Carlisle

[mrmum]

next to a military range that has radar but doesn't normally provide air traffic services to civil aircraft.
Unless Spade. have traffic in the bottom of the range, or entering/exiting to/from the South. In which case they always want you on freq. if you're in the AIAA and give a traffic service, but insist on calling it basic. If you're flying the IAP to RWY25, then it's co-ordinated by landline with Carlisle ATC.

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Carlisle Airport: Legal and planning obstacles still remain (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-airport-legal-and-planning-obstacles-still-remain-1.982464?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

News & Star | News | Business (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/carlisle-airport-revamp-will-boost-business-says-stobart-boss-andrew-tinkler)

[NorthSouth]

There's a similar situation at Southend with the D138 complexNot really. D138 has no aircraft in it and the boundary parallels, rather than intersecting the final approach track.
NS

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | Still no take off for Carlisle airport - three months after go-ahead (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/still-no-take-off-for-carlisle-airport-three-months-after-go-ahead-1.1009213?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

[onyxcrowle]

Any update on Carlisle airport

[SWBKCB]

The city council this week received a solicitor’s letter, sent on behalf of objector Gordon Brown, demanding that it revisits the decision to grant planning permission. consent has yet to be signed off because one of the conditions set has still to be fulfilled. The letter from Dickinson Dees argues that, where consent has not been confirmed, the council can reconsider its decision if “new material of relevance” comes to light.

The thrust of the letter is that councillors passed what planning officers said was a “finely-balanced” application because they were swayed by Aer Arann’s promise of scheduled passenger flights. The airline wrote in support of Stobart’s scheme, saying it would station a 48-seater ATR42 aircraft at Carlisle to provide twice-daily flights to London Southend and a daily Dublin service.

Dickinson Dees points to Aer Arann’s recent decision to withdraw from Waterford Airport in Ireland. The three routes from Waterford carried 66,756 passengers in the year to October, roughly the same as the projections for passenger numbers from Carlisle. The letter says: “If the 66,756 passengers carried by Aer Arann on the Waterford routes were insufficient to sustain those routes....passenger numbers from Carlisle will not be able to sustain the proposed routes.The cessation of all services at Waterford Airport by Aer Arann is clearly a material consideration.”

The letter warns that, if the council confirms planning consent without taking account of this new information, its decision “would clearly be susceptible to challenge by way of judicial review”.

What there getting at is that in a letter to the council during the planning process, Aer Arann said it expected to carry 40,000 passengers to Southend and 20,000 to Dublin in the first year, so less that the number which was unsustainable at Waterford.


News & Star | Fresh doubts about Carlisle airport redevelopment plans (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/fresh-doubts-about-carlisle-airport-redevelopment-plans-1.1018552?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

News & Star | News | Business | Airline shake-up (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/airline-shake-up-no-danger-to-carlisle-airport-1.1012931?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

[Phileas Fogg]

It's an interesting point but it's not just about numbers but yield, what fares are being charged, load factors, I've just done a quick calculation on the presumption that with 12 services of 48 seats weekly in each direction to/from SEN that's 1,152 seats per week, 40,000 divided by 52.14 weeks per year = 767 passengers per week with equates to expected, first year, load factors of 66.5% which I would suggest to be bl00dy excellent figures on such a route and in the first year.

Of course objector(s) don't want to listen to such reasoning!

[SWBKCB]

Of course, the people raising the issue don't want the development to happen.

But it's a fair point - you base your business case for the airport on 60,000 passengers, but then shortly afterwards shut down a base with a higher figure.

The questions there to be answered.

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Carlisle airport revamp will boost house prices (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-airport-revamp-will-boost-house-prices-1.1025523?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

News & Star | News | Top Cumbria police officer denies claims he quashed probe (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/top-cumbria-police-officer-denies-claims-he-quashed-probe-1.1028310?referrerPath=home/2.1962)

[vulcanised]

Thanks for those links.

As a (small) Stobart shareholder, the Directors dealings often worry me.

[rowly6339]

News & Star | News | Carlisle airport decision delayed again over 'aid' claim (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-airport-decision-delayed-again-over-aid-claim-1.1030598?referrerPath=news)

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Carlisle Airport plans poised for take off (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-airport-plans-poised-for-take-off-1.1031584?referrerPath=news/newsfocus)

How long before the next barrier is thrown up?

[vulcanised]

Fingers crossed, although I wonder when Farmer Brown will be at it again.

Does he have supporters, or is he just a selfish nimby?

[SWBKCB]

I do wonder how he pays his legal fees if he doesn't have supporters.

[Leg]

Frankly it's outrageous that one person can object and hold
everything up, what happened to the greater good?
This guy with the unfortunate name is taking the :mad:

[onyxcrowle]

It happened with the Aberdeen bypass . One man held the Scottish government to ransom , Now hes moved to Newcastle!

[SWBKCB]

One man held the Scottish government to ransom , Now hes moved to Newcastle!

If he gets together with Mr Brown in Carlisle, we could be in real trouble!

[mikeygd]

Does he have supporters, or is he just a selfish nimby? There must be loads of other people against this development. Mr Elliott for one, and..... erm...

[SWBKCB]

Gosh, what a surprise...

News & Star | News | New legal challenge over Carlisle Airport redevelopment decision (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/new-legal-challenge-over-carlisle-airport-redevelopment-decision-1.1035747?referrerPath=home)

[Mickey Kaye]

and who is paying for it

[vulcanised]

That was my immediate thought !

The local community will be paying twice in terms of lost employment prospects.

[mikkie4]

sounds much the same thing as the idiots that tried to stop stobarts & SEN from becoming a nothing airport to a modern and so far sucsessfull airport,hope that the outcome for carslile & stobarts are the same as SEN

[SWBKCB]

While I wonder how Mr Brown funds all these legal challenges as well, this isn't the case of a new SEN being held back - CAX can't be compared to SEN.

This is all about Stobart's getting a new haulage depot, any development on the aviation side will be a bonus.

[rowly6339]

News & Star | News | Business | Stobart Group boss hopes for flights from Carlisle next summer (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/stobart-group-boss-hopes-for-flights-from-carlisle-next-summer-1.1056771?referrerPath=home)

[onyxcrowle]

Any news on this?

[rowly6339]

Stobarts still awaiting the go ahead and are still throwing money away while this is being dragged throught he courts yet again:ugh:

[putneyuk]

Stobartfest at Carlisle this weekend apart from the drivers and trucks includes an ATR to show the sort of aircraft they intend to operate from here

[onyxcrowle]

Still no news about when and if they will operate.
I thought the runway was in need of works before anything could operate?

[Red Four]

Here's the local paper on the Stobart Fest visit:
in-cumbria | Plane indicates size of things to come at Carlisle Airport (http://www.in-cumbria.com/plane-indicates-size-of-things-to-come-at-carlisle-airport-1.1085810)

[mikeygd]

A date has been set for a legal hearing to decide the fate of plans to overhaul Carlisle Airport.

Stobart Group wants to run commercial passenger flights from Carlisle Airport

Carlisle City Council’s decision to allow the development’s go-ahead is being taken to a judicial review.
The challenge against that decision will be held between February 18 and 20, most likely at the Royal Courts of Justice in London.
There is more, see News & Star | News | Date set for hearing into Stobart's Carlisle Airport plans (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/date-set-for-hearing-into-stobart-s-carlisle-airport-plans-1.1086094)

[highwideandugly]

Had to escape the DTV thread, all rather depressing! However it got me thinking about Carlisle...does the "panel" think the odd goings on over here will have any impact on the future hearings and destiny of Carlisle?

My thoughts if an established airport with the catchment area of Teesside cant succeed,what chance does a green field site starting afresh?

[onyxcrowle]

Carlisle tho might do Ok. Seeing how Newcase is a pain to get to with the A69.
Glasgow is a fair drive . Beeching stole the rail link to Edinburgh , And Manchester / Leeds are also a fair trip in a car.
That being said I imagine there must be a decent rail service to Manchester.
Also Stobart seemed to have pulled a good deal for SEN. I wonder if done right and being in a reasonably good location Carlisle might pull in a fair catchment.
Scottish Borders Eg Dumfries down to Barrow and Probably areas east of it.
With decent fares it might prove ok?

[davidjohnson6]

Cumbria and Northumberland are the 2 counties in England with the lowest population density - that means lots of space with not many people.

[SWBKCB]

CAX and MME are similar in that both owners see them as development sites, with some limited aviation activity attached to keep the planners etc happy.

Very limited scope for airline operations, also how would RE operating CAX-SEN fit in with the Aer Lingus Regional/Aer Arran deal?

CAX also has the advantage that the owner needs somewhere to base their biz jet.

[vulcanised]

Is there much/any local support for the troublesome farmer?

[onyxcrowle]

Why not Close MME to passengers. Redeploy the Klm to DSA.
And Also Aberdeen to DSA.
Keep MME for business and try get some of that money they had been chasing for Carlisle

[davidjohnson6]

onyx - Carlisle and MME airports are owned by different private companies. Govt does not have the right to dictate what private companies do, unless you live in a communist country like the Soviet Union. Peel, Stobart, Eastern Airways and KLM are 4 very separate companies who each act entirely in their own interest

In addition, if 2 or more separate companies appear to do deals so as to do each other favours, they may be breaking competition law, and the directors of the 2 companies could well end up in court charged with serious offences.

I know you're a strong supporter of DSA, but please try to think through the implications of what you're saying before you post.

