Carlisle

[cumbrianboy]

Hi,
I am just curious about Carlisle Airport. I know there are no flights from there, but does the airport have a terminal building, and what sort of state is the airfield in - does it have airfield lighting etc?

Thanks guys.

[DeanCross]

Carlisle.

Carlisle has basic facilities as a licenced airport.

Runway 25/07 licensed with an NDBDME Approach, runway edge lights, papis and simple approach lights on runway 25 (none on 07)

Runway 19/01 is on 938m long and only for light aircraft, licensed but with no runway lighting (except green centreline lights as its also the taxiway to the main runway).

They also have VDF.

They have a small terminal building, but has no scheduled service and the terminal is rarely used. There is a cafe bar oipen daily serving the usual airfield meals (although I would recommend the cumberland sausage!)

It provides an Approach and Tower service on 123.600 and has an ATIS (I think)

Fire catergory is generally 2 with 3 on request but higher may be available upon request.

The airport is making some progress in places such as a recent apron extension but does still need a lot of investment to bring it up to a good standard for schedules services.

Good little airfield for GA though, although possibly a little bit on the expensive side unless you negotiate a special rate.

Pvt me if you want more info

[VH-MTT]

http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/info.htm

you can get a fair bit of info on their website.

Once a Cumbrian, always a Cumbrian.

M.

[hushkit77]

The cumberland sausages are great right enough!! :D

[Maude Charlee]

The 'terminal building' is little more than a portakabin used for storing somebody else's second hand airport furniture. I think I have only ever seen it used once and that was for the pax on a private charter KingAir. Both of them.

[teifiboy]

I am sure British Midland took in one of their B737s with John Major on board during his election campaign a few years back. There were reports that a rather well known journalist/quiz show pundit was up to some naughty stuff on that flight too.

[The SSK]

In 1982 Air Ecosse started flights to Scotland and London and, the following year, the Isle of Man.
The airline suffered big financial losses and stopped flying from Carlisle in 1985. Daily flights to Heathrow were transferred to EuroAir, which withdrew from Carlisle Airport two years later.
Viking began flights to Jersey in 1985 but went into receivership in 1987. That same year Air Furness briefly revived Isle of Man flights but the company soon went bust. That saw the end of passenger flights from Carlisle for six years.
Between 1979 and 1994 the airport cost Carlisle tax payers more than £3.5 million.
New Air restarted a London service with flights to Stansted in 1993, but called in the receivers after just two months, owing the city council £28,000.
Lakeside Northwest started another London service but ran up huge losses and collapsed by the end of the year.
In 1994 Geordie Air Travel planned a London service to Docklands Airport, but cancelled it due to lack of bookings. The company warned that nobody would ever be able to run a London service.
In 1995 Lewis Holidays planned to run Saturday flights to Jersey but pulled out a week before commencement, blaming the “atrocious state” of the UK holiday market.
In 1996 Cumbria county councillors refused to give financial backing to Belgian airline VLM, to operate four flights a day to London City airport.
I can also remember Dan-Air flying Ambassadors Newcastle-Carlisle-Isle of Man, also Derby Airways (later BMI) Dakotas, presumably also IoM. And Autair Heralds Heathrow-Carlisle-Dundee.

[Fried_Chicken]

Didn't somebody once propose a CAX-LTN (or was it LCY) with a 146?

If the facilities at Carlisle were improved, maybe a decent route for Scot or Ryanair (CAX- London LTN/STN/LCY) as not much of major airports up that way (Glasgow & Pretswick to the North), Newcastle to the East & Manchester to the South. Flying would certianly beat the current Virgin trains Carlisle to London train service.

FC

[Jamesair]

The original Manx Airlines used to operate an Isle of Man - Carlisle service...I think it must have been in the 50/60's era.

[LTNman]

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/carlisle-airport-news-160606.htm

Freight company Eddie Stobart's boss, Andrew Tinkler, has unveiled £20m plans to transform Carlisle Airport into an international transport hub. The millionaire haulage tycoon wants to make the airport the base for a newly formed airfreight company called Stobart Air - and bring international passenger travel to Cumbria.

The plans include laying a new runway and building a multi-million pound departure and arrivals lounge. Mr Tinkler said: 'If we can get the infrastructure right, the airport could put Carlisle and Cumbria back on the map.'

A new-look airport would allow freight to be flown into Carlisle and then transported across the country by road using Eddie Stobart wagons. And once the infrastructure is in place, Mr Tinkler believes passenger flights would also be on the cards.

Mr Tinkler said: 'There has been a lot of talk about the length of the runway but 1800 metres is long enough for freight and passenger travel. The runway at Blackpool airport, for example, is 1870 metres long, while London City Airport, which can take up to 100-seater aircraft, is just 1199 metres.'

He identified two options to bring the Crosby-on-Eden airfield's runway up to international standards. One option would be to strengthen and resurface the existing 1,800 metre runway, which badly needs upgrading. The second option would be to build an extended, second runway which would run parallel to the first.

[chevvron]

Used to have regular scheduled services to/from Heathrow in late '60s. (Autair Herald as far as I remember)

[daz211]

anyone have any news on (cax) carlisle eddie stobbart bought it
last i heard he wanted to update it and start fraight and passenger services how is he getting on it would be good to see fr or ezy start
a route from stn its a much needed north west airport

[Anthony Graham]

Hi, I have attached a quote from our local Friday paper as to the upto date news about Carlisle Airport.

All wording is borrowed from 'The Cumberland News / News & Star'


A link can also be found here http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=389844




Airline: Cumbria flights ‘an option’

Published on 14/07/2006
By Mark Preskett

RYANAIR’S UK sales boss said CarlisleAirport could be an option for the low-cost carrier if the right infrastructure at the airfield was in place.

On a visit to the north east this week, Karl Hogstadius said Ryanair looked at an airport’s infrastructure – such as whether it can take larger 737 planes – and if the airline can negotiate a low-cost deal when deciding which airports to fly from.

CarlisleAirport was recently taken over by Cumbrian businessman Andrew Tinkler, who has unveiled £20 million plans to turn it into an international transport hub.

Mr Tinkler aims to make the Crosby-on-Eden airfield a base for an airfreight company, Stobart Air, and to bring in international passenger flights.

Speaking to the News & Star, Mr Hogstadius said: “We’re currently in negotiation with 50 airports across Europe and we always look at the same things – whether the infrastructure is in place to take larger planes and if we can negotiate a low-cost deal.

“We also look at the potential in the catchment area surrounding the airport.

“If Carlisle can offer the right things, we would consider talking with them.”

CarlisleAirport currently has a 12.5 tonne weight restriction on it due to the quality of the existing runway.

Mr Tinkler plans to either build a new, longer runway which would run parallel to the existing one, or upgrade the current runway.

This would allow larger 737 and freight planes to fly in and out of the city airfield.

Irish carrier Ryanair said it was continuing its rapid expansion programme having started flying from eight new airports in the past six months.

Mr Hogstadius said talks are taking place with both UK and European airfields about future tie-ins.

According to accounts filed at Companies House, CarlisleAirport made an annual loss of more than £1 million in the year to July 30, 2004.

The figures were revealed in the accounts of Norbrook Laboratories, which was formerly the parent company of the airport before former owner Lord Ballyedmond, of CorbyCastle, Great Corby, sold the airfield to Mr Tinkler.

The haulage tycoon’s plans for CarlisleAirport include laying a new runway and building a multi-million pound departure and arrivals lounge which has access from the A689.

Regards:ok:

AG

[fly_high]

I visited the Carlisle air museum (several very interesting exhibitions in the museum by the way) last year and went over to the airport to have a look round. There was an RAF SeaKing crew in having some lunch, they were on their way to an air show, as was the Utterly Butterly wing-walking team - quite a novelty to see them. The bar area is underneath the control tower and everybody seemed friendly enough. If you go into the "beer garden" you get a very good view of the runway and also the approaches. I had a look in the window of the terminal and it was so quaint! There are 3 (I think) check in desks, maybe half a dozen baggage trolleys and 4 or so proper airport bench seats. It's like somebody has shrunk a terminal to fit inside the portable building. Unfortunately since there were no commercial flights operating I couldn't get a closer view but I would imagine the facilities would have to be upgraded if a regular passenger service became a reality.

[Buster the Bear]

http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/business/viewarticle.aspx?id=438579

[ecj]

Another false dawn ??

Either resurfacing the main runway with an acceptable PCN, or starting a fresh with meaningfull TODA etc is serious money.

Does the business case justify it, even in these boom times for aviation travel using LCCs.

The best hope Carlisle has is probably with FLYBE once things settle down in 2007.

[parkfell]

Let us hope it is not another false dawn. There have been a few in the last 30 years.
Resurfacing with new foundations will not be easy - it is however critical for success.
West Cumbria must be one of the most remote parts of England for air transport and should welcome the propect of venture.

[sweet home ncl]

Purley speculative but if all goes ahead what could be made to work and by whom? I'd like to think

Flybe:
Belfast city and Dublin daily and Gatwick 3 X daily.

KLM:
Daily to Amsterdam.

I.e another Norwich

[ProcATCO]

As one of the previous airport managers at Carlisle (no comment about the previous owner!!) I am delighted that things seem to be going forward there.

There have been plans for the development for a number of years and these have been added to, expanded, modified by many people including myself during my time there.

The runway in its present state can just about take a small busjet and that is the limit. The ATC needs completely revamping as does the airfield lighting, RFFS, etc. etc.....

My regards to all concerned and especially the staff - those that are left anyway!!

:ok:

[Cactus99]

Think about it guys?

MAN about 2 hours drive away, NCL about the same and GLA about 1hr 30 mins away.

There is not enough potential demand, therefore there will not be a tremendous will to get Carlisle up to scratch for commercial flights! It would cost one hell of a lot of money which simply wouldnt be justified. its a nice idea though!

[SWBKCB]

From the Carlisle News and Star:
HAULAGE giant Eddie Stobart is to switch its entire operation to Carlisle airport, a move that will result in the city’s Kingmoor Park complex increasing by 17 acres. Kingmoor boss Brian Scowcroft this week sealed a deal to buy Eddie Stobart’s Kingstown Industrial Estate site from Andrew Tinkler, owner of parent company WA Developments. The deal will also push forward plans to transform the airport into an international freight and passenger terminal, which is considered key to the county’s economic future. The Eddie Stobart site, which borders Kingmoor, will give the industrial estate an extra 328,433 sq ft of warehouse space.
Mr Tinkler, chairman of WA Developments and chief executive of Eddie Stobart said: “We are very happy to have concluded the sale of our Kingstown facility to Kingmoor Park Properties. The proceeds from the sale will strengthen our two-year strategy to develop Carlisle Airport into an international freight and passenger terminal and will allow us to re-locate all of our businesses there. The new infrastructure will hopefully serve to attract other businesses into the region. The investment reinforces our commitment to Cumbria, which I believe will massively benefit the local economy. The relocation will tie in with the two-year redevelopment of the airport which is currently underway.”
Kingmoor Park chief executive Tony Goddard said: “The completion of this deal couldn’t be more timely given the recent good news about the Carlisle Northern Development Route (CNDR). We have created a serious amount of jobs at Kingmoor Park because it is an excellent location. The realisation of the CNDR enables us to build on that advantage and develop Kingmoor Park to its fullest extent. Our development land and our new acquisition adjacent to Kingmoor Park East will benefit enormously from a strengthened transport infrastructure. We can also kickstart our hub project for retail, office, restaurant and leisure facilities, which has already received planning permission but needed confirmation of the CNDR.”
Under the deal, Kingmoor Park has bought a 125-year ground lease from WA Developments. The freehold of the site is still owned by Carlisle City Council. Mr Tinkler, who already has an executive jet based at the airport, took over Eddie Stobart Ltd with his business partner William Stobart in 2003.

[Wellington Bomber]

How close is Blackpool to Carlisle, I am sure it is closer than Manchester, Newcastle or Glasgow

Plus Blackpool has had dealings with freight operations before, i.e Emerald, so why spend copious amounts of money on Carlisle when Blackpool is down the road

[The SSK]

How close is Blackpool to Carlisle, I am sure it is closer than Manchester, Newcastle or Glasgow

Plus Blackpool has had dealings with freight operations before, i.e Emerald, so why spend copious amounts of money on Carlisle when Blackpool is down the road

According to Michelin, distances from Carlisle city to airports are:
Blackpool 162km 1h46
Glasgow 164km 1h54
Manchester 205km 2h13
Newcastle 96km 1h15

[sweet home ncl]

I think CAX dose has potential, if a london flight was to start (hopefully not by someone like eastern withtheir business only prices) it could be marketed as a short break destination owing to its proximity to the lakes and south west scotland. No one is going to fly london to NCL, hire a car drive 60 miles along the A69 to carlisle then a further 20 miles into the lakes for a night in a B&B, but an hour from LGW or LTN might be tempting.

[pug]

It could at least grow to the size of HUY given the size of catchment, which cant be a bad thing. Freight could pay for the runway and pax facilities.

[jabird]

"KLM:
Daily to Amsterdam."

Wouldn't KL expand into other, more established UK airports long before CAX, if they expand at all?

SEN has been rumoured. Surely BFS, INV, DSA etc would all make more sense than CAX?

NWI-BHD had to be pulled - CAX might be a shorter sector, but is there demand? A London feeder might work if onward connections were also available, but this would really need to be LHR, and I can't see that happening without a 3rd runway at the very least. Compare the WCML with current LON security lines, and I think potential is limited further. Leisure opportunities tend to be south of Carlisle, and therefore more easily accessible by train to Penrith, Oxenholme etc.

If the freight flights mean that the runway upgrade is viable in its own right, then there have to be some routes which might work, but I can't see passenger flights on their own providing much ROI. Besides DUB, would somewhere like SOU work, or are we still looking pretty thin at both ends?

[niknak]

Lets get some sense of perspective here.

