Filing Flight Plan and Clearance

[Longbow55]

Geetting ready to take a flight over to mainland europe in a couple weeks, now I went and spent some time on the CFMU site and have a route picked out and I will file IFR (yes I have a full IR rating and I fly a single engine plane), I guess I will file with Heathrow again. But here is my main question, the airport I fly from has a tower but they will not issue an IFR clearance. and the airway entry is like 20NM from the airport, so I will get to it before I even get to altitude and way before that 10 minutes stated.

So with all my calling and looking and reading Ihave done, there is no provision in the UK for me to call ??? and get my clearance before leaving the ground in another words getting my clearance with a clearance void time? I will have to call London radio after takeoff and get the clearance somehow before reaching the intersection? tell me this isn't true. Thanks in advance

[mm_flynn]

Unfortunately it is true:{ There is no system like in the States to collect your clearance on the ground or by telephone with a clearance void time).
Depending where you are flying from, you may be able to get a LARS or other radar unit to negotiate the clearance with the airways control unit. They will typically give you a squawk and RIS/RAS while they coordinate with the airways guys. They will then hand you over to the appropriate frequency for the actual clearance.


If there is no local friendly unit then it is a call to London Information to activate your flight plan and do the coordination.

On the routes that I fly, there is a long distance I can run underneath the aiway and outside controlled airspace while the clearance is coordinated.

[IO540]

Any towered (ATC) airfield should be able to make the phone call to London Control and get an IFR departure for you before you get airborne. They won't get you an IFR clearance as such but they will get you a squawk and a contact frequency, so when you get airborne and call up London Control with your tail number they will know all about you and give you vectors/levels etc right away.

Otherwise, as mm_flynn says, it's a case of calling up London Info and asking them to do it.

I have never heard of an officially authorised way for you to contact London Control directly before getting airborne.

[Chilli Monster]

But here is my main question, the airport I fly from has a tower but they will not issue an IFR clearance. and the airway entry is like 20NM from the airport, so I will get to it before I even get to altitude and way before that 10 minutes stated.

Then your tower is WRONG and are not carrying out their responsibilities as required by an ATC unit within UK airspace. It is the responsibility of ATC to obtain some form of clearance (even if it is "Remain outside CAS, squawk ####, Contact London control on ###.###"), and not to leave you 'hanging' like they are trying to do. I suggest a call to the ATC supervisor / SATCO at the tower concerned to point this out to them. The reference they need to read is:

UK AIP, ENR 1.1.1, paragraph 4.1.4

Also - why are you filing with Heathrow? ATC / Ops at your airfield (if it's the one mentioned in your location) should be taking it and transmitting it for you?

[Longbow55]

Chilli Monstor,
I wish it was the one in my profile, I would actually getmy whole clearance through them, but unfortunatly it is not, and when asked at my airfield, I get we can file it for you, but can't give you a clearance. they just don't do that that there. I even asked all the club members and got the same answer. Guess I will stay below MOCA and get my clearance that way. Thanks again for all the help.

I should add this, I initailly start on an airway P155 if I remember right, but will only be on it, for about 5 or 10 minutes, then direct to CLN and then I stay onan airway to our destination. I will just call up London, and maybe ask our ATC again and see what happens

[drauk]

Longbow55, it might be worth pointing out to your oh-so-helpful tower that even if they can't get you the actual "join the airway" clearance they should be able to get you a squawk and a frequency to contact after take off. The nice thing about this, other than potentially avoiding having to join a queue to speak to London Information, is that you find out if your flight plan is "in the system" before you leave the ground, rather than at a thousand feet in IMC outside CAS, when you've probably got better things to think about.

In other words, as Chilli sort of says, there is a distinction to be made between the full airways joining clearance and an initial clearance of the type that Chilli points out.

[Longbow55]

I will ask them again, and hopefully they can atleast do that. if anything I will go there when I get back into town and. now in the same breath they did say it was limited and no they couldn't do that, but if I can atleast ge my squawk, and freq, that would be great. I can file the night before from home.Guess it never hurts to ask more than once, heck our kids do.:}

[nouseforaname]

Longbow I have sent you a PM

[IO540]

The other thing is that if you file a flight plan via www.homebriefing.com :O , it will go into the system within seconds and will be with London Control in less time than it takes to do a warm start on an IO540 :O

It's only when people file flight plans by phone, or better still via some local terminal or fax facility, that they can be lost.

[DFC]

Guess I will stay below MOCA and get my clearance that way

I really hope that is a misprint!