[GrahamK]

Plus, I think it's been proven that people do not want to fly to Doncaster.

If CAX can advertise itself as a gateway to the Lakes, then maybe. But the SEN route would be up against a very good Virgin Trains service

[LBIA]

onyxcrowle I know you a big supporter of DSA, but do you really think KLM and Eastern would move there MME flights 90 miles down the A19/A1 to DSA, As both routes are operated by the same airlines from both LBA and HUY?

To be honest with you if MME did close (which its not yet!) I think passengers would vote with there feet and chose flights from NCL instead as its closer. Anyway Sorry for the thread drift and lets get back on topic as this is the CAX thread not MME, LBA, DSA or NCL.

[Mickey Kaye]

"Stobart Group wants to build a 394,000sq ft freight distribution centre and to resurface the runway for scheduled passenger flights to London Southend and Dublin. Carlisle City Council granted planning permission in February.

But that decision is being challenged by Irthington farmer Gordon Brown, who lives opposite the airport."

Who is paying for all of these challengers it must be costs farmer Brown an absolute fortune.

[davidjohnson6]

Who is paying for all of these challengers it must be costs farmer Brown an absolute fortune.

It's possible there is a Protective Costs Order in place

[CKT789]

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/stobart-plans-alternative-to-carlisle-airport-scheme-1.1097268

Alternative plans being made for warehouse elsewhere in Carlisle by Stobarts. They already have a depot near the proposed new site which is right next to the M6.

[tws123]

Hearing rumours that Stobart are giving up on Carlisle Airport because of the ongoing legal battle to get the project moving? Sadly this would result in the airport closing and consequently no Dublin or London-Southend routes launched. Anyone have any info on this?

[N707ZS]

What would happen to Stobart's private jet if Carlisle did close?

[Buster the Bear]

Probably like Dyson, it would move from Lyneham to Bristol and use the DCOI more?

In the Stobart case, you could still have a runway and build all around, as there is no requirement for terminals and car parks?

[bad bear]

I believe the Stobart's private jet was disposed of a long time ago

bb

[SWBKCB]

There will be no building without the airport development. Stobarts already have planning permission for their 'plan B' depot in north Carlisle

[vulcanised]

I get the impression that all the delays are down to just one man.

Is that the case, or is there more local opposition?

[SWBKCB]

If it is one man, he's got deep pockets...

[SWBKCB]

Hearing rumours that Stobart are giving up on Carlisle Airport because of the ongoing legal battle to get the project moving?

Back in court this week, so doesn't look like it

News & Star | News | Carlisle airport expansion battle back in court (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-airport-expansion-battle-back-in-court-1.1117782)

[highwideandugly]

Any update on hearing from anyone?

[tibbs87]

A decision to be made in the next 3 weeks

News & Star | News | Carlisle Airport decision likely in next three weeks (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-airport-decision-likely-in-next-three-weeks-1.1118464)

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | 51% stake in Carlisle's Eddie Stobart firm to be sold (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/51-stake-in-carlisle-s-eddie-stobart-firm-to-be-sold-1.1120994)

Interesting to see how this affects the airport development - in my view the business case for the airport doesn't stack up without the logistics development, so what happens now they are in two separate businesses?

[vulcanised]

I wouldn't be surprised if Stobart have already given up on plans for Carlisle.

Who can blame them?

[SWBKCB]

They were back in the High Court only a couple of weeks ago - if they were thinking of dropping out, I would have thought before they incurred all that extra cost would have been a good breakpoint.

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | High Court verdict throws Carlisle Airport plans into disarray (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/high-court-verdict-throws-carlisle-airport-plans-into-disarray-1.1124604)

Mr Justice Collins, one of the country’s most experienced planning judges, allowed the challenge by Gordon Brown, from Irthington and quashed the latest planning permission for a new freight storage and distribution facility at the airport.

The judge said that Mr Brown’s claim succeeded, though only on one ground put forward by him. That was failure by the planners to properly consider the viability of the expansion plans.


In a statement issued following the hearing, a Stobart Group spokesman said: “We are disappointed in what the court found was a borderline decision but obviously respect the court’s findings. However we are encouraged that the vast majority of Mr Brown’s arguments were rejected by the court.

“We have worked so hard to build a bigger and better Carlisle Lake District airport. Through our Stobart airline investment [formally Aer Arann, this week renamed as Stobart Air] our plans would have created a huge opportunity for the region.

"These plans included a daily flight to Dublin (and via customs clearance in Dublin, to the United States) and two daily flights to London and the South-East through our London Southend Airport. This would have been fantastic for the people of Carlisle and the surrounding region and would have allowed tourists from London and the South-East and the USA direct access to the Lake District, Carlisle and surrounding area.

“We still firmly believe that a thriving Carlisle Lake District airport will provide economic growth and jobs for the people of Carlisle and the surrounding area and to that end we intend to submit a new application taking into account today’s finding.”

The Stobart statement looks a bit disingenuous - the borderline decision was surely whether to allow permission, not the judges to overturn the permission.

And the permission may have only been overturned on one point, but that point was the "failure by the planners to properly consider the viability of the expansion plans"

[highwideandugly]

Sorry to jump from the dtv thread...but I am struggling to see how Carlisle can succeed where the other mentioned are really struggling.

Manston with a fantastic runway,dtv with the population....Carlisle with...let's be honest not a lot?

12 million people visiting the lakes.arrive at the airport.then what? Still 30 plus miles .. Car hire,excess baggage(boots) children walking gear? It's not going to happen sorry. Pack the car from 90% of the uk and it's not a problem.

Stobart want the land for a warehouse..fact!! Don't spool a fantastic area for the sake of 100!jobs.

Dtv. We are a lost cause also!!:ugh:

[nighthawk117]

As part of the airport redevelopment plans, Stobart plan to build a freight distribution centre at the airport, which will become their main operating base. If the plans fall through, then Stobart have threatened to move their base outside of Carlisle, at the cost of 650 jobs.

The freight hub will provide valuable rental income for the airport, which will help to subsidise operation of the airfield. As most of the facilities at Carlisle will be newly built, they can be designed in such a way as to keep the maintenance costs as low as possible. This will give the airport a much lower cost base than the likes of Durham Tees Valley or Manston. This may be enough to keep the airfield viable.

Personally I am sceptical at the demand for passenger flights from Carlisle. I really cant see the demand for flights to London. Carlisle is well connected to London by train, so there is no advantage of flying. Unless connections can be offered at the other end, and at a reasonable cost, then there's just no demand there.

Dublin I can see working on a twice weekly service to allow for weekend breaks, but I can't see demand for a daily service. There may also be limited demand for European charters.

I think the main possibility for Carlisle exists in the freight market. With Stobarts moving their base to the airport and opening a freight distribution centre, then it offers a good opportunity to operate an airfreight operation, flying cargo in to Carlisle for distribution through the Stobart network.

The business case for Carlisle airport is certainly marginal, but at the end of the day it is Stobart that is footing the bill, so if they are prepared to pay for it - let them. We all gain from a nice new airport, that may then be able to attract some flights.

[SWBKCB]

Fair analysis, although I don't think having the distribution centre at the airport will actually attract any air cargo - one minor correction. Although they have previously mentioned moving south, there is a plan 'B' to stay in Carlisle if the airport development doesn't get approved as they already have permission for another site (Kingmoor Park I think?)

[Fairdealfrank]

Personally I am sceptical at the demand for passenger flights from Carlisle. I really cant see the demand for flights to London. Carlisle is well connected to London by train, so there is no advantage of flying. Unless connections can be offered at the other end, and at a reasonable cost, then there's just no demand there.


Connections at the other end means LHR - ain't going to happen.

[nighthawk117]

You can also connect through LCY and LGW, but again neither is likely to happen.

In Stobarts press release regarding the Southend service they mentioned the presence of Easyjet at the airport, suggesting that connections on to the Easyjet network may be offered. However this would go against Easyjets model, and I doubt the 2x daily schedule will connect well with most of the destinations offered, so I can't see that happening either.

[Barling Magna]

Presumably connections would work with the half a dozen routes to be flown from SEN by flyBE in the Stobart Air franchise agreement though.... but I'm not sure that would attract many pax.

[nighthawk117]

That's quote possible, and presumably the CAX flights would also operate under the FlyBE brand. FlyBE offer connections.

[davidjohnson6]

Let's assume for a moment that the 6 destinations Flybe / Stobart chose to fly from Southend are mainly cities which do not have (or are about to lose) direct flights to SE England. This implies that these 6 cities do not have enough demand for a B737 / A320 from London.

If a route from London cannot support 150 pax per day, it seems very likely that demand for connections via Southend to/from Carlisle is likely to be very small. I just can't see many people wanting to fly Carlisle-Munster for example and would expect those travelling to/from Manchester or Glasgow would likely pick a route from MAN / GLA to an alternate airport instead.

[Phileas Fogg]

This implies that these 6 cities do not have enough demand for a B737 / A320 from London.

If a route from London cannot support 150 pax per day


Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa,

Just because a route cannot fill a once daily Airbus/Boeing does not mean the route cannot support 150 pax per day.

The NQY/LON/NQY route is a prime example of this, put a Y35 seater on it 4 times each day and the loads will average above break even, put a Y150 on it once a day and expect to lose money big time and very quickly.

Might we please get away from "the only way is loco" and get back to offering services at times when the travelling public actually want to travel.

That said I believe an ATR72 is an overkill for Carlisle, Carlisle needs a Y35 seater operation or below.

