Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)

[allan907]

....and this is the standard reply:

Thank you for your email. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust was awarded a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) grant of £2.73million in June 2004. This grant is for the restoration of the Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558, plans for it to fly for another 10-15 years and for it to be kept at the Imperial War Museum in Duxford. An accompanying education programme is also planned which will tell the story of the Cold War.

The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is doing a terrific job restoring the Vulcan Bomber and we have been impressed with their ability to stick to the proposed timetable for getting the aircraft up and running. However, the Trust has let us know that costs have escalated and it is having problems securing additional funding.


We are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward. Whilst we sympathise with their financial difficulties, it would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant.

Regards

Clare Henderson

Information Manager

Heritage Lottery Fund

Direct line: 020 7591 6044



However, if enought people email it might change their minds.

Mods How about a merge with the other thread about 558??

[Tim McLelland]

Exactly Alan - they've started sending out this standard reply to everyone, but as you can see, they use the term "unlikely" rather than "imossible"...

Like you say, if enough people make the effort to send an email, and make sure all their friends do too, we can at least be sure that HLF is not going to dismiss the pleas for more cash. They're still talking to TVOC and I have some direct contacts at HLF connected with the project, so I'll also be pressing them to at least consider helping out.

As you say, let's get to the final hurdle and jump it before we start attributing blame to anyone. Carts before horses and all that...

[Tim McLelland]

Indeed, I've been muttering about TVOC's activities for a long time and I think there are lots of rather difficult questions which they will have to answer sooner or later. But Pleming has been clear to state that he accepts the project hasn't run perfectly and that cost over-runs have arisen. When you learn of how Marshall's have done nothing to support the project other than take a full fee, and how Rolls Royce have done likewise... and then you learn that the original owner is charging huge sums of money just to keep the aircraft under cover, you can see that it has become something of a farce.

But as I keep saying - this just isn't the time to start the witch hunt. Finish the project first and then there is at least an aircraft with a future to decide. Right now there looks like being nothing other than a load of wasted cash. That can't make sense can it?

[speeddial]

If WEBF's SeaJet thread couldn't keep the SHAR flying then what chance does Tim's Vulcan thread have?

[South Bound]

I suppose it comes down to whether or not one believes another injection of cash will achieve anything or go the way of the rest of it. Personally, I like to see the historic aircraft fly, even this cold war dinosaur, but don't see why anyone publicly should subsidise it, including MA, BAe or the previous owner.

[Yellow Sun]

When you learn of how Marshall's have done nothing to support the project other than take a full fee, and how Rolls Royce have done likewise... and then you learn that the original owner is charging huge sums of money just to keep the aircraft under cover, you can see that it has become something of a farce.

OK, let's get this straight, the Waltons buy an old aircraft, they realise there's some risk involved, but they think it's worth a punt. The difficulties are too great so they decide to sell said old jet. Along come a group of enthusiasts who want to take on the project and agree to the Walton's terms. The Waltons are happy, they've made a return on their investment and continue to receive income from their fixed asset. i.e. the hangar. The new group agree contracts with various companies to have work carried out at commercial rates. Now the enthusiasts group find out that they've got their sums wrong and cannot finish the project, so it will have to fold, simple?

Of course it's not the enthusiasts' fault, they couldn't have foreseen that companies actually require payment at the market rate; if they don't, then they are called "Sponsors". Sponsors seem to be sadly lacking, maybe because their accountants are unconvinced by the figures presented to them (they operate to commercial standards unlike the HLF) or maybe because the people they consult about the operational elements of the plan provide a more objective view than the enthusiasts. Either way, no sponsors, no money.

So, as has been said above, "Get over it", it's not going to happen because it just costs too much and is not commercially viable.

I flew the Vulcan, displayed it and have 20 years in commercial aviation. I never felt that this project was viable but I am sorry that I seem to being proved correct.

Yellow Sun

[Tim McLelland]

I think the annoyance with the likes of Marshall's, BAe and Rolls Royce comes from the way that they like to push their "British engineering is best" bit when it suits them, but when a project comes along which will promote a classic example of British design and technology, they can't lift a finger to help. BAe have helped if only by proxy, but for Marshalls and RR to have simply taken their commercial cut? Seems shabby to say the least. Just seems to indicate that their all about making a fast buck, and don't give a stuff about British achievements.

As for restoring a Sea Harrier, I've never heard anything about that so I can't comment. But of course the Vulcan project has effectively been running ever since the aircraft left RAF service, so it hasn't been some half-hearted fantasy. Indeed, it's the minute detail and the comprehensive re-fit (insisted-on by CAA) which has allowed the programme to take so long and become so expensive. In effect, we have the results of the most ambitious aircraft restoration so far attempted, and yet it is in danger of failing just weeks before the aircraft will be capable of flying again. We've come all this way and spent huge sums of cash... and now it ends just short of the final achievement? Surely that's crazy?

[Winco]

Tim,
I might be a little more sympathetic to the plight of this project, if Pleming had taken the time and had the decency to respond to the likes of myself, and many others, when we wrote or e mailed him with questions about the projects viability. Sadly, I did not receive anything, and I understand many others did not either.
The problem I have is the one raised earlier about where does it end?
Yes, we could all cough up just another tenner, but what happens next month? is it another tenner then? and the month after that?
Your comments about Walton frankly infuriate me. It shows him in a particularly bad light, and whilst it pains me to tell you, this has been commented on before on a number of occasions, and everyone who has questioned it has been shot down in flames, being told that D Walton is a 'nice man' - hmmm, yes OK.
We must draw a line under this farce until something a little more concrete is in place. As has already been said, this cannot be run on a hand-to-mouth basis but needs a new management team to go in a take over the running, preferably a team with a little bit of experience in aviation! Until then, I will not be putting any more money into Plemings' or Waltons pockets.
The Winco

ps. As for a witch hunt Tim, the 'hunt' has been going on for a long time, with a lot of people looking to find out where all the money has gone. A great deal of credibility could be achieved by being up front and honest to the British Public. You never know, it may even spurr a few on to donate!

[Tombstone]

...and next month when Lottery grants are announced for Gay Tibetan Guinea Pig farmers, Traumatised Dutch mountain cllimbers and so forth will you still feel that the Lottery shouldn't have helped out a bit further?


Not exactly realistic examples are they? ;)

IMHO, the bottom line is that we are potentially looking at a black hole of a project, which will swallow as much money as you can throw at it and that is unacceptable.

The Vulcan has retired, let her sleep gracefully.

[Yellow Sun]

Indeed, it's the minute detail and the comprehensive re-fit (insisted-on by CAA) which has allowed the programme to take so long and become so expensive.

OK Tim, so it's the CAA's fault then? So you fully understand how this works from your extensive dealings with them? You are conversant with the regulatory regime? "Permit to Fly" does not mean it can be treated as a light aircraft. Because it is not going to carry passengers does not mean it is not a commercial undertaking and the aircraft is not going to be involved in "Aerial Work". The regulations applied by the CAA are in place to ensure the safety of the public and the operators, which ones do you propose to ignore Tim?

YS

[iank]

OK, let's get this straight, the Waltons buy an old aircraft, they realise there's some risk involved, but they think it's worth a punt. The difficulties are too great so they decide to sell said old jet. Along come a group of enthusiasts who want to take on the project and agree to the Walton's terms.


I think that the Waltons had to sell the aircraft to the Trust because the Heritage Lottery Fund wouldn't (and still doesn't I believe) give grants to private individuals only charities/groups and such like.

Let's not forget either, that when the Waltons bought the Vulcan, they alos bought the RAF spares stockholding - some 800 tons and trawled the various Vulcan bases for test rigs and equipment that would help them return the Aircraft to flight. Whilst they saw it as a commerical venture initially (along with all the other historics then based at Bruntingthorpr - the Grace spitfire, Canberra WK163 et al), it wasn't with a view to selling it all off and making a profit!

[dakkg651]

I have been following this thread with interest and up to last evening I would have agreed with the view that this latest requirement of emergency funding to keep the project going is almost the final drinking implement.

My thirteen year old son, who has been donating a percentage of his pocket money to the project for the last 14 months, discovered the latest glitch yesterday. When he looked me in the eye and asked me "will I see it fly" I realised again why this project is so important

Not many things left in this Country we can be proud of.

Lets give it one more chance.

[Tim McLelland]

OK Tim, so it's the CAA's fault then? So you fully understand how this works from your extensive dealings with them? You are conversant with the regulatory regime? "Permit to Fly" does not mean it can be treated as a light aircraft. Because it is not going to carry passengers does not mean it is not a commercial undertaking and the aircraft is not going to be involved in "Aerial Work". The regulations applied by the CAA are in place to ensure the safety of the public and the operators, which ones do you propose to ignore Tim?
YS

And the point of your sarcasm is what, exactly?
The CAA insists on everything being done to meet their rules. Fine. Problem is, they're the CAA's rules, imposed and designed by the CAA. Nobody ever investigates them. Nobody even questions them. Clearly, different rules apply in other countries, not least the US and South Africa. You can bet that the project would have been much, much easier without the CAA, but that's yet another argument and yet another tangent we can go-off to explore, instead of concentrating on the more important fact that there's now less than three weeks in which to keep the project running...

I know I'm repeating myself here but no matter how many postings people make, we have heard all (and I do mean all) of these comments before. Some people think it's a lost cause, some think it's worth one last push. Point is, no matter which way you look at it, the whole saga is going to be irrelevant if some more cash isn't found fast.

[danohagan]

I really don't understand this kind of logic. I've just been looking at the posts on UKAR about this same subject and it's mind-numbing to see how some people on there (in typical fashion) can't even be bothered to cut and paste a simple message and email it (a task which takes about a minute and costs nothing) but they can take the time to write paragraphs whining and bitching about the project, presumably to supposedly impress us all with their views... even though we've heard the same moans and comments a hundred times or more.

But until your enlightening contact with Dr Pleming, Tim (aka Chox), you weren't exactly gushing with positivity on the project were you?http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=1;t=14106;st=140

Why the change in attitude? Are your own commercial interests tied up with a return to flight in any way?

[Yellow Sun]

Problem is, they're the CAA's rules, imposed and designed by the CAA. Nobody ever investigates them. Nobody even questions them. Clearly, different rules apply in other countries, not least the US and South Africa. You can bet that the project would have been much, much easier without the CAA

Ever heard of the JAA or EASA? What you wrote is completely irrelevant, the intention is to operate the Vulcan in the UK not some other country. Therefore it must comply with the appropriate legislation. The Authority lays down the standards, if you think they are incorrect, innapropriate or just plain wrong, you make a case for a dispensation but that case must be relevant to the environment in which you operate. Just because it's done differently elsewhere won't wash, that doesn't make it better or safer. If anyone in TVOC was under the impression that they could somehow circumvent the bits that they didn't like then it only goes to show how woefully naive they were.

YS

[GeeRam]

The CAA insists on everything being done to meet their rules. Fine. Problem is, they're the CAA's rules, imposed and designed by the CAA. Nobody ever investigates them. Nobody even questions them.

Err........I think you'll find that's definately not the case.:ugh:

There are many that have been involved over the years dealing with the CAA in regards returning or proposals to return ex-mil jet to the air in civvie ownership.....Sea Vixen, Bucc, Lightning etc.,etc to know just how many hoops would have to be jumped through, only to end up going around in circles to jump through them again etc.....

Lots of been there done that.........and it's all these that are the sceptical ones that to a man would dearly love to see a Vulcan in the air again but from bitter experience know the realities of the task, and yet despite these hard bitten experiences gained over many years they are shot down in flames as being non-believers rather than just being plain realistic.

As soon as this project had to become a commercial one, because of the CAA/BAe/HLF it ceased to be a viable one.....simple as that.

[Tombstone]

Spot on GeeRam.

Tim, you're beating a drum that has had it's day. There is no real insentive, emotions aside, to resurect the Vulcan within the current financial constraints. It simply will not happen, certainly not in the UK.:ugh:

[BEagle]

What a bunch of doom-ridden old women with singular lack of vision!

"My thirteen year old son, who has been donating a percentage of his pocket money to the project for the last 14 months, discovered the latest glitch yesterday. When he looked me in the eye and asked me "will I see it fly" I realised again why this project is so important

Not many things left in this Country we can be proud of.

Lets give it one more chance."

Damn good show, sir! Bloody right - and that's what this is all about. Now will the rest of you moaning minnies stop being so depressingly negative and at least write and tell the HLF that you also want to see 558 fly again!

[Tim McLelland]

What is it with you people? How many times do I have to say that I'm not interested in going over the same ground again and again. We've heard all these points many times before and we're all pretty-much agreed on them. My point was that this is not the time to be raising them.

If you think the project is a dead duck then fine. I was asking other people who have a bit of ambition, imagination and spirit, to stick with it a little longer and at least see the project through to the end. Just continually saying "it won't work" is the kind of silly attitude that stops this kind of project from ever starting in the first place. If you can't offer any help, constructive criticism or advice, then what is the point of even posting a message?

We've done all the whining and bitching. We know that TVOC needs to be brought to account. But can we please stop going over the same points over and over again, and those of us who want to try and save the project can look at trying to help, instead of simply crying "doom" at every opportunity.


As for your sparkling input dan, I think we'd all be grateful if you'd keep your nasty comments to yourself, or at least confine them to the equally childish UKAR site where they belong. Of course I have absolutely no commercial interest in the project whatsoever. Sorry to disappoint you. And yes, I have been very critical of the TVOC project, as I've said on here repeatedly... but then you'd know that if you'd bothered to read what I've already said. Oh I forgot - actually reading posts was never one of UKAR's strong points...

Now, is there even the vaguest chance that anyone might like to say something constructive about the project, or are we doomed to read endless pages of woe and misery? If that's all that's on offer, at least save it for next month when you can have your "I Told You So" party.

[Tim McLelland]

Err........I think you'll find that's definately not the case.:ugh:
There are many that have been involved over the years dealing with the CAA in regards returning or proposals to return ex-mil jet to the air in civvie ownership.....Sea Vixen, Bucc, Lightning etc.,etc to know just how many hoops would have to be jumped through, only to end up going around in circles to jump through them again etc.....
Lots of been there done that.........and it's all these that are the sceptical ones that to a man would dearly love to see a Vulcan in the air again but from bitter experience know the realities of the task, and yet despite these hard bitten experiences gained over many years they are shot down in flames as being non-believers rather than just being plain realistic.
As soon as this project had to become a commercial one, because of the CAA/BAe/HLF it ceased to be a viable one.....simple as that.

Okay, maybe I should have been clearer - I was referring mainly to the toothless aviation press that has never bothered to ask the CAA why they arbitarily set rules and regulations that are far in excess of anything laid-down in some other countries where, inexplicably, they suffer from no more deaths or injuries than we do here. Projects like the Vulcan face an uphill struggle from the start, but the CAA certainly don't make things any easier. Their obession with safety and over-regulation is just overdone to the point of absurdity. But I digress, yet again... moaning about the CAA isn't going to raise so much as a penny for TVOC.

[forget]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/DT2.jpg

[brickhistory]

As for your sparkling input dan, I think we'd all be grateful if you'd keep your nasty comments to yourself, or at least confine them to the equally childish UKAR site where they belong. Of course I have absolutely no commercial interest in the project whatsoever. Sorry to disappoint you. And yes, I have been very critical of the TVOC project, as I've said on here repeatedly... but then you'd know that if you'd bothered to read what I've already said. Oh I forgot - actually reading posts was never one of UKAR's strong points...


Really?

From your post in "Vulcan Aircrew?" thread, dated 24 Mar 06:

".....I think you'll find that my prophecy is correct, as I wrote "The Vulcan Story" years ago, and it's still recognised as the best (and certainly biggest) book on the subject, even though it's showing its age now (and the reprinted edition was ghastly!). The new book will be more than twice the size of that book, so I think the odds on anyone else producing anything better, are virtually zero, and this is why I want the new book to be as good as possible.
Okay, some small publishers will undoubtedly turn-out "monographs" or similar books, but large publishing companies just don't touch this kind of subject any more (wish they did!), so I think it's fair to say that the new book will be as good as it gets."


Modest as well, I see................

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEagle,
I am somewhat surprised at your attitude over this old boy. If you know something that the rest of us don't know, then pray tell, but don't condemn those amongst us who are being realistic over this utter fiasco.
I won't go over old ground, but there are still lots of questions and NO answers Sir. Even you must agree on that point surely?
We are not 'doom-ridden old women with singular lack of vision' we are sensible people who have reached the conclusion that the project is on its death bed, and without a cash injection it will die! I am willing to guarantee, that even with the £250K, unless there is a serious change in management, THE PROJECT WILL STILL DIE! There is NO plan of action is there? No one can or will say what will happen at the end of next month? And even if it gets rolled out, are you still 100% confident that a big-money sponsor will come forward? 'cos I'm not. I beleive that if anyone was going to come forward, then they would have done so by now. Imagine the publicity they would achieve.......'BEAGLE LTD SAVES VULCAN PROJECT'
What would you have us do BEagle, just keep throwing more and more money into the pot so Walton can get this months rent? Well not from me he 'aint! The same goes for Plemings 'consultancy' work - some consultant he has turned out to be eh?
Sorry all, I fear the end is nigh!
Kind regards
TSM

[BEagle]

"....at least write and tell the HLF that you also want to see 558 fly again!"

Is that clear enough? Did you understand it that time?

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEagle,
Now I know you are losing it old boy. Sarcasm was never your strong point, and this latest outburst proves that.
I am sorry, but I will NOT write to the HLF and ask them to chuck another quarter of a million pounds at it, when a good percentage of that WILL NOT go to getting the aircraft back in the air.
ARE YOU NOW GETTING IT BEAGLE?
The money is NOT going to the aircraft, its going to the likes of David Walton for 'rent' and to Dr Pleming for 'consultancy' and God knows who else, NOT the aircraft.
For goodness sake man, thats why this project is a loser, because a 'few' are making lots of money out of it - even Tim admits that!
Time for a lie down and a large glass of grouse!!
Kind regards to all
TSM

[danohagan]

Tim,

Do you agree that the business plan for operating the Vulcan on the display circuit, as it stands, with or without the HLF, is totally unworkable? And TVOC have yet to show us otherwise?

[Winco]

BEagle
Instead of cheap jibes, why don't you give us all the benefit of your experience and answer some of the questions on this forum?
In fact, why don't you just answer one.................
If they do get £250k to keep them going to the end of August, will you be of the same mindset when they come at the begining of September and say "we need just another £250k or else it folds"
And if you are, then at what stage will you say "hang on a minute chaps, what is happening here?" Because that's all people are saying NOW - "what on earth is going on here"?
They are not fools or old women, they are clearly passionate people who have given of their hard-earned cash, and want to know what is happening to it and why it is/has been wasted.
The Winco

[iank]

The money is NOT going to the aircraft, its going to the likes of David Walton for 'rent' and to Dr Pleming for 'consultancy' and God knows who else, NOT the aircraft.


Might one presume that the inverted commas you place around 'rent' and 'consultancy' are there to suggest that this is not the case and that they are merely words being used to cover something else?

