Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)

[fantaman]

It would seem the end is nearing ever closer to the plight of Vulcan XH558, the worlds last potentially airworthy Vulcan.

Based at Bruntingthorpe, the Vulcan to the Sky trust have been trying for years to raise funds for her, however, even the addition of a lottery grant may not be enough.

Here is the press release from the Vulcan to the Sky Trust.

PRESS RELEASE 18.04.06
The battle is won but the war is not over! The restoration project approaches halfway to completion and ‘roll out' is planned in August this year for Avro Vulcan XH558, with test flight following shortly thereafter – and yet – the warrior may be vanquished!!

After eight years of investigation, preparation and fundraising it seems that the quest to return the last Avro Vulcan, to flight may have to accept defeat, just as the goal is in sight!

Unthinkable but a reality. Why? Because despite support from 20,000 donors who have given as much if not more than they can afford, a grant from the Heritage Lottery Fund and ‘Gifts in Kind' from some Equipment Manufacturers, the time lag between grant and contract, being both unexpected and unpredictable; the significant uplift in cost from two major aerospace contractors and the lack of an early commercial sponsor, means possible defeat for the return of Vulcan.
Bought for the Nation by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust (VTST), the restoration of Vulcan XH558 has always been complex, both in engineering and fundraising terms. But the energy and support that has been around for the past five years has sustained Vulcan to the Sky to date.

Sadly, a surprising 100% uplift on one major aspect of the contract and a further £500,000 ‘overrun estimate' in another are unaffordable in the timescale and could well be the last straw. That, together with the lack of a major sponsor at this stage looks like spelling disaster!
G-VLCN, as she will be when flying under civil registration, has been asked to participate in the 25 th Falklands Anniversary tribute in 2007 and other such commemorative events for the future and VTST were excited to accept. This will not now be possible if funds are not found to complete the work to ‘roll out' and beyond.

Tragic that this icon should be so near and yet so far from thrilling new generations; of paying tribute to national honour and to so eloquently epitomizing the era when a deterrent force kept peace in Europe .

Concorde will never fly again but Vulcan can - mother of Concorde, and a great, truly British, icon this aircraft should be supported to fly.
Vulcan is quintessentially British; her design was years ahead of its time and is still relevant in Aerospace R&D today; she is as significant to her era as is the Spitfire to the Second World War and she can be returned to flight!

The Access and Learning exhibition - the Outreach Museum – that will precede G-VLCN on her aerial journeys, will take the story of the Cold War to schools, colleges, universities and the wider community to share the experiences and historical facts of the era. A unique activity giving added value throughout the year to the historic facts of a deterrent force that did not fail and of a mission in the South Atlantic that undoubtedly helped bring an end to conflict. Sharing these little-lauded actions with new generations will inform and enhance their learning experience.

With rumoured flying costs of around £30,000 per hour, perhaps the good guys at the Trust have bitten off more than they can chew. Come on Mr Branson, you helped Sally B and wanted to help a Concorde, dig deep and help the Vulcan!

[rafloo]

No....Mr Branson...take your hand out of your pocket and spend your money on something worthwhile. I'm surprised that it was an intention to participate in a South Atlantic 25th anniversary...Chances are it would have missed the flypast and over flown some other celebration.....

[STANDTO]

based on the success of the sea vixen, has anyone approached RB and asked him for the money in return for painting it red and writing Virgin on it?

If we are going to be precious about camo I don't think it will happen

[EnginEars]

Hmmmmm:hmm:

Might not look too bad painted in the original white with a (not too big) virgin logo in place of one of the roundals.

I'm sure they'll find some more money before it has to have a really dodgy paint job. :yuk:

[Tim McLelland]

I've already thrown-in my two penneth about the Vulcan people on this forum, so I won't bother repeating it, suffice to say that I just wonder how a major project such as this can plod-on for so many years and still not find a major corporate sponsor. I mean, all these years? As has been mentioned, even the Sea Vixen found a sponsor, although God-forbid another poor aircraft appeared in Red Bull's vile colours, and especially not a Vulcan!

I have to question what the point is in continually asking enthusiasts and supporters to contribute small amounts of cash towards a project which needs large amounts of money. Surely, the project's administrators should be devoting all their time to finding a proper sponsor who would support the aircraft. You also have to ask whether Richard Branson has ever actually been asked to put his hand in his pocket, or at least asked properly.

They seem to spend time on lots of minor projects and small fund raising ideas, but don't appear to make any decisive effort to find a major sponsor. One has to wonder whether the time spent on small-scale fundraising just gives the impression (to potential sponsors) that the project is a small, amateur set-up that doesn't really need a proper supporter. Likewise, why isn't the aircraft on television or in the papers? News programmes are starved of good stories every day, and yet I've not seen 558 on the TV for years.

Worse still, I don't think anyone oustide of enthusiast circles really knows much about the project. There's no obvious "public face" that promotes the project, and there's never any obvious promotion of their website oustide of aviation publications. When you manage to get to the website it gives the impression that the project is an amateur fund-raising project, not an important national programme which should be treated as such.

Where are our MP's? Where are the papers? The TV? The radio? Celebrities? Even authors? (oops, I forgot, us authors are told to mind our own business when we try to help)...

I feel sorry for the guys that are putting all their efforts into restoring 558 because I have seen nothing to convince me that the project's administrators are handling the project all that well. Okay, I could be wrong, but part of my point here is that there's not much information made available to suggest otherwise.

[GeeRam]

You also have to ask whether Richard Branson has ever actually been asked to put his hand in his pocket, or at least asked properly.

As I understand it from reports a few years ago prior to the LHF grant award, yes he was asked, and yes he said a definate no.

[Tim McLelland]

Well who knows what has really happened over the past decade since the project started. Let's just hope that they get themselves a proper sponsor eventually, instead of having to continually beg for contributions which will inevitably dry-up and never quite be enough in any case!

Incidentally, what's all this in their press release about how a "Concorde will never fly again" ?
Er... says who?

Anyhow, I find all this news a bit strange - we're continually told how the Lottery people examine every case with great care now, so how can they suddenly throw money at the Vulcan only to find-out a few months later that the project is in danger of failing? Doesn't sound quite right to me. What exactly is this half-a-million "over-run" and what exactly is a "100 percent uplift" in English? And why wasn't everything finalised down to the last penny before the Lottery Fund handed-over their cash?

I'm still prompted to ask why there isn't any definitive information from TVOC as to what is really going on. It's all very well to quote "reports" and what people "have heard" but where are the facts and figures? I thought the Vulcan had been "handed to the nation" in which case, maybe the nation ought to be a little better informed?

[The Swinging Monkey]

I wish I could say that I am surprised, but I am not in the slightest! It is simply one thing after another with this aircraft, and now yet again, the team are asking for more funds and donations to put her in the air.

Frankly, I agree (for once!) with rafloo in that I too hope that Mr B does not help them out. The time has come for the aircraft to be put back together again, and displayed in a museum. No more money (from any area) should be ploughed into this White Elephant of a project.

RIP 558!

TSM

[A2QFI]

I think these are jargon for a project in progress going over budget and a tender for work to be done in the future, being increased by a certan %age.

[South Bound]

Push some of the cash into restoring some other, more affordable aircraft. Personally I would vote for a couple of Typhoon to strafe tanks at air displays, that would be splendid.

Can't get nostalgic about a V-bomber just because it was graceful and those that flew it thought it was special. Let's face it, it didn't actually do much apart from drop a few bombs nearly on target in the FI... Far more impressive service records to remember among the fleets of the rotting and museum-bound.

Sat back now, awaiting a torrent of abuse...:ok:

[Tim McLelland]

Let's not bother having a schoolyard scrap - we all know the Vulcan's significance, and I suspect that this latest development is merely a new angle to keep-up the money-raising momentum. But whatever the facts behind this, I'd still like to know precicesly what efforts have been made over the past few years, to get a proper sponsor. Don't suppose we'll ever find out though.

[hoodie]

Personally I would vote for a couple of Typhoon to strafe tanks at air displays, that would be splendid.

Can't - there's no ammo for the gun. Oh, you mean Typhoon, not TypHoon. :}

Regarding the availability of Lottery cash: My understanding was that the £3.5M (or whatever it was) was set aside for this project by the LC, rather than being paid in one lump. It was/is to be released in stages as additional supporting funds are raised from other sources.

If that's so (anyone confirm?), then it's quite possible that some lottery cash is still ring-fenced but is unavailable until or unless further non-lottery money is found.

[The Rocket]

Regarding the 100% uplift and £500 000 overrun.

Unfortunately, as much of a good cause the project may be, they are obviously relying upon the support of the OEM's to get the aircraft airworthy, by carrying out all the specialised deep maintenance. This was a CAA requirement, and a condition of the acceptance.

Sadly the OEM's are all businesses who are out to make as much profit as possible, and probably could not care less if the aircraft was to ever fly again. Is it really the fault of the VOC or the Heritage Lottery fund if the OEM's suddenly decide that "Oh dear, it's going to cost you a lot more than we initially estimated"?!?

Especially as one of the largest OEM's supporting the Vulcan project is British Waste of Space.:ugh:

I mean it's not like they've done that before now is it :hmm:

Personally, I sincerely hope that this project DOES succeed and will certainly be doing my bit, and dipping my hand into my pocket again. The sight and sound of the mighty Vulcan at airshows during my youth, was definitely one of the major influencing factors in my desire to join the RAF, and I'm sure that a whole new generation will have the same feelings stirred in them the first time they see the sky darken, and feel the ground shake beneath their feet;)

[GeeRam]

Push some of the cash into restoring some other, more affordable aircraft. Personally I would vote for a couple of Typhoon to strafe tanks at air displays, that would be splendid.

Tiffy's affordable......:eek:
Hmmmm.....I think you'll need a bit more than what's needed to get '558 in the air for that kind of project.....;)

New build airframe from scratch without the aid of a complete set of drawings left in existance IIRC, not to mention the problem of an almost complete lack of suitable Napier Sabre's and most other mechanical parts........

Yup, the Vulcan is a cheap project by comparison....:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Lincolshire Echo tonight carried a price list.

Elevons and Rudder - £16 935
Elevons - £9548
Nose Gear - £2991
Main Gear - £7122
Tyres - £6198
Oxygen Regulator - £2991
Beam compass - £9930 - beam compass ?
Attitude Director - £2930
Flexible Pipe - £6105
Fuel System Asbestos - £14693
Engine Confidence Test - £65120
Air Con - £2035
Instrument Test - £2035
Painting - £3581
Painting at Cranwell £3581
Fuel System - £50000
TBC - £30000 each.

I like the last two - good honest numbers rather than the precise ones above. Some of the above are replacements and some are for refurb.

Interesting what is outstanding. I guess that means things like hydraulics, bang seats, seals, panels, fuel systems, engines, fuel tanks etc are all bought and paid for.

[The Rocket]

There was a large amount of stores held in reserve as "War Stock" I believe, but obviously much of this will probably be vast quantities of the same items, and probably low value C-stores type items.

[Tim McLelland]

Three and a half grand to paint it at Cranwell? Is someone taking the p*ss?!
Where's my paint brush...

[brickhistory]

Mastercard ad?


Elevons and Rudder - £16 935
Elevons - £9548
Nose Gear - £2991
Main Gear - £7122
Tyres - £6198
Oxygen Regulator - £2991
Beam compass - £9930 - beam compass ?
Attitude Director - £2930
Flexible Pipe - £6105
Fuel System Asbestos - £14693
Engine Confidence Test - £65120
Air Con - £2035
Instrument Test - £2035
Painting - £3581
Painting at Cranwell £3581
Fuel System - £50000
TBC - £30000 e

Sight and sound of a Vulcan airborne, priceless!

[flipflopman RB199]

Tim,

Don't forget that it's not just the exterior of the jet that needs painting. There are many many constituant parts that have corroded/deteriorated over the years, that need painting too. This will make up the majority of the Cranwell painting bill.

Agree completely with Brickhistory though:ok:

[Roadster280]

This is becoming ridiculous.

Why is the RAF charging a measly £3500 for painting? Given the marvellous recruiting/PR boost that 558 will give the RAF, it seems churlish in the extreme to charge £3500 for painting. If it were £150k, then sure, but at £3500???

Come to think of it, why doesnt the RAF absorb the Vulcan into the BBMF, and rename it "Historical Flight"? Might give a chance to save the odd pioneering Jet-age aircraft, and at the same time help to improve the RAF's image, young and old alike.

In fact, if the RAF owned and flew it, rumour has it, they have a degree of experience of operating this, and other types of large aircraft! Who better?

Or is it me being naive?? Meanwhile, the MOD shells out millions to f***wits who live close to RAF stations and wonder why they can hear aircraft!!!! Better still, base the Vulcan and Lancaster at Odiham for noise reasons.

Grrrrrr!!!!!!

[Tim McLelland]

It's probably unwise to even begin carping at the new profit-motivated way in which the RAF is now operating, as we could start a whole new thread on that subject. Once upon a time, the RAF would have probably painted XH558 for free in recognition of the aircraft's significance to the service. Now, the accountants will just want to know how much money they can rake-in, and they'll probably want to stick their corporate brand "RAF logo" on it somewhere too! Still, you'd think that after the mess they made of it the last time they painted 558 (I mean, what the hell was that paint scheme supposed to be?) they'd at least offer to rectify things?!

As for Roadster's point, you do have to wonder at the way in which the Vulcan fits into the wider picture. Apart from the fact that the BBMF operates some very unusual BofB types (like the Spitfire 19 and the Lancaster), you could argue that the Vulcan's place in RAF history is no less significant, given that if the Vulcan's role had been a failure, we'd all have been fried many years ago. So, on the basis that the RAF can presumably ill-afford to operate any "show aircraft", one wonders why the MoD still shells-out money for the BBMF when all of their aircraft could be happily operated by civilians. I think the answer is because there's a widespread mentality which assumes that "history" ended in 1945, so we're morally obliged to regard only WWII aircraft as being historically significant. But I digress...

Many years ago, I speculated whether at least one Vulcan could have been retained by the MoD as a trials platform, being available for use in a variety of roles by the (then) RAE whilst still being available for show appearances. It could have been a vaguely cost-effective way of keeping XH558 (and maybe XL426) flying for a good few years. The irony was that just a few years later, David Walton was actively discussing the possibility of selling 558 to Nasa as a potential trials platform, so the idea wasn't as wild as I'd imagined! However, Nasa finally opted to use a Tristar/B-52 for Pegasus launching. Can you imagine - XH558 might have ended-up being painted er... white? Hmm...

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

Alas, it's not the RAF who paint things at Cranwell anymore. It's Serco. And like many other OEMs they don't do anything for free.

This is a very expensive project and if we care as much as we say we should keep trying to help out!!

Hand is already in my pocket. Have to see her in the air again!!! Too much work has already been done.

SSBS X

[Rigga]

I agree with SSBS that £3.5K is nothing for painting A Vulcan - and is probably only the material costs - e.g the paint and other treatments used - which cannot be supplied for free as the Company must show its stock movement.
Having been active in getting like-sized aircraft painted, there are no manpower or hangar costings in that sum.

Hands firmly out of my pockets.

[South Bound]

£3k5 Seems reasonable to me, you seen how much it costs to get a car resprayed?

(Still say scrap it tho! :E )

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

(Still say scrap it tho! :E )
::SSBS prepares to give ya a proper good b*st*rd slapping:: :E :D
Give them a pound. You know you'll get goose bumps seeing it fly again.

[South Bound]

SSBS

still laughing! Would give em a quid, but in the time it would take to get some money out of Mrs Southbound, British industry will have put the price up again and the little Southbounds won't get any birthday pressies this year....

[Flatiron]

Was sat in the RAF Club late last night discussing the 558 project with four distinguished Air Marshals, three of whom had close Vulcan connections. A previous AOC 1 Gp was still optimistic but another former Vulcan sqn boss recalled that when he was ACAS in the early 90s, he'd had to pull the plug on the last flying Vulcan because 'the RAF couldn't afford to keep it going.' We should keep that basic truth in mind. I loved flying the tin triangle but I lost a very good mate display flying at Chicago. If the RAF back then, 80,000 strong, with all the spares and workshops and in a pre-PFI/RAB bean counting age, could not afford to keep a single Vulcan flying safely, what price any civilian group 14 years later, no matter how dedicated?

[BEagle]

Flatiron, there was also considerable 'fast jet centric' animosity towards anything resembling a real bomber back in the early 90s! The RAF could have kept the aircraft flying in purely monetary terms, but from whose budget would the funding have come? Where would the crews have come from after the Victor had gone?

Yellow-jacket huggy-fluffy H&S :yuk: crap has driven up the cost of the project hugely. For example, much of the early funding was eaten up improving 558's hangar to modern engineering standards. Which are infinitely higher than those which prevailed at Scampton when you and I were sharing 35 Sqn cockpits together nearly 30 years ago!

Restoring 558 to flying condition will indeed be hugely expensive. But mustn't be allowed to fail at the eleventh hour. Once the aircraft is flying again, the running costs will be more manageable as 'appearance money' at airshows various will be quantifiable.

Anyway, why not update your fine book(s!) and donate a small element of the royalties to the project. And I hope those dining chums of yours last night had their chequebooks and pens with them as well!

[Yellow Sun]

I found the passage below on another forum:

I am not surprised by this latest turn of events. I have always been highly sceptical about the viability of the project and nothing would ever induce me to make any commitment to it, financial or other. I always wondered about the nature of the support that the '558 project attracted until I attended the V-Force reunion at Newark a couple of years ago. What struck me was that those most enthusiastic for it had little or no significant commercial aviation experience. The more exposure people had had to the harsh realities of aviation business, the less likely they were to see the project as viable. Why were voices not raised? Quite simply the "enthusiasts" did not want to hear what you said. If you disagreed with them, then you were disloyal. So, most just kept quiet and let them get on with it. Just to establish my credentials to hold an opinion, I did fly the Vulcan; I last flew it in 1972; and I did display it.

I think it sums up the whole sorry situation quite well.

YS

[Capt H Peacock]

I think it’s time for the nation to step back in and rescue this project now that it’s come so far. To waste the time, dedication, and effort that is gone in so far would be criminal.

The Vulcan stood by this country during the darkest days of the Cold War, and attacked the last enemy ever to try to invade British territory.

She deserves more than a blunties fate now. Never mind Blairforce One, give us back a symbol we can be proud of.

[fantaman]

G-VLCN, as she will be when flying under civil registration, has been asked to participate in the 25 th Falklands Anniversary tribute in 2007 and other such commemorative events for the future and VTST were excited to accept

How were they planning to get G-VLCN down to the Falklands? Surely that in itself is near impossible?

