Comair TA - Rumor

[Oilhead]

A little birdie sat on my shoulder a few moments ago and told me CMR have come up with a TA last night. We'll see. I hope so since the pilots are looking at a bleak future otherwise. Good luck guys.

Addendum 5/14/01 - This of course turns out NOT to be TA - Tentative Agreement at all. It is the NMB's attempt at inflicting their idea of a working contract on the pilots. Can't change the title of the thread but it is NOT a TA!

[This message has been edited by Oilhead (edited 14 May 2001).]

[redfish]

your little birdie is not the buzzards in atl is it? t/a will be what we want . what do you say atl, 4 mill a day worth the five star clowns in the glass tower in cvg?

[This message has been edited by redfish (edited 03 May 2001).]

[411A]

"....what we want or not at all...." Where have I heard this before? I remember, it was at good 'ole Eastern Air Lines, wonder what happened to them? Younger guys have short memories, or none at all.

[Oilhead]

Well it is end of business and nothing in public. I will keep my fingers crossed that there is something in this RUMOR. I have talked with several CMR pilots in the past few days, and they are not hopeful of a return to work as usual. The resumes are pumping out. Tough to find work as a striking pilot. Tougher as a scab.

[Airbubba]

>>Tougher as a scab.<<

Yep, that's what some of your new ALPA brothers at Continental tell me <g>...

Like you, hope this has a happy ending somehow. Finger pointing and calling each other names years later is a lost cause from my experience. This being on strike sure ain't what it used to be!

[Oilhead]

So the word SCAB is not allowed with regard to CAL any more eh?!

Once a scab...

[Airbubba]

>>So the word SCAB is not allowed with regard to CAL any more eh?!<<

Yep, that's part of the official ALPA "no retribution" policy offered to CAL to come back into the ALPA fold. The CAL pilots with unfortunate dates of hire refer to themselves as "former scabs" on their internal forum as they sing the praises of being converted to the union movement. ALPA is making them members in good standing and has vowed to fight any discrimination against pilots (now very senior) who took jobs at CAL during the strike.

In case you missed it, here's a release from the IACP (Continental's independent pilot union, now folding back into ALPA):


_______________________________________


Special Report about the IACP BOD meeting in IAH October 23 - 27, 2000

Sheraton North Airport Hotel,
Agenda - all day - ALPA affiliation

Note: The term "CAL pilot" stands for the pilots of Continental and Continental Express Airlines

In attendance:

IACP BOD
ALPA National President, Capt. Duane Woerth and his assistants, Capt. Howard Attarian and Mr. Johnson IACP rank and file members observing and participating

Capt. Pat Burke, President of IACP, called the meeting to order.

Then Capt. Woerth addressed the BOD.
He displayed a video presentation that celebrates ALPA's 70s anniversary
next year. The video highlights ALPA's accomplishments over the last 70 years and featured many prominent supporters of ALPA in politics and industry.

He explained the historical resolution passed last week at the ALPA National
meeting in Miami.

This is the ALPA news release: http://www.alpa.org/internet/news/nr00078.htm
This is the resolution: http://www.alpa.org/internet/news/nr00078res.htm

The key component of that resolution deals with the issue of membership. Under the Board resolution, all members in good standing [i.e. including the "former" sc*bs - Airbubba] from a merged union will be offered ALPA membership.

After Capt. Woerth explained the resolution he gave a speech outlining ALPA's offer to the pilots of Continental and Continental Express Airlines.

Capt. Woerth emphasized that ALPA will give unconditional and unequivocal membership to every IACP member in good standing. There will be no retributions or tricks of any sort - guaranteed. [trust me <g>]

After his address, the members of the BOD asked questions, followed by questions from the rank and file members that were present. EVERY rank and file member of the IACP that had an interested in doing so had an opportunity to voice their opinion and questions. Some members read statements from fellow pilots that could not attend. The questions were interesting and the pro/con statements were balanced. At least two pilots
that would be expected to have a negative view of ALPA (because of their background [wonder what that means <g>]) actually surprised everybody by urging pilots to keep an open mind until all information is available, to keep emotions out of the process and to make it an informed and intelligent business decision...

[Airbubba]

Here's more on a possible TA from the CVG paper:


Friday, May 04, 2001

Pilot union leaders to meet

Gathering may be a positive sign as talks recess


By James Pilcher
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Comair's striking pilots recessed from negotiations with the company late Thursday, with union leaders scheduled to meet over the weekend, a union official said.

A union spokesman wouldn't comment further, but several outside experts on airline contract negotiations said the news was good.

“They may have an agreement and they are probably stepping back to consider it,” said Darryl Jenkins, director of the Aviation Institute at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. “This is a very good sign.”

The 1,350-member union's Master Executive Council could meet for several days when it convenes in Cincinnati, said Paul Lackie, spokesman for Comair's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association.

“More information will come out at the end of that meeting,” Mr. Lackie said.

He declined further comment, saying both sides were under a media blackout imposed by the National Mediation Board, and would not say why the eight-member council was meeting.

Comair spokeswoman Meghan Glynn said company negotiators were still in Washington, where talks had been held since April 25. She said she had no knowledge of a recess.

“We are still there, trying to work out an agreement,” Ms. Glynn said.

The pilots have been on strike since March 26. The talks had been the first discussions between the two sides since the strike began. The negotiations were scheduled to end April 27, but were extended an extra six days.

Neither Mr. Lackie nor Ms. Glynn would comment on whether any progress had been made at the table during the nine-day session.

Experts such as Purdue University professor Frank J. Dooley said the fact that talks had been extended was a good sign, adding that the recess could mean a settlement is near.

“They could be really close and want to go back and consider whether they want to go through with it,” said Mr. Dooley, author of two books on the Railway Labor Act, which oversees labor negotiations in the railroad and airline industries.

Erlanger-based Comair, the nation's third-largest regional carrier, and its parent Delta Air Lines have been losing about $4 million a day on the strike, Delta officials have said.

That totals about $160 million through today, the 40th of the strike.

[redfish]

not a clue 411A, that was then and this is now, dial " 1-800-collect fool"

[Oilhead]

WSJ saying the NMB presented a contract offer to the pilots sometime yesterday. MEC now debating. Ugly but salvageable - just.

They would do well to examine recent history before shooting this down, and trying to look too hairy chested.

[Airbubba]

>>They would do well to examine recent history before shooting this down, and trying to look too hairy chested.<<

Amen to that one! Comair MEC has tried to promote "A pilot is a pilot is a pilot".

Unfortunately, as I learned many years ago "A commuter is a commuter is a commuter".

Anyway, hope everyone is back at work soon with a pay raise...

_______________________________

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

- George Santayanna

[Airbubba]

Looks like this one is from the mediator, not the company and the union...

________________________________

Enquirer News Update - Updated 5:35 pm

Comair, pilots weighing mediator's compromise settlement


By James Pilcher
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Comair and its striking pilots are currently considering a compromise settlement offer presented by the National Mediation Board Thursday.

Mediation board spokesman Daniel Rainey said today that "the settlement offer is designed to resolve the pilots strike that has lasted for more than five weeks."

"Both sides are considering the settlement," Mr. Rainey said, declining further comment.

Paul Lackie, spokesman for Comair's 1,350-member branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, said Thursday that the pilots had recessed from negotiations. He also said that the union's eight-member Master Executive Council was meeting this weekend in Cincinnati, but would not say what the meeting was about.

Comair spokesman Nick Miller confirmed that the company is considering the deal. He had no further comment.

The two sides entered talks on April 25, the first time the two sides had met since the pilots walked out on March 26, citing differences over work rules, retirement benefits, job protection and pay.

The company had said entering the talks that the two sides were about $240 million apart, while Mr. Lackie said the figure was about half that.

Shares in Comair's parent, Delta Air Lines, were $45.16, up 26 cents in trading this morning.

[Diesel8]

Rant:On

Once a Scab always a Scab.

Did not mean to infring upon the Comair news and I certainly hope for the best for those guys.

It saddens me that ALPA has now put Continental back into the fold, yes there are mostly decent pilots there, as a matter of fact most of them are, but the "unfortunate" numbers put themselves above their friends. Just like I would not want a onetime deserter in a foxhole with me, I would not count a Scab to show solidarity to anyone but himself. They have ruined to many lives and careers to ever be forgiven.

Rant:Off

Edited for clarity

[This message has been edited by Diesel8 (edited 05 May 2001).]

[Rogaine addict]

On Yahoo news tonight, it said that that Comair management had voted to accept the offer made by the mediators and that that the Comair MEC was going to send the offer to the general membership for a vote. My confidence that this a reasonable offer is low because of management's quick acceptance. I received my assessment today and I'm willing to pay it for as long as you guys need in order to get a fair contract.

[Airbubba]

I'm still surprised that the offer came to both sides from the mediator, I can't remember a case of this happening before...

Comair did give the proposed contract a slam dunk acceptance, perhaps it's a minor face saving tweak of the company's last offer.

[redfish]

cmr t/a is not endorse by the mec, it is another ploy by larry, curly, and moe. until the mec receives a "worthy" t/a the answer will always be the same. "FORTES FORTUNA JUVAT"

[411A]

Eastern, Eastern, where art thou Eastern....? Could it be....yes, down the tubes. Comair next?

[redfish]

So 411A, do you remember slim pickins in Dr. strangelove when he rode the bomb out the bombbay all the way to the dirt? "c'est la guerre"

[411A]

Redfish--
Sure do remember good 'ole Slim, a great actor. Do you expect that Comair will go like Slim....pfffsstttt....gone?

[Ignition Override]

Considering that COMAIR is almost an all-jet airline, some of whose routes were flown by Delta 737s, DC-9s (Delta had, in the past, the loosest scope language among the "big four")...and COMAIR has been much more profitable, by percentage, than its competitors (i.e. Eagle, NW Airlink, United Express), why could not COMAIR mgmt have agreed to some company-funded retirement and a little more pay than the typical United States FO paychecks, which are only a little above the Federal minimum wage?

If the company wanted to reward pilots for not leaving after a few years, or at all, where was their incentive to keep pilots: merely the pilot ego-boost from replacing all Brasilia turboprops with CRJ regional jets?

I've never been opposed to regionals operating jets, but the overall picture, especially COMAIR's refusal to help fund a pilot's 30+ year career makes no sense to me, whether the competition wants to or not.

Just some straight-forward questions, whether they contradict Harvard Business School MBA theory or not.

[TowerDog]

ALPA is forgiving all the scabs now?

F.ck that, here is my ALPA card, now refund my dues plus interest.

I sure as hell did not pay good cash to support a scab union.

"Unfortunate Date of Hire" my a.s.

------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[Ignition Override]

Tower Dog-Was/is Continental an open or closed union shop, even when the IACP was their union?

Maybe most ALPA members don't like the idea either, but as the vast majority of Continental pilots were hired (or "crawlbacks") after the strike, should the entire group be excluded from ALPA membership because of the scab minority who would also receive a membership card? I don't know what the ideal solution is in a very imperfect world.

The real Continental (and other airlines') scabs will still have their names listed permanently on "the scab list"-fortunately, nothing can erase those names and their shameful actions, no matter what smoke is blown on Pprune or elsewhere (by Lorenzo's apologists, i.e. some who have never lived in the US...) to attempt to cloud that simple fact.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 06 May 2001).]

[TowerDog]

No, don't know any perfect solution either, but the answer should be somewhere in ALPA's
by-laws.

Let the pilots that never scabed vote ALPA and get a contract and the scabs will not be represented or protected by the union.

I belive that is how it works over at UA.

Either way it is not really my concern as I changed from ALPS to APA recently.
Yet, leaves a bad taste in the mouth.



------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[Petergozinya]

411A, why the hard-on? You've never got a kind word for any airline pilots. Whaaasuppp? Comair pilots are conducting a lawful strike. Correct? Your recollection of events at EAL are far from relevant, and have no seeming accuracy. Talk a walk, get some fresh air. It'll do you a world of good.