If so, I think that you should proceed carefully unless you have proof to substantiate your claim - you could be construed as committing a libel here, in which case Messrs Walton & Pleming may decide to test that in court - you might end up contributing personally to their financial futures!! Whilst there is speculation aplenty about the Trust and it's finances, I would urge folk to tread carefully and perhaps take a leaf from Private Eye and preface such 'allegations' (if that's what they are) with "allegedly...".

I'm not connected with the Trust or anything, just an interested party having been a donor to the project since '93 and I can see tempers being raised in many forums - we just need to be careful, there are people reading who might decide we're 'easy meat' for a court case!

[The Swinging Monkey]

iank

Thank you for the advice.
The inverted commas were in no way intended to suggest any underhandedness or anything of the sort, and if I have implied that, then I apologise unreservidly.
Like yourself, I have been a donor for many years, and I am extremely frustrated at the goings on of late.
Maybe I should quietly retire from venting my anger, and return to my knitting!

Kind regards
TSM

[andrewmcharlton]

Here's an interesting one for the trustees to mull over .....

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/library/publications/pdfs/cc3(a)text.pdf

Can anyone spot any issues that may be cause for concern to the trustees ? I wonder if they ever read this ?

[Tombstone]

Beagle & Tim,

I will walk around every into each Sqn crewroom at Marham, naked with a rose between my arse cheeks, singing a song of your choice if the Vulcan ever flies again.

The project is almost as badly as some of the tasks carried out on the BBC's 'The Apprentice'.

The 250k won't do anything other that keep the project milling over at its woefully slow pace.

There is very little commercial backing for the Vulcan(the killer blow IMHO).

Aircraft such as the B17 & Lancaster should and will always get the funding (if only just) as they contributed towards our freedom in such a way that the Vulcan does not come close to. The nuclear detterent was obviously an important aspect of the UK's cold war defence however, I don't think you can compare an a/c that held Nuclear QRA with an a/c that men died in over Germany IMHO.

The Black Buck missions were a great achievment however, there impact on the outcome of the conflict was arguably a minor one. This being the only actual combat the Vulcan participated in, I don't think it merits an endless supply of funding to get it flying for a year or two.

Perhaps any funding heading towards the Vulcan would be better suited for looking after our veterans.

[andrewmcharlton]

Tombstone,

I don't think you will have to break into song, but if you do, can Ibe first to make a request, perhaps Freebird by those illustious aviators Lynyrd Skynyrd would be good.

[Tombstone]

T'would be a pleasure...

[Tim McLelland]

Really?
From your post in "Vulcan Aircrew?" thread, dated 24 Mar 06:
".....I think you'll find that my prophecy is correct, as I wrote "The Vulcan Story" years ago, and it's still recognised as the best (and certainly biggest) book on the subject, even though it's showing its age now (and the reprinted edition was ghastly!). The new book will be more than twice the size of that book, so I think the odds on anyone else producing anything better, are virtually zero, and this is why I want the new book to be as good as possible.
Okay, some small publishers will undoubtedly turn-out "monographs" or similar books, but large publishing companies just don't touch this kind of subject any more (wish they did!), so I think it's fair to say that the new book will be as good as it gets."
Modest as well, I see................

Yes really - I have no commercial interest in the Vulcan project whatsoever. If you'd like to check with my publisher, feel free to do so, okay?

Why do so many people seem to think these discussions are about trying to score points? Couldn't we just discuss this important project like adults?

[brickhistory]

Why do so many people seem to think these discussions are about trying to score points? Couldn't we just discuss this important project like adults?

And who will be speaking for you? :}

[Tim McLelland]

Tim,
Do you agree that the business plan for operating the Vulcan on the display circuit, as it stands, with or without the HLF, is totally unworkable? And TVOC have yet to show us otherwise?

To be brutally honest I don't know what conclusions to draw as yet. Personally, I think the whole project has been handled poorly and that TVOC are being far too guarded about explaining their actions. I think TVOC have got a great deal of explaining to do, but until I get straight answers to every question I throw at them all, I can't make a judgement, nor can anyone else in my opinion.

My point (which I keep trying to hammer-home, but my God it's hard work!) is that we can get back to TVOC's actions, plans for the future and so on, after the current crisis is over. If the cash shortfall isn't covered, Dr Pleming is quite clear that the Trust have decided to wrap-up the project at the end of this month. If that happens, there's really not much point in arguing about the saga any longer as we'll be discussing a useless hulk of metal, permanently stuck in a Leicestershire field.

I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage. I accept that there are no guarantees after that, but at least the project would have been completed, and if no sponsors then come forward, it really is the end of the matter. But at least we will have tried and we'll know for certain that projects of this nature just do not attract sufficient financial support. But who knows? Sponsors might well come forward when they can see what they're paying for. Or at the very worst, the aircraft might survive in another country. Either way, it's got to be better than allowing years of hard work and huge sums of money to be thrown-away at the last minute.

As I've said, there are no guarantees. The Vulcan's future might well be a short one but we've come so far... let's get the damned thing into the air and then we can start asking questions about the aircraft's future. If it doesn't fly it won't have a future, it's that simple.

[Mike51]

The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
The situation is certainly nothing of the kind.

Quite clearly, from VTS' own figures, it requires a further £1.2m to complete the rebuild and airtest it. Then a further £1.2m per season to operate.

So £2.4 million minimum by the end of next airshow season, say 13 months.

So what's the point of throwing another £250k into this black hole? Sorry, but it's just wasting more money on this untenable project. I repeat -

IT WILL COST A FURTHER £2.4M IN THE NEXT YEAR, BY VTS' OWN FIGURES.

Where do they think that the annual operating costs of £1.2m will come from? It will probably do a maximum of 10 shows or so per year, that means that they need to raise £120k for each appearance, more than the budget for bought-in display items for almost every show in the UK. It simply doesn't add up.

They admit that they've raised a total of only £40k in the last 3 months of the 'last chance' fundraising drive.

I feel sorry for those who have worked on a voluntary basis supporting this worthy dream for many years, and for those paid employees about to lose their jobs, but continuation of the project in the face of the vast funding gap that they're facing just makes no sense at all.

[Tim McLelland]

Here we go again... we've done all this over and over again.
Next year is next year. We're slightly more concerned about the next two weeks right now!

You can argue the figures until the proverbial cows come home. Dr. Pleming says they will wind-up the project unless they get the 250K. That's straight from him so that's the way it is. Everything else, all the different quoted figures, who said what, who did what, blah blah blah... these are not facts, just contradictory information from various sources. I'm sure we will get the truth sooner or later but is this the time to be arguing about the project? As far as I can determine, 250K is the amount of cash which TVOC regards as a "shortfall" without which they cannot continue. It would appear that any additional money over this figure is cash that they already expect to raise through their usual activities. But whatever the reality, the clear message is that the project ends this month without that cash.

Clearly, whatever figures turn-out to be the truthful ones, the aircraft is going to eat-up more cash as time goes on. But there are just two options; one is to continue putting cash into the project so that it can finally fly. There is then the possibility of getting proper sponsorship, setting-up a new engineering and support team, and hopefully a new operating base that doesn't eat-up £15,000 per week! It's a long shot but unless XH558 flies, how will we ever know?

The alternative is to say that enough is enough and that nearly three million pounds should be effectively thrown away on an aircraft which will be permanently grounded at Bruntingthorpe. I doubt (and so does TVOC) if donations are going to help one way or the other at this late stage - I think the only possible practical solution is for the HLF to step-in and increase their input. They have to live with the decision as to whether they should risk any more cash, or accept yet more public criticism for throwing away even more millions on a project that was never finished.

[Mike51]

Then I guess we'll have to agree to differ, then.

There are those of us who say "There's no viable way of funding the project, either in the short or long term, so enough is enough."

Then there are those who say "Let's not worry about the future viability, but let's just chuck another £250k at it regardless to keep it alive in the (very) short term in the hope of a miracle."

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
Perhaps on reflection you may be right, but
1. We have all heard it before...oh just another ££££££
2. It appears that you know more about it than most of us do, and yet you won't divilge it.
3. You have not answered any questions put you, not even the one about 'what happens next month?'
4. As even you agree, TVOC are being less than forthcoming, why is that?
5. It appears that TVOC are doing little (if anything) to sort out this mess
6. Most of us are getting bored with it.
Without serious answers to serious questions, you are not going to change the minds of those of us who don't think it will happen now.
TSM

[andrewmcharlton]

Tim,

Where has the blind optomism come from ? The strength of one email from the prviusly ever present Dr ?

Throwing money into this now without adequate planning, transparency and a realistic prospect of success (decide what that is for yourself but it isn't making one flight for me) is simply a false dawn and a waste of cash.

Banging on at the HLF I think will do no good. Look at the big picture. Can they afford to either create a precedent of bailing out plans that go pear shaped AND not giving that money to someone who has got a plan AND a real chance of sucess.

I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies. But in my heart of hearts, I would rather the lottery gave £250k to help someone cure a curable disease or help some disabled kids enjoy another Christmas than line the pockets of the trustees, the friends or consultants.

I hope it can be saved as much for the payment of salaries to those who have worked at the coal face for so long with so little attention unlike the illustrious leader who by all accounts is working from a control bunker (Gite) in the south (France) for safety.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ooo, I do hope it flies. I will cycle all the way to Marham for the event.

[Tim McLelland]

Tim,
Perhaps on reflection you may be right, but
1. We have all heard it before...oh just another ££££££
2. It appears that you know more about it than most of us do, and yet you won't divilge it.
3. You have not answered any questions put you, not even the one about 'what happens next month?'
4. As even you agree, TVOC are being less than forthcoming, why is that?
5. It appears that TVOC are doing little (if anything) to sort out this mess
6. Most of us are getting bored with it.
Without serious answers to serious questions, you are not going to change the minds of those of us who don't think it will happen now.
TSM

I don't know more about the project, I'm just basing my thoughts on the communications I've had, that's all.

I can't answer you as to what happens next month - there are lots of possibilities and TVOC say they don't rule anything out. But right now it's an academic matter if the project is stopped.

I don't know how much or how little TVOC are doing. From my viewpoint (and probably yours) I don't think they're doing much at all, but as I keep saying, this isn't the time to be asking, as it's a little too late.

As for changing minds, that's not my concern. I merely hoped that my input might encourage people to lobby their Lottery people, as it would seem that the only practical way of keeping this project alive until the flight stage, is with more help from the HLF.

[Tim McLelland]

[QUOTE=andrewmcharlton]Tim,
Where has the blind optomism come from ? The strength of one email from the prviusly ever present Dr ?

No blind optimisim, but more than one email. I couldn't be accused of optimism as I'm as saddened by this saga as anyone else. I just think it's worth trying to get the Lottery to help, otherwise the project is dead, and dead forever in all probability.

Throwing money into this now without adequate planning, transparency and a realistic prospect of success (decide what that is for yourself but it isn't making one flight for me) is simply a false dawn and a waste of cash.

Maybe so but what's the alternative? Allow 2.7 million quid and countless man-hours of work to be thrown away?


Banging on at the HLF I think will do no good. Look at the big picture. Can they afford to either create a precedent of bailing out plans that go pear shaped AND not giving that money to someone who has got a plan AND a real chance of sucess.
No, that's my point entirely. HLF can ensure that this project is a success by giving TVOC some more cash. If they don't, they stand accused of intentionally wasting more millions.


I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies. But in my heart of hearts, I would rather the lottery gave £250k to help someone cure a curable disease or help some disabled kids enjoy another Christmas than line the pockets of the trustees, the friends or consultants.

So do I, but as we know, Lottery money rarely goes on anything useful like health - it gets thrown at art projects, and other "life-enhancing" causes. So why should we be reluctant to demand that HLF give some of our Lottery money to the Vulcan project?

I hope it can be saved as much for the payment of salaries to those who have worked at the coal face for so long with so little attention unlike the illustrious leader who by all accounts is working from a control bunker (Gite) in the south (France) for safety

Nice sentiments, but I'd rather the workers not be laid-off and that they be permitted to finish what is already nearly 80 percent complete. I'm sure if you ask them, you'd find that this is what they want to do, regardless of the rights or wrongs of TVOC's management.
As for Pleming, he's not in France, he's in hospital.

[Tombstone]

I don't know more about the project, I'm just basing my thoughts on the communications I've had, that's all.

I can't answer you as to what happens next month - there are lots of possibilities and TVOC say they don't rule anything out. But right now it's an academic matter if the project is stopped.

I don't know how much or how little TVOC are doing. From my viewpoint (and probably yours) I don't think they're doing much at all, but as I keep saying, this isn't the time to be asking, as it's a little too late.

As for changing minds, that's not my concern. I merely hoped that my input might encourage people to lobby their Lottery people, as it would seem that the only practical way of keeping this project alive until the flight stage, is with more help from the HLF.

It strikes me that you don't really know an awful lot about this project, which is rather suprising for somebody with such a strong opinion on the matter.

[andrewmcharlton]

Tim,

I was referring to Felicity not Dr Pleming.

The HLF will not set a precedent, face it. Its not their fault that the money has evaporated and its all well and good saying they should give more cash etc, but then like all the other arguments, you'll need to use it again next month when there is unsufficient cash.

In simplistic terms, an airworthy V flew in to Bruntingthorpe and an 80% (at best) one can't fly out despite everyones best endeavours.

[iank]

Tim,

I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies.

Could we sell tickets and give the proceeds to the lad renovating the Sea Vixen at Bruntingthorpe?

Just a thought - I'll get my coat!

[andrewmcharlton]

What a fine idea !

Either that or I am hoping to renovate my garden incinerator as an Apollo rocket. I have lots of bits of scrap and I'm happy to form a trust fund and sell my services to it as well as generously provide space in my shed (at a modest rent), I will be relaxing, err planning the project, from my new Tahitian launch pad facility however.

[whitworth]

Andrew

you are misguided, Sir.

You are correct in your post that an airworthy V flew into Brunty. But, as soon as its wheels stopped, it was no longer airworthy! It was operating on a 6 FI extension, of which, 3.6 had already been used.

[andrewmcharlton]

Apologies, but you get my drift I suspect.

[A2QFI]

I can read what Tim and others are saying; in particular Tim says
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
With great respect to Tim and the support he is giving this project, "as far as I can determine" and "appears to be" aren't the sort of basis on which corporate sponsors are going to chip in or get involved, I don't think it is going to enlist new individual supporters nor will it encourage further donations from those who have already given. These phrases seem typical of the lack of clarity and information that this project has suffered recently.

[Amos Keeto]

Okay, exactly how much do they need to do what? There are THREE figures mentioned here, £1,000,000, '£250K' and £200K by the end of the month - so which of these figures is correct and what will that enable them to do:

1) Get it into the air for one flight to Duxford or
2) Allow it to fly for 10-15 years against all odds of increasing insurance and fuel costs, which are surely not going to be met by any air show organiser? Also, how many trained aircrew are going to be around to fly it?

It would be great if it was the latter, but there are an awful lot of optimistcs on here!:uhoh:

[A2QFI]

I can read what Tim and others are saying, on the other thread re Vulcan; in particular Tim says
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
With great respect to Tim and the support he is giving this project, "as far as I can determine" and "appears to be" aren't the sort of basis on which corporate sponsors are going to chip in or get involved, I don't think it is going to enlist new individual supporters nor will it encourage further donations from those who have already given. These phrases seem typical of the lack of clarity and information that this project has suffered recently.

[Tim McLelland]

It strikes me that you don't really know an awful lot about this project, which is rather suprising for somebody with such a strong opinion on the matter.

It's strikes me that you're a compulsive misery that has nothing of any value to say, other than that you think the project is a waste of time. I don't think you've actually added anything else to this matter, have you?


Anyhow, I assume from the last few threads that we've said all there is to say on the subject, as we're going over the same ground again and again now.

For anyone who still agrees that it's worth trying to save the project a little while longer, please either send-off the message for HLF that is on here and other sites, or contact HLF yourselves. We can but try.

[Tim McLelland]

I'm afraid any comments about this project have to be qualified to some degree, otherwise you know what happens - every smart a*se immediately sets-out to find information to the contrary, or simply contradicts what you say (point scoring seems to be a popular pastime on aviation forums), and frankly I don't want to waste time arguing for the sake of it. I have no idea of the real situation within TVOC - I can only base my views on the information I have and the questions I've asked.

Pleming says, quite specifically that they need 250K to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. That's the only "fact" that we now have, and that's the only fact that I'm keen to act upon. Exactly how the project proceeds after this is anybody's guess, but from what I have read and been told, it would seem that TVOC are confident that the rest of the money necessary to get the aircraft to flying condition will be found. Maybe they will find the money they need or maybe they'll just come back asking for more in due course, I don't know. I'm not TVOC's spokesman!

But as I keep saying, regardless of TVOC's rights and wrongs, what is the alternative? To say "okay, then the project ends now" basically - that's the only alternative on offer. Dump nearly three million quid, endless man hours and the hopes of thousands? Surely we can try, can't we?

I accept that fund raising is probably pointless now. I really can't see any other hope for the Vulcan other than the HLF. I think we have just one choice to make, between abandoning the project now (and never knowing if a complete, flying Vulcan would attract sponsorship or not), or persuading the HLF that after having spent so much, it would be complete folly not to spend a little bit more in order not to have wasted their original payment.

I don't need persuading that TVOC have turned this saga into a shambles, as that may well be the case - I don't know at the moment, but with three weeks left, I think we should do whatever we can to persuade the HLF that their money doesn't have to be wasted, regardless of whether you think the project has been a farce, or whether you think it's doomed to failure, etc.

[andrewmcharlton]

[QUOTE=Tim McLelland]
Pleming says, quite specifically that they need 250K to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. That's the only "fact" that we now have, and that's the only fact that I'm keen to act upon. QUOTE]

Tim, Why is Plemings statement a fact when the TVOC say £1m and various bits of their own PR quote wildly differing amounts ?

Why should HLF bale them out ? Its better to lose what they have done than a lorry load of more cash as well. You don't seem to grasp that unless the project is sustainable the same comments will come up month after month, do you expect HLF to carry on baling out until completion if TVOC can't keep their part of the bargain ?

[South Bound]

Don't know why we should be surprised, getting any British aircraft flying seems to cost at least twice as much as originally planned and is always someone else's fault rather than the group/company that signed the contract in the first place...

[Amos Keeto]

the rest of the money necessary to get the aircraft to flying condition will be found.


...under a bush?

If they can't find £250K by the end of the month, what chance do they have of 'finding' additional funding? If they haven't got a sponsor now, one is not suddenly going to jump out of the woodwork at the last minute?

[spekesoftly]

Tim, you're just confusing people. On the one hand you quote as 'fact' that £250k is required by the end of August, but admit that you're not TVOC's spokesman. TVOC's own website clearly states that:- "a million pounds are still needed before the end of August"
Surely you can see that such wildly differing statements adversely affect the credibility of any further appeal for funding? Now that you've managed to establish contact with Robert Pleming, perhaps you should ask him why the figure he's told you is only 1/4 of the sum quoted by TVOC.

[andrewmcharlton]

Notice it says..."may be possible". Even the most optomistic interpretations of the output from TVOC must be read with caution.

[Tombstone]

Tim,
the simple fact is last I'm a realist who knows that this project is coming to an end. There is no real momentum & a severe cash flow problem for which there is no obvious answer.