[Navaleye]

Fly it to Chile, via Brazil maybe. Put an extra tank in the bomb bay?

[fantaman]

I quite agree its possible but with an operating cost of approx £30,000 per hour. landing fee's, parking fee's how likely is it that the RAF or Gov't would play for that!

[backseatjock]

Rocket:

BAE does and has done for some time a considerable amount of work, free of charge, to keep some of the UK's aviation heritage flying and is contributing a good level of engineering support to the 558 Vulcan Trust activities.

A number of the UK's historical aircraft, display flying today, are doing so only because of the support fof BAE. The company is a regular sponsor of Red Arrows' tours, a hefty sponsor of Duxford Air Museum and a numbe of other important heritage projects. Whatever your personal views of BAE might be, your criticism in this area is unfounded.

[Tim McLelland]

"a regular sponsor of Red Arrows tours"... well they would be, wouldn't they?!

Incidentally fantaman, nobody ever said there was any proposal to fly XH558 to the Falklands. :)

[The Rocket]

backseatjock,

Not in this instance old bean. All personal views aside, BAES consistently quote a given price for a set amount of work and then, just past the point of no return, quote an astronomical figure safe in the knowledge that the customer MUST pay, or lose everything already invested.

Sadly, and to the VOC's detriment, BAES see them as no different. Yes they have done a certain amount of work toward the project at minimal cost, and have pledged ongoing support. However, they still charge princely sums for other work currently ongoing. Just as your local supermarket employs "Loss Leaders" whereby they sell cheap milk to make you buy overpriced teabags.

Sorry if this sounds condescending, but unfortunately have been witness to many similar decisions and policies by our illustrious market leaders:yuk:

[ZH875]

The company is a regular sponsor of Red Arrows' tours, Only because the Red Arrows are the 'Free Advertisement' for the Hawk, which just happens to be built by Waste of space.

If they put a little 'sponsorship' money in, little countries will buy the Hawk, and they get their 'sponsorship' money back tenfold in profit.

[green granite]

Fit an exec suite in place of the rear crew seats and use it as Blairforce one
be very impressive for him to arrive at a meeting in :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[backseatjock]

ZH875: if only aircraft sales and marketing was that simple, my life and that of my colleagues would be so much easier!! Little nations buying Hawk - biggest customer by far is the US - 234 for the US Navy. Going off thread here, but 23 of the world's air forces either own and operate Hawk or train their pilots in Hawks operated by someone else.

Reds' support helps position the product, no question of that because they are great ambassadors, but any sponsorship aint cheap and the sales job does require a bit more that the odd flying display.

Re Vulcan - those wonderful flying displays from days gone by have to be among my favourite childhood air show memories. Maybe Thunder City could be persuaded to chip in (he says lowering his funny cig) - it's great to see Lightning and Buccaneer still doing their thing down in SA!

[BEagle]

Try Googling the words ' BAE Systems' 'slush' and 'fund' and see how much money 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space can reportedly afford to throw around as sweeteners and bungs.

A shame that a tiny percentage couldn't be spent on our history instead of.....well, Google and see.

[DEL Mode]

And BEagle..

Is it BAE Systems fault that the hanger was not up to civilian standards?

[BEagle]

No. Nor did I ever infer that it was....

The hangar was certainly up to the standard of the RAF hangars in which 558 used to live in the Cold War - it's the ridiculously excessive Health and Safety :yuk: nonsense which made everything so costly.

[Navaleye]

Its a shame we can't rake up enough loose change to keep aviation history flying in the UK. Are there any plans for the Southend Vulcan to be returned to flight?

[fantaman]

Its a shame we can't rake up enough loose change to keep aviation history flying in the UK. Are there any plans for the Southend Vulcan to be returned to flight?

XH558 I belive has been kept in a hanger since it was retired and has had regular maintainance done on her ever since to keep her in flying condition. Any other Vulcan has been left to the elements or has been robbed of useable spares. It would cost double the cash or even more to restore any other Vulcan.

I'm afraid its XH558 or bust :(

[Tim McLelland]

I believe that the people at Southend have already agreed to simply maintain XL426 in a taxy status, having abandoned any hopes of ever flying it again.

I think it fair to say that regardless of or various gripes, we'd all hope that 558 does fly again, but this doesn't mean that we aren't entitled to criticise some of the aspects of the project. While lots of people are evidently working very hard on restoring XH558, I still think it's remarkable that so little feedback comes from the administrators of the programme. I think an occasional press release and the odd few lines in aviation magazines really isn't much for such a major project, especially when it is now supposedly a "national" heritage programme supported by the Lottery.

Raising cash through dontaions is fine, but it just seems like a very amateurish way to try and support such a hugely expensive project. I know that TVOC claim that they've been unable to find a corporate sponsor but come on, you'd think that in ten years, someone could have been found? Likewise, appointing a PR company that was evidently no good is simply not a valid excuse for appointing a better one, is it?

This subject has popped-up on lots of forum sites, and yet I still haven't seen so much as a line of response from TVOC. Maybe they don't even bother to look at such sites, in which case I wonder if someone from Pprune could draw their attention to these postings? You never know, they might even manage to respond?!

[fantaman]

Hi All,

I sent an e-mail to the trust today hoping to get an answer to a few of the burning questions raised on this and othe forums.

My E-mail to them
Good Afternoon Vulcan to the Sky Trust,

As I’m sure you’re aware, the recent press release by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust has raised more than a few questions. Most of these seem to be based on the UKAR and PPrune forums. I have added the links below.

http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=1;t=14106 (http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=1;t=14106)

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222368 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222368)

One of the recurring statements is that no one from the Trust seems to be answering the questions put forward by so many of the supporters, enthusiasts and critics. This now seems to be putting people off donating more money to the fund as many seem to think that the Trusts silence means there is much more lurking in the background.

Many on the PPrune forum see the project turning into a “white elephant”. I fear that if the Trust does not answer the questions put to them by its many supporters and critics, its stands to loose so much more than it can afford to. I’m sure you’ll agree, at this stage the trust needs all the help it can get.

The response
Thank you for your email and the references.I have visited the sites.

I would ask that you perhaps reply on these sites on our behalf and suggest that those who wish to know visit the Vulcantothesky website.

I am obviously most concerned that there are those who feel negative but we do communicate as much as we can and the latest press release is on our site and we have been on ITV across all the regions telling everyone that escalating and unexpected costs from contractors who are treating this project on a purely commercial basis have caused us a problem.

It is impossible for me to cover every outlet and to answer every question and, therefore, if you felt able that would be great. Please be assured, and pass this on to everyone concerned, that Vulcan to the Sky Trust has done everthing possible to make this project happen.Five years of blood, sweat and tears and, in my case, free of charge!

If it has to stop it will not be through any lack of good management or idle hope, it will be entirely due to costs that cannot be covered by voluntary donation and believe me we have tried to get a corporate sponsor.This may still happen but there is natural caution from such people until she is tested and flies and we may not have the time to get there before the Trustees have to call a halt.

This will be a tragedy should it have to happen but for whatever reason, and maybe those just stated, the extra money is not available at this time.

We have set up an escrow account for donations since the time we felt we may need to be concerned so any funds donated now can be returned.

I agree though people will be reticent to give in the likelihood of failure.

We continue to endeavour to open doors and will keep everyone updated on the VulcantotheSky website.

Thank for your support

[Tim McLelland]

Hmm, lovely statement which says absolutely nothing. Incidentally, who is the statement from?

I've just been looking through the TVOC website again. I'd love to know why it requires in excess of ten "Trustees" to run this project, and although they all seem happy to describe their past achievements, there doesn't seem to be one word to describe precisely what their role is within TVOC. Even more interesting is that the engineers who actually do the work, don't receive the same amount of coverage.

In particular, I'm amazed that the mysterious Dr Pleming appears to be the "Boss" in this programme and yet there isn't even the slightest indication of what he does, and how much time he is obliged to devote to the project. Even more intersting is that there's not a single word about how much he (and others) are paid for their efforts. What exactly does he do? Where is he? Why does he never manage to say much?

Frankly, given that the project is all about (as the website claims) "our" aircraft, then I think we're entitled to rather more information as to how both the fund-raising cash and Lottery money is being spent. I'm not the first person to raise this point, and whilst we would all be content to see that funds are being spent on necessary work, on on the wages/expenses of the people who are actually doing the restoration, there's no excuse for not being completely open about this matter. If this project really is a national concern, then the website needs a verified Accounts section.

The latest press release is presumably designed to "scare" people into making yet more donations, on the assumption that if they don't, the aircraft will never fly. If the reason for this plea is due to miscalculations of cash flow (as TVOC claim) then it's time we were shown the accounts so we can see exactly what is going on. On the other hand, if it is just a cynical attempt to gather more cash, one hopes that their attempt doesn't backfire and prompt the more "defeatest" donors to ask for their money back.

I still hope the project succeeds, but the more I read and hear, the less confident I am about the way in which the project is being handled.

[Rev1.5]

Having spent many years at the "dirty" end of aircraft maintenance, the guys (and gals) doing the hands-on work very rarely get any form of thanks. That priviledge is reserved for the "management"!

I was hoping this would be different in this case but alas......

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

Claws away ladies! Anyone on here joined the Vulcan to the Sky club I wonder and received their regular updates of info about the project? Crediting all those working their arses off and informing you more about what is being done there. That's the way to gather the info if you want it. Don't expect these very busy people to bring it to you and drop it in your lap.

Now, a more welcome topic would be how do we raise some substantial cash? I have been to my flying clubs and some very good suggestions are being put up and actioned. Alas, I am not sure it will be able to generate any quick fix cash for them but it'll be a start.

All we can do is spread the word and do our bit :D

The Falklands do is a UK based commemoration I've heard!

[Could be the last?]

Roadster 280:

Not a bad idea on the Historical Flight and go 1 stage further and have a "Joint" Flight so all 3 Services can maintain their flying history FLYING!:ok:

[Tim McLelland]

Don't expect these very busy people to bring it to you and drop it in your lap.


Au contraire - this project is now supported by the National Lottery, and we have a right to know precisely how money is being spent.

And who says "these people" are very busy? What, might I ask, does Dr Pleming and Felicity Irwin actually do all day? We're entitled to know, and it's certainly not up to us to be obliged to search for answers, or to join any supporter's club, in order to find out.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Another typical reply from the TVOC bunch of faceless individuals who spout lots, but actually say nothing.
I, like many others, have supported this project for more years than I care to recall and I am now fed up of hearing the same old bleeting comments about why they need more money, because things were underestimated, over-charged, 'not foreseen' blah. I did very much want to see the old girl get back in the air, but now I firmly believe that the time has come to simply let her RIP in a museum somewhere. Am I the only one who is sick to death of hearing how it is always some one elses fault, and never TVOC??
Those responsible at TVOC have a lot to answer for, and I would welcome an open public debate where those of us who have paid good money to them can have the opportunity to ask them some serious and difficult questions, and maybe get some straight and honest answers.
It is my belief that a lot of people are making a pretty good living off the back of this project, not least of all the 10+ members of the trust! (Maybe one of them might like to disclose his/her 'earnings'? or maybe that info is readily available through the charity commision or something??
And why does it need 10+ of them as Tim says? what do they all do? What does any of them do?
Dr Pleming, if you are reading this, then please have the courage and commitment to answer some of the questions raised in this forum. Likewise, please tell me why you have not had the common decency to reply to any of my e mails or letters or to the correspondance from lots of my friends and colleagues about the project?? Being asked difficult questions is NOT a reason to deny a reply.
SSBS. Your comments are simply invalid. As Tim rightly points out, this project now attracts lottery funding as well as all the public money donated and I think they have a duty to inform us of the progress, after all, what are the 10+ doing????
And very busy people?? who exactly are you talking about?? the engineers or the 10+ 'nobodys'? You will be asking us soon to believe that they are so busy that they don't all have other jobs and occupations!
BEagle. Of course the hangar was up to the standard of the RAF hangars in which 558 lived, and yes, the ridiculously excessive Health and Safety nonsense has made everything costly, but that is NOT an excuse for TVOC to get it wrong in the first place. After all, if they didn't see this problem (or most of the others) then the word 'incompetance' springs to mind.
The most 'welcome topic' would be to hear that the project is finally being wound up once-and-for-all, and that the aircraft is being put back together, and those responsible for the 'farce' are being investigated.
The time has come to let her go. Let the old girl take pride of place in a museum and let's stop wasting money on a project that is way past its sell-by date.
Regards
TSM

[Winco]

Yes, I think the Monkey has pretty much said it all.
I am also disturbed at the number of excuses that eminate from the Vulcan crowd about how things had not been included in the calculations etc. Clearly, those responsible for the initial budgeting need to account for their short comings. I also agree that it seems to be everyone elses fault except theirs, and that tends to convice me that it is pretty much ALL their fault.

BEagle, you and I served together many years ago now, and I always admire your (usually!!) balanced argument, but do you not agree with TSM that someone should have forseen this nonesence called H&S?? after all, its been around for quite a while now, and I know from bitter experience that the power they weild is almost unbridled. I simply cannot understand why it has come as such a shock, (and at such a late stage) to the Vulcan people. After all, they are all civilians, and it is not like they are working to a (lesser?) military H & S standard?

I also read Plemings report and found it lacked any substance and commitment to the project, and I can understand why so many are disturbed at his failure to respond to their taxing questions. Maybe we should get DT to ask him directly and perhaps we may get a reply??

I still hold out a very thin sliver of hope for 558, but it is very thin and will snap soon I fear, unless things start to progress and those involved can be seen to be doing something worthwhile, and simply not putting the blame for everything onto others.

The Winco

[Dak Mechanic]

I quite like the "Blairforce One" idea.

The nice leather executive seats would go into the bomb bay, and from there it's only a flick of a switch to new government......

I'm sure Gordon Brown would fund that :E

J

[Safety_Helmut]

But that thieving Jock would be in there too !

[Tim McLelland]

Well, I guess we simply await more news from TVOC. As some people know, I've started work on a new Vulcan book which will be more than double the size of the last one I wrote, and I will be including a very substatntial section on XH558 even without the assistance of TVOC. Certainly, if they still want to maintain their aurua of secrecy then they're welcome to do so, but I certainly don't propose to avoid telling 558's story as it is, "warts n all".

If Pleming and co. continue to say nothing, then I will of course seek further information from the Lottery people, as I'm sure they will be rather more forthcoming!

[Winco]

Tim,
that sounds a jolly good idea (talking to the Lottery folk) What about getting your MP to ask a question in the house?? certainly in the RAF, that would generally get things moving at a quite alarming rate! and many (senior) Officers would have fears of their pensions going down the pan!

I think that as far as Pleming is concerned, you stand about as much chance of getting a responce as I have and many others! Clearly he only wants to talk to people when things are going well. Anything else and he clearly doesn't want to know.

Do you have a list of all the other 'personalities' involved with 558? It would be intersting to see who has their finger in the pie so-to-speak. Never know, it might just throw up a few surprises!

The Winco

[BEagle]

Tim, your hostile public stance towards Robert Pleming is hardly going to lead to greater access to the latest '558 story, I feel.

This year is the golden anniversary of the Vulcan's entry into service in 1956. A time when our aeronautical technology was world beating.

Nowadays the nation's youth are barely interested in aeroplanes, except when they take them on holiday. One aim of the '558 programme should be greater air-mindedness amongst the young; perhaps the gentle murmur of 4 x Olympi at full chat might make them wake up and look up?

Sponsorship is crucial. Personally I don't really care whether '558 is painted white, green and grey, sky blue pink or bright scarlet (wouldn't that look good at the front of the RAFAT?), as long as it flies again.

Vulcan = Woodford = Manchester. Isn't there some footie team 'oop therr' which rather likes the colour red? Perhaps they might be persuaded to spare a bob or two if the jet was painted appropriately?

[The Gorilla]

Beagle

That certain red football team ooop thare is now owned by an American business
tycoon who cares even less for our history circa 1956 than today's Yoof. Manure Utd only accepts sponsorship deals, it doesn't make them!

The 558 program has suffered from that old problem of British management God bless em. See the NHS saga to be reminded that no matter how much money is thrown at a project, if the managers are cr*p then so is the result. I for one will not donate any more money to this particular project.

:ok:

[Tim McLelland]

More on this saga can now be found on the appropriate thread on the UKAR site. One of their members forwarded some of our gripes to TVOC, and Felicity Irwin has now sent them (us) a reply which is on the forum thread.

I've added my response to that, so I won't take-up space by repeating it here, suffice to say that most of the relevant points are covered there.

The saga contines...:)

Incidentally Beagle, I'm sorry if I sound a little hostile towards Dr Pleming, but I'm ultimately more concerned with the welfare of XH558. He can either answer our questions or decline as he sees fit, but either way, I certainly don't propose to ignore him. If he wants to be the "Boss" of this project then he has to be answerable for his actions, one way or another. I've heard too many unofficial "off the record" moans about him to think that the matter should simply be overlooked - it wouldn't be doing any of us any favours and it certainly wouldn't be helping 558 to fly again.

[BEagle]

That's understandable, Tim. But let's try not to undermine all the efforts being made to get '558 airborne. I for one am not going to throw in the towel at this stage and sincerely hope that others won't!

OK - I'll admit to being a bit biased, having had the chance to taxi '655 briefly last year and to run the engines up to just short of the 'rutting dinosaur' noise point! Can't wait to see the Vulcan fly again, rather then just bellowing its way down Wellesbourne Mountofrd or Southends' runways!

[GeeRam]

Rutting Dinosaur.....:ok:

Beags…with your knowledge, please correct me if I’m ranting off at a tangent here…:ok:

But, my long standing unease with the whole ‘558 situation has been the apparent go it alone methods of TVOC in relation the rest of the civil operated ex-mil jet operations?

My view, maybe misplaced, would have been to try and generate a sound business plan to find a commercial use for the old girl once airworthy rather than a pure airshow display role, which is why many sceptics have always questioned the viability of the operation of such a complex and hugely expensive bit of kit for a such a single purpose, especially considering the lack of budgets of many of today’s airshow organisers. The display rate for a civilian operated Vulcan must be staggering….:eek:

Civilian contract use for her to earn a living as well as some display work I would have thought would have made more business sense and may have not had to drag in the HLF.
Were HHA/Delta Jets/Air Atlantic’s etc., experiences tapped into?
It’s range capabilities would have enabled contract use in the USA and even maybe stints at Thunder Cities Test Pilot school use could have been a potential revenue earner but still allowing occasional display use.