[411A]

Petergozinya--
I have no problem with airline pilots whatsoever, I just hate to see guys blinded by the ALPA (or APA) line that...."we have all the power and the company must capitulate." Eastern folded because of the policies of Lorenzo (Borman before)AND the incessant demands of the IAM. ALPA led EAL pilots down the primrose path and then did nothing whatsoever to help them later. I have talked to many of them and they ALL say the same. As I have worked overseas for many years I have not had to join any union. If the guys at Comair get their contract then more power to them but they should NOT believe all the BS from ALPA. I always admired Bud Maytag, the CEO of the old National Airlines in MIA. He played ALPA like a Stradavareous violin, they always had a strike in the summer, the LOW season in the Florida market at that time. And the ALPA guys bought the BS every time. Hard to believe. Also, have noted in the latest Aviation Week that the new contract with the DAL pilots limits to a large degree 50 seat regional aircraft. Who is to say that DAL will not just let Comair fold and sell off the airplanes? There is certainly a ready market for them.

[Ignition Override]

411A-your comments appear to give more of a balanced picture about CO and EAL than some of the past descriptions. Such brief comments about Eastern's demise are generally true, however it might be very oversimplified to say that ALPA (and TWU etc?) only followed the IAM like blind sheep. Unions can make tactical and strategic mistakes (wasn't that under Duffy's "leadership? That says a bit about one large problem at ALPA then-Duffy's airline, Delta, was Eastern's main competitor in Atlanta etc, on many routes, and almost NO Eastern pilots were hired by Delta-did Duffy try to help ANY of the EAL pilots get interviews/jobs?).


Back to "Vlad"-wasn't Lorenzo already stealing/selling off the valuable SODA reservation software system, along with other major assets, then leased back to Eastern at very high rates? There were a number of major factors, although I don't remember how far apart the two sides were on pilot salary givebacks.

Even some business journals seem to have had scorn for Lorenzo's style ( he was finally denied an Oper. Certificate by our Dept of Transportation in the 90s) to do nothing except kick the unions between the legs, just to grab huge piles of money via his Jet Capital or Texas Air holding companies. In the 70s at Texas Int Airlines, he put all of the full-time ground agents suddenly on part-time work and stole their retirements! These were not just young people, with decades left to work. In the 80s and early 90s the US Executive Branch, many members of Congress and the FAA allowed his team to break many rules.

Despite some strategic mistakes made by ALPA and IAM's leader, Charlie Bryan, it just baffles me how people can praise CEO's etc who can knowingly break laws to extort money from the true airline career employees, thanks to macho man Reagan's (he had some good points) very cold anti-labor stance. Bush Senior was well known (was a friend of Lorenzo's family) our country's working people.

Hey gang, when did selling your company's vital assets with exorbitant leaseback rates and stealing peoples' retirement funds become justifiable to supposedly moral govt leaders? Was that "best for the country", as US politicians' propaganda machines prefer to describe the candidates? Not trying to exclude anyone's political heros' good points, but this WAS ALLOWED to happen to thousands of career airline "staff", as they call it "over there". Either Bush Sr or Reagan refused to have a PEB (Pres Emer. Board) help settle Eastern's mess, for the first time in history.

If unions should only roll over and show their belly (I'm trying to be polite) to their harsh enemy, then how does a union fight such a self-serving shark, a corporate "Vlad the Impaler" (the nightmarish true inspiration for Count Dracula)?
Come on, because someone's girlfriend or daughter misjudges where to park the car, or naively picks up a hitchhiker with a limp, doesn't justify a mugger's cowardly attack, does it? There must a parallel, whether melodramatic or not. Pardon the length of this soapbox speech.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]

[Airbubba]

>>wasn't that under Duffy's "leadership? That says a bit about one large problem at ALPA then-Duffy's airline, Delta, was Eastern's main competitor in Atlanta etc, on many routes, and almost NO Eastern pilots were hired by Delta-did Duffy try to help ANY of the EAL pilots get interviews/jobs?<<

That's exactly how I remember it. Sometimes ALPA is better at calling names than it is at getting jobs for the casualties of its campaigns.

Anyway, back to the Comair TA which Oilhead reported hot off the presses days ago...

The Comair MEC has decided to send the TA to the membership without recommendation, traditionally this means damning it with faint praise.


____________________________________________


Comair Pilots Prepare to Vote
On Contract Settlement Offer

By MARTHA BRANNIGAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


The leadership of the Air Line Pilots Association, representing striking pilots at Comair Inc., a regional airline unit of Delta Air Lines, said it will submit a settlement offer to its pilot membership without an endorsement.


ALPA said Comair's 1,350 pilots are scheduled to vote by telephone between Thursday and Saturday on the offer, which was presented by the National Mediation Board in a bid to end the strike that has dragged on since March 26 at Cincinnati-based Comair. Union leaders plan to hold meetings this week at Comair bases in Cincinnati and Orlando, Fla., to explain details of the proposal to pilots.

Capt. Max Roberts, an ALPA spokesman, said that while "it was not a negotiated agreement," the union's master executive council decided to present it to members for their consideration, particularly since the strike begins its seventh week on Monday.

Comair said it has agreed to the settlement offer, which the National Mediation Board presented after extensive talks in Washington, D.C. Details of the proposal weren't disclosed.

Comair pilots have been seeking significant gains that would bring them closer to pilots at major carriers.

Comair pilots walked out March 26 after overwhelmingly rejecting a company offer that, according to the company, would have boosted their pay by 36% to 43% by 2004 in most cases and included a company-funded retirement plan. According to Comair, under the earlier offer, the annual salary of an eight-year captain of a 50-seat regional jet would have risen to $66,660 this year from $58,360 and to $80,980 by 2004; the pay for a first-year co-pilot would have risen to $20,900 this year from $16,180 now.

Meanwhile, mainline pilots at Atlanta-based Delta, the nation's third-largest carrier, are slated to vote between May 22 and June 20 on a tentative contract endorsed by the pilots union's leadership last week. According to Delta, pilots' pay increase would average 11.3% for mainline pilots in the first year of the contract and 4.5% each year after that. Pilots at Delta Express, its low-fare unit, would get bigger raises, totaling 63% over the five-year accord. According to Delta, the average pay for a Delta pilot in 2000 was $158,538.



[This message has been edited by Airbubba (edited 07 May 2001).]

[SKYDRIFTER]

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO HISTORY -

Go back to the third man issue with Frontier and Wien Airlines. ALPA was going to sacrifice entire airlines (but small ones) to prove a point - not that the point really stood a chance in the first place; given the DC-9.

In the Continental strike, Duffy was quoted far and wide as saying that ALPA had a vested interest in the destruction of Continental, to prove the power of ALPA. The Braniff pilots and Eastern pilots will tell you about the smell of ALPA solidarity - somewhere between bovine manure and greenbacks.

A similar fate awaits the ComAir pilots. Make no mistake about that.

ALPA is destined to tell the ComAir pilots to vote down the latest contract, while the Delta pilots pick up the flying. In the aftermath, the commuter and regional operations are intended to take on the aura of being too risky (against ALPA), versus having the main line pilots doing the same flying at 'normal' proportionate pay rates.

If the ComAir pilots vote to continue the strike, ComAir will immediately fold and the strike pay / benefits to the ComAir pilots will cease.

In the smoke screen created by ALPA, the long term pilot destiny will be glossed over; the ComAir pilots will get the shaft.

Just read history, it's all there. The magnitude of the ComAir layoffs are the precursor.

Any doubts? Have the ComAir pilots ask the obvious questions. No, ALPA can't guarantee jobs at the majors; that's nonsense.

If anyone has the means, check to see what ComAir assetts have already been pre-sold - it could get interesting. At this point, the undeniable clues should be in the open.

The ComAir pilots have already been nailed. Their only possible hope is to approve the contract. That won't get them their jobs back - ultimately, but they'll have a moment of revenge.

[Ignition Override]

Let's not forget that the tar which is brushed on a former union leader, i.e. Duffy, should not, by implication, tar the membership and all of the leaders.

Lorenzo's so called "airline builder" team of corporate cutthroats took tens of millions in USD from sales of important assets and pension funds, leaving all of their carriers in a very weakened condition, no matter what the labor groups were able to achieve, or use to keep their airlines from being fragmented.

With enemies in the White House, those airline workers (this includes pilots, for those who are too ignorant to realize that pilots are blue-collar employees) at Texas Int'l, CO, EAL and many at TWA were doomed and had no protection anyway.

Reagan and Bush Sr would not allow integrity to influence their decisions regarding the workers (staff), i.e. refusing to call for a PEB... Any business owner was ENTITLED to use a scorched earth policy, even steal your retirement money, no matter what regs or laws were broken.

[SKYDRIFTER]

IGNITION OVERRIDE -

Corruption doesn't care where or when it finds a home.

Not that much has changed. You're quite correct as to the CAL history. The dollar figure was radically higher, however.

I would be shocked to see the ComAir pilots NOT get sacrificed by ALPA. History has a certain inertia about it. I'd feel privileged to apologize to you for my being wrong.

If I'm wrong, the MEC will recommend that the pilots accept the deal.

Now, we wait.

[redfish]

Skydrifter- quite obvious you never heard of the RJDC! see rjdefense.com

[SKYDRIFTER]

REDFISH -

You're quite correct, I hadn't heard of that one.

Make that www.rjdefense.com (http://www.rjdefense.com)

Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, that site represents a Delta (ALPA) pilots' 'Down with ComAir" mindset. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I can't blame the Delta pilots for being concerned, but you're either ALPA and a union 'brother,' or you're not.

The CAL IACP has been doing their best to get the commuter (RJ) pilots under one umbrella. That's quite a courageous position for a 'scab' outfit.

I'm not up on the history, but a 'scab' started the IACP, with a closed shop.

There was some talk that the same guy was doing his best to block the ALPA merger, but I'm not in touch with the reality on that topic. Somebody jump in, if you know that part of the history.

There was a lot of speculation that IACP was designed as a buffer to keep ALPA off the property - post Lorenzo.

[Ignition Override]

I'm not normally in touch with anyone at COMAIR or Continental (or Express), but the independent union (FEPA?) at FEDEX might have been set up as a compromise also. This impression of mine might be very oversimplified.

Off the topic (as usual here), but as for independent unions, there were supposedly a number of different factions at FEDEX, and their pilots ended up with a contract which is reportedly a good bit less "generous" than the UPS pilot contract. To me there is a paradox about that: Fred Smith always seemed to want to take care of his pilots, and thanks to the struggles of ALPA over the decades, FEDEX' use of aLPA contracts as general models allowed their pilots years ago to do well IF volunteering to fly on days off etc (a secret in their somewhat provincial corporate hometown, where many laymen still believe they are the best-paid pilots in the country, or world, without working on days off). One guy who flew (as a TAR) at VR-60, NAS Memphis years ago, after which he went to FEDEX, was too ignorant (maybe arrogant also) to acknowledge the benefit of ALPA's indirect but very strong influence on their pilot pay and benefits, in their "Flight Crew Handbook", which old Fred claimed was a valid contract...I guess it was very easy to close one's eyes (or insert one's head) and pretend that their pay/benefits package was based on purely random figures and workrules.

However, despite the two or more struggles at FEDEX to organize, Fred and his group decided after all, that they did not REALLY want his guys and gals in the cockpit to have a contract which would be the best in the industry. Partly because of mgmt's intransigence for a long time, many formerly anti-union pilots there voted either for ALPA or FEPA.

Anyway, for what it is worth, UPS pilots had left the Teamsters Airline Division at some point recently and started their own group-maybe this, plus good solidarity, resulted in a better contract than that at FEDEX.

Some of my impressions are from jumpseating pilots, or from a pilot here whose family member flies FEDEX MD-11s etc.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 08 May 2001).]

[SKYDRIFTER]

CONTRACT ISSUES -

Look at the current contract at American West. Being ALPA doesn't guarantee a thing, except the ALPA cut.