[davidjohnson6]

PF - you have a point about Newquay. I'd also tend to agree with you that a 70+ seater out of Carlisle is too big an aircraft at the moment - something from Loganair seems perhaps a little more appropriate.

However, I maintain that if a city has not been able to maintain A320 / B737 service to an airport near London, then the number of people wanting to fly via Southend to Cumbria is likely to be extremely small, and should be substantially ignored when forming any sort of business plan about commercial passenger flights to/from Carlisle.

[Phileas Fogg]

DJ6,

On the proviso that punters live in Carlisle centre then travelling to Carlisle Airport plus check-in equates to one hour, block time to SEN equates to another hour followed by train SEN to a London terminus another hour.

So Carlisle centre to London terminus by air is 3 hours ... How long does the train take?

[highwideandugly]

History tells us Carlisle is unable to sustain any schedule flights. Trips to the Isle of Man,2 or 3 per day 40 years ago maybe ..not now.for Iom read most destinations..it's not going to happen passenger wise.

So to freight..stobart shipping hundreds of tons of goods through the airport every day...not going to happen as not Eco friendly or cost effective.

This is purely about stobart building a distribution centre and the airport being a convenient excuse for it to happen?

[davidjohnson6]

PF - I'm not quite sure what you're asking. My point is that the number of people wanting to fly CAX-SEN and connecting onto somewhere else with Stobart would be extremely small. As an example, I don't see Carlisle-Munster via Southend as having any significant demand. In my posts this week, I don't recall having said anything particular about the point-to-point CAX-SEN market.

As a separate issue, it's my opinion that CAX-SEN if it comes to fruition would in itself struggle as Carlisle-Euston takes less than 3h30 with a train every hour. I'd tend to defer to others who know the Carlisle-London market better than me though.

[Phileas Fogg]

DJ6,

That's the point I was making, if a route to LONDON were available then it might work but the train is faster to LONDON than an aeroplane via SEN.

I recall EuroAir operating Budgies LHR-Carlisle-Dundee and return, that lasted about as long as any ATR72 operation to/from DUB and SEN will last.

[SWBKCB]

In their many statements about CAX during the long court battle, Stobarts have consistently talked about a based Atr-42 operating twice daily to SEN and daily to DUB (Aer Lingus on one side and Flybe on the other?), so lets not jump to any SEN based Atr-72 conclusions!

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Business | Objectors: Carlisle airport flights plan not viable (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/objectors-carlisle-airport-flights-plan-not-viable-1.1147000)

Louise Congdon, managing partner at York Aviation, says that flights to London Southend and Dublin would not be viable, even with a subsidy.



Her letter says that a Carlisle to London journey by air would be no quicker than the train, and Southend would offer few options for onward connecting flights.

It adds: “A realistic assessment of the current market for a service [to Southend] is of the order of 10,000 passengers per annum....below any realistic threshold for service viability.” Any subsidy, she says, would have to be “significantly greater” than the £250,000 promised by Stobart.

The letter concludes: “I remain of the view that air services are unlikely to be operated or, if operated at all, not sustained for more than a year or so once it is clear they are not capable of viable operation.”

[highwideandugly]

Just like dtv. It will never suceed. History tells us catchment can not support a via able airport.just like peel. Stobart has anoher agenda. And it's not airports!!!

[west lakes]

Carlisle City Council have approved planning permission to build a Freight Distribution Depot & upgrade the runway.

An interview with Stobart's CEO has suggested flights to DUB & SEN next year could be a possibility.
Whilst SEN may be not too useful a link to Aer Lingus at DUB could be advantageous


News & Star | News | Carlisle council gives go-ahead to city airport overhaul (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/carlisle-council-gives-go-ahead-to-city-airport-overhaul-1.1155741)

(though the pretty much sole objector will keep trying to stop them I expect)


A further interview with the Group CEO suggests the passenger flights will be a ATR 42 operation. An architects view show RJ85s as freight aircraft

[onyxcrowle]

Hiw long is tge runway going to be?. Can it Acceot Tge E170 or E190?
Ir even 737,600.
And what routes might be Viable.
Glasgow and Edinburgh are out of the question as they are too close, Unless they plan on doing An 'Aer Aran Islands, Conemara - Inishmore and the other aran islands). ,as a side note at Conemara when I was there out fkight was delayed slightly. In 45 mins i counted 7 take offs and landings.
Plus its just as busy on Inishmore.
Anyway the point if tgstvtale is, Is there a market for realky short intercity flights like they had years agio and like The Aer Arran Islands ops. (Thecreal original Aer Aran). Related ti the one just biught by stobart.
But coukd it work to operate 'Shuttke fkights' Using small Aircraft to the larger airports like Manchester.
Perhaos a J31. Or something.
I see Carlisle airport msybe if that runway is long enough, attracting incoming germsn and ither EU tourist flights . But agsin zi dont know if thats going to be possible.
I reckon within a short while of ipening , Youl see more routes and operators.
What routes do you guys think may be viable from there?.
Though if Scotland gets its way then tgsts going to be The UK's most Northely sirport. In which case id go fir expansion to take 737/A320 and try temo as much traffic from Edinburgh and Especially Glasgow. As there after battking the M8 uts nearly quicker to get to Carlisle.
Anyway excellent news . Is there a Website for it ?

[davidjohnson6]

Could well be wrong but understood the whole point of Aer Arann Islands was to connect offshore islands to the Irish mainland - perhaps similiar to Loganair offering service to Orkney, Shetland and the Hebrides, or the link from Newquay to the Isles of Scilly. Barring the Isle of Man which is already well connected to the UK, I can't think of many small populated offshore islands for which Carlisle (rather than Glasgow or Liverpool) would be the natural hub.

As for a J31 service to major cities in the UK, it would have to be competitive with the train. London might work, but lack of runway capacity and consequent high airport charges rules out the best options of Heathrow, Gatwick and City making London a less attractive option than might be hoped. As you say perhaps also a once per week to Dusseldorf if Carlisle runway is big enough. Worth noting that Cumbria is a rural area with relatively low population density and Carlisle is not a major city like Newcastle.

[SWBKCB]

Though if Scotland gets its way then tgsts going to be The UK's most Northely sirport. In which case id go fir expansion to take 737/A320 and try temo as much traffic from Edinburgh and Especially Glasgow. As there after battking the M8 uts nearly quicker to get to Carlisle.

So the SNP are planning to close all airports in Scotland after independence - WOW!

Being serious, I presume you mean England, in which case Newcastle is further north.

The airport is owned by Stobart who own Stobart Air, who fly for Aer Lingus and Flybe and who own Southend Airport. The only flights being proposed are to Dublin and Southend by Atr-42, which Stobarts own consultants say will need a subsidy of £250K.

Given this, and the lack of navigation aids and other facilities, any other flights seem unlikely (even a regional service to Walney Island!)

[ATNotts]

Sorry, but when I am reading threads I don't want to have to try too hard, but for heavens sake what are:-

tge Shuttke fkights and most confusing of all tgstvtale

I would have hoped that by the time we'd reached early middle age we'd be able to spell, or take the time to produce something readable!

[ericlday]

or use spell check or similar !

At 03.41 the medication is probably still in the system.

[west lakes]

Hiw long is tge runway going to be?.

The same length as it is now, just repaired to remove the 12.5 T weight limit!

The only proposals stated is for an ATR 42 for pax and a designer's model shows HS 146 freighters.

Looking at Google earth there is no easy viable option for increasing runway length without diverting roads

[TCAS FAN]

The current 07/25 runway could probably sustain ATR 42/72 operations, albeit with weight limitations, especially with a wet runway. If something larger is envisaged the problem is probably not extending the runway length but extending the declared distances to something nearer the current 1834 metres runway length.

The current restricted landing distances could be of more significance that the take-off runs available.The problem appears to be roads passing through the undershoot to both runways which then result in significant reductions.

The roads themselves are not the cause of this, its the 4.8 metres above the road level (to allow for a high sided vehicles) that requires the insetting of the thresholds.

Traffic control is a possibility, but as jumping the lights appears to be a national sport in the UK, CAA may not accept this a resolution.

If the road situation is resolved, the current runway with a 30 metre width could result in a take-off run/landing distance of up to 1799 metres. If anything greater is required, the runway will need returning to its original width, 45 metres?

Next problem would be re-locating the approach lighting, which may be outside the aerodrome boundary. Is this feasible?

What is the intended market for the airport, PAX and/or freight? If freight is intended presumably much larger aircraft will be required which will require the runway widening and extending plus the taxiway/apron infrastructure to support them. Hope Stobart have deep pockets if this is intended.

[Jamesair]

If StobartAir/Aer Arran fly from Carlisle to DUB as well as their successful route to DUB from NCL would they not be in competition with themselves?

[highwideandugly]

Come on guys...it will never happen! Stobarts want the land for a distribution centre..the airport is ( an expensive) smoke screen. There are at least 2 other better sites for their centre...not the agricultural(inland)Crosby area!!!

Not sure if and why they are pushing this site..maybe a local could tell us? The airport will never work and cost a fortune to develop.

Also. Read here? 250000k. Subsidy for services? Is that paid by the local council?its already cost 500k

Visions of grandeur me thinks....just like here at DTV!!:ugh:

[west lakes]

Come on guys...it will never happen! Stobarts want the land for a distribution centre

Of course, read the article!

The PP was for the distribution centre and the runway upgrade is just part of it. Anyone local knows that!

