View Full Version : If I was the boss of KLM...

Long Haul
18th Jun 2001, 23:40
I would be unhappy that I had KLM cityhopper and KLMuk doing essentially the same thing, feeding the hub, but using two separate company structures, i.e. two scheduling departments, two catering departments, etc. I think that I would let KLC take over all the UK routes, and put the entire KLMuk organization onto that BUZZ thing.

19th Jun 2001, 02:25
And that would improve .... what?

But then ... you are not.


Long Haul
19th Jun 2001, 11:37
No, I'm not the boss, luckily. The overall profitability of the regional operation would improve because you would have one office in Amsterdam running twice as large a regional airline plus an independent Buzz operation, versus what you have now which is one regional airline in Amsterdam, one at Stansted, and an independant Buzz.

20th Jun 2001, 02:51
Don't quite follow your reasoning Long Haul. First of all, buzz is not independent but uses the same core services as klmUK, so if all klmUK aircraft and crews fly for buzz no savings. But, suddenly cityhopper need another 20-25 aircraft and crews to keep the feed going to klm long haul - massive cost increase. Add that klmUK are far more cost effective than cityhopper and I'd know which one I'd want to be rid of, if only I could get it past my masters at the VNV.

20th Jun 2001, 03:44
does it matter one clog what we think, B.A. will be hoping to take on the vnv, so they can get rid of the expensive labour at KLM, and end up with what they want. schiphol, not KLM.

Long Haul
20th Jun 2001, 23:55
I personally donīt believe that KLMuk is far more cost effective than KLC nor that KLM labor is far more expensive than BA labour, although I donīt know for sure. Remember that the pound has increased its value against the guilder by 35% in the last 5 years, and that KLMUK pays about nlg 3000 in housing allowance to each of its pilots based in AMS. KLC can get the aircraft it needs from KLMuk; it already flys the F100 and the F50. BUZZ could then get some better airplanes like 737s. Crews would not be a problem since there is such long waiting list at KLM, or some KLMuk crews may wish to stay on. The real advantage would be that crews could be more efficiently scheduled, that is instead of just going uk and back, they could also go to European destinations. That Buzz and KLMuk share some of the underlying support services may be true, but they are totally different airlines with totally different markets. Buzz would be left with one crew base (they now have 5, I believe), one aircraft type, one catering concept, etc. KLC would simply expand the departments it already has, operating many more aircraft with a lesser incremental cost, thus acheiving a economies of scales improvement.

21st Jun 2001, 00:22
and where longhaul my dear chap do you think KLC would get the crews to fly 20 to 25 more aircraft? from what i hear KLC are having problems now with crews, shnot posssible!!!

21st Jun 2001, 00:31
KLM Cityhopper can have me if they want ;)

21st Jun 2001, 01:27
I understand what your getting at now, long haul, all klmUK aircraft transfered to cityhopper equals more jobs for the dutch. Why didn't you just come out and say it? buzz gets new aircraft, maybe 737's? Obviously these aircraft and the crew training required won't cost buzz's parent company a bean as you know klm wouldn't fund it in the first place.
There are very few UK pilots on the AMS detachment (maybe 20 max.) so not much saving there and although klmUk has a regional basing policy, as required in a country with more than one airport, all management functions are carried out from Stansted, as you suggested. Furthermore your policy would require at least 11, but more like 22 KLC crews nightstopping in UK to get the punters to AMS for the long haul wave, not cheap, especially on klm allowances.
There is, however, one of your points I agree with whole heartedly and that is that it would be more efficient for the F100's to fly into Europe from AMS. What is required is a modicum of cooperation, it makes sense for klmUK to fly the earlies from UK to AMS and also the final flights AMS to UK. Vice versa it is inefficient for klmUK to fly the earlies out of AMS to UK and the final flights to AMS. The latter should be done by KLC, then we all get to sleep in our own beds. To free up KLC/KLM crews to do this means klmUK crews will have to fill in on AMS - Europe routes. Radical, I know, but if the VNV want to fiddle whilst klm loses all the long haul punters from Eurowings to Lufthansa then so be it.
When klm no longer exist, having become Dutch BA, and the suits are moving into Hoofdorp, maybe the VNV will be forced to widen their horizons, after all we will all get more time to think when we're unemployed.

22nd Jun 2001, 12:18
WELL SAID, i couldnt agree more, the VNV needs to open its eyes to the real world.

