCA, The Ultimate Low Cost Airline. The truth, I kid you not....................:eek:

[whiskeyflyer]

Totally Useless Low Cost Airline = TULCA

but I actually like them:)
but others include:
Such A Bloody Experience Never Again = SABENA
Take Another Plane = TAP

[Spitfire78]

Flew Mango from CPT recently ... just after take-off heard the pilot confirm the heading (presumably intended for ATC) over the P/A system. Could have sworn he used Tulco-xxx as the call sign

[cseven]

whiskeyflyer... are you sure it's not Try A Portuguese? (TAP) ;)

also:

ALITALIA - Always Late In Takeoff, Always Late In Arrival

[getz2]

taxpayer ultimately loose cash again! Tulca;)

[whiskeyflyer]

whiskeyflyer... are you sure it's not Try A Portuguese? (TAP) ;)


No thats LUFTHANSA
Let Us **** The Hostess As No Steward Available:E

only perverted people would not noticed its "Fire"

[Plumb Bob]

GARUDA (many years ago:) Good Airline Run Under Dutch Administration

[Bubesi]

How about....

Stupid Affirmitive Action

Sorry, couldn't resist :p