[onyxcrowle]

Sorry im havimg eyesight
Troubke due to floaters which are bad just now plus I swear I type the right words but the spell corrector keeps changing as I hit post.
Though this phone needs an os rebuild.
Its corrupted.
As For Carlisle I could see an Aer Aran Islands type service to Walney using probably Islanders .
Working well.
The Road from Barrow is Long. Id bet such a srrvice woukd becas buay As Conemara Airport.
If they ran it lime a bus service.
With Decent bus kinks to The Centre of Carlisle. And The Railway statiin .
Not to Mention The possible Business passengers yiud get From BAE systems , Heading to London.
So az an Idea that woukd make for a busy place.
But who would operate it?.
Coukd loganair spare any islanders?.
Or Woukdcstobart just buy them new abd Brand them Aer Aran

[GrahamK]

Folk from Barrow would be quicker using MAN. CAX-SEN (who really wants to go to Southend anyway??) would be up against a very quick train service, I'm not sure there is enough demand for an air service too.

[SWBKCB]

Air Furness flew Islanders to MAN from Barrow in the mid-80's

Bae have operated their own 'shuttle' from Walney Island to Farnborough for many years.

[EssexMan61]

What a truly STUPID STUPID post from GrahamK. One must clearly assume that he / she has an agenda to support another airport.


Well maybe Graham - people might enjoy the 46 minute journey to Stratford??? Are you just deliberately talking garbage or are you in the pay of some other airport?? Wow - what a strange person.

[SWBKCB]

Possibly an ever so slight over reaction there? :rolleyes:

There is probably little traffic between Carlisle and Southend itself - how many domestic routes has SEN got?

So if SEN is being used as a London Gateway, then the time benefits over the West Coast Main line aren't great. Of course, this relates to city centre to city centre travel and not everybody does that! I seem to remember this was discussed at great length early in this thread...

Changing subject, can somebody reminder me what nav aids CAX has (seem to remember not much) and whether there are any plans to upgrade?

[Tagron]

The navaids at CAX are an NDB and a DME. There are NDB(L)/DME procedures published for both ends, with OCHs for a Cat B aircraft ( I believe the ATRs fall in this category) of 500ft on 07 and 407ft on 25.

I don't know what is planned but I guess they would want an ILS at one end at least in order to lower the landing minima to improve schedule regularity once (if) airline services commence.

I would think they also would need to improve the approach lighting in order to get decent Cat 1 ILS minima. Runway centre line lights would improve take off minima and these could be incorporated when the runway is rebuilt. All a question I suppose of how much Stobart are prepared to spend on a loss making operation of which the primary function is to get them their distribution centre.

[Mickey Kaye]

Well at least they currently have an instrument approach to both runways.

Wouldn't putting an LPV approach onto the most commonly used runway the most cost effective method of getting ILS type minima?

[Tagron]

Yes an EGNOS based approach such as LPV or LNAV/VNAV would appear to offer the potential for Cat 1 limits without the need for the expense of the ILS ground installation. The downside is that aircraft would have to carry suitable equipment in order to use it, though I imagine that in time this will become the norm for commercial aircraft. I am not sure how the timing would work out for Stobart and CAX - for all I know they could already be planning for it.

Alderney appears to be the only UK airport publishing an LPV approach at present with a 300ft OCH though presumably other airports will follow suit. The procedures are more widely used already in continental Europe, mainly Germany and France but also Italy and Switzerland.

[Porrohman]

Full details of the aerodrome are available on the NATS site;

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=42&Itemid=91.html)

[highwideandugly]

Noted on the Southend thread...apparently no one has lodged objections to the development of the airport.....over to you Stobarts??

[Dontgothere]

Info from the Guardian suggests that a skeleton weekly service to Dublin and 2x weekly to SEN will take off next summer.

Carlisle becomes gateway to US in tie-up between Stobart Group and Aer Lingus | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/23/carlisle-flights-america-stobart-group)

[SWBKCB]

Story in the News and Star is a bit more conservative

News & Star | News | Passenger flights from Carlisle Airport edging closer, says Stobart Group (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/passenger-flights-from-carlisle-airport-edging-closer-says-stobart-group-1.1169959)

A few quotes from the Guardian story:

The weekly flight from Carlisle to Dublin will be operated by Stobart Air’s 48-seater ATR42-500 jet

Stobart's are 300's? (we'll ignore the jet bit...)

Tinkler said he expected about 20,000 people a year to fly between Carlisle and the US

20,000 pax a year is almost 400 a week...

[Dontgothere]

Well I did think that the maths didn't add up on the 20000 pax flying annually, you'd need a weekly A340-600 flight and that would make as much sense as putting a pub in a branch of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Also yes they are 300s as you point out, unless there's something that Stobart hasn't made public knowledge.

[LGS6753]

Let's see -

which coastal passenger airports have been a roaring success in recent years?

Manston
Plymouth
Blackpool

and which ones are on life support?

Durham Tees Valley
Prestwick
Newquay
Cardiff

The one conspicuous success is Southend, with an EZY base, 50 miles from London and in an affluent catchment area.

EZY to Carlisle? I think not.

[SWBKCB]

I've heard Carlisle called many things, but coastal? and who mentioned EZY?

[N707ZS]

When does the runway work start? Will the airport need to close to do it, heard they might need to dig down to the foundations not just a top coat of tarmac.

[cornishsimon]

The subsidy for NQY is reducing year on year with the ancillary business at the airfield increasing year on year.

Doesn't quite seem to indicate life support to me.



cs

[LGS6753]

SWBKCB -

OK the Firth of Solway isn't golden beaches, ice cream parlours and kiss-me-quick hats, but it is part of the coastline of Britain, and it's about 20 miles from Carlisle Airport.

But the problem with coastal areas is that they don't have a full 360 degrees of catchment area, and that's my point in using the word 'coastal'.

I mentioned EZY because of the common ownership of Carlisle and SEN. Anyone hoping that Stobart could pull in another EZY base is thinking wishfully - to say the least.

I stand by my post, but offer these clarifications to reinforce my comments.

Cornishsimon -

I sincerely hope NQY survives as a passenger airport, but in that capacity it needs much more business. If it can be made viable by other ancillary business effectively cross-subsidizing it, that's great in the short term but eventually it will need to show it is self-financing in all departments.

[tws123]

I think the article is supposed to say 2x daily SEN and 1x daily DUB not weekly. What use is a 2 weekly and 1 weekly service to business pax? And also how many hours would be spare on an aircraft that does 6 rotations a week... unless they have drastically cut back their original plans(?)

[west lakes]

Though the spin on all of this is great
Interviewed on Radio Cumbria last week Andrew Tinkler was expounding the benefits of the CAX - DUB flights as a gateway to the USA. He even commented that from NCL folk had to go via AMS!

Er, don't Aer Lingus Regional (Stobart Air) do a daily NCL - DUB flight

[Jamesair]

It was a strange comment, especially in view of the Aer Lingus advert on the NCL airport website which is headed NEW YORK from NEWCASTLE and the service to DUB is up to 3 x daily.

[nighthawk117]

OK the Firth of Solway isn't golden beaches, ice cream parlours and kiss-me-quick hats, but it is part of the coastline of Britain, and it's about 20 miles from Carlisle Airport.

But the problem with coastal areas is that they don't have a full 360 degrees of catchment area, and that's my point in using the word 'coastal'.

Newcastle is more coastal than Carlisle, and it does ok. The whole argument about coastal airports struggling is a load of rubbish, it's all about the size of the catchment area, not the degrees of catchment. Blackpool has a population of 140,000, 2 major airports on it's doorstep, and a contract with a low-cost airline that left them with next to no profit. That's why it struggled, not because it was built next to the coast!

[west lakes]

It was a strange comment,

Even more so now that United have just announced direct flights from NCL to Newark for next summer!
Direct flight 7.5hrs

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | From Carlisle airport to New York for just £200? (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/from-carlisle-airport-to-new-york-for-just-200-1.1172064)

[onyxcrowle]

So is there any information or website detailing the new Airport.
What the terminal will look like.
How many parking Stands.
How long is the runway? , Will it be extended to cope with an E170 or c series for Example.
Which would give it the range to do some charter stuff.
Or will they Be smart and make it long enough for Easyjet (future proofing not straight away ).
After all, Southend was a short Strip and look at it now.
With Blackpool gone. It might not be that crazy.
Manchester will be a nightmare to reach from anywhere north of the M60 now for three years while they do this new AT system on the Motorway. The M60 is a nightmare at the best of times.
I'd get given the option families want g to start a nice chilled out holiday would have the option of either Grubby Manchester with Crazy traffic or a trip into Scenic Cumbria along the higher sections of the M6 which while bust isn't as Phycotic as the M60. They'd arrive at a nice small friendly new Terminal.
Ideally with free parking.
And if the Airport worked eventually pursuade EZY to try a few Seasonal Mediterranean destinations.
And also cover the Belfast flights lost from
Blackpool.
Manx2 can move there and not need to look.for a new airport.
The question is when is it due to open? ??

[Charlie98]

Lest we remember Carlisle is right next to Newcastle airport and although I would like to see Carlisle do well, Newcastle will simply do what they did to MME, the logic doesn't really work with me, Air lingus regional flies a strong frequency to Newcastle which will be much more user friendly than carlisle, as well as cheaper due to competition.

It simply doesn't add up for me, and then saying EZY will be interested, no no no. The money is not to be made in the furthest North of England, they want new bases in affluent and populated areas, hence why the NCL base has been slowly degraded over time. Not to forget EasyJet don't serve small cities, they serve the big airports covering the catchment - Newcastle.