I'm certainly not a compulsive misery, I was simply commenting of the fact that your posts contain no concrete information infact, your estimation of what the project hopes to achieve with 250K contradicts much of what is said on the project's website.

I'm afraid you simply HAVE to look beyond the end of the month, as any organisation contemplating offering funds towards the project will. The horizon looks bleak, sad but true.

Don't take my attitude towards the project personally, after all you have stated that you have no commercial interest with the Vulcan. ;)

Don't fret, I'm sure your book will still sell many copies, I'll probably buy it myself! :ok:

[GonzoXL5]

I think that people should stop beating up Tim for the sake of it and just listen to the words he's saying :ugh:
The only options on the table at the moment are to either write to the HLF or to give up and accept that XH558 is destined for a premature visit to the scrap metal yard.
I don't believe TVOC have handled this well and neither does Tim but he doesn't want to see it end with the scrapman and neither do I, for that reason I sent off the letter he suggested to the HLF.

[The Rocket]

Having had a quick scan through your posts Mr Charlton, it seems that of all the forums and threads available to you on Pprune, the only ones you actually have any opinions on are the ones regarding XH558.

And 'Shock, Horror!!!!' every single post made by you denigrates the VTST, TVOC, and virtually anybody with anything to do with the project. Every post is a negative one, and it seems that you have little else to occupy your time, other than doing your darndest to scaremonger and turn people away from the project, and try as hard as you can to find any tiny snip of information posted by anyone, which you can contradict and try to make yourself look all clever:D

A quick look through your posts on some of the other aviation forums shows that this is the exact same thing as you have done everywhere else your stain of a presence has been noted.

It seems to me that you either have a terrible axe to grind with somebody or some aspect of the Vulcan project, or stand to gain in some way from it's failure.

Or could it simply be that you are in fact a troll with far too much time on his hands, with nothing at all interesting to say on any subject other than the one you seem to spend all of your time trying to put down:hmm:

[andrewmcharlton]

Rocket, how wide of the mark can you get.

The reason I post almost exclusively on the topic is because, if you have read my posts, you will see that as a donor I am not alone in any sense in wanting to know what the hell my money is being spent on.

I haven't denigrated everyone to do with the project at all. I like many others have been asking Felicity specifically both in posts on their web site and in emails directly for the same information as everyone else.

If you think that asking for a detailed action plan, full disclosure of the statutory acocunts and some answers to concerns raised by me and other donors is scaremongering and trying to turn people away from the project you are much mistaken. Its simply asking for what we should have been getting all along AND IS THE LEGAL OBLIGATION OF THE TRUSTEES. In case it escaped your notice I am not alone in calling for this.

I stand to gain in no way whatsoever from its success or failure I am simply a donor who cares passionately about it succeeding. I have openly advocated those in command standing aside to give others a run at it BEFORE it is too late if you bother to do your research. I have also criticised Felicity for a. not apparently being there and being on holiday (others posted this info) and for working on a multitude of other things and not 100% on this project. I haven't resorted to saying anything that others don't equaly hold as important and its based on publicly available information.

As for time, you must have plenty of it to go through posts on this and other forums and try to single out one person for your ire when many say the same things.

And for the record, I am still donating every month and have not stopped doing so despite the debacle.

[The Rocket]

Well,

For somebody who cares so passionately about this project succeeding, you do seem to be doing an awful lot of bellyaching and doomcasting. You say you wish the project to succeed, yet you seem to do your best to spread a creeping cancer of doubt and defeatism.

If you really do wish to find out financial information from the Trustees, which as you say, they are legally obligated to provide, do you really think that the best way to go about that is by moaning and sniping, and contradicting the pettiest of facts on every single aviation forum you can find? I think we both know that there are correct ways to go about obtaining such facts, and that you use this as a smokescreen for your actions.

I do not single out one person for my ire, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but when one person crops up day after day, constantly ramming his opinions down your throat, and seemingly popping up wherever he can and trying to ram his opinion down everybody else's throat, it is not hard to see why you have become tiresome.

We have all got opinions on this subject. We may well agree on many issues regarding the management of this project and other areas concerning it, however, there are times and places for spouting forth opinions like that. Personally I believe that at this moment, with the project in the situation it is, that this is neither the time, nor the place.

[andrewmcharlton]

You are miles out.

A cancer of defeatism !! Wake up !! They have issued redundancy notices and have run out of money, thats not my word, its theirs.

If the trustees don't provide the financial data to companies house for LAST YEAR how do you think we stand to get up to date information. What facts am I contradicting ? I would love you to be specific. As for every avitation forum I can find I think you will find I only ever posted on the TVOC own noticeboard and here. For 2 reasons, I hoped that they read their own website (which they seem to when it suits and not the rest of the time) and then they posted FAQ's in response to postings on PPRUNE and ignored their own web site. What other aviation web sites am I posting on ? The correct way to obtain facts is to ask the trustees and get the information given to you which so far they have failed to do in any sense, perhaps you can suggest how we get to see what the true financial position is, I would love to know, as they can't get their facts straight and consistently tell anyone what they need and by when.

As for opinions, its like TV, if you don't like them turn over.

If now isn't the time to question the management team and what is going on, tell me when is ?

[Winco]

Rocket,
Clearly you do not understand other peoples point of view here.
Mr Charlton, like everyone else, is entitled to his opinion and is clearly in the majority with his comments.
Nothing he has said is unfair or unwarranted, and in the main I agree entirely with him (and I am an ex Vulcan Operator myself) He has, and apparently is still, donating money to the project, so I think he has every right to question things and more importantly has the right to expect some answers!
I disagree completely on your point of "this is neither the time, nor the place" I believe strongly that now IS the time and the place to get some answers to the questions that people like Mr Charlton (and many others) are asking. Why do feel otherwise? And at what point would you be asking the questions, if at all?
The facts are non existant Rocket, and people are correct in not wanting throw good money after bad. Tim says its a quarter of a million £, Pleming says the same, their own web site says otherwise. Tim says that Pleming says, "things are not quite as bad" and yet their web site says otherwise, and the workers HAVE received redundancy notices.
Frankly, the project is a farce.
The Winco

[whitworth]

Mr Charlton, Winco

your constant defeatist attitude is becomming extremely tedious.

Whilst I may agree, partly, with your views on the way the project has been run, I agree more with the sentiments expressed by Rocket.

If the project does receive an inject of cash, how about you go to Bruntingthorpe and put your money where your mouths are....show them how the project SHOULD be managed. If you are unwilling to do this, then be quiet and let those who are willing, do it :*

[andrewmcharlton]

Ah yes the defeatist attitude which is solely based on reality.

I thought the idea was that the project was to be run by professionals like Pleming and Irwin who knew what they were doing ?

Forgive my foolish comments, I didn't think it could get more defeatist than redundancy notices, innaccurate information, no corporate sponsor and wildly varying forecasts.

I'm sure the trustees will tell us all about how things are going.

Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion ?

[whitworth]

Ah yes the defeatist attitude which is solely based on reality.

I thought the idea was that the project was to be run by professionals like Pleming and Irwin who knew what they were doing ?

Forgive my foolish comments, I didn't think it could get more defeatist than redundancy notices, innaccurate information, no corporate sponsor and wildly varying forecasts.

I'm sure the trustees will tell us all about how things are going.

Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion ?

GROW UP !! If you don't like it, get off your arse and do something about it, rather than bitch and moan :=

[andrewmcharlton]

and what the hell do you think I am doing ? trying to get some answers so that the whole thing can move forward not just sit and stagnate and rot on the jacks which is precisely what will happen if there aren't big changes.

I give as much as I can afford every month as well as buying and donating at air shows. Are you throwing money into their bottomless pit ? If not, why not ? If you are, don't you care what they are doing with it ?

[andrewmcharlton]

Tell you what, here's an offer :

I will write to Felicity tomorrow by email and by post and request a meeting at her earliest. If she is prepared to meet and answer questions, I will happily travel to meet her and ask any questions that any of the posters on this forum or donors wish to have asked.

I will post TVOC's answers verbatim here and happily give TVOC previous sight of any questions that people want asked, if they wish.

Apart from bearing any costs in meeting, I'll throw in an extra £100 as a gesture of goodwill for them taking the time to talk and answer the questions.

If anyone else wants to come, I'd gladly do that and if say 2 or 3 others were prepared to join me it would add to the impetus to get clarity.

If anyone wants to pose any questions, PM me. If anyone strongly objects to this, let me know.

If they refuse to talk or answer any questions, you will draw your own conclusions I am sure.

[GonzoXL5]

sounds like a good idea,

one question I think would be useful to know the answer to given the general skepticism about the financial viability of a resturn to display flight is :

What happens to 558 if the project folds in its current financial position ?

and as a supplementary

If the answer is then she'll be scrapped then whats the minimum needed to avoid that eventuality and return her to taxi-ing (assuming thats viable at all) ?

Perhaps then it might be interesting to talk about a plan B approach thats more positive than scrapping the aircraft but perhaps more financially possible than a return to flight ?

[flipflopman RB199]

Having read these boards and this thread for a while now, it does seem to me that the people who do most of the criticising and decrying of the Vulcan return to flight project are also in general the people who are making the most noise about it.

andrewmcharlton,

How do you expect to be taken seriously about being passionate about this project working when all you seem to do with your posts is moan, gripe, bitch and snip about it. If you can show me any comments that you have made that are in anyway supportive (besides your oft trotted out line of "I'd love to proved wrong and see it fly but........") I would genuinely be surprised.

You say in one of your posts that "If now isn't the time to question the management team and what is going on, tell me when is?" Perhaps that may be the case, but sniping on a public forum is not really questioning the management team is it? You appear to take small snippets from here and there and concoct your own conclusions, then pass it off as unquestionably true. Your comment of "Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion" says a lot about you. I wholeheartedly agree with Whitworth's reply to you. What are you donating for? So you can be a Martyr, or out of a genuine desire to see the aircraft fly again?

Winco,

I most certainly would not say andrewmcharlton is in the majority with his opinions and viewpoints. Perhaps if you consider yourself, The Swinging Monkey and him to be a majority, he may be. It would appear that little could be said to you to make you change what appear to be deep rooted beliefs about this project, but I would be interested to know your views on exactly what you feel is a complete farce about the programme, and how you, yourself would have operated and managed it so much better? They do say hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I am a little concerned that people feel the need to comment here with such vitriol, on a subject that they clearly know so little about. How many of you naysayers have actually taken the trouble to actually find out the current situation from the horses mouth, short of taking the rehashed "facts" from other peoples negative posts, and regurgitating them as indisputable facts. Granted, more could, and should probably have been done to keep the website up to date, as there is an awful lot of misinformation out there at the minute, but surely, if people are truly as concerned as they purpote to be, prior to unleashing yet another post about what an enormous waste of money and effort the project has been, a phonecall to TVOC, or a visit to the hangar would clear a lot of issues up.

Flipflopman

[Blacksheep]

I admit to being one of the naysayers, but my concerns are:
(a) That this airframe will be lost to posterity when this project comes to its inevitable conclusion and
(b) The enormous amounts of money that the project diverts from other worthy restoration and preservation projects.

Lets see now. There are 98 Air Displays on the 2006 calendar (that includes Farnborough and RIAT which are bi-annual events and the Mall flypast). £1.2m divided by 98 gives us £12,250 per appearance if the Vulcan appeared at every one. So we can probably count out events like the Sywell Chipmunk Fly-in, Woburn DH Moth Club Rally or the Dawlish Carnival and Airshow. For obvious reasons it might be a good idea to steer clear of the Ashton Park International Balloon Festival too!

So, we are left with at most 63 potential appearances - that's £20,000 pounds each on average. Some displays could certainly afford that and more, but most of the smaller ones would find it a struggle. Can airshow organisers really afford that much money to bring a Vulcan to their display? I personally don't know the answer, but has anybody in the VTTS produced the CBA? If so, where is it and if not, why not?

[Pontius Navigator]

Flipflop there are no doubt others who have not felt the urge to join the current round of skirmishing.

Blacksheep overlooked the overseas airshow circuit too. I would say it is a racing certainty that it would do the big European air shows but of course that all eats hours and drinks fuel.

RIAT is however annual.

[airsound]

Here's a suggestion, troops. Rather than merge the two threads, why not leave them as they are. Then that other one called 'Vulcan to the Sky - the End', with its negative connotations, could be for everyone who wants to whinge and generally beat themselves into a frazzle of self-righteous indignation about the way the whole project has been run. I’m thinking here of people like Winco, AndrewMCharlton and The Swinging Monkey, but not exclusively, you understand.

This thread, with its rather more upbeat idea of ‘Not Dead Yet’, might be for the people who actually think that there is still a last chance to make this whole thing succeed - and who feel that they shouldn’t give up yet.

I guess I know which thread I’m planning to read. That said, I’m not suggesting that the project isn’t in pretty dire straits - I know it is - but I am suggesting that Tim McClelland is right when he says “it's worth trying to save the project a little while longer..... We can but try.” Thanks for that, Tim.

airsound

[Winco]

airsound,
Thats a good idea, you keep this forum going and convince yourself that all will be OK, great. And let me say that I for one hope you are right.
However, the fact is that myself, Mr Charlton and Mr Monkey are being honest and realistic. I would suggest you are not!
The Winco

[PPRuNe Pop]

Not merging the threads goes against PPRuNe's rule of multiple threads. It is a waste of bandwidth.

The threads are now merged. Sorry.

PPP

[airsound]

PPP - OK, but can we have the positive title, and not the negative one please?

Winco - you mean 'honest and realistic' like Chamberlain and Halifax? As opposed to dogged but chancy, like Churchill and Dowding?

airsound

[whitworth]

Flipflop there are no doubt others who have not felt the urge to join the current round of skirmishing.

Blacksheep overlooked the overseas airshow circuit too. I would say it is a racing certainty that it would do the big European air shows but of course that all eats hours and drinks fuel.

RIAT is however annual.

How many aircraft, operating on a Permit To Fly, do you know of that can operate outside of UK airspace ( CAP 733, chapter 6, para 4)?

I suggest you do some reading before posting:*

[forget]

Operate outside of UK airspace? It can be done.

f) Permit to Fly: Any purpose, other than public transport or unless expressly permitted aerial work, specified on the Permit to Fly.
NOTE: The Air Navigation Order Article 8(2)(e) restricts an aircraft in the respect of which a Permit to Fly has been issued to flights beginning and ending in the United Kingdom. The CAA may consider granting an exemption under Article 127 from this part of the Order. Flights over or into another country by an aircraft in respect of which either a Special Category Certificate of Airworthiness or a Permit to Fly has been issued and, in the case of a Permit to Fly, an exemption has been granted, will normally require the permission of the Authority of that country.

[Pontius Navigator]

Whitworth, rather than trawl through what is a very depressing thread, I believe the permit to fly issue was put to death somewhat earlier.

Examples, and I do not know if they are actual PTF, are the Shackleton ferried across to the States and Sally B that goes in to Europe.

[Pontius Navigator]

How many aircraft, operating on a Permit To Fly, do you know of that can operate outside of UK airspace ( CAP 733, chapter 6, para 4)?

I suggest you do some reading before posting:*

These combatative type of responses are not conducive to reasoned debate.

[Gainesy]

A slightly different reply from the lottery folk, received overnight:

Dear Mr G
Thank you for your email. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust was awarded a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) grant of £2.73million in June 2004. This grant is for the restoration of the Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558, plans for it to fly for another 10-15 years and for it to be kept at the Imperial War Museum in Duxford. An accompanying education programme is also planned which will tell the story of the Cold War.
The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is doing a terrific job restoring the Vulcan Bomber and we have been impressed with their ability to stick to the proposed timetable for getting the aircraft up and running. However, the Trust has let us know that costs have escalated and it is having problems securing additional funding.


We are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward. Whilst we sympathise with their financial difficulties, it would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant.

Regards

Clare Henderson

Information Manager

Heritage Lottery Fund

Direct line: 020 7591 6044

[dwhcomputers]

So the HLF calls it a substantial award. The biggest mistake that the The Vulcan to the Sky Trust made would seem to be not asking for enough money from the HLF in the first place. When you see the size of the awards granted to some of the projects http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/Articles/Projectinfocus.htm
that have been made it palls into very small fry.
Ever visited the Tank Museum? Last year we drove past on a fine October afternoon to see no more than 20 to 30 cars in the car park. Added to this they receive substantial help from the MOD I quote “The minister was told how the MoD was already playing an important role in The Museums development plans. Jim Knight said; "The development scheme has been made possible by the generosity of The MoD. As landlords, they have guaranteed The Museum security of tenure for a peppercorn rent in an agreement saving The Museum several million pounds." http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/pr_ministersupportstankmuseum_040105.html
Add to this the very many museums etc that the Army still have on active bases all supported by their Regiments where do we go wrong?

[ACW599]

I've just received the 2006-7 RAeS lecture programme for our local branch. On 21 Sep 06 Dr Robert Pleming is giving the Strawford Lecture entitled 'Vulcan to the Sky'. The venue is the RAF Cosford Museum and the start time is 1900.

[GeeRam]

On 21 Sep 06 Dr Robert Pleming is giving the Strawford Lecture entitled 'Vulcan to the Sky'.

As this is after the deadline, so pressumably if the project has folded by then the lecture will be renamed 'Vulcan to the Skip'.....:E

How many aircraft, operating on a Permit To Fly, do you know of that can operate outside of UK airspace ( CAP 733, chapter 6, para 4)?

So, is the Red Bull sponsored Sea Vixen not on a PTF then, as that appears regularily at European airshows, as do some of the UK based Hunters, not to mention most of the warbirds in the TFC fleet.

[Tim McLelland]

I wonder if I might remind readers/posters that while this argument rolls along, the Vulcan project is still heading towards an untimely closure at the end of this month. Could we get our priorities sorted and look at ways of finding the team some more cash? As far as I know, there's only one possible solution and thats more help from HLF, so what are we going to do? Moan and gripe until the project closes down, or put some pressure on HLF to cough-up some more cash, so that we have a project to argue about?

[Pontius Navigator]

Tim, I think there is a message coming through from the various posts here. ffrom your POV I suspect the trend is negative.

[fly_high]

Maybe somebody can clarify this... if certain RAF aircraft are preserved in flying order, such as the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, why isn't the Vulcan included in some sort of Cold War Memorial Flight?

That way they could have RAF backing (and presumably some RAF funding), and it would be a way of preserving other aircraft of the era under the same project.

[DEL Mode]

Maybe the correct thing to do would be for the HLF to purchase the Hangar for the Nation to store historic aircraft in.

Then IF money can be found to return them to flight, and IF the CAA are willing to issue flight certification, there may be a project to continue.

[Pontius Navigator]

fly_high I believe it is simply down to cost. The RAF kept the Vulcan display going for about 2 years after the ac left service until it was out of fatigue.

I think the cost of the major servicing was IRO £1m at the time. BBMF OTOH has a significant amount of good will sponsorship and Spitfire bits are relatively easy to come by.

In addition to the simple operating cost, as a State aircraft, there would have been a significant cost associated with crew currency and groundcrew.

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe the correct thing to do would be for the HLF to purchase the Hangar for the Nation to store historic aircraft in.

