Working a day off in EK [Archive]

Uplink

21st Oct 2004, 11:07

No pilot would revert to tactics such as warning is suggesting. We are all a little more grown up than that.

The proof to all of this is not whether people resign, complain or work to rule. The proof will be whether people will join or want to join and help to expand the company. You cant moan or complain, well you can but it does not get anywhere and you all know that as well as I do. The company can only expand if they can recruit pilots. If no pilots want to come, then the pay structure and package will have to be reviewed again. We have alot of aircraft coming in the next few years, so just sit back and wait. There are not that many pilots out there, especially those who want to come to the UAE. I say the UAE because Etihad now will have a share, not only in the market, but also in pilot recruitment. We are all mercenaries at the end of the day and we go where the money is. Etihad are not getting the pilots they need and neither is Emirates. The package will have to change for both companies. Whoever pays the most will get the pilots, it is that simple.

In this part of the world if you have been here any amount of time, you soon come to realise that complaining and moaning will get you absolutely nowhere. Using tactics as warning suggested will just get you fired. So just sit back and wait a while it will all change for our benefit. You signed the contract to join the company which means you accepted what was offered at the time. The company will not change the package unless it has too. This will happen at the speed of a dripping tap. I have dealt with unions and management before and know that things do not happen quickly. It only happens when it needs to.

As to taxing slowly, configuring early etc. The only people who loose out are us, as our profit share will take a knock, which means ultimately our pay packets take a knock. The days of big pay in the major airlines is all but over. Companies are governed by bean counters now. It is the same the world over. I would rather be in an expanding company and have a job than in one where I am about to loose my job. Look at this time towards the american market. American and United are not in the best of conditions.

As to working and only having 4 days off, I cant see it myself. There are still laws which govern the industry ref CAP 371 and our FTL. Go and work in the charter world in the UK and tell me then if you are working hard or not. Our rosters are stable and we at least get a choice of a sort as to what we do.

It doesnt really matter where we go in the industry there is always room for better pay and conditions. I am still earning less than I was in my last company and that is several years on. I do however have a better standard of living. It is my choice to stay here. We have been given a small pay review of a sort. Take it as it is not open for negotiation. If they they need to give more they will but only if they have to. At least we all get paid for the heavy crew flts to New York and Australia. They could have said not to that.

So I dont think I am being hard on warning14. I have been in aviation a very long time and know that you have a choice to stay or go. They call the shots as there is no union here or will there ever be. Unions never really worked anyway. They were merely a means of trade off with the management. They are like politicians, they will will give you one thing but you have to concede something else. In Australia that ended up being jobs and careers......... I guess that one has been done to death. !!

145qrh

21st Oct 2004, 14:52

Quite right Birdy.

EK pilots war cry .....BOHICA..

Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

bound_for_dubai

21st Oct 2004, 15:34

Together we stand , divided we fall

....."hello?" (echos)

LMAO, another Brit trying to take over the world. Although his plan sounds like a perfect revenge, its something I would only try if I was desperate to leave and had better opportunities elsewhere.:hmm:

I have to say I really doubt anyone would fly with warning 14 because they want to keep their jobs and feed their families. I can see this guy getting reported by a CAPT or FO and getting sent home on the next BA flight out. Damn, worse than I am :E

BFD

donpizmeov

21st Oct 2004, 17:56

Bound for Dubai...get back to making those kraft dinners will ya. Don't you youngens know it is rude to interupt grown ups when they are talking.!!! Warning will probably be the chief pilot here by the time you get an ATP.

Major problem I have with the latest pay cut, is that reserve days(amoungst almost everything else) are now free to the company. I just hope we do not now have to put up with rosters of mid 80s block time, min days off and the rest as reserve. Will wait and see I guess.

It is about time that the trainer package was taken care of. I hope it is enough.

I wonder what pay cuts the rest of the company will have to put up with....ooops what was I thinking!!!
Don

bound_for_dubai

21st Oct 2004, 18:04

LOL, always a smart @ss in the group, Don is not only the smartest but the funniest. Kraft Dinner? LOL!!! Man you must think I'm really poor.

As for Warning being the chief pilot at EK, I really hope so, but than again what would the airline turn into? A bunch of whiners wanting more money and freedom. I could be wrong.... but I doubt it!

If you have run out of tissue papers Don let me know, I'll FedEx a carton over.

... Kraft dinner LOL!!! :ok:

BFD

donpizmeov

21st Oct 2004, 18:41

Bound for Dubai wrote:

"Sorry to tell you guys, but your wrong, I don't work at a pilot shop I work night shift at Kraft Canada Bakery. I pay for my own flying because the money I make there is pretty good and can afford to fly..."

hence I thought you should be at work making those Kraft dinners......do try and keep up.

puff m'call

21st Oct 2004, 18:45

Warning 14 is right, it's a piss take, for instance, deadheading not counting towards productivity pay!!! sorry but you are on duty and should be rewarded accordingly.

Call out pay, well it's a start I suppose.

As a captain in my last airline the call out pay was £350, some others are around £500, so don't even bother to phone bacause the answer is NO. they will have to go much further before people start to give up hard earned days off. F/o's don't even bother.

Trainers, Good at last you are being payed for the qualification.

Safe flying, keeep fighting!!!!!

bound_for_dubai

21st Oct 2004, 18:52

Oh LOL! Yes well Its Kraft BAKERY! We make biscuits, you know Teddy Grams, Chips a hoy, and yes we even make Tea biscuits... imagine that! Thats why I like Don, he's got character LOL!

BFD

Quod Boy

21st Oct 2004, 19:17

Been here a long time,and Gulfa,Uplink,Dropp,Emma,people like you,allow this once good job to be continually eroded,because of your attitude of apeasement,and acceptance,you tacitly approve the scandal that is going on,no doubt you all aspire to the second floor at EOC,one day and a car parking spot.We all know,and see people like you,you do none of us any favours.

No one is suggesting,harmful damaging action is acceptable,but take it easy on 14,he at least raises valid points,again,not one pilot,was consulted prior to implementation.So what do we do,what can we do?Nothing?Well we could all try to represent ourselves,by writing,asking for a meeting,several hundred letters would get noticed,that something clearly isnt right,But I suspect,people like you will do,exactly nothing,just wait for others with some guts to at least try,and challenge,what would in many airlines,be unacceptable.

We are being railroaded,with no representation,and that simply is not professional,nor fair,but it is a fact of life here,as you all so rightly acknowledge.Its a paycut,pure and simple,except,for junior TRIs who will gain.There is no more money,its been split up differently,thats all.

As for payrise,profit share,being paid for 3 crew to JFK,not blocking 4 days in a row,Uplink,youre dreaming,manual inserts will occur as reqd,but no doubt that wont pose a problem,for people like you,no doubt 2 crew to PER,JFK,KIX would be fine by you too.

It was an excellent job,run by professional,people with some integrity,and decency,thats fast disappearing.

Your collective apathy,will lead us all further into the inevitable,'just another job",just a number,just a driver,and we all know where that leads.Think of that,when youre doing a week of reserve,for no credit,after deadheading,around the network for no credit,prior to taking your leave for no credit,to come back to work huge hours,in whats left of the month,for strangely enough,no overtime.

And you all think thats just fine.?Wake up.

Sad day for us all.QB

sluggums

22nd Oct 2004, 04:24

What made me chuckle was our esteemed EVPFO saying, "thankyou for your cooperation" at the bottom of the shafting notice, interesting use of the word 'cooperation':mad: :* :suspect:

Kamelchaser

22nd Oct 2004, 05:20

Before we all head off and slit our wrists, or worst still rent a one bedroom flat in Karama because we can't afford anything else, it might be interesting to have a look at our pay over the last few months, and compare old with new pay schemes.

After hours of exhaustive scientific study, I looked at the differences for my productivity pay this year (junior Captain);

Jan (old scheme) Zero; (new scheme) 800dhs
Feb (old) Zero; (new) 2800dhs
Mar (old) 3620dhs

Kamelchaser

22nd Oct 2004, 06:37

Sorry, pushed submit button somehow...new to this (and have always had a problem with premature entering)

Anyway, as I was saying..

Productivity pay Old / New

Jan nil / nil
Feb 680 / 2800
Mar 3620 / 5372
Apr 200 / Nil
May 6220 / 7800
Jun nil / nil
Jul 6320 / 5800
Aug 1320 / 3600

Totals; Old scheme 18360 dhs
New Scheme 26,172 dhs

Seems under the new scheme I'd be better of by 7,812dhs over an eight month period (based purely on hours flown). I'm interested to know if anybody else has done the figures. Are my numbers right, or should I stick to my day job and give up statistical analysis? If they're right, don't tell EVPFO as I don't think this is the intention of the new scheme.

Appears you'd lose when taking leave,or doing your six monthly sim, but gain if doing purely flying (hint...sore throat coming on if they ask you to position somewhere).

Also not sure the intention is to work you 80 hrs after two weeks leave. The first para of the FCN states "the existing credit based system, which is used to ensure a fair distribution of work will be retained, but will only be used for rostering purposes".....but only time will tell I guess

BigGeordie

22nd Oct 2004, 09:16

Kamelchaser,

I think your maths is correct as it seems to work out roughly the same for me, but with smaller numbers (junior F/O). Only individuals can decide if it is worth working days off for what is on offer but the fact the company have to pay us to come in on a day off should ensure more roster stability. Having said that I can see a roster coming which has the minimum 8 days off (but not more than four in a row!), 100 block hours and the rest filled up with standbys which will greatly affect our lifestyle but not cost the company anything if they don't use us. Maybe I'm just being cynical but only time will tell.

donpizmeov

22nd Oct 2004, 10:58

You have to also compare the right figures. I do not think you get the 3.5hr pay for a MCT (for example) now......only Sched block time. Will not effect a lot of flights, but it will hurt in the bottom bid groups. Have had a look and the results for me are mixed..as I have had a few operate one way, dead head home, PPC and leave things that have tilted the balance to the old system.
If the rostering stays the same..we may be in front....but there is some warning of things being to good to be true. I see a compulsion to stop guys getting too many days off, and the fact that reserve is free a big worry.
Once heard a fella say he loved this job so much he would do it for free...well he has got part of that wish, as his PPC now is.
We will not know the full impact of this pay cut until we see how they use these rules when making the rosters.
Don

Quod Boy

22nd Oct 2004, 11:18

Kamel Chaser,Big Geordie,have just compared last month roster,under present system,(it was top bid),including my PPC,and 3 stby,not called,1 dead head.10 hrs overtime,total.

Apply,the new system,to the SAME roster,strangely NIL overtime,thats,erm 4000 Dhs,gone in a puff of sand.

Can anyone explain that?

Smoke and mirrors?Creative accounting?Im "co-operating",they must be laughing their socks off,at this latest conjuring trick.

Safe flying to all.

PFM. Quod Boy.

sluggums

22nd Oct 2004, 12:52

Not including Deadheading towards pay credits is a crime

Statorblade

22nd Oct 2004, 16:03

I give up - what is an FCN ? :confused:

Morwheus

22nd Oct 2004, 17:45

Sounds to me like someone is after the "bright ideas'' award all for them selves....!:ok

Watch for the winners of the 2004 bright idea....... in the EK mag to see who made up this huge cost cutting shafting:cool:

I'm with the stick it to the company routine....they certainly have no trouble sticking it us...:E

Cheers Morph

Cerberus

22nd Oct 2004, 18:15

Its Paul who got robbed to pay Peter (who was then mugged)!! Some of the lucky junior TRIs might be better off. Line pilots and anyone carrying out an extra duty outside the training department will be significantly worse off. Excuse me if my numbers below are not totally accurate but I don't think they are far off.

At first sight, it sees to me that junior TRIs will be better off if they carry out the 12 rostered training duties in a month. They may even have a chance of overtime if they are worked hard. Nice Deal!! Maybe....

But on the other foot a CRM mate / Recruiter will earn about the same as before and have no chance of overtime. If they did 2 weeks work recruiting, they would have to do 106 hrs credit (78 block) before making any overtime. But...if they didn't recruit they would get paid the same amount of cash if they did one days extra work and flew to Istanbul. Not such a nice deal... seems the incentive to work in the office is now non-existant.

Overall though, if you have say 42 days leave, 10 training days, 30 hrs dead heading and 10 standbys/year. Under the old system that would have added up to about 205 hrs of credit. The reduction in overtime trigger off-sets about 76 hrs. So every pilot loses about 130hrs of potential overtime/year i.e. 52k/yr for Captains and 37k for F/Os.

So maybe the TRIs won't be better off after all. Training pay adds up to 60k per year which for a guy on about 28k/month would be about 20k or so more than now, but you would have to do an extra 11hrs/ month or 4300/month for free before getting overtime.

Even the call out pay is a dicey, it says that you get it if you work a day off and don't get given another day off. Lets say that you have a great flight, that you want to do. You do the company a favour by working an off day and then to avoid the call out payment they cancel the great flight for you and give it to a mate on reserve (who is short of block time).

It isn't cost neutral at all. The company has increased the Training pay of a proportion of the trainers (though the more senior will lose out) and saved a hell of a lot of cash. Interestingly, for overtime, if you are the sort of guy that takes 28 days leave straight in one month, you will be better off than the mate that takes 4 days off here and there. Does that hurt the commuters?!?

So overall, a brilliant strategy by management. The company saves money and we all work harder. BG and KC, individuals may be better off in the short term but it seems that the pilot group contract has just taken about a 15% pay cut for the same amount of work. Correct me if I am wrong!!

Cerberus:zzz:

P.S Stator - Flight Crew Notice

SecurID

22nd Oct 2004, 19:11

SO, fancy figure shuffling has given us a 15% pay cut, as well as being rostered to do more flying than ever. So what are we going to do about it? Has the rest of the company been given a pseudo 15% pay cut? Are we going to do anything?

Of course not, and that is why they can do whatever they want. We are all tied in to a minimum of seven years to get full benefits from the provident scheme. Kids in schools, villas and apartments that have now been purchased, car loans, etc. etc. These are just a few of the reasons why so many of us cannot contemplate leaving. As well as the minor fact that there is nowhere to go to. The industry is not exactly swinging rapidly upwards and won't do for a long time when oil is now $55 a barrel!

So, what to do? Just enjoy the sunshine I guess, but even that dissappeared today when it clouded over! Yes, my glass is half empty. :\

crapflying

23rd Oct 2004, 06:28

I am new to this forum, as I have joined Emirates as a DEC early this year.
It is interesting to see attitudes in an airline, and how everyone thinks within the box and only. I have been given the FIFO briefing and all the other little bits and pieces that come with the job in Emirates.
First of all let me say that I have a full pension from my previous airline, I have flown all the birds that come with a big national carrier, and I am here in Dubai until sixty to play golf and enjoy the beach. I have no desire to get involved in saving the world of aviation, in teaching anyone how to fly a visual approach, nor to pass on any of my great experiences from a previous life in a better airline under better times. I am here to have fun, and fun it has been but I can say that because I have financial security, and lots of assets to fall back on.
You guys are missing the big picture, and are involved in todays news, and not tomorrows.... The pay increse for Instructors is normal because they are needed today to continue the expansion, and they know that there will be people jumping to get the extra 5000 a month plus flight pay.
What you should be looking at, is how do we stop this erosion of t&cs.
To expect people who have not joined the airline to fight your battle is naive to say the least.... You have three solutions: 1. Do nothing, it might get better because we are honourable people who are professional, and they must see that. 2. Vote with your feet. We will leave and find something different and maybe better. 3. Do something. Get organized since unions are not allowed During golf, hokey, sailing come up with plans, and stick to them. United only can you achieve things.
It has never been easy in avaition, and my generation did not have it easy. We did not get things done in my airline because we negotiated better, or because we told our management we did not agree with them, and as professional pilots we expected more. We fought, we fought hard, and if any of you say well look were those airlines are today, I will say back, were look were I am today and my colleagues. We have financial security to play around now, and although I never got to take my plane home and park it outside my house for my neighbours to see what an important person I was, I have a bank account to prove it.
I hope you see the writing on the wall, and realize that it does not matter what you fly, or who you fly for, but how easy your job was and how much money you have in the bank
Cheers

ernestkgann

23rd Oct 2004, 08:18

United we will never be mr crap. You, for example, will do nothing to jeapordise your golf game, additional retirement dollars and your exotic villa while your less fortunate colleagues battle to get to an equivalent point in their lives. You have your great lifestyle to protect, another guy has no where else to go and can't afford to lose his job and therein lies the companies advantage. We can never be united for these reasons. Even your grammar indicates that you don't consider yourself to be part of 'our' problem when you refer to yourself and us as being different.
Thanks for the advice though, I'm sure you flew a great visual approach in your day and fought all the good battles when it was in your interest.

Shake

23rd Oct 2004, 08:47

Much as I hate the patronising tone of CF above, he does make a valid point in that we will, however unwelcome it may be, have to fight to get anything out of EK. What he fails to mention is that the arena he fought in had rules and legislation based in a democracy and not an enviroment of 'make it up as you go along to suit the company' in a dictatorship. Whilst I don't underestimate the fight he may have been a part of, they used gloves. What he fails to mention is that once he fought his battle, he left his collegues who followed to fight on their own. What he fails to see is that as a DEC he is also part of the problem.

We have no respect from the company as we have always 'cooperated' with whatever they see fit to impliment. We are successfully divided, weakened by threats of dismissle and job insecurity...perfect, no Vaseline required.

To me it is a question of pride; pride in my profession and all the hard work I have put into it and whilst pride doesn't pay the bills, surely there must be a point where enough is enough?

There are things we could do. Some will think that they are ironically unprofessional, but the truth is that if we do not get our own house in order we will watch the T&Cs wear away even more. As for our main incentive to behave in anticipation of the profit share; we will be made to pay for the hike in oil, fog, increasing training costs etc. so how much do you think it'll be worth?

What can we do? We can start by voicing our opinions here and get the message out about what is going on here to potential new recruits. We could boycott any pilots meetings which are everything but 'open forum'. We could organise a group 'offshore' and attempt to affiliate with an organisation which could offer help and legal advice...just some thoughts.

It is such a shame that we are being treated with the contempt that we are, I sincerely hope that the tide will turn one day soon.

sluggums

23rd Oct 2004, 09:39

I for one am very f****d off with this situation, let's face it a lot of people come here because there are reasons to come here, better pay, better rosters etc.

What the company don't realise is that these reasons are slowly being removed, not that the local management care a jot they have different T&C's to us anyway.

I know it's been said many times but I do think that people will seriously start looking else where, I for one am considering going home.

"If I'm going to get screwed around I'd rather be screwed around at home" a great man once said....