Regards,

DFC

[Longbow55]

DFC, No it is not. the min for the air way I am going to join isif I remember right is 9,000, and I jump off right at the 10,000 point. the class A doesn't start till futher up. if the clearance goes like it did last time when I did my cross country time, I will be at my turn point before they give me the clearance.

[Longbow55]

The other thing is that if you file a flight plan via www.homebriefing.com (http://www.homebriefing.com) :O , it will go into the system within seconds and will be with London Control in less time than it takes to do a warm start on an IO540 :O

It's only when people file flight plans by phone, or better still via some local terminal or fax facility, that they can be lost.

IO540, do you use this system? how does it work? and I assume by your post a flight plan is were it needs to be at the time it needs to be?

[IO540]

Yes, Homebriefing is an excellent service. One of the well kept secrets in this business.

A little less suitable for flight plans for UK-style IFR (OCAS) because they stuff all IFR flight plans into CFMU and low-level routes in the UK around Class G etc usually violate airway MEAs etc etc so UK ATC nods and winks and addresses them manually as if they were VFR.

But then few people file flight plans for that sort of flying anyway (no legal need to).

When you say MOCA I think you mean airway MEA :O This is normal - you have to remain OCAS after departure, until London Control take you over. MOCA is obstacle clearance; an FAA-only term!

[Longbow55]

Yes, Homebriefing is an excellent service. One of the well kept secrets in this business.

A little less suitable for flight plans for UK-style IFR (OCAS) because they stuff all IFR flight plans into CFMU and low-level routes in the UK around Class G etc usually violate airway MEAs etc etc so UK ATC nods and winks and addresses them manually as if they were VFR.

But then few people file flight plans for that sort of flying anyway (no legal need to).

When you say MOCA I think you mean airway MEA :O This is normal - you have to remain OCAS after departure, until London Control take you over. MOCA is obstacle clearance; an FAA-only term!

Thanks IO540, Sorry for confusing, yes MEA. That is also one of my concerns, and I hope the "N" number on the plane clues London in this time. as I do not want them to think I am an IMC rated pilot trying to get into CAS. Maybe I will include this in the remarks as a full IR rated pilot so I don't get disregared like I did last time.

[IO540]

Longbow55

I sent you a PM.

There are various tips on how to get into the airways system unambiguously.

One is to file an ICAO flight plan (you have to anyway, for Class A) with a realistic level, e.g. something like FL100-150 on it. If you put 2400ft on it, UK ATC will probably think "this is an IMC Rated pilot trying to be ultra diligent" and they will just address it as per VFR.

Another is to TELL the tower to phone up London Control and get an airways clearance for you.

But it does sometimes happen that ATC keeps you down low for a long distance. I don't have experience of this personally since I have not flown airways on what I regard as trivial flights within the UK which can be conducted on the usual informal VFR-come-IFR basis. But I know of very high hour IFR pilots who find this, and what they tend to do is they fly the "informal IFR" within the UK and change over to airways once leaving the UK.

The whole point of an IR is for IFR into Europe, anyway (in the piston aircraft context).

It isn't ATC's job to question pilot privileges, so the N number will mean nothing to them. A lot of pilots fly N-reg on the IMC Rating - do you think every one of the 50 or so Cirrus owners in the UK has a full IR?

[Longbow55]

That is exactly what London did to me a couple weeks ago, and when I told them I was an Appropiatley rated pilot, the radio went very silent, and then a reply to the extent of OH we made a mistake. I am still upset over that. I file what the MEA is on the chart or higher and in this case I am either at MEA or 2,000 above it.

I do understand what you are saying, and maybe the UK system is simpler? and maybe it isn't. but when I file a plan at 070 in my mind I am clearly indicating that I am not just an IMC rated pilot, especially with the airspace around he London area. Yes I understand the no single engine over the city of London. but to plain disregard a filed and approved flightplan is just wrong, and makes a person wonder. Oh, and I get questioned on one flight From London again, "Are you sure you want to fly this plan and that altitude" a direct quote, and had to look at the passanger I disbelief, and answered yes I do.. I think you know were Iam coming from when I ask what I do. I wil read your PM in aminute.

[Longbow55]

Justt made a very expensive phone call to my ATC unit, and talked to them somemore, and I actually talked to the tower supervisior, and was told no problem getting my clearances, wich is awesome. I will file with either the compny IO540 mentioned or just fax it in, and I am set.

I would like to thank everyone for the help, and IO540 the PM link, is great, I read that a couple weeks ago and we are current for BRNAV.