1) The runway, navigational facilities and infrastucture at Carlisle are in an extremely piss poor state. To cope with freight on a major scale the runway needs to be rebuilt and lengthened by 300m, not just resurfaced. New Lighting and an ILS would have to be installed, along with refurbishment and expansion of ground handling facilities, and , if you want pax operations, the terminal - a total bill of at least £25m or more.

2) There is insufficiant demand within the local catchment area for any scheduled passenger services from Carlisle, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that despite Newcastle being 60 or so miles away, they'll always offer a better deal to anyone who wishes to travel to London, Europe or beyond.
There is now a reasonable, albeit expensive train service to London, and although quicker, there'd never be the financial justification for a scheduled service to London - even if it was to Heathrow or Gatwick for interline purposes.

All credit for Stobart's new owners for mooting the idea, but I doubt they'd be able to raise or justify the investment to bring the place up to a standard where potential freight or passenger airlines would even look at the place.

[Stan Woolley]

Defeatist Nonsense

Nobody has even mentioned Dumfries and surrounding area but there are two families on our row of 6 houses alone that travel regularly to Carlisle/Dumfries.I would travel more by air if there was a choice.

I have no doubt whatsoever that a regular service South would do just fine given half a chance.

I'd probably move there too for a decent flying job.Anybody know of anything? ( Experienced jet Capt.)

[LGS6753]

There is virtually no chance of Carlisle being developed for freight. It's in entirely the wrong place. Most freight into the UK (and more arrives than leaves) is heading for consumers. Most of them don't live in the Borders/Lake District (only the fortunate few). The UK's freight hubs will always be south rather than north, east rather than west.

[airvanman]

Oban is under development at the moment. How about a 2 daily OBN-CAX- London and back? Two new(ish) airports get a London service in one trip! DND-CAX-BRS another? Those sorts of routes could give Carlisle something to build on for starters?:ok:

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

Cumbrian tourist officials have backed plans that would see a new terminal building and improvements to the runway at Carlisle airport. At present the airport is used by light aircraft and for training flights, but since being bought by Andrew Tinkler, the chairman of Eddie Stobart, the Cumbrian-based haulage firm, plans have been submitted to improve facilities.

The BBC REPORTS that Cumbrian Tourism chairman, Eric Robson, would support any improvements as he said it was vital the region had an international standard airport claiming Cumbria was missing out claiming "Devon and Cornwall have overtaken us with air links to many UK cities".


Last year Ryanair said it would be interested in operating flights from Carlisle as long as the infrastructure, customer base and pricing made it viable.

The Airport is now run/owned By Stobart Air Ltd
who run/own Eddie Stobart (Road Haulage).
Carlisle Airport

Stobart Air Ltd
Carlisle Airport
Carlisle
Cumbria
CA6 4NW

[SWBKCB]

Well it would be unlikely that the local Tourism organisation would be against improving access, and similarly Ryanair are going to make the right sort of noises when approached by the local media.

Still an awful long way to go (and a lot of money to be spent) before we see any thing significant happening.

[20-17]

Stobart Air Services, the owners of Carlisle Airport have submitted plans for a £25 million investment including new runway and terminal buildings to commence passenger flights to London, Belfast, Dublin and Amsterdam to start with.
The airport is situated approx 40 mins by road from Keswick and the Northen Lakes and 20 minutes up the M6 to Gretna and the Scotish Boarders.
Is this seen as a good plan or will pax use the facilities at NCL, only 45 minutes drive away?
I think the airport has a great regional future and low cost carriers could see all year round traffic. I could be similar to NQY, EXT, INV if the plan comes off.
Good luck

[NutLoose]

Seems to be moving the main runway too.......... think that will bring the approach off past the village of Houghton and to the North of Carlisle, and Brampton the other way.

Details here

http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/documents/Brochure.pdf

[cortilla]

Can someone explain why they want to build a new runway and reorientate it by 3.5 degrees instead of just resurfacing the existing one. (the new runway would be of similar length so that can't be the reason). Anyone care to punt a guess as to why.

[NutLoose]

Possibly as a requirement to getting planning permission, as it will shift the approach paths away from the city to the north and the town Brampton too

[Leofric]

Possibly because the bearing strength of the existing runway is insufficient?

[10 DME ARC]

Present NDB to 07 goes through or very close to D510?

[GrahamK]

Easier building a new runway rather than sorting out the current runway for commercial flights?

[Belboy]

Don't know why you would the orientation would be changed other than to avoid built up area and negate the environmental impact but the PCN on the existing runway was very low indeed making it unusable for all but the smallest aircraft.

[take-off]

Wonder what airlines ,they will get flying from there?, Guess Jet2 and other locos will be looking at it ? Would J2 do better there than blk,being futher away from man.

[groundhand]

Take-off, suggest you go and take some reality pills and look at a map with population markings.

Fantastic that there is a development plan but I struggle to see where the passenger loads are going to come from to make any route commercially viable. You get stuck between potential loads and required frequency to make a route viable.

I can't see any of the major locos adding to their current operational bases at NCL, GLA, BLK and MAN.

However, never say never!

[Code 100]

If you read the airport web document hyperlinked earlier in this thread it makes it clear that they are not after the likes of FR and EZY. They know their catchment area limitations, and possibly how to try and appease the green lobby (if that is ever possible!). Therefore, the likes of Eastern and the odd flybe smaller a/c may have a chance.

[NutLoose]

Ryan Air will no doubt use it and call it Manchester or Birmingham on their routes ;) after all they can take you to some cities abroad and you don't even land in the same Country I believe.:}

[take-off]

GRoundhand`
Not everyone wants to trek down the m6/m61 car park,seeing as 2 weeks last friday, it took me 6 hours to get from blackpool to Evesham(Thats in the midlands -just incase you don't have a map handy!!) tripcomp on car gave an average speed by time i got to bhm of 33, all im saying is maybe on some of the more pop destinations jet2 or who ever could do odd flight or 2 a week, not saying its goin to turn into heathrow over nite!!!:}
Rite off to take several'chillpills' , and out tomorw for a newkeyboard with a space bar that works!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

[caxsunray]

Lots of reasons to re-align - old runway shot to hell, sub-base, surface, infringements, and, not least, putting in ILS on runway 25 has approach design issues some 9 miles out on the edge of the RAF Spadeadam danger area. Also need to continue to operate while construction underway. Runway will be code 4d and about 1830m total length - anticipate aircraft types such as J41; ATR 42/72; Q400. Perhaps up to 5 rotations per day - 2 to London (Luton? Stansted?) - can't afford slots elsewhere, at least not to start with. perhaps DUB BHD SOU. AMS would be good for interlining med & long-haul.
Comments on pax are spot on - small catchment area will never deliver 75% loads for B737 ops, so no low cost carriers here. Planning application will go in late September. Hope for result by end of year. Works commence early 2008 and up and running early 2009. Very tough timescale. www.carlisleairport.co.uk (http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk) has lots of detail. Wish us luck!

[SOTV]

The catchment area could be a lot bigger than people believe. I live near Carlisle and the number of taxi firms that advertise fares to GLA/PIK/NCL/EDI/MAN/MME starting at 150 return take up a few pages in the phone book.

Unfortunately I drive trains for a living and the first class return fare from Carlisle to Euston is well over 350.

Surely some carrier could do a Mon/Fri out and back with a 70 seater and undercut the Virgin hegemony.

[SWBKCB]

From todays Carlisle News & Star

PLANS to transform Carlisle Airport into a passenger and freight hub were given initial approval by councillors today. A special meeting of the city council’s development control committee ruled it was ‘minded to approve’ the plan, by Stobart Air, subject to conditions.

The committee will meet again next Friday to hammer out requirements it will need operators to sign up to before giving full consent. The plan will then go to the Government Office North West which will decide whether to call a public inquiry.

Stobart Air boss Andrew Tinkler said he was “pleased” with the decision. During the meeting, residents of nearby Irthington urged the council to refuse permission, saying the plan would endanger lives in the village and create extra traffic, noise and pollution.

Airport director Richard Gordon put the case for the airport, saying it would help bring jobs and prosperity to the area. Councillors ruled they were ‘minded to approve’ the plan, but stressed they could change their mind at next week’s meeting.

[parkfell]

Pleased to hear that progress is being made to provide an adequate airport.

Let us hope that a public enquiry is NOT required as this will delay matters, and perhaps put the whole project in jeopardy.

:)

[nick b]

Have Manx 2 ever thought about CAX? Perhaps a 2 x daily CAX-IOM-BHD/BFS with the LET could work?

Regards

[niknak]

I still cannot see how this will be a sustainable investment for Stobart Air, unless they get at least 80% of the funding from the Government or the EEC (as Peel did at Finningly), they'll never get their money back.
In fact they'd be quite justified in closing the airport and earn more revenue from plan 2 (the business/retail park that waits in the wings).

Richard Gordon? No relation to the Lydd "Gordon Clan" I suppose?:suspect:

[SWBKCB]

Been following this quite closely in the local press, and no mention of any outside funding. Stobart are looking to relocate their HQ to the site, but I can't see the business case for the aviation developments.

[Jamesair]

Stobart may be looking at the air freight side of things bearing in mind they have a huge trucking operation.

[beamender99]

Withdrawal threat to airport plan

A company which planned to construct a new airport in Carlisle has threatened to withdraw the proposals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7330244.stm

[SWBKCB]

Stobart not happy with the conditions being imposed by the council (and the way they have been imposed. Councils full conditions here:

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/council_s_conditions_in_full

[parkfell]

Here we go again....City Council at its best.

63 conditions are listed by the council for the project.

Some are sensible. During the constructon phase [31 et seq] which accord with good practice. Avoidance of pollution etc

Some will be imposed by EU law which the council have no option but to include. The tree huggers would start a legal challenge.

I could go on.......but the bottom line is that you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs.

A measure of practicality needs to be applied to achieve the ultimate goal.
This is not some form of academic exercise to produce a submission as part of the final year degree course in planning matters.

The council need to appreciate that this project will generate wealth and jobs for the area and need to take a pragmatic approach and sit down and negotiate. Otherwise as sure as night follows day, this golden [and final?] opportunity will melt away.

And finally think about the airport staff...they must feel somewhat "frustrated"

:ugh:

[Yak97]

No wonder they are upset with the conditions, including:

58) A survey for badgers shall be undertaken by an appropriately qualified ecologist not more than 14 days before the works hereby approved commence and the results shall be submitted to the Local Planning Authority for approval. Should evidence of badgers be found, the applicants shall ensure that all statutory procedures must be followed according to the relevant legislation protecting this species. In addition, in terms of site management obligations any holes excavated during development work shall be covered at night to prevent badgers from falling into them and being injured;

[SWBKCB]

Makes you wonder how the badger has lasted so long without our help in stopping them falling down holes...

[caxsunray]

I don't think there is any airport, big or small, with commercial flights, that makes money on the aviation side of the business - income from landing fees, hangerage, fuel sales, pax handling only. The fixed costs (do you know what air traffic controllers and firemen are paid?) are so high. They make it elsewhere - car parks, retail concessions, rentals and other on-airport developments. That's what we will do - get other group companies, Stobart and WA developments to relocate here and pay us (good commercial) rent to balance the books - then it makes sense.

We've met again with the Council - about 10 conditions to be resolved, fingers crossed

[niknak]

Caxsunray.

Correct, airports make very little money from landing fees.

As you say, the vast majority of profit is made from concessions within the terminal areas and that takes passengers, hundreds of 1000s of them and hundreds of 1000s of passengers each year is something that Carlisle Airport is not going to get under any circumstances.
Carlisle just doesn't have the customer base and the catchment area is well served by the likes of Newcastle and Glasgow for the most competetive/profitable passenger routes.

Money can be made from freight, but not enough to justify the proposed expansion of the airport.

Given that planning permission lasts between 3 and 5 years, I suspect that Stobart are going to use the planning permission approval to expand their road freight transport operations at Carlisle airport, but make none of the much lauded improvements to the airport itself.

Eventually, they would perfectly justified in saying that the airport expansion plan is after all, no longer viable, but they will continue to expand the road freight/industrial area into the existing airport infrastructure, thereby guaranteeing a major contribution to the local economy (which the airport itself never will).

[caxsunray]

You're right - up to a point. The airport loses over £1/2m per annum - we've never hidden the fact. Rental income from Stobart and WAD being here will be about £1m. We'll also have increased revenue from the limited but incremental pax operations we will have on top of the current 23,000ATMs and yes, we will be pursuing air freight business very hard. And we'll get some more from the car parks, and other terminal facilities.

If the planning goes through, we will not be allowed NOT to improve the aviation facilities and do the Stobart etc parts by themselves. And typically, planning consent has a 3 year time on it - that's three years to START the consented development. We won't take three years as we must move Stobarts here in 2009 (their current lease expires then) and our proposal is to start the runway, new AGL, ILS etc in month 7 from the start. We've spent about £1m on the whole planning process so far - if we get consent, then not doing any part of it is unthinkable.

In 2005, 118,000 people drove from our catchment area to MAN and NCL in order to fly to London, about half of them to onward connect. About 100,000 take the train to London. More by car and coach. We have no illusions about numbers, but there is demand. And who knows - a Stobart branded joint venture operation? What other airline has a link to a signed up fan club of 30,000 - all of whom I'm sure would long to fly, even just once, in a Stobart branded aircraft!

[BigBoeing]

What kind of freight aircraft would be feasible to operate from there? Or allowable under the planning conditions? As I see the largest passenger aircraft planned are JS31/41 and similar. Would there be any plans to install radar there as well?

[caxsunray]

We're anticipating starting PAX operations with J41 or similar - if demand is there we can move up to ATR 42/72, Dash 8 Q400. For freight, again, ATR, Bae 146. The limiting factor at the end of the day will be runway declared distances, probably under 1600m (TORA) and 1400m (LDA). ILS on runway 25 only and no radar.