Hangarage is certainly an issue but remember the aircraft is to be kept at Duxford where I don't think it would be an issue.

The present problem I suspect is associated with the transfer of the Vulcan, owned and housed by David Walton to the TVOC but where it has remained in his hangar.

Until he transfered the aircraft he would have planned on making money form its displays and thus offset the cost of hangarage in his accounts. As soon as the aircraft was transfered to the trust with its planned transfer to Duxford then his future profits would have disappeared. To the loss future profits would then be added the cost of hangarage. The only way to recoup costs was therefore to charge a commercial rent.

Or am I way off mark?

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by ATNotts on the Aviation History & Nostalgia Forum.
"Very sad that they cannot find a sponsor - but they would probably do better if they could offer a Vodafone, Coca Cola or other global brand a big logo on the tail in place of the RAF scheme!!
Trouble is today corporate Britain is inwilling to sponsor anything for its own sake - they want a tangible return and a Vulcan billboard (heaven forbid) would probably fit the bill!"
I agree ATNotts, but not just the tail why not on the whole of the aircraft. As an enthusiast of the Aviation History & Nostalgia Forum I know this must sound like sacrilege, but surely it must be possible to get a major branded company to sponsor the completion of the restoration of XH558 allowing them advertise their product in a similar fashion to Red Bull's Sea Vixen G-CVIX. Once the aircraft has a C of A should sponsorship diminish then it shouldn't be so expensive to keep it flying. At least we would once again see this magnificent aircraft in the air once again.
Mel

[Mike51]

Hangarage is certainly an issue but remember the aircraft is to be kept at Duxford where I don't think it would be an issue.
The (rather bizarre) plan is for the aircraft to be retired to Duxford when its flying days are finally over, not to be operated from there - the runway would be too short for regular Vulcan operations, other than a 'one-time' landing, for a start.

However, since Duxford already have a representative service Vulcan, about to be entombed in the new AirSpace building, nobody seems to have a satisfactory answer as to why they'd want another example. Especially one unrepresentative of a service airframe after all the mods have been made to put it on the CAA register. Least of all Duxford themselves, who were suitably vague when I emailed then asking this question a couple of years back. Bear in mind that Duxford have a history of scrapping unwanted duplicate airframes (Comet, Varsity) or ones which don't fit the latest collecting policy (Convair VT-29)

Added to which, once the permanent exhibition is installed in AirSpace, I don't think that Duxford have a hangar big enough for a Vulcan, so it will presumably be left outside.

The fact that the then-Director of Duxford is also a trustee of the Vulcan project is interesting. I wonder what the current Duxford Director thinks of the plan?

Still, it sadly looks as though any 'retirement planning' is somewhat premature, to say the least.

[green granite]

I think that the main thing is to get it flying again, if that were to mean that it is painted in corporate colours with their name spread out across the underneath then so be it, a shame maybe but better than the knackers yard

[Pontius Navigator]

Thank for the correct Mike. Two words spring to mind, one begins with M and the other B but not necessarily in that order.:(

[GeeRam]

Maybe somebody can clarify this... if certain RAF aircraft are preserved in flying order, such as the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, why isn't the Vulcan included in some sort of Cold War Memorial Flight?

That way they could have RAF backing (and presumably some RAF funding), and it would be a way of preserving other aircraft of the era under the same project.

As I recall, hopefully correctly, the RAF Vulcan Display Flight operated for close to 10 years after the RAF ceased operational flying of the Vulcans.

In 1993, '558 was needing the major which it's now undergoing and the cost of which, surprise, surprise ;) the MOD wasn't prepared to stump up for, but cited also as a reason for ending flying was the iminent withdrawl of the Victors from service and thereby the infrastructure to safely support the continued operation of a V-bomber wouldn't be there anymore.

[Tim McLelland]

I think that the main thing is to get it flying again, if that were to mean that it is painted in corporate colours with their name spread out across the underneath then so be it, a shame maybe but better than the knackers yard

Exactly - I know I'm repeating myself but going-off at tangents at this stage is just counter productive.
If you care to look at Airscene this week, there's a feature on the saga and an easy-to-send message to HLF. If enough people send it, and pass it on to all their friends, it might just be sufficient pressure to influence HLF's negotiations with TVOC. Gotta be worth a try as there's no other option on the horizon.

As for the corporate colours business, I believe it's not even a viable option now that HLF have stepped-in. Part of the business plan is that the aircraft be shown around the country as a Cold War relic - so Red Bull colours would be a little inappropriate! The fact that HLF have stepped-in only serves to underline how they have at least a moral responsibility to see the project through to flight.

[possel]

Maybe somebody can clarify this... if certain RAF aircraft are preserved in flying order, such as the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, why isn't the Vulcan included in some sort of Cold War Memorial Flight?

That way they could have RAF backing (and presumably some RAF funding), and it would be a way of preserving other aircraft of the era under the same project.

The BBMF is meant to be a nil cost exercise - we all know it isn't - but hiding the high costs of a Vulcan are beyond the ability of anyone!

It was hard enough getting funds for in-service aircraft mods etc, and I for one resented the money being spent on historical aircraft (OK, good PR exercise etc). There is NO reason why the RAF should pay for anything for the Vulcan.

In fact, with so many private warbirds in the sky these days, the BBMF itself could be sold off now, couldn't it? (Takes cover...)

[Tim McLelland]

The RAF can barely manage to fund the BBMF and Reds at the moment. I was reliably informed that the Vulcan used more fuel to get to the end of the runway than the BBMF consumed for a full display.

[madbadrob]

The BBMF aircraft are not owned by the RAF or MOD but leased to them, so the costs there can be if need be passed back to their owners.

As for the Vulcan whilst it would be amazing to see it flying again I don't see how we can expect the HLF to keep dipping into the pot. THat said though some of the projects they and other lottery agencies have paid out have been diabolical. 50m for the opera house in London for example comes to mind.

How many aviation enthusiasts are there? Why can't we all dip in to our pockets and donate a tenner each I am sure that would be a big step towards the 250k

Rob

[Tim McLelland]

The BBMF aircraft are not owned by the RAF or MOD but leased to them, so the costs there can be if need be passed back to their owners.



Where has that nugget of information come from?

[XL319]

TWo problems arise - is there a hanger big enough at Duxford and also is the runway long enough for the Vulcan to take off and land? If so i would imagine they would need new brakes every trip

[madbadrob]

Where has that nugget of information come from?
From the guys who fly it. From those who have had anything to do with the BBMF.

Rob

[madbadrob]

I was just looking at the AHB of the RAF and would you believe they have a vulcan on their home page. Why can't these guys help? Why then cant the Vulcan be a part of the BBMF as the Dakota as been amongst the usual planes? Maybe stick a harrier with it and a Tornado Jaguar and call is the Battle of the Falklands flight?

Rob

[possel]

From the guys who fly it. From those who have had anything to do with the BBMF.

Rob

Well, the BBMF aircraft certainly used to be owned by the MOD (pre 91). When did they sell them, how much did the MOD get for the fleet and who are the owners now?

[possel]

I was just looking at the AHB of the RAF and would you believe they have a vulcan on their home page. Why can't these guys help? Why then cant the Vulcan be a part of the BBMF as the Dakota as been amongst the usual planes? Maybe stick a harrier with it and a Tornado Jaguar and call is the Battle of the Falklands flight?

Rob

Dunno what part of the services you were/are with, but justifying the use of public money comes to mind as a good reason not to do this!

I worked on Vulcans and Harriers, and neither are cheap, even just for normal maintenance. Then when they need airframe repairs (corrosion, cracking etc) you start writing big cheques.

[madbadrob]

Dunno what part of the services you were/are with, but justifying the use of public money comes to mind as a good reason not to do this!

I worked on Vulcans and Harriers, and neither are cheap, even just for normal maintenance. Then when they need airframe repairs (corrosion, cracking etc) you start writing big cheques.

Actually neither. Just an ex air cadet who managed to get a flight in the late 1980's in the lancaster. The info was given to me by a flight Lieutenant at the 2005 Waddo airshow.

Rob

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

Tim, I think there is a message coming through from the various posts here. ffrom your POV I suspect the trend is negative.

Only on these forums. Step out side of your door for a few minutes and you tend to find much more positivity. There is something stifling to the soul about forum lurking.

If you want the Vulcan project to succeed I should return to the real World and continue spreading the word! Far better than lurking and regurgitating the same rubbish on here.

My flying club is pooling together cash for the VTTS Club pledges.

Any other clubs giving it a go?

[GeeRam]

The BBMF aircraft are not owned by the RAF or MOD but leased to them, so the costs there can be if need be passed back to their owners.


That's the funniest thing I've read on here for ages.............:p

[WebPilot]

From the guys who fly it. From those who have had anything to do with the BBMF.
Rob

Absolute tosh. The aircraft are the property of the RAF/MoD. They are not leased. I know a member of the BBMF posts on another forum so have asked the question there.

[GeeRam]

Well, the BBMF aircraft certainly used to be owned by the MOD (pre 91). When did they sell them, how much did the MOD get for the fleet and who are the owners now?
They still are on charge, always have been (apart from PZ and AB that were of course donated to the flight by the manufacturers)
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.

[WebPilot]

They still are on charge, always have been.
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.

Exactly. It's been pointed out that none of the BBMF aircraft appear on the civil register (unlike the ex-BBMF Spitfire XIX PS853 which is now G-RRGN on the civil register). QED.

[Pontius Navigator]

Only on these forums. Step out side of your door for a few minutes and you tend to find much more positivity. There is something stifling to the soul about forum lurking.
If you want the Vulcan project to succeed I should return to the real World and continue spreading the word! Far better than lurking and regurgitating the same rubbish on here.
My flying club is pooling together cash for the VTTS Club pledges.
Any other clubs giving it a go?

If you are right then there is plenty of hope yet. Well done.

[andrewmcharlton]

Gents (and any Ladies)
As per promised in previous posts, I wrote to Felicity Irwin with some questions and here are the unedited questions and responses :
Q - How much money is required to achieve the following milestones, and by when ?
A -
ROLL OUT £250,000
FIRST TEST FLIGHT £750,000
FULL TEST PROGRAMME £500,000 to DISPLAY FLIGHT June 17th and possibly 2007 air shows.
Annual Display season approx £1M
These are based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections.
Q - What contingency plans do the Trustees have if the trust fails to meet a deadline and or milestone due to lack of funding ?
A - The Trustees will be bitterly disappointed should the project have to cease and will do their utmost to ensure that XH558 is in the best condition possible to be displayed to the general public. This remains dependant on further funding and the Heritage Lottery Fund but should also be taken in context that XH558 is in better condition than she was when purchased by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust in February 2005.
Q -What is the current level of interest being shown by prospective commercial sponsors who are of sufficient magnitude to get the project on track again ?
A - Commercial sponsors have been sought throughout the project but it was always considered likely that until the majority of the restoration was completed and a sponsor could feel confident of the technical probability of flight, they may not commit. 'Roll Out' planned for August 31st is hoped to bring forth such a sponsor but sadly the Trustees have had to issue notices of termination to the workforce for the end of August in case such monies are not forthcoming by that date.
Q - How many full time or part time employees will remain with the trust after the lay offs which were recently announced, are effected, if they are effected.
A - There are likely to be 3 employees plus a possible number of volunteers available to VTST after August 31st should the termination be effected.
Q - What level of support and flexibility are current contractors showing other than extending normal credit terms etc ?
A - Support is good to achieve 'rollout' as everyone concerned has always known the nature of the project and its dependence on voluntary contribution.
Q - Why are the statutory accounts not yet filed and showing as overdue at Companies House ?
A - The accounts are filed at Companies House. They are on the website under financial update. They were delayed because the Trustees had to give lengthy consideration to the statement regarding the business as a 'going concern'. Which they ultimately felt unable to do.
Q - Do the trust still need £250,000 from today or has part been raised so far ?
A -No some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward.
Q - How much are current donations running at per month, on average ?
A - That varies according to whether or not a newsletter has just gone to the donor base or there has been media activity. £10,000 is slow, £50,000 is good. We have enjoyed both and almost nothing in some months over the five years.
As promised, I sent them a cheque today for £100 as a thank you for them taking the time to answer the questions.

[forget]

‘Roll out £250,000, First test flight £750,000, Full test programme £500,000. Annual display season approx £1M. These are based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace projections’.

These numbers, without a breakdown of what is being spent on what, are meaningless and I’m very surprised that Marshall’s has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation.

As I understand it, HLF funds are public funds. Are the spenders of these funds not legally obliged to provide the public with detailed information on their financial activities. I’ve thought for some time that certain players have been using 558 simply as a nice little earner. The longer the public is kept in the dark on these huge numbers the more convinced I become that I’m right.

[Mike51]

"ROLL OUT £250,000
FIRST TEST FLIGHT £750,000
FULL TEST PROGRAMME £500,000"

So the cost to get it to its first display has now risen to an additional £1.5m, over and above the money already spent.

I get the feeling that it may as well be £150m.

[whitworth]

Mr Charlton, my hat's off to you, sir. :D

Hopefully, now the information that people have , apparantly, been clamouring for is available, the moaning and sniping will stop and we can concentrate our efforts on raising the money required for the project to continue.

Forget.

Are you never satisfied?

Do you seriously expect Marshall to enter into discussion about this on a forum?

The information you so desperately desire is in the public domain, as posted by Mr Charlton: A - The accounts are filed at Companies House. They are on the website under financial update. They were delayed because the Trustees had to give lengthy consideration to the statement regarding the business as a 'going concern'. Which they ultimately felt unable to do.

I fear you may be sailing very close to the wind with your insinuations! :=

[andrewmcharlton]

Just to clarify the accounts situation, the accounts now filed, in the last few days I believe, are for the period up to July 31st 2005, not 2006. They are not due to be filed for some considerable time. So make your own mind up about how helpful or unhelpful that is.

[Tim McLelland]

I'm not even sure what the point of all this is? There's no news here - all of this information has been mentioned at length before both here and elsewhere.

As I keep saying (presumably in vain!) could we not be exploring what (if anything) can be done while there's still time, or are we just going to go round in ever decreasing circles?

Unless anyone can suggest anything to the contrary, I still think that the HLF is the only practical way out of this problem, and if that is the case, shouldn't we be thinking how we might persuade them to cough-up some more cash?

[Tim McLelland]

Actually neither. Just an ex air cadet who managed to get a flight in the late 1980's in the lancaster. The info was given to me by a flight Lieutenant at the 2005 Waddo airshow.
Rob

Important lesson - never believe anything you hear at air shows;)

[flipflopman RB199]

amdrewmcharlton,

I echo Whitworth's sentiments, and also take my hat off to you. :ok:

May I respectfully ask however, what is it you are hoping to find in a detailed financial breakdown? Would you be able, in any way, to relate to or identify any of the figures on the paper, or any of the companies or services listed?

I think not. Rather I feel you wish to stumble upon an entry listed

"Bank of Switzerland, account no 123456, Deposit £1,000,000"

Where exactly would all of this lead you, and what could you possibly wish to gain? Do you not feel that the HLF will have gone over every single penny going in, and coming out, and ensured all was legit and above board, before commiting themselves to awarding a grant? Unfortunately, it was widely hoped that a sponsor would be on board now, to allow access to the next stage of the HLF grant. The grant was awarded on a 65/35% basis, with the VOC needing to raise set amounts, to release the next batch of funding. Without a sponsor now, obviously this puts the onus on fundraising to raise the cash.

As Tim Mc Lelland has stated from his conversations with Dr Pleming, the £250,000 is the figure that needs concentrating on at this moment in time, as this will allow us to show to the public, and any potential sponsors, just what has been achieved, and how very close to aircraft is to it's completion. A vast amount of work has been carried out on the aircraft, and although there is still more to do, the major work has been done, and the completion is within sight. With a very real aircraft sat there, and not a stripped hulk on jacks, there is a very real possibility an investor may see potential, and something worthwhile to put money into. This may not be the case at all, but I know that personally I would be far more inclined to believe in and sponsor an aircraft I can see is pretty much complete and potentially airworthy, than one stripped and currently undergoing major maintenance, as I would imagine you would too.
Clearly, flight testing will require more money, but with backing and investors on board, this will obviously become much less of an issue. The major hurdle facing us now and threatening this magnificent aircraft, is raising in whichever way possible, the £250,000 so desperately needed.

Let's not bicker and snipe at this stage, the project can still very much be saved, and future generations can experience the sights and sounds of what is in my view, one of the greatest aircraft of all time. It would be a tragedy to waste millions of pounds, and thousands of manhours on a project that is so close to the finish line.

[andrewmcharlton]

flipflopman,

I wasn't expecting to or hoping to discover anything of the sort. I am not suggesting any type of financial impropriety at all at any level at any time.

The issue was, where are we really at ? What has / hasn't been done ? What are the reallistic prospects of success ? Why isn't the information about the finances and progress etc given out as a matter of course etc, just wanting clarity and transparency and thankfully now we have it.

The point about accounts being filed was just a highlight that if the statutory obligations weren't being met it doesn't bode well for other aspects.

Anyhoo, we have the information from the horses mouth, I continue to donate and will do so ad infinitum and reservations of criticisms aside on the way the project is run, I hope it succeeds and I hope a few more pennies are raised due to them finally being open and letting us in on what the state of play is. Good luck to them.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim

I think here lies our answer, and hopefully yours also...........
"some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"

The fact that ANOTHER quarter of a million will NOT restart this project should be pretty clear, even to you Sir, that this is all but finished.
As FI says, "it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"[/ and that aint gonner happen!!
Kind regards
TSM

[dwhcomputers]

Is it perhaps the time to go for bust. Spend what is needed for an advert on a TV commercial. You never know!

[forget]

Whitworth, Where did I suggest that Marshall ‘enter into discussion about (558) on a forum?’ I did say - I’m very surprised that Marshall has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation. Do you see the not so subtle difference?

I would guess that you have, at the very least, ‘affiliations’ with Marshall. As an example of what I’ve suggested, perhaps you could supply a breakdown of the £750,000 required for the ‘First Test Flight’, a figure based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections. Without explanation, £750,000 for a test flight makes no sense at all.

Thank you for your observation that I ‘may be sailing very close to the wind with my insinuations’. I’m probably long enough in the tooth to handle that; and to recognise when a raw nerve has been prodded.

[andrewmcharlton]

DWH, Take a look at page 22 of this and you'll see that running adverts on TV is a touch on the cost prohibitive side, they'd be lucky to even pay for the ad let alone the production costs.

http://www.itvsales.com/itv/export/download/pdf/how_to_advertise_with_ITV.pdf

[South Bound]

Crikey guys, why should an organisation break down its costs to the public. Surely the Vulcan peeps had appropriate information upon which to base the decision to accept the quote? If not, they should have had. We do not need to know how industry justify the cost, only that the quotes have been accepted. I am not a fan of the British aviation industry in any way, but the commercial decisions have been made, it is not their problem.

[andrewmcharlton]

South Bound,

I think in most commercial and private arrangements nobody would argue with you, but as its a charitable trust there are arguements for disclosure.

[South Bound]

Unfortunately, when charities go to commercial organisations and ask them to quote for a job and subsequently accept that quote, it is grossly unfair for everyone to jump up and down about it later claiming that the price should be lowered because of the charity status. I am not saying that the price is or is not reasonable, just that someone accepted that price and it is their responsibility to find the money.