[Expressflight]

The last time I looked NCL was 1hr15min driving time from Carlisle and between 1hr45min and 2hr from the other population centres of Cumbria, which has a total population of 500,000. I'm not saying whether or not that is sufficient to support a route from CAX to DUB but NCL doesn't look to me quite the threat that is being suggested.

[west lakes]

How long is the runway? , Will it be extended to cope with an E170 or c series for Example.Runway distances are shown on NATS AIS,
Dimensions 1837m x 30m
25 TORA 1714m, TODA 1824m, ASDA 1714m, LDA 1469m
07 TORA 1649m, TODA 1777m, ASDA 1649m, LDA 1311m
but to extend east ward will require a road diversion and put the final approach lower over the village of Irthington which is 600m from the existing end of the runway.
The other way the main M6 - A69 cross country road is 400m from the end, as well as another minor road being in the way.
So no I doubt the runway will ever get extended

[Mickey Kaye]

Does it need to be any longer?

If anything make TODA 1799 meters.

[nighthawk117]

I've been having a read through the planning application, and it seems to have changed a fair bit from the last application.

They no longer intend to build a new runway offset from the existing one. Instead the existing runway will be raised and re-profiled. The runway will be built to PCN31 specification. 11 stands will be constructed, 4 capable of accepting aircraft up to 747 in size, with the remaining stands capable of handling aircraft up to 737 size. However, a condition of the planning permission prevents larger aircraft using the airfield on a regular basis, the 747 sized stands are to be constructed purely for potential storage, although the condition can be removed in future if desired.

Plans for a new terminal also appear to have been dropped, there is no mention of it in the planning permission, and it no longer features on the drawings.

Well done Mr Brown, thanks to your constant objections now it will just be an industrial estate! I can only assume the proposed passenger flights will use the existing terminal?

You can find the document here: Meetings and Events (http://cmis.carlisle.gov.uk/cmis/Meetings/tabid/73/ctl/ViewMeetingPublic/mid/410/Meeting/4038/Committee/833/Default.aspx)

Pages 17-20 list the proposals, with page 114 onwards showing the plans.

[vulcanised]

I do hope Mr Brown ended up considerably poorer as a result of his (singlehanded?) objections, although I suspect there will have been an element of legal aid involved.

[SWBKCB]

Nighthawk117 - thanks, interesting stuff. Hadn't realised that there were no plans for a new terminal. In fact, it looks like the only development of the existing airport/tower/hanger area is an extra 110 parking places by the 'terminal'. I think that really paints a picture of any planned passenger activities.

All the development takes place around the freight depot located south of the runway and north of the A689.

Will the re-constructed runway be capable of taking 747's - even if empty??

[Tagron]

I believe that technically they may not need planning permission for a new small terminal. Under the terms of the General Permitted Development Order they are entitled to erect certain operational buildings and structures without planning consent. These buildings can include a terminal of up to 500 sq m floor area, which might be enough if used in conjunction with existing buildings.

On the other hand you might still have expected to see it included in the overall plan submitted to Council.

[Expressflight]

I seem to remember that the plan a couple of years ago was to convert an existing hangar into a modest terminal facility.

[N707ZS]

When you look at the plans you can possibly see why Mr Brown has objected if that is his farm on the other side of the road to the new depot.

[nighthawk117]

I believe that technically they may not need planning permission for a new small terminal.

I'm not sure about that, i've seen references to planning permission applications for new hangars, so I'd have thought a new terminal would need permission too.

However, the previous plans submitted last time showed a new terminal located alongside the freight distribution warehouse - this is no longer shown on the new plans, and instead the land has been reallocated as car parking, with additional stands added. (previous plans had 4 stands, now 11).

So the terminal will now remain where it is, not sure if they plan to redevelop it or not though.

[nighthawk117]

Original Plan:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/gavco98uk/airfield.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/gavco98uk/terminal.jpg
3 stands, a hanger and a terminal located next to the freight centre.

New Plans:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/gavco98uk/CAX1.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/gavco98uk/CAX2.png
Larger distribution centre, more stands, but no terminal, and no free space to build one either!

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Work starts to redevelop Carlisle Airport (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/work-starts-to-redevelop-carlisle-airport-1.1177191)

[tws123]

After years of hard work, planning and legal cases, it is good to hear that work has finally begun. Well done to the Stobart Group and fingers crossed it can be made into a successful commercial airport.

[SWBKCB]

Interesting to see what they actually do - as noted at post 372 above, there appears to be no passenger terminal in the latest set of plans. The only mention of flights has been Pax Atr's to SEN and DUB, nothing about what the stands next to the Freight distribution centre will be used for.

[Buster the Bear]

Having ploughed millions into Southend, how can any development at Carlisle deliver a profit over the medium term?

[vulcanised]

They got those millions back by selling 51% of their core logistics business.

[SWBKCB]

It is mainly a road freight distribution centre development with good access to the M6 - as I've stated previously, what the aviation facilities will be used for isn't clear but have helped in the planning process.

[nighthawk117]

The only mention of flights has been Pax Atr's to SEN and DUB, nothing about what the stands next to the Freight distribution centre will be used for.


According to the planning application, they will be used for aircraft storage.

[SWBKCB]

aircraft storage? "warm" and "dry" don't spring to mind when thinking of Carlisle! :eek:

[SWBKCB]

Work on the freight depot started on 3 December

News & Star | Airport boss pledges to create new jobs (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/airport-boss-pledges-to-create-new-jobs-1.1179013)

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Business | Phased £20m revamp of Carlisle Airport (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/phased-20m-revamp-of-carlisle-airport-1.1194873)

Not sure whether this is news but a couple of interesting quotes

As for progress on updating the airport’s runway to make those passenger flights possible, Mr Tinkler said the issue was now in the hands of the Civil Aviation Authority. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Mr Tinkler pointed out that airlines other than Stobart Air would only express an interest once the runway upgrade has been carried out....and navaids and terminal...

[nighthawk117]

Is any airline other than Stobart even looking at starting flights from Carlisle? I can't imagine any would be.

[Porrohman]

Is any airline other than Stobart even looking at starting flights from Carlisle? I can't imagine any would be.

Nor I. Obvious potential destinations would be Dublin, London and Amsterdam but Carlisle hasn't had a particularly good track record with any scheduled flights. London and Dublin would be routes for Stobart. I can't imagine KL being interested in AMS with an F70 and I'd imagine that Stobart would prefer to feed DUB hub.

Thinking out of the box a bit, I wonder whether Aberdeen might be a potential route for Eastern Airways with a J41? I'm not sure how viable it might be so maybe someone with a better local knowledge might like to comment?

[GrahamK]

The only one I could maybe think of would be Citywing to the IOM. Other than that, I can't imagine anyone being interested in Carlisle

[SWBKCB]

Stobart have already announced they intend to operate Atr-42's to Dublin (daily) and Southend (twice daily) "this year".

Not seen any mention of any other interest.

[rob39]

GrahamK - With Citywing now returning to Blackpool and already operating a Newcastle route, I can't see Carlisle being an option any more. But you never know a limited weekend service opening up the western borders area and s/w Scotland, Lakes might work. Depends on what numbers they need to make a profit on a Let 410 (one operator offering £760 pbh) and potential passengers numbers wanting to go their. Doubtful but who knows.

[EK77WNCL]

Could be demand for once weekly summer to Palma/Alicante and maybe on the off chance Tenerife... With who... No idea but there could be demand. Maybe Stobart could invest in some 733's/A32x's and strike up an agreement with TOM?

[GrahamK]

EK777WNCL

Can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking?

[N707ZS]

Once a week flight ends up with the DTVA scenario, what do you do with your staff for the rest of the week. One or two flights a day might just scrape the barrel.

[SWBKCB]

and Carlisle doesn't have the facilities of DTVA

[davidjohnson6]

While the DTV situation comes to mind, Carlisle has the benefit of being much further from a competing airport than DTV is from Newcastle. For locals to reach NCL, MAN or GLA there is a nontrivial cost in both time and money (eg train fare, taxi or long term car park). This could allow the likes of Thomson to charge a bit more than at MAN, effectively selling convenience and overall money saving at a higher airfare. Of course it would likely be a 1x wekly flight on Tues or Wed - can what is a rural area with low population density fill bums on seats ?

PMI / ALC at Carlisle is certainly an innovative idea showing imaginative bluesky thinking and should perhaps be encouraged, even if it's still a good few years from coming into reality.

[GrahamK]

David,

Sorry, but there really is not the population around here to justify a service to Spain. NCL, on a good day is just under an hour to drive. Carlisle itself has an population of around 80,000. If we extend that to folk living in a boundary extending to Dumfries, Kendal and Hexham, that increases to about 150,000.

As you say, it's not exactly the richest of places either.
I'd be surprised if a link to SEN works, no public transport to the airport, a train that gets you into central London in just over 3 hours, and who wants to go to SEN anyway? :E

[SWBKCB]

Carlisle isn't much further from NCL than DTVA (55 as opposed to 45 miles). It would need a considerable upgrade in the airport infrastructure which isn't currently planned (apart from the runway) - could the current terminal/apron handle a 733/32x? As far as I'm aware the largest airliner to use the terminal has been an Atr-72

https://www.flickr.com/photos/swbkcb/14989394313/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/swbkcb/15606870731/

[GrahamK]

IIRC, about 20 years ago, CAX got a few diversions from NCL, a couple of BA Dash 8s and a couple of Gill ATRs.