The CAL pilots will get nailed, if they don't get their board to dump the excess expenses. Presently, the IACP leadership is famous for spending money and not supporting the pilots.

See the CS-985 accounts at www.webpak.net. (http://www.webpak.net.) The attorney who sold the captain down the road is now the lawyer at IACP. With ALPA coming on the property, that captain will still have nothing.

[Airbubba]

Looks like some of the Comair boys smell a rat in the recent Delta deal. Indeed, it is beginning to look like they may be hung out to dry if they don't accept the mediator's Comair TA. Support from Dalpa has been lukewarm to say the least.

Fair Disclosure: My pessimistic analysis is somewhat biased by memories of a similar situation with EAL in 1989.

Comair pilots got some practice at suing ALPA national last year in their unsuccessful quest to force their way onto the Delta mainline seniority list.


From today's Cincinnati Enquirer:

________________________________________

Three Comair pilots have filed suit against their national union, saying ALPA International [sic] has shown a conflict of interest by allowing its Delta Air Lines' branch to negotiate a tentative agreement that limits the growth of Comair and other Delta Connection carriers owned by Delta.

The suit was filed Friday in federal court in New York, according to Comair regional jet captain and plaintiff Daniel Ford.

“ALPA has a legal responsibility to treat all their members fairly and equally ... and cannot support the efforts of the Delta (union) to restrict Comair and simultaneously fulfill its obligations to protect and promote the interests of Comair,” said Mr. Ford, 36, a 13-year Comair veteran and president of the RJ Defense Coalition, an organization of regional jet pilots.

Delta's 9,700-member union reached a tentative agreement April 22 with the company in a deal that would allow Delta to complete the purchase of 57 70-seat regional jets on order. In addition, Delta could purchase an additional 18 70-seat jets, but only if it adds the equivalent of three mainline pilot positions for each jet.

And the Delta deal limits the amount of flying by Delta Connection (Comair, SkyWest, Atlantic Southeast and AC Jet) to 34-37 percent of the entire Delta system, Mr. Ford said.

Anya Piazza, spokeswoman in ALPA's national office, said the union was aware of the lawsuit, but had yet to be officially served.

[SKYDRIFTER]

INTELLIGENCE INDICATED -

It's a tough call, but the ALPA pilots need to get a firm grip on what solidarity means. The logical decision was to prevent the commuters from exceeding 20 seats in prior contracts.

In any event, the ComAir pilots are apparently quite savvy to the probability of being sabotaged by ALPA - from within their own ranks. Of course, there will be some passionate word-smithing to describe 'rape' as 'sport sex.' It will be economic incest, in any event. ALPA has its good history, but there remains a rotten dark side, as well.

For all the money collected, ALPA should be working on a legal avenue to upgrade the rights of pilots to the level of a bus driver. Anyone who has been through, or close to, an FAA violation will see the significance in that suggestion. Pilots eat their own, more often than not.

Anyone with a brain will advise that a contract is 10% protection against the company and 90% protection against their fellow pilot.

Change is indicated.

[411A]

Plain simple truth....Comair guys have been sold down the river by ALPA, how else can the situation be described? EAL....all over again! And the Comair guys have just awaken?
A three ring circus, but unlike CX, no peanuts.

[pakeha-boy]

skydrifter...enligthen me and tell me what the current contract is at America West(not american west)...this I have to hear...kapai

[Taxsman]

411 - This is absoutely nothing like the EAL thing. Do you think 3,500 pilots didn't go to work at Eastern because ALPA said don't? You don't know **** all about the EAL situation, so why not just shut your stupid mouth.

[411A]

Taxsman--
Gosh, you sure sound agitated. Actually, quite like the EAL situation in many respects, only the IAM is not involved. Suspect ALPA will sell the Comair guys down the river. And if you haven't noticed, Eastern has gone by-by. Will Comair be next? There is a ready market for the aircraft. The pay-for-training guys will be left high and dry. Would be better for them to lower their collective expectations.

[redfish]

411a duhh? struck work puts you where and on what list?

[SKYDRIFTER]

Taxman -

411A makes some good points. Granted he's talking IAM, not so much ALPA. The intentional sacrifice of workers for the pleasure of power-tripping by a union whose officials have nothing at stake is more ammoral than politics.

Conversely, after the pilots sealed Eastern's fate - preferring death before dishonor - ALPA was not as effective as it may seem in getting jobs for the Eastern pilots.

Don't forget the Pan Am - Delta deal, either.

Instead of Clinton trying to get "sex" defined, ALPA is trying to spin-doctor "brotherhood."

The jury is still out for a few days; we wait.

[DownIn3Green]

I reiterate what I have said on a previous thread:

Bavis said it best in Aug 89. Go back now or there won´t be anything to go back to.

Comments about ALPA are spot on. There will be no help from them. Want proof?

How many EAL planes do you see at the B and C concourses in ATL?

[Airbubba]

The Comair MEC has published a resolution on their internal web site rejecting the mediators' TA.

Looks like this strike may last a long time...

[SKYDRIFTER]

AIRBUBBA -

Thanks for the info, but I'd bet a beer that if the TA is rejected, liquidation will progress with lightning speed. Rest assured that I'd prefer to be wrong.

[Airbubba]

I agree, the strike may outlast the airline... It looks like Delta is very serious about dismantling Comair, something that is well within their ability and legal rights unless Comair Alpa can somehow block it in the courts.

A couple of analysts' quotes from today's CVG paper:


“The longer Comair is on strike, the more of Comair's aircraft will be flown by other Delta partners,” said Glenn Engel, airline analyst for the Wall Street firm Goldman Sachs. “I won't say that the airline would go away entirely, but when those planes are gone, what happens to the airline?”...


“We just think all the pilots and their families should ask themselves a very serious question — am I better off with Comair or without Comair?”

Airline analyst Ray Neidl said such a question is not inappropriate, especially if talks don't resume after a possible defeat of the proposal.

“Comair could in theory last forever, but they are definitely shrinking on the vine,” said Mr. Neidl, analyst with the Wall Street firm ABN Amro. “The thing is, if the pilots reject this contract and hold out for mainline wages and working conditions that they aren't going to get, there may not be a lot of jobs for them to come back to if the airline restarts.”

[411A]

Skydrifter----
I would sure hope to be proved wrong but ALPA has a certain reputation, something the younger guys have FAILED to grasp, hope i'm wrong. There may well be a LOT of hurt feelings. Suspect Comair = Bye Bye.

[SKYDRIFTER]

LAWSUIT -

The essence of the lawsuit against ALPA has been published and details the undermining of ComAir.

The details paint ALPA to be quite the self-serving snake with fangs at both ends. Judging by the smell, the snake seems to move backwards.

I don't blame ALPA for protecting the mainline pilots, but you don't rape the children to save mom the "hassle."

If there was a conflict, ALPA should have been open about it & not go through this thinly veiled web of deceit.

No doubt, the CAL pilots have a surprise coming, as well.

[DownIn3Green]

Whatever you guys decide, good luck to you...

Huff, if you´re out there send me an updated e-mail address.

[411A]

Latest news does not look good.

[Ignition Override]

Let's hope that BOTH COMAIR mgmt and pilot MEC negotiators make compromises at the table or many of those pilots over 40 might have serious trouble getting interviewed or hired at a good company. It would be tragic for most or all COMAIR careers to be over.

Just curious: did the Delta pilots' MEC in the past ever try to push mgmt for a flow-through agreement?

And the economy is as unpredictable as always. Good luck to all of the COMAIR employees, not just the pilots.

[Rogaine addict]

Thursday May 10, 7:09 pm Eastern Time
Contract Called Crucial for Comair
Comair Management Says Contract Vote Is Critical for Airline's Survival
By JOHN NOLAN
Associated Press Writer
HEBRON, Ky. (AP) -- Comair could proceed with plans to add jets and pilots if the regional carrier's pilots approve a contract proposal created by federal mediators, Delta Air Lines President Frederick W. Reid said Thursday.

If the deal is rejected in voting that began Thursday, Delta would consider offers it has received for some of its jets, Reid told reporters and about 200 Comair workers at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Results of the contract vote will be be announced Saturday.

Comair has told striking pilots the airline could go out of business if the government proposal to end the walkout is rejected.

Max Roberts, a spokesman for Comair's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, said Thursday that the proposed contract is not as good as Comair would like everyone to think.

"One thing should obviously stick out,'' he said. "If this is such an absolute gem, why is it so hard to sell to the pilots? If it takes the president of Delta coming up here and threatening the pilots, there's something wrong.''

Comair's three-year growth plan includes buying 80 new jets and adding 900 pilots. Comair is the nation's second-largest regional airline, behind American Eagle, with 1,350 pilots.

Delta paid $1.8 billion last year to have full ownership of Comair, which served about 25,000 passengers a day.

If Comair pilots endorse the deal, they would be the best-paid pilots in the regional airline industry.

The proposed 4 1/2-year contract would offer pay raises of 13.2 percent to 29.8 percent in the first year, with raises of 25.5 percent to 56.5 percent over the life of the contract.

The pilots' union says the offer is insulting and Comair's pilots should be paid in line with pilots at Delta and other major carriers.

Delta officials say the strike is costing about $4 million a day in lost revenue. Union leaders say Comair's future is up to management.

Pilots' union leaders said the mediation board told them there would be no new talks for 30 days if the proposal were rejected.

Comair has shut down all flight operations since the strike began, eliminated 200 pilot jobs and will lay off 2,000 of its 4,000 nonstriking employees on Sunday. It has deferred orders for new jets and sold several older aircraft.

Pilots rejected a five-year deal proposed by Comair in March. Union representatives also declined to endorse that proposal.

Comair, based at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, formerly operated flights to 95 cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas. It has canceled flights through June 7.

Bull$%!#, I believe you guys are wrong and that Delta/Comair management is bluffing, trying to scare the pilots into accepting a very unfavorable contract. Comair claims to have been losing $4 million/day x 45 days = $180,000,000. That means they could have given their pilots $133,333 over the life of this next contract and broken even, but the tab keeps on getting bigger. Management is wasting hundreds of millions in order to deny their pilots from making major airline standard pay. These pilots have worked for substandard pay for many years and helped build this airline to major airline status, for this they get offered another substandard contract take it or we'll shutdown offer. This is pure bull$%!#, they're not going to shutdown. As far as the RJDefense and lawsuit against ALPA, the lawsuit has no merit. My analagy is that this is similar to other DAL employees suing Delta because since the pilots will get a big pay raise, they will not be able to give them a bigger slice of the pie also. Sorry Capt. Dan Ford, (Comair pilot suing ALPA and president of the RJDefense) I guess you need to understand the ramifications of deciding to become a lifer at a major (commuter) airline. Hang in there guys and call their bluff. If it turns out that I'm wrong and they weren't bluffing then this will be the kick in the pants you needed to get out and find that major airline job (you'd probably eventually be grateful that it happened.

[411A]

Some, it would appear, still forget....a commuter is a commuter, not a MAJOR airline.

[skyrocket]

Hang in there guys,
Of topic, Anyone know of a Capt.R.DePaiva? Sure would like his e-mail details.

Cheers Skyrocket,
[email protected]

------------------
126.9 call,, ANYBODY out there???

[The Resistance]

Gentlemen, I suggest you ignore anything that 411 has to say. If you have a look at the 'Fragrant Harbour' Forum, you will see he is spending 25 hours a day trying to upset the Cathay Pacific pilots who are trying to stand against their managements attempts to destroy their careers. He joined our once 'scab' outfit, Cathay Freighters, and failed his upgrade. He is now in Singapore. He originally was an Eastern Scab. He is an embittered and burnt out has-been who has almost SEVEN HUNDRED (yes....700) posts on PPRUNE. What sort of pathetic individual has THAT much to say on issues involving nearly every airline in the world. What a pathetic old fool.

[redfish]

411a (I use the little a as in scAb), just knew you had something to hide. Two days ago they (DL/CMR) said we'll close the doors if you don't vote yes, now today if you vote yes we will add 80 more RJ's and 900 more crews (as per Leo M. of DL on the news) do figure. Well here is something you don't have to figure out: an overwhelming vote of NO! And by the way 411"a" don't key any cars over there.