[virginblue]

In 2005, 118,000 people drove from our catchment area to MAN and NCL in order to fly to London, about half of them to onward connect. About 100,000 take the train to London. More by car and coach.

But isn't the problem that those who drive to MAN or NCL have the choice of going to LHR, LGW, STN, LCY and SOU from there? A service from Carlisle would only be able to serve one of these markets and thus limit the number of connections (particularly as a LHR would not be possible). The most attractive route for business people (LCY) would be rather useless for leisure pax and vice versa. In the end, a lot of people would still be driving to MAN and NCL despite a LON service from Carlisle.

[ELondonPax]

Virginpax makes some valid points - I don't think anyone is under any illusion about the challenges.

On the other hand - if you don't need to get back and forth between London and Cumbria - you may underestimate just how difficult that journey is.
Despite upgrade works that have been going on for (what seems like) decades, the weekend train service is a joke. An air service to (any) London airport would be a leap forward.

[niknak]

Caxsunray,

I still can't see how it can be commercially viable, but I wish everyone the best of luck and hope it works out.

[bad bear]

which 10 restrictions have been removed?

bb

[SOTV]

permission granted and its off to government office north west now, maybe diggers on site within 4-6 weeks if it all goes to plan.


Just a caveat on that.

Stobarts quoted as saying that if it goes to a public enquiry then its off to Widnes. No questions, can not afford the delay.

Lets hope the GONW has Carlisle's best interests at heart. Plenty of people that work there will consider Widnes to be in the North West.

Here's hoping we get the all clear.

:ok:

[richatom]

Carlisle Airport does have an aviation future - as long as Cumbria continues to develop econcomically.

Maybe if CUFC make it to the Championship it will happen.

[Ballymoss]

Maybe if CUFC make it to the Championship it will happen.......................

:ugh::D:ugh::D:ugh::D:ugh::D:ugh::D................and relax

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

[SWBKCB]

From the News and Star:

Communities Secretary Hazel Blears has called a public inquiry to examine plans to redevelop Carlisle Airport. Her decision means that the £35m scheme for a new runway, terminal, hangars, warehousing and offices will be delayed for around 12 months. And it raises doubts as to whether the proposals, which include scheduled flights to London and other destinations, will go ahead at all. Airport owner Andrew Tinkler is understood to be considering his position. He could walk away, especially if haulage group Eddie Stobart pulls out of plans to move its Carlisle HQ to the airport. The firm may go to Cheshire instead, taking 175 jobs out of Cumbria. Mrs Blears has called an inquiry because, she says, the scheme raises planning issues of “more than local importance” and because it “may conflict with national policies on important matters”.

Airport manger Richard Gordon said: “We have to examine what the [Secretary of State’s] letter says, what are the issues and understand how and why they may have to be addressed. Then we have to review and understand our options. We are going to take a few days to go through that process. We will take legal advice and talk to our consultants.” He added: “We are bitterly disappointed at this turn of events, given we had very high-level support. We had the backing of the Northwest Regional Development Agency, Cumbria Tourism, the CBI, MPs, the county and city councils, and the Chamber of Commerce. It’s a kick in the teeth.”

Carlisle City Council approved Mr Tinkler’s planning application in April but had to refer it to the Government Office North West because allowing offices on the airport breaches policy. Officials confirmed yesterday that Mrs Blears will make a final decision after the inquiry. The Planning Inspectorate must now appoint an inspector to chair the hearing, which should start within 22 weeks.

The inquiry will consider:


Whether there is justification for “non-airport activities” in such a rural location;
If there are sites nearer Carlisle that could house the offices and warehouses;
If the airport at Crosby-on-Eden is accessible by “all means of transport”;
If it would “contribute to sustainable economic development, protecting the natural and historic environment”;
If there would be a “significant impact” on archaeological features, in particular Hadrian’s Wall.

[niknak]

Out of the 5 principles the Government list which the Public Enquiry will examine, no 4 must be the most relevant:

"If it would contribute to sustainable economic development..."

Additionally, Mr Tinkler's threat to walk away to Cheshire speaks volumes for his true intentions behind the project - In common with Cumbria, the true catchment area of Cheshire is already well served by regional and international airports and has no need for another airport or air freight provider.

Scheduled passenger flights to anywhere from Carlisle are a pipe dream and simply not economically viable and, to my mind, especially in the current economic climate, there is no economic case for Carlisle Airport to be redeveloped.
It is still my opinion that the driving principle behind any development there is to build the business facility first, delay any investment in the airport side for a considerable period of time then postpone it indefinately.

It's a fact that, whilst Carlisle Airport may be very convenient as development site for road freight, there are also other sites in the area which would and could be developed at a similar cost.
I suspect that Stobart got the Airport at a good price, the developer's hoped that they'd be able to get away with non aviation development there without too much scrutiny and they've been caught with their pants down.

[rufus.t.firefly]

Anyone know if Stobarts ever considered using Blackpool ?? Lots of defunct freight aircraft sitting on the ramp there !!!!!:ugh:

[Waiting In The Weeds]

niknak, whilst your thesis is interesting it has no bearing on the current situation.

Regards,
WITW.

[niknak]

WITW

Having been closely involved in airport planning processes before, I can assure you that the planning inspectors enter the process completely impartial, but their major and unequivecal remits when deciding if airport expansion is justified are:

1) the the economic justification for aviation related development compared with existing aviation infrastructure in the region along with enviromental concerns.
2) how much non aviation development the developer is applying for now, their stated position if their appeal fails, and
3) how much non aviation development could take place in the future.

It is significant that no one, not even the airport developers have commisioned surveys or investigated the cost per passenger of, for example, schedule flights to LCY, LHR or LGW, or the revenue they'd attract from air freight flown.
Perhaps they haven't done this because they know, as does anyone in the industry, that the investment required in getting the infrastucture at Carlisle back up to scratch for use by medium size jet/large turbo prop a/c, is around £25m, taking ino account the new runway, nav aids etc.

It's money that Stobart would have to justify to their shareholders, the City and to the Government - 3 out of those 3 would have grave doubts.

[cuban missile]

:ugh:it`s a pity stobard bought carlisle, HUY as every thing he needs :ok:

[SWBKCB]

No action over illegal charter flights from Carlisle Airport claims
Last updated 14:39, Wednesday, 05 November 2008

The Civil Aviation Authority is taking no action following an investigation into claims that illegal charter flights took off from Carlisle Airport. The allegations centred on two aircraft operated by WA Developments International, a company which is owned by Cumbrian businessmen Andrew Tinkler and William Stobart.

The authority looked into whether the aircraft – a jet and a helicopter – were hired for private charters without an air operator’s certificate. This is a criminal offence that carries with it a fine of up to £5,000 and, in the most serious cases, a prison sentence. WA Developments International denied the claims. And yesterday the Civil Aviation Authority confirmed that no action was being taken against the company. A spokesman said: “The investigation was concluded and no further action was taken.”

Stobart's Andrew Tinkler sued for libel by ex-employee
EXCLUSIVE By Julian Whittle Last updated 10:11, Friday, 07 November 2008

Carlisle businessman Andrew Tinkler is being sued for libel. Chief executive of Stobart Group and owner of Carlisle Airport faces a claim for general, exemplary and aggravated damages. Peter Elliott, an aviation consultant from Appleby, says he has “suffered distress, injury and unlawful multiple attacks upon his personal and professional integrity”. He has issued proceedings in the High Court in Newcastle.

Mr Tinkler denies the allegations, which he argues are “irrelevant and scurrilous” and should be struck out. Mr Elliott alleges Mr Tinkler told the Civil Aviation Authority he had been sacked when in fact he withdrew his consultancy services in protest at “criminal aviation activities” going on at Carlisle Airport.

The legal claim says Mr Tinkler used his private jet and helicopter “to run an illegal airline for hire”, carrying directors of Tesco and Coca Cola without insurance cover “and on at least one occasion for Coca Cola without even a pilot’s licence”.

The claim also says that:


Mr Tinkler gave the Civil Aviation Authority false information that Mr Elliott flew a helicopter without the correct flying licence;
Mr Tinkler’s agent, airport director Richard Gordon, told a radio journalist Mr Elliott was “wired up to the moon”;
Mr Tinkler branded him a liar during a live web chat on the website of The Cumberland News’s sister newspaper, the News & Star


Mr Elliott is demanding an apology (from Mr Tinkler) in the News & Star so that he can “regain his personal dignity that has been taken away by the defendant’s actions”. As well as damages, he wants Mr Tinkler to pay his legal costs.

Documents were served at Mr Tinkler’s home at Newby East on October 20. He has now responded. He argues that the claim should be struck out because the allegations lack detail and Mr Elliott has used the wrong civil procedures for libel.

He says the Civil Aviation Authority investigated the allegations about unlicensed and uninsured flights and decided to take no action. And he says that he cannot be held responsible for statements made by Mr Gordon who is not, as Mr Elliott claims, his agent. The legal papers are now being considered by District Judge Ian Atherton. A date for the hearing has yet to be set.

Also, rumours on the Southend thread that Stobarts are looking to buy SEN.

[Baltasound]

Stobarts were folded into the Westbury Property Group last year; whose main function is to develop Business and Warehousing facilities.

It would not surprise me if in the end the airport is converted into a nice big business park.

The WCML should be sorted by the December tt change and with HS2,3 and 4 on the table journey times by train to London could be cut by up to 1/3rd.

Best of luck....

[Red Four]

Looks like progress possible here:News & Star (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/home/1.287387)

[niknak]

I still find it very hard to believe that Stobart or their backers can make an economic case for redeveloping Carlisle Airport, the projected costs of their initial plans were way below reallity and even now the numbers simply don't stack up.
Anyone involved in aviation, airport development and air freight (of which Stobart have no direct operational experience) will know that pre recession the air freight market was very well sewn up, now it's tighter than a ducks rear bits.

I don't doubt that they may well move to the airport, but if they do, it will be to operate from a site that will be cheaper to develop as a freight centre for trucks and that there will be no development of the airport infrastructure.

[west lakes]

Irrespective of plans for the air operations at the airport, Stobart has to be out of the present premises by end of February as the lease expires.
That is the dead line and at that point, I recall it was made clear in the original expansion plans, if they aren't at the airport they may be out of Cumbria.

Don't forget as well that they are well on the way to completing the purchase of Southend airport.

[HZ123]

Nik Nik; There are similar questions at the Southend part of this vast airport / aviation experience. Little or no experience does not add up, particularly as you say in this current climate.

[Expressflight]

Perhaps it would be useful to actually add a few facts to this discussion.

A condition of the CAX planning consent granted yesterday stipulates that Stobart must resurface the runway and provide a passenger terminal facility, among other things, so Niknak's assumptions are incorrect when he says that "there will be no redevelopment of the airport infrastructure."

As far as their current HQ lease is concerned, there has always had to be negotiation of some form of extension to its expiry date as not even the previous planning application could have achieved a completion date of February 2009.

As far as SEN is concerned the new owners' lack of aviation experience matters very little as the development plan is already in place and it is the finance to make it achievable which Stobarts bring to the party. The fact that they have appointed Alastair Welch to be MD of Stobart Air to oversee all their planned aviation activities shows that they recognise they need an experienced hand on the tiller.

I don't think anyone really knows yet just what they plan from an air operations point of view, but they wouldn't be talking about "niche freight" operations at SEN unless they had done some homework. More interesting
is their stated intention to ensure that a CAX-SEN passenger schedule is established once the SEN rail station is built. Could this involve Stobart liveried aircraft operated under an ACMI arrangement with an existing carrier - certainly an interesting prospect. I can envisage an realistic schedule for such an operation which would offer a CAX route to both London (SEN) and, say, Amsterdam or Paris.

Interesting times ahead for both airports.

[Expressflight]

The Section 106 agreement with Stobarts, covering the provision of a passenger terminal and resurfacing the runway and other matters, has been agreed with Carlisle City Council and they have now formally granted planning consent for the construction of Stobart's new HQ on the airfield.

This should, in turn, lead to Stobart Group completing their purchase of CAX once due diligence formalities have been completed.

[Expressflight]

Stobart Group have announced this morning that they expect to complete their purchase of CAX by 30 May 2009 at a cost of £14 million.

As the airport is effectively owned by Andrew Tinkler and William Stobart, the deal will have to be approved by shareholders and an EGM will take place on 30 May for that purpose.

The existing SEN management team will take responsibility for the development of CAX itself, although the main purpose of the acquisition is to build a new corporate HQ and warehousing facility on the site.

[goatface]

The existing SEN management team will take responsibility for the development of CAX itself, although the main purpose of the acquisition is to build a new corporate HQ and warehousing facility on the site.

Well. there you are - that more or less confirms that Stobart have little or no intention of developing Carlisle as an airport, but using the land and nearby road infrastructure to develop the company.
So much for the blaze of publicity which took several gullible posters in.:rolleyes:

[Expressflight]

goatface

Not correct I'm afraid.

The Section 106 Agreement which accompanies the planning consent legally binds Stobart to carrying out the agreed improvements to the airport infrastructure. The very reason the Council insisted upon the Agreement was to avoid the sort of outcome that you are putting forward.

No gullibility on my part I can assure you.

[west lakes]

Just to add a bit of "meat" The Stobart Group have announced profits up to £23M+ from £3.5M last year!
News & Star | News | Stobart Group increase profits by more than £20 million (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/stobart_group_increase_profits_by_more_than_20_million_1_553 281?referrerPath=/1.553184)


Stobart Air who own CAX is a separate company owned by Andrew Tinkler (CEO Stobart Group) and Eddie Stobart, the group is going to take the option to purchase Stobart Air.

Interview also suggested 2 rotations/day to SEN & flights to AMS, possibly DUB and other european destination in the planning stage.