Other than that, the biggest airliner to use the airport was a Pan Am 727 brining relatives to Lockerbie.

[stab3.5up]

I would say the weekend break to Cumbria might be the ticket. I would guess the market is more inbound than outbound traffic.

[N707ZS]

Then you are competing with the train.

[NewquayJacob]

Are they building a new terminal or just using the current one?

[highwideandugly]

A lot of wishful thinking on here.Get real everyone.it just won't happen,it is and has always been a con on the Cumbrian folk for Stobarts to get their distribution centre up and running.

Look at all the failed airports and indeed struggling ones.Carlisle as mentioned many times just doesn't have the catchment area or airport infrastructure to succeed.
Lakes traffic..so you arrive at the airport with boots and walking sticks( and dogs?)..what do you do then? Hire car,bus,train or walk!!:ugh:

[SWBKCB]

The current planning permission doesn't mention the current terminal, hangar and apron area at all - it's purely for the area in the south east of airfield where the freight distribution centre is being built - although it includes new aprons large enough to store a number of 747...

I'm inclined to agree with highwideandugly but can't understand why Stobarts have spent quite so much money.

[nighthawk117]

Thinking out of the box a bit, I wonder whether Aberdeen might be a potential route for Eastern Airways with a J41? I'm not sure how viable it might be so maybe someone with a better local knowledge might like to comment?
I don't think there's an awful lot of demand for flights to Aberdeen. It might have got one passenger about 4 years ago when I was working up there, but nowadays I can't see there being much demand.

Given the runway length and lack of demand, the only possibilities are going to be airlines operating turboprops - FlyBE, Eastern and CityWing. But with such great connections to the rail network, there's just no demand for domestic flights, and I don't think the current terminal has customs/immigration facilities, so international is a non-starter.

CityWing may be a possibility - flying into Carlisle would open up easy connections to the rail network, but then there already direct flights from IOM to most of the population centres of the UK, so there's not going to be much demand here either.

Beyond a Stobart bankrolled route to London/Dublin, I just can't see anything else that might work.


Are they building a new terminal or just using the current one?

The original plans called for a new terminal and re-aligned runway, the latter of which had to be delivered before work on the freight depot could begin. But thanks to the local farmer complaining that all we would get would be a freight depot, now all we will be getting is a freight depot. Kind of ironic really!

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Business | Stobart: Carlisle Airport redevelopment finished by September (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/stobart-carlisle-airport-redevelopment-finished-by-september-1.1196782)

[N707ZS]

Any idea what this has to do with the airport?

It will supply 5.2m tonnes of biomass fuel to Brite Partnership in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, over 20 years starting in 2017.

Is it the grass cuttings or the contents from a large septic tank!

[west lakes]

Any idea what this has to do with the airport?

Nothing but as it's in the business section it is news about Stobarts.

Just as the final section is a comment about a totally unrelated shipping company in Barrow-in-Furness

[j636]

Stobart will seek funding for DUB and BHD services, set up to fail before they may even start!

[SWBKCB]

SEN also, but if you can get Govt support, why not?

[j636]

Fair point but when the tap runs out of money?

If you are investing in a passenger terminal etc then you really should ensure viable operations can work to justify an investment.

[SWBKCB]

Who said anything about investing in a terminal? Don't think there are any plans at present.

[NickBarnes]

As part of meeting the funding criteria it has to be shown that the route is commercially viable after 3 years when the money runs out.

[nighthawk117]

As part of meeting the funding criteria it has to be shown that the route is commercially viable after 3 years when the money runs out.

As part of the planning permission, Stobart submitted a report conducted by an independent analyst on the viability of the London and Dublin routes:

6.172
APD’s ‘Likely’ forecast indicates that for a Southend route, beyond Year 9,
the load factor would be in excess of 58% and the ‘LIKELY’ Load Factor on
Dublin/Irish Sea Routes would be in excess of 58%, beyond Year 4.(para.
2.9).

6.173
APD expect a daily service to Dublin (6 days per week) would generate
about 14,300 passengers in Year 2, significantly less than Aer Arran’s
break-even point of 58% seat utilisation for a single daily rotation, but ‘break
even’ would be achieved in Year 3 with 17,366 passengers. However,
after the initial establishment of the route, by Year 4, the airline could
consider the introduction of a double daily rotation to Dublin or a second
daily rotation to an alternative destination on the Island (e.g. Belfast), in
which case a ‘break even Load Factor’ of 58% on a double daily rotation
may be achievable by Year 7, with over 33,000 passengers.(para. 2.14).

So 9 years to reach break even on Southend, 3/4 on Dublin. So the Dublin route may qualify, but is it sustainable without having Southend too?

No study has ever been carried out for Belfast.

[EK77WNCL]

I don't think 9 years would ever be considered a feasible amount of time to wait for profitability or break even, is there demand for Belfast? Do many Cumbrians drive to Newcastle to fly there? Or get the ferry? I have no idea...

Southend makes sense because... Well it's "London" and Dublin makes sense for the onward connections mainly, but Belfast? I really don't know. I'd have thought Belfast could work to BHD with Citywing

[Expressflight]

I don't think I would have a lot of faith in a feasibility study which seriously suggested it could look 9 years ahead in this industry.

[SWBKCB]

It was a feasibility study designed to convince a council...

[nighthawk117]

Southend makes sense because... Well it's "London" and Dublin makes sense for the onward connections mainly, but Belfast? I really don't know. I'd have thought Belfast could work to BHD with Citywing

I'm not sure Southend does make sense - not with a direct rail link to central London. I can't see anyone other than Stobart operating from Carlisle.

[kcockayne]

SWBKCB

That says it all !

[west lakes]

Lots of work ongoing to the east of the 01 threshold and up to the A689.
Framework of the new buildings also visible

[highwideandugly]

An earlier post stated Stobart confirming all Airport redevelopment work will be complete by September ..so 4 months to go.
Passed there a couple of days ago and the only work I could see was on the road infrastructure for the new massive distribution centre and of course the monstrosity of the centre itself.
Any one know how the actual airport And route developments are going?:confused:

[SWBKCB]

September is phase 1 - the big sheds for trucks. Don't think there is anything related. Don't think there are dates for phase 2 which I think includes the runway work and new aprons.

[EK77WNCL]

When do Ryanair start? :):):):):):):):):):):):););):ok:

Joking aside... I can see them actually making a good shot at it to be fair to them.... And if the price was right people might actually travel from MAN/GLA/NCL to use CAX instead. You can do a lot with 1 frame when you have as high utilization as Ryanair.

[SWBKCB]

Not the infrastructure at CAX to support 737 ops.

[west lakes]

As a FR base pilot once told me when I asked "We could not take off from there with more than a 50% load, so it would be an absolute no go."

I doubt that Easyjet would be much different

[EK77WNCL]

I think the intention would be that it will eventually have infrastructure to support stuff probably up to the size of a 737 when they repave/lengthen(?) the runway and build a terminal.

Not sure about the accuracy of the 50% load information... The runway is 6000ft long which isn't much shorter than Newcastle or Leeds not to mention Bristol and they manage fine to the canaries and cyprus from there. I'm not aware of other operationa constraints in flying from Carlisle.

Easyjet would do fine, the A319 would have very few problems

[davidjohnson6]

I hesitate to be a party pooper, but is a jet aircraft with 150+ seats at an airport in an area with low population, a good train service and major roads a realistic proposition ? Nearby urban centres like Liverpool-Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland's central belt are hardly lacking affordable air transport.
Perhaps a prop with 50-80 seats (think ATR or Dash8) might be a better starting point commercially...

[SWBKCB]

As far as I am aware there are no plans to develop the airport for jet operations - no new terminal or lengthened runway, or the rest of the infrastructure required. Stobart Atr's are the plan.

[EK77WNCL]

I hope Stobart works but I don't really hold out much hope for Carlisle really. I was being an uber-optimist suggesting Ryanair could ever make a good shot of it (and keep MOL happy).

I don't expect whatever service CAX gets to last more than 18 months, hence I'll be wanting to try them out ASAP when they start up. ATR42 combi maybe:ok:

[nighthawk117]

When permission was granted for development of the airport, it was done so under the following condition:


Passenger and cargo fixed wing aircraft to be limited to the following types of aircraft, Jetsream 41, DHC-8Q400, ATR-42, ATR-72 and RJ146 or aircraft of equivalent characteristics in terms of size, weight, carrying capacity, noise and other polluting emissions.


While this may be changed at a later date, it rules out Ryanair ops initially.

EDIT: This was a condition of the 2013 planning approval, which was later overturned. I'm not sure if this clause was included in the final approval.

[west lakes]

The runway is 6000ft long

Actual runway lengths according to NATS AIS are which are the ones I quoted.


07. TORA 5544, TODA 5902, ASDA 5544, LDA 4320
25. TORA 5518, TODA 5902, ASDA 5518, LDA 4740

Now I don't know about you but if I ask a question of a senior pilot who is also a trainer I tend to believe his answer!
The runway was intended to be extended and realigned, but that is not going to happen so I doubt the above measurements will change, owing to the roads that are close to each end.

[TartinTon]

The only people using CAX will be Stobart Air and in all probability, the only routes operated would be SEN and an outside possibility of DUB. Beyond that, I cannot see what potential air routes there might be as there is no local catchment apart from sheep!