22nd Jun 2001, 19:40
I think it is prob' to late for the vnv, as B.A. already know what they want from AMS,
1, to expand into schiphol
2, to stop KLM taking so many U.K. punters
3, to become the no1 Euro airline

I think there will be some trouble ahead at schiphol, as B.A. will expect to hump KLM and the vnv

Long Haul
10th Mar 2002, 23:53
Although I still haven't mananaged to usurp the powers-that-be, it seems that KLM's management have been thinking along the same lines as I did last summer. This past week they have been meeting with the VNV to discuss how the hub operation of KLM-uk could be merged into KLM Cityhopper. Major issues to be resolved include where the ex-KLMuk pilots would appear on the joint KLM-KLC senoritylist, and under what conditions, if any, they would be allowed to fly the big planes.

11th Mar 2002, 10:50
Excuse my extreme ignorance, but what is VNV? . .. .Also, reading the posts above and bearing in mind AMS's fifth runway, is it likely that BA is preparing itself for the likelihood that LHR will not get a third runway (and presumably BA couldn't give a stuff about a new runway anywhere else) and is intending to combine long haul operations with KLM there? Presumably this will be used as a big stick in the lead up to the decision.

11th Mar 2002, 11:43
Akerosid, VNV stands for Vereniging van Nederlandse Vekeersvliegers, Dutch ALPA.. .. .The most powerful union in KLM and the one that all other's look upto for it's negotiating skills, it's professionalism and it's resolve not to let their memebers be f***ed over by the beancounters.

11th Mar 2002, 12:49
L.H.. .Would you bother with Volare group then?

12th Mar 2002, 01:13
Long Haul, since you seem to know so much about KLMuk and buzz, could you please tell us the five bases that buzz has, as per your earlier post. Being just an ignorant pilot, as opposed to the prospective head of KLM, I thought they only had one.

12th Mar 2002, 02:42
KLMuk doesn't have many pilots left on the AMS basing, and they shut the cabin crew base there a few months ago.. .. .A KLMuk pilot (even discounting the AMS allowance) would earn a lot less with City Hopper based on their euro paid salary.. .. .It would make sense for KLMuk to stay seperate and do the UK to NL routes where currently City Hopper crews nighstop.. .. .Its crazy that at the moment their are dutch nighstopping in the UK and english nighstopping in NL ??? . .. .As for fleets, yes the combination of F50's/F70's and F100's is ideal for such a merger ..... BUT as already said it posses huge VNV opposition.. .. .Also what about City Hoppers crews right of transfer to KLM mainline after 7 years .... would KLMuk crews have that same right and have their years of service credited ???. .. .A whole bag of worms ... but 'je veit het noit!'. .. .Tot zeins

12th Mar 2002, 12:12
To Mfds,. . Just a small correection it's 6 years in Cityhopper then "THE BIG BLUE" is open to bidding.. .. .To flaps forty,. . The VNV is a "KLM" union and on more than just a few occasions has used it's numbers to $#%* the pilots at Cityhopper. This caused about 30 pilots to resign from the VNV 5 years ago.

Long Haul
12th Mar 2002, 12:27
Herod,. .At the time of my first posting, I believe that KLM-uk had pilot bases in STN, MAN, LBA, GLA, & AMS, and cabin crew bases in Humberside, Teeside, Norwich, and Newcastle as well. Crew based at the outstations instead of the hub can actually be cheaper, as there are fewer hotel rooms to pay for. There is, however, a problem with reserve coverage, as every base should have someone on reserve every day in case someone calls in sick. . .mfds,. .I am myself not convinced that there would be any opposition to this at all from the VNV, unless a lot of the Dutch pilots lost a lot of senority. Don't forget that the VNV will, sometime in the future, in all likelihood again sit across the table from BALPA; and at that time at in a more disadvantageous position.

12th Mar 2002, 13:48
Dear Flaps-Forty,. .. .As a true European I feel that the VNV is too much KLM pilots only oriented... They are talking too much about things they shouldn't be talking about. (a bit like the BCA at SN) The VNV should protect the jobs of it members in numbers (i.e. KL can outsource X as long as they keep Y pilots at KL itself) and quality (i.e. salary, time off etc). They should not sit on the chair of management as we can see at SN, Alitalia and Olympic.... .. .The arguments they use to keep fellow KLuk and HV pilots out is pathetic as they are the guys filling the big shinny 747's they operate.. .. .If the VNV had not been there KLC and KLuk had already been merged and there would have been more pilot jobs. That should be the aim of the VNV! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 09:49: Message edited by: Dutchie ]</small>