Or am I being unrealistic here?

[mfaff]

IIRC it was the good doctor who purchased 558 and the 600 odd tons of spares initially and invested a not inconsiderable sum of his own money in the long term hire of the hanger and the stores and so on and so forth.

It was also a 'last resort' in getting the HLF interested as the condition (charitable Trust status) effectively meant him handing over his asset and subsequent investment for no financial return...

So whilst it is correct to press for answers it has to be done with the knowledge that the person 'in charge' has every reason to feel justified in his approach and the results it has so far achieved... in actually getting to the stage where money is the biggest obstacle.. not the CAA or insurance world..

As for the finances of a Charity; the publication of audited accounts for the previous financial year is the only information we have a 'right' to know...certainly the fact that HLF monies are involved does not give an automatic 'right' to know all of details beyond that...so whilst we may think it judicious in PR terms; to be more open its not an obligation.

I think the good doctor has invested time in ensuring his links with both other a/c operating companies and other avaition bodies is as current as it could be... presenting the project to the HAA (at the RAFM) in Ocotober 2005 and to the RAES at Boscombe Down, in April 2006...

And sad to report that 'unexpected' costs and funding issues is inherent in this type of work...and any contract a contractor will sign up to is always going to have a clause that permits claiming of additional monies...similary no PR company will agree to a solely 'performance' based contract.. the work has to be done regardless of getting the results required.. its all 'at risk' for the employer. You would get a better rate from somebody who personnally belives in the cause and has the werewith all to do so..

[GeeRam]

IIRC it was the good doctor who purchased 558 and the 600 odd tons of spares initially and invested a not inconsiderable sum of his own money in the long term hire of the hanger and the stores and so on and so forth.

Err....no it was David Walton that bought '558 and the spares etc from the RAF and covered the costs of hangerage at Brunty.

[mfaff]

Gee,

I stand corrected...would I also be mistaken in saying that his own finances were used to set up the team that lead to the VTS in 2000..and hence kick start this endeavour?

[Tim McLelland]

Exactly, it was David Walton who bought 558, and Pleming came along much later. This is why there are so many tales going around about Pleming's motivation, the precise nature of his role, and precisely how much money he's getting paid for his efforts. Naturally, it may well be that he's doing an excellent job and should be getting our full support and thanks, but let's face it, he doesn't exactly go out of his way to explain his position, does he?

On a more personal level, I thought it strange that my dealings with David Walton were always helpful and friendly. Precisely the opposite situation arose when Pleming appeared. Consequently, this fact, combined with all the tales I keep hearing, suggests to me that he ought to be doing rather more to justify his current position within TVOC. I don't think it's unfair to ask him to do that, is it?

Incidentally GeeRam, I did suggest something very similar to your proposal many years ago, before the RAF disposed of 558. Unfortunately, it now transpires that 558 hasn't really got sufficient flying hours remaining to use them on anything other than display flying, if it's "twilight career" on the show circuit isn't to be unreasonably short. Still, I suppose TVOC could have a go at restoring XL426 once 558 is worn out?!:eek:

[spekesoftly]

Some answers to the many questions raised on this thread can be viewed here (http://www.tvoc.co.uk/qanda.php)

[ANW]

Courtesy of this thread link, an interesting assumption re costings may be found here
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=277&page=5
then backtrack through the posts until you come to 20th April 2006, 15:48.
Have to admit that as much as I would like to see a Vulcan airborne again, the project was a non starter from day one.
Just the memories now of living near Woodford and seeing Roly Falk rolling the white triangle which had me spell-bound.
Apparently volunteer work on the white triangle at Woodford (XM603) was stopped some time ago when H&S got involved.

[FJJP]

The white triangle at Woodford fell at the CAA hurdle, from what I hear. Because the CAA were not involved in the engineering reconstruction, they were not prepared to give it a permit to fly. Pity, because the TP, Al McDicken, has extensive Vulcan experience [operational], having done several tours on it in his yoof...

[spekesoftly]

About ten days ago the tvoc website (http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php) mentioned an ITV regional programme about the restoration of XH558:-

"ITV visited Bruntingthorpe and recorded an item on the restoration of XH558 and the need for extra funding and it is scheduled to be shown at the following times on the following regional programmes."

Some of the regional scheduling is still shown as "tba". Can anyone please advise on the missing dates?

[Pontius Navigator]

Interesting message passed my desk today.

MOD Box is looking for an aircraft elect to do a non-established re-wiring job on XH558.

Looks like official backing will win through in the end.

[insty66]

PN
I might possibly know a man who would like to help.
Could you let me know some details please?

Cheers
I66

[Pontius Navigator]

Insty I will try and remember to bring the details home. I sem to remember they were looking at Cpl SAC for about 6 mnths work.

[peppermint_jam]

Interesting message passed my desk today.

MOD Box is looking for an aircraft elect to do a non-established re-wiring job on XH558.

Looks like official backing will win through in the end.

I saw this signal a few weeks ago. If memory serves it was asking for LAC or SAC voulenteers to do said work at Bruntingthorpe for 6 months, who would not be required to sign for their own work. I thought the closing date was weeks ago though. I did enquire further, as I'm a Fairy J/T and thought I might be in with a chance of being eligable. However, the day before the closing date there was no plans as to where they intended to accomodate said personel! Something I would have thought they might have arranged prior to the signal released. I'm guessing Cottesmore would be the nearest RAF camp?

Should have the contact details of the Wg Cdr @ strike I spoke to, who was a really nice guy and very helpful, i'll have a look.
p_j

[Pontius Navigator]

As there are two of you I will go open.

The original message I have was 3 May and the most recent is 5 May. Even if you are too late, it started yesterday, it suggests that that is not a problem.

paraphrasing

<<Your voulunteer should contact the Chief Clerk or OC PSF for this unestablished task from CMLO2 STC.

It is for an LAC/SAC AE Tech or A Tech AV multi skilled volunteers (plural) to rewire XH 588. It is for the periuod 15 May - 31 Oct and the accommodatin will be at Cottesmore.

It says roulement will be permitted. I guess it means you don't have to do the full stint and th eparent station pays any costs - but that is a guess.

It is Restricted so I don't want to release more unless you have a candidiate and they need more.>>

[The Swinging Monkey]

Looks like someone else is getting a bit miffed with the Brunters lot.
Dave T, if you read this, can you not get the good doctor or the good lady to respond?
Kind regards
TSM

[Blacksheep]

If I remember my electrical "Mod Squad" days in Waddington's No. 3 Shed correctly, it'll take more than a couple of SACs to rewire a Vulcan... :=

[insty66]

PN
Thanks for that I've directed the person to the details you've posted.
Hope his bosses help him and I hope he can encourage more to join in.:ok:
What great thing to be involved in:ok: :D

[Colonal Mustard]

Mastercard ad?
Sight and sound of a Vulcan airborne, priceless!


And the constant chatter of old ford sierra car alarms after it flew past slowly before throttling up and climbing above the airshow:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

New message about service assistance to the VTTS project.

The period is 5 1/2 months. The start date, off the top of my head, is 15 Jun. It is very high profile.

They are looking for 6 LAC/SAC, the selling points are that they do not need an oversignature as Marshalls wil provide oversight and they will be able to learn valuable skills.

It looks like the publicity is not getting around the bazaars.

If you know any young, keen, green, wanna do a great job, guys then give them the good news.

[mary_hinge]

Sorry to read this paper but a double page article on the Black Buck run to the Falklands (on April the 31st:ugh: ) Aircrft 607 Simon Baldwin!

As to why there is no mention or link to the VOC is any ones guess but again looks like a missed opportunity.

[Rigga]

"They are looking for 6 LAC/SAC, the selling points are that they do not need an oversignature as Marshalls wil provide oversight and they will be able to learn valuable skills.
It looks like the publicity is not getting around the bazaars".
Maybe the lack of reaction is indicative of a lack of enthusiasm from those who know nothing of the mighty Vulcan, and possibly dont want to work for free. It won't further anyones career to work on a Vulcan display.
Why are LAC's and SAC's being asked to volunteer to do this work? (Whatever it is!) Whats wrong with the VTS group of 'volunteers' doing this work?
Smacks of too many Pilots and not enough Indians (Pardon my metaphors)

[Pontius Navigator]

It looks like the publicity is not getting around the bazaars".
Maybe the lack of reaction is indicative of a lack of enthusiasm from those who know nothing of the mighty Vulcan,

This could well be true.

"and possibly dont want to work for free. It won't further anyones career to work on a Vulcan display. "

Who said 'free'?

The signal specifically said it would br a good career enhanvement learning valuable skills.

""Why are LAC's and SAC's being asked to volunteer to do this work?""

Because LAC/SAC stand to gain most?

PS, Don't shoot me I am just passing on the word

[Rigga]

PN,
Sorry if I sounded angry, it was not aimed at anyone in particular, but I did strongly react to what I see as a potential abuse of Smallies!

I agree no-one said "Free" - but no-one serving in the RAF will get any career changing experiences from working this aircraft.

I feel this is a request for cheap labourers because VTS cannot afford 'voluntary' support from it's own workers. Gone are the days when you could just feed engineers and mechanics and then send them out to work. Now we all want pay and good accomodation - instead of living in a transit/barrack block for weeks on end (I did the airshow circuits for four years, as ground and air crew). Accomodation is likely to be the best reason for VTS guys not doing it.

In addition, in these times of sparse manpower, I can't see who would loan out mechanics? or what LAC's/SAC's would gain from this experience? They would get more "Cred" from working on Spitfires that are well outside their normal experience scope.

You must agree that flying is an expensive sport, not to be taken lightly or cheaply.

If anyone can afford to get an aeroplane such as this airworthy - they must afford to get it properly supported too, or they will lose it very quickly.

Is this a long-term Project with realistic support budgets? or a whimsical Hobby to get some last flights in a bygone Icon?

Whinge over - waiting for the "Incoming!"

[possel]

<snip>

Do you have a list of all the other 'personalities' involved with 558? It would be intersting to see who has their finger in the pie so-to-speak. Never know, it might just throw up a few surprises!

The Winco

Reading this thread for the first time, it seems that this question was never answered. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is registered charity no 1101948 and its trustees are SIR DONALD SPIERS KCB TD FRAES, MRS FELICITY IRWIN DL, SIR MICHAEL KNIGHT KCB AFC FRAES, SIR CHARLES BEECH GORDON MASEFIELD, MR EDWARD INMAN OBE, MR GEOFFREY POOL, MR GILES IRWIN FCA, MR JOHN NICHOLAS SHARMAN, and MR KEITH DOUGLAS MANS BA FRAES

This is readily available from the Charity Commission website. I doubt that any of these people will feel the need to make money from the Trust, as an earlier post implied.

Worryingly, however, the trust submitted its accounts late for 2004 and are now a few days late for 2005 (year end 31 July 05 means due by 31 May 06). Perhaps the CC website is a few days out of date.

More worryingly, "R W Pleming Consulting" was paid £48,684 by the VTTS Trust in the year ended 31 Jul 04 (follow the accounts document link at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1101948 and see the last page). It would be interesting to know what they (he) did for that?

[Gainesy]

Is the type of work for these LAC/SACs specified? Is it skilled or along the lines of "Here's a crate of Brillo pads, we need it stripped back for a re-spray"?

[GeeRam]

Is the type of work for these LAC/SACs specified? Is it skilled or along the lines of "Here's a crate of Brillo pads, we need it stripped back for a re-spray"?

Skilled I believe, as the original post that brought this up stated it was for the re-wire of '558....

Part or complete thereof isn't mentioned........but when was the last time a re-wire of a Vulcan was done.....must have been late '70's at least...:uhoh:

[FJJP]

It was never formally re-wired IIRC. Looms were changed when needed. I can testify to the fact, because on several occasions I have assisted in loom changes and the old loom literally crumbled to dust!

You must remember that the Vulcan overflew its intended life by more than 100% - re-wiring was never part of any extension deal. Extension to FI required selected structural monitoring and repair; some items were lifed in hours or calendar according to the risk factors involved; some bits were never touched [inc most of the non-vital wiring - and I mean vital in the electrical system sense].

[Pontius Navigator]

Gainsy, the skill set to be gained will be creating wiring looms and their connectors.

As far as accommodation is concerned it will be at Cottesmore. Don't know the standard of accommodation there but a good place to be if you are from El Adem with grass, or woolly Wales etc.

[airsound]

possel
More worryingly, "R W Pleming Consulting" was paid £48,684 by the VTTS Trust in the year ended 31 Jul 04 (follow the accounts document link at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1101948 and see the last page). It would be interesting to know what they (he) did for that?

Possel

I should start by saying that Dr Rob Pleming is a good friend of mine, so this post will perhaps not be totally unbiased. However, it does have the advantage of being based on personal experience. I should also say that I have not consulted him before writing this post, and he is unaware that I am doing so.

Rob Pleming, not very long ago, was earning a lot more than £48,684 a year. I believe he could do so again if he wanted to. He was at a peak of a very distinguished career at the top levels of international business.

He decided to give it all up and devote all of his working life (and a significant proportion of his private life) to the Vulcan to the Sky project. I believe it is true to say that, without him, the project would have foundered a long time ago. Apart from anything else, it would probably not have achieved the extraordinary and unique grant from the Heritage Lottery Fund - a grant which only came about after much lengthy and frustrating battering of heads against various apparently impenetrable brick walls. Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen.

I know nothing of the accounting figures, but I am absolutely prepared to believe that if R W Pleming Consulting charged £48,684, you can rest assured that the project got a lot more than that in added value.

Quite simply, VTTS is very lucky to have someone as good as Rob Pleming.

airsound

[Krystal n chips]

Gainsy, the skill set to be gained will be creating wiring looms and their connectors.
.

Erm, I hate to shatter illusions here P N, but, a long time ago in a different Air Force, there were lots of guys at a place called Sealand doing just that--some escaped-so they thought--to 431MU where guess what ? ---"a little mod programme for you chaps--just take these bits of wire and er, re loom etc"---OK, so I was Airframes, but we also got roped in at times and there is nothing more repititive than creating a loom---it's not that difficult after all--just follow the diagrams and voila ! --one loom later and you can start on the next :{ . It's also a labour intensive job as well-which explains I assume, why the call was sent out for help. How it can be classed as improving a basic skill set, is, in my humble opinion, just a shade overstating the case now isn't it ? ;)

[FJJP]

It could be that there a few ENTHUSIASTS amongst our highly skilled Eng brethern who might actually WANT to be part of the team to get the old lady back in the air again. Not everyone is totally focussed on career advancement and making loadsa dosh.

Besides, some might welcome a break from the endless run of det after det...

[Krystal n chips]

[QUOTE=FJJP]It could be that there a few ENTHUSIASTS amongst our highly skilled Eng brethern who might actually WANT to be part of the team to get the old lady back in the air again. Not everyone is totally focussed on career advancement and making loadsa dosh.

QUOTE]

That's a fair point FJJP----from one who, many years ago, had the privilege of working on the Lanc :ok: --did a lot of work on the port flap, spent a few hours merrily flicking the heads off those pretty green headed rivets on the mainplane, sat in the thing and wondered about those who also sat in one many years before---and considered the job a labour of love----and never did get the promised ride in it either !!!-----:mad: --along with everybody else who worked on it at the time of course --conned again ;)

[Rigga]

Actually, If the 'Request' mentioned re-stringing the plugs and sockets on a Vulcan I would assume that is why there has been little, or no, response.
There is very little 'skill' involved in marking a floor and pulling cables to length, many,many times. Polish Plumbers would be more enthusiastic and do the job for less.
Accomodation in a Transit Block is very dire in the best of places, It is not like staying in a Mess. A cosy Basher on Ascension Island can still be a hot little hut when you have nothing else to go to.

[Winco]

Possel
Many thanks for that (I hadn't expected to get a reply to be honest with you.) I agree entirely with you about the worrying amount of money paid to the good Dr P. I had been led to believe (by more than one source) that ALL of these people on the trustees list were giving 'their' time and expertise free - clearly that is not the case, and I wish I could say that I am surprised. Was there any mention of the 'others' payments?

airsound,
I do not doubt you for one minute that Dr P is a very nice chap. But so what? What has that got to do with this project? £50K is a great deal of money by anybody's standard and I would question your comments about value for money etc. I would simply say that at the moment the project is (yet again!) scratching around for money and , again looks like folding.

And lastly, your comment...'Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen' hmm, interesting observation that in light of recent events and press announcements.

Still, lets wait and see what happend eh?
The Winco


...

[airsound]

Winco
I may be making a quite unwarrantable assumption, but the name Winco suggests to me that you might have been a staff officer at some time. If that is the case, have you forgotten the golden rule of written arguments? The rule is - always read the thing you’re going to argue against before arguing.

airsound,
I do not doubt you for one minute that Dr P is a very nice chap. But so what? What has that got to do with this project?
...
There is nothing in my post about the niceness or otherwise of Rob Pleming. I was arguing that he is an exceptionally able, highly qualified person to be doing this job. In fact, he is qualified in both engineering and business terms. And I was also suggesting that he is working very hard at this job at some sacrifice to himself.

And lastly, your comment...'Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen' hmm, interesting observation that in light of recent events and press announcements.
...
As I believe was clear in my post, the point about the head banging referred solely to the success of the Heritage Lottery Fund grant, without which the project would have foundered. Getting that grant was unprecedented, since the arbiters of the Fund argued long and hard that money could not be given to an artifact that moved. Success was achieved only by an enormous amount of hard work, and much unwillingness to give up, even in the face of sometimes apparently unwinnable odds.

Feeling as strongly as you do about Rob Pleming’s part in this, why don’t you write to him and ask him the questions you want answered? You can easily contact him through the website.

I accept that you may have a point when you say “the project is (yet again!) scratching around for money and , again looks like folding.” - although I wouldn’t put it as strongly as that. I believe that there is still a worthwhile probability that we will see this Vulcan fly again. But please remember that this has always been a risky project - nothing anywhere near this scale has ever been attempted in the historical aircraft preservation field.

Would you have had them never try in the first place?