[flipflopman RB199]

Thanks once again for your overwhelmingly constructive input, The Swinging Monkey.

I would try and see things from your point of view, but I don't think my head would fit up your a****ole too.


andrewmcharlton,

The issue was, where are we really at ? What has / hasn't been done ? What are the reallistic prospects of success

Can I suggest a visit to Brunty? There is a hangar full of engineers there who would be delighted to fill you in on the current status of the aircraft, what has been done, and what is left to do. It would also allow you to see for yourself, the aircraft state and work completed, and also give you more information with which to base your posts, and possibly a little more faith:ok:


Flipflopman

[Tim McLelland]

Tim
I think here lies our answer, and hopefully yours also...........
"some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"
The fact that ANOTHER quarter of a million will NOT restart this project should be pretty clear, even to you Sir, that this is all but finished.
As FI says, "it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"[/ and that aint gonner happen!!
Kind regards
TSM

Although she's not saying anything that we didn't already know, thery're in the usual state of confusion it seems. Patently, the 250K will allow the project to continue - that's the whole point. It won't get the aircraft to flight status, but Pleming seems confident that the rest of the money can be found. As ever, you get at least four different versions of the same story, depending on where it comes from. But as I say, it's pointless to waste time on this aspect of the story right now, as without the 250k the project will stop in any case.

[Winco]

Flipflopman,

For christ's sake man, grow up and stop displaying your ignorance by making abusive comments to those who do not agree with you.

The comments made by the Monkey chap were NOT constructive, but they did show that this project does NOT need a quarter of a million as believed by Tim and others, but needs £1,000,000 to proceed.

There is nothing ambiguous about Ms Irwins comments, it is there in very simple black and white for all to read, and unless the project gets its £1m, then it is NOT going anywhere (unless of course, she has got it wrong, in which case.......)

Now, on the basis of that comment from the TVOC spkesperson, do you still think its worth throwing more money at it until we have a definitive plan?? I still think not Sir.

As for fitting your head up anyones backside, remember one thing........you have got to get it out of your own first!

The Winco

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
Am I really the only one here misreading what FI says, or do you know something that the rest of us don't?

She says 'The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward'

You say 'the 250K will allow the project to continue'

Which one of you is correct Tim? is it you or is it FI?

And you wonder why people are confused? pheww!
Kind regards
TSM

[The Swinging Monkey]

flopperman,
Your comments do little for your cause Sir, except show you as a fool having to resort to personal insults. Try opening your eyes, and maybe you will see things in a slightly different light as well as other peoples' point of view.
TSM

[forget]

:{ :{ WHAT….IS...THE…..MONEY….NEEDED…FOR?

Roll Out - £250,000.
First Test Flight - £750,000.
Full Test Programme - £500,000.

……….doesn’t work for me - and certainly won’t work for any onlooker with a healthy cheque book to hand.

[Tim McLelland]

Tim,
Am I really the only one here misreading what FI says, or do you know something that the rest of us don't?
She says 'The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward'
You say 'the 250K will allow the project to continue'
Which one of you is correct Tim? is it you or is it FI?
And you wonder why people are confused? pheww!
Kind regards
TSM

I don't know what you want me to say - I've explained my view more than enough times. Everyone seems to be confused but (as I keep saying) Pleming says quite specifically that unless they get 250k in two weeks or so, the project will be stopped. That's the only "hard fact" I've determined. The rest is open to question; Pleming seems to suggest that the rest of the money should be achieveable, but maybe he's being optimistic, I don't know. Felicity Irwin seems to be basing her comments on the broader information given on their web site, and although she's correct in saying that more cash is needed to finish the project, the point I've been trying to emphasise is that this is another matter entirely. The short-term point is that the project goes no further without the 250k, at least according to Pleming.

But once more, I can only say that regardless of all these tangents that we can go-off on, there seems to be only one practical route to follow - it's a straight choice between abandoning the project, or making an all-out effort to get the HLF to bail-out the project, at least until the flight stage. My inclination is to opt for the latter for the reason I've stated many times previously.

Clearly, we can argue about the rights and wrongs of the project forever, but what is the point? If it cannot go any further in two weeks from now, I don't really care about who did what and why, because it will be entirely academic once the project stops. Logically, the only way that the project can continue, and all the money and effort be saved, is for the HLF to stump-up enough cash (whatever the real figure may be) to get the aircraft to flight status. Then and only then, can TVOC (or whoever might follow-on from them!) can see once and for all, whether a sponsor can be found to keep the aircraft flying. If no sponsor is found, then by all means deliver the aircraft to Duxford (or preferably to someone overseas who might be able to fly it) and end the project then. But right now, at this stage, it would just be a complete waste of money and effort to bail-out at the last minute.

[flipflopman RB199]

Winco, TSM,
Perhaps I am an ignorant fool, I wasn't under the impression you would take that comment so very seriously as such a scathing personal insult.:rolleyes:

My point is, it seems to me that you infact have an inabiltity to see things from a different perspective. You appear to have made up your mind about the project, and feel so sure you are armed with bulletproof facts you cannot possibly be wrong in any way. I can in some ways see why you have taken such a negative stance, but not why you are unprepared to see things from others point of view, or at least attempt to find out more for yourselves, to give you a better idea of the situation and some facts rather than opinion, on which to base your posts.

My eyes are most certainly open, and I am of the firm belief that this project can go on and succeed. I would strongly urge you to visit the hangar, or in the very least contact TVOC before writing this project off completely.

Flipflopman

[possel]

They still are on charge, always have been (apart from PZ and AB that were of course donated to the flight by the manufacturers)
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.

I know this is thread drift, but for the record LF363 was a complete wreck after it cartwheeled across the runway, with no wings left, the tube rear frame broken and twisted, the engine ripped off and a fire between the engine and cockpit, through the bulkhead. I was there!

[andrewmcharlton]

Flipflop,

I have no beef whatsoever with the guys in the hangar at all, I commend them entirely and know it must be very difficult for them right now, they have all of our best wishes I am sure.

I know that everyone wants to see it succeed but realism has to bite at some point. The campaign director herself says that without £1m the project will not go forward.

£250k isn't enough. Her own remarks also make it clear that £50k is a good month for fundraising and with some 20 days to go to decision day, surely someone has to question the best way forward.

They seem to suggest that they hope for a commercial sponsor to step in once roll out occurs but frankly if they aren't in negotiations with a sponsor today that is simply not going to happen. Even sponsors will want assurances and guarantees and it isn't clear one way or the other that any could be given. Commercial sponsorships aren't a case of here's a cheque off you go, they are complex legal relationships with onerous conditions invariably and would take a serious amount of time to conclude.

[whitworth]

Whitworth, Where did I suggest that Marshall ‘enter into discussion about (558) on a forum?’ I did say - I’m very surprised that Marshall has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation. Do you see the not so subtle difference?

I would guess that you have, at the very least, ‘affiliations’ with Marshall. As an example of what I’ve suggested, perhaps you could supply a breakdown of the £750,000 required for the ‘First Test Flight’, a figure based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections. Without explanation, £750,000 for a test flight makes no sense at all.

Thank you for your observation that I ‘may be sailing very close to the wind with my insinuations’. I’m probably long enough in the tooth to handle that; and to recognise when a raw nerve has been prodded.

And why would you think that Marshall have any interest in what is posted on this forum?

As for my 'affiliation' with Marshall - guess again ! Another one of your conclusions jumped into with both feet.

It is my understanding that there will be a series of test flights, not just one. I suppose the figure of £750000 will go someway to paying for the time of those members of the winged master race conducting the flights.

[forget]

From Whitworth. 'And why would you think that Marshall have any interest in what is posted on this forum?

Nail on the head - In one:suspect:

And 'As for my 'affiliation' with Marshall - guess again ! Another one of your conclusions jumped into with both feet'.

And since when was a guess a conclusion? (I'm staying with my guess.)

[ZH-127]

Added my name to the list.

Hopefully this will work.

[GeeRam]

I know this is thread drift, but for the record LF363 was a complete wreck after it cartwheeled across the runway, with no wings left, the tube rear frame broken and twisted, the engine ripped off and a fire between the engine and cockpit, through the bulkhead. I was there!

Those that saw LF afterwards don't doubt it was in less than pristine condition, that's why one of the PR.XIX's was sold to fund her rebuild.
Al Martin was indeed lucky to escape with only a bu99ered ankle if memory serves me right.......still did bloody well getting her down in a some semblence of one piece as it was. :ok:
Just looked at a photo of her sitting charred on the runway and wings are definately still attached, outer sections only looking a bit 'cattled'...
I seem to remember reading an article on the rebuild saying that structurally she was a lot better than she looked.....

[ZH-127]

Well, i wrote to HLF expressing my concerns.. this is the reply i got:

Thank you for your email. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust was awarded a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) grant of £2.73million in June 2004. This grant is for the restoration of the Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558, plans for it to fly for another 10-15 years and for it to be kept at the Imperial War Museum in Duxford. An accompanying education programme is also planned which will tell the story of the Cold War.

The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is doing a terrific job restoring the Vulcan Bomber and we have been impressed with their ability to stick to the proposed timetable for getting the aircraft up and running. However, the Trust has let us know that costs have escalated and it is having problems securing additional funding.

We are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward. Whilst we sympathise with their financial difficulties, it would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant.

Doesnt look like they will be funding it... :mad:

[whitworth]

Nail on the head - In one:suspect:


???

[ZH-127]

Nail on the head - In one:suspect:


???


The project needs a further £250k by the end of August 06 to continue. If it doesnt, the project stops.

There's a petition going with HLF to try to secure more funding.

Ive emailed HLF adding my name to the list and they wrote back saying that they wont be supporting the project any further as they have already donated £2M+ to the trust.

[ExAvio]

So from the horse's mouth:

"would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant."

Then why have they donated the following to the activities at Duxford:

£6,500,000 for the American Air Museum
£314,500 for the Duxford Aviation Society
£9,500,000 for the Airspace Project

Surely this could be classed as additional funding for the one "location".

Interestingly enough, the only "Private" organisation, DAS, got the smallest grant......

BUT THE IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM, WHICH IS OWNED BY THE STATE / GOVERNMENT / PEOPLE GOT A TOTAL OF £16,000,000!!!!!

And to add further insult to injury, the Brighton West Pier has bee awarded 4 Grants totalling £13,557,600! Why can HLF award "additional funding" to some but not others?

I will question HLF on these matters when I write to them.

[Tim McLelland]

Good man - somebody doing something useful instead of arguing about irrelevant stuff:D

[The Rocket]

Ive emailed HLF adding my name to the list and they wrote back saying that they wont be supporting the project any further as they have already donated £2M+ to the trust

Steady on old chap. This letter seems to be the routine reply letter they are trotting out. It is, however, a little more hopeful than the first one which stated that they "Would be unable"
At least now they only feel it unlikely!! ;)

Winco,

Why did you feel the need to leap so valiantly to The Swinging Monkey's aid there? Is it because flipflopchap's belief differ from yourself and The Monkey's? As I see it, you're being a little hypocritical. Either you condemn flipflopmans 'abusive comments' and remain beyond reproach yourself, or you lower yourself to his despicable level:rolleyes: and engage in insults yourself. You can't really have it both ways old chap.

Come on fellas, let's at least have one last crack of the whip, and get behind this. The company producing the commemorative vino for the project, have opened a new site, here (http://www.ewines4u.co.uk) which is a regular wine store, but is giving 100% of the profits to the Vulcan project. So you can donate, without really donating.

[Winco]

Rocket,
It's not a case of leaping to anyones defence - I'm sure that the monkey and all of the others can stand up for themselves. But clearly, flipflop feels it necessary to make comments that are unwarranted IMHO simply because he cannot see other peoples point of view.

Listen, the efforts of Tim and others are extremely commendable, and to a point I admire them. I still very much hope that it all comes good, but I think that they have become blinkered and obsessed with this figure of 'just another quarter of a million' The fact is that it needs a great deal more than a quarter of a million pounds even to keep it going, and that's from TVOC figures, FI and others, including Pleming.

Tim says that Pleming 'seems confident that the rest of the money can be found' well that is great and I am delighted. But why dosen't he tell us where it's coming from ?
Why are their such serious doubts at Brunters, and why have people been made redundant if Pleming is confident? It doen't make sense I'm afraid.
Pleming is confident is he? Why? Does he know something that he isn't letting on to us ? Is he going to come good at the 12th hour with something he's got up his sleeve?

These are the problems that I have with this project, this total inability to tell us the truth about things ie the exact amount(s) needed, and by what date(s) etc.

I'm sorry, but until someone like Pleming has the courage to come onto a website like this or go public with the FACTS, then I am not going to throw any more money into this bottomless money pit, and if that offends others, then I shall refrain from posting on this topic again.

The Winco

[andrewmcharlton]

Like it or lump it Winco is right.

Even FI's figures (she is the project director) are saying that £250k just gets it out the hangar and it needs £1m in pledges to continue. Reallistically where is that going to appear from ?

Its a case now of Sh*t or get off the pot for the whole project sadly. If they can raise the £250k but not the rest, that money is best spent on preservation that gives the project a hope of resurrection. If they roll it out with £250k but no more to follow where will the money come from to mothball it professionally ?

I am not an engineer and doubtless others will know the ins and outs, but does anyone know what would need to be done to protect the project properly if that had to be done ? What kind of money are we talking for the engineering element (forget the rent bill for now) ?

If the trust became insolvent, which is a real prospect, I would be interested to know (wearing my lawyers hat) what claims or liens the Waltons might have over the aircraft for rent ? They may end up acquiring it back in lieu of rent if appropriate legal safeguards are not currently in place, a worrying thought or not ?

[DEL Mode]

Having observed, as a fence sitter, it is clear that something is lacking.

The management team wish you to donate your hard earned dosh to keep the project going.

It would appear that they cannot afford advertising on the telly.

Lots of debate from potential supporters.

No comment from the people wanting the money (except via proxy).

Given that PPrune contributers are probably a bl**dy good source of revenue, maybe it would be a good place for them to come and speak to ther Customers?

Thus reassuring the pro-£250k and maybe winning over the anti-£250k.

Or is it a case of "let them eat cake"?

Just a little thought

[The Rocket]

andrewmcharlton,

Felicity Irwin is the Campaign Director and a Trustee, not, as she would give the impression, the Project Director.

Seems to me that she's not really doing a very good job at the moment, and some might say she hasn't done a very good job full stop. She appears to have made many enemies and few friends with her "treat the public like mushrooms" attitude. There are very well grounded rumours doing the rounds that the hangarage issue could have been dealt with a long time ago, but allegedly the Waltons will not even discuss this while Ms Irwin has anything to do with the project.

The fact that she is currently in France on a no doubt relaxing holiday, while the rest of the project and the general public run around like headless chickens trying to raise awareness and sponsorship, HER JOB!!!, says a lot about her, and her role as the campaign manager.

I think this project could be doing much better with a bit of a reshuffle personally.

[andrewmcharlton]

Rocket,

Apologies that's my error.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you say other than she's apparently back from Holiday now !

[Legin558]

Hi guys,

Sorry to come in late on this. I am not going to argue the rights or wrongs of pumping more money into the project, however I would love to see 558 in the sky again.

The VTS site is obviously asking for pledges and relate this to the 2000 members pledging £558.00 each to raise this money.

Way back in 93 there were 250,000 + signatures raised in an attempt to keep this bird in the RAF as a Falklands memorial flight.

I know this because I was collecting them for the proposed house of commons debate which had been organised on the day we carted the Thunderball model around parliament square. Raymond Baxter was with us at the time and many Vulcan fans will have seen the videos of this.

Obviously most of you will know the outcome that our, then Minister for Defence , Malcolm Rifkind pulled the rug from under our feet and declared that 558 had been sold to David Walton.

Getting to the pojnt of this post. The VTS say they have 2000 members. I find it hard to believe that more people are not members. The above post #236 by iank suggests a core following of 22000 members. If this is so, then the sums must surely add up to only £54.00 per supporter and not £558.00.
£54.00 is not a vast amount to see the £1.2M needed to ensure the project continues to completion. It is a figure that most aviation enthusists could donate by a pledge to the VTS site.

As for any funds required for the continued running costs, I again can only tell you of my involvement during the 1992/93 period.

A small group, including myself, and some (lets just say important people from BAe, Rolls Royce and Dowty), and some financial wizards from the private sector accounting world, had a meeting at Bomber High Command in High Wycombe. Lots of Air Marshalls and government MOD accountancy people were on the other side of the table, including Johnathan Aitken who was, I believe at the time in the same office as Malcolm Rifkind.

The agenda was obviously a major attempt at keeping 558 within the RAF. BAe offering at that time to complete the Major service required for the Vulcan, "at no profit", were the words used. Also at that time, the airshow organisers had in part, agreed to levy an amount per person at any airshow that the Vulcan appeared at. Figures of 50p to £1.00 being in discussion. This would have meant that at Mildenhall (2 day show) 250,000 people on the Saturday and 300,000 on the Sunday, a good £0.5M would have been raised from one show. Add to this all the other shows, RIAT, Finningley etc. The Vulcan operating costs would have been covered easily for the 10 to 15 years life, the major service would have provided. Add to this a North American airshow tour and who knows what would have happened.

Anyway, sorry to digress.
Lets forget about the £250K that seems to be a Red Herring and concentrate on the £1.2M needed for full completion, which I might add would only become payable by the people who pledge it, if the full amount of £1.2M pledges are reached.

Where do we find the other 20,000 supporters than iank mentions in his post, so we are not reliant on the 2000 that the VTS have as Club members.

Thanks for reading this.

Nigel

[BEagle]

The simple facts were that the fast-jet centric RAF of the time had absolutely no intererest in allowing a big bomber to continue to fly.

[Tim McLelland]

Hi guys,

Lets forget about the £250K that seems to be a Red Herring
Nigel


Let's not forget about it eh? Otherwise you'll be arguing about nothing in roughly two week's time...

[andrewmcharlton]

Tim,

Your optomism is admired, but if there is such a battle to raise this £250k, where on earth will the remainder come from that even Felicity says is needed to move forward.

Where did the Dr think the rest was going to come from ?

There seems to be no pending potential sponsor with pen hovering , although maybe they will surprise us all, so I am concerned that if they raise the cash against the odds, we just end up stuck for money to proceed and then how do we protect and preserve the airframe for the future ?

[FJJP]

I remember a Bombing Comp presentation day where the then CinC STC stood in the centre of the cream of the Vulcan Force and effectively said that he couldn't wait to get rid of the fleet. Went down like a lead balloon, as you can imagine. Filled us full of deep joy...

[Beags, that was the time when the Scampton Sqns got together as a wing to beat the pants off Waddo - remember? Inter-Sqn cooperation the likes of which had not been seen before or since!]

[ExAvio]

How many of us have in fact pledged money?
I have and my pledge is the minimum I will donate if asked.

[iank]

Re post #412: I too queried the 20,000 figure on the VTTS forums in a similar style of equation - having been a '558 supporter since 1993 and a member of the club, I was only aware of 2000 club members.