[411A]

"Resistance" has his knickers in a twist, as usual. CX Freighters, EAL? Sorry sport, wrong again. SQ, left there years ago. CX guys are upset because I pointed out some of their past problems. Afraid they are affected by the Ostrich Syndrome, bury head in sand and hope problems go away. As for Comair, suspect that the condition may well be terminal. Mullin & Company are in the drivers seat, and if the guys listen to the old ALPA line and reject the package, many will be on the street. Looks like DAL means business. Time will tell.

[Ignition Override]

Folks, no persuasion or arguement can influence another person's different, especially opposite outlook if one is disregarded, or worse, attacked in a personal manner. This is related to the main reason for cockpit CRM-keep egos mostly locked in the car trunk (boot?). Why not on Pprune?

Nothing in the world of business or politics operates exactly like theory, everything involves making compromises, but who should compromise the most? Realism and a very well calculated risk assessment is critical, while also factoring in the overall landscape. As grim examples, Napoleon did not really understand the gently sloping terrain at Waterloo (and his enemy's ability to hide thousands of troops just behind it.


[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 12 May 2001).]

[Airbubba]

>>He is an embittered and burnt out has-been who has almost SEVEN HUNDRED (yes....700) posts on PPRUNE. What sort of pathetic individual has THAT much to say on issues involving nearly every airline in the world. What a pathetic old fool. <<

I agree, anybody with 700 posts must be a pathetic old fool <g>...

[Huck]

Comair boys & girls need to realize what I did a couple of years ago at ASA. In the Delta family, you gon' sleep under the porch. You ain't gonna make it inside the big house.

Before they were 100% bought by DAL, Comair used to have huge ambitions. They wanted to BE the next Delta. And why not? 35 years ago Delta pilots were flying turboprops between Augusta and Atlanta....

What needs to happen: cobble together a contract, then get Leo to divest himself of you and ASA. Form a joint airline. Develop more point to point, non-Delta service. RJ's are money-printing machines. Become the competition, not the "midget widget."

'Course, easy for me to say. I pulled the handles early.

[DownIn3Green]

Still, though Huck, after a certain number of years, it´s hard to pull the handles, as you say, even though in the long run it may be the correct thing to do.

I know one Comair guy who joined in 1988 and struggled through the lean times just to remain based in MCO. He´s now a pretty senior RJ Capt and in his position, I´m not sure what I´d do.

I just hope for him and all of his friends they end up having jobs to go back to after this mess is over.

I do know from personal experience that when a large group of highly qualified pilots become available on the market (EAL and PAA), the jobs alluded to by ALPA don´t seem to materialize for the majority....

Good luck to all...

PS-AirB, I´m approaching 400 posts...I must be getting as bad as you...

[Ignition Override]

Did the COMAIR pilot negotiators actually demand the same salaries as on a Delta 737?

That is hard to believe, and this story must be based on rumour. I can't believe that any regional MEC would expect their mgmt to agree to hourly pay even near Delta's previous contract pay, even $30 per hour less.

An American Eagle CRJ Captain told me that an Eagle CRJ (with 70 seats) Captain would earn more, if flying the new stretched version.

Who really knows what the COMAIR MEC would settle for? It is very hard to believe that their MEC could be that unrealistic.

[411A]

Still, considering the present hiring schedules of the major airlines, these Comair guys will at least have a port in a storm. Not as Captains but starting at the bottom of the senority list.....again. Would it not be better for these guys to accept 56% rather than demand 96%? Sing the 'ole ALPA swan song and end up on the street is not a very good option. For the junior guys, well they have nothing to loose, except their reputation in the very small airline hiring world. They would be branded as trouble-makers and not likely to be hired by anyone. Bad news travels fast, especially with regards to the Pilots Record reporting act. And, if they think that these records cannot be manipulated, think again.

[Wino]

Actually 411a not quite. There are huge blocks of pilots at UNITED that were x eastern that honored the picket line. Same thing at American.

All of the people that were fired in the wake of the UPS strike that refused to cross the picket lines were found better jobs.

Do not compare 1990 when there were 10s of thousands of pilots out of work with todays market.

If there are NO jobs, then finding a job for a striker is tough. In todays world its much easier.


Cheers
Wino

[411A]

Wino--
Hope you are right, although as we are entering (are in) a business downturn, there could indeed be lean times ahead for many of these guys. Would it not be better for them to accept the offer and THEN look elsewhere?
'Tis always easier to find a job when you have one. We will find out shortly.

[Wino]

It looks like the COMAIR pilots are gonna "press to test" on this one.

The NMB's suggested settlement has been voted down by a 10 to 1 margin.

Cheers
Wino

[The Resistance]

411, I see you are now OVER 700 posts (...since only March 2000!!!). What IS it about you and your compulsive need to comment on EVERYBODY'S situation. You are nothing but a rather pathetic old fool, who obviously doesn't have a life.

[Herb]

Wrong again 411A
S.O.G.

spread your management message on some other forum.

[411A]

Guess the word will come from ATL on Monday, does not look good. More guys out of work, not just pilots but support staff as well. ALPA at its best.

[Rogaine addict]

411A: if you're not a scab, it's only because you didn't have or need the opportunity. I can tell from your past comments that you would most definitely cross the picket line or stab other pilots in the back if it were to benefit you.

Here's a Reuters press release on the contract vote. They're gaining, they got 93 more yes votes this time. Delta/Comair is bluffing or they wouldn't have offered the carrot for a yes vote or liquidation and replacement by another Delta Connection for a no vote. I'm glad the Comair guys didn't fall for the lie, Maybe Mgmt will get serious about negotiating and quit playing the head games.

Saturday May 12 8:52 PM ET
Comair Pilots Reject Proposed Pact by 10-1 Margin

COVINGTON, Ky. (Reuters) - Pilots of the nation's third-largest regional airline voted on Saturday to reject a new 4-1/2-year contract, prolonging a 48-day strike that has cost Comair Inc. nearly $200 million and could force the company out of business.

Union leader J.C. Lawson told a news conference that the Comair pilots had voted down a settlement offer crafted by the National Mediation Board 1,042-99 amid warnings from management that rejection could be a fatal blow for the company.

The Air Line Pilots Association (news - web sites), declining to recommend approval of the offer, had sent letters to the 1,350 pilots warning that the company seemed ready to "commit suicide'' if they rejected the settlement.

Company officials said their offer would have raised the pilots' pay scale to the highest level in the regional airline industry, instituting increases of 13 per cent to nearly 30 per cent in the first year and 25.5 per cent to 56.5 per cent over the life of the contract.

Current pay ranges from about $16,000 a year for beginners to $70,000 a year for top-scale pilots.

The new pact would have lowered the maximum duty day for pilots to 14 on-call hours and provided for a minimum of 11 days off a month.

It would also have required the company to contribute up to 6 per cent of a pilot's earnings into an accruing pension fund while increasing company contributions to 401(k) retirement plans.

"DISREGARD AND DISAPPOINTMENT''

Lawson said: "Following three years of negotiations and 48 days on strike, Comair pilots searched for a reason to say yes but once again found disregard and disappointment. This offer, like the previous one, was not the offer that management said it was.''

Comair, a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, previously announced plans to lay off 2,000 nonstriking employees beginning on Sunday if the strike continued.

Frederick Reid, Delta's president and chief operating officer, said on Thursday that Delta would seek other ways to utilize its assets at Comair if the contract was rejected, including selling its jets to other airlines and using other Delta Connection carriers to fly Comair routes.

With the strike dragging on, Comair had already begun to retrench by eliminating 200 pilot positions and reducing its fleet by 17 aircraft.

Before the strike began on March 26, Comair was transporting about 25,000 passengers daily on its 815 flights connecting mostly small-market cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas.

The company's main hub is at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport in Hebron, Kentucky, and its second-largest hub is in Orlando, Florida.

The strike was costing Comair nearly $4 million a day, company officials said.

The National Mediation Board has said that it will not call the two sides back into negotiations for at least 30 days but that they can initiate new talks on their own.

The pilots' old contract expired in June 1998, and federal mediators joined the sporadic negotiations a year later.

[SKYDRIFTER]

OUCH -

Granted, Delta has a lot invested in ComAir, but it wouldn't take anything to sell the assetts to another corporation to do the reduced flying. Their separate 'training academy' can use the business.

In any case, it's gonna get interesting.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[TowerDog]

The latest proposal that was turned down had a top pay of $104,000.00.
Pretty darn good good for a commuter.

Hope them Comair guys ain't stepping on their cranks by voting no to a 56% pay rise.



------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[SKYDRIFTER]

DYNAMICS TO BE CONSIDERED -

The real-time effect of the TA needs to be looked at. If a 20 year pay scale held 104K, that wouldn't do anything for an 8 year captain.

If an 8 year captain went from 56,000 - 70,000, that's a pretty decent real-time jump.

While retirement is a possibility at an RJ carrier, they are normally spring-boards to the majors, hence, retirement isn't a major deal for the greater majority.

However, to look at all the warnings of a total shut-down and the rejection the TA, not too bright. ComAir didn't mean THAT much to Delta. That's a lot of unrecovered losses, including entire families.

It's up to history to say.

If ComAir folds, the Delta pilots will have gotten their way, but at the expense of the ComAir "brothers." Let's hope that ALPA isn't into enhanced management of tribalism.

Right now, it appears to be exactly that.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[411A]

Hypothetical situation (or likely scenerio):
Comair folds, the aircraft are returned to leasors (or sold if owned) and Delta writes off the whole investment for tax purposes. Under IRS rules, this loss can be carried forward for an indefinate period, thanks to the tax reform act of 1986. Together with Delta's write offs on their new aircraft, no taxes to pay on profits for years to come, and shareholder value is enhanced to a great degree. ASA picks up the slack with some of the ex-Comair aircraft and it is a win-win situation for DAL. Who loses, well the ex-pilots of Comair of course, together with the support workers, who now lose their jobs.
And ALPA gets a big black eye. Some of the older Comair pilots may well never fly for an airline again, thanks to ALPA greedy policies. And the DAL mainline guys are smiling all the way to the bank. Then, with that enhanced shareholder value, Delta goes looking for another airline to buy, or merge with. Delta mainline guys sure must be grining now. They will have to go to a tailor to have extra pockets sewn into their suits to hold all the extra cash. And Comair guys, off to the unemployment line. They could conceivably be looked upon as troublemakers by other smaller non-union carriers.

[SKYDRIFTER]

411A -

I like your crystal ball. I can't say I like its projection any better than you do, but, unfortunately, it appears to be pretty clear.

I sincerely hope for the sake of the ComAir pilots that we're both wrong.

The sad part is that the ComAir pilots were given due and timely notice of the approaching danger. Any wounds will be self-inflicted.

Sadly, those such as ASA will be licking their chops in anticipation. Although, to some extent, you can't blame them.

Blind trust in ALPA is no different than blind trust in the stealth and invisibility of the remaining virtual government of the USA.

Congress makes laws, but they are very selectively enforced, depending on corporate profit outcome. ALPA chapters get contracts then enter into 'Side Letters of Agreement,' defeating the contract, depending on corporate profit outcome. What's the difference?

Profits!

[411A]

Skydrifter--
Much like the ALPA snake you mentioned earlier, the one with fangs at both ends. The Comair snakebite will take a long time to heal.

[Flight Safety]

Unfortunately dissolution of Comair is going to be the end result of all of this.

Comair will lay off 2,000 employees today (Monday morning). Dissolution of the airline will mean 4000 regular jobs lost, 1400 pilot jobs lost, and who knows what the economic impact will be for all of the outside business supply companies.

What a terrible outcome.

------------------
Safe flying to you...

[Oilhead]

"What a terrible outcome."

------------------

Disagree with you there. A terrible outcome would be for these pilots to give in to corporate and Dubbya terrorism and cross the line. These guys are striking for a worthy principle/cause and didn't walk just to irritate people.