Rant over=slightly lower blood T's & P's.
:hmm:

ps Dear Mr EVPFO can you explain how you said at the pilots meeting that if you changed to pilots t&c you would have to change everybody elses, yet I'm sure this hasn't happened this time.

crapflying

23rd Oct 2004, 10:00

Gentlemen,
I do apologise if I came across as patronizing, it is not my intention. I still stand by my words, that it is not my problem because Emirates is not my career airline. It is my last stop before I only play golf. However, if required I will stand united with my collegues because it is for a just cause.
What I want to bring into this forum, is that we all have choices, and we all have things to lose and gain, but it is not management's fault in the abstract that takes away t&cs. It is our own inaction, or the fact that we say "well it is not so bad, it still is better than other places". I have worked with management before, and I know how they see us, and some times they are right. They see us as "big boys playing with big toys", and when they change the rules on us we cry and behave like spoiled children, but then we get over it and we say "Hey I still have my big toy and maybe if I do nothing they will leave me alone". Management is also smart in dividing us because they give to some of the boys extra playing money and time, and it is the same playtime and play money they take away from others.
What do we do then we say to the other smaller boys "Hey when you climb the ladder and get to where I am you will enjoy the benefits I have now" Guess what, this is the beginning of the end, because now the boys are divided, and everyones play time and money is in jeoperdy because those who lost it do not want to help those who got it, and those who got it, have no one to support them, so it is a vicious cycle.
We are all smart here, and if we want to find ways to improve our t&cs we can, and we do not have to wait for the market to dry up of pilots so no one applies, and then they will have to put the money up, and we do not need to have a formal union to get things done either...
We are not in the Airforce doing what is required of us by our country, dealing with honourable superiors who have come up the ranks and we therefore can expect a fair and honourable treatment.
We are working for a business organization, and we are just numbers, and just as big numbers add up for management to cut things because it makes a big difference so does it alslo work the other way aswell.
If the attitude we have, that this is all we can get ,and we do not deserve more, then in a free economy that is all we will get. We are professionals, and as such we need to negotiate our t&cs and not expect hand outs.
If you think, that Santa will come to town, or that great ol Maurice will get generous one of these days, and see what a great loving caring fun bunch of people we are and give us a rise because that would be just great, then welcome to the future of more cuts, and higher productivity with less money per hour, and maybe if we are lucky more total pay for some of the boys with big toys.
Cheers

Morwheus

23rd Oct 2004, 11:19

Guys some of this I agree with and some of it I dont....howeverI am a F/o and am getting close to my three years.....if the conditions here continue to decline then command or not I am out of here...!...Why... because its not the contract I accepted when I joined .........and Emirates seemed determined to push us all to see where the breaking point is. My advise to you all is look at contract web sites ..if you are like me and dont have any children school, and can leave at will, rather than be trapped into EK way of life....... then go now while you can.

If the future of the EK ...ie.the F/O's just pack up and leave once the bond is clear to persue better options .....it might just send the correct message to Management.

Let them take on more DEC's and let them loose the experience base they are so proud of!!!! or are they? it appears not! If my conditions continue to erode as they seem to be.... ...there will be no complaining ..........no saying how unhappy I am .........its just going to be ........ciao from me!!!!!! and thats for sure.

Morph:ok:

Quod Boy

23rd Oct 2004, 11:59

Crapflyer.

You have a sound argument,however,you have two distinct and essential advantages:-

1)You fought,your corner,I feel with a "collective body" of fellow pilots,that had some form of dialogue,with the company.?

2)You already have financial security.

The vast majority,here,have no financial security,and we cannot be represented,collectively,for fear of any movenment that way,being seen as hostile or subversive.

Neither of which are intended,or desired,IMHO.No one truly wants hostility,I certainly dont,but I would value the opportunity to talk/or at least be consulted,before my working life is altered.

Its a very unfortunate situation,those of us who are not in your very fortunate position,to contemplate.

The really sad part is,EK have some superb talent,and life at EK could be so very good,with very little being done,to achieve that,again.IMHO.

I think EK has all the ingredients to be a great job,Im saddened,that the situation here is turning the way it is.
QB

puff m'call

23rd Oct 2004, 12:02

I couldn't agree more, bollocks to this, I for one have had about as much of this crap and sh1t management I can take, the same happened in my last company so I left and the same goes for here.

You can stick the FOM where the sun must defintely don't shine!!!!

so it's off to the job market, good luck guys.:ok:

crapflying

23rd Oct 2004, 12:23

Gentlemen,
I do agree that I was fortunate enough to be at home flying for the national carrier, and we did have a union to back us up.
What I want to pass on to you, is that there is no greener grass on the other side, and even if it looks greener it is probably because of more s..t on the ground to make it look so. Leaving for other pastures is not the way either. It is so easy to unite in one cause, being our wellbeing, our pockets, our retirement. No one will go away eating Emirates memmories, and A380, or A340s. My chilrden and now my grand children can expect some help from me, because we looked after our pockets collectively, and not individualy.
There are things pilots can do at Emirates even with no Union. Do not accept training positions, TCE, TCI, CRM etc. positions. Do not go forward for Recruitment positions. When they ask you why, you do not have to be forthcoming, state the obvious. You are quite happy to fly the line as a normal pilot, and only if the total package improves, will you consider more responsibilities. You believe that it is an enourmous responsibility to go forward and you need not just a better individual package(Training, Examiner), but a total package. As long as guys think they can get ahead and do a TCE, or a TCI and then leave, there is no future for anyone in Emirates. Realistically, no one will leave, and those who will, they will be doing at a great expense to seniority, family relocation, and a new start with different **** different place. The only way to win is to be steadfast and fight. Fighting is not just yelling and screaming or burning fuel. Fighting means respecting your colleagues and not accepting positions which are required by Emirates to continue its ambitious expansion. Make all pilots a vital part of the airline, and show management that we are united, and we are needed, not just for the day to day operation, but because if we do not agree to do training, and if we do not agree to do recruiting, then they will expand their aircraft on the apron.
Just so that must of you know the going rate for 777 trainers around the world, a six month contract goes for about 30000 US $ a month. I cannot see Emirates getting many of them...
Cheers
To those FOs willing to leave, I say do not waste your energy for the wrong cause, put it to work here were it matters most for you...

dunerider

23rd Oct 2004, 13:42

Crapflyer,

Even though you did start off with your initial post offending most who read it, your last entry has put some credibility back into where you are coming from. The vast majority don't want to hear from a retired pilot operating in a democracy giving us advice about an environment which you have little experience of (that could be considered smug). All of your previous experience has little relevance to what happens here. You have no vested interest in this company, obviously, as you state clearly in your posts. However, you are correct that if no-one volunteers for extra duty then we would all be in a better position. Unfortunately there will be plenty of people who are not like minded who will still put their hands up.

Gulfa

23rd Oct 2004, 17:53

Quad Boy

I have no desire to ever get anywhere near the management office floor in EK.

Clearly warning 14 has !

I’ve cut and pasted his proposals below.
Do you honestly think, any professional aviator, is going to tolerate the majority of this B S coming from the guy in the other seat.

A few items are wholly reasonable and always have been.
The rest are P**S poor CRM and diabolical displays of professionalism.

Imagine: “ Direct Costa ” Negative !
Flap 2 Gear down at 30 miles
Shall we take an extra ton to Doh, No !

-have maintenance crew explain the ADD page ( sometimes things are vague)
- taxi very slow ( 10 kts max)
- do not take any direct routings
- configure very early, burn that gas baby...
- insure all aspect of the dispatch are explained by the red cap
- Call sick according the FOM policy ( unfit to fly)
- take company fuel and divert as required
- when tankering, take company fuel figures and uplift 200 Kgs in Doha
- don't ever ever ever work on days off ( f*ck the 560 or the 800 Dhs)

I entirely agree with the majority of postings here and think this new policy and the way it’s been introduced sucks.

But, if warning 14 and his mates think you can change things by this nonsense, better think again.

bravothree

23rd Oct 2004, 19:48

devil's advocate: has any of you stopped to think n put themselves in the the seats behind those desks at the EOC? They are measured by what costs they can cut (especially with the oil crisis we all know about). It is happening throughout the company!
Did any of you see HHs message regarding the year-to-date profit erossion? Check the in-house publication or talk to someone in finance.
Take heart, these changes are subject to review.

Hats off to CF above for the words of wisdom
(& I solemnly swear not to be in management)

Quod Boy

23rd Oct 2004, 20:17

Gulfa,your point taken,no offence,therefore intended.

Crap Flyer,valid reasoning,about declining positions,but if the post of TRI pays 5000 pcm,and the Line roster,degenerates,many will come forward,there is no association,therefore no unity,in public.

Those of us who came here,gave up good jobs,made commitments,and now to leave,its a big step,and that fact I feel is valid.

Were all trying to do what you have achieved,but you had certain advantages,that are simply non existant here,and whilst I have no axe to grind with DECs,as individuals,your presence is part of the rift,and fragmentation of the pilots.Everyone,is out for themselves,including you and your fellow DECs.

Obviously,EK management know this,and expoit it,now,but how will it end up in the long term,the treatment being meted out?
Not everyone,has the moral foresight you have,and many have come here,from less,open backgrounds,and will grab extra money at the expense of their colleagues.No question,and those who do are more than welcome.

It is classic divide and conquer.The line pilots will pay,long term for the improved life(for some) of the trainers.

I doubt there will be profit share,this year,but to introduce this pay "adjustment",at a time of expansion,and when people should be wanting to join EK,is completely baffling to me,I have met not one person,who flies in EK who sess this as anything other,than bad news.

With no credible,sensible non threatening response to offer,we are being punched up in the playground,minus our specs,with one hand tied behind our backs.

Unless I am missing something?Its put up,accept,or leave,and I didnt think that I for one would be facing that choice in EK.Never.

QB

145qrh

23rd Oct 2004, 20:18

Bravo 3.

I agree I would not like to be in the position , but those that are chose to be there, so dont waste sympathy on them.

The only point which I would make in reply is that the barstewards were plotting this long before the rise in oil price, it just happens that they can impose this under a different umbrella.

I suppose on the other hand if you are correct ,then as soon as the oil price drops below $40 a barrel we will get a whopping pay rise as the profits shoot up.............yeah right.

I would hazard a guess that the fuel surcharge that has been imposed more than covers the oil price rise .........$30 a sector I think ( 777 -300 = 434x$30 = most of the cost of the fuel)

nixisfix

23rd Oct 2004, 20:20

Crapflyer,

If, and I seriously doubt it, you are as financially independent as you say you are, what the heck are you doing here?
You have got some nerve to tell anybody NOT to put his hand up for extra income or job satisfaction or in your case "fun" while you have done exactly that. Enjoy the ride but please keep your advise...
nixisfix

Uplink

24th Oct 2004, 03:07

I have to say that I agree with many of the replies posted here about this thread. I still cannot endorse the actions that warning14 proposed. However I do agree that this "early christmas present" should have stayed under the tree.

One thing that no one has mentioned here is not what we have been given, as to why we have been given it. I say given as the word offer does not apply in EK. Interestingly enough the bullet points on the document have question marks against them. I guess that means "could change" As to the why; The company's immediate problem is the training dept. I am glad for the trainers getting a rise of a sort (metaphorically speaking!). Enough of them have resigned to make the company sit up and pay attention. Some very good guys sadly Many will argue that there are alot of issues the company need to address. If you look back to the meeting in December, the turnout was huge in this company's standard turnout history. Everyone waited with baited breath for the huge change of T & C's that was about to happen. It didnt of course. But did you really think it would. Remember the company only changes things when it has to. So back to the trainers. The company had to give them a rise of a sort. It is still not enough but then I am not a trainer and have no aspirations to be one. Hopefully it may coax a few to stay and even the odd one to come back. But as it stands not enough to change their standard of living.

It is however the standard of living which makes most trainers quit. There is just not enough of them o09out there to make a difference. The money may mean a few will join. But then I used to work with people who would work on a day off for free. The other immediate problem for the comapny is the price of oil. Oil prices from what I understand are a speculation as to what the supply/demand will be in months to come and not just now. On that note I think the price has not finished rising yet. I would say another 20% before it tops out. This will affect the world not just EK. I cant say I blame any company cost cutting to stay above water. In future days it may be something we could even be thankful for as our jobs could still be here for those that choose to stay.

In March 2005 we start taking stock of 1 aircraft a month for the next 7 years (I think) The next immediate problem will be getting people to fly these aircraft. If what the company has given us is enough to coax new people to join they will not have to alter anything else. No matter how much moaning we do it will not make a single difference.. Their job will be to keep the company alive. If they dont then 1100 pilots will be out of work .

Most of you have 2 options. Vote with your voice i.e. here or with your feet. Enough people from around the world (in aviation) read this forum and website. People naively base their career choices on what is written here. Many people aspiring to join EK will look here for guidance as whether to join or not. If I had based my choices on this rumour network then I would be a **** shoveller living in Hounslow with the other standard 15 indians trying to get a British passport.

So I say one more time. The company's immediate concern is not our T&C's. When aircraft start staying on the ground because there are not enough people to fly them, then things will change. But remember we will only get the bare minimum.

Now I am going back to bed...................

Dune

24th Oct 2004, 07:09

With all due respect to Dropp the Pilot, Emma Rate, Gulfa, Uplink et al I think you were very quick to post negative responses to Warning 14's post. While I too do not agree with some of the tactics suggested, I certainly give him full credit for having the balls to say enough is enough. Probably a bad analogy but you guys remind me of a woman who has been a victim of spousal abuse for years and years and when asked why she didn't do something about it she can't give an answer as the constant beatings have numbed her senses. I think the constant beatings the management has given us over the past years have dulled our senses and the response from Warning 14 attempted to bring us back into reality. Anyway, I digress.

To crapflying I do appreciate your comments and you do have some valid points but I have a difficult time taking advice from someone who has contributed to the problem (by way of you coming in as a DEC). This company was on the verge of having to increase our T&C's (due to a shortage of Captains and the continuing expansion) until your lot came around so in some respects you have contributed to the problem. Easy to tell others to forgo extra pay or position when you took advantage of it yourself?? Bottom line is the majority of pilots are whores and you are no different than the majority but I do appreciate your input none the less.

Anyway, my take on the new credit system is it can go two ways:

Version 1: We can take the simplistic and naive view as some have done on this thread that the only changes will be to Productivity pay and Appointment pay (taking away from productivity and giving to appointment; and in some cases actually resulting in a neutral to slight gain for the line pilots). However, I don't think any one of us is stupid enough to think it ends there, hence version 2:

Version 2: The existing credit based system will remain in place but only to fill each pilots monthly roster at the planning stage. It is the most efficient way to mathematically try to distribute an equal amount of work to each pilot (that is the reason why the credit based system was adopted in the first place). However, it will not in any respect be used to build final rosters, only to act as a start point to assign work.

The pairings will be built to maximize operational profitability at the expense of individuals and their families. Not that it was not being done already but there was a financial cost associated with inefficient scheduling; namely having to pay a deadheading crew credit for their time. This somewhat forced the planners to be prudent in designing pairings. Now that is gone and therefore expect many more pairings each month with flights one way/deadhead return as there is no cost to them to attempt to roster efficiently.

The way they will assign work will be to take the given productivity pay threshold for the given month and divide that by the number of pilots available. This of course will result in a significant amount of unassigned flying as we all know the policy at EK is to run the operation short of the necessary number of pilots (especially Captains) needed, hence the requirements to pay productivity pay in the past. (By the way, also bear in mind that the "productivity pay" for a 4 year Captain is only 76.84 dhs/hr in real increased wage payments to the company as the base rate of a 4 year Captain based on the old credit system would be approx 323.16 dhs/hr anyway).

Once the initial build is completed with all the various Flight time limitations accounted for (ie, your absolute minimum legal days off inserted which is anyone's guess given the complexity of the new limitations they have imposed) then the planners will be left with the spaces in each pilots roster where there is no flying assigned. As the minimum days off are now accounted for, they can simply insert reserve into each available space. Job done and the roster is published with each pilot having minimum days off, rostered hours right at the threshold and every other day as reserve.

Next is what to do with all that unassigned flying. Simple, at any given time probably 1/3 of the pilots in the company will now be on reserve (as stated above). So first look at the list of guys available on reserve and see if any of them is not rostered to the threshold yet. If you find someone, call him out for the trip. And if you can't find someone under the limit, simply call up Joe Blow and tell him he has been called out to fly XX trip. No need to pay "callout pay" as it is not a callout on a day off and if he fly’s over the threshold pay him the 400/280 dhs/hr. The callout pay is a red herring inserted to try to minimize the impact of the changes but I do not foresee it ever having to be used.

Bottom line is in my opinion this is the single most significant change in our T&C's since the introduction of the seniority list (which we know was already thrown into the toilet by virtue of the DEC's) and the development of the credit system. It will have a huge impact on the quality of life a pilot enjoys at EK, which is really the only thing left here to stay for given the lousy pay, increasing costs, poor management, etc.

Mistah Kurtz

24th Oct 2004, 07:11

ANY pilot who thinks that this is a postive move must have rocks in his head

The matter isn't helped by Kamelchaser comparing how much he earns in overtime now compared to a year ago...it's because you are WORKING HARDER, no mystery there

Recently it was announced that for FTL purposes only 2/3 to 3/4's of time on augmented operations was logable and countable towards your monthly limit. This move passed with remarkably little comment or outrage. Since we don't now get credit for deadheading how long before we don't get FULL credit hours for augmented operations....give it another six months at most

As regards how spineless we are as a workforce, someone went to alot of trouble to try and arrange legal coverage for the EK pilots for a paltry $230 a year, how many out of the 1200 odd pilots were interested .... 200, pathetic!

PS If you DO still want legal insurance scheme to go ahead for heavens sake email the EPC

propaganda

24th Oct 2004, 07:34

How is the EK recruitment drive going.....? The golden days are obviously over...:confused:

Gulfa

24th Oct 2004, 08:21

Here are a few points to enhance the thread.
1. Our new man at the head of flight Ops ( tcas ) is in a similar boat to crap flyer.
He’s done a decent enough time in BA to be fat dumb and happy, with a handsome crystallized pension and a few pennies to come from Her Majesty.
Plus he will have capitalized enormously from the UK property boom over the last 25 years.
He doesn’t need this job !
He’s not ready to retire either, he’s just got sick and tired of bashing his head against a wall built of reinforced concrete by BALPA.
He’s obviously a pilot far happier behind a desk than in a flight deck.
Here he can make proposals and changes with only a brief reference to his puppeteers in the offices above, and if it’s about saving money, there’ll give him instant approval.
He’s having a great time massaging his ego shackle free.
If he has to clear out his desk by 12 noon, as happened to his two predecessors he won’t give a damn, just home to the country house and a cool pint down the local pub.

2. The issue of unity referenced here as a means of mass pressure on flight Ops management.
Most of us are here because of circumstance rather than choice.
Unity is generally biased by patriotism. That’s not to say all BA pilots are British and all Air France are French, and I’m sure all the Ozzie pilots in 89 where not Australian but, the predominant numbers are and were compatriots living in the there motherland.
Under those conditions it’s much easier to make a big noise and unite !
Here are 50 + different nationalities, many from countries who’s economy, currency, political structure and aviation industry is shot to pieces.
We simply should not expect those guys to stand up make a noise and jeopardize there entire existence.
I think the majority of our workforce is in fact in this boat.