However, the answer given on the forum was that 20,000 are known to the Trust as 'Friends' i.e. they have expressed interest or a donation to the VTSTrust by name (as opposed to just throwing money in a collecting tin). I would imagine therefore that Trust will have contacted them to ask for more money :rolleyes: or are hoping that the national publicity campaign and the website campaign are keeping those 20000 informed!

My only personal reservation (from having run raffles/draws in the past to accumulate names for mailshots) is that a percentage of the 20,000 might be names that were pestered into buying raffle tickets by colleagues or family members - in which case they may have no desire to give further money. The sum that gives a result of £54 per head falls apart very quickly in those circumstances!

I tend to agree with some of the other folk 'here' - the project will be saved by either a change of heart by the HLF, or by the diehard supporters 'hocking' themselves to come up with pledges to the Club. In the latter case, then I think the Trust would have to consider whether it has performed sufficiently well over the last 12 months or whether it needs to involve 'new blood' for which several people have nominations I'm sure! I think at that point, some of the commercial funding that has been allegedly 'hiding in the wings' might come to the fore to see the test program financed etcetera.

In the meantime - Rollout is on for Aug 31st (I've had my invite), there's an open day at Bruntingthorpe on Sunday 27th August (bank holiday weekend so no excuse) where I'm sure the Club will be happy to take money off you for donations/pledges and you'll be able to see the object of so many peoples passion - the Vulcan that is!

[Winco]

Tim,
Please don't take this as an offence in any way, but you have made it abundantly clear on this forum that you know Pleming on a level that the rest of us don't. Therefore may I ask you to put a few questions to him on our behalf?

1. Please ask him to consider coming onto this forum (or through yourself) and give it to us all 'straight from the horses mouth'?
2. If he declines, would you please ask him why not?
3. Please express the deep and serious concern amongst PPrune members at his lack of comments on the problem?
4. Will you ask him to make a statement to the aviation world, stating EXACTLY where the project stands, what EXACTLY is needed and WHEN it is needed by?
5. Please ask him to explain why he is so confident that the rest of the money will be forthcoming. It may give us some encouraqgement to pledge more money.
6. Finally, will you explain to him that very many people like myself WILL NO LONGER give more money to this project until we get some answers to the position of exactly where this project is at, and exactly what is happening?

I don't believe the HLF will entertain any more donations, and if the project is to continue, then it will be down to continued donations from the public. Pleming MUST be made aware of the concern amongst avaition supporters and he must go public on what is happening, if this project is to be saved. Time is running out, and with only a couple of weeks left, it's time for some serious pubilcity for the head of this project.

"Come on Robert, please tell us what is going on, please"

The Winco

[Tim McLelland]

I don't know Pleming at all. I'm merely basing my comments on the information that he's given me. He's told me very little that we didn't already know, and to be fair there isn't much more that we do need to know. All of these figures that are being thrown-about are found on the web sites, and the figures are correct. They refer to different stages of the project and so a different figure is applicable to different points on the project calendar. Naturally, he might be giving me his own "spin" just like anybody else, but whatever his position and the true situation, he's very clear that they will wrap-up the project at the end of this month without the 250k. That's the only "hard fact" that has come out of all this and so I just keep trying to remind everyone that it's counter-productive to be continually going-off on tangents or looking at the wider funding picture right now. It's pointless to be arguing about whether the project needs maybe another million to reach the flight stage, when there will be no project in 2-3 weeks, without the 250k.

I've never disputed that the project will need more cash to get the aircraft into the air, or that the whole, sorry programme has been a farce right from the very start. Without investigating the whole project from the very beginning, you can't reach any real conclusions, and right now there's little point in even trying to, as there will be nothing to investigate unless some money is found very soon.

Ultimately, I think the future of the project rests squarely with the HLF. It is they and only they who can provide the necessary cash to get the aircraft to flight status, no matter what the required amount may be. They have the means to save the project and regardless of their guarded responses so far, they can give projects additional funding if they see fit. Likewise, as the biggest "stakeholder" in the project, it is the HLF who ought to be asking the fundamental questions as to how well (or badly) the project has been managed. No matter how you look at things, it is the HLF that we need. Without their support the project is dead - I don't think there's any doubt about that.

[Winco]

Tim,

This is my whole point Sir, there IS a lot more that we need to know! We need to know facts from the main man, not a bunch of figures from this web site, another set of figures from FI, another set from someone else. We need to know facts!

If, as you now claim, you don't know Pleming at all, why are you feeding us all this info that you claim he is telling you? You have certainly given me the impression that you are resonably close to him (indeed you are the person I know who has spoken to him or got a reply from him) hence why I posted a series of questions for you to ask him.

Forget about the HLF, I don't think that will happen. If this project is to be saved, then it is down to us all to 'cough up' a little bit more, but with Pleming appearing to have gone 'deep and silent' I'm not optomistic, are you?

The Winco

[The Swinging Monkey]

Hey Tim,
Just what is the relationship between you and Dr P?
I have read through this forum and at every opportunity, you have defended him and portrayed him as a nice guy. You have made comments that certainly suggest that you and he are on 'talking terms' and, put bluntly, I have almost regarded you as his spokesman! He even tells you that he's confident of raising the extra money needed (something I haven't heard from any other source. And now you tell us that you don't know him at all!
Come on Tim, what is going on? Do you know him or not?
Anyway, you obviously seem to have an 'in' with him, so will you be putting 'The Winco's' questions to him or not?
Kind regards
TSM

[Tim McLelland]

This is hard work isn't it? I'm repeating myself yet again but here goes:-

I don't know Pleming at all. I have merely exchanged correspondence with him. The precise status of the project is anybody's guess, but the various figures that are being discussed here are, of course, all correct, and you can find them all on the Vulcan site/s. So there's no reason to continually question this point - even Felcity Irwin has evidently repeated the overall figures for the programme yet again.

The fundemental point is that Pleming says quite specifically that 250k is needed by the end of this month, or else the project ends - it's that simple. I don't know whether TVOC can or will raise the cash that is needed after this point but as I keep on saying, it doesn't matter does it? There will be no point in raising any cash if the project is closed-down in two-three weeks.

If you think the HLF is a non starter then fine, that's your view, but make no mistake, it is the only potential way to save this project in my (and other people's) opinion. The HLF can save the project easily, if TVOC (with our support) can convince them to do so. If we decide not to even try, or spend the next two weeks endlessly arguing about the wider programme, then it will be too late in any case.

As for Dr Pleming, he hasn't gone into hiding - he's in hospital.

Hope that's as clear as I can be?:)

[andrewmcharlton]

isn't it as simple as the project actually needs £1m pledged or it folds ?

Thats from FI herself.

Finding £250k without the rest is like going swimming in 6ft of water when you're 5'11", its going to end in tears.

[ZH-127]

isn't it as simple as the project actually needs £1m pledged or it folds ?

Thats from FI herself.

Finding £250k without the rest is like going swimming in 6ft of water when you're 5'11", its going to end in tears.

*derail:

Dont you mean "diving" in 6ft of water when you're 5'11"? :p

*back on subject...

WEll even if it is the £1m they need, surely the HLF can sub it some more. There has been money given to lots of unworthy causes in the history of the HLF.. surely this once they can do something to bring back a piece of british aviation history?

[Robert_Pleming]

Dear PPruners

Yesterday, I was asked by Nigel Bradley to take a look at this forum.

I have to say since leaving my job at internet company Cisco Systems that I have never taken much interest in Forums, since they seem to me to generate rather more heat than they do illumination, but having read the last couple of pages of this thread, there is certainly some illumination that I can supply.

I refer to the following list of questions, that seem to me to be appropriate and worthwhile answering:

1. Please ask him to consider coming onto this forum (or through yourself) and give it to us all 'straight from the horses mouth'?

Happy to do this, hopefully this long posting will supply the answers.

2. If he declines, would you please ask him why not?

That one's easy!

3. Please express the deep and serious concern amongst PPrune members at his lack of comments on the problem?

Understood, having read a couple of pages of this thread.

4. Will you ask him to make a statement to the aviation world, stating EXACTLY where the project stands, what EXACTLY is needed and WHEN it is needed by?

The Engineering Status of the Project now, almost exactly a year after the work on the aircraft started is this:

Introduction

The overhaul task was initially based upon the RAF’s Major Servicing Schedule – costed by the RAF at around 15000 manhours – but enhanced by:

a. The need to create an engineering facility at Bruntingthorpe.

b. A requirement to carry out a complete structural inspection.

c. A policy of refurbishment, instead of on-condition maintenance, for many system components.

d. A more stringent approach to the conditioning of cable looms.

e. Modification of Military Flight System and Rear Spar

Measurement of Progress

The general sequence of any aircraft maintenance task remains:

· Gaining access usually by removal of components,
· Inspection of structure and system components,
· Assessment of the results;
· Where needed, rectification or replacement.
· Refit,
· Functional testing and systems integration

Each task is, of course, fully documented and controlled through a work card system. As at 10th August 06, Marshall Aerospace’s records showed that 4549 work cards had been raised; of these 1408, or 31%, were logged as fully complete.

However, it is important to realise that this is a gross understatement of progress, as many of the open cards have the manhour intensive elements completed and awaiting lower-cost tasks such as availability of spares and refit.

Unusually, a narrative gives a more accurate impression and suggests that the overhaul is about 70% complete.

Review

Structure: Before the Major started, the uncertain condition of the structure was seen as a primary technical risk for two reasons:

a. The alloys used are known to be susceptible to SCC (Stress Corrosion Cracking) and exfoliation corrosion. Visual and radiographic inspection revealed only superficial corrosion; a few bolt-hole inspections (for cracks) need completion, but the only known cracking is in a longeron end fitting bracket in the pressure cabin; this can be repaired or replaced.

b. The structural fatigue life had nearly expired at the end of RAF service; extensive preparation has taken us to the point where Mod 2222 is fully mastered and ready for embodiment. This will release enough fatigue life for the immediate and mid-term flying programmes. If necessary, there is adequate technical information for another modification extending the cleared fatigue life yet further.

Undercarriage: The undercarriage legs now fitted are to provide mobility, as the three primary legs are finishing full overhaul at the approved repair agency. Again, we had been concerned as there was a history of SCC, but they have passed scrutiny.

Hot Air Ducts: These supply very hot air from the ECUs to wing de-icing and cabin pressurisation; unusually, these ducts had also been a structural integrity issue, but ours passed inspection and await re-installation.

ECUs: The eight ECUs remain in their preservative cocoons; they are yet to be run on aircraft but we have good reason to be confident about their condition.

AAPU: An overhauled, low hour unit is ready for installation.

Fuel System: The tank bays are inspected and in good condition; the flexible fuel tanks are to be re-manufactured; the OEM is contracted. Fuel system pumps, filters, valves etc are being serviced.

Cable Looms: where protected, the cable insulation is in good order but exposed runs in undercarriage bays have suffered. Looms supplying vital systems or showing visible damage, have substantially been replaced, but that task is not yet fully complete.

Flying Controls: The nine control surfaces are at their repair agencies for reskinning and the PFCUs with their OEM for servicing.

Cabin: The inspection of the complex cable looms in the cabin is 50% complete; the individual instruments are serviceable, but the panel has yet to be re-designed to accommodate the revised (but not yet finalised) Nav fit. The O2 system is rebuilt, the AVS sub-system removed and the combined pressurisation and heating system awaits testing.

Summary

The processes of overhaul are substantially more than half complete. It is important to acknowledge that virtual completion of the inspection process has shown the aircraft to be in overall good condition, and with knowledge we have come to realise that the risk of technical shock is now very low.

Our major project focus remains the OEMs who are servicing systems and components at no charge: we need to ensure that they meet the planned component need-by dates - we have little leverage over them.

I would encourage all of you to buy the excellent DVD documentary on the Restoration Project to date, published by Primetime Video.
See: http://www.ptvideo.com/videos/Aviation/VulcRest1.html


The Financial Status is this:

As at the end of June 2006 we had spent £2,751,900 since February 2005, split down in the following way:

A/C Purchase £125,000
Hangar rent £278,200
VOC costs £617,200
Marshall Aerospace costs £1,336,800
Education Proj £14000
Non-HLF costs £380700

Of the £2,751,900, the Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) has funded £2,142,600

VOC costs include everything on the engineering project that is not Marshall Aerospace. Non-HLF costs include everything that we cannot claim from the HLF, including fund-raising and marketing costs, insurance, expenses, accountants, auditors salaries of non-HLF people (including me).

At this point, before anyone asks, I would like to point out that whilst I now receive a salary from VTST via my own consulting company, I have financially sacrificed more than any other individual (except possible David Walton) on this project, having voluntarily given up a £150,000pa job as a director at Cisco in 2000 and led the project full-time for no comparable compensation for 3 and a half years.)

Future Plans

We need to reach first flight, for everyone agrees that the project's world will change when that is achieved. It is also the moment when the aircraft is no longer at risk - we will be able to reposition it, and if necessary have a breathing space before anything else happens. I cannot stress enough how important it is that we make this milestone, which is now on our plan expected in March/April next year.

However, with our current known commitments, the Trust runs out of money at the end of August, and urgently needs an injection of £250k cash before the end of the month to keep us going though September. We are making some progress towards this, but not fast enough.

- Given that the Trust is a limited company and so governed by the laws covering insolvency, the Trustees (= Directors) have had no option but to give all employees one month's notice, with the hope that something will happen to avoid shutdown. It really is down to the wire this time. I know that the Trustees are trying their best to find additional funding as I type.

- The 20-month time delay between the original HLF decision in December 2003 and the actual start of work on the aircraft in August 2005 ate up a fair amount of the funds we had raised. This delay came from all sorts of different reasons, but mainly for contractual, legal and insurance reasons. For example, ensuring that our insurers, Marshall Aerospace's insurers and those of the key critical systems OEMs were all in agreement took some time.

- We have suffered additional costs, mainly from our prime contractor Marshall Aerospace, which on their own have already swallowed all but the entire £695k contingency budget that was in the business plan agreed with the HLF in 2004. That this is happened is a matter of deep regret, because we set expectations with MA from day one that the project was in essence a fixed price one. However MA has been and is taking a strongly commercial view, albeit helping us with a line of credit.

- Lastly, despite the efforts of the Trust's fund-raising arm, we have failed so far to attract a commercial sponsor. Our business plan assumed that we would have attracted sponsorship of at least £500k by now, but so far this has failed to materialise. My own view is that we won't get a commercial sponsor until we demonstrate the aircraft flying, such is the risk-averse nature of modern commerce.

All of our donors and supporters have been absolutely great and very generous, but the Trust's fund-raising arm thinks we may exhausted the existing donor base's resources now. We need rapidly to expand our supporter base.

We also know that we need funding at an average rate of about £125k/month to reach the end of March, by which time we should have made our first flight. My current estimated remaining net cash needed by month to reach first flight are these:

October £159,000
November £234,000
December £239,000
January £150,000
February £93,000
March £81,000

As you can see, we still have challenges ahead, but it is vital that we move from month-on-month uncertainty to some assurancethat we can at least reach first flight - hence the campaign for £1million.

5. Please ask him to explain why he is so confident that the rest of the money will be forthcoming. It may give us some encouragement to pledge more money.

I am not sure that I am totally confident that we will find the rest of the money, but I am confident that if we overcome the current crisis, the momentum that it will give us will be sustainable. The press and media coverage over the past few weeks has been substantial - the people who know about us want us to succeed. We need to turn enthusiasm that into funds, which is what the team is focused on.

One of the reasons why I am confident is the current emphasis on engineering skills. There is a potentially massive problem for the UK with the lack of the young choosing engineering as a career. James Dyson is opening a Technical College to "excite the young in engineering", and I believe fervently the XH558 can make a substantial contribution to making the young think about engineering. A whole generation of youngsters have never seen the aircraft: we can provide them with an unforgettable experience that should start some of them thinking "I want to be part of that".

6. Finally, will you explain to him that very many people like myself WILL NO LONGER give more money to this project until we get some answers to the position of exactly where this project is at, and exactly what is happening?

I do hope the above information provides answers to your questions.

In passing, I would like to point out that the project has been very closely monitored by the HLF since February 2005, who have held very detailed monthly reviews of both engineering and financial status. I cannot fault the HLF's support for this project. Both at a project level and higher in their organisation, the HLF remain in total support, but due to the policies under which they are operate, apparently unlikely to provide any further financial assistance.

I therefore hope that you will feel able to make a donation or a pledge, and, just as importantly, to spread the word far and wide so that others will also donate or pledge. I remain amazed that despite all our efforts, so many are still unaware of what we are trying to do But when these people are informed, they are totally supportive.

See:
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/edonate.php
http://www.vulcan558club.com/Pledge%20form.pdf

The readers of this thread could I believe make the difference.

Unfortunately I am going into hospital tomorrow morning for a potentially serious matter, and will not be surfacing for a number of days. In the meantime please send any questions to the email address at the bottom of this post, which will be answered by the team at Bruntingthorpe.

I also invite you to visit Bruntingthorpe and talk to the team face-to-face. Please call the number below and ask for Denis Parker.

Dr Robert Pleming
Project Director
Vulcan Operating Company division
Vulcan To the Sky Trust - a Registered Charity
0116 247 8145
[email protected]

[Navaleye]

Robert,

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to post here and bring us up to date. Secondly I wish you a speedy recovery. I hope wew ill all get to see the Vulcan in the air before too long.

[Vulcan 903]

Great information considering the fundrasing arm of the project is on holiday now until September! Shows who is committed and who is not. Thank you Dr Pleming for the information.

Quite a simple idea, PPRuNers pledge a fiver a month from September 2006 to May 2007 (Vulcan flypast (in the air!) down The Mall on Sunday June 17th.

Pledge it at http://www.vulcan558club.com/Pledge%20form.pdf When sending it off ask for an invite to be sent for the Rollout of Vulcan XH558 on Thursday August 31st at 13.00hrs. Come and see the project, the aeroplane and meet the engineers and have a cup of tea and a piece of cake.

Can we show The Vulcan Operating Company and its employee's we still care?

[Winco]

Robert,
Thank you so very much for taking the time to reply to my list of questions, and I have enjoyed reading your reply. These are obviously difficult and uncertain days for you, but I can assure you that you have my utter support once again, and I shall be writing a very strong e mail to HLF in support of your case to release some extra money.
I can assure you that by coming on here and being open and up-front, you will have set a lot of peoples minds at rest, and rekindled their drive and enthusiasm to make the project happen. Thank you Sir.
My e mail to HLF will be sent within the hour, and I will make another donation to the fund later on line.
Good luck and sincere thanks once again.
The Winco

[BEagle]

Robert,

Thanks for your very clear and comprehensive post.

In your post, you wrote "The 20-month time delay between the original HLF decision in December 2003 and the actual start of work on the aircraft in August 2005 ate up a fair amount of the funds we had raised. This delay came from all sorts of different reasons, but mainly for contractual, legal and insurance reasons. For example, ensuring that our insurers, Marshall Aerospace's insurers and those of the key critical systems OEMs were all in agreement took some time."

As this was obviously not expected, could you give us some rough idea of the scale of funding wich the 20 month delay ate up? Because I think it would not be unreasonable for the HLF to increase their grant by the same amount.