Airport to be renamed "Carlisle Lake District Airport"

BBC news (NE) reporting the group is paying £14M for CAX

[parkfell]

Just hope they remember to groove the new main runway, otherwise the performance when WET WET WET will be somewhat limiting !!:confused:

[MUFC_fan]

Airport to be renamed "Carlisle Lake District Airport"


Not 'Carlisle INTERNATIONAL Lake District Airport?':}

Would be good to see SEN flights, especially when the train station is complete. I would guess DUB would come before AMS. Also would guess Manx2 on the IOM route!:ok:

SEN looks like it can become a little gold mine if they get the quick link to London. They have no restrictions at present, only the capacity.

Great airport for a new start up airline to forge a number of domestic links! How about BLK-SEN and into London? Less stressful than MAN-LHR? I think so...:}

[bad bear]

Given that there are approx 100,000 people in the local area and there are 4 or 5 airports not too far away with flights to London,Dublin and Amsterdam I cant see an airline running many flights.
If there were to be a 100 seat plane flying twice per day to SEN that would require 1 % of the population to travel every week to fill it.
Also
Not many airlines would put up with NDB approaches at both ends of the route.

b b

[MUFC_fan]

But surely there would be people coming from the other end?:confused:

London a much larger population that 100k!

[west lakes]

Bad Bear

the nearest would be NCL about 70 - 90 mins travel on a good day
The advantage would be for the West Cumbria area where the nearest is at least 2hrs away, if the "nuclear coast" concept takes off (as it were) the advantages for travel for any major nuclear power station build would be huge.
From where I am:
NCL - 2 1/4 hrs, BLK 2 1/2 hrs, GLA 2 1/2 hrs, MAN 2 3/4 hrs, EDI & DTV are similar times.
CAX would be 1hr
As a comparison for rail jouneys, rail to Carlisle over 1 hr
Road to Penrith to connect with rail 45 mins

Regarding equipment as (from earlier in this thread) the runway weight limit is low I can't see resurfacing raising that to a level suitable for anything other than small commuter aircraft - which is why the original application wanted to build a new runway!

MUFC

That's part of the reasoning behind the name change - to attract tourists!
(just as Oxenholme railway station got renamed Oxenholme Lake District and Penrith to Penrith (North Lakes))

[MUFC_fan]

MUFC

That's part of the reasoning behind the name change - to attract tourists!
(just as Oxenholme railway station got renamed Oxenholme Lake District and Penrith to Penrith (North Lakes))


I think thats a good idea and I understood that, I was just wondering whether they would follow BLK with the 'international' title!:ok:

[west lakes]

MUFC

Somehow I doubt it!

[Not to scale]

Bad Bear

I suspect that PR-NAV approaches will be the preferred option once the new grooved runway is operational.

They make life so much easier !!

[daz211]

People from Workington, Whitehaven and the like have to travel for hours to reach MAN, GLA and NCL, lets just hope some charter flights pop up.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Not many airlines would put up with NDB approaches at both ends of the route.

Except that SEN has Radar. :8

[goatface]

I am intrigued as to where you all think the money is coming from to fund the developments, it would cost Stobarts Group profits of £23m and a fair wedge more to do the necessary improvements and Stobart would never be able to raise that sort of capital for such a project in this economic climate.

Even if they did, there is an insufficient catchment area to make the sort of flights suggested economically viable, it takes a huge investment to start up such routes and the airport operator has to make significant concessions to the airlines to attract them and keep them. Additionally, established competitors at nearby airports would simply lower their fares to destroy the competition at Carlisle.

I wager that Stobart will move on to the airport site and build a new HQ and warehousing / vehicle complex, but they will not redevelop the airport at all.
The Section 106 clause will be disregarded and eventually overturned or Stobart may recieve a relatively small fine, but the Council and Local Government will capitulate regarding the airport development when they are reminded of the economic contribution Stobart are making to the area.

Simple fact: the redevelopment of Carlisle Airport to a standard capable of operating either freighters or scheduled flights is economically unviable.

[west lakes]

Odd really, never known Stobbarts not do something they have fought for for a few years. They claimed they had the cash for the original redevelopement (complete new runway included), so the council imposed downgrade to that - resurfaced existing runway and a new passenger terminal -

From
Stobart Rail - civil engineering (http://www.stobartrail.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=23)

civil engineering
Stobart Rail also undertakes civil engineering activities away from the rail infrastructure. Recent opportunities within the Stobart Group have given Stobart Rail the opportunity to use the tried and tested approach taken to rail works and apply them to general civils projects.

Previous projects have included small projects for local councils as well as larger projects at Eddie Stobart depots throughout the UK that have included drainage, concrete slab and new highway works.

Future developments at Widnes & Runcorn as well as the planned works at Carlisle Airport will provide the perfect opportunity for Stobart Rail to show what it can do away from the railway.


They are not wanting to introduce large freighters or passenger aircraft (and have stated that publicly) nor can anything of any size (public transport) actually land there, it's only speculation on this site, and rumours among the objectors in the vicinity that is suggesting that!

[Expressflight]

Barnaby the Bear & bad bear
SEN has an NDB, SEN has radar and SEN also has ILS. I guess you forgot about the last item.

Stobart's plans for CAX include strengthening/resurfacing the existing runway, so the current weight limit for ATMs will be lifted. This will result in Q400/ATR capability which will be more than sufficient to establish scheduled services. The AMS will quite likely be operated as a one-stop, through flight via SEN which should ensure its viability and once SEN's rail station is open it will offer transit times from touchdown to arrival in the City or Docklands faster than either STN or LTN.

goatface
You underestimate the strength of a Section 106 Agreement. It becomes an element of the planning consent and any breach of it would nullify the consent. There is no way that Stobart could just ignore its requirements. I also understand that the runway and terminal work will not cost anything like £23 million now as a newly built hangar will be finished as the terminal building and Stobart Rail will do the runway work, thus keeping it all in-house.


Regardless of any scepticism shown by recent posts, developing CAX in this way and linking it to the developments at SEN to which Stobart are also committed, makes good economic sense. I believe the work will go ahead and that a limited number of scheduled services will be available from CAX within the next 18 months. The fact that Andrew Tinkler has said this is what he wants to see is not the least of the reasons why I believe it will happen - he is not known for backing away from commitments made.

[panjandrum]

I don't think Barnaby forgot, he knew it was not on Runway 06 - yet!

[goatface]

Expressflight.
OK, I accept that politics will rule the day on that one, although I know that the existing runway and airport infrastructure is totally unsuitable for any sort of operations by any aircraft of significant size.
Its not just a case of chucking down a bit of tarmac and putting up a Dutch Barn for a hanger.
The redevelopment requires a complete refurbishment and extension of the runway to allow a landing and take off distance of around 1800m or more.
This, along with the rebuilding of taxiways and apron, new runway lighting and approach aids is going to cost in the region of £20m. Don't forget that this all has to be done to CAA standards - not Stobart railway's.

Clearly many posters here have no idea what it costs to build and operate an airport or of what airlines demand in respect of start up costs.
Stobart Group may have made a profit of £23m, but they also have a group debt of £121m.
Their assets being little more than the debt, they are going to struggle to convince their shareholders and bankers that spending in excess of £20m with no projected return on the investment in the immediate future, is a viable proposition.

Pie in the sky.

[west lakes]

Though I accept there is some "spin" in this document it does address a number of points

http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/documents/AirportleafletNEW.pdf

Though you probably already know, as existing

25 TORA 1714m, TODA, 1824m, ASDA 1714m, LDA 1468m
07 TORA 1659m, TODA 1777m, ASDA 1659m, LDA 1321m
from NATS - AIS

I am fairly sure that they do know that it will have to meet CAA requirements!

[Expressflight]

I'm sorry goatface, but your views are so far from the reality of the situation that it's just not worth continuing this exchange.

Just wait and see.

[goatface]

Expressflght.

You have expressed your views eliquently and with courtesy, but the facts at Carlisle Airport and the redevelopment required to bring it up to the standards required speak for themselves.

Nothing would please me more than to see a new regional airport rise from the ashes, but in this case, even at the best of economic times, it just isn't financially viable.

Regards,

GF.

[Sir George Cayley]

Shirley an RNAV (GNSS) NPA at both ends of Carlisle's runway would offer greater regularity than wartime technology NDBs?

Once EGNOG is approved, then APV will provide a CAT l type of GPS approach ideal for any Cumbrian operation - and with the possibility of CAT lll once GBAS arrives.

Don't miss- over -estimate Stobbar Air, they know what they are doing.

Sir George Cayley

[Buster the Bear]

Carlisle - Southend - Rochford - City of London

is quicker than....

Carlisle - Luton - Parkway - City of London?

Have you read NATS Airspace Change proposals?

Going to be a long haul to Southend!

[Red Four]

Do keep up Buster! They're building a station at the airport, so the 'Rochford' transfer will become just the next stop on the line.

[Expressflight]

Buster,
You misread what I wrote.
I said that transit times from touchdown SEN to arrival in the City or Docklands will be faster than from either STN or LTN and I stand by that statement.
As far as an airways routing CAX to SEN is concerned, as you know the airspace changes originally proposed by NATS are being looked at again in light of the representations received.

[SWBKCB]

Interesting quote from Andrew Tinkler in the Cumberland News:

“Southend Airport is on 360 acres and at the moment it supports 1,400 jobs, all of them linked to aviation services: things like maintaining and refurbishing planes. There are 40 different companies based there. Carlisle Airport could be a mirror image of Southend Airport in the north, but with cheaper assets. The airport here is 460 acres. It could be a regional centre for aviation services, with even more potential than Southend Airport.”

[Expressflight]

The Stobart Group Extraordinary General Meeting held on Saturday duly passed the resolution to purchase Carlisle Airport.

I had been planned that the purchase itself would be completed the same day although I cannot confirm that that actually happened. It will be interesting to see how quickly the infrastructure improvements, in terms of resurfacing/strengthening the runway and providing a passenger terminal, will be put in place. That will obviously be the determining factor for a possible timetable for any commencement of their hoped for CAX-SEN scheduled service.

[SWBKCB]

From the News and Star:

Carlisle Airport has recruited the operations director of London Luton Airport to spearhead its expansion. Andy Judge, 50, will take over as airport director at Carlisle in late September.

The high-profile appointment signals the intent of airport-owner Stobart Group to drive forward its plans for passenger flights and air freight.

Mr Judge said: “There’s a great deal of opportunity and potential at Carlisle. Passenger flights haven’t been on the cards for a while but that doesn’t mean they won’t be in the future. Flights are operated by airlines. The airport’s job is to provide the infrastructure and that’s where I come in.”

Mr Judge was born in north London and served as air crew in the RAF for 17 years. He was general manager operations at Bournemouth Airport from 1998 to 2001, then operations manager at Leeds Bradford before moving to London Luton in 2006.

He is married, with a grown-up son and daughter. He and his wife Sue plan to move to the Keswick area. Mr Judge replaces Richard Gordon, who has been airport director for six years. He is retiring but will stay on until the spring to ensure a smooth hand over.

Alastair Welch, managing director of Stobart Air, said: “Richard has been an invaluable and popular member of the team and we wish him the very best for his retirement. We look forward to welcoming Andy to lead the team in Carlisle as the airport moves into a very exciting phase of its development.”

[goatface]

Andy Judge has (alledgedly) considerable experience:

Current•Operations Director at London Luton Airport


Andrew Judge’s Experience
Operations Director
London Luton Airport
October 2006 — Present (2 years 10 months)

Operations Director
Leeds Bradford Airport
November 2001 — September 2006 (4 years 11 months)

GM Operations
Bournemouth Airport
January 1998 — November 2001 (3 years 11 months) .

Given all this, it has to be asked why he has given up such a good career to leave Luton and take on the poisened chalice and airport with no future that is Carlisle.
I'd love to hear his version of events.

After their purchase and promised development of Southend (which has now met severe opposition from the local authority) Stobart simply don't have the funds to develop Carlisle as an airport, however, they could easily attract investment to continue it's expansion as an industrial estate, which I suspect was their intention all along and still is.

Prove me otherwise.

[compton3bravo]

What I have heard for the time that Mr Judge has been at Luton there will be not many tears shed by the employees at the airport now that he is departing. When he first arrived he insisted that all B767 aircraft and similar size types had to be tugged onto stand along the Alpha taxiway from abeam the old Britannia (now easyJet) hangar plus no B757 could be parked on stand half which is located outside the hangar although the airport had worked without incident for many years. The towing situation was resolved after some time with the aircraft now allowed to taxi under its own power.
Strange he is leaving from the fifth busiest airport in the UK to some backwater in Cumbria.

[tornadoken]

Remember, the revenue attraction of airports, for non-aero-business investors, is not the landing/handling charges for hulls, freight and pax, but is the property play. Stobart began by hubbing Scotch distribution, then redeveloping railyards; Crosby's potential (like SEN's) is as a distribution/light industrial village, convenient by road to a hefty catchment, linked by the (short-haul) runway into all those world-reaching, multi-modal, 24/7 Chateauroux and Leipzigs. Expect very modest pax throughput: FR/Prestwick/Blackpool, EZ/Newcastle/Abbotsinch well-established: recall Lakeside Jetstream (and numerous SEN bandits)...and be humble.

[Expressflight]

Goatface

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you again (it seems to be becoming a habit), but it is not true to say that "Southend ...... has now met serious opposition from the local authority". Both SBC and RDC are still supportive of the plans to develop SEN into a 2mppa regional airport with a runway extended to 1,799m. All that has happened recently is that the vocal opposition of some residents under the 24 departure flight path has rattled some Councillors who fear a loss of votes, so nothing new there.
I believe that Stobart do have the funding to redevelop CAX itself, and they are committed to doing so by the Section 106 agreement which forms part of the planning consent for the construction of their new HQ and warehouse complex on site. I'm sure that Andrew Judge will have sought, and been given, firm assurances as to what form the development will take.
In order to gain the current planning consent they had to reduce the size of the warehousing they planned to build, so any attempt to further industrialise the airport is likely to be doomed to failure as it would fall outside of that allowed under the local plan.

tornadoken

I assume you're saying that CAX will only find a market as a freight feeder into/from the main European hubs and that must certainly be one of the things that Stobarts are looking at, but I think you dismiss any pax potential too readily. I see no reason why it's local market and inbound tourism should not support a modest number of business/leisure routes and I doubt that FR are on their radar for commercial reasons. There must certainly be the possibility a CAX-London(SEN) service with that feeding into, say, a SEN-AMS route for starters. I for one would not have expected Newquay, which has a similar catchment population to Carlisle, to have been as successful as it now is so don't write off Carlisle's chances in the pax stakes just yet.