3. It’s interesting to see the guys making reference to old productivity verses new with very little difference.
Just remember, very little is steady state in this airline for very long, it’ll change again and again. And I don’t believe the skeptic’s who say “ always for the worst ”.
Instructor’s, don’t get carried away with your new found regular income. Pay per duty is only a couple of years old, and at the time was introduced as a money saving measure.

4. legal Insurance ? Very handy !
I insure my car fully comprehensive. Would I feel at ease if I were involved in a road fatality, Yeh Sure, it could be anything from a long prison spell, to go home and forget about it.
The jobs the same, It’s a lottery ! Insurance or no insurance, “ a whole different set of rules ”

Cheers guys, I’m not happy about our imposed new rules and regs, but I’m not in a fit of depression either.

Crazycanuk

24th Oct 2004, 13:45

:eek: Warning14 has sure got everyones attention, you all must agree to that. With his so called outlandish remarks he has accually started what appears to be a constructive dialog.:ok:

What will it lead to? We will probably read some things that might work if they were implimented. Ah ha, that will never happen. Human nature prevents this. No one is to blame because in the end will must all look after ourselves and our families. What should we do as a group, curse the DEC or the guy who wants to make a little extra by doing some training? No my friends you cannot blame someone for living his life the way he sees fit.

You can however, blame yourself! Put a mirror on the computer and you will see the guy responsible for all these cuts staring you in the eyes.

For those guys contemplating "furthering your carreers" think about that. As for me, I will state right now that I am not interested in any other position than the one I hold right now. I have my reasons. Try to guess what they are.:8

Crazy

Quod Boy

24th Oct 2004, 14:50

Airborne Ranger,not that many Afghani,workers in Satwa,not sure youre credible,or infact sound of mind,were all on a steep curve here.Its an EK forum.

Gulfa,me thinks,youre rather missing the point,the intention of Mr Kurtz was,to quite rightly highlight,just how apathetic(you included) we are as a group,and your response,about car insurance,in DXB,shows how you miss the point.Totally.

I sincerely hope you never run off the runway,in Khartoum,or Lagos,in heavy rain,in a AEROPLANE,unlike your car insurance in DXB,this legal offer was for lawyers in London,to get you out of jail,in an event,WORLDWIDE in an AEROPLANE.Fill the other half of your "full" glass,whilst you think on that.A missed opportunity.

To all,expect busier rosters,plenty deadheading,reduced time at home,and plenty time in a aluminium tube,and just when you think your coming into productivity...........

A week on standby.

Off to pub,to fill the glass.Cheers.QB

Gulfa

24th Oct 2004, 17:11

QB,
Do you think our unfortunate colleagues that had the recent misfortune of the very event you describe, would feel so much better had they had this wee insurance policy under there belt ?
Personally I doubt it ! Ek will do what ever EK wants to do, always have and always will.
There’s no unions, democracy, if’s but’s or maybes.
If I were to have a major aircraft incident, and it was not of my doing, I would not feel overly concerned. There have been several examples of that over the years.
If it was of my doing, then I would feel most concerned, big London Lawyers or no big London lawyers.
Not so dissimilar to driving around Dubai.

Ps, I make no reference to how I feel the blame will go with respect to the incident I allude to above. It has been covered at length and I just wish those gents the very best.

Mistah Kurtz

24th Oct 2004, 17:25

Thanks QB, precisely

Gulfa: "if I had a major aircraft incident and it was not of my doing I would not feel overly concerned"!!! I find your naivety stunning and your apathy actually quite depressing but I don't want us to get totally sidetracked on specifics

Look at the other comments in my post, these are decreases in T&C's being done incrementally. Give it another year and at this rate you will look back to this time with fond recollection

Buford

24th Oct 2004, 17:49

I don't work for Emirates and have been reading all of the posts on this thread but don't really understand what all just happened here. Could someone working for EK describe exactly what just changed with the terms and conditions? I'm gathering that there's no more pay for deadheading but beyond that I'm having a hard time deciphering what's going on.

I'm still in the interview hold pool and am trying to make an informed decision on what I'll do when/if Emirates calls. Could someone outline what's changed and give an estimate as to how it modifies the basic schedule and annual salary for a new guy?

Thanks.

bound_for_dubai

24th Oct 2004, 18:55

Well its pretty evident. There are two groups here. One of the group consists of pilots who have moved to Dubai to "better" their lives, maybe even their pay. They are the ones that will keep their mouths shut to keep their jobs and food on the table for their families.

The second group is your ex-BA, Virgin and major airline cowboys, who took a massive paycut, to inconvinience themselves in coming to Dubai. They were spoiled by unions and laws that protected them in their own country and think they can come to Dubai and change whats obviously a trend for the airline. They are the " I can't retire on $200,000 a year" group, the "lifes not fair" bunch. Nothing pleases them and they should not be a deciding factor on whether or not you decide go to Emirates.

For the North Americans, we know how hard it is to get a good job, and for us, Dubai is a dreamland. For the Euro guys, its a rat hole, the queen mother herself would have a heart attack if she had to visit Dubai.

Good luck!

Regards,

BFD

PS I am not an Emirates pilot, I will make that clear, cause the old grumpies hate it when someone thinks I am, so to save them from a heart attack I'll tell you myself.

Crazycanuk

24th Oct 2004, 18:55

Buford,

NO credit for Deaheading, sim, training, vacation, reserve, or anything else except flying and augmented ops.

Just imagine the possibilities. You will work an entire roster of flights and then the company will take your days off and use them for any of the above without any compensation to you.

What do you think of that. Also there is nothing we can do about it and when we stop whining in 6 months they will come up with more cuts. You can bet your bottom dollar on it.

If they call you, RUN AWAY.

By the way the pilots are always the target for these things. I don't think engineers, gate agents. baggage handlers, office staff etc. are being affected. I don't think the top brass like us and they are showing it.

crazy.

Gulfa

24th Oct 2004, 19:52

MK,
So, my stunning naivety is what ?
I land, have a total irrecoverable brake failure, run off the runway and into the paddock.
I’m locked up by the local tribal plod and Emirates leave me to rot. No !

I land half way down the runway in heavy rain, jump on the normally operating brakes and run off the end into a paddock. I’m locked up by the local tribal plod and some highly paid London QC will come to my rescue.
Yeh sure, just like that bloke who ran his 310 out of fuel and landed a mile short.

What do you think, we’re flying around uninsured.
You cock up big time, you face the consequences, it’s the nature of the job.

Anyway that’s all from me; my apathy has taken a hold. No credit for dead heading is nonsense, the rest is just the same S**T different day.
No further comments

Crazycanuk

24th Oct 2004, 20:07

gulfa

"No further comments"

best thing i've heard all day

SecurID

24th Oct 2004, 20:34

It's hard to remain balanced and focused on the areas that are of concern at midnight after a hard day's work, but I'll try and stay calm.

What a mess! I have never experienced such low morale in this company, a company that I applied to as far back as 1993 and hoped that one day I would join and be here in Dubai. Eleven years later and I wish I had not joined. What a very, very sad state of affairs. I am now experiencing possibly the lowest point of my professional life and for the first time have come to a crossroads. The decision that I will take is unknown to me yet, but the fact that I am there at all is an appalling indictment of the company for which I work.

We were once the proud owners of major awards, Airline of the Year no less! Now our customer complaints division is overworked. Technical delays were unheard of, now they occur with frightening regularity. Training staff were the pick of the crop, now many are inexperienced individuals just happy to get the title and pick up the extra cash. No offence, but would you really be Training Captains in BA, QANTAS, Cathay etc? Individuals made the Flight Operations department what it is today. Publications such as the route manual were all done by pilots working that bit extra to benefit the team. Now the pilots are not interested in doing that wextra work as they are not being properly remunerated. We have non-flying management staff, non-pilots in the case of the two fleet managers, who whilst very capable gentlemen, still think that pilots are overpaid and underworked. Yes, that old chestnut! I just wish it were true.

I am not going to attack individuals, I am not going to lower the gear 50 miles out, I am not going to write in and complain, or seek an audience with the management. The reason? None of that will work at all.

The last and only time in my recollection, that any change was brought about by the pilot body, was when a meeting was chaired by Mr. Maurice Flanagan and Mr. Tim Clark, effectively the top brass. This meeting was called to address the changes in upgrade criteria after the Gulf Air A320 accident in Bahrain. This affected the majority of First Officers as the hours requirement went from 4,500 to something ridiculous and an extended period of time in the company. After hearing what the pilots had to say, the criteria was reduced to the current 6,000hrs and three years in the company. Yes, still very good, but prior to that, those with suitable experience were being promoted in less than twelve months.

But will we have that opportunity again? No. The reason? Because at the last meeting, chaired by the new Executive Vice President Engineering and Operations who was widely believed to be addressing us in order to announce the results of the 'review' that was reportedly to have been taking place since the last pilots meeting, the pilots felt as if they had wasted their own time to listen to what was said and felt that their opinions, concerns and grievances were not being listened to. All the meeting achieved in my own opinion was to demonstrate the lack of man management skills held by that management at that time. The decision was then made to not have any further meetings due to the lack of respect shown towards the EVP E&O. I know things are done differetly here, but respect is earned through actions and deeds rather than expected due to position or title held, in my book anyway.

Mr. Alan Stealey has recently joined us from British Airways with a good reputation and a solid man management background. If what has been written is to be believed, then he does not 'need' this job. Would he not be the most respected of all managers if he actually stuck his own neck on the block and started batting for his own staff in order that the correct changes can start happening? But then he has only been here 5 minutes and is probably not aware that this most recent change is only the last in a long line of changes, some trivial some not, but all negative in their impact. Let me repeat that:

This most recent change is only the last in a long line of changes, some trivial some not, but all negative in their impact.

But then what Flight Operations manager has been there long enough to be able to document and quote all those changes? For those not in the know, we have had five Head of Flight Operations in almost as many years. How long will it be before Mr. Stealey is escorted unceremoniously from the offices by Group Security? That does seem to be the preferred method of career execution here.

Well its pretty evident. There are two groups here.

Is it? To whom? I fall into neither category. Yes, I am just another expat pilot trying to earn a decent wage and get ahead of the life that I left behind, in my case, in the UK. I figured that the advantages of tax-free living in a relatively cheap part of the world, having fun and working for a rapidly expanding airline far outweighed my old life, a real rat race, back in Blighty. But I am not going to keep my mouth shut in order to put food on my table. There are principles at stake here that need addressing. The company no longer provides an open forum at which we can discuss our concerns, so those same concerns get aired, unfortunately, in a public domain such as this. If there was no PPRuNe it would be discussed somewhere else.

The company has effectively altered my contract of employment, the future impact has yet to be seen but taking the last twelve months of work and overlaying the new block hours productivity pay, I lose in simple cash terms 9% of what I have earned. That is a fact and has been calculated on the period from the 1st September 2003 to 31st August. 9% of what I earned last year would not have been paid to me had I worked under these new conditions. Other factors that have influenced my concern regarding the financial remuneration is the escalating cost of living in Dubai. That last is a fact and research shows that the rate of infaltion has grown from an annual CPI (Consumer Price Inflation) of 1.9% in 2000 to 3.2% in 2003. The figures for 2001 and 2002 of 2.7% and 2.9% respectively, clearly show an upward trend. Incidentally with an annual increase in the population of 7.6% (the largest increase of anywhere in the world) is it any wonder that the traffic and congestion is becoming ridiculous and the roads are a nightmare?

Before all you non-EK pilots start saying how lucky we are and that how hard done by you all are, yes, we did recieve a large bonus this year. But I contributed to the success that the company achieved last year. I contribute, as do all of my colleagues, from pilots to floor cleaners, on a daily basis to the increasing ambitions of this carrier and if I am working harder and harder in order to achieve that success, then I consider a bonus to be fair reward for that work. But also consider that we have no pension scheme and that the monies invested for me on my nehalf by the company in our provident scheme has shown a growth of -4% over the last six years. That is not a typo, the - sign is deliberately before the 4!

My advice to anyone considering joining Emirates is not even to consider it. Stay where you are and try and get enough dosh behind you to change careers altogether. It's been fun, but this one has now gone down the toilet.

P.S. Mr. Buford, Americans really should read up on foreign affairs. The Queen Mother died peacefully in her sleep in March, 2002. Your reference to others as 'Cowboys' is also resented.

Aaah! I see someone has beaten me to it! Still, you shouldn't go around calling people names.

330 Man

25th Oct 2004, 04:43

Boy oh boy what a can of worms our dear friend AAR has opened here! I have been flying and have missed all of the fun of this thread but I think I must add my 2 fills worth.

After careful study of my previous pay for this year I have discovered an astounding fact:
OLD PRODUCTIVITY PAY PLAN
January-October= nil extra pay

NEW PRODUCTIVITY PAY PLAN
January-October=nil extra pay

Shocking is'nt it? The reason is simple. I DO NOT WORK OVERTIME! I am not here for the hours or the experience. I do not care about adding more time to the logs. I do not answer the phone on days off. If I want to work on a day off I call them on a duty day and ask if they have anything for the day I want to work. They never do. I am not taking a pay cut and I am not getting a raise. I am not wealthy, in fact I am rather poor. Regardless, I do not work overtime, and if every one else will not work overtime then it will create a need for more Captains, which will require even more first Officers. In the long run we will all be better off: F/O's will upgrade and when there are too few applicants for new first officers, the package may be improved once again. Although it seems that every time the package is improved we make less money! How does AAR do that?

I am off to the beach to look at fat Russian chicks in thongs!

Regards,

330 man

Shake

25th Oct 2004, 05:07

PLEASE lets do us all a favour and ignore the historically ignorant and intentionally inflamatory posts from 'Bound for DXB' who is obviously a complete tosser and who ironically shows ideal managment material for EK...AGAIN IGNORE HIS RUBBISH as it only serves to dilute this thread and keeps him away from the porn sites he so obviously needs.

The point about this last ammendment to our T&Cs is that it is yet another hit in a long line of hits coupled with no appreciation of the increase of the cost of living and decrease in our standard of living. On the outside EK is throwing its money around on multi-million pound sponsorship deals whilst the rot is growing on the inside. I thought when I came to EK I could read Flight International normally for the first time in a long time but I am back to opening it at the appointments section again in the hope that something reasonable will appear soon...what a shame.

As for the insurance issue mentioned earlier; if you screw up (and it is 99% possible that any accident/incident will be pilot error) you will need it. If it is not your fault (with the company, aircraft manufacturers and pax lawyers looking for a scape goat) you will need it. For unfair dismissle (99% possible at EK)...you will need it. A330 man, if you go to the beach looking for fat Russian chicks in thongs all you will soon need is a doctor!

Anyway, EK can be taken to court in any country they have assets in. So if you are an Aussie you can take them to court in Oz etc. Any bad publicity would probably result in an out of court settlement...in any case you will still need a lawyer.

bound_for_dubai

25th Oct 2004, 05:45

LOL! you guys are absolutely right... I am in the wrong career, I should go for management. How am I possibly going to have a career anywhere with pilots such as yourselves who are willing to hurt your own company and its profitablility by trying to get back at them. Very Nice.

And the porn sites, yea thats really grown up Shake, have nothing intelligent to say, because knowing EK managment reads this crap that you guys post, you think things will get better for you?

330 man seems to have it right. Why complain about getting called in on your days off. Anyone with brains and family wouldn't answer the phone.

With behaviour like this (and I can guarantee EK management knows whats going on), don't expect things to get better, with low morale and people plotting crazy unreasonable things, it all gonna go down the tube. It works in any company and in any industry at the end.... the company wins or everyone loses.

As for Shake thinking he could challenge an airline because they didn't pay him for coming to work on his day off... lots of luck. With the money they have they'd play him around and not see a court for many many years.

I have spoken with tons of pilots here both AC and ACE, all unhappy wit the job security all planning to go to EK or GF. They can't believe the attitude of some people in this company which leads me to my question... and this one is bothering me.... how did you guys get through the interviews. If you ever publish it I will be the first one to read it!

Good day in the Sandpit!

BFD

Quod Boy

25th Oct 2004, 05:52

Bound for Dubai:-

I have yet to meet a "cowboy" from BA,VS,they are consumate professionals,in every case.There are many "groups" here,some came through choice,most infact,others because they needed a job.None will retire on 200K pa.

You however,go and put your anorak back on,and get back to sharpening your pencils.

SecurID:- Very eloquently,put.

Any pilot,here in EK,who believes they do not need,insurance cover,are either tight fisted beyond belief,or naive in the extreme.

A330 man,part from your pastime of thong watching,what do you do IF,you are rostered 95-100 hrs,each month,without choice?

If rostered,you do the work,you get the hours,the money,I cant see how you avoid unless sick?

With the new system,that wont be a problem,however.
QB

bound_for_dubai

25th Oct 2004, 06:01

I apologize for my wording, cowboy was probably not the best word to use. I am sure they are all great guys, and very professional at what they do. But to the outside world, especially people who do plan on working for this company, the vibe is that u've all lost ur passion for what you do and u do it for $$$. Its hard for even someone with enough hours to get a straight to the point non bias answer, because someone always has something smart to say. Not everyone is after the money, I know I sure ain't. If I was I'd be a lawyer or Doctor.

Emirates is treating you guys this way because they can. In terms of business and management, its brilliant all though the ethics are horrible. They lower ur pay and increase ur workload because they have a huge pilot pool, guys that are willing to move down there cause they think its where they want to be. Don't like the way they are treating you, fine, they can have you replaced faster than you can say "honey pack your bags, we're leaving". They got guys with just as much time or guys with not as much but with the money to buy their own endorsements and to buy their seat in the flight deck.

They don't treat baggage handlers and engineers this way, because maybe their supply or hiring pool for those jobs are not as big as the pilots. And since pilots are more likely to migrate than baggage handlers they don't have a problem with it.

I am not as dumb as you think, I know how it all works, I've worked co-op in major corporations and my study in college was aviation management.

You got to live with what you got and sometimes life doesn't ask you you what you want. You think its bad at EK, its bad almost everywhere. In the end its you guys that decided to go there, you signed the contract or agreement or whatever it is you guys do to make things official (if that even exists there)

I know it isn't easy to live there and work especially if you're not local, I have many friends that live there, study there and work there. They are why I became interested in going down there. I am not too thrilled either. My first job is gonna require me to live in my van in the boonies for the spring, summer and fall season because the pay is less than $12000CDN a year, but I have to pay my dues like everyone else.

In the end, weigh out your odds, if its not worth your time then leave and go somewhere that makes you happy, but don't spoil opportunities and chances for others who started just like you and deserve every chance you got!

Greatly Appreciated,

BFD

ernestkgann

25th Oct 2004, 06:56

bound-for-dubai is a canadian child who lurks on this forum and dreams of an exotic life in the middle east, a place he understands because he's never been there. it is best to stick him on your ignore list and report him to the moderator because his opinions are not founded in anything.

bound_for_dubai

25th Oct 2004, 07:01

You would know all of this, where I've been what I dream because you are what.... a washed out miserable pilot, who doesn't post a location for himself because he's from nowhere, going nowhere. Never knew s*** could float, then I saw you swim. Happy flying, if you ever get around to doing that after you finish crying.