I suggest a bit less carping and a bit more positive support at a time when it is sorely needed might be a very good thing.

airsound

[sedburgh]

Possel
Many thanks for that (I hadn't expected to get a reply to be honest with you.) I agree entirely with you about the worrying amount of money paid to the good Dr P. I had been led to believe (by more than one source) that ALL of these people on the trustees list were giving 'their' time and expertise free - clearly that is not the case, and I wish I could say that I am surprised. Was there any mention of the 'others' payments
...
If you look at the register of Charities at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1101948 you will see that Dr Pleming is not a trustee, in general trustees may not be paid for their work and any payment made to a trustee for services is likely to require the approval of the Charity Commisioners, the rules are at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/publications/cc11.asp

[Blacksheep]

Would you have had them never try in the first place?
Too right. The money and time that has been spent on this would have been very useful to quite a few other worthwhile projects.

And once they do get it flying, then what? Who's going to pay the running costs? Air Display sponsors? Even the RAF had to give up on that: just like the BBMF, MOD would have kept the display flight going - if it had been making a profit. :ugh:

[The Swinging Monkey]

airsound,
May I come to the support of the Winco.
Firstly, I don't think for one minute that Pleming is 'Not a nice chap' and your comment makes little sence to me frankly. (I assume that if he IS a good friend of yours, then you do regard him as a nice chap, or don't you?)

You say in your post.....'he is an exceptionally able, highly qualified person to be doing this job' and say that he is a businessman. Maybe then, you could explain why there have been so many 'errors' and 'oversights' made with this project? and why there is a bi-monthly announcement about the lack of funds? Who keeps getting it wrong then? I would suggest that they are not the signs of a successful bussiness person.

And as for writing to Pleming....I can only suggest that you look at this forum and others about that. I myself have written to Pleming and e mailed him, on a number of occasiions and I know of many others who have done likewise. Not one of us have had a reply from Pleming or indeed from anyone else in the project - shameful quite frankly!

And lastly.......'Would you have had them never try in the first place? ' I am saddenned to say that the answer is now a resounding YES. Too many people (myself included) have lost far too much of their hard-earned cash on this project. If I had known that any of my donations to this project would have gone for Plemings 'consultancy' then I WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN, and I suspect a great many others would have felt the same.

I have been a supporter of this project for a long time. I have given generously to it and, as ex Vulcan aircrew, I wanted more than to see the old girl take to the skies once more. However, it is sadly, time to call it a day and let her rest in peace.

Kind regardes to all
TSM

[Winco]

swinging monkey,
thank you for your support.

airsound.
I'm not sure what some of your points are about, but hey, not to worry.
Yes I was a Wg Cdr, Yes I did Staff college and YES I did read your comments thoroughly! I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly in hindsight) that you regarded Dr Pleming as a very nice chap, simply because you had personal experience of him and he is a friend of yours. If that was the case, and he is NOT a nice chap, then I'm glad to take a hit.

I would echo what swinging monkey has said about donations and how they have found their way into Dr Plemings bank account. I would also concur that the British public would be less than happy about that arrangement and, I assume, some of the others that have occurred during the life of this project. In fact, I would suggest that most of them will be furious to know that their cash has gone to Dr Pleming.

I would also take issue about writing to Dr Pleming. I have written to him on more than one occasion (and not behind the mask of anonymity as on PPrune) without receiving any form of reply or acknowledgement whatsoever from him or his team. I read recently on their website that the reason Dr Pleming does not reply to individuals is because he does not want to be mis-interpreted (or something like that)
Well, I can understand that to a degree, but to simply ignore peoples letters and e mails etc shows a crass lack of respect for the very people who are providing you with the money for the project (aswell as your wages!)

Airsound, I don't want to get too drawn into a conflict over this project. God knows there has been enough 'bad blood' over the years surrounding it. I would just conclude by saying that I do not share your undying confidence in Dr Pleming or his team, and I am pleased he is not heading up the company I now work for! I regret that in light of recent 'disclosures' I will NOT be supporting the project any more, sorry.

The Winco

[BEagle]

The Vulcan will fly again! Of that I am sure.

However, for just how long will depend upon the financial position - a major sponsor is really needed.

Time to stop the usual British whingeing and show positive support for once. Next year is the 25th anniversary of the Malvinas ar$e-kicking and 558 should surely participate.

Bit of a bugger if they invaded again, now that we have no Vulcans and nor radar-equipped naval fighters.

[South Bound]

Beags

I suppose the problem is that most people (like me) just cannot get sentimental over an old aircraft that they never flew and never actually did very much apart from represent a capability that (fortunately) was never needed. I would much rather give my spare cash to other, more worthy causes. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice if someone could chip in a million or 2 to get it flying again as I am sure it would look impressive, but asking normal folks to support an enormously expensive toy might be a step too far.

As for what would happen if there was another invasion, I suppose that is why we still keep a garrison of (p:mad: d-off ) troops down there as a deterrent...

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEagle,
I very much hope you are correct, please believe me. The thing is, the record is wearing out about how much (more) they keep needing. I'm afraid that disclosures about Dr Pleming give serious cause for concern amongst myself and, I suspect, a great many others. If he were in industry, then I would suggest that he might well have been sacked for so many oversights and errors etc.

I wish I still retained your confidence in the ultimate outcome, but sadly I don't anymore. I now see it as a Big White Elephant, that is just consuming vast amounts of money, with little (if any) progress being made. Surely, now is the time to call a halt, and put her back together to be dispayed as a static. The patient is on her last legs, and should be allowed to rest in peace.

Kind regards to all
TSM

[BEagle]

The 'patient' is being restored to airworthy condition. The only other Vulcan in anything close to the same condition is 655 at nearby Wellesbourne Mountford. This is worked on every Saturday; last weekend's engine runs and system checks showed that all is ready for a high speed taxy run the weekend after next. The only minor snags were the standby rudder PFCU contactor (being fixed) and a reluctance for the No 4 alternator to come on line (would need a gennie set up and balance - expensive in fuel and time even if a balancer box is available).

Hopefully the roll-out of 558 in August 2006 will be the catalyst for a major sponsor to come forward....

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEagle
I hope you are right, I'll keep my fingers crossed!
Kind regards
TSM

[Pontius Navigator]

Winco, please see PM

[Blacksheep]

...and never actually did very much apart from represent a capability that (fortunately) was never needed.Sorry, but I disagree entirely with that statement. The Bomber Command 'V' Force in which I served was part of the "Nuclear Deterrent" - MADness or Mutually Assured Destruction was the name of the game. A deadly game of bluff just like poker, but potentially catastrophic. That capability was needed, the concept was successful and Europe isn't a communist wasteland today, largely because the existence of those US and British deterrent forces obliged our politicians to talk and negotiate, instead of resorting to fighting as they usually did.

The old girl had more than earned her keep when she was pressed into service in the South Atlantic. The idea that the 'V' force sat idly doing nothing much for the preceding 25 years is a fallacy.

[airsound]

Winco and Swinging Monkey

We seem to have got into another ongoing banging heads against a wall situation. How can I persuade you that Rob Pleming’s niceness or otherwise has nothing, zilch, da nada to do with his suitability for this job? Yes, I’m a friend - and yes, surprise surprise, I think he’s a very nice bloke. But that is totally irrelevant to this discussion. That was why I didn’t mention anything about niceness. I only mentioned my friendship because I make little attempt to conceal my identity in PPRuNe, and I believe in being upfront about where I’m coming from. After all, it was you that brought up the subject of niceness, not me, and, despite its total irrelevance, we seem to have backed ourselves into a slanging match cul de sac. So, yes I think he’s nice, and no, it’s not important. Does that close the matter for you?

What is important is the VTTS project. Let me offer a little tour de l’horizon, in that wonderfully stuffy staff phrase. Forgive me if I’m telling you things you know. The funding for the restoration and operation of many historical aircraft in this country comes from a few rich individuals. Then there are the collections like Shuttleworth and Air Atlantique Classic Flight. And,of course, there are some syndicates, and a few plucky individuals. (Plus, of course, the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and B-17 Preservation.) I firmly believe we should be immensely grateful to all of them. But even the most well-funded individual or collection would baulk at the expense of getting a Vulcan flying - lots have thought about it, some have tried, but no one could get anywhere near the amounts of money involved. The only way was to do it professionally, as a business, with a serious business plan. The Heritage Lottery Fund had to be involved - and, as I said, until VTTS, they had refused to fund anything that moved. They also required a serious business plan as evidence of suitability - and that plan had to include all the big industry organisations like BAES, Marshalls and many others. So there was no way this was going to be done like many other restorations, with mostly volunteer work, on a largely ad-hoc basis. This project needed a seriously professional business at its core. Seriously professional businesses cost money to run, although you can mitigate the costs with lots of voluntary work and also sacrifices on the part of the workers who are being paid. There are also lots of incidental expenses, such as travelling to meetings with officials, representing the cause in person at all manner of venues, many of which happen at weekends, and other, sometimes.far flung, requirements for someone to travel.

And despite all of this huge effort - the project could still fail. That this could be due to some failings in the conduct of the business is also possible. But never forget that these people are the ones who stepped forward to take up this immense challenge, when others had fallen by the wayside. We are where we are - I believe that now is the time for one last great effort to make sure that 558 really does get airborne this year.

I’ll be away working at an air show this weekend. I’ll be suggesting, as I did two weeks ago, to the thousands in the audience that this time next year we might actually see that great aluminium overcast fly and feel our chests vibrate to the thunder of four Olympus. I believe it’s worth hanging in there.

airsound

[South Bound]

Blacksheep

agree that the policy was successful, no question. Just wonder if we would look so fondly on the aircraft of the BBMF if there had been no BoB... Wonderful flying machines, yes, extremely capable, yes, but what did the Vulcan actually do except exist? I know the Vulcan-experienced aircrew are spinning mad about comments like this, but I was offering a perspective on why people should not expect everyone else to hold the aircraft on some mystical pedestal and back that up with their cash. Your toy, you pay for it, I just think my money is better off sent to Sport Relief to help those kids in India....

[GeeRam]

Your toy, you pay for it, I just think my money is better off sent to Sport Relief to help those kids in India....

Oh please........hardly a good example to put up, a supposed charity event that has to pay £100,000 to get a drug crazed cheating Argie to appear when the idea is to give your services for free to raise money.....

Hmmm.....that's far less credible than the VTTS project:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

South Bound,

Your argument is sound, to a point. You may extend it to all other cold war hardware too. Lets go for austerity, bin everything to do with the past where we could spend our money on ourselves.

The mark of a developed country is the ability to pay for things that do not contribute to the economic prosperity of the country - English Nature, English Heritage, the Sports Council, the Arts Council, Muesums in general, air shows, regattas, Cowes, and so on and so on.

Let us go for a reduced carbon footprint, remove all these spurious attractions and the incentive for people to travel and create carbon emissions.

The whole raison d'etre of the V-Force was as a force in being and that applied to all the naval hardware too. What good did the Sea Vixen, Scimitar, Buccanneer etc do? The whol epoint of military hardware is not to use it. Once you start a war the costs escalate exponentially as the kit has then to be made to work - Shrike on Vulcans, AAR on Nimrod and C130 etc.

[Rigga]

IMHO,
If charities were a loss-maker, no-one would be doing it. There is loads of money to be made from charities and charitable scams. There are very few non-profit making charities as they are all out to make as much money as possible. (and I don’t disagree with that.)

I believe Professionals must be paid for their services in many technical fields – otherwise they may be later accused of Bias in the way they assess, approve or complete, work they do. I believe this is correct, morally and legally.

VTS does not appear to be a profit-making charity and, I am sure, many of its volunteers are genuine volunteers. I am also sure that some will take what they can out of the whole job. For many that will be the experience, and the joy, of working on something they like to work on. I did four years of work on just such a thing, and I took that experience to getting a new qualification, which has set me up for my chosen post-RAF career.

I don’t know what any VTS consultants do, but some should be paid for their costs and expertise. For many “consultants” involved in non-profit making charities, the pay they require is far less than their normal rates. Some, however, are not part of the Charity and are formally contracted to complete a task, or provide a service. Aircraft/Airworthiness Assessors and (bleedin') Accountants come to mind (there is a serious amount of money here). These must all be done at commercial rates and normally with full visibility of their account(s) and services.

Knowing the above, I too, would wonder what some VTS consultants are, and what they do, for their money.

[The Swinging Monkey]

airsound,
I will also be going to Cosford this weekend, and I'll be listening to your commentary with interest. I take it that you will NOT be announcing to the public tho' that a good portion of their donation(s) will be going to the good Dr??
kind regards to all
TSM

[Winco]

GeeRam,

Actually, I tend to agree with southbound on this point after watching the TV for the last 2 nights and the plight of the kids in India.
I'm not usually a sentimental type of chap, but I made a rough calculation of how much cash I've given to the project and then realised how much that would have done for the kids.
It just pi$$es me off more than you can imagine when I realise that I have been lining the pockets of certain people.
The Winco

[South Bound]

Yep, standard of cricket not great and completely overshadowed by the pics of the kids sleeping on the railway platforms. Nearly blubbed, having kids must have made me soft!

Back onto thread - I will pay to see it when it is up and running, I won't pay on the off-chance that it might work one day.

[BEagle]

Go and see the wealth in India. Then ask why there's such a disparity between the enormously wealthy and the very poor......

It's not like some god-forsaken part of Africa, it's an advanced industrial nation with some exceptionally talented people. But there's a huge gulf between rich and poor which India itself needs to face up to.

[kluge]

Here here BEagle - same with China. Enough mullah for nukes and launching people into space yet you read misguided idiot groups calling for funding to feed the poor. Should be calls for funding to overthrow the powers that be. These Govts are laughing all the way to the bank because they see the west as saps.

To not have a flying Vulcan is a loss to British history and more importantly a missed opportunity for the inspiration to the youth of today and tomorrow. It is a part of British culture for all the reasons above as is HMS Victory etc.

The challange is to make it work. Lessons can be learned from the EAA or Kermit Weeks in the US. Perhaps they could be the saviours even if it risks the loss of an airworthy Vulcan from UK shores. If it were to go as a flying exhibit I would welcome this rather than have the continued committe based type of bickering that is becoming more and more representative of British behaviour these days.

Sorry - rant off.

[South Bound]

Beags

unfortunately you are right, but India was only a topical example.

Turning your logic around, we are a fairly wealthy nation, yet we rely on charities such as the NSPCC and Children in Need to provide and protect our own deprived kids and our hospitals would cease to function (well sort of) without charitable donations. There is a fair old rich/poor gap here too.

Like I said before, I do hope someone finds the money, but not at the expense of more worthwhile causes. Good luck anyway.

[Roadster280]

Having spent the better part of my adult life defending the ideals of our society (democracy, capitalism (well at least, not Communism), individual success etc), I feel entitled to enjoy some of them.

I dont see the need to fund backwaters of humanity from the more successful nations. Did they help us in the dim and distant past, as we built our success? In some cases they did, by allowing us to build an empire on their lands (or failed to prevent us from so doing). In return, we gave them sanitation, a degree of law and order, economic systems, sustainable farming etc. Ultimately, we built separate nations that now flourish under the Commonwealth, as Independent states. If they didnt want, or couldn't cope with independence, then why ask for it? Take Rhodesia as an example, and look at it now.

Now if I choose to spend my money on restoring something that kept me safe in the years of my infancy, as did XH558, then it is my prerogative. A very worthy cause. In fact, XH558 displayed in 1992 at the disbandment of my (Army) squadron at Brize. I'd seen the Vulcan display before, but to overfly our parade was an honour. The great bird came to pay its respects to 244 Signal Squadron (Air Support). I can still see the cavernous bomb bay, feel the vibration from the Olympii, and hear the deafening sound of freedom. Made the Conways at Brize seem like kazoos.

So, bring on the return to flight of XH558. Back in the Royal Air Force, if necessary.

[South Bound]

Roadster

agreed, absolutely your choice. No need to get quite so frantic with the Indian example though, although I do kinda wonder if the legacy we left for them created that rich/poor divide discussed above!

Butting out now, let you all get back onto the main thread...

[Pontius Navigator]

Serious thread drift here but I did 4 weeks resettlement training in India.

I was told that only 2% pay income tax and they resent the way the government uses it.

There are many very charitable Indians but they do look after themselves first and there is a suspicion of money leakage on projects there. I estimated that there were 7 levels or society there with the charitable workers at about level 3 prosperity wise.

At the bottom I could not work out whether a pavement dweller was higher or lower than a slum dweller.

Some would sleep on a piece of sack with another over their head. Others in brick built constructions, TV etc, with electricity tapped off the street lights.

From time to time the city authorities would rehouse them in social housing and demolish the street house. Days later a pallet of bricks would arrive and the building would be rebuilt. The same occupants would return having sublet their social housing! Entreprenures every one.

And the money? £25 buys you an eye cataract operation. £25 buys you an articial limb. Compare that with European or UK prices.

Anyone want to buy an Indian an operation or an artificial limb can PM me and I will be able to get it done.

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

There is a new fundraising DVD coming out 1st July if you want to boost the coffers of the VTST. It's part one of the Restoration of XH558 series of DVD and will be available at Waddington Airshow! :ok: Can't wait to see it! :)

[A V 8]

The commentator at the Cosford Air Show on Sunday reckoned she could be airbourne later this year and could even display at next year's air show!

[Blacksheep]

At the bottom I could not work out whether a pavement dweller was higher or lower than a slum dweller.... ...Some would sleep on a piece of sack with another over their head.When I was based in Kathmandu our team befriended the street urchins who lived around Durbar Margh. We would bring back "kiddy bag" takeaways from our evening meal and buy them cigarettes. It was no use giving them money as their handlers took all the cash. I remember one urchin proudly showing me a new sack that he had acquired from somewhere. "No fleas, Sir!" he told me excitedly... :ugh:

Yes, there's lots of good causes out there. Unfortunately we can't back them all.

[andrewmcharlton]

Is it just me or have we just seen more spectacular spin from the team with their latest newsletter ?

Not long ago, figures like £350,000 were bandied about as being needed, then it was £600,000 and now, reading the newsletter its clear that the total at the moment is now £1million just to achieve first flight. No mention is made of the further costs for the flight test program or indeed general running costs.

Allowing for more spectacular miscalculations again I wonder what the true figure is ?

Doubtless so people will respond with the usual array of "its just another £20/£30/£50 a head" lark, but this seems to be rapidly turning into a bottomless pit. The major sponsor was supposed to bring in £500,000 and no one has come forward yet despite the best efforts of Felicity and others. In reality we probably need 2 major sponsors as well as an ongoing revenue stream which doesn't seem to exist.

The harsh reality, no matter how nice and hard working these people are, is that in any other business or walk of life heads would have rolled and the doors closed. I have donated around £500 this last year in monthly subscriptions and in purchases and I see no realistic prospect of first flight, does anyone else other than the blind optomists ?