They have been making their own informed decisions all the way through this, and obviously are continuing to do so. I was pleased at the 10 - 1 vote against a NMB contract; it was not what they negotiated, and it was not what they wanted. Now, if the Comair MEC negotiators came up with a TA, and that received the same response, that would be troubling, and indicate that the work-group have no confidence in their leadership. In that case they should recall their MEC. As it stands, they are being force-fed a turd, and they have almost unanimously said "NO". THey are not saying "NO" to talk themselves out of a job. They are trying to get themselves a fair contract for an international airline. Do not go down the route of being influenced by numbers alone. (As it is the proposed top end pay is in my opinion pi$$ poor for a jet pilot in this day and age.) They are right to tell the NMB to stick it.

It is good to see a group of people stick up for themselves and not give in to bullying. They are acting entirely within the Railway Labor Act - i.e. a legal dispute.

The Comair pilots are heroes and should be given the recognition as such for what they represent.

[This message has been edited by Oilhead (edited 14 May 2001).]

[Wino]

Hey Towerdog,

You of all people should know better than to believe the press's calculations on what the contract was worth.

The NewYork times said that the TA at Tower that you guys rejected was worth 350,000 dollars per year!

Having read through some of it, it basically reverted to flying to the FAR maximums. That just aint right, nor is it safe.

Cheers
Wino

[TowerDog]

Hi Wino.

Uh, I was never refering to the net worth of the contract, but rather to the top pay of $104,000.00. I of course assumed it was base pay at the top of the payscale as reported by my news server on the 'net.

IF so, we are talking serious money for a "commuter".

If however the 6 digit number was calculated by flying a FAA maximum of 100 hours a month. 300 in ninety days, 900 a years and so on, well, then not so impressive any more.

As far as the T.A. TA, don't remember hearing
about $350.000,00, but sounds good, I will take it... :)



------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[Wino]

The settlement from the nmb had them reverting to flying to FARs

I believe the 104 number was calculated on 1000 hours of flying in a year, + the value of sick days and vacation days sold back. Something like that is how it is usually done.

I learned a long time ago that press reports of a value of a contract are meaningless because the are written by people with no understanding of the work rules that frame the contract.

Cheers
Wino

[Ignition Override]

Does anyone know what the average or top CRJ pay will be for those at American Eagle (without working voluntary extra on days off), who will fly the 70-seat CRJ, with info qualifiers?

The pay issue is very deceptive if described by a simple sound-byte (media style).

[411A]

Redfish--
Is the view any better now than last week? ALPA at its best. Good for the Delta guys, not so good for Comair.

[filejw]

Just for info I talked to a Comair RJ Capt today,$53.75hr 5 yr rate is his current pay.No rigs or min.day,anybody think thats fair?Thank goodness he and a fellow Comair Capt got hired today at NWA.Both nice guys and will fit in.JW

[Wino]

411a

You should atleast read the the proposed contract before you diss it. Its worse then what they had before. The work rules were thrown out and they were back above a 15 hour day...

Wino

[ironbutt57]

Same story, different year, as a former ALPO dues-paying regional airline (in those days commuter airline) pilot, I was intrugued by the fact that myself and colleagues were ready to pay dues to a union that had absolutely no interest in us whatsoever, other than the paltry sum they recieved from us as dues....it is clearly in ALPO' best interest to put regional jet operators out of business, and this just may be the test case so to speak...heroes...yes, of the tragic sort, their families and children are going to pay the price for the greed and selfishness of ALPO pilots...I refused to cross the line at CO in 1983, now I would be forgiven...does anybody REALLY stand back and look at this "union"...the regional airline pilots of america need a union with regional pilots interests and needs as it's mandate....be a scab, no way...it's good to see the solidarity of the ComAir pilots is holding, but for themselves...not ALPO...

[411A]

Wino---
I did read the proposed contract and, for a commuter (regional) carrier, I thought it was not bad at all. But consider, even if it was NOT all that was wanted, would it not have been better to agree and then look for something better? The pilots with the most experience would have a good shot at the major carriers and the more junior guys would still have a job with which to gain experience and THEN look elsewhere. In addition, when pilots left, it would make room for others and, just as important, the support workers would still have a job as well. ALPA did these guys NO favors. And as for the "hope" that they were going to join the DAL seniority list, not in their lifetimes.

[Wino]

The strike isn't about joining Delta's seniority list, I don't know where that came from.

It is very simple, if they used the same pay and compensation formula plus work rules that the majors pay, I am sure they would have a deal. For about 70k a year.

Comair/Delta simply want to keep running it as a slave ship. The AA/United/Continental contracts tie salary to productivity. Fly faster bigger aircraft, make more money. AA/pays 150k for a fokker 100 seater. A 50 seater could easily pay 75k with the same work rules. I am sure that that would be approved in a second.


Infact, the majors could be doing that today. That is the whole point of scope anyway.

But Delta is drawing a line in the sand that COmair will always be a slave ship. Well its a 2 billion dollar line in the sand they have drawn, and there is no guarantee that they aren't just deferring their problems. When ASA comes up there won't be another convienient carrier for them to dump off all the aircraft and routes.

Honestly, I don't think that I could safely work to FAR maximums anymore. I haven't got it in me to show up at 8 oclock at night and stay on duty for 16 hours flying 8+ legs in that period finishing at noon the next day. I would shut the company down faced with that choice as well. Better to be an ALPA martyr than a terminated for refusing to fly because I was tired commuter pilot, or worse DEAD because I made a fatigue induced mistake.

Cheers
Wino

[Airbubba]

Another great victory for organized labor I suppose. Remember the picture of the IAM striker holding the Miami Herald front page showing Eastern had ceased operation? "We Won!" was the caption.

At least the young guys will be able to find jobs...


_________________________________________

Thursday, May 17, 2001
Comair cutting workers, aircraft

By James Pilcher
The Cincinnati Enquirer

After a week of threats, Comair acted Wednesday on its vow to shrink the airline if pilots didn't take a deal to end their strike.

The Erlanger-based regional carrier said it was cutting 20 more planes out of its fleet and eliminating 200 more pilot positions. It also will lay off an additional 400 non-pilot employees beginning May 29, including another 120 local workers that will be added to the 1,500 laid off this week.

In addition, Comair began canceling flights 60 days in advance. Previously, operations had been canceled 30 days in advance.

“We deeply regret the significant impact this strike is having on everyone who depends on Comair,” Comair president Randy Rademacher said in a release. “These are the difficult, but necessary, business steps we must take at this time.”...

[Ignition Override]

If COMAIR could have been better off by having their own separate union, it is hard to imagine how or why.

The COMAIR negotiators, from what I have read, are from their own MEC council. Therefore, their decisions are ultimately an internal process, and not the responsibility of national ALPA.

If any of you who have airline contracts for your pay/benefits and workrules, feel that you all would be better off without representation or a contract, please state the reasons.

Maybe a job on a blue ATI DC-8, a Connie Kalitta DC-8 ( 3 or 4 people "allegedly" having to confront the "main man" in order to convince him that 'hydraulic power to the elevator must be repaired' just before a sched heavy takeoff with very little actual pitch control-oh yes) or an Evergreen jet would be a better career than at a unionized carrier?

These and other carriers might be accepting resumes (CVs) at this time, interested in pilots who are only "mission-oriented".

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 18 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 18 May 2001).]

[Rogaine addict]

I think some of you are focusing on ALPA National or the Comair pilots as the sole cause of this impasse, maybe you've been drinking a little too much of the Comair company kool-aid. Let's turn around and look at the managers who's job it is to make money for the Delta/Comair shareholders. This strike will cost the bottom line many times more than the pay, retirement and duty rigs that it would take to get Comair back to work. After this strike is over with, one way or another there will be a major housecleaning of Comair and Delta Connection management. They have made piss poor business decisions and seem determined to run the company into the ground rather than allow their pilots the opportunity to make a decent living at what has been a very profitable airline.

[DownIn3Green]

That may be true, Rogaine, However, I think the Comair guys have made their point.

All ready 200 have lost their jobs. If the rest don´t bite the bullet and call this strike, (no matter how well intentioned it is) off soon, I´m afraid there won´t be any jobs to go back to.

Out of those 200 who were let go (I notice the word furlough wasn´t used in any news release) I wonder how many still owe the Comair Aviation Academy loan payments for their training?

Wouldn´t that be ironic? Pay for training, go on strike, lose your job, and still have to pay your old parent company back.

For What? Preferential hiring at another ALPO carrier? Get Real.

ALPO has sold these guys a bill of goods, only thing is, none of it´s any good.

[This message has been edited by DownIn3Green (edited 22 May 2001).]

[LittleBubba]

For the longest time some of you have bitched about ALPA, not doing anything or not doing enough for the regionals, so finally they went on strike and you are accusing ALPA od selling them bad goods. Hey, the pilots wote the on the contract, not ALPA National.

Of the 200 laid off, 127 have already picked up emlpoyment at other regionals (ACA, Air Wisc, Mesa, Piedmont). Regionals right now are dying for qualified people, not saying that a new hire at Comair is qualified, but most of those guys were checked on the RJ.

[DownIn3Green]

LB,

127 working again...if true, that´s great news.

Now if some of the senior guys would just get picked up by the majors....

[Airbubba]

>>Now if some of the senior guys would just get picked up by the majors....<<

At commuters and freight operations many of the senior guys stayed because they couldn't get a job at the airlines, e.g. no college degree, too old or just don't "interview well". Unfortunately, a lot of these folks will never work for as much as they were making before the strike. But at least they can claim they "won" the strike...

[SKYDRIFTER]

Strange -

The new airplanes bound for ComAir are rumored to be in the paint shop with ASA colors emerging.

[DownIn3Green]

AirBubba,

That was my point exactly. An enforcement action, no degree and a host of other reasons potentially make the older guys unemployable at the major level.

Guess they may become "mission oriented" as I believe it was alluded to in a previous post.

Very sad indeed...

[SKYDRIFTER]

The saddest part is that the rest of ALPA membership will blindly find the ComAir fate "acceptable," because it didn't happen to them - yet.

Thus, the USAIR scenarios wait to see their future at the hands of ALPA. As did Western, as did Frontier as did....

This has a methodology, if anybody wants to pay attention.

While the typical pilot correctly believes that he needs ALPA; ALPA doesn't need him - just his dues. Ask the Alaska 506 pilots, for starters.

As usual, it's all about money.

[DownIn3Green]

Don´t waste your breath, Sky,

Some people never learn. How many PAA guys did UAL pick up, and in what positions?

Same for DAL with PAA.

Some get lucky, but for most it´s a dead end.

But like it´s been said previously, at least they can sleep at night knowing they "won".

Or did they?

[Airbubba]

>>Same for DAL with PAA.<<

Well, Delta took 783 Pan Am pilots and merged them onto the seniority list with an eleven to one ratio. Can't complain too much about that one...

[SKYDRIFTER]

Rather sounds like -

"Daddy, do it to little Billy, don't do it to me. Please!!!"

Daddy ALPA feels SOOO powerful.

[Wino]

You forgot all the PANAM pilots that went to United as captains with the pacific Routes.

My next door neighbor is one of those. They did VERY well thank you very much.

More than Half of PANAM was taken care of splendidly. Not bad for an airline that didn't make money in its last decade of existence.

The Jobs for most of the PANAM pilots is one of the great success stories.

Cheers
Wino

[Airbubba]

>>The Jobs for most of the PANAM pilots is one of the great success stories.<<

I don't know if I could say that...

Some of the pilots with Pan Am when it shut down were offered inteviews as newhires for jobs on the bottom of the UAL list. Even those that were hired were given deferred class dates due to EEOC considerations (i.e. they weren't "diverse" enough). The pilots who went with United in 1985 were hired in the 1960's and had better luck. However Delta did take Pan Am pilots with seniority when Pan Am folded, United which claims to be the hard core ALPA airline did not. This is ancient history but probably relevant to the Comair situation.