BFD

thegypsy

25th Oct 2004, 07:02

Ernest

My god BFD is an irritating little brat is he not!! He used to go in for one liners but now he seems to have got the bit between his teeth he rambles on and on. With the approaching Canadian winter I guess we are all in for more and more of his inane prattlings.

Quod Boy

25th Oct 2004, 08:04

BFD,EK are looking for people just like you,but not on the flight deck.Your services,will be put to good use in the "pencil sharpening dept",where you can hide behind a rubber plant,plotting further cuts,to the "cowboys" you so want to join.

Your ethics,principles,and ideology,are familiar to us here as pilots,who care about our future,and that of EK.We simply have no meaningful dialogue,or comms with our Flt ops managers.

It is absurd,to suggest anyone here,wishes to "hit back" or "hurt" our airline,we are professionals,and merely find it rather difficult to accept imposed,forced changes,with no explanation.That is not unnatural,Im sure it even happens in Canada.

Now,get back in your van,in the boonies,put your boxing gloves on,and enjoy that cold winter,filling in lots of forms,to utilise your aviation skills,whilst we moan and whine on the beach,with a cold beer.with out hats and snakeskin boots on.

QB

Dumpvalve

25th Oct 2004, 08:06

BFD,
Are you familiar with the noun, 'gravitas'? A rough colloquialism would be 'street cred'. Point is, you have none. Disappear until you're potty trained.

Dune

25th Oct 2004, 10:04

Buford

"I don't work for Emirates and have been reading all of the posts on this thread but don't really understand what all just happened here. Could someone working for EK describe exactly what just changed with the terms and conditions? I'm gathering that there's no more pay for deadheading but beyond that I'm having a hard time deciphering what's going on. "

To give you an analogy, suppose you work for GM on the car assembly line. Your job requires you to work 4 days/week building the cars (Mon-Thur) and 1 day/week doing paperwork in the office (Fri). Your normal work week is 40 hours; 32 hours building cars and 8 hours doing the paperwork. Your contract says that if you work over 40 hours/week (either building cars or doing the paperwork) they will pay you extra for your time. However, it will not be "overtime" that you might think of in the U.S. such as time and a half, double time, etc; it will be a small amount of "productivity pay" above your normal salary/hour you make anyway (if you made $20/hour GM decides to make your "productivity pay" $24.60 for each hour you work beyond 40 hours/week either on the assembly line or in the office. About 23% more than your base rate, and hence the reason the company has never used the term "overtime". In EK's structure that is approx the increase above your base rate for a 4 year Captain and as your salary increases over years in the company the % decreases (as the rate of "productivity pay" is a fixed amount that never changes). A year 12 Captain actually makes less per hour working "overtime" than his base rate/hour! No wonder the company had such a hard time finding "volunteers" to do "overtime".). Also lets say GM tells you that when they produce the monthly schedule they will roster you for this extra "productivity" at their discretion, that even if you have no interest in working "overtime" you just won't have any choice (EK currently) and it will just show up magically on your following month's roster.

Now suppose GM comes down and says they have decided to change the game. Now you will still work the 40 hours/week but they will only pay you overtime for the time you spend building cars on Mon-Thur. To compensate you for this they tell you they will lower the threshold for the productivity pay by 6% (83 to 78 hours in EK's case), so now your package at GM looks like this:

Productivity pay threshold: now 37.6 hours (6% less than before)
Mon-Thur: build cars for 32 hours
Fri: do paperwork for 8 hours

Because of the changes GM now can schedule you an additional 5.6 hours/week building cars before they need to pay you the additional "productivity pay". They can also now schedule you as many hours as they want on Fri doing paperwork as it does not come into the calculation for productivity pay and they do not have to pay you for it; in other words you get to work for free on Friday.

Now take all that and substitute car building for physically flying the airplane (block hours only) and substitute paperwork for reserve (standby duty), deadheading, simulators, ground school training, etc.

How do figure that would go down on the GM assembly line?

Still wanna come?????

Mistah Kurtz

25th Oct 2004, 11:44

Beautifully and elegantly put!

ironbutt57

25th Oct 2004, 11:59

One could only wish that a pilot could have the work hours and pay/benefits package of an assembly line worker from GM...and I know...lived in a town full of 'em, all my neighbors wuz one....

Shake

25th Oct 2004, 12:22

Out of interest, has anyone tested the legal waters for breach of contract? Will the legal cover give us access to such legal advice? If we all compare todays T&Cs to those we joined with would we have a case?

4HolerPoler

25th Oct 2004, 13:15

I'm sorry it took so long folks (occasionally I have to work ;) ) but I'm sure you will all (except himself that is) be relieved to hear that BFD has had all rights to this forum removed. Once again I will reiterate that these forums are primarily for professional pilots; we welcome all walks of aviation professionals to interact, as well as those interested or associated with aviation. All we ask is that they demonstrate a common respect for other forum members. BFD has clearly abused that civil decency and I've pulled the plug on him. I apologize to those in children's interest groups or civil liberty organizations who feel that I may have abused my remit but that's the way it is.

Now let's get on with our business.

4HP

Dune

25th Oct 2004, 13:25

Earl Hadlea:

Very interesting. I got 7 reserve (2nd from bottom bid group, mid way up in my group) when last month I got 1 day reserve (bottom bid group).

7 Days off total (max 2 in a row)

Same weighting on the CRS bid as last month so if anything my roster should have improved, not gotten worse.

Not supposed to come into effect until Dec 1 my ass; some definate manipulation of the new T&C's here to see how it will all pan out.

4HolerPoler:

Thank you for your intervention, very good news. Now maybe we can let the adults continue to debate these important issues.

Cheers.

Dune

Cerberus

25th Oct 2004, 15:19

I'm top bid and actually got a decent roster for a change. However, I look forward to December with interest when I will be first to trial the new system as a bottom bidder!

I'm trying to work out who will stay working in the office. If 2 weeks office days (without any associated credit) will pay less than a Manchester in overtime. They have been trying to get pilots out of some of the key Flt Ops jobs, now they may succeed. I shudder to think about the quality of new hires we will get with zippo pilot involvement in the recruitment process.

Can't wait to see what happens when they start paying augmented crews in accordance with the flight time they are allowed to log. We already have several flights that go into discretion the moment the parking brake is released. Is it legal to sched a flight as 9hrs block when it will actually take about 9.30 to avoid taking an extra crew member.

The thin end of the wedge is getting fatter by the second, better go to Choits and get some more vaseline. Ut oh!

Cerberus:(

Quod Boy

25th Oct 2004, 20:22

Dune.If I didnt know better,I might think you designed the new system,very nicely put.

Cerberus,your Dec roster will be a good litmus test,enjoy your good roster,whilst it lasts.

The new system,has resulted in 5 or 6 of Recruitment team resigning,as no credit now received.So a well researched move on that front,to keep pace with continued expansion.

Word is the 2/3 ,3/4 augment nonsense is to be shelved.

New callsign,effective,1st Dec,in co ordination with new T and Cs.

BOHICA replaces Emirates.

Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

Safe flying to all,and keep you glasses,half full lads.Been in training school,hence,SITREP,all rumour naturally.

QB;) ;) ;)

crapflying

25th Oct 2004, 22:11

Hello, again
I am sure that things will only get worse, since we do not decide to stand up to this...
Two notes that I think all of us need to take a look at. Why are they offering us 800 AED for our days off?
Because they are desperate to find people to work on their days off, and since goodwill amongst the pilot group will not get anybody to fly for them, they are offering the 800 as a carrot. It goes to show you guys, how management works in solving problems. See a problem try to fix it. See no problem, well things must be great.
On a second issue, I think that now that the company is growing over 1000 pilots you will not see many of us not calling in sick when we feel we had enough.
Guess what? Next month they are starting to f....k around with my roster, and I have a feeling already that I am going to be fatigued, and not fly the 10 trips they have scheduled me for. I am definetely not coming back deadhead, so any of you want to do it, go ahead...
By the way, when they change the contract from its original, and since there are no legal labour laws in Dubai, you are bound by your home country laws, so you are protected when it comes time to go to court...
Cheers

411A

26th Oct 2004, 00:22

All well and good, crapflying, but then again it doesn't seem to have worked out for the CX guys...last I heard.

Known facts (or at least it should absolutely have been known) that the rules are set by management in the middle east.

If you didn't know this before...now you do, and not a thing you can do about it.

And further, when you applied, you asked for work, yes?
Now that you actually have to work (gravy train derailed) so there is only one alternative, like it or leave.

Simple as that.

It has been ever thus since aeroplanes were first introduced to the middle eastern folks...and it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Yes, it was once true that the big bucks were there (MiddleEast) for the taking, but these times have loooog passed.

Like it or not...and apparently most do not.
Just the way it is, and nothing you can do about it.

On the brighter side, perhaps other flying jobs have opened up elsewhere, but suspect that terms and conditions are on the ever-more downward slide.

Shake

26th Oct 2004, 04:52

Crapflyer,

The legal aspect is still very interesting if we are to an extent covered by our homeland laws and not exclusively by the local ones...how do we find out exactly? This I believe this could offer a way forward if a group action were to be considered.

You are right with much of what you say but remember that there are many here who have young families and do not have your financial security to do much yet. This is what he company cynically count on to a certain extent. However, as the changes begin to take effect, paying tax again back home won't seem as bad as it once did as it is possible to clear more net back home now than the take home package here (even with accom).

Good luck with standing your ground...remember your on sand now.

picu

26th Oct 2004, 05:04

crapflying,

the "800dhs for being called out on day off" will never be required. Remember, there will now be ample pilots on standby, because it's now free to the company.

wagtail23

26th Oct 2004, 13:54

Here's another way to look at the whole equation:

Back at the last pilots meetings (gone the way of the Dodo) in December and January, we were informed that the T+Cs were being looked into.

The company DID NOT spend 6 to 8 months coming up with something that benefits us, the workers.

But my real worry is this: is this the first of a two part implementation and part two is to give us the required minimum days off per month, and the rest will be stanbys, availables, and other such duties. This will mean that the company no longer has to pay ANY overtime, call out fees and saves a bundle on our pay, whilst paying for long term health problems which will arise from being over-worked.

And before anyone says we're not over worked, look at it this way: many of our flights leave between 2am and 4am local, and how much rest do you get the afternoon/evening before with all the neighbours and kids etc making merry? You do a 10 hour duty, have 24 hours off and then come back again to arrive sometime around dawn the following day.

OK, so a day to get the body back in order would be great? But no, away again after another 24 hours off for another 24 hour period away.

This will lead to fatigue, which he company doesn't recognise and will put you down as being sick!

So with all these long hour flights (20 per trip away) you do 4 flights and you have 80ish hours for approx 12 days work, and thus require the other 18 or 19 days off.

The company doesn't like this and has a. decreased the augmented crew flight duty you can claim for your 28 days maximum, and b. now no longer giving credit for any other duty.

Now most other, DECENT, airlines give at least 2 nights off down route for some proper rest before returning. But this would cost the company in monetary terms in allowances and accommodation.

So make up your mind AAR, days off down route (costing the company money), or days off in Dubai, with less fatigue and less expenses!

Not that it matters for me any more.......

TTFN

Wag

Left Coaster

26th Oct 2004, 15:31

Sorry to hear that the goal posts were moved (again!) it doesn't really make for a happy time. It sounds like EK is grinding it's higher cost employees in order to weather this current fuel issue. And I wonder how much cash is at hand for all those deliveries that start soon. Watch out, they WILL be after you for more...word is that you guys will have to foot your DEWA bills before too long. (BTW Dubai Electric and Water Authority:E )

millerscourt

26th Oct 2004, 17:40

Left Coaster

EK is probably going the same way as GF as we used to have free Utilities and transport to work and over the years it all went. Got an allowance instead which never got increased! One of the reasons I left over 10 years ago.

Dumpvalve

26th Oct 2004, 18:30

dungfunnel,
Thanks for putting us in the picture, wrt your T&Cs. Now I can understand why everybody's queuing up to get into the average UK charter company. I guess the lifestyle must be hard to top as well, what with all those exotic destinations and ample time off.

desert_knight

26th Oct 2004, 18:33

Yawn.......once again, so much hot air.

Many of us here at EK in Management grades (and yes, Pilots really are in Management grades) are expected to work as required without overtime or time of in lieu - it is assumed to be part of the package.

We all work pretty hard in this company, long days and weekends when required, shift work, etc, etc. You are not the only group for whom conditions change or who have contributed to the success of the company. You do however seem to be the only group who talk of infantile tactics to try and "teach the company a lesson".

Market forces will always dictate what rewards you can expect. At the present time the market is in favour of the employer, that may well change, but for now your position is weak.

If life and conditions are so intolerable for you personally then find somewhere else to go (if you can) otherwise please try and restrain yourselves from ranting like a spoiled child.

To those who think high oil prices are good for the Dubai Government and therefore EK because Dubai is an "oil rich" Emirate, then think again, they are not..........that is the Emirate down the road!

It also never ceases to amaze me how little some crew seem know about the company they work for, expected aircraft deliveries, Flt Ops management structure etc. Try looking beyond your roster and pay packet sometimes.

From a lowly (non pilot) management grade, been here 9 years in EK and still enjoying the challenge of working in a growing airline.

Shake

26th Oct 2004, 19:51

DK...

So what am I supposed to know about EK that makes it OK to change my contract T&Cs at will? Who are you you tell me that it is a childish reaction to be angered by the constant erosion in pay and life style?

Such an arrogant stand point can only come from 9 years in an 'expanding airline' stuck on the inside. You should try and get out a bit and get the real sense of the frustration and anger felt from the 'kids' outside.

And yes, if I can leave I will, but as you may be aware if you open a window, it is not as simple as just walking away. It will take a little time to do, but if things remain as they are I am sure I will not be the only one on the way out and your next few years may be spent in a contracting airline.

tic

26th Oct 2004, 21:12

You EK guys are your own worst enemies. The biggest whingers on Pprune, maybe the planet,seem to be EK drivers. Look at the Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi workers,etc etc etc working in that sun all day, then you can complain. They have very little choice, you do. With a rapidly expanding airline, do you really thing your management has it in for you? Do they want to see you shove off to "greener "pastures? I dought it. You all have a skill that most of them don't, they might not like it, but it's a fact. Without you, and the others that make up any airline, they wouldn't have a job either, so it's not in their interest to make life difficult for you.Maybe they have the BIG picture and you don't.
Grow up all of you,you are in the best airline in the Middle East, you should rightly be proud of that. If you have a collective problem, take it to the right people. It would be in their interests to listen. If you treat them with respect, you may get some coming your way. I am not Management by the way.
tic

145qrh

26th Oct 2004, 21:24

DK,

What difference does management structure or deliveries make to me a line pilot??? I get a roster- I fly and fly .......I get a contract......get paid accordingly ,, unless of coarse they screw up ,, nah..... never happen!!!!

DEC's , A343's, Overtime payments,, etc etc etc.....

DF,

You made the choice not to come, get over it.....even with our changes I would rather be where I am as opposed to where you think you are. The UK charter market is not what you would call secure,, Excalibur,Britannia,Airtours,Air Europe,Inter-European,Airways Cymru,Paramount ,UK Leisure et all,,, ring any bells.

145qrh

27th Oct 2004, 00:21

Why should I not voice my opinion???? You seem to be the one with the issues,,,,,,if you are so happy with UK CHarter flying .do it and keep your interest in the ME by reading not posting,,,you arent bound_for_dubai in disguise are you ??? your posts resemble that of a rambling teenager.

As for anyone else's opinion on EK or the ME we have made our choice, you yours so as I said get over it , you may have some valid points but it's the way you say them. If you think you live in a democracy ,, well maybe in theory you do,as for workers rights, ahh the famous BAlpa, OK if you work for BA otherwise give youself a 1% payrise .If you screw up in the UK you will end up in front of a great British Sun Reading Jury. Now tell me again about workers rights. Here at least we know where we stand you on the other hand you have no idea .

I can just see it now Tony Blairs book on the Great British Democracy," the world was falling apart round our ears, terrorists were behind every lampost, we made it our goal to put and end to Fox hunting.......all at only 1/4 mill per MP ..what value."

You are at least correct about the Aussies and Canucks. On one hand a bunch of Europeans 8000 miles away, the others failed Americans..........only kidding mate or pal :D :D :D

Some heated language removed 4HP

Pontious

27th Oct 2004, 02:19

DV

I've been here 18 months and I love it! Nobody comes to EK from the UK for the Bunce. It's a question of quality of life. I came here to get away from crappy weather, tax, crappy promotion prospects, tax, a crappy government, tax, crappy services, tax, miserable b******s on late trains, tax, road rage,tax, the whordes of juvenile delinquents of a jilted generation, tax, same old Med and Caribbean routes, tax, same old routine, tax, whinging b******s, tax oh and dwindling pensions. Enuff said.

:ok:

desert_knight

27th Oct 2004, 02:34

There is nothing wrong with being upset over what you see as being a change to your T&Cs..........you just don't ned to rant and rave to the world about how hard done by you think are.

My standard of living here is still pretty good compared to how it was in the UK, even with cost of living rises probably outstripping pay rises here. The flight crew I see and mix with don't seem to be suffering too much either.

Still, I have yet to work at an Airline where SOME of the crew didn't think they were over worked, under payed and unloved.

If you want to know about real changes in T&Cs, look at American, United, Delta, US Air, etc.

EK a contracting airline? I think not.

Dumpvalve

27th Oct 2004, 03:39

dungfunnel,
What was that all about? Here I am, singing the UK charter market's praises and you get all defensive, like. You don't have to justify your choice of career path to anybody - we all know exactly how good it is.

Vagrant

27th Oct 2004, 04:41

Hello men

DK is right. EK is only now doing, what most airlines have been doing for the last 4 years, i.e. tightening their belt. 9/11, Sars came and went and affected alot of airlines terribly, some fatally. Few, EK being one, were somehow unaffected, and some say, even benefitted. Fuel prices however, attack everyone's bottom line.

I'd already completed half my career, when I joined EK not to long ago, so I can say with some authority that out there is .....SH!TE. This is still the best job going, in most respects, and there are much worse places to be trying to earn a living, than Dubai. To come on a public forum and whinge, makes us look like a bunch of spoiled brats, to those thousands who have taken serious paycuts over the last few years, or even worse, to those thousands that lost their jobs. Grow up guys!

I fully expect the EK bubble to burst sometime in the future, but until then, I'll quitely eek out a living here, knowing that it is one of the very few places left that we can do it to the standard it was in the past. For those who think differently, please have a look out there and see what's available and comparable, and then let us all know. Halas!

V

Crazycanuk

27th Oct 2004, 06:27

bat dung,

"As for where i am,well not surrounded by whinging aussies and naieve canadians"

If it wasn't for people like the canadians you would be speaking german. pal. Have some respect.

Desert_Knight.

"There is nothing wrong with being upset over what you see as being a change to your T&Cs..........you just don't ned to rant and rave to the world about how hard done by you think are."

