Italy's revised flight and duty times limitations

[bugs bunny]

I am trying to find out if the new regulation concerning the flight and duty time limits for short/medium range airline crews have yet been implemented.
This would mean that a two pilots crew plus INS employed on Short/medium range flights cannot be on duty for more than 13 hours of which only 8 hours flight time. Up to now a crew as desribed above could have been put on duty for up to 17 consecutive hours of which 13 hours of flight time.
It would also be nice to know what are the legal limits in YOUR Countries.
Bugs Bunny!!!!!!!!

[NewVSO]

We would all like to know. So, come on somebody in the know. When will Italy be forced to start obeying european regulations?

[Insp Gadget]

I surely hope that these new flight time limitations come into force soon as I am absolutely knackered from doing 12:45hrs to Cancun and Havana with a two man crew.

[GEENY]

If it comes will not be applied to long haul.Anyway at the meeting in Rome Soddu told them to sod off,he is continuing as before.What they all need is an European broom called JAR or whatever.

[Freddie]

Yes we go on as before, I did today.
I think the RAI does not realy care about it.
But it is stupid to restrict a 13h Duty to only 8h flight time. No european country does it like this.
In germany and austria there is only the restriction of 14h duty times, which I think makes sence.
By the way Lauda Air can go up to 18h duty time on special dutys and they have 5 legs.


Have fun.

[OC41]

The Italians dont even attend meetings in Brussels about Jar FCL so you can see how interested they are!

[RAT 5]

Been there, done that. A year of Italian charter long-haul and I was so knackered every day it was dangerous. Duty times of 16.40 outbound, 24 hours off, (forget calling it rest)then 14.30 back. Both 2 sectors, 2 pilots. The laser sun at 20W just as you were trying to sleep in those god-awful 767 seats. My old fiesta has more comfortable ones. Some guys had been at it for years. I didn't know what was happening till I stopped and it took a month to feel normal again. 3 periods of 24 hours with no sleep in an 8 day cycle. That was 5 crossings of the Atlantic. (one of my mates has his e-mail as 30W)
It was lethal stuff, all very macho. What was very disturbing was when Caledonian chartered us for a period. We flew Italy LGW, then down to Africa via Zanzibar.3 sectors of so long I can't remember, but with Brit pax expecting to be on a UK airline to CAA standards. What a joke. Worrying, if some operators plan a schedule for cost reasons, find UK crews can not fly it, then charter in an EU airline with rules from the sweat shops of the middle ages. They are supposed to operate to the rules of the host (chartering) airline, and that is supposed to be policed by the CAA, and we know what will happen then, don't we. Nowt!

The wine was good, the sun was warm, but more time was spent asleep recovering than enjoying the finer elements of italian life.
Fun to have done it just to find out not to want to do it again.

[JB007]

There are quite a few proposals going through at the moment with respect to amending and clarifing the texts of CAP 371, the Uk's "Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrew".
I could tell you..but then i'd have to kill you !!!!!

QUOTE :
"The proposed amendments will achieve clarification between the intent and the text of relevant sections of CAP371. It will also provide a more equitable situation for operators"

i.e As aircrew, you really won't notice any difference !!!!!!

007

------------------
Hear All...See All...Say Now't.

[Alpine Flyer]

Just to get matter straight:
Austria has no legal regulations at all. All airline limits are approved by the department of transportation (OZB). The handling of airline requests is of course absolutely unconnected to the paying of an MD-80, Fokker 50, Canadair Jet and Boeing 777 typerating for the (now) head of the responsible department by various Austrian Airlines.....

Regarding JAR-FCL most European regulatory bodies seem to employ the approach of "waiting for Brussels to act" while either not attending BRU sessions at all or even actively arguing against strict uniform rules when sitting there. The longer the debate lasts the more trips to nice places the guys get and the more national freedom they keep the more important they remain.

Countries use FDT regulation (our safety)as a way of promoting their national aviation industry, thus putting countries with strict rules (such as the UK or Scandinavia) at a disadvantage. This is entirely contrary to EU spirit and it is appaling that we pilots and flight crew have not managed to end this so far.

[NewVSO]

And they expect me to pay nearly 200 sterling for a nice new glossy JAR licence-what the hell for!!!
When I see that the licencing authorities are really working effectively, so that my children may get a chance to see me grow old enough to retire, then & only then will I pay them.
Still, making the travelling public aware of our plight will not help will it - "So, when you arrive Captain, you will fly straight back again?!!!"
Freddie, I agree with you on the 8 hour restriction though-would not work in our environment.

[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]

[GEENY]

So,VSO,
must be very glad to have checked all the details before getting the job in Italy and not blindly trusted what has been said?
No established,descent airline employs direct entry captains.If it appears OK it stinks.I wish I am wrong.
Power corrupts.

[NewVSO]

Geeny,
The original thread was a quiery about duty hours. I am not interested in personal issues & turning the thread that way would be a very selfish act on your part. I voiced the same concerns about duty hours during my charter days in the UK, but now the possibility of being worked into the ground is an even greater concern.
If I appear to have missed your point then I apologise to you.


