Italy's revised flight and duty times limitations
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Italy's revised flight and duty times limitations
I am trying to find out if the new regulation concerning the flight and duty time limits for short/medium range airline crews have yet been implemented.
This would mean that a two pilots crew plus INS employed on Short/medium range flights cannot be on duty for more than 13 hours of which only 8 hours flight time. Up to now a crew as desribed above could have been put on duty for up to 17 consecutive hours of which 13 hours of flight time.
It would also be nice to know what are the legal limits in YOUR Countries.
Bugs Bunny!!!!!!!!
This would mean that a two pilots crew plus INS employed on Short/medium range flights cannot be on duty for more than 13 hours of which only 8 hours flight time. Up to now a crew as desribed above could have been put on duty for up to 17 consecutive hours of which 13 hours of flight time.
It would also be nice to know what are the legal limits in YOUR Countries.
Bugs Bunny!!!!!!!!
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Yes we go on as before, I did today.
I think the RAI does not realy care about it.
But it is stupid to restrict a 13h Duty to only 8h flight time. No european country does it like this.
In germany and austria there is only the restriction of 14h duty times, which I think makes sence.
By the way Lauda Air can go up to 18h duty time on special dutys and they have 5 legs.
Have fun.
I think the RAI does not realy care about it.
But it is stupid to restrict a 13h Duty to only 8h flight time. No european country does it like this.
In germany and austria there is only the restriction of 14h duty times, which I think makes sence.
By the way Lauda Air can go up to 18h duty time on special dutys and they have 5 legs.
Have fun.
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Been there, done that. A year of Italian charter long-haul and I was so knackered every day it was dangerous. Duty times of 16.40 outbound, 24 hours off, (forget calling it rest)then 14.30 back. Both 2 sectors, 2 pilots. The laser sun at 20W just as you were trying to sleep in those god-awful 767 seats. My old fiesta has more comfortable ones. Some guys had been at it for years. I didn't know what was happening till I stopped and it took a month to feel normal again. 3 periods of 24 hours with no sleep in an 8 day cycle. That was 5 crossings of the Atlantic. (one of my mates has his e-mail as 30W)
It was lethal stuff, all very macho. What was very disturbing was when Caledonian chartered us for a period. We flew Italy LGW, then down to Africa via Zanzibar.3 sectors of so long I can't remember, but with Brit pax expecting to be on a UK airline to CAA standards. What a joke. Worrying, if some operators plan a schedule for cost reasons, find UK crews can not fly it, then charter in an EU airline with rules from the sweat shops of the middle ages. They are supposed to operate to the rules of the host (chartering) airline, and that is supposed to be policed by the CAA, and we know what will happen then, don't we. Nowt!
The wine was good, the sun was warm, but more time was spent asleep recovering than enjoying the finer elements of italian life.
Fun to have done it just to find out not to want to do it again.
It was lethal stuff, all very macho. What was very disturbing was when Caledonian chartered us for a period. We flew Italy LGW, then down to Africa via Zanzibar.3 sectors of so long I can't remember, but with Brit pax expecting to be on a UK airline to CAA standards. What a joke. Worrying, if some operators plan a schedule for cost reasons, find UK crews can not fly it, then charter in an EU airline with rules from the sweat shops of the middle ages. They are supposed to operate to the rules of the host (chartering) airline, and that is supposed to be policed by the CAA, and we know what will happen then, don't we. Nowt!
The wine was good, the sun was warm, but more time was spent asleep recovering than enjoying the finer elements of italian life.
Fun to have done it just to find out not to want to do it again.
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There are quite a few proposals going through at the moment with respect to amending and clarifing the texts of CAP 371, the Uk's "Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrew".
I could tell you..but then i'd have to kill you !!!!!
QUOTE :
"The proposed amendments will achieve clarification between the intent and the text of relevant sections of CAP371. It will also provide a more equitable situation for operators"
i.e As aircrew, you really won't notice any difference !!!!!!
007
------------------
Hear All...See All...Say Now't.
I could tell you..but then i'd have to kill you !!!!!
QUOTE :
"The proposed amendments will achieve clarification between the intent and the text of relevant sections of CAP371. It will also provide a more equitable situation for operators"
i.e As aircrew, you really won't notice any difference !!!!!!
007
------------------
Hear All...See All...Say Now't.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Just to get matter straight:
Austria has no legal regulations at all. All airline limits are approved by the department of transportation (OZB). The handling of airline requests is of course absolutely unconnected to the paying of an MD-80, Fokker 50, Canadair Jet and Boeing 777 typerating for the (now) head of the responsible department by various Austrian Airlines.....
Regarding JAR-FCL most European regulatory bodies seem to employ the approach of "waiting for Brussels to act" while either not attending BRU sessions at all or even actively arguing against strict uniform rules when sitting there. The longer the debate lasts the more trips to nice places the guys get and the more national freedom they keep the more important they remain.