Believe it or not if we speak about these things in the traditional ways we would get fired. This thread is not to air our laundry to the world, it is to comunicate with our co-workers without fear.

I think most will agree that we have been shafted. We need real ideas and then some way of making them happen. C'mon guys there must be somthing we can do as individuals.

crazy.

ahmedette

27th Oct 2004, 06:46

A couple of Desert_Knight’s comments extracted from past posts reveal his true feelings about pilots:

“I know that Pilots aren't the brightest in the world……….”.

And this really infantile little gem:

“Now if we really want to improve safety how about gettig rid of those REALLY dangerous bits of kit on aircraft.......flightdeck crew! All the reports I read seem to suggest they are the prime cause of accidents…… “

Finally:

“I am a Flight Simulator Engineer for an International Airline…….”

DK, I’d stick to flight simulators, at least they are anchored to the ground. I wouldn’t want you in charge of ANYTHING that actually leaves the earth’s surface.

DK’s posts contain few facts and reek of an undercurrent of pilot dislike. Or…..do I detect just a faint note of jealousy? :E :E

Shake

27th Oct 2004, 06:54

Thanks Ahmedette...

Was going to waste more time on DK until I saw your post and saw what he really is.

Anyway, as for Prune being the primary means of venting: what other forum or mechanism is there in EK where GENUINE concerns can be aired? There is NONE. The last time grievences were aired in an 'open' public forum some lost their profit share while others had not too veiled threats that it was unwise to give thier opinions...anyway, no more pilot meetings since.

This is not the forum to do our dirty laundry, but with all other doors closed, it is the only one.

Surely someone in real management can get the hint? All of this continues to be so mishandled to the detriment to both the pilots and the company. It would be in all our interests to take these 'discussions' out of the public forum and into a more private and constructive enviroment...and I don't mean another pilots meeting...they do not work. Changes will have to be made on a more fundamental level IF we are to move forward.

crapflying

27th Oct 2004, 07:24

Hello everyone,

To answer a question about labour laws, I have it in black and white from my solicitor, prior to leaving home to come to Dubai. I am protected by my country's laws since UAE does not have labour laws. There have been cases even in Emirates, and in all cases the employee has won. It does help if Emirates flys to your own country, as you can force them to pay up then...
In a recent case a DEC from a US company was fired, and he has since taken Emirates to court for unlawfull termination of contract. He will probably win the case as the US courts will apply the US labour laws.
T&Cs in Emirates cannot be compared with T&Cs in other major carriers, for many reasons. Emirates salaries to begin with, even with all company accomadation, school fees etc, does not compare to salaries paid in the major carriers of the world. If you look at the American carriers, they make 3 times what we do, and they have a pension in the end and not just a provident fund. If you look in Europe BA, Airfrance, etc, they have double our salaries and a pension in the end. Even with all the cuts in place in Europe and the US it still comes down to more money for them, compared to what we make.
Emirates at present, and in the past has been making profits, so there is no need to lower T&Cs in anticipation of hard times ahead. In the same thinking, we should get a pay rise in anticipation of good times ahead. The other carriers are in the red, big time so they need to do something to survive. Emirates on the other hand is a growing airline with lots of cash in hand, and big profits despite of all the current problems, exactly because it has a lower cost base.
Should management decide to save money, they could do it in areas of operation, fuel policy which is non existant (I do not meen cost index and tankering) but rather operational practices such as APU usage, starting engines, etc... Utilization of A/C in a better way and many other things.
I just believe that some idiot in the office thinking in a very amateur way decided to take a swing at pilots T&Cs just to satisfy his bosses that he is doing something. If he did not do this he would have to actualy work and think of how to minimize costs the real way, which does require actualy for them to earn their living.
What we can do is nothing, because there is no unity. Just enjoy the weather and the golf or sailing you do.
I am sure though that what management have not quantified is good will, as this cannot be quatified, but hey I am just a pilot, so what do I know?
Cheers

Dune

27th Oct 2004, 07:52

dungfunnel:

I appreciate your input and thought you made some very good points.

I am personally envious that you are in an airline at home (as many other career pilots are throughout the world) where you enjoy the job and feel you are being fairly rewarded for your efforts. I felt like that when I joined Emirates years ago (I liked both the place and the job, hence the reason I came) but the past few years of crap have sure changed my mind about this place and this job (hence the reason I am potentially looking elsewhere). I think you guys need to cut him a little slack; I wish I felt the same working at EK as he does for his airline. I think we all wish we felt the same about our respective employer and position, irrespective of whom you work for.

desert_knight

You my friend have little credibility on this site. We have no idea what sort of "management" you pretend to be, which department you pretend to be involved with or if you even have a basic knowledge of flight operations. Please enlighten us as to your position, your contract and the cuts to your pay and working conditions you have experienced over the past 3 years (since I feel it is important we share the pain together) and your credibility might improve.

As to your comment; "you just don't ned to rant and rave to the world about how hard done by you think are" (by the way, direct cut and paste of your post; suggest you "management" types invest in an English course and a spell checker)" you need to understand (which you would if you worked in flt ops as it is common knowledge amongst not only the pilots by all management types) that our EVPE&O has severed all forms of communication with us other than through written Flight Crew Notices. He does not have the courage or the ability to "manage"; to address his employees in an open forum of discussion and explain why this is taking place. And since we do not have a union or any form of credible upper management to voice our concerns to (that they in turn might present to the EVPE&O for consideration), this forum is the only source we have. It is not rant, it is a way for us to discuss subjects of a critical nature to our employment with this company and at the same time let the rest of the aviation community know what is behind the shiny veneer that is called a flying job with Emirates.

To those of you who are not pilots and who sit and read these threads, please remember pilots deal with facts. They are trained over many years of experience to react to situations as they develop. They do not operate well in a vacuum, they need facts to deal with problems. The term used is "situational awareness" and to a pilot there is nothing more disconcerting than having things going on around him in the aircraft that he either does not understand (because he doesn't have all the facts to allow him to understand what is happening) or actions that are out of his control (and therefore he is unable to react to the situation). Hence you will see a common theme in almost every comment from a pilot; a need to know what is going on (to understand fully the facts) and a need to do something about it. That is what all this "ranting" is about as information is not being passed from the company to us. Emirates pilots are trying to share as much information as possible to develop a picture of what is happening around them and then to do something about it.

The "do something about it" might take many different forms. Some might result in career moves to other airlines, some might result in attempts to mitigate the damage caused by the changes (for example, now that many flight duties are not to be credited (such as deadheading or min credit for short flights) would it not make sense to fly as fast as you can (to hell with the fuel burn) to try to limit the amount of time you have to work for free? Of course I would never suggest this ;)), some might be attempts at structural reform (such as dissuading new f/o's from coming, thereby putting "personnel" pressure on flt ops as it tries to expand), and some might just be vengeful backlash.

Bottom line is pilots are not trained to sit on their hands and do nothing and they WILL react.

ahmedette

Thanks for the info; was putting my post to DK together and didn't see your info. Makes it clear now.

4HolerPoler

27th Oct 2004, 07:59

Post of the Week Award to Dune :ok: Great prose sir; a message succinctly and deftly put forward.

4HP

fullforward

27th Oct 2004, 08:47

Direct to the point!...

Dumpvalve

27th Oct 2004, 15:59

dungfunnel,
There's a lot you don't understand correctly - the exchange rate is just the tip of the iceberg...

hostler

27th Oct 2004, 16:56

ahmedette

27th Oct 2004, 19:09

Dungfunnel: -

What an appropriate name. It matches the quality of your posts perfectly. :mad:

puff m'call

27th Oct 2004, 19:38

Thank's Dune, let me buy you a beer!!!!

Quod Boy

27th Oct 2004, 22:01

Erm,Vagrant and DK.

Its because of people like you,and your attitudes of servitude,that we are in the situation,we are in collectively as pilots in EK and the industry in general.

i e. Put up or shut up.

Are you management wanabees?????

Dune,nicely put,did u get the PM?

10 Rec pilot team resigs,as of today,perhaps Vagrant and DK will take up the slack.

QB

Quod Boy

27th Oct 2004, 23:03

Dung Funnel.

Before you post in future,(whichever "magical" airline you work for,imaginary or not),sort the maths,you look a right to$$er otherwise,my son.

QB

Shake

28th Oct 2004, 04:59

DF,

If you have such a great job in the UK why do you hover around the Middle East forum? There is more to you than meets the eye but like BFD; who cares...

As for the issues of unity, a quick scan will see that a great deal of the 'disunited' posts are not from pilots and those that do have a different take on events at EK are generally appreciated for their right of opinion.

Putting together a list of the changes in T&Cs at EK over the last 5 years in an attempt to dessiminate the 'facts' that Dune refers to in his well put post...any help appreciated.

The Real Pink Baron

28th Oct 2004, 07:33

Just recieved my November roster: 4 (four) days off.
Please tell me its a mistake!!!

millerscourt

28th Oct 2004, 14:52

SecurID

Get a grip on yourself. Even though I have crossed swords with Pontius in the past he was merely poking fun quite harmlessly over the "mistake " made by Pinkie. Hardly a personal attack IMHO and not worthy of your high handed response.

Payscale

29th Oct 2004, 07:23

CrazyCanuc

In all fairness I inform you that I have reported you to the moderator for the following remark

If it wasn't for people like the canadians you would be speaking german. pal. Have some respect.

That was uncalled for. There is no debt of gratitude to be payed. A war was fought in Europe 60 years ago, to avoid to have to fight it in Canada later. You thereby avoided millions of civilian casualities.
Just to set the record straight.

And to think you fly for a multicultural airline. Shame

BYMONEK

29th Oct 2004, 09:03

dungfunnel

I thought you'd given up on this 'Emirates bashing' months ago but you just love winding us all up eh? We'll miss you posts greatly while you're away on holiday, spending your huge wad of cash generated from a spot of day off working.You've said in the past that you turned E.K down as it wasn't for you but your constant presence on this forum dictates to me otherwise. Like a spoilt child,you try to show that your toys are either worth more or are newer than the other childrens and find it a source of amusement to knock our day off rate.I don't rub YOUR face in it that as a charter pilot you have to eat that cottage pie slop with a plastic knife and fork while we get to choose from all 7 courses in first class,served with the finest irish linen. The point is that there is always some good and some bad in every Company and we are all aware,mostly,of what they are,until that is,Companies start changing the goalposts without consultation. Hence the reason for this particular forum.I do,however,agree that the sum offered to us for working a day off is a complete joke.Unskilled Workers in the Uk could pick up the same amount for a days decorating! We don't even get the day off back so i hope that all and i mean ALL pilots in Emirates should say no so the message gets across.The correct number and ratio of Captains and F/O's is what we want....and laptops for our CD ammendments please!
Finally,before your next posting,think carefully before knocking Dubai's employmet laws.Perfect they are not,but Dubai does provide a huge amount of jobs and money ( not £400 /day)For hundreds of thousands of people,which in turn support many thousands of families back in their own Countries.Most of their own Countries are either too poor or corrupt to care otherwise.I'm sure that if you're that concerned by the slave labour here in Dubai,donating a few days off payment to a few well deserving maids and construction workers would be greatly appreciated.Now you've got something to "get out of bed " for! I would,however,save those payments for when you need to give them back to your generous government in the form of increased taxes.You see,with the 160,000 new immigrants that arrived last month alone from the new EU Countries,something tells me you're going to need every penny you've got!
Speak to you soon no doubt.....off to the beach for a free holiday ;)

ironbutt57

29th Oct 2004, 09:04

Wow!:confused: this is starting to sound like the fragrant harbour forum a few years back!!:uhoh:

desert_knight

29th Oct 2004, 20:06

In regards to my previous posts, yes, I have made flippant remarks and generalizations about the Pilot fraternity. But, if I were to search this forum, how many instances would I find of similar treatment of other groups of professionals such as Journalists, Accountants, Managers, Security, Cabin Crew, Passengers, etc, etc? Whilst it does not excuse any offence caused by my comments, I hardly think others in these forums are entitled to claim the moral high ground!

Correct spelling and grammar do not make an argument any more valid than spelling mistakes make an argument invalid. Lord knows, if that was the criteria to post in these forums then there would be very few posts that would qualify.

There has been a suggestion that I suffer from a “pilot dislike”, this is simply not the case. I have immense respect for many of the Pilots I have worked with, they are in many cases, extremely talented and committed co workers. Respect though, is something that is earned; it is not something that comes with a job title or position.

As Dune states, “Pilots deal with facts” and like to maintain “situational awareness”. It appears to me that perhaps this was not applied (by some in this forum) to the thought process when deciding to join Emirates. It should be clear to all that when you join a Middle East Airline as an expatriate that your T&Cs may be changed with very little recourse. You are likely to see Nationals promoted to positions of Management that may be beyond their experience levels. You are likely to have to train a National to take your job one day. It has been that way in this region for many decades so should come as no surprise to anyone who did any research prior to accepting a position here.

Responsible Management of any company in any indusrty (that hopes to continue to be profitable) must react to changing market conditions, control costs and increase productivity. It should be obvious to all by looking at the current demise of numerous US carriers as to what happens if you try and expand without ensuring you do this.

Instead of suggesting methods that will actually add to the Airlines current problems, why not put your collective talents to work by making suggestions as to how these cost savings and efficiencies in productivity can be achieved in a way that would be acceptable to all sides. So far I have read nothing as to how you think this should be done, remembering that status quo is really not an option in a competitive environment – unless, of course, you are keen to see eventual contraction and job losses.
Since you all seem fairly confident that EK management will be reading this thread (and you suggest that this is the only place you can address them) then post your alternate solutions here.

If you are being given illegal rosters then your course of action is easy, if not, then how do they compare to the rest of the industry in general? I would be interested to know.

CF,

By the way, when they change the contract from its original, and since there are no legal labour laws in Dubai, you are bound by your home country laws, so you are protected when it comes time to go to court...

Are you saying there are no labour laws in the UAE or that they are not legal??!

I am sure that this will come as big shock to many companies who have ben operating under the UAE Labour Laws!

max AB

30th Oct 2004, 05:34

Hey Pay Scale...when you declare a sense of humour failure, start with a "mayday".

Payscale

30th Oct 2004, 06:27

When did WWII and humour have anything to do with eachother.

I dont like the canucs ubermensch attitude.

Shake

30th Oct 2004, 08:33

Perhaps we should get back to the point of this thread and the adverse effect that these changes in combination with previous 'T&C ammendments' will make to our lives once fully implimented.

This is a serious issue and I hope we can avoid being side tracked and keep focused.

Left Coaster

30th Oct 2004, 14:00

Can anyone tell why it seems that there is a simmering dislike of things Canadian here? I seem to see lots of off the cuff remarks directed towards our Canadian "brothers" in this thread, what gives guys? Enquiring minds need to know...:{

Check 'Six'

30th Oct 2004, 15:59

Start another thread about Canadians, Australians etc....

We should be receiving a revised FCN with "positive"changes any day now! I do not have any details about the changes.

Hope it's good.

Check your Six

Yossarian

30th Oct 2004, 18:39

Let's get back on track. If you are feeling picked on because of your nationality or religion, start another thread.

The situation at EK has taken a major negative turn with this latest FCN. 15 years ago the salary was good because of all the uncertainties in the area. The UAE is pushing hard to be one of the brotherhood of major civilizations and has done well, therefore our salary has not gone up. This latest FCN has only proved how far behind any first world nation they actually are. How they envisage keeping recruitment going at the standard and rate required is beyond me, and I can only see a slide downwards.

The door is open for negative changes and if any of my mates wanted to join I would be hesitant in recommending EK.

Morale is a fragile thing and it would have taken nothing to leave it at the low point it was. This change has ripped the bottom out of it as far as I can see and the next few months will be the proof of that. It is unbelievable that this is not obvious.

As a footnote, I would like to state that I enjoy my job and love what I do, but that when it comes to long term security, I am concerned with where EK is headed. This concern in the environment we work in can only change the future as I see it. If EK truly wants to be a global player, then it cannot afford to rely on short term staff as the majority of my friends and I now see ourselves.

BYMONEK

30th Oct 2004, 20:42

Several points stand out in this new pay change.Firstly,i'd liked to have called it a 'pay deal' but unfortunately the reference to the word 'deal' implies that both managment AND pilots agreed.Sadly
the latter had no say whatsoever in the outcome.Nothing new there then.Having this new imposition has obviously upset many people not least because many see themselves being set up for a pay cut.Not only that,but the possibilities of many more days of manually input stanbys,previously at cost to the Company,now may cost us a few less days off a month.The carrot of Dhs 800 to work on a day off,is quite frankly,an insult to our profession especially as we don't even get that day off back again.( F/O's get even less!).I do agree that awarding 3.5 hrs credit per day of leave is 'unproductive' but what about the rest.How can anyone in their right mind consider deadheading to be unproductive? We save the Company Hotel costs,allowances and we're back at base sooner ready to work again. Some Airlines actually pay MORE for deadheading as it saves them money AND is more productive. Simulators not productive? Fine,please tell the GCAA that the Company has nothing to gain from these pointless sessions so no more sim for me over the next 20yrs or so. Pilot recruitment? Lets leave it to an outside agency to do.No productivity gain using pilots,eh?Erm,Just ask B.A. that one and see what a mess that ended in!As for CRM,we could hardly expect to get credit for something that the Company doesn't follow itself,like COMMUNICATIONS,or SITUATIONAL AWARNESS,or LEADERSHIP SKILLS.
You see,not only do we not get flight pay,unlike most other Majors,We are now expected to save in other areas while the profits increase.Time will tell whether i'm being depressingly pessimistic or just opening my eyes to the cuts that lay ahead.There are,however, things we CAN do. Use Forums like this to inform the aviation community of T & C's. Advise friends not to join if you think it's not in their interest.Or,for those that love to keep qouting that bloody FOM,why don't we report for duty at STD -60 mins.How can we 'Legally' brief the Cabin Crew at STD -70 when we havn't even reported officially?
When i joined here,i felt prouder than i ever have in my carreer.Emirates has the potential to remain one of 'THE' Airlines to work for so come on Managment,don't screw this up.Make us proud and keep us proud.Before you lose us forever!:sad:

Left Coaster

31st Oct 2004, 02:20

Well, YOU started it! Somewhere up above in this thread a mention of naive "Canadians" was made, and quite without any reason as to what the burr up your A$$ really is with them, so how about it never should have been there at all (don't ya think?) Keep it real.:{

Pontious

31st Oct 2004, 12:10

Millerscourt.

Thanks for the back up. I was only trying to take some of the heat out of a 'high energy' thread. SecureID has a dry, almost sarcastic, sense of humour at the best of times. As 'Pinkie' hasn't 'corrected' his post, I shall delete mine as it caused such offence and showed me to be highly unprofessional. Once again thanks for the support.

SecureID.

You owe me a beer for that uneccessary broadside! Now go throw yourself off a barstool... again!!!

Back to the thread issues. The worsening pay and conditions 'rumour' at Emirates may be having an effect. I arrived back in DXB this morning to open my emails and found that yet another friend of mine has decided to stay in the UK and decline an offer of an interview with Emirates because of what he and the other 3 considers to be a 'crap package' coupled with poor Command prospects. This is the 4th guy in 6 weeks and they are for F/O positions. What next? 2nd Officers?