12th Mar 2002, 15:48
ICURA & Dutchie, not being a pilot, I cannot say what the VNV does and doesn't do.. .. .On the previous page there was a question as to what the word VNV means. . .I went to their website, copied the name from there in Dutch and English, so the ppruner who wanted to know got his answer.. .. .My second comment says exactly how I personally feel about the VNV. I have flown for 20 years now, and seen the difference between how the VNV represents it's members and how my own union does it. The Cabin Crew Union might be the biggest one looking at the numbers, but they have in no way the same clout the VNV has. While the CC union is certainly well meaning and has become more professional off late, it does not have the determination nor the professionalism of the VNV.. .. .Looking at it from the outside, I can only wish my own union were more like the VNV.. .. .Any moral judgement on the VNV's points of view, as well as informed comment on it's actions, I am happy to leave to it's members.

12th Mar 2002, 18:35
Long Haul, yes KLMuk does have the bases you mentioned, but buzz has not.

12th Mar 2002, 20:12
But Buzz and KLM uk are one and the same thing (for a little while longer at least)!

Long Haul
13th Mar 2002, 00:24
Herod,. .I see now that I typed Buzz when I meant KLMuk. You are correct.

13th Mar 2002, 14:09
Dutchie, not sure how up to date you are on what the VNV stands for. Your x, y comparison is something that the VNV has recognized and implemented for at least four years now. The agreed production split is arranged along Key, Anchor, Tactical, Aero Political, and Leisure partners. A conflict could be heading our way this summer because KLM is not holding up their end of the deal. . .If you are referring to the way things are done in the States (ALPA, having different chapters at each airline) lets keep a bit of perspective on the Dutch situation, airline bases and sheer airline size are just two reasons why this is so in the USA. Plus the whole scene is owned by KLM (no offense to Shreiner or DutchBird). We just donít have the scale.. . . .As far as the VNV sitting side by side with our KLM management, I must say I am not comfortable with the situation especially over the last year. The lines are getting more blurred on where KLM begins and the VNV starts. But again the problem is cultural as much as organizational. The ďpolder modelĒ of negotiation has had its longest time. But that does not mean that it is a unionís job to maximize the return for the members and in the process hurt the company.. .. .Your comment about the VNV being a KLM union, that is largely true, with more then 2/3 of its members flying for KLM mainline. Also KLM has the best salary and benefit package and as is ALPA policy the idea is to pull the package up not down-market for all. Your assessment that the VNV screwed KLC pilots; I know for a fact that there are at least 250 junior KLM pilots who feel that the VNV screwed them over on the same seniority question. Just look at any other major airline and the way they integrate their regional pilots into their lists (not) and I can fairly conclude that KLC pilots received as much as they could have gotten (more then they had). And the Dutch courts have agreed with this assessment. I for one wish we would have kept the peace and just stayed with the old integration scheme. KLM assessment after four years then put on the bottom of the list and transfer after another four years. So KLM mainline after 8 KLC years. Any further integration of KLM daughter airlineís pilots has been done great harm by the KLC episode. . .. .I want to make sure that I donít treat on any long toes, the quality of pilots is undoubtedly the same across the group, but KLM mainline operation has the most to offer and the benefit for mainline pilots with further integration is of questionable value. I hope my union VNV will explain it to me. The bidding is only up into mainline; KLM junior experienced pilots can not bid into KLC captaincy positions. I can see the benefit for KLM repositioning its assets along mainline, regional, low-cost and leisure lines. But the pilot seniority issue is so incredibly sensitive. I would guess that a KLMuk pilot would not accept an arbitrary date at which his integration date into the KLM seniority list starts (say the forming of a new KLC/KLMuk airline), even if it opens up the mainline aircraft open to him/her. This was the case with KLC pilots as well, and there was an integration model already in place. I would truly love to hear from my valued colleagues at KLMuk and Transavia on what they would feel would be an acceptable integration model to them, that way we are clear on what we are talking about.. .. .Sorry about the length.

13th Mar 2002, 16:14
All this talk about regional airlines joining together, reminds me of something that has already happened in the UK. From what I hear that is turning into a disaster. Hopefully KLM will look at that and learn from it?