[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]

[GEENY]

VSO,
To me your children are a personal thing(yours).Seems you got my point all right.You have signed the contract(like me before you)now bite the bullet,moaning only won't help,action might.

[america's cup]

Hi everybody

the implementation of these "safe" FTL in Italy, goes back to the end of 80's, when a long haul charter company (daughter of an UK Company), started its operations.

The Italian CAA didn't have the palest idea about "glass cockpit" equipment (they are not yet aware ) so it was really a boy's game for its DFO to convince the "Authority" to establish new rules for the modern technology cockpits, basically only to "optimize" his personal returns from this business, and not to create a safe and successful organization....as all the observers have realized last year....

The convincing tools were the "typical" italian arms to get unfair but convenient shortcuts for himself.....you all guess what?...

What does the CAA?.......still zzzzzzzz........zzzzzzzzzz..........zzzzzzzzz.......

[GEENY]

So,what is needed is the European Commission imposed JAR Subpart Q.They should have done it years ago(Prodi and Monti are Italians,DePalacio is Spanish),got the idea?
Until then there will be moaning prima donnas.

[NewVSO]

!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Insp Gadget]

I have spent this afternoon writting up my logbook. There was one sector of 13 hours block to block followed by a one hour turnaround and then a further one hour sector. These flight and duty times are not only to long but also dangerous.

Alitalia require a 3 man crew for flights over 9 hours and a 4 man crew for flights in excess of 12 hours, but then again that is thanks to their union.

[tarjet fixated]

www.anpac.it (http://www.anpac.it) is the web site to visit and think about for you guys (i'm pretty sure you all work for AEI).

[GEENY]

tarjet,
how lucky not to have joined Volare group of companies(yes,VLE works to the same limits,island of Sal and back in a day).

[Alano di Milano]

I was amazed recently flying on a Delta Airlines flight when the captain informed us during his PA that due to the length of the flight they had to have a three man crew.
The flight time was 6 hours 48 mins. !!!!

[crossfeedclosed]

JAR subpart Q - FTDT limits was thrown out years ago by EU unions and the ECA who among other things threatened to take the EU to every court in Europe if they attempted to allow EU law to be made by non-EU people. Remember that the JAA is an unelected body that has no standing in EU law. So where does that leave the rest of the JAR's?

[GEENY]

Xfeedclsd,
there are other issues at stake,like the competition ones.As an European AOC holder I would certainly prefer to set the shop up in,say Italy and than operate in the whole EU,even intra,say UK(in theory).In the reality the oposite is true:like a non Italian AOC holder operating intra Italy flights(NJI).
So the panEU FTL issue has been given to the EU commission to resolve(by a way of a proposal to be adopted by the EU parliament).Hence my comment above.
Proud to be European.

[tarjet fixated]

Is it true that under UK FTL everything goes back to zero every thusday morning at 2am?

[Insp Gadget]

At 2am on a Thursday morning? It all goes back to zero here in Italy after each flight. We should all be joining ANPAC in my opinion.

[Doctor Cruces]

No point at all in getting an EEC law on this issue. All this would mean is that the UK would implement it fully while the rest of Europe ignores it if it is not in their own interest. This, as in everything else concerning EEC law, would put the UK on the back of the drag curve yet again when dealing with the rest of Europe and the world at large.

A cynical Doc C.

[Richthofen]

Keeping all European Wings down for 2 hrs with fingerpointing on the "Intentionally Left Blank" Subpart Q Pages would work within two minutes, guys !

What are we waiting for ?

[Lenny]

On my knowledge, at one of the several meetings which took place in the past about the FTL when all the participants (Authorities, Airline operators and Pilots Associations) almost came to an agreement. But the rumor says that the Pilot Associations (BALPA...) refused to agree, in order to have the last word on the Airline disputes about the contracts.
What do you say about that?

[This message has been edited by Lenny (edited 21 May 2001).]

[tarjet fixated]

Seems that the new italian FTL for a 2 men crew is:
8 hrs flight time and 13 hrs duty (for short and medium haul).

[Look Down]

Tarjet,
is it confirmed or only a rumour?

[Alano di Milano]

That is true for the short haul, but still no change in the long haul limitations.

[Insp Gadget]

......and we are still doing 13 hours flight time and 17 hours duty with a two man crew.

[Look Down]

Even 13 hours with Cindy Crawford in a bed
would be too long, you would still need a break.How do you manage guys!?

[Nattracks]

Look down
We don´t....

[Insp Gadget]

It is very difficult keeping your eyes open at about 40W so all you can do is sleep otherwise you are to cream crackered for the important bit of putting the aircraft back on the ground at the other end.

sshhh dont tell the passengers the crew are asleep !!!!

[tarjet fixated]

Just spoke with a AZ pilot and he confirmed the 8-13 rule for short and medium haul ops.
Dunno if it has been implemented by other airlines as well but i would guess that when it becomes mandatory they will have to...i hope at least.