:ok: :ok:

BigGeordie

31st Oct 2004, 17:47

If you have a good close look at the FOM you will find referneces to Second Officers have started to appear.....

Payscale

1st Nov 2004, 11:36

They are the guyes with two stripes..Cadets. Right?

albatross2004

1st Nov 2004, 12:07

Vow.

Interesting reading all the drivel about CENTS. So all you EK drivers are in Dubai to milk EK as much as possible. And when the management takes decisions based on prudent economics you selfish lot go overboard. When will you ungrateful lot say Thank You to Emirates for where you are today.....accelerated commands and so on. Has it ever crossed your mind where you would have been ( now in the left seats ) if you were not helped by the bias and prejudice of your compatriots in EK recruitment. Most of you are from bankrupt airlines ( charters etc.) and have made Emirates a cool retreat and by GOD you so jealously guard recruitment. If you are being meted unfair treatment by the management then why don't you leave, now that you have the experience provided by the opportunity given you by EK to get commands ( better & higher equipments in the case of ex-capts. and 1st timer Capts.) that you would have slogged for had you stayed in your previous employments.

And before you take turns to say that I am saying so because I did not make the grade, I turned down the offer after reading your mindset here on pprune. I don't want to be part of such a selfish fraternity. SHAME.

Happy Landings.:cool: :ok:

Dumpvalve

1st Nov 2004, 15:22

What do you know - Albie's back and grinding that same old axe! For the uninitiated - Albatross2004 has on numerous occasions accused EK recruiting of racial bais (see previous threads on the subject).
As you can see, it doesn't matter what the topic of the thread is, he will get his soapbox out and hammer the recruiting process. Which makes his last paragraph not very believable. Vow.

BYMONEK

1st Nov 2004, 16:00

Albatross 2004

Firstly,thank you for telling us that you turned Emirates down. I imagine that most people who read your post would have thought otherwise due to the its bitter and spiteful tone.I'm sure i will not be the only one to reply,however,if you really are a professional pilot as you say you are,then i feel it necessary to make a response.
I don't think there is one single pilot here who is out to " MILK EK". We have all decided to work here for one reason or another,perhaps as you say,the lure of new big equipment , shorter time to commands, lifestyle,job security or whatever.The main concern of people here is when the T & C's are changed.You state that MOST of us come from now defunct charter Airlines.Wrong.Yes there were quite a few from Australia and from Canada3000 and ,yes ,a few from Swissair or Swiss or whatever it is/was!
MANY people joined here with the promise of accelerated command but this has since changed. Should we be grateful for that?MOST of us have given up good jobs ( already left seat). MOST of us came from very good Airlines that are still flying.
MOST of us can see with our own eyes that screwing Companies into the ground only screws us.Just ask our Australian friends here.Once bitten,twice shy.Unlike most other Airlines,Emirates is thriving.Our target this year is 50% greater than the previous and we made 10 weeks profit share on that.So,as for prudent economics, they're not a valid argument.If we don't make target but still make a thumping profit,we are entitled to nothing.Should we still be grateful?
Well,i'll be very disappointed if i don't get profit share but not ungrateful.You see,we have already received a letter from our EVP stating that they have reconsidered their policy on Deadheading productivity. They have assured us that we should not see any loss to our salary or lifestyle.Time will tell because if there is,people,as you say,should and WILL leave.
This forum may or may not have had an impact on that decision.
One decision it did have an impact on,however,was your decision not to come.Not because you didn't want to work for Emirates, but rather you didn't want to be a part of such a selfish fraternity.
SHAME.......i might have enjoyed flying with you,NOT! :E

Shake

1st Nov 2004, 16:56

The Bitter and Twisted (Albatoss0000) aside, there has been a back down of sorts re the origins of this thread. It still remains to be seen if, despite our strong opinions, how the changes will pan out in 'real life'.

It is strange how 'change' is more difficult for us the pilots than the management who instigate the change...I for one have not come across anyone who has 'welcomed' any of the recent changes, MOST do not like them...expect strong opinions to remain.

Quod Boy

1st Nov 2004, 19:03

Albatross.

Are you certain,it wasnt you who designed,our latest Ts and Cs,that WE as EK pilots wish to discuss??You sound familiar??Do you own an anorak,and a set of binoculars??

You are a bitter and twisted soul,and Im afraid,I dont buy your "I didnt accept the job" nonsense.

Many,myself included gave up good jobs in stable airlines,I wasnt charter,but I think the charter lads are bloody good operators in general,and for you to believe otherwise shows you for the loser you obviously are.I can only assume you are above charter,in your present job,whatever that may be.As for those,who lost their jobs,well,how unfortunate,and I only hope Im not in that unenviable position.EK have provided,many,many pilots with a new start,but that doesnt mean to say we as a group cannot,discuss,our livelihoods,openly amongst ourselves.

Now,back to business,already a U turn on dead heading,which is a definite step in the right direction,for us all,at least there has been some positive reflection,on an otherwise grim set of conditions.Let the whining continue,its our only channel,and it does no harm.

Dune,unable to access your PM,mate.

Off for a few beers,having just added more "time" and "experience",for my CV.QB::ok: :cool:

sluggums

1st Nov 2004, 20:59

Yep, good to see the turnaround on the Deadheading.

Just need to sort out the Classroom and Sim stuff now.

Have to agree that leave shouldn't count, as for Reserves...........hmmmm not sure about that one.

Actually thought the letter from A al R was quite good, however expect that TCAS had a large part in it.

It was nice to see a reasoned reply from the management, maybe a view of things to come?:ok:

Uplink

2nd Nov 2004, 01:40

It never fails to amaze me how individuals like you Albatross can make comments and inputs on a section of this forum where you dont even work or belong.

You dont work for EK by your own admission. You say that you turned the job down (Really?) Yet you still come on here and slag OUR company off. You obviously have some issues, or is it the basic psychology of an individual that is now kicking himself for his poor decision making. A decision based on comments made on this forum.

So tell me because I am maybe missing something here. What makes a person who doesnt work for EK or even work in the Middle East come on to this forum and start making comments and inputs on something they have no right to make comments on. The only thing this tells me is that you let other people make decisions for you. Therefore by right you should NOT be here. So maybe the recruitment dept did their job properly. As all people here are prospective capts and it seems you cant make decisions for yourself, you dont belong here. Should you even be flying aircraft? Now run along to your own forum !

You sad people !

bus canuck

2nd Nov 2004, 02:56

Where is this letter about new changes? I just check my portal...nothing there.:confused:

Uplink

2nd Nov 2004, 04:00

Bus

Letter in drop file. Its a hard copy

bus canuck

2nd Nov 2004, 05:21

OK. Thanks!:ok:

druckmefunk

2nd Nov 2004, 06:51

So what's the general consensus.

Is this going to appease the masses or should there be more consessions.

I for one will not be working any days off, unless of course it benefits me to do so. Additionally, I am inclined not to be answering my phone on reserve days if I am not being paid for it.

dmf

The Real Pink Baron

2nd Nov 2004, 08:28

Pontius, Sorry about the delay in replying, I was down on the beach. Thanks for your concern, no I was not upset at all, in fact I had a good laugh. I thought I could do a short post without using the spell check. I now know better.
Guys lets not lose our sense of humor it's about all we have left.
The only person that upsets me on this forum is Desert-Knight.
DMF lets have some suggestions on what we can do (positive please)

druckmefunk

2nd Nov 2004, 09:39

PB

We only have three ways to express our concern

1. Write to the managment and express your concerns in a constructive manner

2. Call in sick when you are rostered in a manner you believe to be prejudicial

3. Look for another job.

I can't think of any other ways to tackle the problem can you?

dmf

Check 'Six'

2nd Nov 2004, 09:50

Gents I have recently gone into the office and met with the new boss. My impressions:

He is a gentleman who is very willing to engage in dialogue with all of our concerns.

Adel Al Redha is now trying to show a more positive side towards the pilots.

I know that the last two meetings were very frustrating for us. Maybe the meetings are something of the passed. Why dont we try a more personal approach by either writting in to either Stealey or Al Redha directly by email or post. Furthermore the option of going in and seeing the bosses may be even more beneficial.

Regards

Check Six

:ok:

donpizmeov

2nd Nov 2004, 11:24

Fully agree with Six on this one. Witnessed AAR have a chat with one of the fellas in the CBC before a flight not long after the pay cut was announced, and then out came the letter addressing the topic of that conversation...the pay for deadheading. Think its time we get off our arses and politely voice our concerns.
The deadheading decision is a major step forward, but until the issue of reserve is taken care of, we are still facing an uncertain future re days off etc. As an example, my NOV roster has just shy of 100hrs credit, 8 days off, but still 3 reserve days!!! Hope this is not a sign of things to come!!!
As an amendment to one of the posts above, pay for leave was 2.5hrs per day, pay for SIM reserve etc, is/was 3.5hrs per day.
Don't be too quick to let this go. This was what you were told you were going to be payed when you decided to join EK. The removal of this from your credit towards pay, as well as the reduced credit towards pay for short sector flights (no longer 3.5hrs for MUC BAH etc) still means a pay cut. So far I have not heard of any other group of employees within the EK group taking a pay cut. It is all well and good for people like Desert Knight to say we should take in on the chin and stop complaining, but I wonder what he would think if it was him taking the cut to fund the bigger profit, while no one else in the company has to.
DON.

Quod Boy

2nd Nov 2004, 11:36

Guys,
Check Six is correct,we must open a DIALOGUE with Capt S,Im sure he wrote that letter,hes prepared to reasonI believe,it was conciliatory,in its tone,Ive not seen that lately.

Perhaps,the measures introduced were already in the "pipeline",before he joined??

If we ALL write an email/letter,politely,professionally and without venting anger,he will surely recognise,the level of concern,and he will have to address it,already this has happened,with DH??

My concern is Standby,and not being credited,fairly,I will lose all overtime this month,under the new system as I have reserve duties,and leave.Yet Im doing almost 100 hrs.

IF,and it remains IF,ADs and STBY are used to "pad" out,then thats bad news.Lets give our new boss a chance,but if no one complains,how can he react???

QB:confused: :confused: :cool:

desert_knight

2nd Nov 2004, 17:40

At last, the discussion is heading in a sensible direction! Glad to see it moving on from the "If they screw me, I'm gonna screw everyone" mentality.

Despite what many of you might think, I do not want to see anyone in this company get a raw deal. However I do take exception to colleagues who would suggest that the hard work of others be wasted by deliberate excess fuel burn and such like.

Good luck in your endeavors to reach a sensible compromise.

:ok:

mini cooper

2nd Nov 2004, 18:01

Perhaps,the measures introduced were already in the "pipeline",before he joined??

Is he / was he ( Cpt S) not able to voice his opnion before the changes were published? He has been here long enough now to be able to speak up! Maybe he agrees with the changes? If so do you really think he will listen to reason?
I would like to know his opinion but somehow don't think I will ever get to hear what he really thinks.

Oh well that's emirates for you.

PS Sorry to hear that Shk Z has passed away.

albatross2004

3rd Nov 2004, 00:06

A suggestion to all EK drivers.

How about ceasing all cribbing regarding the FCN and rationalisation of your T & Cs by the management, especially in this hour of UAE's grief and bereavement on the sad demise of
HRH Sheikh Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahyan the President, who undoubtedly was the uniting force for the UAE.

May ALLAH rest his soul in peace. Ameen.

Shake

3rd Nov 2004, 08:49

A suggestion to the pious Albatosser0000, respect everyone and leave this site alone.

ahmedette

3rd Nov 2004, 10:05

Couldn't agree more Shake.

I would have thought it some what inappropriate for the "tosser" to try and associate this topic with the unfortunate demise of the UAE leader. Still, it's in line with most of his drivel.

Mick Jagger

5th Nov 2004, 13:01

How long must we endure the ravings of this sicophantic halfwit. After joining in the discussion with complete drivel he then blames us for disrespecting HH Shiekh Zayaed. This MUST be time to show this idiot the door!!!

tgdxb

21st Nov 2004, 07:24

forgive me for this statement but doesn't this sound like a minority of people trying to pull the whole crew behind them... unsuccessfully?

critical winge

15th May 2006, 22:03

Would it really be worth your while to work a day off for the few Dhms you would be paid, especdially now it has risen to such high amounts. Positives of course are a few notes in your pocket for a lost nights sleep, what if you are a Captain and you are working a waiting FO upgrade position as a Captain in waiting. What if you work, so as to not need a recruitment drive supported by a welcoming package to newbies. Its in your hands.

Hey 4 HP how about another of your polls on, would or wouldn't you work a day off in EK.

Waiting for Captain Americas answer that we should all work as many days off as possible, especially if you have 42 days avaliable that you are not flying!:rolleyes:

davidletterman

15th May 2006, 23:32

Wow, english is obviously not a requirement to join EK...

kiwi_r4

16th May 2006, 00:19

:rolleyes:

Chill

16th May 2006, 00:50

Musta just come back from a back-of-the-clock, minimum rest, day off call-up - still incoherant from the shock :eek:

chinawladi

16th May 2006, 10:45

Konfuzius says:
"It's unwise to bite the hand that feeds you. But if it holds good and poisonous grains, eat the good and stick the others up somewhere else."
Money for days off is poisonous.

Lite Bulb

16th May 2006, 12:04

Viru$, you do no one any favours working days off for pittance. You think it helps your cause. You will only get something back if you can be spared and the situation now is so desperate they have nothing to spare. They are now so short of crew that our phones go off every days off. Crewing have an awful job to do and the situation is not their fault, meanwhile the bosses above think everything is hunky dorey and add the manpower savings to the better side of their budget thus adding to their performance bonus. The situation will never improve if pilots work days off. We need more crews and more upgrades.

puff m'call

16th May 2006, 12:16

Lite Bulb you are so right, anyone who works a day off is a tosser. If you rely on day off payments to live then you need financial help!

Read the above statement again if you are thinking of working another day off, you help no one, in the long run it will make things worse. := Don't do it.

IronWalt

16th May 2006, 15:41

Who is Captain Americas????

uplock

16th May 2006, 17:38

Captain America or B.M. as he affectionately known (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224733&page=7)

http://web.syr.edu/~jocarey/Destination/images/Captain%20America.jpg

BigGeordie

16th May 2006, 18:53

In the past, for other employers, I have worked days off to cover last minute charters and so on- and been well rewarded for it. Here it is not to cover late changes and the unexpected but just to cover the normal day to day operation and the rewards are pitiful. The situation will never improve until the people right at the top realise they don't have enough crew and do something about it. Working a day off just makes the problem worse. Just say no! (Or don't answer the phone....)

Roster Change

17th May 2006, 03:46

Having a good working relationship with folks in crew control, and not just Emirates, but in any airline, benefits both crewing and crew.

Good rapport can have a win win situation for both parties. A pilot may need that special day off that he is unable to swap for and flying from a day off may not only be financially rewarding, but guarantee he gets his sons/daughter/wife's birthday off.

Alphaprot

17th May 2006, 06:08

RC, thanks for stating the blindingly obvious. This is what we have done for many years and generally it has worked, although stacked in favour of rostering's needs.
However, we are now at a position, that if we continually solve managements problems and lack of planning by working days off, we will never get the problem fixed. They have a habit of pushing the limits, just when we are used to being asked virtually every day off to do a trip, they will next insist that we have to work any time they see fit.
Management in this company are a bit like dogs, you have to be consistent with them if you are going to improve their behaviour.
Woof!

Zomp

17th May 2006, 09:40

both captains on 203 the 18th were called on their days off and accepted it, that shows how united we are in EK, guess we just deserve beeing shafted all the time

Yossarian

17th May 2006, 10:21

As far as I know, there have been crewing problems with the last few 203s. Guys are continuing to help out on off days or accept last minute changes.

chinawladi

17th May 2006, 10:43

RC: Helping under insufficient crewing is nothing more than giving hand to cover up incompetent planning. Good working relationship only function with adequate conditions, otherwise we're paying for some careless jerks.
As it is today, you're simply paying for your loved ones birthday off.......

(by the way: Just read Ed's post on the portal-mail. I'd love to believe that less and less pick up the phone and that this is a desperate measure to still cover all flights. But I'm sure, because it's now Super Ed calling, lots of Captain Americas in spe will hit the keys...........)

critical winge

17th May 2006, 15:47

Would like to add that crewing do a GREAT JOB with limited resources, well done, this is not a ploy to make your lives harder, far from it.
:D I wouldn't want to do your job with as few resources as we have in our job>:confused:
UPLOCK, really like the pic.:D For those in the know THAT IS BM Aka Captain America without a doubt. AWESOME pic.:ok: For those not in the know, look at previous threads to see the UNMASKED BM.

harry the cod

17th May 2006, 21:49

Zomp

You are correct. The 203 had no Captains until only several hours before with one of the skippers coming onto this straight after sick leave. So desperate are they that crewing agreed to a week off after the trip.

Okay, I will put up my hand and admit that I have worked on a day off before. Once, last year and that's been it. I did not, however, negotiate 7 days off after as I know that's screwing my mates. When people do things like that, they may well be helping short term but it's not until 'flagship' flights such as EK203 remain grounded that the Company will recruit the correct number of Pilots. Working on your day off and stating terms will, without doubt, involve roster changes for others and has a knock on effect which can last for days.

I'm NOT militant and want the best for Emirates BUT, it really is time for the management to get a grip and employ more Pilots. To do that involves offering salaries that will attract. When the Company appears to be focused as it is on more profit and productivity, it makes you wonder if the guys at the very top are being fed the truth. Current sham regarding upgrades that DON'T comply with the holy grail that is the FOM reflects the face saving that is crippling this Company.

Harry

IronWalt

18th May 2006, 03:38

The company pays you good money and provides good equipment and tools to help them make the business go forward. Sometimes people screw up in scheduling. Help them out people. It is not a sin to help out the people who provide you a salary and way of living. Quit thinking about yourselves all the time.

And I am speaking about any normally well run company. It is a BUSINESS. Not your personal flying club. Even though it seems like it sometimes.

Nuff said,

Walt

Yossarian

18th May 2006, 03:58

Good grief, Walt! You related to BM?

IronWalt

18th May 2006, 04:01

gj18457

18th May 2006, 05:27

No I just remember when I had work ethic that got wittled down by working for the worst carrier here in the US and a union that did nothing for us. I am regaining that work ethic. It is what makes your career go forward.

It was you pathetic yanks that put yourselves in the situation you now find yourselves in.Dont come to our neck of the woods with your HMG views.You are not welcome and never will be.

Schnowzer

18th May 2006, 05:38

Walt,

Scheduling have not screwed up! A systematic decisions was taken 3 years ago that it was cheaper to work the pilots to maximum hours in overtime than to employ more pilots. Sadly, they forgot that if you work people harder, on the type of flying we do, they get fatigued or sick.