14th Mar 2002, 03:21
Some people actually CHOOSE not to fly for KLM... Some people don't like to fly long-haul, but prefer to stay at home as much as possible... . .. .Think about it, not everybody will be happy about being sucked into the big nothingness called KLM. I rather like knowing most of my collegues... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

14th Mar 2002, 11:28
Heard that one before. Nobody forces anybody to fly long-haul at KLM. As a Co-pilot your pay is independent of what fleet you fly. And as a Boeing 737 Captain you are well ahead of other operators of the type in Holland. If indeed you choose to bypass KLM mainline you are a small minority indeed. The integration envisioned by our management would probably entail the operational merger of KLMuk and KLC. This merger would increase the size of the combined airline well past KLMís mainline Boeing 737 fleet. Would you then move on?. .. .You asked me to think about the big blue void. I did and your arguments are at best relevant for a very small minority. For people who do not move on to KLM mainline, things like becoming a co-pilot again, and age also play a role. If people have the choice at the time of flying either for KLM, Martinair, Transavia, or KLC I think I can be pretty confident which choice these people will make. I can tell you I have enjoyed my fifteen years, and counting, with KLM tremendously.

15th Mar 2002, 02:46
I am so saddened about what happened to the once fine airline called AirUK. Once the third largest airline in the UK with a very good reputation and loyal customer base.. .. .When KLM aquired AirUK it destroyed its domestic network and international routes and re-deployed the aircraft to amsterdam feeder routes.. .. .It was ironic that the year KLM shut all our domestic routes we won the domestic airline of the year award.. .. .Years of mis management by KLM have resulted in a small airline called KLMuk feeding amsterdam with old and worn out aircraft, poor customer service and on many occasions complete contempt for the loyal workforce and crews. While KLC has been expanding in the past few months we have again suffered. Captains have been demoted, first officers have been made redundant.. .. .BUZZ is a fantastic product being starved, it desperatly needs to expand, but the funds and resources from KLM are just not forthcoming.. .. .So what for the future? KLC needs to expand, it is short of experienced crews, by merging KLMuk and KLC lots of problems are solved, costs are reduced by operating one AOC it all makes sense, however KLM and KLC crews must learn NOT to look on us as a threat but a great asset, i am sure the VNV will oppose any merger due to the perceived threat of KLMuk pilots joining the fold, but if they were to work with us and we were to join as one pilot force job security and conditions could be improved all round.. .. .the same applies to any merger of BUZZ and Transavia, with this combination they could really take on the likes of easyjet and Go to become the real success that they so much deserve.. .. .It is up to us, the pilot workforces of KLM, KLC KLMuk, BUZZ and Transavia to work together for a common goal, lets not destroy a fantastic opportunity to create strong succesful airlines by bitter in fighting and xenophobia.. .. .The future is bright!!! Lets make it work!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

Ignition Override
15th Mar 2002, 10:52
FlapsForty Dragon; Good description-lost a certain e-mail address. Smaklijke eten/drinken. Far vel.

15th Mar 2002, 13:10
Driver1, great post. I agree the integration of KLC/KLMuk all makes sense from a business point of view (as does Basiq/Buzz, and Transavia/Martinair). And I donít think the VNV is against any merger in and of itself. But like you my seniority number is all I have, and that is where a merger at the pilot level usually hits a brick wall. I would love to hear what the solution is to a merger of the seniority list in this case. As I mentioned the whole integration process was done a great disservice by the bungled handling of the integration of the KLM/KLC lists by the VNV. It provided no benefit to mainline pilots, and many KLC pilots felt they got screwed as well, because their full seniority was not recognized. Maybe that is the true measure of a good deal, if it leaves both parties unsatisfied. One of the oldest pilot unions CALPA (Canada) fell apart over this very issue, integrating regional lists with mainline lists. So emotions aside how do we get to a solution? I will start by saying that I will fight tooth and nail for my number, and this will be the case for all concerned of that I am sure. Best of luck at KLMuk I hope we find some wisdom and make the whole KLM group maximize its potential. Kind regards.