[redfish]

Well I see where you guys still do not have a clue, " Dial 1-800-collect Fool"

[411A]

Hey there Redfish, how is life on strike pay?

[ironbutt57]

How much is strike pay these days? must have been good for the Eastern blokes, I was paying an assesment from my commuter pilot salary so a striking eastern guy could take home more strike pay than my working salary...then he could get on a jumpseat ahead of me, 'coz he was a major airline pilot, and I was not...this treatment from our parent airline with whom we code-shared....strange business we live in here...hope the comair guys and gals get this sorted out soon...because it is only going to get worse...suprised the call for "replacements" hasn't gone out yet...which leads us to believe that the intention is to close the airline if things persist....hope i'm wrong...

[DownIn3Green]

Iron,

During the EAL strike one of the requirements for collecting strike pay was to walk the picket line for X hours per week.

Don't know about the other bases, but in Mia, some of the ethical bretheren went to the local daily work places and hired some down and out type to sign in and carry their sign for them. They paid the guy a pittance and collected their strike pay from guys like you while they were on the golf course or out on the water.

I agree, that no call for "replacements" would seem to indicate it's all over except the lawsuits...

[partyreptile]

lets see, Delta buy Comair for 1.8 billion, and now they are ready to flush it down the toilet all in the name of what? shareholder value, retaining control, maximizing profit potential, realigning cost structure , or is it just a case of "piss on you and the stockholders, we are going to drive this one off the cliff." And we want to blame the Comair pilots? You'all need some serious counseling if you think the crisis is the making of the Comair guys.

[DownIn3Green]

Let's see...You're flying Captain on an RJ, making mid to high $60's, and want more. Fine, leave and get a job that has what you want.

Being abused by the company re: flight and duty times? Hold them to the FAR's. If they take action against you, go to court.

Counseling for those who think this crisis is the making of the Comair guys? Get Real.

If not them, who then?

[CONVAIR]

I believe you gentlemen do not understand the complete implication. Yes, it is about money, but it is also about a clash of two titans, ALPA and DAL. ALPA gets a fat raise for the DAL pilots but the COMAIR pilots will pay the price because they are vulnerable. Bush will keep DAL flying no matter what but he does not care about COMAIR. In the final analyisis, COMAIR will be either dismantled starting in July or a call will go to impose the contract and anyone who wants to work under those conditions may. further, it is ridiculous that they negotiate for 3years and the come up with a document that is worse than the one at our company! It is not industry leading. The Comair mgt has misread the situation and will let the airline die rather than admit it. Believe me, an 18 yr RJ cappy deserves more than what they are offering since that group is just a handful. Besides, Comair has made Siebenburgen and CO multimillionares so they don't care.

[Turtlenest]

As someone who was actually a rEAL participant in the Eastern strike, there never was a requirement to walk the line to get the strike pay of $2,000 per month (regardless of seat). If one thinks $2,000 a month was the reason 97% of the membership didn't cross the line, well then, you don't understand what happened at Eastern. The Eastern pilots are directly responsible for the mega contracts of today because they alone got rid of the Francisco Lorenzo's of airline management . My hat's off to the Comair pilots.

[Airbubba]

Well, just like in the Eastern debacle, someone might benefit from the strike but it won't be the Comair pilots I'm afraid...

They may be jobless but at least they can keep scab lists and say they held the line, right?

[Wino]

So a slave should stay a slave forever?

Oh thank you massa


Wino

[Boris Badenov]

Downin3green says:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2"> Let's see...You're flying Captain on an RJ, making mid to high $60's, and want more. Fine, leave and get a job that has what you want. </font>

Or flying FO on an RJ and making maybe $25k a year, with open time, and want more. Either way, leaving is what they're doing...en masse. How is this incompatible with a free market? Go ahead and try to find your scabs, I think you'll have a hard time. Maybe go down and recruit at Gulfstream...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2"> Being abused by the company re: flight and duty times? Hold them to the FAR's. If they take action against you, go to court. </font>

I trust that you'll be picking up the attorney fees and feeding the family pending that big cash settlement and reinstatment.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2"> If not them, who then? </font>

I don't know. But I'd begin by looking at the managment of a company that is producing record profit margins but is unwilling to pay their first year FO's more than the guy that cleans your pool. You do have a pool right?

Regards,
Boris

------------------

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;But I'd begin by looking at the managment of a company that is producing record profit margins but is unwilling to pay their first year FO's more than the guy that cleans your pool.&lt;&lt;

This line applies to several of the majors as well. It is improving at some carriers but the time honored tradition of screwing the new guys with "probationary" pay is alive and well here in the U.S. I've been there more than once...

[DownIn3Green]

All I'm saying is the Comair guys gave this their best shot, and it seems to have missed. Once Comair is liquidated it's over.

I say go back to work and fight from within, if that's what you feel you have to do, because it doesn't look to me like you're going to win on the outside.

[411A]

Noticed some of the guys on the Comair picket line in the newspaper, friend of mine mentioned that he knew some of these at EAL, they were the diehard ALPA guys. If true, seems like the younger guys were hoodwinked...big time. Wouldn't be the first time.
And, if Comair is folded, it will be a BIG tax loss for Delta, not a bad scenario for the financial bigwigs at DAL.

[ironbutt57]

I would think if Delta were worried about Comair, the problems would have been solved...it's all about survivability, and DAL has it, and employees don't...their families pay the price in these instances. Something has to give here..and maybe it's the Comair pilot GROUP already several hundred have lost their jobs as a result..is ALPO placing them with other ALPO carriers...doubt it, Eastern scabs got hired at United as early as a year before strikers...have the names of two of them..no won't post them....this whole standoff is a mess and the only loosers are all the employees of Comair....

[obob]

If DAL decides to kill the cash cow, I for one will be very confused. Just so they know, however, there is a bunch based in the midwest, south and east that are ready, able, and all too willing to take over where the fight was left off if the Comair boys and girls fail in their endeavor, and the doors are closed.
If you thought the seasoned veterans of Comair are steadfast in their conviction, wait untill you see how dedicated and ornary a group two thousand strong and twenty-something young can be with nothing to lose, and absolutely everything to gain.
I howl at the notion that our very governing entity fills their ranks with the perfect recipe for it's own revolution.
Comair pilots are the leaders, the first imposed with the opportunity to demand change. They are simply the "recon" for those who wait impatiently behind the ramparts of a fateful date in the fall of 2001.
Send them home. Provide us the catalyst which will justify the means to the end in which we are so dedicated. I for one, can not wait for this fight to enter our arena.

[DownIn3Green]

Obob,

Ooooohhhh, Bob.....and you think you're confused now?

Just wait until you're "walking the line" and watching your job head down the toilet.

Have you stopped to think where that rent (you obvivously don't own)and car payment are coming from? How you going to eat?

And forget about preferential hiring. ALPO has no say in HR decisions at the majors, despite what they're telling. And even if they do, all of their horsepower will have been used up by the Comair folks...

In other words, if you're aching for this fight, it sounds like 1. you're not happy where you are, and 2. you don't appear to have your mind on your job, which beside being a sign of immaturity, is downright scary.

[ironbutt57]

these 20-something have everything to loose...their careers, and families....who's feeding the kids...this is not a game you're playing...and delta will kill the cash cow before they lose this battle however big it looks to you...it is small potatoes as opposed to the consequences they face if they capitulate...this is hardball folks...not tee-ball..you've stepped up to the plate...so you'd better be ready for the consequences...

[Wino]

I disagree. If delta tries the same stunt with ASA it will be all over for DELTA.

They have surrendered cincinatti. If they don't settle with Comair they will lose their entire hub in Cincy... They can't surrender Altanta, there won't be anthing left.

Cheers
Wino

[411A]

"All over for Delta"? Hmmm, don't think so. The "commuters" (ASA included) will be folded if they do not agree to DAL terms, they have VERY deep pockets. All Delta has to do is set up another one...hope they do to teach these guys a lesson they will never forget. Still, suspect some are beyond learning, 'tis a shame for the young guys. They will learn a very hard lesson.

[CONVAIR]

411a. I don't know your background but I believe you are totally mistaken or an overpaid Delta pilot. ASA/Comair and others are made of various age groups and their pay has nothing to do with their age. Are you saying that 20 year olds hired by the majors should not get paid what 30 year olds are? Maybe we should reduce retired military pilots pay since they get a pension. There are young pilots at every carrier. If the majors are losing money while the small jet airlines are getting a 10-20 per cent return, then there must be an inequality factor somewhere.
The issue of COMAIR is not just about pay but also about the respect one gets from the parent company and the lack of respect from the ALPA guys. They will say platitudes but I can assure you if DAL shuts down Comair and then hires a franchisee (don't be surprised to see MESA come in) there won't be a thing they can do. The test will be ASA then. Once again there are the have's and the wish to have and the won't ever have!
I think Comair will the the last and I hope they get their CV's out ASAP!!

[obob]

Nice rebuttal Greenie. I am not one of the young guys. However the cause is just, and I will stand the line. You are correct in the assumption that I don't own a home. Perhaps if I recieved an appropriate wage for my services, I would. Or perhaps if the major boys had the foresight, or more importantly a less arrogant demeanor, they would have demanded that the jets in question be flown by the major airline pilots. If such were the case, these planes would be on Delta property, creating more jobs with compensation in line with all of the other jet pilots at Delta, and Comair would not probably be in the pickle that they are at the moment. There is no reason that a 50 passenger airliner introduced into the market should not have been operated by the major carriers. If anything, the major pilots should have demanded that instead of scoping it. Why is it that they want the ninety someting seat Fokker, but the 50 seat CRJ is not good enough? Now we have to fight for their mistakes.
For the record, I hope for no fight. Happy or unhappy I may be with my job, as irrelevent as that is, the issue here is unequal representation and compensation for essentially equal services, and the dedication of those directly affected to correct the disparity.
My intended point, was that the next group in line(Coex) will be predominately very young, and very passionate about the issue. And I believe history has told us(or maybe it was Churchill) that if you're young and not liberal, you have no heart, and if your old and not conservative, you have no brain(or something to that effect). The issues are important enough for the older, conservative Comair group to strike and risk everything for, I think the young ones will be more than willling to follow the same route. It is far from over.
As for keeping my mind on my job, I pride myself on being able to chew gum and walk at the same time. Oddly enough I can provide my piloting services effectively and safely while at the same time, be concerned and involved with the issues in the industry that so effect my life. Perhaps it is I who should be scared.

[411A]

Yes indeed, the young stary-eyed pilots may well think that to strike is noble and justified, throwing away their jobs. But, do they at all consider the jobs of others in the company? The mechanics, ticket/reservations agents, baggage staff etc, all the rest who do not share their joy at being so noble? Now lets face facts, what these pilots really want is to be part of the major airline owner, to be merged into the parent company seniority list. Well, it ain't going to happen in their lifetimes, so they had better get used to the lower salaries because it will not change. A commuter, is a commuter, is a commuter, no matter what type of aircraft it operates. To expect otherwise is foolhardy indeed.

[West Coast]

To the gentleman who suggested that Delta would fold its regional carriers to save face...well perhaps they might, pride and/or saving face can be expensive. I submit however that a conventional carrier that relies heavily on the hub system cannot remain competitive without feed to that hub.

[Boris Badenov]

411A: How can we afford to consider anyone else when the company is unwilling to do so? The adversarial relationship of contract negotiations is entirely the fault of cut-throat, greedy managment, not of the men working the line. Think about it...we've got a hell of a lot more to lose than they do. Maybe the market won't support regional jet flying at all since its apparently too expensive for the majors to pay reasonable wages and provide decent work rules. C'est la laissae faire!, I guess.

I am curious to know where you people think this vast pool of qualified applicants for "McDonalds Cockpit Team Member" jobs waits, chomping at the bit to get into the lucrative world of RJ flying, though.