Then the real rub, they had decided not to budget for long term sickness because it made the numbers look better. Now they are being caught with their pants down and are asking scheduling and the crews to fix it. 4 years ago guys would have helped out in a heartbeat. Now, because of the credit rule changes (training etc not counting for productivity) few people feel they have an incentive to help.

If they help they do not get paid for it quite often. A full months block in the remaining 2 weeks of a month without triggering overtime seems not to be uncommon. More importantly it allows the guy in charge of pilot resourcing to prove that he hasn't really screwed the pooch. Worse still, some of the guys that do help, ask scheduling to promise the earth for the swap and the knock on effect is that they screw their buddies.

IXNAT

18th May 2006, 10:09

It was you pathetic yanks that put yourselves in the situation you now find yourselves in.Dont come to our neck of the woods with your HMG views.You are not welcome and never will be.

Real Nice Alice. Let's see it was the pilots' fault that Braniff, Eastern, Ozark, TWA, People's Express, Continental, America West, United, Delta, Northwestern and more have either disappeared or entered into bankruptcy. At one point some of these were the most profitable in the world, but it was all the pilots' fault and especially because they were US pilots. So to follow your logic, these airlines' difficulties were the fault of the pilots, and if your logic continues to hold, perhaps you should be happy with the way management at EK is treating you, mismanaging staffing, covering up shortfalls in training, bringing in DECs. That way you will not have to go back to the little avaition world you came from and you can continue to play with the big boys in your shiney new jet. So be happy, the only way an airline can fail is by the pilots demanding what is fair and equitable, by your logic. So, if you don't want to be out a job and have to go back to your little homeland aviation world, you had better fly overtime, be happy with your lot, not complain about a 7% pay raise, fly over 900 hours a year, be happy that your upgrade will be delayed because some DECs come in on top of you. Or you might just be happy flying that ATR72.
IXNAT

Fart Master

18th May 2006, 11:56

whoop whoop BM alert:=

gatvol2006

18th May 2006, 14:28

WALT:ugh: You are obviously one of the outcasts from the US, and most probably a DC as well. You have obviously not been through the EK mill. I'll give you a year or 2 and your tune will be changed, hang in the positive bro, Americans for money (otherwise you would'nt be here?!!)

IronWalt

18th May 2006, 14:38

Ummmmm,

Is it really as bad as that. Maybe I have been out of the game a little too long. I got screwed by a pathetic give away union that has allowed RJs to take all of our mainline flying thus screwing me out of recall so far. They have also given away our retirement and a host of other things.

I have been out of the cockpit for 3 years on furlough and maybe I have taken a too pollyanna view.

In my current job we either serve the client or we do not eat. That is the other extreme. And I am probably bringing it back with me to the cockpit.

Alphaprot

18th May 2006, 14:56

Walt the difference is
Record profits every year
More work every year, now up to and over the legal 900 hour limit
Less time off every year
Less communication by management every year
Rampant inflation every year
Cost of rental housing up 31% this year according to papers
Reduction in T&C's every year
Reduction in equivalent salary every year
Did I mention the :mad: record profits every year
Just as I have no idea what you are going through, neither do you have a clue what is going on here. Apples with apples, mate

IronWalt

18th May 2006, 15:03

What has REALLY screwed up the market are these RJ Jet Weenies. I am an experienced major carrrier guy with 10K hours and almost every type rating in the fleet. And because of these 20 something RJ kiddies, the employers think we should all work 20K USD a year and no benes.

That is one reason I have sat out

click

18th May 2006, 19:17

For whatever it's worth, we had a situation at Cheesy Airlines here in 2004 similar to what you guys are going through...however it was only for about a year and a half. The knock off effects are still being felt through the system now. What we learned...money isn't everything and you can't maintain this tempo indefinitely without side effects....including family life. We had one guy down for over a year with a near cardiac, now he's got a stent. Another sim instructor in hospital because of too many hours in the box being scheduled and no replacement, he went until he dropped. Off flying work for six months. It just ain't worth it. Now that we are back to normal and the guys are spending more time at home, all of a sudden, we've got a miniature baby boom. Lots of us are pushing baby carriages:E . And lots of us are also looking for other jobs, things are looking a little dicey with this fast and convoluted expansion. :( might have to go elsewhere to make a living but looking at all the contributions gives me the heeby jeebies and a wilting willy.
:ugh:

tarjet fixated

19th May 2006, 00:54

Click...Prague?CSA?I guess money is nothing in your case.....
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=g5yxnbznwu1mejef829e84k28f3u7ktheeyqhj2x2r85 zcav48y

OLD MAN

19th May 2006, 03:16

Hello!
International definition regarding a day off: a day off, no one is requried to work. . We can fullfill our contract and that is what we are paid for. Off days is ours and nobody can touch them.
You can find the definition on manyweb sites. Mean while what are we doing, trying to help the company as much possible. and we are loosing, while companynisnaeachinw hen things(results)shows negative
I have no further commemts

Alphaprot

19th May 2006, 14:30

Tough about the record profits and not really being compensated about it. That is the difference, if we were hemorrhaging money, then cuts and errosion of package could be understood, but we ain't. Its pure pharking Greed

gj18457

19th May 2006, 14:57

IXNAT

19th May 2006, 21:19

Alice Alice who the F*** is Alice.Sorry just reminded me of a song I used to sing while I was flying my ATR .Gee ixnat I dont recall you superstars of aviation complaining about your mismanagement when you used to get paid twice as much as anyone ellse.Whats happened ? Now you are in the middle east for 5 minutes and your an expert on how not to run a company and tell the rest of us how lucky we are.Now I'll just toddle of to my own little world back in GA.Where's my 401k statement.Shout as loud as you like on PPRUNE because in the real world nobody's listening.

Just a term of endearment, there Alice. If you would get your head out of your third brown eye, then you would realize that the pilots of most of the majors in the US have been complaining about mismanegemnt for years. But probably in your little world of aviation you didn't pay much attention. My point is that the same complaints you have at EK are the same complaints that most of the US pilots have complained about for years. Never said I was an expert at how to run your company, just you are complaining about what you said ruined US aviation. Not shouting, just don't talk out of both sides of your face about an aviation world in the US you have no clue about. And if you did come from that US aviation world, and making the statements you did how the pilots ruined the companies, you are a bigger idiot than you previous statements proves you are.

IXNAT

Ghostflyer

20th May 2006, 06:00

IXNAT,

The good news for EK is that US managers are starting to come here with comments like:

Why would you ever do it that way, at US Air (United)(Delta)(Et al) we did it this way.......

We'll all be saved.........it will be just like WWII over again.:oh:

SecurID

20th May 2006, 08:09

IXNAT

20th May 2006, 12:51

Yep, we sure will be. In fact EK has now officially changed it's name to 'Eagle Squadron' and our callsign is now 'Eagle.'

Conspiracy theory No. 348: Do you think that the Upper Management knew about the American invasion a long time ago? Otherwise why change all Management titles to VP, SVP. EVP etc...?

You don't seem to understand. Every airline needs about 100+ VPs, SVPs, etc. Makes it seem that upper mgmt is trying to do something.

Ghostflyer

21st May 2006, 03:29

Ah, but we've got 1400 if one of our bretheren is to be believed!:}

Dune

21st May 2006, 09:46

Haven't had a chance to post for a while but thought I would give my 2 cents worth on the issue of working days off.
Personally I have not flown a single day off or allowed rostering to make a single change to my roster in over 2 years. Part of the reason is the bull$hit "cost neutral" changes to the terms and conditions of our contract along with insufficient compensation for the industry leading productivity (and profits) we provide to this company; part is my disgust for how the management have totally dropped the ball on pilot career management within EK (f/o upgrades, DEC's, seniority, etc); part is a recognition that the current situation we are in with respect to pilot manning levels was planned at the highest levels and they are now expecting us to cover up for their incompetence; and part is nothing more than a survival instinct in that if I have to be with this organization for "x" number of years I need to pace myself to not become another EK medical statistic.
For the life of me I have a really hard time understanding why guys would give up a day off for the pittance the company gives you. Perhaps those who are blinded by the "incredible" amount of money the company offers will be interested in this:
The total amount of flying you are contracted to complete in a given year is 815 hours/year. This is derived as follows:
-7 months x 78 hours/month (546 hours), 4 months x 76 hours/month (304 hours), and 1 month x 70 hours/month (70 hours) = 920 hours/year. Subtract your contractual leave of 42 days x 2.5 hours/day (105 hours) and you are left with a contractual requirement to fly 815 hours/year.
Now take an example of a Captain (step 17; approx 7 years at EK) making 29510/month (all math based upon the old scales). His yearly salary is 354120 dhs. If you do the math the contractual hourly rate is 434.50 dhs/hour. Given this number it is absolutely no surprise that the company has decided to work each pilot into as much overtime as possible (up to the max of 900 hours if possible) because it costs them peanuts. At an overtime rate of 400 dhs/hour this pilot is working for 34.50 dhs/hour ($9.38/hour) above his contractual hourly rate. My son working part time at MacDonald’s on weekends makes almost as much as I do working overtime for this company! Any wonder why I refuse to do it?
We know that in the past the company would build a roster to the contractual limit (78/76/70 hours/month) and then rely on crew scheduling to fill the unassigned flying via phone calls to pilots requesting them to work overtime on days off. When that started to prove unsuccessful, they switched to compulsory overtime built into every roster. However even with this change there still is unassigned flights daily.
As a consequence of the mismanagement of the manning levels, the new plan is for Capt. Ed to email us with the unassigned flights and hope we will fall over ourselves volunteering to fly them? But wait, didn't they increase the overtime by 15.4%? Shouldn't I be speed dialing crew scheduling to get those juicy overtime hours on my day off?? Oh good, now I can do some new math with the new numbers. Same Captain now makes 7% more with the pay rise (31575/month or 378900/year). Divided by 815 = 464.90/hour. New overtime rate 460/hour............lets see.....now I get to go and work overtime on my day off and I am getting 4.90 dhs LESS than my contractual rate. :ok:
Bottom line is I refuse to work days off under this sort of scheme. If Capt Ed wants to pay me what my son gets for working overtime at MacDonald’s (time and a half; double time on statutory holidays) then I might consider it. Until then I will leave it to the suckers in this company to further prostitute themselves in the belief that the greater good of Emirates is worth their health, marriages and families.
Cheers

Alphaprot

21st May 2006, 11:08

Spot on Dune and of course your hourly rate does not take into account the company contribution on our basic, which means we are getting even more shafted on our 0/T rate.

pissedoffpilotek

21st May 2006, 11:14

are you saying that no matter what you would never work on a day off.
how about if you make a deal!
eg...jfk for ccu, cmb, ruh, and dam....guess what you also end up with 7 days off after the jfk flight. I will only do it if it suits me...but that is a far better deal. I would never pick up the **** i have traded in though...that is definitely not worth it.
It is not always about helping them out but looking after no 1

Vorsicht

21st May 2006, 11:36

Further to your post, if you look at our senior captains, some of who have been here 17 years, the overtime pay is a paltry fraction of their contracted rate. I agree with you completely. Until they come up with a proper overtime rate that is transparent and tied to our contractual rate, they can bash it.

Pissedoffpilotek

You do whatever you have to do, but dont fool yourself into thinking you are having a win by doing that.
Do you think it is a coincidence that you get offered a JFK and swap it with a ccu etc?
Of course it isn't.
Scheduling know they arent going to get someone to go to CCU on a day off, so they give a JFK or similar to the guy on his day off while the CCU you traded gets thrown at some poor bastard on reserve. So when next you are on reserve and get called to go to Hyderabad at 2am,think of your mate who has swapped it for a JFK.

Dune

21st May 2006, 11:43

pissedoffpilotek:

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying and I have not done so in over 2 years. And I might add not doing so has afforded me a relatively good career here to date with minimal stress. I do my roster and work to the terms of my contract and nothing more/nothing less.

I don't make deals. My feeling is that ultimately my "deal" is just covering up the endemic problems systematically generated by the management of this company. I want no part in trying to hide their serious misjudgments.

If this airline was run as it should be there would be no need for these "deals" currently being offered by crew scheduling. Taking these "deals" ultimately leads to covering up the truth and nothing will be done to address the manning issues until someone takes a fall (starting with C.P.,VP-NC&L).

In my opinion those who work days off or "deal" trips are contributing to the rot that pervades this airline. You may think you are helping yourself short term but I can assure you long term you are doing nothing to improve your T & C's over the long run. With this sort of "prostitution" the true problems will be with us forever.

Just my opinion.

Yossarian

21st May 2006, 14:14

I hear what you guys are saying about making deals or flying on days off. I don't have any spare days off to legally go flying and when rostered to 97.5 hours like I am this month, there is not much room for manouevre.

However, as far as off day pay and overtime rate goes, it is a insult. Pay me my hourly rate from total cost of employment and I may think about it, if I ever have the hours or days off to spare.

Schnowzer

21st May 2006, 17:08

Dune and Vorsicht,

I am with you on this one, the biggest change I have noticed in my time at EK is the lack of time off. I'm not going to give a day up for 460AED/hr. I'm getting old, flying more just makes me older and even copious amounts of alcohol don't give me a full head of hair and a 10" ----.

Pissedoffpilotek,

Look after yourself! You have to accept that sh1t will flow downwards and every 5 months you are at the bottom of the hill! I won't be helping you out, you'll be on your own. 'As much as you gain, you still get the pain!' (Copyright Schnowzer 2006)

LHR Rain

21st May 2006, 17:57

You suckers are completely missing the point. Swap a CMB for a JFK? You arseh#$%s have already volunteered to give up two of your days off and go down to the World Trade center and get in line WITHOUT PAY to get a US visa just so you can go to NY! Yes WITHOUT PAY and now you want to work a day off again? This airline does not have a chance of ever getting anything decesnt with such asteemed pilots leading it. Get Real people!

Dirigible

21st May 2006, 18:17

Geez, LHR you have a way with words don't you. Bet you are a bundle of fun to fly with. My US visa with my previous company was acceptable and I did not have to go anywhere on my days off to get it renewed/revalidated. Would I do a JFK in preference to some awful trip if offerred, hell yes. Would they get a hold of me- no chance my mobile is switched off on days off and I have no land line. Hehe, chill:ok:

pissedoffpilotek

21st May 2006, 18:28

actually guys it was four **** trips for one...same number of hours so no overtime involved...just gave me a block of seven days off. plus got rid off three extra nights out of bed...so i ended up with more days off and less nights out of bed....

halas

22nd May 2006, 05:02

As was said earlier on this thread, the deal's made with crew scheduling have a serious knock-on effect.

The more deals done - the less stable your rosters will be.

The more you look after #1 the more you will get shafted by the all the other #1's out there.

Have a beer for breakfast each day off if it makes your decision making easier:hmm:

halas

Roster Change

22nd May 2006, 08:10

I winder if DUNE will ask for any special favours from crew scheduling before he retires ?

Dune

22nd May 2006, 10:17

Roster Change

No, since my decision to cease working days off or allowing my roster to be screwed with I have not asked them for any favours and and I will not.

It is a matter of principle that I'd like to think some of us in this company still have. I leave the prostituting of ethics to others (you can see who they are in this thread).

ennui

22nd May 2006, 15:32

Hey guys, just a quick question!

I infer that those not answering the phone are all in the Left Hand Seat.

Do you think that not "going the extra yard" by answering the phone on days off will impact unfavourably on those F/O's yet to upgrade!

Just asking because I know that in previous companies I've worked for that these are the sorts of statistics that are looked at when "command readiness" criteria are considered.

alghazal

22nd May 2006, 16:18

I'm reading your posts from down the paradise island of AUH, knowing that, what's happening to you all now, will soon spread down there, and I must say it worries me.

EY rosters are already as stable as HR guys to be trusted.... Days OFF are not a problem yet, people are fighting to get flights, as the average flying is 50 hours monthly.

Anyway, I do agree with the NO TRADE policy a few of you are defending. If they offer to trade JFK for a series of s***t flights, no doubt that the deal is on their side and not in our favor.

Stand Tall, boomerang is coming back.....................quickly !!

I wish I will be there to see all the ME carriers competing for the number of stainless steel flying devices stucked under the sand.....

BYMONEK

22nd May 2006, 20:32

ennui

Absolutely not. There are plenty of F/O's who will not work days off and to be honest, I think crewing are far too busy to start keeping records of who is and who isn't. This is a big Company now and unlike some smaller operators where this practice is common, here it's not.

Many more Pilots would work a day off if the rewards matched the sacrifice but until we start getting a 'going' rate of around 2-3000 dhs, many guys will continue to spend their few days off with the family.

Roster Change

23rd May 2006, 05:49

Irrespective of which airline you work for there are invariably 3 types of pilot crewing have to deal with. The guys who are flexible, the guys in the middle who do the odd favour, and the pilots with zero flexibility within the roster. The last group are ultimately the losers.

kingpost

23rd May 2006, 12:18

Good for you Dune

Do those who work on days off realise that they are indirectly shooting themseles in the foot. Sure the short term 'bucks' are great however you will not receive a decent salary increase, as there is a supply of pilots working the trips, until there is a "real" shortage in the system.

It's simple economics - demand and supply.

Uplink

23rd May 2006, 13:01

Any one remember the guy who put his roster on the board. It had some fairly direct wording on the top of the roster with reference to calling him out on a day off. This was written by crewing to alert the other crewing officers. Cant remember the exact phraseology but it certainly alerted the crewing officers to the reply they would get if they did call him. I believe crewing were given a talking to.

MR8

25th May 2006, 05:10

MC,

I know the guy, and he's a star... wish everyone had the guts he has..

The text said: Do not caal on days off, will not cooperate

As far as I know, this was not put there by rostering, but on his request because he was fed up with the calls on his days off..
Same bloke refused recently to go into discretion on the 201 and walked off the bus.

As for pay out calls, a low cost UK operator had some problems crewing their flights a few years ago, and people were offered 1000 GBP per day working on their days off... At least they recognized that cancelling the flight would cost them a lot more, especially on the long term.
Don't think EK will ever go that way...

MR8

kennedy

25th May 2006, 06:37

It wasn't quite GBP1000 for working a day off, in fact crewing (their name for that department, ) couldn't offer anything for a day off and weren't allowed to call you on day off. ( I know as my girlfriend(now wife) was in that department)

The 1000 pounds came up when they misallocated the leave bids and ran out of crew at the end of the leave year and offered to buy back leave at that rate.

P*ss poor planning, p*ss poor performance! Reminds me of EK as well!:ugh:

PS I believe Virgin pay 500 pounds for a day off callout, with 2 days off in lieu as well

waldorfin

3rd Jun 2006, 13:55

Now I’ve heard it all. Virgin Pay 500 for working on an off day.
Statistics are a funny thing. You may think you are enforcing an argument or a position on an argument however just the contrary is being done. That statistic proves the slanted nature of people posting on this site, if it were true then EK would have planes parked all over the place. The fact is they don’t, reason being, as untenable to some…. people DO!!!! Flock to help the company out by working on off days. A fair indication of the true state of things would be to reverse those statistics. IMHO

Austin Holed

28th Nov 2006, 04:49

145qrh

28th Nov 2006, 04:57

I thought you were going to say that they were going to implement the new Chinese way of handling resignations.....Drawing straws to decide who can leave.....:} :}

chinawladi

28th Nov 2006, 05:32

Emirates Today, 28th November, Business Section, Page 15.
Some selected quotes..
"between 15000 and 20000 job applications a month for pilot positions"
"Our pilots do well with regards to the total package"
and my favourite one to read on one of my 7 days off this month..
"thus, there is no shortage"
:yuk:
Well, I've been here long enough to be able to read between Arab lines. Like this one:
"...the rescue forces were on the scene within 5 minutes..." and as a bystander you were counting 1 hour before they even found the site.
So, let's translate in Arabic!