[IO540]

I don't understand this.

London Control will not even provide a service to anybody except on an IFR (airways) flight plan. For this an IR is required, so it's not their business to doubt pilot privileges.

I can only suggest the possibility, and please don't take this the wrong way, that the pilot did not sound very confident. In this type of flying, the workload isn't usually high but they expect you to be on the ball like an airline pilot who does that leg a few times a day and knows all the airway intersection names as well as your PPL instructor knows all the sheep within a few miles of his airfield. If your radio work is less than confident and decisive, ATC will get rattled because they are trying to separate you from commercial traffic. They don't have the patience of a monk of London Info, or Farnborough Radar, for example.

Same reason that a lot of people get refused VFR transits of Luton, Gatwick, etc, etc.

[Longbow55]

Not taken the wrong way at all with me. I still don't understand why they did itin the first place. but it was done and in the past. if this next one goes any other than smooth I will complain to someone in authority, whoever that would be, but I don't see any problems with this.

[englishal]

Does Homebriefing work for VFR flight plans within the UK? If so it looks pretty good value for money at €36 per year.....

[172driver]

Well IO540 beat me to it, but to add, www.homebriefing.com really IS a fabulous service, IFR or VFR. And it works worldwide :ok:

[Longbow55]

Well IO540 beat me to it, but to add, www.homebriefing.com (http://www.homebriefing.com) really IS a fabulous service, IFR or VFR. And it works worldwide :ok:

172driver, I am goign to use this system on the 3rd. I did like what I saw initially.

[IO540]

Homebriefing works for VFR too. They then address the flight plan as is normal for VFR:

1. departure

2. destination

3. the FIS of each airspace you pass through provided that you have specified at least one waypoint within that FIR

The gotchas I have found, and anybody in ATC will get these wrong occassionally, is if flying to some small airport in which case 2. is a nearby major one; example: if dest is LEAX the FP should go to LEMG (nobody awake at LEAX anyway). But that's VFR flying; always phone both ends before departure and check they have the FP and often they won't.

I think all this is in some flight plan addressing manual; Homebriefing have this on their computer.

[172driver]

Homebriefing works for VFR too. They then address the flight plan as is normal for VFR:
1. departure
2. destination
3. the FIS of each airspace you pass through provided that you have specified at least one waypoint within that FIR
The gotchas I have found, and anybody in ATC will get these wrong occassionally, is if flying to some small airport in which case 2. is a nearby major one; example: if dest is LEAX the FP should go to LEMG (nobody awake at LEAX anyway). But that's VFR flying; always phone both ends before departure and check they have the FP and often they won't.
I think all this is in some flight plan addressing manual; Homebriefing have this on their computer.

IO540, I like the asleep part about LEAX - you seem to know your way round here ;) On a more serious note, however, LEAX is technically a non-towered field, so your problem (if indeed it was one) may stem from that. The only problem I ever had with homebriefing was when using it for the first time out of LEMG. Tower actually called the club and asked if they knew such-and-such pilot (my good self), as they had just received a flight plan via the internet / Eurocontrol and had never seen anything like it. Kinda anticipating something along these lines I had told the guys at the club that I was going to file via homebriefing. Tower duly enlightened, flightplan filed, departed w/o hassle. Did elicit something like 'ah, the internet plan' upon call-up :ok:

Longbow55 I'm sure you'l love it! It also got nice route-briefing capabilities (incl NOTAMS), a real asset for long x-countries.

[IO540]

Yes, also one cannot fly direct to a place like LEAX without having done a preceeding inter-Schengen stop, which is probably why this problem is rare. But ATC have no excuse - filing a dest of LEAX should clearly tell them to address it to LEMG.

Does Homebriefing offer an ias.org.uk-line multi-leg narrow route briefing. They didn't use to. I will have a look this weekend; going to Germany.

[atsora]

for any other pilots who need an IFR clearance to join CAS , and their dep airfield cannot help ! File a F Plan in good time , get airborne but make sure you ROCAS , call London Information and ask for a joining clearance . At weekends and Public Hols this could be very difficult because of the amount of traffic but it is usually OK at all other times . The service is H24 . Your request will receive high priority . L Info have direct telephone lines to ALL sectors in the UK. If there is a problem issuing the clearance they will tell you as soon as possible ! As already stated they will activate the plan as well .

Good luck

[Chilli Monster]

At weekends and Public Hols this could be very difficult because of the amount of traffic

And you propose what in that case? ;)

Of course - if you could just convince all the idiots, who call London info for no sensible reason not to, then things would be a lot better.