[compton3bravo]

Sorry but dream on, I might have just seen a couple of pigs flying over Carlisle Airport.

[Expressflight]

compton3bravo

Hmmm....

I'm tempted to bookmark that post for future use.......

So you really don't think a CAX-SEN scheduled service will be launched in the next year or so?

[compton3bravo]

I am not saying that a Carlisle-Southend service would start - I am all for any new routes from any airport - good for the industry and jobs- but cannot seeing it work unfortunately.
While I was working for an aviation journal in the mid-1980s an airline which name I cannot remember, commenced a twice daily Carlisle-London Heathrow service with a HS.748. My editor went on a press jolly and everybody on board wished it well but said that it would not get the passengers to make it viable and remember there was no Prestwick-Stansted service in those days - it lasted only a few months.
I see you are in France and I now live in Spain so will have a level €10 if it commences at all and if it does it will not last three months.
I wish them well at Carlisle but I just cannot see it succeeding especially in these financially stringent times.

[ELondonPax]

I'm sure Carlisle faces many challenges and will never have a huge catchment.

On the other hand, the Virgin trains service (despite the half truths put out by network rail claiming that the west coast upgrade is 'finished') is still hopelessly unreliable - especially on the services north of Preston.

[goatface]

I dare say that a Carlisle to London air service may well be a poular alternative to the rail service, but it doesn't matter if it was a Dash 8 Q400 which was 75% full every day, it still wouldn't be economically viable.
The cost of operating into Heathrow, Gatwick or London City is collosall, even if the operator was able to offer interline facilities to attract onward travelling passengers, the profit on tickets from Carlisle to London would be very small and not economically viable.

A service to Stansted or Luton is still outside the realms of low cost travel, a service to Southend would have to be substantially subsidised by both airports for any operator to even discuss it, never mind operate it and would still leave the passenger with an expensive onward rail journey into London.

The protaganists for the expansion of Carlisle Airport conveniently forget to write that the Stobart Group debt is in the region of £180m and although continuing operatingprofits make that perfectly managable, any investment and attracting capital for that investment, is going to be on projects that make a return within the first year or so.
There may well be good grounds for spending money at Southend Airport, but at Carlisle, regardless of papers signed etc, it's going to be on the industrial infrastructure, not any significant facet of the airport.

[Expressflight]

So an arrival at SEN would "leave the passenger with an expensive onward rail journey into London." would it?
I suggest you check the facts for the cost of rail fares from London's airports into Central London. The SEN to Liverpool Street fare will be very similar at around £13, and rather cheaper than from STN to Liverpool Street.

Stobart Group net debt at 28.2.09 was £120.7million, representing a gearing of 29.8% which is generally considered as low risk and their share price continues to outperform their competitors in their market sector.

I'm afraid your comments seem to be based more upon bias than fact.

[goatface]

Not bias at all, I am all for investment in aviation but it's got to be viable.
Stobart's group debt announced at the end of M1y was £180m, as I said the group profit was healthy enough to manage that debt, but insufficient by a long way to fund the £m's it will cost to develop the aviation side at Carlisle, especially when they can make a healthy sum just by developing the industrial estate site alone.

I am afraid that it's common sense to anyone who has any aviation business and investment experience.

[Expressflight]

I'm sorry to hear that my 30 years of just that experience counts for nothing and I apologise for my obvious lack of common sense.

My Stobart debt figure is from their published accounts for the year ending 28 Feb 2009 so I don't doubt its accuracy.

We'll just have agree to differ and see what happens won't we?

[Phileas Fogg]

Why London, well not London but such a place as Southend-on-Sea?

If it's for international connections then why not somewhere like Amsterdam, somewhere that is not economically accessible by train and the added bonus of being a destination for a naughty weekend away?

[Expressflight]

I can't quite understand why people are so sniffy about SEN as an airport serving London.

The facts speak for themselves in that an integrated rail station will offer journey times from SEN to London which will be as fast as from the other London area airports bearing in mind a probable quicker transit through immigration and baggage reclaim onto the platform. A few years ago LTN would not have been considered as 'London' and STN was just a strip of concrete in the Essex countryside far from the capital. It is the actual journey times which matter, not some old fashioned image of the town in which the airport is located.

The launch of a CAX-SEN service could provide a through service to AMS, as Phileas Fogg suggests. At a stroke you then have a Carlisle to London day return service and a Carlisle to Amsterdam a.m. arrival with an early evening Amsterdam to Carlisle return service. Add to that the fact it also gives you a twice daily SEN-AMS-SEN and the figures start to make sense. The icing on the cake would be to have AF/KL operate the route and you have full through-booking capability to worldwide destinations.
Stobarts certainly have full details of a workable schedule so it's down to them to convince an appropriate operator of its merits.

[Phileas Fogg]

But earlier posts suggests that, quite correctly, many of the passenger would be for international connections.

So if they departed CAX in the morning, arrive SEN later in the morning, fart around with a train into a London station, then on the underground to another London station, then on an under or overground train to a London airport, well they'll, by then, already have missed many of the departures that day.

Alternatively, from CAX, they could nip across to NCL and do things the simple way with a flight to AMS or LHR etc. and a minimal connection time before contiuing their journey.

Need to convince people that CAX offers an alternative to NCL and that wouldn't be achieved by services to SEN.

[Expressflight]

"But earlier posts suggest that, quite correctly, many of the passengers would be for international connections."

Exactly so Phileas, which is why the through flight to AMS would be important. Who is seriously suggesting that many people would fly internally into STN or LTN and then go by train to LHR, say, for onward international connections so why single out SEN for that criticism?

Simpler to "nip across to NCL" is it?

Let's look at the facts. There are departures from NCL to AMS at 0600 and 0940, arriving AMS 0820 and 1205. The NCL website quotes a journey time from Carlisle to NCL by road of 75 minutes, so to catch the 0600 departure means setting out from home in the small hours.
From CAX you could depart at 0700 and arrive AMS at 1030 via SEN. That doesn't seem much of a contest to me.
BA from NCL to LHR offers greater felxibility of departure times, but many people would prefer to use AMS rather than LHR for their onward international connections I would suggest.

By all means let's discuss the pro and cons of the viability of scheduled services ex CAX but please stick to the facts and don't suggest the existing alternatives are entirely satisfactory when they clearly have drawbacks compared to potential routes from CAX.

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

You seem to be 'protecting' SEN insinuating that I am singling SEN out for critism when I am not, indeed over my career I have often recommended SEN as a London alternate and indeed I recommended a friend his start an operation utilising SEN because of it's aids, H24 and very good weather record, just don't try and put a wide body in there though, 'we' had to get a CAA dispensation to put an A300 in there one day due to the runway width, not the length!

So, rather than direct flights from NCL to AMS or LHR or CDG or wherever CAX's alternative is to offer flights CAX-SEN-AMS, that wouldn't be able to compete on the price of direct flights, the travelling public simply wouldn't understand any logic in travelling south, and then north again, to reach their destination and why fly for more hours than is necessary, the travelling public want direct, as is possible, flights.

It simply wouldn't be a financially viable alternative and it's nothing against SEN, I'd be saying the same were it Bishops Stortford International, Vauxhall Motors airstrip on the hill, not so RAF Manston or anywhere of a similar scenario.

CAX would need direct flights to a major hub international airport.

[Jamesair]

Don't forget the Dubai alternative from NCL which wouldn't involve an unreasonably early start from Carlisle.

[Expressflight]

Phileas Fogg

I would say that I am 'promoting' SEN rather than 'protecting' it and I did rather take your phrase "well not London but such a place as Southend-on-Sea" as dismissing SEN's potential to effectively serve London once the train station is in place.

I'm pleased to see you appreciate some of its good points, although I don't quite see the relevance of your story regarding Heavylift's A300 landing there once - it's only ever going to be a Code 3C runway but that won't be a limiting factor on its aspirations.

Getting back on topic, I don't agree with your view that the travelling public will only accept non-stop flights, as there are many routes within the UK currently which offer one-stop through flights to destination. For example Air Southwest flies to both LGW and LCY with one-stop through flights from Plymouth and Newquay respectively. I agree that, ideally, services should be non-stop but if traffic levels are unlikely initially to make that viable then the one-stop option should be considered whereby two prime destinations can be served at appropraite frequencies. AMS is, incidentally, east of SEN so the travelling public won't need to consider the point you make. I don't accept either that a one-stop routing need be uncompetitive on price.

I'm not just clutching ideas out of thin air on this as I do have something of an inside track on the SEN/CAX/Stobart situation and the thinking at present certainly includes the possibility of a CAX service 'linking to London Southend Airport and beyond' to quote from their latest annual report.

The necessary airport infrastructure at CAX to enable any scheduled services to start, runway and navaid improvements mainly, is reckoned to be about a year away so it will be some time before we shall see the outcome.

[daz211]

CAX will attract passengers and you will find that there will be more pax traveling from CAX than enyone on here would have thought, people on here must stop thinking pax would use NCL over CAX, what people are forgeting is that it wont just be Carlisle residents who will use CAX, there are many 1000's of peple who live in large towns such as Workington and Whitehaven who are crying out for CAX to open up for passenger flights, the people who live in these two towns alone have to travel 2.5+ to get to any Airport at the moment but when CAX is up and running this will be reduced to around one hour...

I do think that CAX would be better off attracting airlines such as Ryanair, Easyjet or Jet2, there will not be so much demand for CAX-LON unless the LON Airport is LHR, STN or LTN. I have nothing against SEN but the destinations at this time are just not there, unless somthing like CAX-PMI via SEN is put in place.

I could see people traveling for eg, CAX-STN then on to Ryanair, Easyjet, Airberlin ... just think of the 100's of "connecting" destinations that would be available ... But only time will tell...

[SWBKCB]

Agree the point about West Cumbria - Workington to Newcastle is not an easy drive.

However, I thought that even when 're-developed' CAX won't be able to accept regular operations by 737/319 so rather than Easy/Ryanair/Jet2, the most likely operators would be in the Flybe/Aer Arran/VLM category.

SEN seems the most obvious destination with Stobarts owning both airports.

[daz211]

If what you say is true re 737/319, CAX is dead in the water :ouch:.
I seem to remember that some 737 holiday charters ran out of CAX a few years ago so would have thought after the re-developed CAX would be able to take regular flight by these A/C type...

Workington to Newcastle not an easy drive you want to try Stansted to workington it is hell. and dont get me started about the train with 4 changes or the 11 hr it takes on the coach :ugh:.

[horatio_b]

I think that the largest aircraft ever to use Carlisle was a PanAm B727 in the aftermath of the Lockerbie disaster.

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

Southend-on-Sea is not, and never will be, in London, neither will STN or LGW or LTN or Biggin Hill or Lydd or indeed any others, outside of greater London, that like to call themselves a London airport.

You talk about Air South West operating NQY via PLH, well I just happen to have an inside knowledge of the history of the NQY route and at one time, for a long time, there was a direct NQY-LHR service operated by British Midland, then Brymon, utilising an HP7 'dinosaur' aircraft.

When Brymon sold the HP7 to part finance the purchase of the DHC-7's the service then became operated by a DHC-7, in one direction but not both directions, via PLH, an HP7 couldn't have operated in/out PLH but a DHC-7 could, and there was an uproar amongst the NQY 'regulars'.

Had there been another airport, offering direct LHR services, from another airport within striking distance of NQY then Brymon would have lost these passengers business, and all for the sake of a 15 minute transit in PLH, in one direction only, that added some 30 minutes to their journey time.

But there is/was no alternative within striking distance of NQY, the next airport up the road was PLH, a 2,500ft runway, a 600ft decision height, a 1500m minimum RVR (despite the runway being less than 1500m in length) and with an appalling weather record with the only aid being an NDB and even then, to fly from PLH to LHR would have been via NQY in one direction.

Next up the road was EXT but Exeter only had services, sometimes, to LGW, next up the road BRS, no services to London and then they might as well drive or train it to London.

But had there been a 'NCL' within an hour (ish) of NQY, offering a variety of direct flights to major hub international airports, then Brymon would have needed to think again, as Air South West would, and compete by offering direct services.

So AMS is not to the north of SEN? A direct flight from CAX to AMS would route out over Ottringham and in, more or less, a straight line between the two, you suggest that from CAX it take a southerly route, around the London area one way systems etc. into SEN for a 30 (ish) minute turnround to then route north-east from SEN to AMS.

Now I would presume that it would be a maximum of a 50 (ish) seat aircraft out of Carlisle, passengers will invariably always opt for a jet rather than a prop and smaller airliners, per seat price, are more expensive to operate than larger airliners.

From NCL there are B737's and those larger Embraer things, however many seats they may have, so straight away, even on a direct CAX-AMS service, the costs per seat, to the operator, are going to be higher than from NCL. But then you're suggesting that they further inflate this cost, per seat, by adding flight time, associated maintenance costs, overflight charges, fuel costs, an additional landing and navigation fee in each direction etc. etc. etc. and you still belive this can effectively compete with a Dutch B737 out of NCL with all the connections, on that same carrier's network, whereas the NCL-AMS fare is incorporated, and reduced, in to an overall fare rather than two seperate fares?