15th Mar 2002, 17:36
Thanx for the reply Otterman;. .. .While i do see your point that you will fight tooth and nail for your seniority it is this very point that may cause the whole deal to collapse. We have pilots in KLMuk with 31 years service, shouldnt they and thier counterparts at KLC have some recognition for years of service? We need to work to a COMMON goal, security and a bright future for all, in any merger situation there are winners and loosers, ask British Airways about the merger of B Cal some years ago, the bitterness is still on going.. .. .my suggestion is this, perhaps the KLC and KLMuk list could be combined on a year for year basis, then the KLMuk pilots added to the bottom of the KLM mainline list in KLMuk seniority order. This protects existing KLM pilots from any threat but still allows the younger pilots in KLMuk the future of a fantastic career within KLM yet still protects the more senior pilots in KLMuk and KLC who are happy to remain flying short haul feeder routes.. .. .Also may i suggest that we get to know each other alot better, even if this is just by chatting in the Crew centre, once people get to know each other many perceived barriers are removed.. .. .Perhaps KLMuk could challenge KLM to a go kart competition??!! the winners get the seniority!! (joke!!). .. .what i am trying to say is we need to communicate so as the managers do not divide us.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 13:39: Message edited by: driver1 ]</small>

15th Mar 2002, 20:46
Driver1, you mentioned that there are pilots with 31 years service with AirUK/KLMuk. That is in impressive amount of time. The other question you asked; if that should not be recognized. This is where the problem starts. For KLM mainline pilots the integration does not represent added value from a career perspective. We have the big iron that represents the bigger remuneration. And as of the present time junior KLM pilots with a lot of experience canít bid down into the left seat of KLC aircraft. The problem with any KLMuk/KLC integration is that the KLM mainline list has all the KLC pilots merged into it already. There is one list. At the moment that a KLC pilot joined he/she knew that there was an integration scheme that would allow transfer to mainline after passing their assessment after four years at KLC, and an additional four years service. It was part of their contract. Adding KLMuk pilots onto this list will be hard, because there is no pre-existing model. In order to recognize the years of service at KLMuk I would be inclined to firewall the respective fleets for a number of years (thinking along the lines of 5 years), everybody keeps what they have, nobody takes anybodyís seat. KLMuk pilots will be put at the bottom of the KLM mainline list. Any fleet increase in the regional segment would be split at a pro-rated amount between crewing of KLC and KLMuk, so career perspective is maintained for that 5 years. In the meantime the operational side would be integrated totally in the most efficient manner. So KLC and KLMuk crews interchange so even a Captain from one side could fly with an FO from the other side. After those five years, everyone should be settled with the new situation and cross bidding side-ways and up into mainline could start. Where the principal that nobody can be bumped out of their seat is upheld. This honors people in the sense that nobody looses anything, and KLM mainline positions will open up for KLMuk pilots after five years. What brought about a lot of trouble with the KLM/KLC integration was that KLM junior mainline pilots actually lost a lot of positions on the list. This was a first in KLM history, and left some deep scares. I can state that this is not likely to happen again. Once KLMuk pilots are integrated into the list, all new hires at any company would join at the new bottom. For KLM mainline pilots nothing much changes. For KLMuk pilots the big fleet will open up and they donít lose anything that they now have.

15th Mar 2002, 20:53
Driver1 of course the go-kart race might be the way to go. Send me an email, maybe we can bump into each other at Schiphol. Regards, Otterman.

15th Mar 2002, 22:59
Otterman I can put up with your idea of a type freeze for five years, but there is no way I am going to the bottom of the list. The reasons being that if any redundancies come up it is the guys at the bottom that bear the brunt. Also, many of the pilots at klmUK have been contributing to the KLM group for much longer than the junior pilots at KLC or Mainline. Anybody who has worked for the group for less time should be junior. Nuff said!

15th Mar 2002, 23:33
KLMuk is not the only camel who is trying to get its nose under the tent. I am sure all of the other junior partners will want on that list. But I can only say that I donít care how many years you have with KLMuk or Transavia or wherever, years of service on the list is a nonstarter for not only me but I am sure the vast majority of the KLM mainline pilots. I am sure that even our KLC colleagues who wanted the same thing for themselves will be lying down in front of that plan. Maybe a good matter of perspective for them. Once again we donít gain with any merger, while the junior partners have the potential of moving into larger equipment. If there is a way to honor the years of service within the KLM group as it relates to layoffs I can see people giving that some serious thought. Layoffs havenít happened within the KLM group since the early sixties, but I understand your point of view. Even layoff clauses as it relates to where the excess capacity is would be acceptable to me, mainline, regional, leisure, lowcost. Of course properly covered in any collective bargaining agreement. Imhotep, I totally understand your view on this. Without a doubt I would feel the same on your side of the fence. But while this exchange has remained friendly I can also see that the positions are nearly irreconcilable, maybe leaving things as is would be better. That way I know what I can expect and so can you and all my other valued colleagues across the group. My two cents have been put in. Kind regards.