[DFC]

Longbow55,

I can totally understand the reason why ATC did not think you were qualified to accept an IFR clearance on the airways.

No doubt, you are qualified but your comments make it sound like you do not know what you are doing. Things like opting to stay below the minimum safe altitude and referring to flight levels as altitudes and general lack of knowledge of the system start alarm bells ringing. Obviously not having read the procedures in the flight guide or the AIP for obtaining an ATC clearance etc.

The best thing you could do to ease your progress is to go flying with an experienced IR instructor or an experienced and current IR holder who knows the European system. If that is not an option then get a good briefing from one.

--------

I agree that homebriefing .com is a great service and works for both IFR and VFR. However, in the VFR case, Vienna will only address the FPL to the departure arodrome. It is always the responsibility of the departure aerodrome (or it's parent unit) to transmitt departure flight plans. If the flight plan has been received as departure and not destination is it because the departure aerodrome has not done it's job properly.

---

Chilli,

If the FIR is busy, it is OK to call up on the appropriate sector frequency.

Regards,

DFC

[Chilli Monster]

If the FIR is busy, it is OK to call up on the appropriate sector frequency.
And once again DFC shows a complete misunderstanding of UK sectorisation.

How would you know which frequency to call on? - one of the reasons why it would not be ok.

Better advice - and the correct answer would be to call an adjacent ATC unit and get them to do it for you - iaw with the same AIP reference I quoted earlier (which, if you read it, does not say anything about contacting the sector mainly for the reason mentioned above).

[IO540]

DFC

Vienna will only address the FPL to the departure arodrome

Nonsense. From an email from Homebriefing:

"[if] you are flying VFR ... we adress your flightplan normally according your filed points along your intented route"

"you just have to ensure that you have at least one waypoint in each FIR. Our FPL system will recognise this point and generates the necessary adresses for that area. These adresses will be checked by an operator and the FPL will be distributed afterwards."

[DFC]

And once again DFC shows a complete misunderstanding of UK sectorisation.
How would you know which frequency to call on? - one of the reasons why it would not be ok.
Better advice - and the correct answer would be to call an adjacent ATC unit and get them to do it for you - iaw with the same AIP reference I quoted earlier (which, if you read it, does not say anything about contacting the sector mainly for the reason mentioned above).

Not disagreeing that if already talking to an ATC unit, they should the the first place to ask however, my comment was in response to your question of what to do if the FIR is called and they are busy.

Here is a quote from the AIP;

4.1.4.3 Requests for joining clearance of Airways for which the Controlling Authorities are London, Scottish or Manchester Control
should be obtained as follows:
(a) From the ATSU with which the aircraft is already in communication; or
(b) from the appropriate FIR Controller (if different from (a));
or, if it is not possible to obtain any form of clearance using (a) or (b), then
(c) on the published frequency of the Airway Controlling Authority.

If I call the FIR to obtain a joining clearance and they are too busy then according to the above, I call the published frequency of the Airway Controlling Authority.

I know the frequency because it is published in the AIP ENR 3.1 and I will have checked it during planning.

The Jepp enroute charts have the frequencies but the layout is rubbish. Aerads are batter in this respect but the coverage is rubbish. So I am stuck with having to check the AIP ENR section.

Surprised you did not know that! ;)

Regards,

DFC

[bookworm]

Things like opting to stay below the minimum safe altitude and referring to flight levels as altitudes and general lack of knowledge of the system start alarm bells ringing. Obviously not having read the procedures in the flight guide or the AIP for obtaining an ATC clearance etc.
Alarm bells? Nonsense -- sounds just like a Continental captain... ;)

[Chilli Monster]

I know the frequency because it is published in the AIP ENR 3.1 and I will have checked it during planning.
Of course - everybody has access to a copy of the AIP or internet acces to be able to do that when they are doing this plannning :rolleyes: (I keep the AIP of every European country in the aircraft for that very reason - especially when you've just been thrown a change of itinerary with only 10 minutes planning time ;) )
The Jepp enroute charts have the frequencies but the layout is rubbish.
In addition to which the frequency's shown tend to be for a block of airspace, but the sectors themselves are not delineated
Aerads are batter in this respect but the coverage is rubbish.
Ditto above
So I am stuck with having to check the AIP ENR section.
Surprised you did not know that! ;)
I know it all too well - I just tend to answer questions taking into account the practicalities of of what actually happens rather than the textbook ideal world which doesn't always exist ;)