Regards,
Boris

[ironbutt57]

I don't see Delta systematically folding their wholly owned regional partners, but I don't see them capitulating to what DL management percieves to be an unacceptable contract as wrong/right as they may be..it would be bad business to set a precedent in this direction...if the Comair pilots have the resolve to walk the walk, and see this to the end as it appears they do, them good for them...I just hope they don't pay the ultimate price of loosing everything they have fought for all these years since organizing...when was it 1984 i think? And I agree...look out for Mesa...

[DownIn3Green]

Obob,

My apologies. I must have misunderstood the tone of your earlier post. If I now understand you correctly your main beef is with ALPO, and their two sided double edged sword that they negotiate and represent with.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can't please all of the people all of the time, and that is what they're trying to do.

If Comair voted ALPO off the property, I bet management would come right back to the bargining table.

BB, you ask where is the qualified pool of pilots? That's what was said in 1989, and guess what? EAL put the call out, and the next day the response for replacement pilots was so overwhelming that they couldn't handle the training load. It started in mid March, and by August the local MEC told the members to go back to work or all the jobs would be taken.

So don't kid yourself. Not wanting to get into a right or wrong, scab issue, but the qualified pilots are out there. ALPO knows this as does Comair management.

As someone said earlier, the fact there has not been a call for new hires does not bode well for the long term future of Comair.

[ironbutt57]

There needs to be a regional airline pilots version of alpo...one that has solely the interests of regional airline pilots as their mandate...the dual mandate of the faa is dead how's about shoot a hole in this can of alpo as well, and leave the major airline pilots to their food, and get our own, why should regional pilots eat table scraps from major tables...not too sure however that this is the time for comair pilots to de-certify the union...think that would call for lots of vaseline and assume the position...

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;BB, you ask where is the qualified pool of pilots? That's what was said in 1989, and guess what? EAL put the call out, and the next day the response for replacement pilots was so overwhelming that they couldn't handle the training load. It started in mid March, and by August the local MEC told the members to go back to work or all the jobs would be taken&lt;&lt;

But wasn't it ALPA national who urged them to go back to work and they refused, convinced the world couldn't do without them? And remember how the pilots who put their names on the list to go back to work were put on the scab list even if they never went? Will they be rehabilitated by ALPA like the Continental replacement pilots?

I can remember being in the Eastern strike headquarters in ATL a few days into the strike. The mood was almost festive, everbody wearing pagers and cell phones. A few weeks later, many of the strike leaders were quitely slipping away to jobs at other carriers as the masses were urged to "hold the line".

The Comair strike has eerie parallels to the Eastern fiasco. The Comair ALPA web page even has "REAL" logos, much like the "rEAL" stickers we faithful put on our pilot bags years ago.

If the Comair pilots are determined to make themselves a human sacrifice to "change the industry" perhaps the die is already cast and this discussion is merely a post mortem.

Remember the UAL strike of 1985? Years later they proudly wear strike pins and crow about the great victory but they actually capitulated, got a B-scale, and lived to fight successfully another day. TWA battled its own version of Lorenzo in Carl Ichan and survived to have jobs and seniority to fight about over at American. The record of pilot groups who have left the cockpit for over a month in the past couple of decades since deregulation is not good .

[ironbutt57]

airbubba think we're falling on deaf ears here...most of the comair pilots were probably at college (or highschool) during the above-mentioned strikes...these guys are throwing away their jobs for a union who tries and does to some degree limit their opportunities to be jet pilots....brainwashed....by who that's the question

[Flare_you_fool!]

It seems every comair pilot is fully aware of the implications like never before of the double edged sword of Alpa. See the RJ defence coalition www.rjdefence.com (http://www.rjdefence.com)
However, they have made a choice, at last count 1042 for and 99 against, to stand up to the offensive and digusting work rules and treatment they have had to endure during the duration of their current contract. Is it not feasible for all of the people suggesting they are committing suicide that they would rather die trying than go back to the same treatment. Maybe they've just had enough of being treated like crap.
It's more than just money and retirement, if comair goes who is to say the pilots will not find a better lot in life. Have they got a lot to lose, the senior guys sure have but they certainly seem prepared to do just that. The treatment they have had must have been pretty bad.
Comair is leading the way, the rest will follow. Without a doubt!!!
Regards
FYF

[DownIn3Green]

Airbubba, I think it was ALPO National urging them to hold the line, and the Chairman of the EAL MEC who said go back. He was then recalled. You are correct, those who signed up to return were branded, so to speak, even if they never got to set foot on the property again.

IB57, Further to what you said about the leadership slipping away to greener pastures, refresh my memory; Exactly where did Randy Babbit end up?

[ironbutt57]

Delta!!!!!!!!!!!!dec...direct entry captain!!!

[DownIn3Green]

Now that's preferential hiring...

[redfish]

ATTENTION ON DECK: 411a, IB57, Din3G, and last but not lease AB... "corruptio optimi pessima"

[DownIn3Green]

Airbubba,

At least I'm not last!!!

[aviator]

DownIn3Green and ironbutt57...

I have read your postings for some time. It seems that both of you choose to misspell ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association).

Personally, I find it takes away from the points you are making.

Do you mind telling us why you find it important to do so?

[DownIn3Green]

Aviator,

I'll be happy to answer that one. ALPA is for the dogs. All one has to do is review recent history (say from 1989 to 1991) and you can see why.

Just look at the posts just above regarding the leadership looking out for it's own.

The EAL MEC Chairman rode the sinking ship, going down with it, and ended up teaching junior college on the east coast of Florida.

His replacement jumped ship and ended up as a Direct Entry DAL Captain.

In regards to my point being negated by my "misspelling" ALPA, these points seem to be lost on anyone who "hasn't been there" so it doesn't really matter, does it?

[Flare_you_fool!]

Din3G
When is enough to much for these guys and gals. I'll say it again, maybe they would prefer not to return to such an oppressive management system. Their choice given theses circumstances is a simple one, change it or leave, and leave they may well do, together. What makes you think they are not aware of the repercussions?
Regards
FYF

[This message has been edited by Flare_you_fool! (edited 05 June 2001).]

[aviator]

DownIn3Green,

I regret that you have had personal experiences with ALPA that have still left you with strong and negative feelings.

It seems that each pilot group haved voted ALPA in as their union, and also have the option to vote ALPA out if they wish.

It also seems that each pilot group decide what is important to them in each negotiation. In Comair's case, the vote on their TA shows that they are willing to take a stand for their beliefs. That may carry a heavy price, and they appearently are willing to take that risk.

Their strike benefit is $1400/month, which is more than the normal salary for a new pilot. This person may feel that he/she has little to loose, where as a senior Captain will be affected more severely.

Where do they go from here? I don't know.
I do understand that a commuter will not be compensated like a major airline. I also know that it is disgraceful to have pilots living below the powerty line and be working to total exhaustion on their long duty days.

Individual experiences aside, as a group of airline pilots, we are better off being represented by organizations like ALPA than being left to fight our battles individually.



[This message has been edited by aviator (edited 05 June 2001).]

[ironbutt57]

Aviator....better off than fighting alone most definitely....yes, but after having spent many thousands of dollars of dues on alpo membership and having watched them abandon their responsibility to it's membership so many times, regional and major folks alike, it makes it hard to imagine that pilots particularly regional airline pilots continue to flush their hard-earned money down the alpo toilet...surely there is a better way, as many carriers have discovered...alpo takes care of itself as a business first and foremost....21 years ago i lived in your neck of the woods flying metroliners getting no money, and major abuse from our employer...repeated attempts to have alpo "protection" went unheeded...not interested...not until they spent money during the CO strike of '83 did they become interested in recruiting regional pilot groups into their membership reason MONEY....they were big about warning us to not cross the CO picket line..."you'll be ruined for life" but they were uninterested in us for any other reason...('course look at all those"awful scabs" now) now they need money scabs get the clean bill of health...the hypocrisy is unbelievable...so hence the name alpo "dog food union" from an ex braniff capt (the real braniff)...

[DownIn3Green]

Aviator,

No offense taken. You asked and I answered. I also understand your take on the situation.

However, the pilot group will not win this one.

Although $1,400 per month is more than the newest pilots at Comair (and many other regionals) bring home per month, I think that long after the money is gone, they would rather have had their pittance of a salary and the 80-100 hours turbojet time in their back pocket each month instead.

As for the more senior pilots, I still maintain that if the situation is unbearable then they should fly their flights as their consience dictates, while looking for another position.

They gave it a tremendous shot, one that is now being heard in the US Congress and the Bush Administration. I'm afraid that's as close as they're going to get to victory.

[This message has been edited by DownIn3Green (edited 05 June 2001).]

[411A]

The Comair guys, many just new and still wet behind the ears, have thrown their jobs away.....and why when they were offered a 56% increase......reminds me of the OZ idiots in 1989, no brains. They deserve ALL they get, which may well be......nothing.

[CONVAIR]

Gentlemen: IB57 (Hello!) is absolutely correct. As a pilot with a major small jet operator (ALPA's response to the name regional jet is to now call them small jets so that the regional airline, commuter airline nomeclature is eliminated and thus the the small airline salaries) you guys miss the point. A. ALPA is only a business which survives by expansion B. Comair guys are deserving of the same pay structure as the majors since the responsibilities are the same i.e the formulae should be the same.
The Comair pay is not the total issue. Sure 56% sounds good but I don't hear you guys saying how greedy the DAL/UAL pilots are. As I said before, the issue is not entirely about money but in the way the whole situation is being handled. ALPA will let Comair sink and any other small jet operator since 2% of a their salary is a smaller piece of the pie. My only regret as well as IB57 is that I am not a scab at UAL or CAL making the big bucks. Being scared of the name calling cost me a lot of money and being an ALPA member helped NOT!

In the end, I enjoy flying which is why I started and this other stuff is merely amusement! Remember in the end it really won't matter a hill of beans so get over it.

[aviator]

Convair,

I was stunned when reading your statement.

Does ironbutt57 know that you speak on his behalf?

"My only regret as well as IB57 is that I am not a scab at UAL or CAL making the big bucks. Being scared of the name calling cost me a lot of money and being an ALPA member helped NOT!"

[411A]

Redfish---
Strike pay will run out soon, that position on the DAL seniority list that the guys "hoped for" will certainly not happen.
And the 56% increase will go to some other company, along with the aircraft. Silly boy. Do you still believe ALPA is your friend?

[ironbutt57]

Known the bloke forever...feel the same way...never scabbed...but had lots of chnces...actually had the job in 83 why not our company was forcing violations on us the union would not entertain our efforts to organize...still didn't go right thing to do....now the folks who did are members-in-good-standing...wow what an organization!!! They just gave any pilot who is working under wretched condidions...(and in 83 that was MOST regional pilots) to run across the next picket line.....still wouldn't do it personally...have better things to do with my time...neither would convair...trust me but look at it from where we both stand...and thousands of other ones like us..and i'm sure many present day comair pilots who were flying the navajos and bandeirantes back then..(any left) alpo needs a huge wake-up call...and the formation of a regional pilots union is past due...why don't you regional pilots unite for a proper cause...YOURSELVES!!!!

[Brad737]

The "RJ defense association" suing the very union membership being "taxed" for their strike bennies angers many. But we were informed that this is a small group of comairites not representative of the group. Also, the Comair MEC was advised by National that they didn't hold a strong enough suit for an effective strike. Their size, their demands, and the political climate were not conducive to this action. These facts were lost on the Comair pilots' leadership. Damn the torpedoes.
To be fair, I think their demands are reasonable(for the most part). But timing is everything.
As to wanting seniority integration, that's easy. Just buy a navy blue suit with red tie. Submit an app to Delta. Study,study, study, then show up for the tests and interviews. Assuming you've done all of this correctly you will be integrated into the seniorinty list as a new hire. I think the most that could be hoped for is some sort of flow through agreement, wereas the senior pilots are offered a certain percentage of the new hire slots. Or something like that.

[DownIn3Green]

I heard today (and this may be just an unfounded rumor) that quite a few of the Comair guys have been picked up by Jet Blue.