[nighthawk117]

The only people using CAX will be Stobart Air and in all probability, the only routes operated would be SEN and an outside possibility of DUB. Beyond that, I cannot see what potential air routes there might be as there is no local catchment apart from sheep!

I would say Dublin is more likely to work than SEN. I just can't see the business case for London, not with an hourly train service taking just 3.5 hrs to reach the city centre. Heathrow with the added connections may work, but that's never going to happen.

[SWBKCB]

Stobart's have consistently said Atr-42 twice daily to SEN and daily to DUB

[SWBKCB]

News & Star | News | Business | Summer hope for Carlisle Airport passenger flights (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/summer-hope-for-carlisle-airport-passenger-flights-1.1229404)

Ministers announced in August that routes from Carlisle to London Southend, Dublin and Belfast are among 15 shortlisted to get funding from a £56m pot to support new services from smaller regional airports. To secure the money, Stobart Air will have to convince the Department for Transport that the routes will be viable once the three-year subsidy ends.

Mr Tinkler said: “We believe it is do-able and makes commercial sense. But we have to make it sustainable and it takes time to build passenger numbers on a new route. That [government] support in the first two or three years is vital.”

He revealed that Stobart is in discussions with the Civil Aviation Authority about works to upgrade the runway and the installation of an instrument landing system.

The company expects to spend between £3m and £4m on the project – more if it opts to move the passenger terminal into a corner of the new freight distribution centre at Carlisle Airport. This would allow direct access to the terminal from the A689.

Mr Tinkler said: “Once we get the go ahead, the works could be completed in two to three months. Summer 2016 isn’t out of the question for starting flights."

[highwideandugly]

reported that Stobarts looking to sell their aviation arm....wow what a surprise??
Never mind they have what they set out to achieve..and what most of us suspected and warned of.

So what now for passenger flights and even an aviation future?

[nighthawk117]

Didnt Stobart sell off the trucking division 2 years ago? They've been under separate ownership ever since, so i'm not sure what this changes, if it is true?

[SWBKCB]

Not had chance to check this, but my understanding is that the road haulage is now a separate company from the rail and aviation business (which has the airline and airports), so if the Irish Times is right and aviation business is to sell off the airline but the airports are retained, the question will be if the "independent" airline will have any reason to operate between the two Stobart owned airports?


News & Star | News | Stobart Group could sell stake in air division - report (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/stobart-group-could-sell-stake-in-air-division-report-1.1232169)

[Pain in the R's]

This proposed route was all about befitting all three parts of the Stobart air empire. I can't see any reason why the sold airline would want to operate the route but then Stobart would know this when they put it up for sale.

[highwideandugly]

Closely linked with the Southend thread,my sources tell me that the airport will be closed(runway) for two months to facilitate infrastructure improvements..runway levelling and drainage.Not sure about any terminal improvements?
So maybe it's a goer!!

[LTNman]

Its been reported that they are trying to sell Stobart Air so if it happens it would be down to the new owners.

[nighthawk117]

Any idea when this work is to take place highwideandugly?

[mrmum]

http://http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/Stobart-completes-17m-Carlisle-Airport-deal-984a7146-6fb2-45c5-a6da-3127be4c933e-ds (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/Stobart-completes-17m-Carlisle-Airport-deal-984a7146-6fb2-45c5-a6da-3127be4c933e-ds)

[highwideandugly]

Not sure when it will close.However the runway needs a lot of attention(expensive)pre the start of schedule flights.The terminal is in no fit state either,so it's going to cost a lot of money to get it up to scratch.
I suppose the sooner it's started..the sooner the airport will become operational?
One fly in the ointment is Stobarts "proposed" sale of the airline which was mentioned.Will a new airline have the will or requirements to operate proposed very marginal services?

[N707ZS]

What's the plan for the flying club and private owners if/when the runway is closed for a period of time? Could they use the short runway?

[daz211]

Scheduled passenger flights from Carlisle Airport will be operating by this time next year, Stobart Group chief Andrew Tinkler has pledged.

Chancellor George Osborne announced in his Autumn Statement that proposed routes from Carlisle to London Southend, Dublin and Belfast would receive a start-up subsidy from the Government’s Regional Air Connectivity Fund.

Mr Tinkler revealed that Stobart would also receive grant funding towards runway improvements, which must be completed before scheduled passenger services can start.

He said: “Our aim is to carry out those works and get it up to Civil Aviation Authority standards this summer, and have the airport ready for scheduled flights by October.

“We might start them then but it may be better to wait until the spring, given that it takes time to sell airline seats. We will see how it goes.”

He was speaking after Stobart Group, which owns the airport, posted healthy pre-tax profits of £10 million for the year to April.

The company completed a freight distribution centre at Carlisle Airport last summer and then agreed a sale and lease back deal on the property for £16.9m. The bulk of the 315,000sq ft freight distribution centre is sub-let to haulier Eddie Stobart.

Stobart Group’s plan for scheduled flights would see twice daily services to Southend, which is less than an hour from central London by train, and one flight per day to both Belfast and Dublin, the latter with onward connections to the US.

The flights would be operated by Stobart Air, in which Stobart Group holds a 45 per cent stake. Mr Tinkler added that the proposals for flights from Carlisle would not be affected by recent management changes at Stobart Air.

He had to take over as chairman of the airline last month following the sudden departure of former Ryanair executive Tim Jeans after only six months in the role.

Then last week it emerged that chief executive Sean Brogan was quitting after his plan to lead a management buy out was rejected.

Stobart Air, which operates Aer Lingus Regional services under a franchise agreement, carried 1.4m passengers in 2015-16.

[fjencl]

All sounds like good news.

[davidjohnson6]

Sounds good but it's easy to make encouraging noises. Believe it when I see it...

[nighthawk117]

He said that this time last year...

[Pain in the R's]

Sounds like bad news to me. Let Stobart run their service if they feel there is money to be made but the money to be made seems to be from the UK taxpayer.

The only reason the service to Southend will be made is that they have fingers in all three pies.

[jensdad]

I would love to see this work but if Teesside, with its much more populous catchment area, can't sustain services to any of those three destinations I'd be amazed if Carlisle can. The best chance is Southend, because of the longer rail journey time from Carlisle to London compared to that from Teesside. Belfast and Dublin though? Can't see it I'm afraid.

[ELondonPax]

There are multiple trains per hour from Carlisle to Euston. The faster services do it in less than three and a half hours. These are massive people movers, routinely 9 or 11 carriages. I don't know what niche would be served by a prop service to Southend.

[rowly6339]

Maybe they will use it when on company business at the airport to save sending people from HQ in Carlisle in hire cars.

[davidjohnson6]

There is a classic illness of people who run airlines, namely thinking that running an airline with lots of planes to lots of places is a proof of one's masculinity. Stobart shareholders will prefer management do not succumb to this disease.

Disclaimer - Secretly I really hope this route comes to fruition so I can fly from Carlisle once in my life; once I've bagged that flight my conflict of interest will end and I'll be able to give just my professional opinion that the route is commercially bonkers.

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps they'll use it to ship south all the money they've made from the logistics centre - remind me, how did they swing the planning permission on that?

[davidjohnson6]

Now that it seems Cityjet and Stobart Air (i.e. the airline, not the airport) will likely merge, does Carlisle have any chance of seeing scheduled commercial passenger flights ?

[SWBKCB]

Any chance went when permission for the distribution centre was agreed.

[bad bear]

He said: “Our aim is to carry out those works and get it up to Civil Aviation Authority standards this summer, and have the airport ready for scheduled flights by October.

“We might start them then but it may be better to wait until the spring, given that it takes time to sell airline seats. We will see how it goes.”

He was speaking after Stobart Group, which owns the airport, posted healthy pre-tax profits of £10 million for the year to April.



Any news on whether the runway work has started?


bb

[NorthSouth]

Nothing NOTAMed

[Rishy]

I was flying out of Carlisle over the weekend and no sign of any work on the runways.

[highwideandugly]

Hi all

Any local supporters care to update on developments,plans,hopes etc?

Been really quiet on here since Stobbarts "had their wishes granted" !!

[SWBKCB]

The new warehouses are looking very nice!

[GrahamK]

Nowt in local rags or news

[rowly6339]

Their main focus is SEN at the moment so it will be a while before they get around to dealing with Carlisle.

[SWBKCB]

So how long have they got to implement the govt funding to SEN, DUB, BFS?

[SWBKCB]

Regular passenger flights from Carlisle planned for next summer (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/business/Regular-passenger-flights-from-Carlisle-planned-for-next-summer-e1d3080d-8a27-4619-a8a9-a48d9331efb5-ds)

[Andy_S]

Mr Tinkler pointed out that the group also owns London Southend Airport and flies almost two million people to Dublin from their under franchise agreements with Aer Lingus and Flybe.

I think Mr Tinkler has either been misquoted or has been smoking his own socks......

[davidjohnson6]

I'll believe it when I see tickets go on sale...

[cumbrianboy]

They do fly 1.5 - 2 million to Dublin, not from SEN but that is about right as a figure for the DUB network

[rowly6339]

Carlisle Airport plans passenger flights after £5m boost - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-40421380)

[davidjohnson6]

rowly - please don't take my post personally - I know you're just posting an article from the Beeb. A journalist from the Beeb should be capable of doing a bit of background research before effectively recycling a press release

Stobart are opening routes from Southend to both Manchester and Glasgow at the end of October 2017.

I have 3 questions about this plan for a London-Carlisle passenger route.
1 - At which London airport will it land ?
2 - Which airline will be doing the flying ?
3 - Which company or organisation will take commercial responsibility for any possible losses ?