I see the accounts are still not done and are late in filing, is that because the minute anyone studies them we will be asking harsh questions that will cause embarrassment or is it just poor management that they aren't done ? Either way its uninspiring.

I'd like to know how many paid staff / consultants there are working for the charity other than main contractors and what the #### are they doing to earn their corn ?

VTTS, come clean, give us the full unadulterated worst case scenario and stop wasting time and money if that is the case or else get some people in who will get results and start having the courage to stand aside and get in a team to make or break the project.

[airsound]

Here are some random thoughts on some of the stinging criticism that has been levelled at VTTS recently in this thread. I say, once again, that I am not part of VTTS (nor VOC) - but I do believe in what they’re trying to do.

The VTTS business plan was professionally drawn up and exhaustively vetted by the Heritage Lottery Fund, among others. However, as with all large projects, not everything went to plan.

Things that caused problems were:
1. After approval of the plan, there was an unforeseen delay of 20 months before work started on the aircraft - a delay not caused by VTTS or VOC. That was expensive.
2. The plan relied on getting sponsorship. So far, there has been a shortfall of roughly £0.5m in sponsorship.
3. The major engineering contractor has recently announced a significant, unforeseen increase in costs of more than 50%.

It is worth noting that costs other than those of the major engineering contractor are within the planned budget, and that fundraising other than sponsorship exceeds the business plan projections.

Finally, may I suggest to anyone who is taking selective notice of what they see as some gloomier implications of the Summer 2006 Newsletter ( www.vulcantothesky.com and click on newsletter ) -
you should also look at the front page messages of Marshall Aerospace and the Heritage Lottery Fund, both of which are optimistic and supportive.

A V 8, I did say at Cosford that XH558 could be airborne this year and could fly at next year’s Cosford show - and that is still possible. But it will only happen if those of us that care really make one huge effort to stop this amazing project falling at the last fence.

Standing by for incoming

airsound

PS. andrewmcharlton, The Swinging Monkey, Winco, please chk PMs.

[Blacksheep]

...an unforeseen delay... ...there has been a shortfall of roughly £0.5m in sponsorship... ...a significant, unforeseen increase in costs ... There seem to be plenty of people who did foresee these things and wondered what contingency plans were in place.

If she ever does get airborne, no doubt the now customary excess of optimism will encounter the unforeseen costs of operating the old girl. :rolleyes:

[Winco]

airsound,
I genuingly admire your loyalty to Dr Pleming et al and I have noted your comments in the PM.
There are however, a few things that you seem to have perhaps overlooked, or just not bothered to breif us on here...........

1. Why was there such a lengthy delay of 20 months, anf how was that expensive?
2. Surely the question of sponsorship was looked at by all of these experts? Are you asking us to believe that nobody 'sounded out' some of the big sponsors before hane, and at least got a verbal OK? If not, then it must be asked, why not? And lets face it, half a million, whilst a hell of a lot of money to you and, ios absolute peanuts to a big company.
3. As for the 'major' engineering contractor putting up their prices by 50%. Are you serious? Did they not get written quotes before hand? Did they not go on a fixed (or at least limited) price agreement? Again, if not, then why not?

I hate to say it, but you really must question the role of those at the top here. These are the 'experts' as you refer to them. This is Dr Pleming who you rate so highly in earlier posts.

Airsound, your loyalty is commendable, but its time to admit that these are serious ommissions, oversights, unforssen expenses, call them what you want, and they should have been factored in or at least planned for by your so-called experts.

The Winco

[The Swinging Monkey]

airsound,
The folks at Brunters might not have forseen these problems, but I would suggest to you that the majority of us out here in the real world DID!
And why, if Marshalls and the Lottery people are optomistic, are the VTTS and VOC so pesamistic? It could be misinterpreted that it is yet another ploy for some more donations maybe?? More 'doom and gloom' from them? We've seen it before, guess we're seeing it again?
Ref your PM to me, thanks, but I think it would be better if you put it on this open forum to let everyone know its contents. It may just calm a few people down, but there again it may get the backs up of a few.
I will be at Waddo next weekend, and will endevour to ask the good Dr why he has NOT replied to any of my letters or e mails. Maybe all of those others would like to do likewise, I am sure they will have a big stand in one of the hangars!

Kind regards
TSM

[andrewmcharlton]

Thanks for the PM but all this should be out in the open not private and personal "justification of what people have been doing" chats.

I have been barracking on the the tvoc site for answers and of course there aren't any other than the eternal optomists who keep saying "just another £30 each" or "shut up and do be so negative".

Interestingly, Felicity took the time to answer postings on this message board in their FAQ's but none of the postings on their own web site.

Does anyone know how many people other than contractors actually draw a salary or some payment as consultants ?

[Winco]

airsound,

I hate to say it boy, but andrew is yet another in the long line of folks who have asked the question(s) and not got a reply. Maybe you could suggest that its high time your 'friend' started replying to those who take the time to write to him??
Andrew, I guess the names and ££££££ are available somewhere... the question is? yep where?
If you find them, maybe you could pm me them or better still, put them on here for all to see.
The Winco

[NutLoose]

Fit an exec suite in place of the rear crew seats and use it as Blairforce one
be very impressive for him to arrive at a meeting in :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Better still fit his seat to the main undercarriage door and don't give him any seat belt... would the lottery not possibly up the anti? after all it will be major egg on their faces if spending xyz on it she never flies..... There was a nice article about this many moons ago, this is the first ever flyer they have shelled out for as active aviation was deemed to be not a worthwhile cause........... they had managed to fund God knows how many trains though

[Roadster280]

they had managed to fund God knows how many trains though

The risk of a train falling out of the sky is vanishingly small. Maybe that's why aircraft are less likely to be supported. Let's be honest, if the Concorde at LHR was put up for Lottery funds, who would object? Not me, nor anyone on here, nor, I suspect several tens of millions of others. The odd train that needs a boiler is a different kettle of fish. Costs pennies in comparison, and never goes wrong. Delta wing back in the sky? Big risks.

[*Zwitter*]

The risk of a train falling out of the sky is vanishingly small.


you could say the same thing for aircraft - they don't, generally, 'fall out of the sky', it's only the sheer volume of air traffic that means that you get an accident now and then.

Flying is safe, remember?

[Hirsutesme]

[quote=NutLoose]Better still fit his seat to the main undercarriage door and don't give him any seat belt...


I and 20 odd other ATC guys once had a flight in a Vulcan bomb bay, what an experience!

I saw the last Vulcan flight and would so dearly love to see a Vulcan flying again.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Hirsutesme
Are you for real? Pray tell us more!
When and with with who did you go for a trip in a Vulcan Bomb Bay?
Its a joke right?
TSM

[Toddington Ted]

:mad: Don't start me on the subject of "trains" as you call them, getting funding for their boilers, our locomotive didn't and its the oldest privately preserved GWR steam locomotive in the UK and we are only talking £70K, and..etc etc.

Yours

"The Fat Contoller"

btw, I'd love to see a Vulcan fly again but that is a really expensive hobby!

[GeeRam]

Hirsutesme
Are you for real? Pray tell us more!
When and with with who did you go for a trip in a Vulcan Bomb Bay?
Its a joke right?
TSM

Fantastic.......I can just picture 20 space cadets being bound with gaffer tape and put on bomb trollies and winched into the bay of a Vulcan in place of 20 x 1000 pounders........:D :D

[allan907]

...and wrapped in that rubberised horse hair and hairy blankets to keep out the cold....

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a VIP fit for the Vulcan.

A bed was installed in the prone position for Mountbatten to fly across the pond to Goose for a bit of fly fishing, until someone told the Sun.

His lordship was 100% pissed off and the staish was lucky to get his star.

[FJJP]

hirsutesme

When did your flight take place? I might have been there...

[Archimedes]

Oh dear....
This is not an easy letter to write, but I have to inform you, on behalf of the Club Committee, that the project to restore our beloved aircraft, Avro Vulcan XH558, to flying condition, is perilously close to having to be abandoned. This is purely because of lack of finance; nothing else.
Letter can be found in full here at the mo' (http://www.vulcan558club.com/)

[GeeRam]

Yup, I've seen rumours posted elsewhere that some Eng. staff have already been given notice of redundancy.

[Blacksheep]

Avro Vulcans flew for as long as was practical and continued for much longer than was ever intended when they first entered service. XH558 was finally grounded for economic rather than airworthiness reasons. The "Vulcan to the Sky" project could at best only squeeze a few more flying hours out of the old girl. This ill-conceived project has since consumed large amounts of money and many resources that might better have been spent on other worthy restoration and museum projects. I for one would not be sad to see the end of it. I would however, hope that XH558 may be properly preserved as a grounded museum exhibit, rather than be left to rot in the open like so many other valuable pieces of our aviation heritage.
(Like me for example... :) )

[XL319]

You would think some company would supply the paint for free, tight a***s. I love the Vulcan and think people would come in their hundreds to see it, however the costs could be the difficult part of keeping it running. The fuel itself must be emnormous cost. I am surprised that it has cost gone so over budget considering it was in taxi condition.

[andrewmcharlton]

This just seems par for the course.

I like others have been posting on the tvoc forum for disclosure and some proper idea of what is going on instead of the usual head up the arse replies.

I got my last postings deleted for my trouble, perhaps I hit a nerve with others.....

Apparently, according to a tvoc poster who went along, FI has disappeared off to France !

Does anyone know how many paid admin staff / consultants (other than engineers) they had and what kind of lolly they were on ?

[A2QFI]

BBC East Midlands Teletext says (I paraphrase slightly)
1. The project is close to collapse
2. 30 engineers have worked on it for 9 years
3. £4 Million has been spent so far
4. £250,000 is needed within a month to save the project
Sad but inevitable I'd say

[The Swinging Monkey]

I wish I could say I am surprised, but I'm Not!
This has been an unmitigated farce from the start, and my only hope now is that someone is brought to task over the huge amount of money that the people of this country have donated to the project, and has now been wasted.
I only hope that those in industry that have unertaken the work, will get paid.

Airsound - I'm waiting for your responce and defence of 'certain nice people'

Kind regards to all
TSM

[Champagne Anyone?]

The major question any investor must surely ask themselves is that out of the £250.000 requested prior to the end of aug, where will this money go and will it be filling the pockets of the parasites who have been asking for exorbitant salaries and consultation fees?
I would like a breakdown of to whom and where did all the funds (including my donations) go to!
Who chose the consultants? And was this only a money making project for the few with no intention to getting the old girl in the air!
I do get a feeling that this has been the biggest of shambles from the very outset. There have been to many dinner parties, funded no doubt from the funds, where the few pat themselves on the backs and tell each other how well they are doing instead of putting their all into the project and saving funds for the intended purpose, GETTING 558 INTO THE AIR!
Lets have a publicly available accounts breakdown posted for all to see... This might give any future investors the security they need to donate the large sums required!!
Yours a very angry Champers!

[andrewmcharlton]

I would love to know how much the illustrious FI and the good doctor have been paid to date, anyone got any ideas ?

Is FI a full time employee ?

[Tim McLelland]

I quite agree that the whole project seems to have been handled ineptly, and from the confidential information I've seen, the only beneficiary seems to have been Dr Pleming! Despite our efforts, we've not seen any evidence to suggest any other conclusion, have we?

I wonder if David Walton still has any influence over the project? Give the project to a company like Delta Jets or Air Atlantique. For heaven's sake, it's a largely completed project, and for the sake of another million pounds (a drop in the ocean for the HLF people) it could succeed. But you wouldn't blame the HLF people from being rather cynical, based on the performance so far. It needs a bunch of professionals in control, but I fear they've been p*ssing about for too long and the chance is now gone. I guess the only hope is that if the project is wrapped-up at the end of this month, it can be handed to a professional concern who might still have time to get a bit for cash out of the HLF and complete the task.

What am I saying? Some hopes - the TVOC people will pocket their expenses and 558 will spend the rest of its existence rusting at Bruntingthorpe. What a joke.

[andrewmcharlton]

From companies house...

Name & Registered Office:
THE VULCAN OPERATING COMPANY LIMITED
LACEYS SOLICITORS
5 POOLE ROAD
BOURNEMOUTH
DORSET BH2 5QL
Company No. 03787161

Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 10/06/1999

Country of Origin: United Kingdom

Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
9999 - Dormant Company

Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2004 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due: 30/04/2006 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To: 10/06/2005
Next Return Due: 08/07/2006 OVERDUE


Surely some mistake ??? Dormant ???

[Winco]

I am so angry I am almost lost for wards.

All this utter nonesence we have been fed for months by this bunch of self-opinionated incompetants. No wonder no one got a reply to any of the difficult questions that were put to Dr P, now we know why don't we?

I am outraged - and I very much hope that there will be some form of public investigation into just where every last penny that we have all donated has gone to, and who has 'made' out of this farce.

It will be interesting to see where 558 now ends up. Unless she is going to stay at Brunters, then I fear she will be cut up and ultimately scrapped. (Although I expect someone will 'make' out of that also!)
After all, there are few places left in the UK that would want her frankly (especially with the bad puiblicity that surrounds her) and most half decent museums have already got one!

I guess most of us were wrong when we commented on FI's comments? She was always giving us the 'last chance' routine, and it looks like she may have been right, despite the comments from Brunters to the contrary) Unfortunately they have cried 'wolf' once too often, and now the wolf has arrived.
RIP 558, you were let down by people who were lacking........NOT the British public.

The Winco

[andrewmcharlton]

Get yourself a look at this :

http://www.vulcan558club.com/AGM_Minutes_Extract_Dr_Pleming_Talk_Questions.doc

The amount of rent they are paying is hard to believe and I would love to see a breakdown of those running costs.

[FAAjon]

Shame. Still hopeful though...

[A2QFI]

BBC East Region news has just said that the engineers are being laid off at the end of this month, or it might have been September. £250K needed by the end of this month and a new sponsor. No money and the project is dead, or so it is claimed. I think that is probably about right!

[Tim McLelland]

That report (which he's evidently making next year, according to the date) doesn't exactly fill you with confidence, does it? Clear as mud...

You'd think that by this stage we would have progressed beyond the "dig in your pockets chaps" line yet again. If the money isn't in place, or not even on the horizon, then no amount of fund-raising is going to achieve anything.

Call me cynical, but I just do not accept that in all these years, it has been impossible to find a proper sponsor/s for the project. As I said weeks ago, why the hell wasn't a PR company brought-in to get sponsors? The only answer we got was that they'd had a "bad experience" with the one they'd already tried. What kind of an answer was that?

It looks like the saga is nearly over, so maybe it's time we looked at what happens now. Who gets the Vulcan? Why doesn't it go back to David Walton? Why can't Air Atlantique or some other competent company step-in and finish the project? What does the HLF think about all this? Surely, all the poor people that have coughed-up their donations should now decide where we go from here? Or do Dr Pleming and his team simply pocket their expenses and drift off into the proverbial sunset?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

If I may drift slightly North West of thread for a moment.

XM603 was always in a better state than 558 and more original; ie never been tankerised. As I remember it, she only needed a main spar mod. BAe could never find hangar space for it, though, and the work never happened. The original manufacturer now seems to have acres of space but the aeroplane still corrodes away on her North Side hardstanding.
Whenever BAe get dignitaries or important customers at Woodford, they all seem to want to look at the big white Vulcan. What brilliant publicity for peanuts outlay (a few quid a week for the old lads in the 603 Club and a the 100W light bulb "dehumidifier")!

For any of these projects, there has got to be an unshakable will to complete and maintain it and, probably, an avoidance of work done at market rates.

[country calls]

As a current Hercules operator I have a word association exercise often used at a secret Wilts Airbase:

Brewery

P!ss up

Organise

Cambridge

Overbudget

Late

Delivery

Simply group all the words and find a common link!

[Tim McLelland]

Okay, who is gonna tell him? ... :D

[PICKS135]

Reading the AGM file can someone tell me what the £500,000 cost overrun was. Tim's mate;) Dr Pleming said he couldnt say.

[A2QFI]

SFAIK it was something to do with contracted or planned work being done late and at an unforseen increased cost. Can't be more specific at the moment. It may been in one of the previous 160+ entries on this thread!

[PICKS135]

Thanks for that.
Another question What were the staff in Dorset doing ?

[Champagne Anyone?]

Would this be an appropriate time to suggest a call to the Serious Fraud Office??

Well, I as a donator would like to know where my money went... I donated to get the old bird back into the air, not to fund the staff's away days and dinners! (or what ever other 'aditionals' there were!)

[andrewmcharlton]

I would be happy to join anyone else in making a report. I've thrown £500 odd in the pot and it seems they dont even have one to p*ss in anymore.

[whitworth]

From companies house...

Name & Registered Office:
THE VULCAN OPERATING COMPANY LIMITED
LACEYS SOLICITORS
5 POOLE ROAD
BOURNEMOUTH
DORSET BH2 5QL
Company No. 03787161

Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 10/06/1999

Country of Origin: United Kingdom

Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
9999 - Dormant Company

Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2004 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due: 30/04/2006 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To: 10/06/2005
Next Return Due: 08/07/2006 OVERDUE


Surely some mistake ??? Dormant ???



You put the same misleading information on the VOC website and were shot down in flames, twice , by somebody who found the correct information !! Maybe you haven't had time to put the correct info on here yet...!

Your constant s*#t stirring is becoming tedious

[whitworth]

As a current Hercules operator I have a word association exercise often used at a secret Wilts Airbase:

Brewery

P!ss up

Organise

Cambridge

Overbudget

Late

Delivery

Simply group all the words and find a common link!

I'm surprised that, as a current hercules operator, you know how to play word association games!

[andrewmcharlton]

Interesting concept that you think asking Directors of a charitable trust to account for their spending of donations plus tax payers gift aid and failing to provide their statutory accounts on time is stirring.

Perhaps if you were donating your hard earned you might feel somewhat agrieved.

[andrewmcharlton]

by the way, when you say shot down in flames I assume you mean that a simple error was corrected ?

[forget]

Whitworth, What is this 'correct' information? The Companies House web shows the above to be current.

[andrewmcharlton]

Whitworth is upset because they switched from this ltd co to a charitable trust, my mistake, although the web site still refers to TVOC throughout. I am happy to clarify. None the less, the accounts are still late and they are bound by even more directors and trustees obligations being a charity.

Apologies for confusion.

[whitworth]

Nothing dormant about this one!