Long Haul
16th Mar 2002, 01:06
How about we do this: . .Merge KLMuk pilots onto the KLM/KLC master senority list on a one-for-one basis with KLC pilots; that is the most senior KLMuk pilot goes under the most senior KLC pilot and so on on a alternating basis. At the same time, reserve a number of places at the bottom of the list equal to the number of pilots joining from KLMuk. At the moment when a KLMuk pilot chooses to bid a position on the 737 or larger, he or she assumes their reserved position. This should enable both the KLMuk and KLC copilots to upgrade onto the Fokkers at the same rate, which is appropriate since the addition of KLMuk aircraft will approxiamately double the size of KLC. In theory KLC pilots lose nothing - there would be twice as many captain positions but also twice as many people ahead of them on the list. Junior KLM pilots also would have twice as many KLC slots to bid (assuming that they will be able to bid them soon) and twice as many KLCers above them. They would, however, keep their priority for the big fleet. KLMuk pilots would gain the opportunity to someday join the main line, however the copilots would have some junior KLMers move onto the KLC captain slots before them, a win-lose scenario. Of course the whole salary structure would become very complicated since KLM co-pilots are paid primarily on senority, but that could probably be solved.

16th Mar 2002, 01:14
otterman;. .. .the solution is quite simple. KLC are merged into the KLMuk seniority list on a year on year basis, KLC pilots remain on the mainline list as well for the purpose of transfer should they wish, KLMuk pilots are also put on the mainline list but at the bottom in seniority order.. .. .The result is two lists, one for the new combined regional airline and one for mainline, that way everyone is protected by their years of service but it does give an incentive to our junior pilots to join mainline if they wish.. .. .I do not think any noses would be put out of place by this and believe it is very fair, but please KLMuk pilots have been loyal and filling your longhaul aircraft with 27% of your passenger loads for years now, we have been decimated by KLM it is about time we had something to look foward to and some reward for our loyalty to the group.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 21:22: Message edited by: driver1 ]</small>

Long Haul
16th Mar 2002, 01:23
driver1:. .A possible sticking point with your idea is that there are a lot of junior KLM cruise relief pilots who have been with the company for five years (or more) and still never had a seat up front for take-off and landing. The VNV has promised to make KLC co-pilot positions available to them by combining the regulations concerning career paths. Where would they come onto the regional list? Most KLM pilots wish that they still had a separate senority list for the commuter division, but they don't.

16th Mar 2002, 01:29
Longhaul;. .. .you got there before me!! i think our ideas are similar and certainly this can be sorted with reasonable negotiation. What we must be careful of is that we work TOGETHER and tell management our agreement, not have it dictated to us by them. perhaps it is time for me to join the VNV, do you know if this is open to KLMuk pilots?. .. .As for the CoCo's perhaps they could be included in the regional list on a year for year basis as well, but ONLY for the CoCo's otherwise it would get out of hand, . .. .As stated in a previous post there will always be winners and loosers in and merger situation, what we need to find is the best compromise.. .. .Otterman;. .. .Just to remind you, we are not Camels trying to get our nose under your tent, we didnt choose to be taken over by KLM it was forced upon us, if i had a choice i would like things as they were in the old AirUK, but then we cant turn back the clock can we.. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 21:40: Message edited by: driver1 ]</small>

16th Mar 2002, 13:30
A very significant factor is missing from these discussions, and that is the role of buzz in all of this.. .. .Ottermans assertion that there are no benefits for KLM mainline pilots in a merger of seniority lists, disregards the potential of buzz. Maybe from the ivory towers of a KLM wide body, buzz appears insignificant, but the low cost sector is the future of airline travel within Europe. The massive orders placed by Ryanair, Easyjet, and Go mean that our competitors will all be operating fleets of over one hundred aircraft within five years. Buzz is performing very well, and we have developed arguably the best product within the low cost sector. Financially we are ahead of all budget predictions The only thing holding us back from matching the growth of our competitors is lack of investment.. .. .Buzz has the potential to grow to be the biggest airline under the KLM umberella. Almost certainly it will undergo massive expansion over the next few years, probably both in the UK and in the Netherlands via Transavia. The career opportunities afforded to junior KLM pilots having access to that growth will be far greater than their losses suffered by a merger with the KLM uk and Transavia seniority lists. However those opportunities can only be open if free movement is allowed from both sides, and everyones seniority is respected in full.