The spotter in me would really like to see a regular London-Carlisle route start up, but the realist side of me is unable to find viable commercial solutions. Of course, others on here are probably far more familiar with Stobart and Carlisle so I happily defer to their wisdom
However, until there's a clear and credible commercially-viable answer to each of these questions, I'm pretty dubious about the whole scheme

[TartinTon]

dj...you know the answers to your own questions:

SEN
Stobart
Stobart

No-one else will touch it with a bargepole

[rowly6339]

dj


No offence taken, I thought that with the money now being released that we may see some action on the ground so to speak.


I have always thought that any airline willing to try from CAX would have to be brave and have deep pockets, but what do I know.

[AirportPlanner1]

DUB would probably do just fine IMO, though I'm more sceptical about Belfast. Citywing (RIP) via IOM would probably have been a better fit. London is a waste of time, though with the route fund subsidy Stobart will still be laughing if it's fresh air they're flying around.

Is it worth the investment for 40-odd pax per day on the one sustainable route? Definitely not.

[cumbrianboy]

I'm curious why everyone thinks london is such a bad idea?

[GrahamK]

I'm curious why everyone thinks london is such a bad idea?

It'll still be quicker using the train

[AirportPlanner1]

It will pick up a few price sensitive business travellers on the assumption the flight is cheaper than the train at short notice. A few people will use it to access the Lake District. And that's about it, I can't see there are many people needing to travel between Essex and Carlisle or vv this will benefit.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I can't see there are many people needing to travel between Essex and Carlisle or vv this will benefit.

How about some Shotgun Weddings in Gretna Green? :)

[LTNman]

£4.75 million of tax payers money:confused::eek:. Shame Stobart wasn't prepared to spend its own money.

[Andy_S]

£4.75 million of tax payers money:confused::eek:.

And apparently we live in an age of austerity......

[ATNotts]

And apparently we live in an age of austerity......

The money arboretum has produced a bumper crop of new tenners since the 9th June. Must have been the heatwave:)

[virginblue]

So, looking at the aerial picture of the airport in the aboove article, where are they planning to handle the passengers? In tents...?

[NorthSouth]

So, looking at the aerial picture of the airport in the aboove article, where are they planning to handle the passengers? In tents...?In the terminal that is being built with the £4.75m headlined in same article I imagine :hmm:

[Harry Wayfarers]

So, looking at the aerial picture of the airport in the aboove article, where are they planning to handle the passengers? In tents...?

Stranger things have happened, MAN took the lead up north handling the passengers in tents whilst LPL got left behind fannying around building an art deco terminal building.

[compton3bravo]

Flash! Somebody has just seen a number of pigs fly over Car!Isle Airport!

[highwideandugly]

Tents?? I've a two man'er they can have..mind it's a bu..er to put up!

[Alteagod]

TBH I could see inbound traffic for weekend breaks and holidays etc etc but as for a need for flights generated by locals I would say you mite just make money with a j41 kinda size but doubt you could fill anything much bigger

[LTNman]

More sheep than people come to mind.

[SWBKCB]

Well this is all very amusing (especially the southerner crack about government funding of infrastructure projects) but I'm going to spoil it with some facts

4.75 million of tax payers money. Shame Stobart wasn't prepared to spend its own money.

They are - £13m - whatever you think of Stobarts plans, their prepared to back up their opinions with big money

Mr Tinkler said: “We’ve set this up as a catalyst, using our own airline. Once we make this sustainable we believe other operators will be interested. Stobart Group are investing a total of £13m in this project. The £4.75m will help support and sustain it. It’s private business and the Government working together to create jobs, and it will help the local economy. It opens us up to the rest of the world.”


Passenger flights starting from Carlisle Airport next summer - minister | News & Star (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Passenger-flights-starting-from-Carlisle-Airport-next-summer-minister-9cc52b85-f93e-4d76-88b1-567a3f9adcaf-ds)

[01475]

I imagine KLM will serve it, probably with some success.

Other than that; this seems like a strange time to open an airport in an area like that. Will it end up twinned with DTV?

[jensdad]

It isn't really a new airport , 01475, more a long-dormant one. There were flights back in the day to the Channel Islands and Isle of Man as well as services to London (Heathrow I think!) on a Euroair 748 in the 1980s. (that's a BAe748 , not a Boeing 747-800 :) )

[canberra97]

Didn't Thomson Holidays at one point in the early 1980s for one season only use a Britannia Airways Boeing 732 to Palma from Carlisle?

[Harry Wayfarers]

It isn't really a new airport , 01475, more a long-dormant one. There were flights back in the day to the Channel Islands and Isle of Man as well as services to London (Heathrow I think!) on a Euroair 748 in the 1980s. (that's a BAe748 , not a Boeing 747-800 :) )

Euroair operated LHR/CAX/DND, split load on a budgie so there was probably a CAX/DND route as well but as I recall that operation didn't last too long.

[GrahamK]

Canberra97, cant recall a BY 732 at CAX, but there was a Pan Am 727 that landed after the Lockerbie bombing bringing in officials/relatives. Also recall Gill ATRs and Brymon Dash 8s using CAX as a diversion airfield

[jon01]

In 1985, Air Ecosse operated up to two LHR and two DND flights a day with a Shorts 360. This was a Dundee to Heathrow route that called in at Carlisle north and southbound. The following year, this was operated by a Euroair HS.748

In the same year British Air Ferries operated a Viscount charter to Jersey from May to October on Sundays, this also operated in 1986

In 1988 the only service was to the IoM, up to twice daily on an Air Furness Islander

[EK77WNCL]

I'd hope that Stobart to DUB/SEN, KLM to AMS could breathe life into CAX

Aside from that and maybe the odd summer seasonal charters, I can't imagine what else there really is

[Harry Wayfarers]

I'd hope that Stobart to DUB/SEN, KLM to AMS could breathe life into CAX

Aside from that and maybe the odd summer seasonal charters, I can't imagine what else there really is

Have KLM even suggested that they wish to serve Carlisle?

[davidjohnson6]

KLM seem to fly to almost every other UK airport. If KLM wanted to continue at Manston even when the airport was being closed down...

[kcockayne]

In 1985, Air Ecosse operated up to two LHR and two DND flights a day with a Shorts 360. This was a Dundee to Heathrow route that called in at Carlisle north and southbound. The following year, this was operated by a Euroair HS.748

In the same year British Air Ferries operated a Viscount charter to Jersey from May to October on Sundays, this also operated in 1986

In 1988 the only service was to the IoM, up to twice daily on an Air Furness Islander

Dan Air operated Carlisle to Jersey on a scheduled service basis in the late '70s early '80s, using a Viscount.

[Harry Wayfarers]

KLM seem to fly to almost every other UK airport. If KLM wanted to continue at Manston even when the airport was being closed down...

So KLM operate to Exeter, Newquay, Angelsey, Belfast City, East Midlands, Derry, Liverpool, Inverness, Southend, Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, Prestwick, Sumburgh and god knows where else?

In a previous life I worked for the forerunner of KLM UK, I do understand where they're coming from, their nearest served opposition to Manston was LHR, a long way and the M25 away, from CAX they have NCL, GLA and MAN to distract their passengers away from which some may say represents a conflict of interests!

[canberra97]

Harry

Are you just making it up as to what airports KLM serve within the United Kingdom?

For your information and you should know better, KLM fly from Amsterdam to the following UK airports.

Aberdeen
Belfast City
Birmingham
Bristol
Cardiff
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Humberside
Inverness
Leeds
London Heathrow
Manchester
Newcastle
Norwich
Southampton
Teeside

Some of the airports you have mentioned have never even had KLM service or is it you being your usual self!

[canberra97]

So KLM operate to Exeter, Newquay, Angelsey, Belfast City, East Midlands, Derry, Liverpool, Inverness, Southend, Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, Prestwick, Sumburgh and god knows where else?

In a previous life I worked for the forerunner of KLM UK, I do understand where they're coming from, their nearest served opposition to Manston was LHR, a long way and the M25 away, from CAX they have NCL, GLA and MAN to distract their passengers away from which some may say represents a conflict of interests!

(Quote)There nearest served opposition to Manston was LHR a long way and the M25 away!

Nearest served opposition to Manston would not have been LHR but LGW which being a lot closer, Amsterdam being flown by both British Airways and EasyJet.

You need to get a grip with geography or at least use AA route planner.

[Harry Wayfarers]

(Quote)There nearest served opposition to Manston was LHR a long way and the M25 away!

Nearest served opposition to Manston would not have been LHR but LGW which being a lot closer, Amsterdam being flown by both British Airways and EasyJet.

You need to get a grip with geography or at least use AA route planner.

A spelling mistake "there" instead of 'their", the post was regarding a conflict of interest between KLM served airports of which Gatwick is not!

Why do you need to turn everything in to a nitpicking peeing contest?

[mikeygd]

So, looking at the aerial picture of the airport in the aboove article, where are they planning to handle the passengers? In tents...?

The original building is still there (calling it a terminal sounds wrong) but it can easily handle a plane load of passengers. I expect just a bit of paint and few new chairs are needed.

Edit reason: Didn't. A Plane is a Plain is an Aeroplane :-)

[canberra97]

A spelling mistake "there" instead of 'their", the post was regarding a conflict of interest between KLM served airports of which Gatwick is not!

Why do you need to turn everything in to a nitpicking peeing contest?

Because of how you respond to other people's posts and your continuous negative comments.