VULCAN TO THE SKY TRUST
LACEYS SOLICITORS
5 POOLE ROAD
BOURNEMOUTH
DORSET BH2 5QL
Company No. 04478686




Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 05/07/2002

Country of Origin: United Kingdom

Company Type: PRI/LBG/NSC/S.30 (Private, limited by guarantee, no share capital, section 30 of the Companies Act)
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
9305 - Other service activities

Accounting Reference Date: 31/07
Last Accounts Made Up To: 31/07/2004 (GROUP)
Next Accounts Due: 31/05/2006 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To: 05/07/2005
Next Return Due: 02/08/2006

slightly more than a 'simple error' methinks

[andrewmcharlton]

whitworth that's out of order, it was a simple error based on the fact that the website, the url and the text in their letters / PR refers to TVOC. You clearly feel smug in highlighting my error once it had already been pointed out to you, very well done, take a brownie point.

Do you donate ? Do you believe that the directors have acted in the best interests of the charity and the company at all times even where this is to the detriment to their own personal position ? Thats their legal obligation. Doubtless we will get a full and frank explanation of what is going on, oh hang on we can't can we, others have suggested that FI is in France running the project remotely and the good doctor is off sick accorind to others, meanwhile the hard working lads and lasses get their notice.

[Tim McLelland]

I emailed Dr Pleming yesterday to ask what is going-on.
So far no reply.

I emailed FlyPast (Ken Delve) yesterday to ask if they (as the leading preservation forum) could step-in and find-out what's goin on.
So far no reply.

Not very encouraging, is it?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
You won't get a reply from the good Dr P although you will probably fair better from Ken D.

I have written to Dr P on many occasions and I know many others who have done likewise. It would appear that replying to letters is beneath him.

The thing I will never understand about the whole of this project is the lack of forsight on the parts of those in charge. Anyone who has operated any type of flying machine knows only too well that there ARE hidden costs. Even with the best will in the world, there will be something that is forgotten. My problem is, that here was a man, with NO? avaiation background, certainly no military avaition background, who took on something, that he clearly didn't know enough about. Was there any military 'experts' involved? I don't mean flyers, I mean ex Sengo's and the like?

I think (and hope) that someone, somewhere will instigate some kind of formal investigation into the whole fiasco.
Kind regards to all
TSM

[smarthawke]

Ken Delve left FlyPast (Key Publishing) a couple of years back and was last heard of in Dubai so you might not get a reply anytime soon!

Perhaps contacting Ken Ellis at FlyPast might help?

[Tim McLelland]

Well the ball's proverbially in Pleming's court. If he doesn't reply in a couple of days, I'll write again and point-out that I will write-up his lack of response when I complete my new Vulcan book. If he wants to be on record as being unwilling to even answer an email, that's entirely his choice I guess! But I'll wait and see - I don't want to be unfair about this, and if he can explain the saga then all well and good. If he can't, then obviously I can only report the situation as I see it.

As for FlyPast, I doubt if they'll bother to reply. There's no material gain in it for Key Publishing...

[Tim McLelland]

Okay, okay, some concrete news at last! I have received a very full and comprehensive reply from Dr Pleming, and in fairness to him, I should say that he appears to be happy to discuss the project and that the situation might not be as bad as it has sounded. I will endeavour to go into the various details with him and if I find-out more I will post-up some news when I have it, but suffice to say that the project isn't off the rails just yet!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
I am eagerly waiting to hear what the good Dr had to say, especially the bit about "the situation might not be as bad as it has sounded"
What on earth does that mean then?
Don't keep us hanging on too long please Tim.
Kind regards
TSM

[polyglory]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/04/nvulcan14.xml
I have just read this in this mornings Telegraph, a bit late in the day, but hope something comes of it.

[Blacksheep]

...the most stunning military event of the twentieth century...Bombing the Falklands?
Operation Overlord didn't amount to much then... Nor Hiroshima... :ugh:

I take it they no longer teach history at school.

[floppyarms]

In brief, Vin de Terre Ltd (Spalding) has joined the challange to help raise the required funds and in an attempt to do our bit we have launched a special Wine just for the Vulcan.

100% of the profits will be going to the project!

We thought this would be a great chance to raise some money for the project whist offering the 'customer' a rewarding and commemorate bottle of wine.

We know this is just one of the many ways to raise money and the road ahead is indeed challanging. But our strong ties to the RAF and our determination to do all we can is hopefully going to help raise some much needed funds.

In anycase you can find our more here (http://www.savethevulcan.co.uk/) and maybe pass this link around to other supporters, or wine lovers.

We all sincerely hope this is not the end of the road and we certainly shall be working desperatly to raise every penny we can.

See us tonight/tomorrow on Calendar news and this weekend on Lincs FM!

I hope everyone can keep their heads up and lets all pull in the same direction!

All the best

Tom

www.SAVETHEVULCAN.co.uk (http://www.savethevulcan.co.uk/)

[The Swinging Monkey]

floppy arms,

a great idea, but I'm not sure I can drink enough wine to get the £1,000,000 (or whatever the amount is today) needed by the end of the month!!
Might have fun trying tho'
Kind regards
TSM

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
If you have a "very full and comprehensive reply from Dr Pleming" Please tell us all what it said
Thanks
TSM

[Tim McLelland]

I'm afraid I can't post-up details of private correspondence but I will of course let you know any important points - I'm awaiting a further reply from Dr. Pleming at present, as I'm trying to get the details as clear as possible. Like everyone, I'm tired of trying to see through the proverbial smoke and haze!

[Winco]

Thats a bit off side Tim isn't it?
You let us all know that you have a letter from Pleming, with concrete news and saying that things aren't as bad as they appear, and then tell us you cannot disclose anything!
Why not? is it Top Secret? Commercial in Confidence? What?
Come on, things are reportedly pretty bleak, I should of thought that now is the time to bring things out in the open in a last-gask effort to recover the situation.
The Winco

[Tim McLelland]

It just so happens that I've received more information a few minutes ago. I can't post-up personal correspondence as that would be most unfair (and of course, it's not going to encourage TVOC to tell us much, is it?!). Anyway, this is how the situation seems to be:-

Yes, they do need another 250k to keep going and Dr Pleming thinks they might well be able to get this much cash by the end of the month. They have indeed issued redundancy notices because they're obliged to - the project has to be wound-up at the end of the month if the money isn't found, otherwise the Trust has to go into insolvency.

If the 250k figure isn't reached, then the aircraft's future has to be reviewed. There appears to be some possibility of putting the whole project "on hold" but of course even keeping the aircraft in suspended animation would cost yet more money, and make the ultimate goal drift further away.

The key to the project would seem to be the HLF people. Having already put so much cash into the project, it seems crazy that they can't add just a little bit more to see it through - if they don't, then all of their cash is wasted. Pleming says that the HLF will not supply any more cash without a policy decision from the top. Personally, I think this is where TVOC and others ought to be putting pressure on HLF. It is, after all, our money that they are going to be wasting if they don't cough-up another 250k (or less).

David Walton is charging TVOC hangar/storage rent and will continue to do so. I find this quite astonishing, but Pleming points-out that the rest of the hanger is a money-making asset (B&Q etc), but you'd think that of all people, Walton would have helped by waiving such charges... it seems not, and this is where a substantial amount of cash has gone. A staggering 275k so far and another 15k a month from here onwards. Absolutely mind-numbing, isn't it?

Richard Branson has been approached repeatedly but he's evidently not interested. Marshall's are doing the work but they're doing nothing for free - quite the opposite in fact and they're treating the project as a purely commercial venture. Likewise, Rolls Royce are doing nothing and are in fact one of the most expensive parts of the project. British Aerospace is helping by taking-on liability for free, but the boss doesn't want to offer any more financial support than that (even though it sounds like other BAe people do). So these Great British institutions aren't helping at all - in fact they're all busy making a fast buck! Shabby in the extreme...


Pleming also accepts that marketing and promotion has not been as good as it could have been, but like everyone else, he thinks it would be awful if we're left with "a useless hulk" at the end of this month after so much cash has been thrown at the project.


So there we are... not dead and buried just yet, but with three weeks to find about 200k, it's hanging in the balance. You'd think that somebody, somewhere, could find this cash. I really don't know what we can do at this late stage. To add to the problems, Pleming is ill and is going into hospital next week! Out of all this, I find it surprising and vaguely disgusting that key players like Marshalls (who are only too happy to crow about their achievements when it suits them) are doing nothing to support the project other than taking a very hefty fee. Likewise, Rolls Royce of all people, are busy making cash out of the project - shameful. I'm also amazed that when Walton bought the aircraft in the first place, he sees fit to take huge amounts of money just to keep the aircraft on his property. What kind of benefactor is that?!

But worst of all, it seems quite bizarre that after giving 2.7 million, the HLF can't hand-out another 250k to keep the project alive, and thereby avoid wasting their original investment. Absolute madness, and I would have thought that this is the key subject that someone ought to be highlighting in the media. It needs someone with some clout to get the project into the national media, instead of skulking around in local newspapers and regional programmes. Somebody ought to be shouting about how our Great British Companies are just out to make a fast buck out of an important heritage project, and that our beloved HLF seems happy to throw-away millions, all for the sake of spending another small amount. Complete madness!

So, I can only suggest that we try and spread the word. Find those RAF people with history, experience and a respect for the V-Force and see if they can tap the right shoulders to give this project some really high profile publicity while it's still viable. If the aircraft can be restored to flying condition (something which now seems likely early next year if cash is found) then it could be removed from Bruntingthorpe and hopefully relocated to a site where money doesn't have to be shelled-out simply to stand still (Scampton? Honington? Wyton? Marham? Surely the MoD could help-out here without jumping on the money-making bandwagon?).

All ideas gratefully received...!

[Tim McLelland]

Although we have a thread on this subject elsewhere, I thought it important that I highlight this matter more clearly because of the impending threat of disaster!

The TVOC project has been going well, and the aircraft is still due to be rolled-out (albeit with components missing) at the end of this month. It is scheduled to fly again early next year and yet... unless another 200-250k is found within the next three weeks, the project will have to be terminated, and although the Trust could continue, the odds on ever starting-up the project again are virtually zero.

Having got this far, it seems ludicrous that the project might now have to be chopped. There's much that can be done, and most importantly, somebody ought to be putting pressure on the Lottery people to cough-up this cash, otherwise their hefty investment (2.7 million) is going to go straight down the proverbial pan.

Publicity and lots of it - that's what is needed at this critical stage so that the project can proceed to the flight stage, and then (finally!) some sponsors can finally see what they would be getting for their money. But the project needs some people with clout who can make the right people sit-up and take notice. Surely, there must be people out there in the RAF/MoD who can bring this matter to the attention of the right people? What a waste if all this effort and money amounts to nothing.

[Radar Muppet]

Whilst I admire the determination shown by those who wish to see the Vulcan fly again, I think it is a white elephant and that £2.7M and an extra £250K could be much, much better spent on more worthy causes. And I don't mean on lottery focus groups for gay Sheffield hacks!

Joke

RM

[BEagle]

I understand that there will be a piece on Yorkshire TV's 'Calendar' programme this evening (10891H SR22.0 FEC 5/6 for those with Sky Digital in other regions)...

Please make your support for the Vulcan to the Sky project known by e-mailing [email protected]

Idiots like Radar Muppet - please $od off!

Edited to add: YTV piece now due to be shown sometime next week!

[South Bound]

Beags

get over yourself, my dear man. RM is entitled to his view, it does not make him an idiot.

[BEagle]

Tim, you will recall that Marshall Aerospace was recently awarded a £1.52 BILLION contract for the Hercules Integrated Operational Support programme? Well, Lord 'Larry' Drayson, MinDP reckons that this will save the British taxpayer some £171 MILLION over 24 years.

Now, Marshall Aerospace themselves will probably receive about 33% of the HIOS dosh - so surely they could find it in themselves to part with the minute amount, in those terms, which would be needed to keep the 558 programme?

Vulcan Murdered by Greed - that wouldn't make pretty PR....

[EastMids]

unless another 200-250k is found within the next three weeks, the project will have to be terminated

£200-250k to do what? Buy time? Get it to first flight? Get it through the flight testing? Get it ready for the show circuit? There were other figures of £1.2M required being bandied about - what's that for, and why the difference between £200-250K and £1.2M (quote from 558club website - "That sum, though, is small compared with the £1,200,000 still needed to complete the aircraft’s restoration, its ground tests, and its air tests, so that it could be handed back to the Trust sometime in the spring of 2007."). If the £200-250k will only to get it to first flight, then all that's going to happen is that there will be another cash call in a few months time, with more tales of woe and herculean efforts coming to nothing emerging along with threats that the project will be wound up unless people donate again.

When oh when will someone come out and unequivacably tell the truth about how much money is needed to see the project through to fruition - to get it onto the show circuit? And if that needs some contingency to cover further overruns, OK, so admit it and plan for it. That way, at least potential donors big or small know where they really stand. Really, until such meaningful information is forthcoming, throwing further money at the project would seem to be throwing good money after bad.

In any case, the project shouldn't be in this state now. Any good project management should have covered the issues the project now faces pretty much before it was launched. If the initial planing work had been done properly, if costing had been realistic, if contingency had been put in place to cover overruns, the project would either (a) have never been started or (b) would have secured the funding to run to conclusion already in place. Don't blame the HLF, or Waltons, or BAe, or Marshalls - for the most part they're commercial organisations that have shareholders to satisfy in preference to sentimentality. To ask the HLF for more now merely suggests that there was some incompetence in preparing the original funding request - or was the most optimistic budget put up because it was felt that would be easier to secure and that overruns could be sorted out later?

My feeling is that no commercial donor is coming forward because the project is such a mess, still with unclear targets and budgets. If a Vulcan-minded person or organisation did exist, then realistically I think that they only way they'd engage would be if the project was temporarily stopped, the entire management team on the project was fired, and a realistic reassessment of the full and true future requirements of the project was put in place before any further work was undertaken.

[Mike51]

According to the statement on the VOC website, £1m, not 250k, is required bt the end of the month in order to continue the project.

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php

The XH558 Club also quotes Dr Pleming as saying that the running costs will be £1.2m per year.

http://www.vulcan558club.com/AGM_Minutes_Extract_Dr_Pleming_Talk_Questions.doc

So for the quoted 15-year timespan of the project, with inflation, well over £20m will be required.
If these figures are correct, then £1.2m to get it to its first airshow next season, then another £1.2m for a season's operating costs means that £2.4m of this (plus funding for the next set of 'unforseen overuns') will be needed by September next year!!!!!

[forget]

Am I alone in being constantly baffled by this whole saga? XM558 flew into Bruntingthorpe so it was already in half way reasonable nick, and has been hangared since then. It is not a complicated aircraft. It may have been when it was on QRA - but not now. It’s a four jet with basic hydraulics for gear, brakes, speed brakes, nose wheel steering - and PFCU’s for flight control surfaces. The electrics are 50’s technology but now that the NBS and ECM have gone the aircraft has a huge excess of amps available - generators are not a critical item - lose one and you wouldn’t notice.

And I hear that several zero time inhibited engines are on hand, and on the books. There may have been areas of corrosion that needed attention - but why these vast sums of money to get the wheels off the deck again. Apart from a conventional service of hydraulic components and PFCU’s about the biggest non-routine job I would have expected would be some re-wiring in critical areas. And what’s it cost to re-certify two bang seats?

I’m left with a feeling of the ‘man in the street’, the punter, being taken for a ride here. I’d be pleased to be convinced otherwise, but it’ll be difficult. Anyone got any real numbers on costs. I did see a listing somewhere that mentioned several thousand to service a ‘beam compass’ - which, I suspect, supports my point.

The word ‘restoration’ keeps popping up. It ain’t a ‘restoration’, or at least it shouldn’t be - as I said, it flew in………….

[BEagle]

No, a complete major has been carried out. Certain structural work has been carrried out to extend the aircraft life to the planned final flight date; the engineering team have kept close to the anticipated schedule and that side of the project has gone well.

I950s-60s electrics and hydraulics are far from being as benign as your post implies! 4000 psi hydraulics, large moving components such as landing gear - all to be restored in an expensive 21st century 'Health and Safety' environment...... There will be more setting up work to do when the engines are run - trying to get 4 AC generators to paralel properly is often tricky in a VC10, in a Vulcan the alternator trimming has to be done externally and can be more of an art than a science!

Most of the antique avionics are being replaced by more reliable, modern systems. But all such work has to be thorough and to normal standards, if the CAA is to let the aircraft fly.

I very much doubt whether the 'man in the street' is being taken for a ride. Certain costs, to me, seem surprising - such as the rent of the restoration hangar - but, overall, this is a hard working team trying to realise their dream that others may yet see the majesty of the Vulcan in flight.

[L Peacock]

Looking in from the periphery, the commercial nature of the restoration has got to be its Achilles heal. Marshall's have to make their margin and that must be a huge drain on voluntary contributions. Though I understand the CAA must be satisfied the work has been carried out professionally, there has got to be some scope to use volunteer expertise. I stand ready to be corrected.

[Dak Mechanic]

I'm aghast at this whole saga!

Pity that the Vulcan publicity machine has been so lacklustre - I'm sure that more could have been done...

:(

DM

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

Pleming says that the HLF will not supply any more cash without a policy decision from the top. Personally, I think this is where TVOC and others ought to be putting pressure on HLF. It is, after all, our money that they are going to be wasting if they don't cough-up another 250k (or less).


Interesting that this item is being pushed on the VulcanToTheSky forum at the moment:


For those who are interested in helping the project, what about trying to contact the HLF and register our public interest in seeing this project completed? It's all very well and good the Trust looking for cash to complete the project. If the public are asking for the same results surely their chances are that much greater? as the Lottery Fund are doing this for us aren't they? They don't want to be seeing in-fighting and moaning amongst the supposed fans of this aircraft.

I have found their website here:
www.hlf.org.uk

And I think the regional offices for the Vulcan project would be:
http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/InYourArea/EastMidlands/

Chiltern House
St Nicholas Court
25-27 Castle Gate
Nottingham, NG1 7AR
Tel: 0115 9349050

Can all those interested in aiding the project give them a ring or email, and register support of this project and their concern?

If the engineers are looking to publicise the problems surely it's because they are worried they will have found new jobs and not be able to complete this project if the cash comes through at too late an hour. What action needs to be taken, wants to be taken now.

If any on here can help, then let's do our bit. I will.

This is on the Key Publishing forum at present. Not a bad idea...... What does everyone think? Support of the Project is needed at moment.

It's got to be worth a try. [email protected]

Worth a letter/email by all who can - and pass on the message to your email contacts.

SSBS

[Pontius Navigator]

LP, in that the RAF was asking for LAC/SAC to build wiring looms and not need to be qualified I guess that is your answer.