Countries use FDT regulation (our safety)as a way of promoting their national aviation industry, thus putting countries with strict rules (such as the UK or Scandinavia) at a disadvantage. This is entirely contrary to EU spirit and it is appaling that we pilots and flight crew have not managed to end this so far.
Austria has no legal regulations at all. All airline limits are approved by the department of transportation (OZB). The handling of airline requests is of course absolutely unconnected to the paying of an MD-80, Fokker 50, Canadair Jet and Boeing 777 typerating for the (now) head of the responsible department by various Austrian Airlines.....
Regarding JAR-FCL most European regulatory bodies seem to employ the approach of "waiting for Brussels to act" while either not attending BRU sessions at all or even actively arguing against strict uniform rules when sitting there. The longer the debate lasts the more trips to nice places the guys get and the more national freedom they keep the more important they remain.
Countries use FDT regulation (our safety)as a way of promoting their national aviation industry, thus putting countries with strict rules (such as the UK or Scandinavia) at a disadvantage. This is entirely contrary to EU spirit and it is appaling that we pilots and flight crew have not managed to end this so far.
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And they expect me to pay nearly 200 sterling for a nice new glossy JAR licence-what the hell for!!!
When I see that the licencing authorities are really working effectively, so that my children may get a chance to see me grow old enough to retire, then & only then will I pay them.
Still, making the travelling public aware of our plight will not help will it - "So, when you arrive Captain, you will fly straight back again?!!!"
Freddie, I agree with you on the 8 hour restriction though-would not work in our environment.
[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]
When I see that the licencing authorities are really working effectively, so that my children may get a chance to see me grow old enough to retire, then & only then will I pay them.
Still, making the travelling public aware of our plight will not help will it - "So, when you arrive Captain, you will fly straight back again?!!!"
Freddie, I agree with you on the 8 hour restriction though-would not work in our environment.
[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]
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So,VSO,
must be very glad to have checked all the details before getting the job in Italy and not blindly trusted what has been said?
No established,descent airline employs direct entry captains.If it appears OK it stinks.I wish I am wrong.
Power corrupts.
must be very glad to have checked all the details before getting the job in Italy and not blindly trusted what has been said?
No established,descent airline employs direct entry captains.If it appears OK it stinks.I wish I am wrong.
Power corrupts.
Guest
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Geeny,
The original thread was a quiery about duty hours. I am not interested in personal issues & turning the thread that way would be a very selfish act on your part. I voiced the same concerns about duty hours during my charter days in the UK, but now the possibility of being worked into the ground is an even greater concern.
If I appear to have missed your point then I apologise to you.
[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]
The original thread was a quiery about duty hours. I am not interested in personal issues & turning the thread that way would be a very selfish act on your part. I voiced the same concerns about duty hours during my charter days in the UK, but now the possibility of being worked into the ground is an even greater concern.
If I appear to have missed your point then I apologise to you.
[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by NewVSO (edited 09 May 2001).]
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Hi everybody
the implementation of these "safe" FTL in Italy, goes back to the end of 80's, when a long haul charter company (daughter of an UK Company), started its operations.
The Italian CAA didn't have the palest idea about "glass cockpit" equipment (they are not yet aware ) so it was really a boy's game for its DFO to convince the "Authority" to establish new rules for the modern technology cockpits, basically only to "optimize" his personal returns from this business, and not to create a safe and successful organization....as all the observers have realized last year....
The convincing tools were the "typical" italian arms to get unfair but convenient shortcuts for himself.....you all guess what?...
What does the CAA?.......still zzzzzzzz........zzzzzzzzzz..........zzzzzzzzz.......
the implementation of these "safe" FTL in Italy, goes back to the end of 80's, when a long haul charter company (daughter of an UK Company), started its operations.
The Italian CAA didn't have the palest idea about "glass cockpit" equipment (they are not yet aware ) so it was really a boy's game for its DFO to convince the "Authority" to establish new rules for the modern technology cockpits, basically only to "optimize" his personal returns from this business, and not to create a safe and successful organization....as all the observers have realized last year....
The convincing tools were the "typical" italian arms to get unfair but convenient shortcuts for himself.....you all guess what?...
What does the CAA?.......still zzzzzzzz........zzzzzzzzzz..........zzzzzzzzz.......
Guest
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I have spent this afternoon writting up my logbook. There was one sector of 13 hours block to block followed by a one hour turnaround and then a further one hour sector. These flight and duty times are not only to long but also dangerous.
Alitalia require a 3 man crew for flights over 9 hours and a 4 man crew for flights in excess of 12 hours, but then again that is thanks to their union.
Alitalia require a 3 man crew for flights over 9 hours and a 4 man crew for flights in excess of 12 hours, but then again that is thanks to their union.
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www.anpac.it is the web site to visit and think about for you guys (i'm pretty sure you all work for AEI).