If this is true, the question that comes to my mind is why didn't they just interview there and then resign from Comair, rather than throw away their own and their colleagues jobs?

There may be a pilot shortage, but those guys and gals behind the scenes (check-in, reservations, ramp, etc.,) don't have the option to work in another city for a few days a week and then jumpseat home.

A lot of lives thrust into turmoil by these folks...

[offblock1]

A411 you must be the sadest piece of s... I have ever read about. In all your postings all you do is slagg of other pilots-wanted to write fellow aviators but you do not have any fellows for that matter. I hope nobody hires you, because than they really got an idiot. Work fo food, be a scab, jump sen. lists, jump commands, boy you are a real asset to this comunity. People like you make me sick.

[Ignition Override]

Brad 737 had some interesting points, described in a fairly objective manner, without name-calling.

He described the situation in a detached, comprehensive style.

Hey gang: what if COMAIR flight attendants or mechanics had gone on strike? Even a month would have been a severe hardship for everyone else. Are pilots the only US airline employees who have ever gone on strike? I never worked at COMAIR, and therefore can't quite understand how the pilots felt when they decided to strike, whether they ignored advice from national about possible bad timing or not. But knowing how the FAA rarely comes to the defense of pilots who are forced to operate with the minimum FAR rest/duty rules, even flagrant company violations of such rules, pilot anger is very easy to sympathize with, knowing how easily passenger safety can be compromised.

Just a coincidence that the FAA adopted Reserve Pilot rest regulations (overdue for decades)just after the MD-80 tragedy in Little Rock, when the pilots had been at the end of a long duty period without a scheduled rest period?


Maybe our president decided not to invoke a Pres. Emer. Board in order to settle COMAIR's crisis, due to alleged lobbying and financial contributions (baksheesh) from the Air Trans Assoc., Regional A. Assoc.(the airline mgmt unions) and "ladies/gentlemen (plus or minus a former A-4 pilot)" on a particular Congressional/Senate committee

The Bush Sr. family has been friends of the Frank Lorenzo family for years, but there can be no possible connection between this well-known fact and our President's attitudes toward labor, i.e. anyone who needs more than five hours sleep before a 13-hour duty day flying jets must be a malcontent...

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 June 2001).]

[Ignition Override]

Not to "hog" space on Pprune, but what do passengers actually think of pilots who are confronted with the demand to fly two very long days, carrying their "delicate pink bodies" through or around any weather problems with very limited fuel reserves, and onto some short runways at 140 mph, with only seven hours in a quiet or noisy hotel, maybe a bit less?

Do any laymen passengers read these topics, where rest/duty rules: safety, can be (as now seem to be the case at COMAIR) a more contentious issue that tentative salaries/benefits?

[ironbutt57]

"baksheesh" good word igoverride..know where you've been before...anyway the problem with faa rest requirements has been a huge one that has been abused by airlines large and small...i myself olmost lost a job over refusing to operte a flight because of fatigue...something the regs require me to do...company's response along the lines of "if you cannot operate to the limit of the regulations...then you are unfit to fly here" so i agree pilots are under CONSTANT pressure, and consequently quite often operate an aircraft when excessively tired...this has always amazed me that again alpo has until recently never forced the issue...if there was ever a good reason to strike these regulations are it...maybe a series of nationwide 24 hr strikes would open some eyes...or each and every pilot who just worked a ridiculous but legal bid pattern should refuse to fly when tired...solidarity is no problem when it comes to pay issues..let's hope it's not the demise of comair...looks like alpo has sold them down the river...who's next?

[XL5]

411A has shared some opinions with us, surely as valid as any others but seen from a certain perspective. Perspectives though are wonderful things as they can be shifted, and moving this one only a little paints a different picture.

The empty suits comprising the management of Comair were given a very loud and clear warning shot across the bow by the passage of a near unanimous strike vote by 1300 pilots. Here was a company making money employing many people in a non flight crew capacity, their only crimes being those of showing loyalty to the company and placing faith in the leadership of the suits. Was it therefore not incumbent upon the suits for the good of the company and the welfare of those in its employ to acknowledge that the days of underpaying and overworking the pilot group were now over? With the pilots refusing to play along the game was up, time for the suits to put away their agenda of self serving greed and address the welfare concerns of all employees by paying the pilots an industry standard wage under industry standard working conditions. Shame on the suits.

[DownIn3Green]

XL5,

I agree the suits are empty, however, (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) the issue as I understand it is not pay. Comair came up with the goods there. The sticking points were retirement benefits (or lack thereof) and work rules.

Don't know much about retirement, as I don't get one where I work (self funded, just like my health insurance) but the work rules are a serious issue.

At a bottom feeder 121 outfit where I worked a few years ago (think S. Fla with call sign Panther) an F/O was pressured into taking a trip he felt was illegal according to the FAR's. After he succumbed to pressure from the crew scheduler (who held our paychecks in his hands) and took the trip, the same scheduler called the Feds and "self-disclosed" this violation of the FAR's so as not to get the company a violation.

Now that sucks big time.

If Comair wants to work it's pilots right up to the limits of the FAR's, an unintential violation is not only possible, but probable.

[Wino]

Now you got it!

I have been talking to the newhires at my airline (many of which worked for Comair till recently).

The TA that was voted down did away with virtually all work rules that were in place. That is how they got the higher dollar numbers btw. There was virtually no limit on what the company could force you to fly.

As this strike has been about work rules and retirement all along, the TA was a non starter and was simply put out for public comsumption. The vote btw went more than 10 to 1 against it. The 1 was made up predominantly of newhires who didn't know any better and were only looking at Comair as a stepping stone.

Nowhere has there been a demand for integration of the seniority lists in this strike by the Comair pilots. That was put out by the Delta Management to make it look like the Comair pilots are striking for seniority number at Delta which is not true and actually against what many of the more senior comair pilots want. (They just want to stay in their house at Cincy and don't want the risk of being bumped out by a more senior mainline pilot).

The constant uninformed insults hurled by 411 and 757 are just abnoxious and counter productive.

Cheers
Wino

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;Nowhere has there been a demand for integration of the seniority lists in this strike by the Comair pilots.&lt;&lt;

No, but the Comair pilots (along with the other Delta commuters) did sue to force their way onto the mainline seniority list last year. It didn't work but it did cause a little bad blood between Comair's pilots and the RD's that has come back to haunt them in their hour of need.

[Brad737]

Correct, the seniority integration issue predated the strike but it was indicative of the leadership's agenda. These guys are really shootin' for the moon. As I said before, timing is everything and now is not the time. To their credit though, the issue has at least seen the light of day now, especially with the proliferation of wholly owned subsidaries today. Who knows what the future will hold.
As to the "empty greedy suits" at Comair, I think this goes a little deeper than that. I'll bet Leo (DAL CEO) is getting pressure from the ATA (the big boys club) to hold the line with the commuter lot, lest American Eagle, ASA, or others get uppity.

[Elliot Moose]

Just heard a rumour about some (I heard 3) of Comair's folks giving up on strike pay and going to work for Eurowings on contract during the strike. Any truth to the story that they were fired?
What do the rest of their brothers think about that show of solidarity?

------------------
Elliot Moose is on the Loose!

[Wino]

There is nothing wrong with leaving an airline during a strike and heading for greener pastures, as long as you aren't receiving strike benefits at the same time.

To some degree it further's the union's cause as those pilots will have to be completely replaced rather than requalified which is a much quicker process, thereby further increasing the cost to management of the strike.

Why would the rank and file possibly object to a member finding employment elsewhere?

Cheers
Wino

[411A]

Sticking together to the end....???! :rolleyes:

[Ignition Override]

Come on now, some of you folks always blame ALPA national for the decisions made by a given airlines' internal (MEC) leadership. Are the decisions at a given carrier not made by local pilots, whether or not we, as outsiders, choose to second-guess the wisdom of their internal decisions? Whether other pilots generally like ALPA (warts and all) or hate it, I am very slow in trying to comprehend what we can replace it with. All of us would prefer that all airlines not just appreciate but comprehend our jobs and responsibilities while we are in our "hot seat", but we should not deceive ourselves. Using major inaccuracies or very broad stereotypes to attack ALPA's present representation problems doesn't bother me one bit at all (I don't even care if you attack the old planes I fly-only planes full of microchips seem to arouse strong defensive mentalities in their "systems operators"), but it just baffles me what our other choices are for pilot representation.

It just doesn't appear to me that such tarring of national ALPA with the same brush is very valid, other than out of bias, or personal revenge for something. If such tarring is valid, then please explain the connection, i.e. that national ALPA failed to advise the COMAIR MEC that the timing and Presidential Executive Branch "sympathies" (i.e. strongly anti-labor) created dangerous turf on which to attack the enemy? I was not with Eastern, Pan Am or any other larger carrier which went under, but have read about the lobbying which the ATA and RAA have, in order to influence Washington politicians (maybe cabinet-level and above...?). Go to old Aviation Weeks from the mid 80s thru early 90s and find out which Texas-based company various federal judges (from the DOT?) went to after critical decisions were made concerning the most demonic airline "cannibal" and his ruthless gutting of various airline operations, all with the blessings of the US Exec. and much of the Leg. branches.

Since when did national ALPA (which has yet to encounter competition from any sizeable US pilot union: there is no such association) dictate to each pilot Master Exec. Council how it should execute decisions? I've acknowledged on other topics how imperfect the assoc. is, but it is the ONLY pilot organization with any strength which we have, warts and all (i.e. allowing CO and FEDEX into the group, but ironically, earlier, one of the largest four US major airlines, many of whose pilots had belonged many years to ALPA, had quite a fraction of pilots who did not even belong to ALPA-see where it got them on their previous scope clause, or lack thereof. Some of them now look down on other US pilot groups who had strong solidarity long before they even experienced this novel status).

If ALPA's function consists of such a rigid vertical dictatorship, it is news to me. Come on, I challenge some of you to attempt to filter out the personal or professional bias and explain how such a very large organization can operate without any contradictions or politics, while representing pilots at US regional, national and major airlines, both pax and cargo. Like the airline management unions, the ATA and RAA, ALPA too must lobby Congress in order to be heard and seen.

How much distance is required to steer a US aircraft carrier into a 180 degree turn? Nobody can expect them to turn like a destroyer: but can not carriers launch many more aircraft and weapons toward both strategic and tactical targets?

This church service is dismissed: free lemonade and chocolate chip cookies in the reception room.


[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 08 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 09 June 2001).]

[DownIn3Green]

ALPO National sure dictated to the EAL MEC how to execute itself (oops, sorry, I meant execute it's decisions).

That was why the EAL MEC Chairman was recalled after local made the decision to return to work in Aug 89.

[Wino]

Down in 3 green

WRONG! You either know nothing about the structure of a union or else (and I think this is more likely) are deliberately distorting the structure to suit your ALPA bashing.

A specific airline is composed of an MEC which is made up of LECs. LECs elect the MEC and can get together to recall the MEC or it can be done at a grass roots level across the entire airline.

An MEC cannot be recalled by national. Only by the rank and file members of the Local.

But continue to Demonize ALPA all you want,unjustly and unfairly, but everyone sees through you. ALPA has been defending the profession since before you are born and is the only reason that world wide airline salaries are higher than a bus driver.

Cheers
Wino



[This message has been edited by Wino (edited 08 June 2001).]

[Huck]

I was closely involved with the negotiations of an ALPA regional carrier a few years ago.

Haven't heard for sure, but I'd bet good money that ALPA national wanted the Comair pilots to accept the mediated offer.

In my old carrier's case, ALPA national wanted us to settle for much less than we finally got - after voting down Maggie Jacobsen's "compromise" (contrary to news reports, this is not the first time she has offered a NMB-written compromise contract).

Randy Babbitt personally told me we were asking for too much. This was for a contract with a top RJ rate of $65 / hour!

What is happening at Comair is being driven by the Comair pilots, with their MEC in the lead, and line pilots following in full support. ALPA national is probably just paying the lawyer bills and praying for it all to be over.