Different tack, did they get the volunteers?

[Tim McLelland]

I fear we might go round in proverbial circles here, but I've tried to be as concise as possible. Approximately 250k is needed to keep the restoration project going. If it isn't found, the project ends at the end of this month. Theoretically, it could be re-started at a later date but I think we all know that once it stops, it's never going to re-start.

If this money is found, the aircraft will probably fly early next year. Naturally, more money is then needed to keep the aircraft flying, but the project rests on the support of sponsors. Pleming accepts that PR and promotions have been their downfall, but they still believe (probably quite rightly) that once the aircraft flies, sponsors will come forward.

Okay it's a gamble, but it's preferable to seeing the whole project collapse after so much work and so much money. That would just be a complete waste, and frankly I think it would be a disgrace if the HLF people allowed their money to be thrown-away by refusing to stump-up just a little bit more. But somebody will have to convince them of their stupidity...

[Tim McLelland]

I quite agree that Marshalls are being astonishingly mean about this project. I'm even more astonished at Rolls Royce. As for BAe, I think we've all accepted for a long time that they ought to give the project some support and by accepting liability I guess they have, so at least they've done something. Marshalls and RR should hang their heads in shame.

But what about David Walton? Why did he buy the Vulcan if he now sees fit to charge huge amounts of money to the people who are trying to succeed where he failed? Without his fees they would already have anough money to proceed...

You have to admire the way that people claim to be supporting this project whilst quietly pocketing huge sums of money. What a tragedy.

Re- the above message, I quite agree - let's badger the HLF, as they have it within their capability to save this project incredibly easily.

[Tim McLelland]

Okay, we have three weeks to keep this project on the rails. You can do something. Cut and paste this message and send it to:-

[email protected]

I wish to add my name to the long list of enthusiasts, aviators, historians and countless other members of the public who wish to support the HLF's funding of TVOC's programme to restore and fly a Vulcan bomber aircraft.
This project requires a further £250,000 in order to succeed. The HLF has already supprted this project admirably but without this additional cash (before the end of this month) the project will collapse. This message is a direct plea to HLF to release a further £250,000 to TVOC in order that this outstanding project can reach fruition.

Add your name/address

If enough of us make a fuss, we could make a difference.

[Tim McLelland]

Okay, we have three weeks to keep this project on the rails. You can do something. Cut and paste this message and send it to:-

[email protected]

I wish to add my name to the long list of enthusiasts, aviators, historians and countless other members of the public who wish to support the HLF's funding of TVOC's programme to restore and fly a Vulcan bomber aircraft.
This project requires a further £250,000 in order to succeed. The HLF has already supprted this project admirably but without this additional cash (before the end of this month) the project will collapse. This message is a direct plea to HLF to release a further £250,000 to TVOC in order that this outstanding project can reach fruition.

Add your name/address

If enough of us make a fuss, we could make a difference.

[Mike51]

Now I'm totally confused.

VOC themselves are saying that £1m must be raised over the next 4 weeks in order for the project to continue. This seems to make sense, as £1.2m seems to be the figure being quoted to get the rebuild finished and airtests carried out.

"If £1M can be identified and raised over the next four weeks, it may still be possible to move forward to meet the target of flying for the Falklands Commemoration and the 2007 Air Display season."

http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php

Yet Tim McLelland tells us that the target is £250k, supposedly straight from Dr Pleming himself.

I must say that this situation does seem typical of the rather muddled messages coming from VOC over the years.

Does ANYONE out there know the true situation?

[Tim McLelland]

I think I explained what was necessary a couple of messages back? Yes it is a very muddles presentation, but let's not cloud the issue with the wider funding saga, as we've been over this many times before. Arguing at this stage would be counter-productive and we need to do something, otherwise in three weeks from now we'll just be muttering pointlessly about what might have been, don't you think?

[waco]

What a ridiculous waste of money. Will any aircraft restoration project ever get money from the HLF again?

[FeiJi Fancier]

It might be helpful if we had useable email addresses for those other parties - Walton's, Rolls Royce, Marshall's, etc., so that we can make a suitable request to them, too.

FeiJi Fancier.

[Runaway Gun]

I feel sorry for Richard Branson. Every time a project is in need of cash, everyone says "Call the Virgin guy". I've seen his name mentioned on a number of forums about the Vulcan. Give the guy a break. He's very busy.

Next you'll call him up when you have car problems....

"Ullo Richard? Yeah could you spare some cash? It's me car this time.. No? But it's a British classic...yeah yeah it's got three wheels. That's right, just like Mr Bean... oh... oh.... no I don't have Rowan Atkinson's telephone number... Ullo? Richard?"

[ORAC]

Having already put so much cash into the project, it seems crazy that they can't add just a little bit more to see it through - if they don't, then all of their cash is wasted. The phrase good money after bad comes to mind. You can't fill a money pit - only decide when is the right time to stop throwing it in..... :ouch:

[Runaway Gun]

Whilst I feel very sorry for the people involved, and for the possibility that the Vulcan may not fly, you do have to ask yourself "Am I being taken for a ride?"

I'm sure that you are not. However there comes a time when enough is enough, and that giving "Just anover fiver Guv....." might simply be too much, regardless of how much you may have already thrown into the hole.

I wish the Project the best of luck, but you must understand why those 'Tight B@stards' may no longer wish to part with any more money. Their accounts are not always overflowing...

[spekesoftly]

Arguing at this stage would be counter-productive and we need to do something, otherwise in three weeks from now we'll just be muttering pointlessly about what might have been, don't you think?
Until very recently, you have been relentlessly critical of Dr Pleming, the TVOC, and even expressed adverse comment about one of their pilots.

Why, at the eleventh hour, such a change of heart?

[whitworth]

Am I alone in being constantly baffled by this whole saga? XM558 flew into Bruntingthorpe so it was already in half way reasonable nick, and has been hangared since then. It is not a complicated aircraft. It may have been when it was on QRA - but not now. It’s a four jet with basic hydraulics for gear, brakes, speed brakes, nose wheel steering - and PFCU’s for flight control surfaces. The electrics are 50’s technology but now that the NBS and ECM have gone the aircraft has a huge excess of amps available - generators are not a critical item - lose one and you wouldn’t notice.

And I hear that several zero time inhibited engines are on hand, and on the books. There may have been areas of corrosion that needed attention - but why these vast sums of money to get the wheels off the deck again. Apart from a conventional service of hydraulic components and PFCU’s about the biggest non-routine job I would have expected would be some re-wiring in critical areas. And what’s it cost to re-certify two bang seats?

I’m left with a feeling of the ‘man in the street’, the punter, being taken for a ride here. I’d be pleased to be convinced otherwise, but it’ll be difficult. Anyone got any real numbers on costs. I did see a listing somewhere that mentioned several thousand to service a ‘beam compass’ - which, I suspect, supports my point.

The word ‘restoration’ keeps popping up. It ain’t a ‘restoration’, or at least it shouldn’t be - as I said, it flew in………….

I fear you have a very simplistic view of things!

When the aircraft arrived at its current abode, it was , all but, out of life.
The definition of Complex resides with the CAA. Things like mach trim, auto-stab and having no manual reversion of the flying controls all go to putting the aircraft in the Complex category. ( There are a lot of other items, which, if you want, I can go into ).

BAe required that, on top of the standard major, a huge amount of additional structural inspections were carried out. I believe this was to provide the CAA with the confidence that the aircraft was still sound.

EVERY system on the aircraft, hydraulic, pneumatic, oxygen etc has had to be removed and the pipelines flushed to ensure the cleanliness. This is because, although hangared for the last however long, the systems have been empty of their respective media.

I could go on, but, hopefully, this will go some way to explaining why the project if far more complex and time consuming than the average person would think

[allan907]

Well, I've bashed off my email as suggested by Tim - although I suspect they won't take a lot of notice of an ex-pat. So all the rest of you guys (and gals) do that first and let that hurdle fall before you continue with your gloom and doom messages.

IT'S GOT TO BE WORTH A TRY !

[forget]

Whitworth, I suppose a three paragraph opinion on this subject must be simplistic - but your response rather proves my point. You say ‘Things like mach trim, auto-stab and having no manual reversion of the flying controls all go to putting the aircraft in the Complex category.

Question. At what airspeed, below 558’s maximum intended operating altitude, does Mach Trim kick in? If it never will then why is it still (an expensive) functional part of the aircraft.

You say; EVERY system on the aircraft, hydraulic, pneumatic, oxygen etc has had to be removed and the pipelines flushed to ensure the cleanliness.

Hydraulics and pneumatics OK, but when will 558’s display crew need oxygen. If they never will, then the O2 system could have been removed.

Beagle tells us that most of the antique avionics are being replaced by more reliable, modern systems. I’m curious to know just what is being done here. If Marshall’s has been tasked to produce CAA Approved Mod Bulletins to install the wiring and racks for ‘new’ avionics then the eye-watering charges will have sucked a huge amount from the pot.

For what it’s worth, a sensible route would be (in my opinion) to take a 70’s or 80’s ARINC equipped airliner being scrapped and use the top quality factory produced wiring harnesses, racks and boxes for a couple of VHF’s, a Transponder and decent low range Rad Alt. I imagine the UHF, Intercomm etc etc is still fitted so what else is needed on the avionics front, apart from a GPS to help get you there. (Please don’t tell me they’re changing the Attitude and Heading systems!)

My point is; the CAA appears to have decided that every system on the aircraft must be fully operational or it ain’t going. Someone please tell me this isn’t so. Please tell me that a realistic MEL was agreed on that removed everything not needed for a low level, low speed display aircraft.

Whitworth says his post ‘will go some way to explaining why the project if far more complex and time consuming than the average person would think’.

This average person thinks the project if far more complex and time consuming than it should be. This average person spent seven years with Vulcans, Coningsby, Cottesmore and Waddington, involved with wiring and the bits that hang off the end of it and this average person sees a lily being over gilded to point where it may well suffocate - if a lily can suffocate.

[EastMids]

VOC themselves are saying that £1m must be raised over the next 4 weeks in order for the project to continue. This seems to make sense, as £1.2m seems to be the figure being quoted to get the rebuild finished and airtests carried out.
That sum, though, is small compared with the £1,200,000 still needed to complete the aircraft’s restoration, its ground tests, and its air tests, so that it could be handed back to the Trust sometime in the spring of 2007.
Quotes above from the real world - quotes we can all access...

Approximately 250k is needed to keep the restoration project going. If it isn't found, the project ends at the end of this month... Naturally, more money is then needed to keep the aircraft flying... They still believe (probably quite rightly) that once the aircraft flies, sponsors will come forward... Let's not cloud the issue with the wider funding saga...
WHAT??? :mad:

Is is £200-250K, £1M or £1.2M? :ugh:

You've GOT to consider the wider funding issue. Anything else is just likely to result in yet another crisis in a month or two's time - another crisis that will be even more difficult to recover from than the current one.

I want to see it fly. But how much is this f**king thing really going to cost to get to the airshow circuit, and how much is it going to cost to run it thereafter? What contingency funds are available, in addition to the funding needed to get it onto the air show circuit, to cover for further unexpected problems?

Private donations may dribble in, but until there's clarity over how much its going to cost to fly it, how much its going to cost to put it on the show circuit, and how much its going to operate from there on, I really don't see any commercial sponsors in their right mind investing. And my opinion is that until that same information is forthcoming, we're all wasting our own money making further donations ourselves.

No more time for messing around, no more time for shelling out a few pounds now and burying heads in the sand regarding the longer term future, no more time for running this project relying on the emotions of those who would just like to see it fly. Time to reassess. Time to put in place a realistic fully costed and risk assessed plan for now to airshow and beyond with adequate contingency - this is the only way the project stands a realistic change of attracting the realistic investment in needs to get it to fruition.

Andy

[Tim McLelland]

Until very recently, you have been relentlessly critical of Dr Pleming, the TVOC, and even expressed adverse comment about one of their pilots.
Why, at the eleventh hour, such a change of heart?

Not a change of heart as such, but my view is that this just isn't the time to be arguing about the rights and wrongs. With three weeks to keep the project going, our attention ought to be on publicising their plight, and we can worry about the details later.

Regardless of the peculiar (and uncovincing) stories we've read, at least Pleming has taken the time to specifically answer all of my questions and even he accepts that they've not done the best of jobs in publicising and promoting the project. He also freely admits that there have been unforseen costs. Unfortunately he's also unwell at the moment (going into hospital next week) so he's rather out of the loop at a critical time.

So whilst there is much that should be investigated and dicussed, it just seems counter-productive to be worrying about the details, including all of the above discussions on the aircraft's complexity, when there will be nothing to discuss in three weeks, unless the project can be saved.

[Tim McLelland]

I strongly urge everyone to cut n paste my message to the HLF people, and send it to all your friends. As far as I can see, this is the only way in which we could have some direct influence on this project and save it at the proverbial last hour.

It costs you nothing, other that possibly a relatively small lump of Lottery cash that will otherwise be wasted on some hair-brained arts scheme for one-legged Bosnian monkeys with learning disabilities. Let's not get diverted on an argument about the rights and wrongs, the futility of the project, or worry about the future. The point is, the long and expensive programme is going to be written-off in three weeks, unless somebody miraculously stumps-up 250k or (more practically) we can persuade the HLF to "up their investment" slightly. I think I know which route seems to be the most practical!:)

[Tombstone]

I don't see HLF helping the Vulcan out at all Tim, it ain't going to happen.

Having read most of th available litterature on the project, two aspect keeps pushing itself to the forefront... Bad management & the lack of a realistic timeframe. Just my opinion.

I hate to say it however, I think the project is a dead duck.:(

[BEagle]

I wonder whether any movie makers know that the world's only flyable nuclear bomber will probably soon be in airworthy condition? And that 2 others in taxying condition also exist......

Must be scope for some sort of movie? Corrupt African dictator threatens UK expats and their interests in peaceful neighbour nation; HMG too weak to act as no assets ("Well, the SAS is busy in Afghanistan and Iraq - and neither the Navy nor RAF have anything capable of flying that far these days") and worried about 'other interests in the Big Picture', so won't intervene. Dictator lives in unassailable bunker under typical palace. Group of ex-pats finds out about Vulcans and makes plan to steal one, using ancient but hugely sympathetic aircrew. Base secured 'somewhere in N Africa' for refuelling and fitting of a massive bunker-busting conventional bomb. Vulcan is liberated from Bruntingthorpe at dead of night, follows an airliner across Europe, then descends to low level over the Med and lands at N African base. (Various confused ATC shots, jammed fighter radars etc). Later takes off and flies to target at low level, then pops up to height to drop bomb - huge explosion, collapse of palace into bunker, endex for dictator and liberation for locals. Vulcan makes surprise landing at ASI. Meanwhile, HMG totally surprised, claims to know nothing, condemns attack. House in uproar, change of government after vote of no confidence. Back to ASI, aircrew under open arrest are told to make themselves presentable. Unmarked jet lands (long range A319 or similar), stuffy politician announces that they've caused HMG much embarrassment etc etc - then a 'recognisable' prince jumps out, says "Yes, well, that's as maybe but my grandmother is extremely happy" - awards various honours etc. Says "Shall we go?"; "Yes sir, I'll make sure the aircraft will be ready in an hour" says pompous politician.. "Not you, minister, I'm talking to these chaps - I think we'll take the Vulcan home!" Final scene is 558 flying down the Mall.

Yes, yes, very cheesy and Boy's Own, I know. But those 'almost possible' movies (like the very early Bond movies) are so much more interesting than rubbish like 'Firefox' and 'Independence Day'.

5% please!

[forget]

So whilst there is much that should be investigated and dicussed, it just seems counter-productive to be worrying about the details, including all of the above discussions on the aircraft's complexity, when there will be nothing to discuss in three weeks, unless the project can be saved.

The discussion on 'complexities' is asking whether money can, even now, be saved by eliminating non-essentials. Without a degree in economics I can still see that the end result of saving money is exactly the same as the end result of donating money. ie. More dosh available. N'est pas?:confused: :confused:

[The Rocket]

The trouble is, whilst deleting even more systems from the aircraft would undoubtedly save money due to the fact they would not need to be repaired/certified for flight, there are large costs involved in getting Marshall Aerospace to draw up the mods and approve them for the CAA regs. Doubtless there are many superfluous systems for the display role she will take, however it is sometimes more cost effective to restore and re-use these systems as it would cost more money to go through the ridiculous process of paperwork/delays/limitations.

Many systems too, on closer inspection play far more of an important role than it would first appear. Mach trim for example, will come into play at quite a modest IAS at any kind of altitude, especially on the Vulcan which I believe suffers quite badly from a nose down pitch change in the transonic region. The Vulcan will not always be at 1500' in a display routine, and should she have to travel further afield to airshows, it is unrealistic not to mention uneconomical, to do this at low level. Oxygen systems are a CAA requirement, and also pretty bloody handy to have if there are any problems involving fumes in the cockpit. Only the NBS/ECM and other 'war' associated equipment can realistically be removed in it's entirety, as the majority of the rest will be interlinked, and other expensive methods, involving redesigning large chunks of the A/C's systems will have to be employed.

Personally, I genuinely hope that it is not too late for this magnificent aircraft, and have just visited http://www.savethevulcan.co.uk and ordered a drop of commemorative wine, of which all the profits go to Vulcan To The Sky.

I may well soon have some sorrows to drown:(

[UpShutter]

Final scene is 558 flying down the Mall.

Would he be likely to roll it?:)

[Tim McLelland]

The discussion on 'complexities' is asking whether money can, even now, be saved by eliminating non-essentials. Without a degree in economics I can still see that the end result of saving money is exactly the same as the end result of donating money. ie. More dosh available. N'est pas?:confused: :confused:

Yes, all well and good, but you'll find that there are no proverbial corners that can be cut thanks largelyto the CAA. But my point is that right now it's irrelevant in any case - there isn't enough time to argue about such matters. We're down to three weeks.

[Blacksheep]

...as it would cost more money to go through the ridiculous process of paperwork/delays/limitations. I'm glad to see there is at least one other poster who knows the score. So many of those expressing opinions on the costs seem to have no idea of what's involved in gaining civil certification for an ex-military four-jet heavy. Its bad enough putting a civil airliner onto a different register. Its a pity there wasn't someone with experience of de-registering/re-registering aircraft on the project at the beginning. There may then have been a realistic time and cost estimate. :ugh:

[D-IFF_ident]

Since the aircraft has been requested to lead the Falklands memorial flypast next year I honestly hope that a corporation with funding available (that could be written-off in taxes as donations to charity) comes to the fore soon. There are a number of zero life engines and a wharehouse full of parts to keep the project going; I 'd bet they'd even paint it red and put a white swish down the side if it got them the cash.