You chose to previously cite the scenario of an early morning departure out of CAX/NCL but neglected to think that the pax need to come back again perhaps arriving in AMS mid afternoon. They could have a direct flight to NCL and then a 1 hour (ish) travel home or they could f@rt around travelling, at a higher fare, south west to SEN to then travel north west to CAX before perhaps a 30 minute travel home, I know which option I and many would take.

A round trip CAX-SEN-AMS-SEN-CAX would take circa 7 hours, out at 0700 in the morning, back at 1400 and if it takes 7 hours for a round trip an 'evening' service would need to depart CAX by no later than 1530 to be back in CAX around 2230.

No aircraft down time to operate other routes during the middle of the day, one aircraft solely utilised operating 2 rotations a day makes for very high utilisation costs.

[Phileas Fogg]

Workington, Whitehaven etc. have been mentioned as a catchment area for CAX.

But of all the people in CAX's catchment area how many of those would be prepared to pay 'premium' air fares to fly from a nearer regional airport or would cheaper air fares and more choices of travel and destinations served from the likes of NCL, MAN, PIK etc. still persuade then to travel a little further to save themselves money whilst allowing them a wider choice of destinations?

In my experiences locals like to shout that they prefer to fly from their local airports ..... until they realise it may be more expensive for them to do so!

[Expressflight]

You'll obviously shoot down this suggested schedule Phileas, but what the heck.....

0700 CAX-SEN-AMS-SEN-???-SEN-AMS-SEN-CAX 2015

Otherwise I think we've pretty well argued this to death so a pause is due I think. Let's just see what actually happens eh?

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

So anyone that wants to fly on your air service CAX to SEN etc, let us say they are from Workington or Whitehaven etc, has to get up in the middle of the night to fly at 0700 in the morning when they'd much prefer to be in bed?

And, likewise, anyone that wants to fly on your service to CAX can only travel during an evening, hotel check-out times are circa 1200 hours thus were they coming out of an AMS hotel they would need to kick their heels for some 6 hours whilst waiting for the privilige of flying to CAX via a STOL strip by the Essex seaside?

And you believe this to be realistic alternative to several direct services to/from NCL daily?

You're flogging a dead horse Expressflight, this would be comparible to a 'TBI' owned airport taking all the catering out of the airport, restocking it with Peter's Pies, and telling the pax that these pies are the only food available for them so they much eat it because the airport owner also own Peter's Pies!!!

[HZ123]

PF Please do not knock EFs' continued optimism for all things CAX and SEN?

[Expressflight]

You do get excited don't you PF? With respect (and I actually mean that) I think you're going rather over the top now and your responses have gone some way beyond reasoned debate so I won't bother to counter your tirade.

Thanks for your support HZ123. As always it's much appreciated.

As I say, let's see what really happens shall we now we've all had our say?

[Phileas Fogg]

This thread is supposed to be concentrating on CAX but 'you know who' has turned it around to concentrate on SEN, 2 AMS rotations per day out of SEN but only 1 per day out of CAX and this is, or was, supposed to be an airline dedicated to offering the catchment area of CAX services from their local airport!

Here's a schedule:

0700 CAX AMS CAX 1100

1215 CAX AMS CAX 1615

1730 CAX AMS CAX 2130

And operate them on a codeshare agreement with a certain Dutch operator!

[goatface]

PF

KLM are the only regional operator from UK regional airports who have a codeshare agreement with anyone in AMS, i.e themselves and KLM are not going to operate from CAX when the local catchment area is more than adequately served from Newcatle.
Even if another operator was persauded to operate to AMS from CAX, they wouldn't get any interline agreement and KLM would destroy them by lowering fares - they've done it with Flybe and a few others.

By the way, Easyjet, Ryanair et al, require a runway with a LDA, ASDA, TORA of at least 1950m - which is why you'll never see them in CAX.

[SWBKCB]

Re KLM, in the north of England alone, Leeds/Humberside, Newcastle/DTVA, Manchester/Liverpool are all nearer (and lot easier drives) than Carlisle/Newcastle.

[Phileas Fogg]

SWBKCB,

KLM operate to/from LPL?

goatface,

One doesn't establish these things until one enquires! Air UK had a codeshare with KLM long before they became 100% owned by KLM, Northwest and, I think, United have codeshares with KLM, Lithuanian, Maersk, Malev, Ukraine Intl etc. all have codeshares with them.

The danger might be that were a CAX operator been seen to be treading on the toes of such an operator then that operator might make life difficult for them, such as a UK operator (I've already mentioned in this post) did to a LBA based G1 & SD360 operator that put their noses out of joint back in the 80's, but by suggesting a codeshare is making a statement that 'we' want to work with you and not in opposition to you.

If a pax wants to travel, long distance, from NCL then they have a networks choice, aside from KLM, of the national carriers of France, Belgium, UAE, Germany, Scandinavia, the worlds favourite (not in my book they ain't) airline but if a CAX based operator went in to a codeshare solely with one operator then, long distance, that one operator would have sole monopoly of CAX to increase revenues, not on the UK to AMS or wherever route, but on the connecting routes out of their hub whether that hub be AMS, FRA, CPH, BRU, CDG or wherever.

I don't believe, on price, a CAX operator could compete, there's only so many pax whose ultimate destination is one of those close continent airports already mentioned, without such a codeshare agreement!

[SWBKCB]

PF, yep - do keep up (and while I'm being picky, they don't operate those larger Embraer things into NCL either - it's the Fokker things as well as B737's)

Media Centre*|*Press Releases*|*KLM returns to Liverpool after 70 years and opens up the World to Liverpool Passengers (http://www.liverpoolairport.com/press-office/klm-returns-to-liverpool-after-70-years-and-opens-up-the-world-to-liverpool-passengers.html)

[Phileas Fogg]

SWBKCB,

Accepted that I didn't keep up with things regarding LPL, my local and convenient airport being BHX, but you might keep up with things also that those Fokker things, as much as I love travelling by them, in KLM's eyes, are fokked beyond their economically viable lives and are being phased out in favour of some Brazilian built thingies :)

[SWBKCB]

Typically misleading headline, but bit of an update from the new airport director


News & Star | News | Business | Passenger flights from Carlisle Airport to Paris by 2011 (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/passenger_flights_from_carlisle_airport_to_paris_by_2011_1_6 20495?referrerPath=news)

[HZ123]

No mention of SEN, this is all going to end in tears?

[SWBKCB]

For who? Still think Stobarts are after a new site for their HQ, and anything they make out of the airport side will be a bonus.

Any service to Southend will be sold as London, and that's first on the list of suggested destinations.

[elshiftsman]

All the talk of small domestic routes from CAX is hiding the fact that a developed airport in Cumbria could attract inbound traffic from Eastern Europe, and Germany in a tourist capacity for the lake district..... we fly for holidays to the likes of JSI/JTR/KGS, these airports have no local population using them and seem to survive! Does anybody else think that Stobarts and Cumbria County Council have been a little bit blinkered in planning for the future of the site?

[learjet50]

Blinded would be nearer the point

Sorry wont work even with Eddie s Money

[Heathhurn]

I believe that the proposed development will work. It is not over ambitious and I believe will deliver an airport capable of expansion in meaningful terms of pax & cargo figures, albeit initially supported by the co located cargo transport hub facility. It may take some time and clever management to balance the bottom lines of the companies involved but the ES team in place have the expertise to succeed. The new Airport Director AJ is an exceptional individual with the experience and skills to make real development of the airport happen given the support of the ES Group.

[GrahamK]

The problem with any flights to London/Southend is that it will be competing with the train, which is so damn quick now (average time around 3 hrs 20 mins or so), would there really be much time saving, if any, by flying into SEN and catching a train from there into London?

[Expressflight]

Don't forget there is still a High Court judgement pending over the Judicial Review application appeal by a local farmer. The appeal was held at the start of this month and the judgement reserved to a later date.

A judgement in his favour could spoil all their plans as I'm sure they won't modernise the airport itself unless they can build the new HQ there.

[west lakes]

They must be confdent on the HQ front as the existng site is beng advertsed for lease or sale

[Red Four]

Looks like the farmer's case is thrown out (not before time):
Farmer loses Carlisle Airport fight : Carlisle Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/carlisle-airport-news-171009.htm)

[wildbillkelso]

think he might have had a case , from what I've seen at the airport . looks more like a death by a 1000 cuts for the place . things surely haven't improved as yet in any direction , and we cant blame mr gordon brown for holding up all the development . you will know stobarts intent for the airport when you see how thick they make the runway . if its just a cosmetic slither of tar hiding the multitude of sins of the old one , i think you can safely say the place would be doomed . they have to have improved the runway before they can start on the warehouse . part of the planing consent . if a good thick runway goes down with all good drains etc you will be able to assume that the airport plans to remain open . failing that it my well be Worth putting a good runway in to fool people as the financial rewards when the ware house is up far outweigh the cost of the runway . i do want stobart to keep his business in cumbria and would just like some honest clarification on the matter . :ok:

[Expressflight]

wildbillkelso

As far as I'm aware, Mr Brown is still fighting on and has applied to have his case heard by the Court of Appeal. If that is so, it's hardly surprising nothing had yet happened on the ground is it? No owner is going to go ahead and carry out the Section 106 Agreement improvements when hanging over his head is the possibility, however remote, that the whole planning consent could be nullified by the Courts.

The delay in anything tangible happening is entirely down to Mr Brown's actions and not to any delaying tactics on the part of Stobarts.

I hope this meets your demand for "some honest clarification on the matter".

[HZ123]

Seasons greetings to all! Once again another decade end is in sight and little has happened at either end of the Stobbart Dream Machine. 'Express' before you have a go, at SEN indeed the station is making a late run progress and will provide another joining halt for locals who should have no fear of ever been outed by airline pax, not in the next ten years anyway?

I am sure we will be able to exchange the same greetin gs this time in 2010.

[tartanplane]

If coventry can't support an airport with their catchment area, how the hell can the stobart empire hope to make carlisle work. How many managers have tried in the last 10 years? the place has gone backwards.:ugh:

[wildbillkelso]

there's nothing stopping the runway going down is there ? if the stobart group are intent on making the airport work surely a runway is of most importance regardless of the warehouse . you need a surface to land planes on . Gordon browns decision to appeal has no direct effect on the development of the airport , it just effects the development of the warehouse . they are all sorts of things that could be set in place and improved airport side of the field in question . is it a case that the airport will be run down and delicence or a case that the stobart group has spread them selves a little thinly and have insufficient funds for the project ? or both ? as it sounds very suspicious to me . :ok:

[Expressflight]

wildbillkelso

The point that you are missing is that the airfield on its own could not possibly be commercially viable.

It has to have an 'industrial' element to its activities and the new Stobart warehouse and HQ will form a vital element of that. No commercially savvy company is going to carry out the airfield improvements in isolation as the result of those improvements, on their own, would not produce sufficient financial returns.

I repeat my view that it is Mr Brown who is the sole cause of the delay in progress being made on the ground - although under UK planning law he obviously has the legal right to take the action that he has.

[wildbillkelso]

well mr gordon ( i presume your mr gordon ) im aware that the airport needs the development to to sustain revenue and and subsidise the running of the airport side of business . it appears to me that mr gordon browns lease is up at the end of next year any way , so the development will be able to move forward regardless . its just a small time factor stalling the building development . my argument was why haven't they started other things air side of the proposed development field as its inevitable the warehouse development will go ahead or can go ahead as soon as gordon browns lease is up . 12 months isn't a long time and the runway could have been done thus not holding up the development any further . as the runway is part of the agreed planing consent . it would make good business sense to start the runway now while the airport is into its quiet period during the winter months and will have less of a negative impact on the running of the business . common sense really . regards wild bill . :ok:

[Expressflight]

Wildbillkelso

With respect, you obviously have no idea how planning law works. The length of Mr Brown's lease has nothing whatever to do with his Court challenge. If he were to win a Judicial Review it would delay the project for as long as the Review took and the Court decision would then decide whether the scheme went ahead at all.

"i presume your mr gordon (sic)" What are you on about?

[wildbillkelso]

i thought you may have been mr r gordon the former licence holder of the airport seen as you know so much about it . :ok: so would you say they would be a possibility that once the warehouse is up and the airport wasn't still breaking even or still losing money , that the shareholders could demand the airport be sold or gotten rid of wound up or what ever . and would you agree if that were the case that mr tinkler would be totally innocent from such a decision as the share holders would have demanded it and not tinkler privately . making the case the share holders could do the dirty work for andrew and his good reputable name wouldn't be soiled and no portion of blame put on the man at the top .

Andrew himself might not be to bothered now as he already made his personal fortune out the airport selling it in effect back to him self where he is the largest share holder . so a good profit made there . anything else is a bonus . its the share holders who will lose out know if the development doesn't go through . job done . i do apologize if i got your identity wrong you don't seem arrogant and rude enough to be the current airport manager by all accounts . regards wildbillkelso . still think there's a hidden agenda . :ok:

[wildbillkelso]

well i can tell you mr andrew judge is as well liked and loved by the good people of cumbria as he was from his previous employees , if not more , the man has made such an impresion in only six weeks and is evident from the moment you first step through the ops room . GOD BLESS HIM :ok:

[SWBKCB]

From the News & Star:

News & Star | News | Appeal court gives farmer consent to continue Carlisle airport legal fight (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/appeal_court_gives_farmer_consent_to_continue_carlisle_airpo rt_legal_fight_1_650378?referrerPath=home/news_star_search_results_page_2_1962)

[wildbillkelso]

carlisle airport has just made 7 employees redundant , this doesn't sound like a business moving forwards . it sounds like a death by 1000 cuts for the place and clarifies that the warehouse is the only concern regarding the airport . the excuse given for the redundancies was the recession , i find this extremely hard to believe and just an excuse as the stobart group bought southend airport at the height of the recession . also according to the news we are now officially out of recession and the stobart group plans to start digging their warehouse project in march this year . so why would anyone lay off valuable needed staff other than to slowly kill the airport side of things . mr judge seems to have been put in place to finish the airport and wind it up as a business although he appears to take all of his orders from southend airport wome do want rid of carlisle as it is financially run from southend thus costing southend money .