As for Marshall Aerospace, they stand to earn tens, if not hundreds of millions from the RAF Hercules Integrated Operational Support contract, and probably also an equivalent support contract for the TriStar. As announced today, they will eventually relocate to Mildenhall or Wyton; this will undoubtedly also bring in a substantial amount of money. Thus I find it rather shameful of them to have increased their cost element of this project as much as they clearly have and call for them to do their bit to get you through to the first flight date at least.

I also consider that the Bruntignthorpe hangar rent should be waived until the first flight has been made, at the very least.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Dr P,
May I also add my thanks to those of others who clearly appreciate your timely intevention in bringing us all up to date with the facts of this matter.
I agree entirely with the comments made by BEagle, and I very much hope that the management at Marshalls take a long hard look at this thread and respond to his call for a 'waiver' of the extra costs favourably. The same goes to Mr W for hangarage costs.

Robert, you have restored my faith in the project, and I will give it all the support I can. Thank you for coming on this forum and answering difficult questions. A cheque for £50.00 will be in the post this afternoon from me, and I would ask other PPruners to follow suit if they are able. I will also write to the HLF and plead for a further cash injection.

Anything else we can do Robert? Anyone else we can write to or lobby?

Kind regards
TSM
'Caruthers, raise a glass to a speedy recovery for the good Doctor!'

[rudekid]

Just goes to reinforce the opinion of 99.9% of the RAF population that Marshall Aerospace are a complete bunch of money-grabbing swine. :mad:

Surely someone can put some extra influence on Marshalls? Are they struggling financially?

My small contribution on it's way.

[rudekid]

Guys

The edonate system doesn't appear to be working. Anyone have any suggestions?

RK

[iank]

It might be a system glitch at the bank - try tomorrow or the VTS Club site has got an electronic Pledge form running, that way the money stays in your account until it's needed!

VTS Clube here http://www.vulcan558club.com/

[Tim McLelland]

Hope the direct reply from Dr P has finally ended the continual confusion and that we might now be able to discuss possible ways in which we can do something constructive?

As I've said previously, I think the HLF is the obvious target as despite their claim to be unable or unwilling to help further, we all know that they can, if they want to. As has been mentioned previously, they've poured lots more money into many other projects (Duxford for example) so there's no reason why they couldn't support the project at least until the flight stage.

The real question is how we might be able to persuade HLF that we want them to do this? And that we all want them to step-in, not just a few enthusiasts here and there...

[Winco]

Robert,
Just to let you know that I have spoken with, and written to, the HLF today. They have assured me that they are 'working closely with the trust' to find a way forward, which I took as encouraging news (they did NOT say they would not be giving you any more ££, which is a bonus I feel)

Tim, I am delighted that you have been proven correct, and I hope you have not taken too much offence at some of the postings on here. If nothing else, it has cleared the air, and we now all know the facts, where we stand and what needs to be done.

To the MD of Marshalls Aerospace: Sir, it would be an enormous gesture of goodwill and generosity if you could see your way to refunding some of the money that you have been paid and received from TVOC. On behalf of all PPruners, please consider your position and standing within the UK aerospace business, and if you feel you are able, then please refund some of the money back, in order that you may reap mlore in the future. Thank you Sir.

The Winco

[Guern]

My wife (of younger vintage than me!) thinks the Nimrod is noisy and impressive at displays!!

Would love to be able to take her to a display with a Vulcan displaying, happy memories.

[Legin558]

Hi guys,

Robert: Thankyou very much for taking my advice and posting your comments here. I can immediately see improvements. Good luck with your Op and hope to see you out and about soon.

So guys we can all pull together now, I hope.
If I may suggest one or two things that are needed, if anyone can help then please do.

Tim: Your site allows visitors to e-mail the HLF. Would it be possible to do the same with The Sun Newspaper (ideally) and / or possibly the Mirror. We need to get the publicity moving and although the Telegraph and Daily Express have run articles, The Sun has approx 3 Million readers, (who don't look at the other papers) and are usually supportive of Britain and British, if we can let them know how important this matter is, maybe they can be helpful (especially with regard to the HLF). I have written to them already but with no response as yet. I feel they will only help if they see a large interest.

Again, everyone can help with this.
Discovery Channel (Wings) is another avenue for publicity. They have been showing the V Force documentaries of late and if you look at their website, the vulcan came 2nd in a Poll of the Best British aircraft. They mistakenly state that all Vulcans are in museums. If they too can be targeted with enough interested parties, they may just give us a mention. Also they could be a potential sponsor.??

I am hoping to talk to Bruce Dickinson in the next day or so, to see if he can help in this matter. I understand he was in the cockpit of XL426 last weekend. So there is some tie in there.

If anyone would like (and has the time) to help, please e-mail me, I have a list of who needs contacting, but this needs some co-ordination so that we are not duplicating our efforts. We need also to tie in with the project office to make sure we don't double up on anything they are currently acting on.

Once again
Regards to Robert

Thanks for reading this.
Nigel

[Tim McLelland]

I'm trying to get more information from as many sources as possible (whilst trying to tackle other tasks at the same time!) but in principle I'd agree that any avenue is worth pursuing. However, I firmly believe that the only practical way of saving the project is the HLF. I think that if all our efforts were directed to putting pressure on the HLF, be it through direct emails, Sun campaigns, television or whatever, then the project could proceed very easily. In terms of Lottery funding, another million or more is nothing, and as I've said before, it's our money that the HLF are spending, and I'm sure we'd all like some more of it to be spent on XH558 instead of some other hair-brained scheme.

I'm all for pursuing any potential avenues but I think that dontations are just not going to to hack-it. Likewise, it seems clear that sponsors are not going to come forward, at least not until the aircraft is seen to be a viable, flying machine. So the HLF is the obvious target, isn't it?

[andrewmcharlton]

Dr P, thank you very much for your post, the information is a great relief to everyone, credit to you for posting it, I hope the fundraising element of TVOC take note what some information can do to change peoples views.

Tim, I totally agree. If you do the maths you will see the amount that was not funded by HLF is by definition donations. Split that across the time period and even back of the cigarette packet calculations show the rate of donations is simply never going to be enough. At least Dr P is frank about the prospects and timing of getting a commercial sponsor, realism that seems to have been previously lacking by others.

I raise a glass to all the technical folk who have ploughed on so hard in such trying circumstances.

If you read the quote from HLF on the last newsletter, close scrutiny shows that the words can, if we interpret them as we see fit, indicate a potential for extra help from HLF. A look at their web site gives named contacts and email addresses.

This may be a dumb remark but is their scope to build any new hangarage on site that after capital outlay might be free of rent or minimal anyway ? Seems to me that the Mr Walton is on a tidy number looking at the rental outlays, has anyone got contact details for him ?

[BEagle]

If you go to this site:

http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2006/xh558/xh558.htm

you can send your message direct to the HLF.

PLEASE DO SO!!

[iank]

Just goes to reinforce the opinion of 99.9% of the RAF population that Marshall Aerospace are a complete bunch of money-grabbing swine. :mad:

Surely someone can put some extra influence on Marshalls? Are they struggling financially?


I don't think that's the case - more like Marshalls anticipated making more money on long-term maintenance and support - or that their committment to the project would be short (remember that initially no one was sure that '558 would be in good enough conditon). When surveyed the airframe proved to be in better condition than they were advised (by BAe perhaps?). The accountants then re-calculated and a larger bill presented.

Or am I being cynical?

[Tim McLelland]

Reference Beagle's posting, Airscene have already encouraged more than 500 people to send-off emails to HLF, so please add your own message when you can, and ask all your friends to do likewise. Over 500 people already is pretty good going... if we keep-up the bombardment, HLF will not be left under any illusions as to how much support the proect has.

Andrew, regarding the hangarage costs, I'm still looking into this as I'm getting conflicting stories. The latest one I've heard is that the charges my actually be directly due to TVOC's attitude/position, and not down to David Walton as such, but at this stage I can't add anything to this. If it's true, I'll be even more gobsmacked than I already am:)

[BEagle]

If you go to http://www.marshallaerospace.com/contacts/default.asp?id=Directors , you will find the names, e-mail addresses and contact numbers for all the Marshall Aerospace dirctors, should you so wish.....

[Winco]

Got the following from HLF today:


Thank you for your email and I have recorded your support for the Vulcan XH558. As discussed, I confirm that we are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward.
Regards
Clare Henderson
Information Manager
Heritage Lottery Fund
Direct line: 020 7591 6044

Clearly it's not over yet, and I would urge as many as possible to continue to write, phone or e mail the HLF.
I'll keep my fingers crossed!
The Winco

[johnfairr]

I caught the tail end of coverage of 558 on ITV London Today at about 1:15pm that said it was due to fly over London next year, if they can raise another £1M in the next 4 weeks. Martin Withers was also interviewed on site. At least it has now had some more public coverage that might jog a few people into action. The item might well be repeated this evening, 6ish probably

jf

[GonzoXL5]

I like the idea someone had of talking to Bruce Dickinson.

Iron Maiden benefit gig on the cards perhaps ?

[The Rocket]

Robert,

Congratulations on an excellent, informative post. Hopefully this will clear things up and allow us all to concentrate on doing what we can to help this magnificent aircraft return to the air.

I've just added my little 2p worth to the HLF, fingers crossed:ok:

[forget]

Trivial question at this stage perhaps, but what is the intended colour scheme? I'm assuming that it's the only sensible one, white undersides, upper camoflage (full gloss) and black radome. As in last factory deliveries, 1964. Nothing else will cut the mustard:ok: Mind you that's only my opinon.

[Tim McLelland]

There isn't one - the aircraft is unchanged from it's pre-restoration state so it doesn't look any different although it is of course completely refurbished. Actually we did this a few pages back...

[forget]

............. I'd be happier with dark green, medium sea grey and white, complete with red, white and blue insignia and a black radome - just like "proper" Vulcans should be:D
We agree on that then - but where did I see a charge for painting - Cranfield??

[Tim McLelland]

It seems that comment referred to internal work (Cranwell), not the external colour scheme:)

[BobIvison]

Discovery Wings tonight has been showing the Vulcan story finishing off with the 558 farewell show - surely we can get Discovery to give us some coverage!!

Keep up the good fight

[whitworth]

The colour scheme will remain as is ( albeit slightly patchy ), up to first flight. After that, who knows

[Tim McLelland]

Can I remind everyone that we now have a feature on Airscene's site, complete with an automated email which you can fill-in and send directly.

So far over 700 people have sent emails, so hopefully HLF will be getting the message by now!

Tell all your friends - send the emails and maybe we can persuade HLF to provide the cash that TVOC needs.

www.airsceneuk.org.uk

Sorry to the Pprune bosses - I wouldn't normally advertise another web site but in this case I trust we all agree that this is an important matter:)

[Blacksheep]

That site was very well written and sets out pretty clearly how much has been spent and how much more is needed. I don't see how commercial organizations can do any work for less than the proper commercial price unless they're sponsors and a total project cost of 3.95 million (2.7 down and 1.25 to go) to get XH558 airborne sounds about right to me.

I also agree that if the old girl can be wrested from the hands of Pleming and Felicity et al and placed under proper management by people who know what they're doing, there's a reasonable chance of getting proper sponsorship and keeping her airborne. For a while anyway.

I may be a miserable old doomsaying git, but it cost me nothing to fill in the form and click the button.

BTW. I reckon they need Tim on the new PR team.

[dwhcomputers]

Can I remind everyone that we now have a feature on Airscene's site, complete with an automated email which you can fill-in and send directly.
So far over 700 people have sent emails, so hopefully HLF will be getting the message by now!
Tell all your friends - send the emails and maybe we can persuade HLF to provide the cash that TVOC needs.
www.airsceneuk.org.uk
Sorry to the Pprune bosses - I wouldn't normally advertise another web site but in this case I trust we all agree that this is an important matter:)
Tim
as someone who now tops up their pension by selling laptops at computer fairs may I have your permission to use your article to produce a powerpoint presentation to display at the fairs

[Tim McLelland]

Tim
as someone who now tops up their pension by selling laptops at computer fairs may I have your permission to use your article to produce a powerpoint presentation to display at the fairs

Of course - do whatever you can, any publicity is good publicity!

I've just received a communication from HLF and I've written-back to seek a clear outline of their position with regard to the future of the project.

I have of course pointed-out that unless they step-in with more cash, their original investment will be seen to have been completely wasted, therefore it makes perfect sense to at least fund the project to flight status, so that we can see once and for all whether any sponsorship is likely to be forthcoming. Likewise, I've also pointed-out that unless HLF provides sufficient funds, the aircraft cannot even be removed from Bruntingthorpe (to IWM) and so it will be left in external storage to slowly rot. Either way it's not going to be much of an advert for HLF!

I will of course pass-on any more information as and when I receive any

[beamer]

Drain the oils, give it a coat of paint and stick it in a hangar for evermore. It's not going to fly and neither is Concorde - endex !

Incoming....................................................

[iank]

- Drain the oils, give it a coat of paint and stick it in a hangar for evermore.

Nice try! Are you going to stump up the hangar rent then?

[Tombstone]

Plenty of optimism floating around, I do hope it lasts more than another 16 days...

My thoughts are still the same. Sadly, I don't think it won't fly this year or any other year. The costings are enormous and there is insufficient enthusiasm from the financial sector to support it.

Sorry Tim, just my humble opinion.

[Tim McLelland]

Just what I was thinking ian! - would be nice if the more cynical message-posters could at least bother to read the preceding message before adding another pointless comment?!

Tombstone, yep, your opinion is noted. You may be right but it is now clear that lots of us want to at least be satisfied that we have exhausted every possible avenue, rather than just sitting-back and giving-up. I wouldn't want to spend heaven-knows how many years wondering "what if"...

[brickhistory]

[QUOTE=Tim McLelland]Just what I was thinking ian! - would be nice if the more cynical message-posters could at least bother to read the preceding message before adding another pointless comment?!
QUOTE]

WTF made you the arbiter of what's pointless or not?

"Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

And where do you fit in here? If none of the above, then perhaps a bit more 'neck in' is called for?

[Tim McLelland]

I'd venture to suggest that your message fits nicely into the "pointless" category too!

If you can't say anything constructive, could I/we ask why bother saying anything at all?

[Tombstone]

Can't argue with that. The thought of seeing the Lightning and Vulcan flying in formation, beautiful.

[Vulcan 903]

Just to point out that the Vulcan Operating Conpany had no involvement in the Hanger Rental. This was managed by two of the Vulcan To The SKy Trustees ...both sharing the same surname.
The Walton family are quite upset at the recent discussion about hangar rental. Not speaking on there behalf, but they are fully behind the project and always have been.
Given a chance I think they would like more involvement in the project but under the current structure they are standing back from it.

The "Dr" will be out of action some some time. The fundrasing Dept of VTTS is near anuf closed (they are in the south of France until September) so please pledge via the Vulcan supporters club. They have hired a PR company and they might just be able to turn it around.

[brickhistory]

I'd venture to suggest that your message fits nicely into the "pointless" category too!
If you can't say anything constructive, could I/we ask why bother saying anything at all?


2 Aug 06 13:07
If he doesn't reply in a couple of days, I'll write again and point-out that I will write-up his lack of response when I complete my new Vulcan book. Bit coercive perhaps?

1 Aug 06 07:00
Number of screwed-up people who base their beliefs and lifestyle on the teachings of a grossly over-translated book (no honestly, a book)... 100 million-plus? (this takes into account a generous estimation of approximately fifty million people who presumably think their religion is as flawed and ridiculous, and downright dangerous as everyone else...)

Oh, and as I've already said, I don't agree with posts being removed either - I'd rather hear what people have to say - so don't go blaming me on that one!

1 Aug 06 06:57
I quite agree that the whole project seems to have been handled ineptly, and from the confidential information I've seen, the only beneficiary seems to have been Dr Pleming! Despite our efforts, we've not seen any evidence to suggest any other conclusion, have we?

2 Apr 06 12:56
Widger, I'd be grateful if (for the sake of others using this forum) you could avoid wandering-off into vaguely abusive comments at every opportunity. What point is there to this? A forum is supposed to be a place to discuss topics, and if you have a view then by all means share it, but please don't assume that your view is any better than anyone else's.

Perhaps you'll understand my confusion over your self-appointed role and judgement of others calls?

[Tim McLelland]

I think we understand you entirely. If you have some sort of problem, could I suggest you take it up with a Pprune moderator or adminsitrator and allow us to continue our discussion about the Vulcan's future? Thanks.

[Vulcan 903]

I think we understand you entirely. If you have some sort of problem, could I suggest you take it up with a Pprune moderator or adminsitrator and allow us to continue our discussion about the Vulcan's future? Thanks.

Thank you Tim, yes, can we focus on the Vulcan. I have spoken to the great "Dr" this pm and any ideas from PPRuNers would be welcome.

Where feasiable they will be followed up and feedback will be given.

Thanks
Paul

[Tim McLelland]

The saga does indeed continue. I'm awaiting some further responses from both Felicity Irwin and HLF, so if anything more crops-up I'll pass-on any information. Meanwhile the Airscene email campaign seems to be going well. Once I have some more definitive information from TVOC and HLF, I think it might be worth trying (as has been suggested) to start a similar campaign to get a newspaper to support us - could be worth a try and I'm quite prepared to have a go, but as ever there still seems to be lots of unanswered questions right now.

[Vulcan 903]

The saga does indeed continue. I'm awaiting some further responses from both Felicity Irwin and HLF, so if anything more crops-up I'll pass-on any information. Meanwhile the Airscene email campaign seems to be going well. Once I have some more definitive information from TVOC and HLF, I think it might be worth trying (as has been suggested) to start a similar campaign to get a newspaper to support us - could be worth a try and I'm quite prepared to have a go, but as ever there still seems to be lots of unanswered questions right now.

Felicity Irwin is a trustee of VTTS.
What information do you need from TVOC.

Cheers
Paul

[brickhistory]

I think we understand you entirely. If you have some sort of problem, could I suggest you take it up with a Pprune moderator or adminsitrator and allow us to continue our discussion about the Vulcan's future? Thanks.

Wow, when did you assume the voice for all? My point was to highlight the fact that when you throw stones, it is perfectly ok, but if another dares do so, you become outraged.

Oh, and as I've thrown the odd dollar or two to the Vulcan project, I do hope I'm worthy enough for your thread. I commend you for your efforts in raising the alarm and moving people along, but man, are you shrill in doing so.

[Tim McLelland]

Paul, I don't need any specific information as such - I'm just trying to get a clear picture from the various people and parties involved. Naturally it would be a bit foolish to embark on any more publicity or campaigning without being entirely confident as to all the relevant facts - as you know, everyone seems to have a slightly different take on the story!