Good luck fellas! :D :D :D

[The Helpful Stacker]

Since the aircraft has been requested to lead the Falklands memorial flypast next year I honestly hope that a corporation with funding available (that could be written-off in taxes as donations to charity) comes to the fore soon. There are a number of zero life engines and a wharehouse full of parts to keep the project going; I 'd bet they'd even paint it red and put a white swish down the side if it got them the cash.
Good luck fellas! :D :D :D

I know the 'paint it red' thing is tongue in cheek but isn't there some rule about the paint scheme certain ex-RAF a/c are allowed to be painted in. I remember seeing something about it in the paperwork for the Goose Bay Vulcan.

[spekesoftly]

Said rule evidently not applicable to a certain ex-RN aircraft! ;)

[forget]

Hooray! Blacksheep’s remarks have described the problem far better than my previous attempts!

He says, ‘So many of those expressing opinions on the costs seem to have no idea of what's involved in gaining civil certification for an ex-military four-jet heavy’.

As this has never ever been done before, UK civil certification of an ex-military four-jet, pray acquaint us with your obvious experience in the matter. It’s irrelevant, but I’m curious.

He says, ‘It’s bad enough putting a civil airliner onto a different register’. Not in any way related - so why use it.

He says, ‘It’s a pity there wasn't someone with experience of de-registering/re-registering aircraft on the project at the beginning’. Again. Not in any way related.

And this, as I see it, is the whole problem - applying public transport fare paying passenger thinking to a aircraft which will operate on a Permit to Fly, something about which airline people know zilch.

[Tempsford]

Well done Blacksheep.

Although the fineries as to what conditions the a/c will fly under are being debated, you have not let your vision become 'rose tinted'. You have a military and commecial aviation outlook and I would suspect, a good idea as to how much it costs to operate an aircraft commercially.
Okay let's put millions into getting the Vulcan flying. But for how long can this be sustained? Who will pay for its continued airworthiness? If, as I suspect, the concensus of opinion is 'Joe Public' then think again, it isn't going to happen.
Ask the only other private 4 engined bomber operator in the UK how difficult it is to keep the aircraft flying, and that is Sally B. Look at how much effort goes into keeping that aircraft flying along withthe legislative problems that the group supporting the a/c has experienced. I would also suspect that the B17 is somewhat easier to maintain and support than a Vulcan. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about 1950's technology, we are talking about subjects such as high pressure hydraulic systems and jet engines which require high levels of technical support and are very expensive to maintain to the required standard.
As I have said many, many times before, to see a Vulcan flying again would be fantastic, but to maintain a complex aircraft in airworthy condition for a sustained period of time on a commercial basis is not practical or possible.
I would suggest that we 'get real' here folks and stop this pipe dream now.

Temps

[Tombstone]

Agreed. Sadly, the project is fast becoming a complete waste of time & money.

[Tim McLelland]

Not agreed. I think most people would have suggested that the project wasn't worth starting if they'd known how it would turn-out, but we're a long way from that stage now. Your position doesn't make sense. What possible benefit could there be in allowing years of hard work and huge amounts of money, plus the hopes of thousands of enthusiasts, just be dumped at this final hurdle?

If you think the project is a waste of time then that's fine - everyone has a view, but please don't try and drag everybody down at this critical stage when we have a fighting chance of at least getting the aircraft into the air. If it all ends in failure then at least we can say that everybody tried; just saying "it's a waste of time and money" is pointlessly negative.

[iank]

I've just been going through back issues of the Vulcan Club and Vuclan Display Association magazine - not much to read in the sunday paper!

In one of them I'd tucked a letter presumably from early in 2002 promoting the 50th Anniversary Vulcan Cash Draw - the second paragraph I'd forgotten about in the time since

Quote
"As Dr Robert Pleming informed us at the AGM, the engineering phase of the project is complete and corporate money will come in when 558 is ready to fly, that is just the way UK finance works.

So it is is up to all of us to raise the "Return to Flight" money" endQuote

OK, so in four years costs have slipped - probably more than expected, but the 22,000 core supporters (and I'm one of them) were warned of the task. I think we were mesmerised by those words again "PR / marketing" into thinking that money would appear almost magically - except then UK taxes went up, gas and electric prices rocketed and a hundred other things that make 'UK PLC' sluggish as an economy.

Would you as a commercial venture, sponsor a pile of parts in a hangar on the promise it might fly - I think not! So the plan hasn't really changed - the enthusiasts have to dig deep to get it to a test flight and then let's see what happens.

[Tim McLelland]

Exactly - it's impossible to predict how successful the Vulcan project might be until they get a chance to try. The hope is that sponsors will come forward when they see what they're getting for their money but of course there are no guarantees. But it's just not the time to be asking questions - something needs to be done right now, otherwise it will result in a pointless argument about what might have been. Having come this far, done so much work, raised so much cash and spent huge amounts, it would be complete madness not to at least try.

I urge everyone to cut n' paste my email message and send it to the HLF. Then mail it to all your friends. The same message is on other web sites too and lots of people are sending it to HLF. We might well get nowhere but when the HLF has already poured-in so much cash, I think it would be a disgrace if they allowed this money (which we've given them) to be written-off, save for chipping-in a relatively small amount of additional cash. We have the power of numbers to make a fuss and raise the profile of this project before it's too late. It costs you nothing so please have a go!

[Tempsford]

Tim,
Agreed, the debate will continue for years to come. 'What might have been' will be the matter of conjecture, but unless a clear, concise, agreed, workable, cost effective business plan is available then why should anyone invest any further in this project? Potential investors from either industry or the private sector will not invest because it would be nice do be involved, they want a return on their money.
There is no doubt that a lot of work has already been carried out on XH558, but exactly what is left to do to make the a/c airworthy? Once established what is the business plan to keep the a/c airworthy? Would the investors and contibutors have committed so much investment in the first place if they had known that funding towards the end of the project would have been so tight? Perhaps not. I would also not hesitate in saying that now is most certainly the time to be asking questions and lots of them. It may be that the reason for lack of further funding is due to a lack of faith in the current structure or lack of knowledge as to the task in hand. It may be that the only way to salvage the situation is to make any required changes and also to restore the faith required in the project by future investors. I still stand by my comments that we should walk away from the project to fly the a/c again. Perhaps a taxiable project for the time being until a new strategy to get the a/c airworthy may be an option.
Is the way in which this project is heading possibly going to have an adverse effect on future funding for such projects? QED.

Temps

[Tim McLelland]

I'm in danger of repeating myself here but whilst all of your comments may be correct, there's absolutely no point raking-over the details right now. Going-off at a tangent to discuss the whole project is counter-productive when there's less than three weeks in which to keep the project going. I'm sure there will be plenty of time to delve into the saga at a later stage, but unless the money appears this month, there won't be any point at all...

[Aye right!]

Was just thinking Tim.

Wouldn't the Vulcan look nice in pink?;)

[Tim McLelland]

Personally, I think not. I'd be happier with dark green, medium sea grey and white, complete with red, white and blue insignia and a black radome - just like "proper" Vulcans should be:D

[Aye right!]

Good man.:ok:

[andrewmcharlton]

Its got to be the time to discuss the rights and wrongs of the project. If the management team had a coherent plan, a good budget and a realistic timescale with all reasonably foreseeable contingencies factored in, giving money now and in the future would make sense.

If all that happens is we pile money in so that the poor lads in the workshops survive another month and the previous owners and current "consultants" take another months wedge out, what is the point ?

The management team have to either a. step up to the plate, come clean and give us the transparency and plans, or b. bugger off and either close it down and not take anyones cash on a false promise or c. bugger off and get someone in who can deliver.

[Tim McLelland]

I really don't understand this kind of logic. I've just been looking at the posts on UKAR about this same subject and it's mind-numbing to see how some people on there (in typical fashion) can't even be bothered to cut and paste a simple message and email it (a task which takes about a minute and costs nothing) but they can take the time to write paragraphs whining and bitching about the project, presumably to supposedly impress us all with their views... even though we've heard the same moans and comments a hundred times or more.

We all know that the project has had a troubled past and I've been doing my best to follow it with more than a little cynicism, as you'll see if you trace my postings on here. But this just isn't the time to be going over this ground again. There's less than three weeks before the project gets closed-down and the people get laid-off. You can virtually guarantee that once the project stops, it will never start again. The aircraft will be rolled-out, and probably never go back into the hangar, and she'll be left out in the open at Bruntigthorpe to slowly rot. Years of work, money-raising, enthuisasm and high hopes, along with a pile of Lottery cash, will have been thrown-away. What possible point is there in allowing this to happen, unless it's merely for the benefit of the miserable UKAR users who are waiting to post-up their "I told you so" messages next month?

We all know that the project requires huge sums of cash to keep going, and everything ultimately depends on sponsorship. But there's not even a hope of sponsorship until the project is completed and the aircraft flies. If XH558 only succeeds in making a few test flights and a handful of public appearances next year, surely this is better than allowing the project to fail, for the sake of 250k? The deal is this - we'll never know what might or might not happen unless the aircraft flies. If the 250k is found, it's pretty certain that it will fly. If it isn't found, the project ends, and despite a long saga of finger-pointing, the end result will still be another pile of non-airworthy metal.

There are no guarantees in this project and I'm sure there are many people who might well have to account for their actions sooner or later. But let's be adult about this and do the finger-pointing at the right time. Moaning and arguing right now will achieve absolutely nothing except failure.

The only possible way (save for a miracle) that the cash can be found, is if the HLF can cough-up a little more cash to add to the money they've already allocated. TVOC seem certain that they won't do this, but as members of the Lottery-paying public, we have every right to press them to do so. If they allow their money to be wasted simply because they're too pig-headed to spend a little bit more, they're a disgrace. I'm not defending TVOC, but right now we need to be clear about what is important. To do nothing and get sidetracked with the wider aspects of the project at this moment in time is counter-productive; It's a bit like proposing to have an inquest on the Titanic disaster on the upper deck, while people are jumping into lifeboats...

[andrewmcharlton]

Tim,

Where do you get your certainty from that £250k will see her fly ?

The TVOC website quotes a cool million.

The present incumbents have been unable to attract a corporate sponsor despite their plan depending on it not to mention the countless other issues varius others have raised here and elsewhere. I like lots of others donate every month. I want to see it fly. I am not prepared to plough cash into a bottomless pit managed by those who have a continual track record of failure.

The good doctor and our bond girl are nowhere to be seen with no messages to keep the donors, the project lifeblood updated. Apparently they will respond to you but just not go public and face the music. How can you blame people for doubting when they treat their donors like that ? I am perplexed. If they stood up and gave us the whole unedited truth they may find that they win some respect and get some support, without they create suspicion and intrigue and noone believes a word.

Its not a question of give now and discuss later, that is just staving off the ill fated day. Make the changes needed now and then perhaps the big bird will fly instead of rusting in a hangar that the previous owners will doubtless take delight in collecting the rent for.

[Tim McLelland]

The figures on the various sites are confusing, but basically a sum of around 250k is needed to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. Without this cash, TVOC have accepted that the project will have to be ended then, purely for legal reasons centered on the Trust's status, etc. Consequently they have been obliged to issue redundancy notices and so on, whilst hoping that the wind-up might still be avoided.

I believe FI is on holiday and I also think it's, shall we say inappropriate that she should be away at this critical time. But what do we do? Sit on our hands and sulk until she comes back? As I say, we can argue about Felicity and everything else at a later stage, if needs be. As for Dr Pleming, he is going into hospital this week, so he's physically unable to do anything, and he's as frustrated as everyone else it seems.

Dr Pleming seems confident that sufficient money might be raised to avoid winding-up the project, but my own view is that it probably won't be achieved unless the HLF has a change of heart and steps-in. But either way, we will know in three weeks.

Likewise, Dr Pleming accepts that the project could be put "on hold" next month, and the whole saga could be examinined in detail, maybe even going so far as to re-starting the project under a new Trust or whatever. But we're all pretty certain that this will not happen. Once the Vulcan leaves Walton's over-priced hangar and the Marshall engineers go home, the project is dead and who (I mean seriously, who?!) is ever going to take it on again?

I agree that it's disheartening to be continually sending-off donations when there's no guarantee that the aircraft will ever manage more than a few test flights. This is where I firmly believe that the aircraft's short-term future rests with the HLF. They and probably they alone, have the ability to keep this project alive until it reaches the critical flight stage, and after so much money and effort has been poured into the project, I think it only right that they should keep the project alive until the aircraft flies.

I agree that there are many questions that TVOC need to answer and there must be many stages of this project where things could have been done very differently. But we have to keep these matters for later. Right now, I think the only sensible thing we can do is to badger the HLF to do a little more, rather than waste all the money that we (and they) have spent so far.

[andrewmcharlton]

I agree about badgering HLF, no problem with that and will be sending mine off as a registered letter in the morning as well as email so it can get onto someone's desk instead of their spam filter.

Whilst I totally agree that the project should get some additional support from HLF, and I hate to say this, if I was sat at HLF HQ with more info than we have frankly, and someone says, "£250k to TVOC or to a cancer research charity or some other good cause, ?" What do you think they would do and more to the point what would the majority of tax payers / lottery buyers want if you are objective about it ?

I hope they get what they need, thats 2 things in my book, the cash and the stringing up of Miss Boom Boom Bang Bang and the remainder of the management team, metaphorically. (People would pay to see that!!!)

Forgive my stupidity, but is it beyond possibilities that another hangar could be built on site for less than these ludicrous rental payments ? Why don't we paint the bird white and sell space on it to uncle tom cobbley aka F1 cars and let anyone take out an advert as big or small as they like and get 100 SME donors giving £5k each instead of this barking mad idea that someone will sponsor the delta with £500k.

[Blacksheep]

He says, ‘It’s bad enough putting a civil airliner onto a different register’. Not in any way related - so why use it... ...And this, as I see it, is the whole problem - applying public transport fare paying passenger thinking to a aircraft which will operate on a Permit to Fly, something about which airline people know zilch.Not the first time my technical competence has been questioned. :rolleyes:

I'm an ex-military technician with military experience on the Vulcan B1A and B2 who has advanced to professional status and senior management in civil aircraft maintenance. Along the way having headed a technical services department and held a limited design approval as per BCAR A2-5 - which in this case is very relevant.

Maintenance of the Vulcan aircraft is under BCAR A8-20, Supplement 2.1.2 of which refers to:
(a) A3-7 sub para 3.1(d) for the basis for the issue of a Permit to Fly and to
(b) A3-7 Appendix 1 which lists the evidence to be provided to substantiate the issue. I recommend anyone unfamiliar with large aircraft maintenance to read these tomes. You can find them here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP553.PDF) and it may help in understanding why the restoration and operation of the old girl is so very expensive.
Further, A8-20 paragraph 2.4 states that for any modifications "Normal procedures as detailed in Chapter A2-5 will apply."

Now as a holder of limited design approval I had to be very familiar with these requirements. In particular, Major Modifications are classified as any that require revisions to the technical manuals. In other words, just about everything. For approval for a Major Modification one must submit an application for CAA approval on Form 282. Not to mention that it is the contractor - in this case a limited company responsible to shareholders for making a profit - to design the modifications and apply for CAA approval.

Its usually a very, very expensive process and as forget pointed out, issuing a Permit To Fly has never been done before for an ex-military aircraft of this size and complexity.

Do I know zilch? Indeed - lots of it ;)

[A2QFI]

I have followed this fairly closely and, without getting involved in who has and hasn't done what and when, I have to ask - if £250K is needed to keep things going to the end of August, surely some more will be needed every month for the forseeable future and where will that come from? I can appreciate that that the outgoings may be reduced by making the engineers redundant but then the project is going to falter anyway. £250K gets them to 1st September - then what?

[MrBernoulli]

I think this Vulcan thing will end in tears. Aircraft like this are just too big, expensive and difficult to run outside of their original military environments.

Before the easliy-excited amongst you raise your blood pressure to dangerous levels I will add that I am a professional aviator, former military with time on a V-type. The Vulcan was a great airshow draw and it would be great if it could perform again. However, I really don't believe it is a viable project. You have to get over it.

[Tombstone]

I really don't understand this kind of logic. I've just been looking at the posts on UKAR about this same subject and it's mind-numbing to see how some people on there (in typical fashion) can't even be bothered to cut and paste a simple message and email it (a task which takes about a minute and costs nothing) but they can take the time to write paragraphs whining and bitching about the project, presumably to supposedly impress us all with their views... even though we've heard the same moans and comments a hundred times or more.


Tim,

have you considered the possibility that some people may infact believe that the project is a waste of time and, as a result, do not wish to 'cut and paste' your message?

Sorry chaps, I'm dead against more public money being poured into this badly run project. Tim's estimates on costing are, quite frankly, a joke. It would cost millions of pounds to keep this aircraft on the airshow circuit for just a few seasons.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
Your enthusiasm is commendable, as is your energy to keep this alive, but the fact is that the project is (well almost) dead in the water.
It has failed for a number of reasons, ALL of them predictable and ALL of them forseeable even to the 'non-aviation' minded amongst us.
Bad Management is the primary cause, and that rests clearly on the shoulders of one man in particular.
Even at this late stage, there is no clear understanding or confirmation about how much is needed, and A2QFI makes a good point when he asks what happens at the end of August? Do we try to revive this project and bumble along on a month by month 'rolling goat' basis? Frankly, that is just silly and unrealistic.
'It 'aint gonna happen' Tim, certainly NOT whilst the present management and hangers-on are in the picture. Too much money has been wasted and gone astray into peoples bank accounts, and I fear that the only thing that will fly in this project, will be the smelly stuff when HM Police Force gets their teeth into it.
Let it go Tim.
TSM

[iank]

Sorry chaps, I'm dead against more public money being poured into this badly run project.

...and next month when Lottery grants are announced for Gay Tibetan Guinea Pig farmers, Traumatised Dutch mountain cllimbers and so forth will you still feel that the Lottery shouldn't have helped out a bit further?

I'm as sceptical as anyone about management of the project but the HLF did think the business plan (which incorporated the display phase of the aircraft) made sense - and I'm sure they subjected it to accountants not enthusiasts. What's happened so far are supplier cost overruns - Eurofighter, Army communications systems, the first Nimrod re-vamp all suffer it, look at UK Gas bills and petrol prices for a simple view. Someone has to pay for those price rises...