"...between 15000 and 20000 applications..." means in: take away two zeroes for realistic ones.
"...our pilots do well with regards to the total package..." means: they know it's falling short but couldn't care less as long as all airplanes fly.
"...thus, there is no shortage..." means: they're ******* short, but as long as idiots fly on days off, they're getting away with it.

But I like the mere fact that it pops up in ET. It sort of prepares the local blindsight for a eventual staying on ground of aircraft: means we, the lazy pilots, are set up for being the scapegoats. However the second scapegoat is also in the pipeline. Brace TCAS and Ed, your wallets will not suffer, but your ego's................:E

Boeing 787

28th Nov 2006, 07:29

I have no idea what the truth is (number of applications received), but I do not think that EK has any problems recruiting the required number of pilots by 2010.

Mistah Kurtz

28th Nov 2006, 08:31

Extraordinary!, if what TCAS says is true then given that the number of active Airline pilots in the US is around 102,000, in just five weeks the equivalent of the entire Airline pilot population of the US has applied to join Emirates!! I never knew it was such a desirable company!
True, a 10% pay rise was given last year BUT given that underlying inflation in the UAE is conservatively 15-20% then this doesn't look so attractive anymore. Plus we are all working alot harder with the "cost neutral" (:yuk: ) changes to the credit system and having to the recurrent groundschool etc in our own time.
A very informative article that doesn't really explain why flights are being grounded due to no flightdeck available to fly them, surely one of the 20,000 would be available?

sandkfir

28th Nov 2006, 08:48

Either TCAS was misquoted in yet another outstanding piece of journalism or he is telling porkies. Can't give the direct link to the page but here is the website.

http://www.emiratestodayonline.com/

go to pg 15.

This is just the beginning of a huge media campaign launched to try and bolster the flagging recruitment numbers but I think that by giving a press release to a second rate government mouthpiece TCAS and friends have scored an own goal. If there are 20 000 applications a month why should anyone bother applying? With that many potential candidates terms and conditions can only be eroded further because of all those thousands begging to join.

Word has it that Ed has managed to con a few more of his USA DEC buddies into giving exclusive interviews to US publications to try and regenerate interest. The old "Home boy done good" thing. Look what a pillar of society the last one turned out to be.

Schnowzer

28th Nov 2006, 08:56

The most I ever saw in a week was 200 after Ansett went down the tubes. There was a rumour about Etihad increasing their package to attract personnel but that is a rumour that I have heard every few months since I arrived. Here are the wise man's words:

Emirates has increased the remuneration packages for its pilots by 10 per cent in the past year, according to a senior executive at the airline.

Industry experts say the shortage of talent overall, but especially pilots, in the Middle East is responsible for pushing up wages.

“Generally speaking, there will be a requirement for quite a few pilots over the next few years,” said Captain Alan Stealey, divisional senior vice president of flight operations at Emirates. “The market is becoming tougher for pilots. That is around the fact that there is tremendous expansion, for instance, in the lowcost carriers within Europe, within India and China.

“In the Gulf, there is a massive demand for passenger carriers and thus, the demand for talent is significant.” Commenting on the raise in pilots’ packages, Captain Stealey said: “Rental and education costs in Dubai have gone up. We do provide our captains, for instance, with villas. We look every year at the total package of the airline for the pilot workforce, and then we look at across the industry. Our pilots do well with regards to the total package.” He added that Emirates has an average of 16 to 25 pilots coming through each week and thus, there is “no shortage”.
With the current network of about 1,559 pilots [to fly 94 passenger aircraft], Emirates is looking to recruit about 900 pilots between now and the end of the decade, according to Captain Stealey.

In the fiscal year the airline is in now, Emirates is recruiting 380 pilots.
“It is the biggest ever for the airline because of the size of the delivery. Every aircraft that comes through, on an average, requires between 15 and 20 pilots. This fiscal year we will have recruited and trained 380 pilot,” he said.

Next year, however, Emirates does not have such a large delivery programme for pilots. “It is mainly because of the delay in deliveries of the Airbus A380 aircraft. We are looking at 250 pilots to be recruited next year. That is the rough plan,” explained Captain Stealey.
Furthermore, Emirates claims to receive between 15,000 and 20,000 job applications a month for pilot positions. And with almost “10 per cent” of Emirates’ pilot workforce consisting of UAE nationals, the airline has pilots from more than 76 nationalities, Captain Stealey
http://www.emiratestodayonline.com/Web/Photographs/2006/11/28/015/28_11_2006_015_001_003.jpg
http://www.emiratestodayonline.com/Web/Photographs/2006/11/28/015/28_11_2006_015_001_011.jpg

shawarma

28th Nov 2006, 13:16

7:how much leave is owed to pilots and why cant it be given?

max AB

28th Nov 2006, 13:32

8. Why do pilots have to stick their thumbs up in photos??? I hate that....

donpizmeov

28th Nov 2006, 14:36

Ignoranus: A person who is both stupid and an @sshole.

I am sorry but whenever I hear mention of TCAS or Long Range Ed (Keep that extra fuel for NBO guys!), this word keeps coming into my head.

Don

Soap Box Cowboy

28th Nov 2006, 16:05

Think I know where the number of applicants might be coming from. Probably guys like me with no jet time. Plenty of guys out of school with their heads in the clouds hoping to get in on a ab-initio. Guys with Turbine time hoping to get in with lower requirments. With all the stories going round that Emmirates is desperate for crew and everyone is leaving you can't help but think that some guys are sending in cv's hoping to get on file before the rush starts when the requirments drop.

flareflyer

28th Nov 2006, 16:50

Somebody could inform 7days about the real situation for EK pilots. Maybe nobody knows how hardly we are working........................
Could be interesting to see the reactions.....................................

Plank Cap

28th Nov 2006, 17:47

Good idea FlareFlyer, and after 7 Days have done their bit perhaps Flight International might like to redress the balance with a half page article. That way the truth might be heard a little further afield..........

punkalouver

29th Nov 2006, 01:23

I have no idea what the truth is (number of applications received), but I do not think that EK has any problems recruiting the required number of pilots by 2010.

But what kind of pilots. I know someone who went there after failing numerous upgrades to captain and on new aircraft and having several incidents. One of the guys who did sim with him said he couldn't fly out of a wet paper bag. Are they checking peoples backgrounds or do they not care?

turtleneck

29th Nov 2006, 10:41

next time crew control calls me on a day off telling me they're "desperate", i have to consider them liars. or would it eventually be the old brit lying?
at least my choice is quickly made: no to cc and yes concerning tcas.

orangutan

27th Jan 2007, 18:28

I've seen many posts urging people not to fly on their days off and to refuse overtime. Yet, I've also seen nearly as many talking about manual insertion of trips and forced overtime. Can anyone clarify? Is there actually any choice at Emirates about accepting overtime or not? :confused:
Many thanks

dusty777

27th Jan 2007, 19:13

No Choice as My roster was built to exceed 90 hours stick time or in excess 110 duty:sad: :zzz:

Oblaaspop

28th Jan 2007, 05:52

I think a bit of clarification is in order:
You are contracted to work to 76 flying hrs pcm (depending how long the month is ie 31 day month is 78hrs).
Any hours you do over this are regarded as over time.
You may well be (and often will be) ROSTERED to fly into over time for which you will be paid 315dhs (85$) per hour for F/O and 460dhs (125$) for Capt (I think?).
However, once you have your roster, you are not OBLIGED to accept any more duty/flying, although you can be phoned on a day off and asked (as is the norm in most companies). If you are not hitting overtime or cant be bothered, just say NO, if you want to do it because you're a bit skint that month, say YES please, and make sure you also get your day off payment!
Nothing sinister about it all, but put simply you have no choice in accepting overtime in your allocated roster, but you do once the roster has been issued!
Hope this helps?

orangutan

28th Jan 2007, 07:11

Oh, I see. That does help set things straight. Thanks very much for your post, I appreciate it.

White Knight

28th Jan 2007, 08:30

Bad luck Dusty - looks like the 777's taking the heat now. Don't know about the other 'bus guys but 60 hrs this month (block) and 60 for Feb... Bit of a change from 2006:ok: :}

BYMONEK

28th Jan 2007, 13:45

sonoma

I hope you're not implying that by refusing to work on a day off when called by crewing will result in life becoming less tolerable. My days off are precious to me and I have received no backlash for not working. Refusing to do so could hardly be described as 'messing' with them. Refuse politely if you'd rather not, say yes if you want to. the choice is yours and yours alone. Never feel pressured to say yes := . Regardless of which seat you're sat in!

Regards

BYMONEK

Snake man

28th Jan 2007, 17:42

I don't want to burst your bubble, BYMONEK, but a friend of mine tried to politely decline a flight on a day off a while back and was told by Crew Control that they would be obliged to make a note of it and that it WOULD be brought up at his upgrade interview. Needless to say he agreed to do the flight.

SM

Ghostflyer

29th Jan 2007, 01:26

SM,
I do not believe that happened to your 'friend'! If he caved in on an issue like that he doesn't deserve to be upgraded!

145qrh

29th Jan 2007, 03:36

Well I have to say it sound like complete bollox...Also coming up for upgrade and have politely declined Crew Controls request, they have even said thanks and sorry for disturbing me before hanging up..:ouch:

Mistah Kurtz

29th Jan 2007, 04:27

Anyone working on a day off the the ridiculous amount of money offered is selling themselves cheaply and doing the rest of us a grave disservice.
If you work on a day off in return for getting rid of another less desirable flight that is another matter entirely and using the system to your advantage. It still leaves the other less desirable other flight unmanned

disconnected

29th Jan 2007, 16:14

Working on a day off is like littering. You get rid of your own rubbish but the whole place becomes unpleasant.

MR8

30th Jan 2007, 02:10

sonoma, snake man,

About 6 months ago I had the pleasure to meet one of the crew controllers. This person told me that they don't like calling people on their days off, but they have to. WHen I asked if any notes were kept on refusals to fly on a day off, it was a clear NO! This person actually told me that the crewing people rather hear a 'No, I'm not interested' instead of the usual 'I just opened a beer' or whatever other lame excuse people come up with...

Personally I don't fly on days off (I do help them out when they ask me to do other flights instead of the one I'm doing, as long as it is on rostered working days), and I never had a bad experience with crewing.

So snake man, either your friend is telling you a heap of b*llsh1t, or he refused a legal change of duty (they CAN re-roster you in certain cases, e.g. change of equipment, training requirements,... )

MR8

chinawladi

30th Jan 2007, 04:31

MR8, I agree. The guys in the rostering/crewing office are not our enemies, au contraire mon commandant. The enemy farts on higher levels.

theidler

30th Jan 2007, 06:04

Seem to recall a few years (4-5) ago one particular roster lady changing rosters to stop people going into productivity and so save the company money.
For example, one guy who had successfully bid for a Manchester layover to go visit his family had it changed to a local turnaround two days before the flight. And the reason he was going into productivity was because he had agreed to do an extra flight earlier in the month.
This was back in the days when the company had enough pilots to do the job.
Guess that the reason the company now doesn't have enough pilots to do the job is a result of events like the above. Reap what you sow etc.
Said roster lady, who seemed to have a monopoly on that particular trick (maybe she was on 10%) has recently been promoted to a Flight Ops management position. Presumably a reward for her innovative rostering techniques.

ekpilot

30th Jan 2007, 09:54

Work on a day off? No thanks, not even for Dhs4000 a day! They're far too valuable these days. Some of us cannot be bought.

dadster

30th Jan 2007, 09:59

Forgive me....is there a more specific FCN out re. new pay and if so ....where can I find it??

theidler

30th Jan 2007, 21:21

DV
I've been here 18 months and I love it! Nobody comes to EK from the UK for the Bunce. It's a question of quality of life. I came here to get away from crappy weather, tax, crappy promotion prospects, tax, a crappy government, tax, crappy services, tax, miserable b******s on late trains, tax, road rage,tax, the whordes of juvenile delinquents of a jilted generation, tax, same old Med and Caribbean routes, tax, same old routine, tax, whinging b******s, tax oh and dwindling pensions. Enuff said.
:ok:

Found the above piece in the depths of this thread, its dated October 2004.

The author resigned around a year ago................... to go back to the UK.

Enuff said.

Vorsicht

31st Jan 2007, 00:31

I see on the portal that secondary leave has been allocated and LRE is proud to make the statement that nearly everyone got 30 days. So by my calculation at around 1600 pilots still having 12 days leave owing, there is a shortfall of around 19200 days of leave. That would indicate we are around 60 pilots short. That isn't a huge number, but given that we are falling short on recruiting and the airline is getting bigger, those stats are not going to get any better any time soon.

Another reason not to work on a day off

Sheik Yerbouti

31st Jan 2007, 01:25

The Idler
Pontious is a good friend of mine, we joined Emirates together, and we left within 8 months of each other. both of us are back in the UK and loving every minute of it. Life in Dubai was a living hell,its only plus point was the sun, not a good enough reason to stay.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to put across. Everyone who joins this crap outfit has rose tinted glasses for about 6 months, then reality sinks in, and there is a dire need to escape.
All I can say,is that there is life after Emirates, and it is better than the **** they dish out.
All the best to those that can stick it out, and the poor souls that are about to join.
Cheers

bigusdicus

31st Jan 2007, 06:42

Jeez---a living hell? I've been here about 4 years and I kinda like it. Granted, we all have our " Dubai Days" but I think you should speak for yourself, not for me and the many other pilots whom you don't know. As far as the "rose tinted glasses" I needed mine the other day on the golf course. The sunshine here is awful.

I hope your new situation is good for you and your family. I know EK and Dubai is right for me and mine.

Bigus:ok:

P.S. Soles are something that are on the bottom of one's feet or shoes. (back to lurking):E

theidler

31st Jan 2007, 08:38

I'm not sure what point you are trying to put across.

My point?

Well, if someone had been impressed by Pontious' ramblings and their decision to join EK had been influenced by reading it, they might well be surprised to find that he had resigned a few months after his postings.

Perhaps more to the point, anybody reading recent postings by the likes of Crinklstein and bigusdicus would do well to consider the above 'point'.

As an aside, both of the aforementioned recent posters have more than a whiff of the USA about them. And that makes me wonder if Ed is getting his buddies to pump up EK on PPRuNe? ...........Or maybe they're both Captain America.

4HolerPoler

31st Jan 2007, 10:36

You can have a seat at my table any time Mr.Idler - your investigative work in unearthing Pontious's rose-tinted warble is very topical and should serve as a warning to all those hopeful "inbounds" who really do believe that the grass is greener on this side. :ok: For someone to go from the positive, buoyant outlook that Pontious had in his '04 post to banging out shortly afterwards, back to (I'll use his words) crappy weather, tax, crappy promotion prospects, tax, a crappy government, tax, crappy services, tax, miserable b******s on late trains, tax, road rage,tax, the whordes of juvenile delinquents of a jilted generation, tax, same old Med and Caribbean routes, tax, same old routine, tax, whinging b******s, tax oh and dwindling pensions is a statement in itself.

Your perception is astute - let me make a small announcement that you have alluded to - Crinklstein & bigusdicus are the same guy - remind you of someone else we haven't heard from recently? Nope it's not the tartanguy (unless he's using a new IP address) but he's displaying the same ethos.

4HP

Chimbu chuckles

31st Jan 2007, 14:26

A few snippets you guys might enjoy...'cause despite theidler's and my set too umpteen pages back I really am on your side.:ok:

A bunch...like more than several...narrow body (but some with previous widebody longhaul experience) airbus pilots I know, who showed some vague interest in EK several years ago are being 'harrassed', for want of a better word, via phone to renew interest and come for an interview...one guy I was chatting to recently had them ring several times at his home and he was out...his kids/wife answered and they kept ringing back...I think he said 3 times over 8 days or something...until they got him...I am not sure as to his level of enthusiasm but it didn't seem the least bit 'overt':ok:

Likewise with Etihad...some of the same guys being contacted by phone or email out of the blue...all experienced guys who are good operators as far as i am aware...although I don't fly airbus.

Boeing guys I speak to who have been exploring their options at Etihad report a significant upward adjustment in T&Cs..which if memory serves were a bit above EK in recent years...at least that was the opinion expressed by mate interned with you lot.:E

Was chatting on skype (we get that here in the world) to a mate in Japan...not saying where...his company recently requested 'a show of hands' from those interested in transfering to the new freighters...and were singularly dissappointed with the 100% lack of enthusiasm:} They went away and had a think and came back to the pilots and said, in effect,..."nah guys we are serious...show of hands...come on, you know you want to!!"

Effective response was ''...ahhh...Nope".

So bosses go away for another think and some weeks later, after pondering the huge freight contracts they had with sundry institutions, start dates etc, and I have no doubt, having advertised widely for DE everyfeckingthing, finally said, in effect. "Ahh would a us$30k one off payment and a us$1500/mth payrise (net figures) do it for you?"...and, yes, my reaction too was... YGBSM:ooh:

Cue sea of hands.:ok:

But wait there is more:E :D The affected pilots were offered contracts between 2 and 5 years, take their pick:rolleyes: ...and allegedly to a man signed 2 year contracts...these guys are reading the trends:D

So allegedly there is a Boeing captain contract out there with huge growth plans currently paying USD15K/mth on a 10 consequtive day off commuting basis..where you can also take two days/mth annual leave...and also sell back 2 days for $1500 making it a 14 days on/14 days off commuting roster at USD13.5k gross...tax your problem;)

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of anything above which has all been told to me in the last 3 days. I am NOT particularly tempted to race off an application to the japan thing because, to be perfectly frank, I couldn't take the 6 mths of licencing BS that preceeds it...but it's definately more grist for the mill and that is all good. Similarly not terribly interested in the sandpit at this point in my life...but people I know scattered around are...rumour mill suggests Etihad not EK.

I like where I am and I think T&Cs here will go up...not perhaps enough to match the above...but close enough below so it wouldn't be worth the agro, for me personally, to change jobs with all that entails...But I reserve the right to change my mind:ok:

Or they won't:ok:

I just sit back and smile...call me a fool but I get fewer ulcers that way...and really what else can we do...voting with your feet works for some, and I guess most of us have done it at least once, but it can be a terrible waste of leather too:ok:

I know I am going to be working bloody hard in the next few years while all this shakes out and that is ok...my only child is about to head off to college and I am not otherwise burdened...and I like flying...and I think it's gonna be worth it.