[andrewmcharlton]

Tim,
If you make contact with the french connection you might want to see if her figures (ones she sent to me and posted earlier) are still current and if they tie in with Dr Plemings understanding.
The only thing out of Felicity's responses that worried me was that she was saying that they still needed the £250k despite donations as there were other debts they had to pay. It would be interesting to see what their ongoing monthly liabilities are now as it seems like its a credit card scenario where no matter how much you pay off you make no headway. How much do they really need to pay the monthly bills AND make progress ?
The HLF quote in the last newsletter should be used to leverage the position, their words :
"Many projects need additional funds from time to time to manage changes in costs and works. ...
The HLF is entirely supportive and looks forward with enthusiasm to XH558 returning to flight.
Des Gallagher
Casework Manager
Heritage Lottery Fund"
Best wishes to Dr P for a speedy recovery.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Gentlemen,
I would suggest that whoever you speak to, you DO NOT speak to FI !!
It strikes me that she has been a major contributor to the mass of confusion that exists (or existed) with this project, openly spouting differing sums of money needed to keep things going. Tragically, her continuous 'crying wolf' comments were finally ignored, at a time when they might just have been accurate!
She should be binned frankly! and the sooner the better.
Kind regards
TSM

[Legin558]

Hi guys,

I would respectfully suggest that anyone needing clarification on this subject, should talk to Rusty at the office. She is trying her best to co-ordinate all the effort at the moment.

Obviously there is some bad feeling about certain individuals, however could I suggest that the witch hunt waits until after we have secured the future for 558, or alternatively until after 31st Aug.

We should be keeping our minds focused on one thing and one thing alone. The 250K that's required for end of August followed by the remaining 1M which will enable the Trust to be sufficiently satisfied that the backing is present and that the project can continue.

Obviously the 1M in pledges is to prevent the panic call for 180K at end of September, 150K end October and so forth till project completion.

We need as much media coverage as possible, we need the 20,000 odd friends of 558 and as many more as possible. 100,000 tenners or something in at region. We can only get this from the public who are not aware of this campaign (assuming the HLF still cannot add to the grant).

The media coverage as I stated in an earlier post will take time to get sorted, time we do not have unless we do it now.

Please guys, lets all pull together for a while.

Nigel

[Tombstone]

The fundrasing Dept of VTTS is near anuf closed (they are in the south of France until September) so please pledge via the Vulcan supporters club. They have hired a PR company and they might just be able to turn it around.

That sums up the management of this fiasco in a nut shell! The fundraising dept is closed at a time when raising money has probably never been so important!

Endex Endex Endex.

[Vulcan 903]

But... The Vulcan Operating Company and the Vulcan 558 Club are very much open, so do visit them. You can see the Vulcan on Sundays in the hangar.

The club is being very relistic and asking for pledges only. I have pledged £558 , or my Visa card will!

10 Months today could be its first public appearance?

[The Rocket]

The fundraising dept is closed at a time when raising money has probably never been so important!


And that, my friend, says an enormous amount about the woman and her true feelings and dedication to the project. Do you really think that if she was in any way correctly dedicated and passionate about this project, she would be swanning off to France for a month? :mad: Seriously? It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic!!

In my humble opinion, this is where the majority of the blame lies in this project's downfall. Her constant 'my trainset' attitude, and fondness for treating intelligent aviation enthusiasts like fools, and attempting to keep them in the dark, whilst crying wolf for more sponsorship, has done this whole project FAR more harm than she has ever actually done FOR it.

I suggest the noble thing for her to do would be to bow out gracefully, before her pride and ego destroy something so many people have been working so very hard and so long for.

[Zero-1]

The saga does indeed continue. I'm awaiting some further responses from both Felicity Irwin and HLF, so if anything more crops-up I'll pass-on any information. Meanwhile the Airscene email campaign seems to be going well. Once I have some more definitive information from TVOC and HLF...........

May I ask what info you need from a non-existant company??

TVOC was a division of C Walton Ltd when David owned the A/c and ceased to exist when VTTST was set up {check Companies House}but the acronim{is that the right word?} was kept because I believe that it existed on the paperwork from "Soft Start" and in fact refers to the engineering division of VTTST.

With Dr Pleming ill and the Wicked Witch of the West, as the entire hierachy of RIAT refer to her, is not around.... although I personally don't think this mess is entirly her fault, the whole Trustee board should take a lot the responsibillity for not controlling her.... Andrew Edmondson and Rusty Drewett are running the ship... with us volunteers in the club leading the van on fund raising....

So lets keep at it and don't leave something you think might help, 'til it's too late,.....
as one of the bosses of an old friend of mine used to say.....

JFDI!!!!!

If you don't understand above, and I'm sure you do, send me a PM....:ok:

CliveM

[iank]

Obviously there is some bad feeling about certain individuals, however could I suggest that the witch hunt waits until after we have secured the future for 558, or alternatively until after 31st Aug.

We should be keeping our minds focused on one thing and one thing alone. The 250K that's required for end of August followed by the remaining 1M which will enable the Trust to be sufficiently satisfied that the backing is present and that the project can continue.



Hear,hear - that hit's the nail on the head! There's plenty of time after the 31st Aug if we need to conduct 'witch hunts', but from today we have just over 14.5 days to determine the future. Whether raising the money needed is possible or not - we won't know until 1st September! Let's concentrate on that first.

[samuraimatt]

How many Vulcan threads?

[forget]

Go to Advanced Search. Type Vulcan in the 'titles' - et voila.

[airsound]

In view of people’s plans to contact media organisations, I thought it might be helpful if I explained a few of the things I’ve been doing since the beginning of August. Some posters will know of my connection and friendship with Dr Pleming. With his approval, and in the absence of Felicity, I have been trying to capitalise on my recent experience of mounting media campaigns for saving the B-17 Sally B, and for the installation of Explosive Suppressant Foam in RAF Hercules.

I am sad to say that, despite a lot of effort, we have not so far managed to get much interest in the Vulcan from newspaper or broadcast editors.

I have had individual discussions with BBC Breakfast (BBC1), Today (BBC Radio 4), ITV News, Sky News and Channel 4 News. I have sent them a specially designed press release (pm me if you want a copy) - and they all, except BBC Breakfast, have pleaded too much other news at the moment, especially relating to aviation matters, security and Middle East wars. ‘Today’ also say they’ve covered the story already (one interview with Sir Mike Knight some weeks ago). BBC Breakfast were going to do a live piece from Bruntingthorpe on friday 11 Aug, but they cancelled because of the security stories. They say they are still planning to do something, but by the time they can make room for it in their schedule, it may be too late.

We have also prepared an Open Letter to the UK Aerospace Industry over the signature of Ken Ellis, distinguished editor of Flypast magazine. The Letter offers a strong case for the industry to get its act together and put up some individual or collective sponsorship. We are in negotiation with appropriate publications, but there are no guarantees that it will get published. The Open Letter has also gone to some industry bodies.

All of this is taking up a lot of time, that, I have to say, I can ill afford. But I do believe that it has to be done. Rob Pleming remains, despite his extremely difficult personal circumstances, an absolute tower of strength. We are very lucky to have such a courageous man as Director.

I have to say that the absence of much success so far is a bit daunting but we haven’t given up yet.

airsound

[danohagan]

If the project were a football club, then "we", the "fans" would have been demanding the "manager's" head by now. And the "club" would almost certainly have got rid of the person(s) in question and brought in someone else in a bid to improve "results"...

Maybe a lame analogy to draw, but certainly a thought... A new broom at the top would perhaps give the project fresh impetus?

[andrewmcharlton]

Wasn't the trustees message in the last newsletter and the HLF comments the dreaded "vote of confidence" ?.

Hopefully HLF will grant a stay and impose some conditions on it that keep them and the supporters happy. Fingers crossed.

Why don't we see if we can get Mr Dickinson to donate a track for paid download to raise some money ?

[Vulcan 903]

If you pledge to the Vulcan 558 Club, and they call up the pledge you can pay them over a 6 month period. Worth a thought.

Major players are reviewing the project, one such is a very popular camera and photocopying company.

[BEagle]

Can(on) that be true?

One would have thought that Olympus would perhaps be more appropriate!

[Tim McLelland]

Just for reference, I'm still monitoring progress on the saga, but i don't think there's any point in getting involved with any campaigns or anything like that, as it now looks like there are already too many people doing this already. I congratulate Airsound for his efforts, but I wonder whether it's a good idea to have people such as himself plus Pleming and Irwin (and maybe some others) all chasing different people (or worse still, the same people) for money or publicity.

Surely, it would be better if all of the people involved could appoint one person to do the job, otherwise it just gives the impression to potential sponsors that the set-up is too "amateurish" to take seriously. Likewise, I understand a PR company has now been appointed to tackle the job (although no word as to who they are, and if they're likely to be any good) but if this is indeed the case, then it would be counter-productive for anyone else to be doing their job at the same time.

My chief concern was the HLF's input, as regardless of all the admirable work that is being done to seek more donations, it's clear that only HLF are capable of supporting the project sufficiently to get the aircraft back into the air. From the information they've given me, they appear to be quite prepared to look at the provision of more money, but at the same time they also seem reluctant to discuss their views. They tell me that the matter is between them and the project managers which is fair enough, but you'd think that when nearly £3million of Lottery money is involved, it's also something that we all have a right to share?!


Oh well, I can only wish everyone involved the very best of luck - I'll be keeping my fingers crossed!

[BEagle]

Tim, whilst I concur with your view that too many cooks might spoilt the broth, at this stage it does at least show the level of commitment and enthusiasm which is out there.

However, once the funding to continue the programme has been secured, then a more professional PR company would indeed be A Good Thing. Robert, Felicity and the enthusiasts have put in an enormous level of effort, but there now needs to be a dedicated PR team involved.

I see 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space has flogged six dozen EuropHoons to the Saudis - perhaps he might now be persuaded to "stump oop a bit o' brass ferr 't 'owd bomberr?".

[Vulcan 903]

Just for reference, I'm still monitoring progress on the saga, but i don't think there's any point in getting involved with any campaigns or anything like that, as it now looks like there are already too many people doing this already. I congratulate Airsound for his efforts, but I wonder whether it's a good idea to have people such as himself plus Pleming and Irwin (and maybe some others) all chasing different people (or worse still, the same people) for money or publicity.
Surely, it would be better if all of the people involved could appoint one person to do the job, otherwise it just gives the impression to potential sponsors that the set-up is too "amateurish" to take seriously. Likewise, I understand a PR company has now been appointed to tackle the job (although no word as to who they are, and if they're likely to be any good) but if this is indeed the case, then it would be counter-productive for anyone else to be doing their job at the same time.
My chief concern was the HLF's input, as regardless of all the admirable work that is being done to seek more donations, it's clear that only HLF are capable of supporting the project sufficiently to get the aircraft back into the air. From the information they've given me, they appear to be quite prepared to look at the provision of more money, but at the same time they also seem reluctant to discuss their views. They tell me that the matter is between them and the project managers which is fair enough, but you'd think that when nearly £3million of Lottery money is involved, it's also something that we all have a right to share?!
Oh well, I can only wish everyone involved the very best of luck - I'll be keeping my fingers crossed!


Tim

You have to see it from an enthusiast/supporters point of view.

The offical route is FI at VTTS Wimbourne. She is on a 6 week annual holiday in the South France.

This certainly rasies an eybrow with the aircrafts supporters and indeed the signal is sends into the hangar at Bruntingthorpe and outward to other areas monitoring the project.

The supporters Club, has had enough, under the regime, and just like in 1992 - 1993 is playing an active role to the public at large. They have enthusiasm and the will, and under direction could recover this project.

This leaves a void in the corporate area, which to date has not proved successful anyway, under the current policy of "give us a million and you can have a sticker on the aeroplane".

The clear message from the Trustees of VTTS is that they are happy for the current Org to remain otherwise you would have thought they would make the necessary changes. They all seem to be towing the line and feel no guilt if the project folds and the charity is wound up.

One trustee has broken ranks though, and he happens to be in charge of the supporters club who are now a 'splinter' group and receiving pledges.
The total to date I do not have yet.

No one person can yet direct the recovery plan, because that position is currently in post. I am not sure what the current post holder is doing.

I think the trustees will need some sort of security if they bother to turn up at the Rollout on the 31st August at Bruntingthorpe.

Of which - she has declared as invite only. But if anyone wants tickets PM me and I have a source that can get some. And if the trustees are there on the 31st, we can 'ave a word' with them?

[Tim McLelland]

I'm not criticisng anybody - it's commendable that so many people are doing their best to save the project from disaster. I'm just a tad concerned that the creation of so much duplication and confliction will ultimately allow the project to slip between two (or more) proverbial stools.

Likewise, I've been banging-on about getting another PR company for months so I'm delighted that they have finally done so. I just find it odd that Dr Pleming seems reluctant to even discuss the subject and nobody seems prepared to say who the company is, whether they're going to charge yet more money for their efforts, or if they're any good. Having had one bad experience with a PR company, one hopes that this time things will work-out better.

But as I keep saying, the key to all of this is HLF and no matter how much fund raising continues, or how much the PR company might (or might not) achieve for the future, it's the short-term task of getting the aircraft back into the air that counts, and clearly it's HLF that has the power to do this. Although it's good that the guys at Bruntingthorpe are evidently trying to "take charge" of the project, I hope that they will also do their best to come between the Trust members and the HLF to ensure that HLF funny understand the enthusiasm for this project. My dark vision is of a meeting between HLF and Felicity Irwin where she allows HLF to walk-away from the project. If all the comments and rumours about her lack of committment are correct, it could well happen, and if it does, then I fear the project is well and truly dead.

As I've said, I'm right behind anyone who tries to save this project, but my personal view is that all efforts should be directed towards HLF right now. Anything else just isn't going to work, and if all the rumours are right, I'm equally concerned that HLF should not be allowed to simply act on the advice/attitude of the Trust, as I get the impression that some of the Trust team are wanting to wash their hands of the project. When so much Lottery money is involved, we shouldn't allow the Trust to dictate the aircraft's future any longer, as in essence it's not their aircraft - it's the HLF's and therefore as Lottery punters, it's ours!

[Vulcan 903]

Tim
Sounds about right.
Dr P is currently resting on doctors orders. Andrew Edmondson is the hangar manager and will be there on the 31st for Roll Out.

I spoke to Robert a couple of weeks ago, he assures me the HLF are behind the project and are being understanding to the current problems, though no extra money will be given on top of the allocated grant.

So we are back to getting 'the house in order' closure of the chapter. A pause, then start the next one.

[danohagan]

From http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=1;t=20434;st=20;&#entry257963 this thread on the UKAR forum, it appears another Vulcan, XM603 at Woodford, is in dire straits too...

Not a good year for Vulcans.

[iank]

But as I keep saying, the key to all of this is HLF and no matter how much fund raising continues, or how much the PR company might (or might not) achieve for the future, it's the short-term task of getting the aircraft back into the air that counts, and clearly it's HLF that has the power to do this. Although it's good that the guys at Bruntingthorpe are evidently trying to "take charge" of the project, I hope that they will also do their best to come between the Trust members and the HLF to ensure that HLF funny understand the enthusiasm for this project. My dark vision is of a meeting between HLF and Felicity Irwin where she allows HLF to walk-away from the project. If all the comments and rumours about her lack of committment are correct, it could well happen, and if it does, then I fear the project is well and truly dead.

As I've said, I'm right behind anyone who tries to save this project, but my personal view is that all efforts should be directed towards HLF right now. Anything else just isn't going to work, and if all the rumours are right, I'm equally concerned that HLF should not be allowed to simply act on the advice/attitude of the Trust, as I get the impression that some of the Trust team are wanting to wash their hands of the project. When so much Lottery money is involved, we shouldn't allow the Trust to dictate the aircraft's future any longer, as in essence it's not their aircraft - it's the HLF's and therefore as Lottery punters, it's ours!

A nightmare scenario, but certainly possible after some of the 'name calling' that some of the Trust have had to endure over the last weeks. Depending on what clauses the HLF has in place in the contract to the Project, they need to be made aware that whilst disappointed, the majority of the project supporters do not want the aircraft reduced to a pile of scrap.

I would think it very possible that with the support of the guys at Wellesbourne, Southend & Bruntingthorpe - '558 could be returned to taxiable condition and the Waltons would be happy for it to remain although not neccesarily taking up the hangar!

[Vulcan 903]

" For the first time in Six, yes, SIX years, XH558 Vulcan has had her landing gear fully restored and she is finally standing tall and proud. The team have worked extra hard on this part of the project and we are all so very grateful."

[f4aviation]

1,000 e-mails now sent to the HLF in just over a week from the Air-Scene UK (http://www.air-scene-uk.com/hangar/2006/xh558/xh558.htm) webpage - if you haven't added your support, do so now! :ok:

[derekl]

1,001 now.

Having seen Vulcans fly myself, I really believe that this is a treat that should not be denied to future generations of aviation enthusiasts.

A truly awe-inspring sight and sound.

[Tim McLelland]

I would think it very possible that with the support of the guys at Wellesbourne, Southend & Bruntingthorpe - '558 could be returned to taxiable condition and the Waltons would be happy for it to remain although not neccesarily taking up the hangar!

Well this is what will probably happen unless HLF step-in. As I've said to HLF, unless they provide enough cash to fly the aircraft, not only will we (and they) never know if the aircraft could be sponsored or not, but the aircraft is doomed to slowly rot at Bruntingthorpe as it would cost a fortune to dismantle, move and re-assemble, and the Waltons clearly couldn't afford to hangar the aircraft permanently for free. So unless HLF provides more cash, they've effectively spent nearly £3million of Lottery money to enable XH558 to sit outside and rot, save for an occasional taxy run - something the aircraft had already been doing for years. It's a criminal waste of money.

[BEagle]

'558 is now down off the jacks, standing on her own legs for the first time in many years!

See you at the roll out on the 31st!

[Tim McLelland]

I've reached something of a dead-end in my investigations. Although the HLF people seem very approachable and insist that nothing has been ruled-out as yet, they say that they cannot enter into discussions about the project, as it's a matter for private discussion between themselves and the Trust.

All very well, but when we have tales about Felicity Irwin wanting to effectively abandon the project, you wonder what will be said behind closed doors. The frustrating aspect of this is that we seem to be left without any means of either knowing what is being proposed, what is being said, or what the Trust will say if HLF refuse to offer any more cash.

I find this position quite remarkable when the project has relied on donations from members of the public and money from lottery donations. You'd think that we would all be entitled to know exactly what discussions are taking place. As ever, the whole project seems to be disappearing behind closed doors...

[Mike51]

You'd think that we would all be entitled to know exactly what discussions are taking place. As ever, the whole project seems to be disappearing behind closed doors...
So no change there then.

After the way the project PR has been handled since day one, are you really surprised at any of this? :confused:

[Tim McLelland]

Nope, not surprised, just frustrated! HLF's official (quotable) line is:-

"HLF's relationship with the Trust remains positive. We are unable to comment further due to ongoing negotiations with the Trust and other interested parties. The Fund is very aware of the public interest in the project and remains committed to ensuring that the best possible conclusion is reached for all directly involved in the project and the many lottery players who continue to express interest."

Make of this what you will.
I suppose it depends on your definition of "best possible concluison". I still think the best route would be to apply direct pressure on HLF to at least finance the project to the stage where the aircraft can be flown out of Bruntingthorpe to Duxford. At least this would give the aircraft a fighting chance of preservation, rather than being left to rot at Bruntingthorpe. I just hope the rumours about certain Trust members are wrong and that they are not proposing to simply let HLF walk-away from the project. Shame on them if they do.

[A2QFI]

Just went to the bottom of a page, to see who was on line, and Dr Pleming is among us! Profile quoted a "tvoc" website address and that is is about it. He hasn't made any posts (I think) let us hope he is doing some reading!