16th Mar 2002, 14:10
flapsforty,. .VNV is not very strong at all. It simply does what KLM tells them to do. It doesn't have a vision on the future, although they would like their members to believe they have (looking at this week's letter to members). Furthermore it is part of a multilateral negotiation with KLM where all other KLM's unions are present. VNV never, ever, got out of that negotiation with anything more than what the other unions accomplished. Exapmple is a 'donation' to KLM of 6 days leave of the normally entitled holiday days per pilot. That is about 12.000 (man) production days in 2002. Supposedly those days will be returned in 2003, but for the moment a huge excess of pilots will exist which will put pressure on contract negotiations in 2002.. .If BA really wants to take over KLM there's nothing VNV will do about it. Or can for that matter. The only thing which does slow down BA's interest in taking over KLM is the fact that KLM stock almost doubled in six month's time.. .SJ

METO power
16th Mar 2002, 16:40
Switch Jock. .. .I totally agree with you. VNV is toothless. Being on good terms with KLM management seems to be the main concern. The way VNV is set up it’s nothing but a conflict. The members are obliged to pay the union dues, however, they have no rights to participate in the decision-making. You cannot even vote on a new contract. The master executive council is negotiating the contract together with the other unions and KLM management. It is then presented to council, which consist of elected members of all airlines represented by VNV. They get to vote on it and nobody else. With other words, Pilots from Martinair, Transavia and so on help to decide if a contract for KLM Pilots is good or not. Again, a regular member has nothing to say about it. A crazy situation.. .. .Last year 1600 KLM pilots (75%) signed a petition to the management to introduce a jumpseat policy which was already worked out and crushed two week before implementation without any reason given. A copy was send to VNV, however it was completely neglected. . .. .So much for a strong union who is representing its members.

Long Haul
16th Mar 2002, 17:06
METO, There are vacancies in the ledenraad for almost every group. If you joined, then you could vote for or against the upcoming contract. (By the way, I totally agree with you, and am in favor of scrapping the LR altogether and having the members vote on all important decisions).. .. .driver,. .Well said. I hope that the VNV invites BALPA to negotiate the procedure beforehand and that they then together present the solution to the management.. .. .F.. .Very interesting point. I, for one, would definitely think long and hard if offered the chance to go to Buzz.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 13:07: Message edited by: Long Haul ]</small>

17th Mar 2002, 16:17
FOFIOO, I think you are right, if it is played well there are tremendous benefits for all pilots.. .But perhaps the KLM main line pilots are afraid and weary about seeing the benefits. Especially the less senior pilots in KLM would be happy, since there would be new oportunities in real flying. Endless travel as secound officer is not what they bargained for I suppose....... .Also for Transavia, Buzz & KLM uk drivers there would be great benefits.. .. .I sure hope that VNV does not make a mess of it this time.

17th Mar 2002, 18:03
Switch Jock, I reckon that one's point of view on the VNV depends on one's perspective.. .Not disputing your view per se, you being a member of the VNV know what you are talking about, although you do seem to have misunderstood the function of the "ledenraad".. .As for those 6 days; you are not the only ones giving them up mate, we do too! . .That particular gem was forced through by management cleverly and opportunistically making use of post-9/11 fears among employees. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .Looking at many other aspects of working conditions, work times, salaries, rostering etc, the VNV has without any doubt whatsoever managed time and time again to negotiate a far better deal for it's members than the VNC has ever managed for us.. .So comparing it to my own union, which after all frames my perspective, the VNV is mighty strong.. .. .You look at what might have been, and find the VNV toothless. We are both probably right.. .. .PS: That failed jumpseat deal was a shameful chickening out by envious management IMHO. Still amazed that you lot didn't stand up more for yourselves, especially since as far as i know, your NW colleagues had already implemented the whole thing to include you !. . . . <small>[ 17 March 2002, 15:29: Message edited by: flapsforty ]</small>