[Bartrams]

I heard it was 9?
1 ATC
Chief Fire Officer
2 Refuellers
2 Admin and 3 ops?

Kelso..you are right doesnt ring true..airport expanding?? Not like this its not.Hope all those locals who voted for an airport are ready for 24hr trucking!!
Similar happening at Teesside I think??

[thebobster]

Over here at Teesside whats happening is :
4 ATC to go as the Nightwatch is ending,
Fire Section outsourced
Opening hours changing from H24 to 0400-2200 (with flexibility)
Terminal Upgrading/Dividing

However Summer 10 and Winter 10/11 look a lot better than the previous year with newflights routes and operators :)

Rob

[highwideandugly]

anyone got any updates??? its gone very quiet??

[Expressflight]

I believe the two day Judicial Review of the planning consent takes place at the High Court on 20 April 2010, so I doubt that anything will happen until that is settled.

[baitbox]

Redundancy consultation ended yesterday allegedly and 6 positions (operations manager, chief fire officer, 2 firemen, 1 ops and 1 refueller - other people at risk were relocated within the business apparently) were told to go with immediate effect.... Fire category 1 in force from Monday, no more corporate movements by the looks of it.

Seems to be like a winding down of everyhting in either of 2 outcomes

1) work to start on the development as of 1st of march including runway by the summer allegedly, meaning they are restructuring with the pretense they will employ following the runway upgrade

or 2) this is the death knell for EGNC as an airport and the new structure have been taken in with another Stobart story.

Southend want rid simple as...

We shall see seeing as though the lease runs out 15 months from now for it to be an actual airport.... here comes the industrial estate the farmers expect.

On an additional note, apparently Mr Judge has past experience of 'restructuring' and getting rid of staff who are not 'yes men/women'

Professional henchman do you think?

[Expressflight]

Stobart Group announced this morning that they have sold part of their Inland Ports assets to Legal & General Assurance Pension Fund for £61m, giving a 20% return on their investment in those assets.
Importantly, they say that this will reduce their net debt to £45m thus making financing easier (i.e. cheaper) for the their planned SEN expansion.
It must also increase the likelihood of them going ahead with the CAX improvements I would have thought, although I haven't seen any specific reference to that so far.

[bad bear]

well the 1st march has come and gone, was there not supposed to be some work stared by that date?
I hear there is a new security requirement from later this year that requires high fences and patrols etc, might that make small airfields like Carlisle uneconomic?
A previous poster suggested no more corporate movements, did that happen or can we still hope to see the odd bizz jet?
b b

[Wind Sock]

I remember Dan Air operating out of Carlisle ( Crosby on Eden).

I was there for a month in July / August 1970 doing my flying scholarship.
The Dan Air flights were such a low key affair that through much of the day there was nobody manning their offices.

I can remember that when their 'one' phone used to ring it would often be us air cadets that would answer it and we would do our best to assist with any enquiries.

[ConstantFlyer]

I remember Dan Air operating out of Carlisle
Yes, Wind Sock, I remember in the mid-1970s weekend flights by HS 748s from the Isle of Man. Scheduled for 40 minutes. Halcyon days.

What is the largest type of aircraft that could use Carlisle in its current circumstances? J41? ATR? Let 410?...

[EC-ILS]

If for examle EI regional wanted to operate a flight to Carlisle, could they? or is the airport closed to passenger traffic?

[Nipper1011]

There are a whole raft of issues to confont:
Runway PCN; unless some re-surfacing has gone on lately it is shot.
Compliance with current DfT requirements for security (fencing for a start).
Then there is the issue of reliability; the Council ripped out the radar so only a non-precision approach aid is available. The runway is prone to surface icing in winter due to centreline drainage (hence its condition). These factors result in diversions (typically to Newcastle). Pretty soon the regular users of a scheduled service work out that they are better off driving the other way on the A69 and just using Newcastle.
For a viable, reliable service CAX needs a new runway (I understand that there are problems with the sub-strate - after all it was just 'floated' over moorland and bog at short notice for the Second World War) and lighting and an ILS. A single regional route would never repay that level of investment.

[SWBKCB]

Stobart's planning permission over turned in the Court of Appeal.

[bottom rung]

Nipper.... agree entirely, but a small correction: even with the radar still operational, only non-precision approaches would have been available. An SRA only gives guidance in one azimuth.
Still, what are Carlisle's options now? Hopefully there is a plan B.

[NorthernMonkey69]

Heres the press release from the 'mystery bidder' trying to buy the freehold from Carlisle City Council

PRESS RELEASE


A Green Airport for Cumbria

We are setting out to achieve a first for Carlisle with the country’s first green airport.

The intentions are ;

To secure the airport for use by light aircraft beyond 2011 and encourage development of the aviation services and businesses on site;
To integrate the airport development with our tourism needs and Hadrian’s Wall World Heritage site better;
To accommodate small businesses committed to the development and utilisation of renewable energy; and
To use renewable energy sources to service the airport’s facilities and accommodation.

In all of this the intention is to work closely with local communities and businesses and to find ways of giving the local community a stake in the development.

What will the site offer?

-Security for the airport as a regional centre for light aircraft, the aircraft museum and a venue for aviation festivals.


-A workshop/laboratory base and small business provision for the development of sustainable technology, with opportunities for eco- entrepreneurs. The development of sustainable electrical and heating provision for all accommodation on the site. The aim being to lower carbon dioxide emissions .

-Log cabins for tourists, users of the airport, walkers and cyclists; a nature reserve; eco domes for plants; teaching facilities; renewable energy exhibitions; ‘Hadrian’s Wall from the air’ base and a Hadrian’s Wall interpretation centre are all possibilities.

- New employment opportunities for 100 people within 5 years.

The intention is to work with the local communities to achieve this and with the broader Cumbrian and regional communities.

If you want to learn more or are interested in taking part in the development, register your interest with [email protected]

Working for a secure and sustainable future for Carlisle Airport.

[goatface]

And who is going to fund all of this? sounds like the usual nonsense that has surrounded Carlisle Airport for many years.

Note that it's a GMAIL address for enquiries, they "mystery bidder" can't even raise their own web site. Probably Nigerian, possibly Martin Halsted undoubtedly Micky Mouse.

[Expressflight]

I think you'll find that the person behind this bid is that 'interesting' individual Peter Elliott. Need I say more?

[NorthernMonkey69]

Peter Elliott, i believe is only fronting the bid for the 'mystery buyer' as he did when negotiating the previous deal for Andrew Tinkler/Stobarts when he bought the lease from Lord Ballyedmond.

[learjet50]

yes u may say some more

who is Peter Elliot please?

[SWBKCB]

Not Stobart's No.1 fan?

It's a long story - go to the Carlisle News and Star website and put his name into the search function - all will be revealed...

[niknak]

Peter Elliot is a bankrupt "avaition consultant", his credentials appear to lack some authenticity in respect of his track record as an expert in his chosen field.

This proposal is a a complete non starter.

[Red Four]

Trying again it appears, hope it goes through:

Cumberland News | News | Carlisle airport revamp must not stall again, say Cumbrian business chiefs (http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/news/critical-that-carlisle-airport-take-off-is-not-stalled-again-1.796916?referrerPath=news)

[Aero Mad]

Who's going to join me on bets that this consultant chap is going to suggest they follow the footsteps of John Lennon and Robin Hood; call it Publius Aelius Hadrianus Airport? :ok:

[niknak]

The planning application assumes there would be 3,650 passenger and 1,560 cargo flights each year by 2025 and an average of 276 heavy-lorry movements each day.


and the last bit of the sentance says it all.

Quite clearly, once Stobart get the requisite planning permission, the can continue to develop the vehicle transport operation at the airport and could easily have the 270 or so lorry movements every day within a month from now.

The airport side will remain undeveloped as, within the planning permission, they have just under 15 years to arrange for just one scheduled passenger flight per day to operate from the airport, in fact, they are not legally obliged to do that.

I can't belive that anyone who is supporting the development of the airport hasn't seen through all of this.

But it doesn't matter as if Stobart don't get what they want, they'll relocate to Cheshire and sell Carlisle Airport at the best price they can get, I'd wager that it almost certainly won't be to anyone with any aviation interests and there's nothing the local authority will be able to do about it.

Either way, Stobart speak with forked tongues with regard to the airport development.
It won't happen.:ugh::hmm::rolleyes:

[Jamesair]

Don't you think they might be interested in an air freight operation to link in with the road transport network?

[LGS6753]

Maths, Niknak:

3,650 passenger flights per year is ten (flights) per day.
1,560 cargo flights per year is 30 (flights) per week.

[F.A.TAlbert]

Well I hope they get it all sorted out this time irrespective of the time or wish to develop the air side. That part of the country desperately needs more work and I think there will be a lot of 'knock on' benefits.

[niknak]

LGS6753

3,650 passenger and 1,560 cargo flights each year by 2025

Clean yer specs and re read:
They have 15 years to reach those figures, whereas Stobart could have 276 lorries operating in and out of there next week. Now you do the maths.:rolleyes:

Jamesair - air freight is unlikely as most of what Stobart haul would not be cost effective to fly to Carlisle and then put on a lorry.
Any other airfreight is well catered for in the north west by the proximity of Newcastle, Glasgow and Prestwick.
Purpose built facilities would be required for air freight at Carlisle and that would be a very expensive investment for little return.
I doubt that it would happen.

[Porrohman]

Maybe Stobart plan to use a fleet of these; BBC News - The new vehicle set to revolutionise the skies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12110386)

[Expressflight]

niknak

"Purpose built" facilities for airfreight seem to be exactly what are included within the plans. There is a dedicated freight apron with eleven aircraft stands, four of which are immediately adjacent to the freight terminal.

Quite how eleven stands could ever be needed at CAX is rather beyond me, but that is what the plans show.

[compton3bravo]

I see the redevelopment plans have been resubmitted after the original one was thrown out. The new one doesn't include a PASSENGER TERMINAL. Comments please.

[Rhayader]

Stobarts are only interested in the road freight facilities. An extensive site only a few miles from the M6/M74. Airport development is an exercise with smoke and mirrors.

[highwideandugly]

hi all...anyone out there tell us what the situation is at Carlisle?

i heard a new planning application has been lodged but with no provision for passengers? does that mean it will be a freight only airport and what plans are there for services?

have they started extending the runway? and which airlines are being targeted?

[Danscowpie]

Its been done to death already, check through the archives.

Howver,all you need to know is that Carlisle has no future as an airport but a big one as a Haulage Distribution base for Stobart, especially as with effect from today, there are no Stobart family members on the board of any the Stobart Companies and the company is majority controlled by Venture Capitalists.

[west lakes]

Temporary use

BBC News - Carlisle picked to host Radio 1 Big Weekend music event (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-12905024)

Might make more noise than a few freight aircraft :}

[NutLoose]

Sad to say, Mr Stobart jr has passed away.

BBC News - Haulage magnate Edward Stobart dies, aged 56 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-12923203)

[SWBKCB]

The saga continues - must admit that in my view the consultants have got it spot on (and how that hurts!)

News & Star | Carlisle council delays decision on Stobart Group's city airport plan (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/carlisle-council-delays-decision-on-stobart-group-s-city-airport-plan-1.858545?referrerPath=home)

[McGoonagall]

I can not honestly see how a Carlisle-Southend service would work. Given that the service would be mainly used by business travelers then a comparison needs to be taken with existing rail services. Virgin offer a first service of the day 0543 arr 0904 for £150 walk up single. For the air to compare it would have to have an airport arrival at 0545, off stand at 0615, on stand at 0730ish, transfer to station and depart at 0800 for an hours journey to London.

To be competitive on cost and time it would need a walk up fare of £140 single.

A few chaps I know do the sensible thing, book the sleeper from Carlisle to London the night before, leave their cabin after breakfast and use the shower facilities to change before leaving Euston about 0800 for whatever they have to do. First Class fare about the same as Virgin.

If it was Carlisle-Luton (tapping into Wizzair/EasyJet) to Stansted or even Gatwick it could work as they are hub airports.

IMHO Stobarts just want the land and the HGV terminal. Given that, then air operations would wither on the vine in less than a few years.

[Bartrams]

Interesting developments!

Can someone with more local knowledge me...confirm/deny that there is a 10 year lease on the airport,which ends december? meaning after that time the site does not have to have aviation development?
surely Stobs. could move in after then and turn the site in to a transport centre(surely their preferred option?) I heard this a few yeaRS ago
but not sure if correct?

carlisle has never handled more than 10000pax. in any year and probably a lot less than that. No profits there then?
If newcastle cant hold on to a stansted service with 120000+ pax a year then what hope carlisle to southend?

Im afraid the halcyon days of aviation have gone and the future for airfields of this size are bleak..just look across the hills to teesside/mme/dtv!!

[SWBKCB]

From the Carlisle City planning document:

Generally property matters, including leases, are not usually relevant to the determination of a planning application but the applicant refers to its lease of the Airport so some brief background explanation may assist. As is well known, the City Council is the freehold owner of the Airport and granted (on the 31st May 2001) a 150 year lease of the Airport to Haughey Airports Ltd, a lease which is now held by the Stobart Group. The Airport is now under the management of Stobart Air Ltd as part of the Stobart Group. The applicant has drawn attention to that part of the Lease regarding keeping the Airport open. The Lease requires the Airport not to be used other than for aviation, or B1 – B8 and C1 Uses, or for agriculture.but also specifies that a tenant (after the expiry of the tenth year of the Term) may close the Airport for airport operations if the tenant is able to demonstrate that it is not capable of economic operation as a commercial airport when managed by a reasonably competent operator.

As I read it, after 10 years they can apply to stop using it for aviation purposes, but that doesn't mean they can then do what they like.

[Danscowpie]

As I read it, after 10 years they can apply to stop using it for aviation purposes, but that doesn't mean they can then do what they like.

I'd love to see Carlisle have an aviation future but it just isn't commercially viable and never will be.

Come the moment, Stobart will merely point out to the Local authority that their plans to develop the site as a major transport base will bring far greater long term local employment and a vastly greater economic contribution to the region than the airport ever would and their plans will sail through.

Not only that, they'll be perfectly justified.

[JKKne]

Slightly OT of sorts but that Eddie Stobart programme on Channel 5 featured the archaic Southend Airport fire engines being replaced by shiny new ones from Carlisle who were getting the archaic one in its place.

Sums it up :E

Carlisle probably only has a future as a cargo hub and I hope the City backs it. There's very little opportunity in Carlisle and when you have a brand company like Stobart in the area it surely makes sense to back them.

[greywind]

If newcastle cant hold on to a stansted service with 120000+ pax a year then what hope carlisle to southend?

Newcastle lost the Stansted service as they couldn't compete with the fact that once you've factored in checking in and then getting from Stansted into London the train was a lot quicker. I'm not sure how quick the train service from Carlisle is but it would certainly prove a tough rival for flights going into Southend once you've factored in the travel from there.

[Phileas Fogg]

It's 3.5 hours by train Carlisle London, a comparison to air from Carlisle:

Travel Carlisle to Airport: 0.5hrs
Check-in: 0.5hrs
Flight block time: 1.25hrs (ish)
Collect bags, walk to station, wait for train: 0.5hrs
Train in to London: 1.0hr

Time to Spare ? ... Go by Air !

[GAXLN]

The problem the easyjet Newcastle-Stansted route encountered in his latter days were increases in Air Passenger Duty (it ended up at £24 for a return ticket). It was probably accounting for about a third of the average fare which, given easyjet's average profit across their entire network is only c£5 per seat, made the economics very difficult. Until APD goes, small airports will never prosper as there's little money to be made in UK domestic aviation at present. Let's hope the Government recognises soon that aviation is a stimulant to the economy not a cash cow to be milked dry.

[JKKne]

Equally though on the Stansted route Newcastle had better links to Gatwick and Heathrow which offer far more connections and are both better located for London.

I'd imagine most pax from Newcastle transit through to another destination from LHR and LGW especially with the BE/BA codeshares.

Jet2 didn't want the route, easyjet couldn't make it pay.

Carlisle is a slightly different proposition as it has zero links to anywhere to compete with

[ncleflights]

GAXLN - Have to agree it was APD that killed off the STN -NCL route. Its APD that would, I suspect, hold back a similar venture from Carlisle.

[west lakes]

Given that the longest runway (07/25) is only 1837m and restricted to 12.5T it will need a lot of development to bring it up to spec for a B73x or A32x to actually use it with any useful payload!

[SWBKCB]

Couple of interesting recent stories - the plans for Tesco's look "innovative"...

News & Star | News | Carlisle City Council criticised over handling of city airport applications (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-city-council-criticised-over-handling-of-city-airport-applications-1.875642?referrerPath=home/2.1962)


News & Star | News | Stobart group hits back at Carlisle airport critics (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/stobart-group-hits-back-at-carlisle-airport-critics-1.873260?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

[SWBKCB]

the saga drags on...

News & Star | News | Fresh delay for Stobart Group's Carlisle Airport planning application (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/fresh-delay-for-stobart-group-s-carlisle-airport-planning-application-1.958992?referrerPath=home)

[SWBKCB]

No wonder that Stobart's have asked for more time to prepare their case - is RE operating twice a day CAX-SEN viable?

News & Star | Passenger flights not viable from Carlisle Airport, says expert's report (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/passenger-flights-not-viable-from-carlisle-airport-says-expert-s-report-1.960627?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

[vulcanised]

Interesting that, from that report, no consideration appears to have been given to pax wishing to travel into Carlisle.

Is it that unnatractive?

[stluke45]

I would have thought there would be good demand for travel to Carlisle from the London Southend area, I know many friends and family who would love to explore the greater lake district area but are put off by the approx 6 hour drive and cost of fuel (a car hire facility would be needed at Carlisle would be required)

[vulcanised]

Those were exactly my thoughts.

I'm sure there would be a lot of people wanting to make that trip in the summer months but it doesn't appear to have featured in that report.

[west lakes]

A lot of the controvosy seems to be being generated by consultants, a lot of the initial objections around noise came after a "consultant" started spreading scare stories about the size of aircraft that would use the airport, a patent bit of misdirection as the runway was never going to be long enough to handle them.

It is fair to say that passenger services have been tried and failed before and the competition from rail is huge, as is the competition from a number of larger airports all within 2 hours of Carlisle (OK slightly longer for folk out on the West Coast).

Whilst I do wish them success, I think Aer Arran only has through ticketing with Aer Lingus, so the Dublin connection makes sense, any other routes for connections could be risky.

Interestingly I was in the area today and Kirkbride (an unlicensed field) seemed busier than Carlisle!

[SWBKCB]

Two different sets of 'consultants' - the first numpty was actually a disgruntled former Stobart's discard, the latest report is from a firm advising the Council.

For what it's worth, I agree with the recent report - Stobart's are using the airport to get permission for a road haulage centre and their aviation plans look optimistic, especially with no ILS, etc.

[rowly6339]

I don't know why they are continuing to persue this as it has taken so long and so much £s already its just a standing joke now. Stobarts should just sell up and cut there losses.

[west lakes]

These are interesting though and add to the story somewhat.

January | 2012 | Solway Aviation Museum (http://www.solway-aviation-museum.co.uk/?m=201201)

News & Star | News | Stobart Group's pledge to aviation museum at Carlisle Airport (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/stobart-group-s-pledge-to-aviation-museum-at-carlisle-airport-1.912376?referrerPath=home).

Though not publicised Carlisle does pay host to a number of military flights and activities, it is also used by SAR helicopters for fuel.

[PlymouthPixie]

Are there many daily movements at Carlisle?

[rowly6339]

I believe this airport will now be a car park for Autologic :(

[NutLoose]

vulcanised
*
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 382
Interesting that, from that report, no consideration appears to have been given to pax wishing to travel into Carlisle.

Is it that unnatractive?


Yes...

Plus it has the road system and standard of maintenance thereof which would make a third world countries look good..

The main police station is still housed in a shop in the town centre after the floods several years ago..

They had a beautiful old town centre of lanes they procrastinated over rebuilding for so long it partially fell down itself, resulting in the rest getting demolished..

They built a swimming pool a couple of feet short of a competition size meaning it could never hold proper competitions..

They built a multi function leisure centre, that is smaller ( and just about useless for any major events ) than some of the outskirts areas of other Cities have..

Disaster of a bridge to the Castle

The Council has never spent money where it needs to and when they do spend it the make an utter cock up of it... They are so narrow minded they cannot see the benefits the airport would bring to the region, I always felt sorry for the past owners of the Airport, most have wanted to improve it, but working with the Council one always felt they would do better entering a one legged ass kicking competition..

Don't get me wrong, the City has some beautiful buildings, Old courts, Cathedral, Castle etc, the rest is underdeveloped and downright shoddy..

Ohh and I come from Carlisle.

[CKT789]

Nutloose - when were you last in Carlisle? The police have a new station at Durranhill (...and they had to be accommodated temporarily in the city centre because the floods ruined the original station). Plus the fire brigade now has two new stations. A new bypass has now opened providing better access from West Cumbria to the M6 (without the need to travel through the city centre). Also the bypass shortens the time people from the west of the city will need to get to the airport as it ends at the Kingstown junction which means it is just then a 10 min drive along the A69 to reach the airport.

Also the Sands Centre does an ok job at attracting acts now (years ago it seemed to have been built to solely house Daniel O'Donnell concerts but the growing student population has started to attract many comedians, Lee Evans, Sarah Millican, etc.). Plus the town centre is a lot better than many I've seen.

I was born in Cumbria, grew up in Carlisle and still go back frequently. I really want to see the airport developed from something more than it is just now.

I must admit I struggle to believe a route with that frequency to SEN will work because of the frequency and journey time of the train to London. A link to a major hub is needed for both incoming and outgoing passengers. There are a lot of SMEs based at the old 14MU which is now a large industrial estate (which is also on the bypass) and I know of some companies there that are dealing with businesses overseas and could do with a link to a hub. Once daily on a prop would probably be sufficient. The council would probably need to step in to assist with marketing initially though as past attempts at linking London have often suffered from a lack of publicity.

[west lakes]

I heard recently that the "modern" fire tenders have been relocated, that there is little fire cover so that public transport flights can probably no longer be handled!

[vulcanised]

Yes, I believe that Stobart swapped the tenders between Carlisle and Southend.

[ConstantFlyer]

Carlisle Airport could serve not only Cumbria and The Lake District, but also Dumfries and Galloway. Although North West England no longer has a regional development agency, Scotland certainly does, and it would be interesting to know whether supporting regional development in South West Scotland could extend to promoting inward investment and businesses using Carlisle Airport as a gateway to D&G.

Instead of a link to the South East of England, I would have thought that a link to Manchester Airport would provide better transit options.

[highwideandugly]

sorry to invade your forum from DTV...however we are all in the same boat(in my opinion) If DTV with a pop.of 3 million(inc area) can not succeed there is no chance that Carlisle with circa 200K pop.can?

The dice is weighted against us.We have NCL and Leeds doing well..you have unfortunately not a lot.Plenty of connections from Newcastle,Manchester and Scotland.

I fear the days of the smaller airports are numbered.

Take what you can..have the logistics Stobbarts propose with the jobs and be thankful! Probably more jobs anyway in the long run?

hope its not too controversial...

[SWBKCB]

The chance that CAX has got is that Stobart's want to build a road haulage depot on the site, but they will only get planning permission from the LA as part of a scheme to develop the airport (and that is looking dodgy).

At DTVA, there is already an operational airport and there is plenty of scope for development. I'm sure Peel would love to have a successful airport there as it will make their life easier with the LA's, but unfortunately it's losing too much money while the property development market is tanking.

[highwideandugly]

SWCB yes but look at sheffield coventry plymouth(?) et all.. much bigger potential than carlisle..what happened there?

DTV is an operational airport but i feel days are numbered there as well with the infrastructure wrecked.Massive investment needed over and above..

at least carlisle does have a chance with some jobs and that is better than non today? the area is struggling big time.100 jobs(guess) would be better than a very small struggling regional airport (75 jobs guess) which probably would need some investment from the local authorities/

[CabinCrewe]

depends what you call a success. I cannot imagine Carlisle ever expects to be as big as DTV , however there is scope for it to be a niche local regional airport plus cargo, all of which could be profitable. Cant see a Scottish regional development fund getting involved however....

[HZ123]

Never say never as that was the view of SEN - it would never happen ! Well it has.

It is not so much the start as the prospects, it took LCY 20 years to become profitable and in that time who knows how much has been written off.

The issue is the routes and a/c to operate them profitably. Most regional types of aircraft are to small to make adequate return unless enjoying government support within the EU.

[Barling Magna]

Yes, all those years of praying for a single scheduled service to Amsterdam or Paris from SEN to add to the solitary summer Saturday schedule to Jersey....and now there are 66,000 passengers flying from SEN in May alone. Amazing, and I still have to pinch myself to believe it is happening, especially in such grim times as these.

But compared to Carlisle SEN does have the advantage of London on its doorstep (or 50 minutes away by train).........

[SWBKCB]

Decision on planning permission now likely 3 August (?)

News & Star | News | 'New Carlisle airport plans should be scrapped' - farmer (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/new-carlisle-airport-plans-should-be-scrapped-farmer-1.973026?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

This link also has some relevance!

News & Star | News | Business | New trains to ease overcrowding on Carlisle-Manchester Airport route (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/new-trains-to-ease-overcrowding-on-carlisle-manchester-airport-route-1.974176?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

[vulcanised]

What an appropriate name that nimby farmer has.

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Stobart Group gets go-ahead for Carlisle Airport scheme (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/stobart-group-gets-go-ahead-for-carlisle-airport-scheme-1.982191?referrerPath=home)

[Barling Magna]

So Cumbrians can now fly down to Southend and visit London, or transfer to EZY flights to Europe. Surely quicker to troll along to Glasgow or Blackpool....? Or perhaps not - those Cumbrian roads are a tad slow going.....

I think there would be a fair demand from South Essex to fly up to Carlisle for a Lake District holiday though. I know I'm going to use that service if it ever starts.

[onyxcrowle]

Assuming it happens then it's good news for Carlisle

[LGS6753]

I'm sure those in Cumbria are delighted with this decision, and it must be welcome in a part of the country where there is little work.
But hasn't the UK got enough airports? Look at the well-documented problems in Coventry, Plymouth, Manston and Teesside to say nothing of Cardiff, Blackpool, Robin Hood, Prestwick and others.
Stobarts have done well at Southend, but Essex is very different to Cumbria.

Despite my reservations, I wish them well.:ok:

[Maxsoo]

Hi can anyone tell me if the flight path will go over Carlisle? I have been trying to find this info on the web with no luck. Many thanks

[GrahamK]

It does, but they're rather high at that point so you barely notice them

[NorthSouth]

can anyone tell me if the flight path will go over CarlisleIt already does and no change is planned to the runway alignment. If you haven't noticed any planes yet, you won't notice them in future.

What bothers me - and I can't see any evidence that anyone's raised it - is commercial passenger transport aircraft regularly flying within a mile of the Spadeadam range boundary and in an area where high energy manoeuvring by military fast jets is the main aviation activity. And all this to an airport with no radar, next to a military range that has radar but doesn't normally provide air traffic services to civil aircraft.

NS

[vulcanised]

There's a similar situation at Southend with the D138 complex (IIRC operated by Qinetiq these days).

It's sometimes an inconvenience, for sure, but no more than that.