World Traveller
22nd Mar 2002, 13:50
Press release, Fri 22/3/02:. .. .KLM GROUP RESTRUCTURES TO FOCUS ON THREE KEY PRODUCT/MARKET COMBINATIONS. .. .KLM is restructuring the organization of the Group and its airline affiliates to fully support its strategy for serving the three key segments of the passenger market.. .. .KLM Group will focus on three product/market combinations and align its business to serve these segments:. .. .the global network operator, supported by regional feeder operations at its network hubs;. .. .the charter and scheduled services for the leisure market;. .. .the low-cost operations.. .. .Global network carrier and feeder operations. .. .KLM and its alliance partners maintain a global network operated from their hubs in Europe, the United States, Africa and Asia.. .. .KLM’s regional affiliates KLM cityhopper and KLM uk provide feeder services for the global network from regional European airports to and from the Schiphol hub.. .. .KLM’s global network and feeder operations will be strengthened by bringing KLM uk and KLM cityhopper together with an integrated management team.. .. .The organizations and operations of these two airlines will be more closely coordinated, while their flight operations with cost-effective Fokker 100, Fokker 70, and Fokker 50 equipment will be further optimized.. .. .Leisure operations. .. .Within the KLM Group, Transavia airlines will remain responsible for serving the leisure market. This airline currently operates successful charter and scheduled services to a wide range of vacation destinations in Europe, North Africa, the Mediterranean area and Central Asia.. .. .Transavia will standardize its fleet to one aircraft type, the Boeing 737, to ensure maximum operational flexibility and efficiency.. .. .Low-cost operations to be further developed and coordinated. .. .The KLM Group is currently active in the low-cost segment with two brands, one, buzz, operating from the UK, and the second, BASIQ AIR, operating from the Netherlands. Its experiences with both low-cost operations has led the KLM Group to decide to continue to play an important role in this fast-growing market. To optimize coordination, management of the low-cost product, operation and positioning will be placed in the hands of a single person for the KLM Group, effective April 1, 2002.. .. . . .. .Coordination. .. .The KLM board will maintain overall supervision to ensure that the various product/market combinations within the KLM Group are properly coordinated.. .. .After consultation with the Works Council, the following appointments will take effect on April 1, 2002.. .. .Peter Hartman, board member and chief operating officer - KLM, will take on leadership for the global network operations.. .. .Henny Essenberg, current EVP - Passenger Division, will be appointed his deputy. He will additionally focus on alliances for the KLM Group passenger business.. .. .Paul Gregorowitsch, current SVP - Sales & Distribution, Passenger Division, will become responsible for all commercial activities benefiting these passenger activities, including sales, marketing, distribution, and revenue management.. .. .Elfrieke van Galen, current managing director - KLM cityhopper, will additionally take on management of KLM uk as CEO, to ensure greater coordination between these two regional feeder airlines.. .. .Floris van Pallandt, current CEO - KLM uk, is appointed president & CEO - Transavia airlines. He will also be responsible for managing and positioning the KLM Group’s low-cost product and operations.

David Hurst
22nd Mar 2002, 13:58
And here's Transavia expanding the BASIQ AIR concept. Note the last paragraph about calling charter operations BASIQ as well.. .. .TRANSAVIA DOUBLES THE NUMBER OF BASIQ AIR DESTINATIONS. .. .22 March 2002, Schiphol. Effective 1 May, Transavia airlines will expand its scheduled BASIQ AIR services to include Madrid, Bordeaux and Marseilles. Along with Barcelona, Nice and Malaga, this brings the number of BASIQ AIR destinations to six.. .. .Based on experience with the low-fare flight product, the KLM Group wants to play a significant role in the rapidly expanding European low-fare market. Airlines currently operating services to Barcelona, Nice and Malaga are experiencing explosive growth in passenger numbers. This proves that reasonably priced BASIQ AIR flights tie in well with consumer travel behaviour, which is increasingly influenced by price considerations. The earlier customers book and pay for their BASIQ AIR flight, the less they pay. Adding Madrid, Bordeaux and Marseilles to the BASIQ AIR package will facilitate further expansion into the French and Spanish markets.. .. .Consumers on the lookout for reasonably priced fares can now take advantage of daily BASIQ AIR scheduled services to Madrid and Marseilles. With the exception of Thursdays, daily flights will be operated to Bordeaux. Fares to Madrid start at € 49 and to Bordeaux and Marseilles at € 29. From Saturday, 23 March, passengers can make reservations via the Internet (WWW.BASIQAIR.COM), by telephone via the call centres (0900-227 47 24 from the Netherlands, 0821 23 12 14 from France, 902 11 44 78 from Spain) or at their local travel agent.. .. .On commencement of the 2002 summer season, the BASIQ AIR concept will also be offered for close to 20 charter destinations in cooperation with various tour operators.

22nd Mar 2002, 19:40
The usual suspects from KLM management engaged in the Shark Shuffle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .It's an ill wind...................... .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

24th Mar 2002, 20:20
What kind of stupid remark is that?? Elfriek is one of the best managers around.. Henny Essenberg the same... .. .Better back it up with some valid arguments i would say.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />