heels on the floor?

[bonzo157]

hi.

a question about where you put your heels during various phases of flight.. (especially during takeoffs and landings..)

putting them on the floor makes it easier for rudder control, especially for an engine out training session in a simulator.(or actual!!!)

(but on the other hand, during takeoff, what if the autobrakes should fail??)

any feedback will be appreciated...

[Rainboe]

Use this as a mantra: "Keep your heels on the floor unless you are braking for landing, or parking!" Period. No discussion OK? Having sat next to someone who twisted themselves in their seat so they could apply lots of rudder in a strong crosswind take-off, and in fact applied lots of asymetric braking instead, and blowing 4 tyres on a 747 after an abandoned take-off, there should be no discussion. At times of high workload, if you lift those feet up, you will press brakes without realising it.

[oldebloke]

Rainbow,do you agree the Captn should have his feet near the brakes for the Reject/abort,or are you relying on Autobrake to initiate the stop..
I believe Boeing has stipulated that a FULL manual braking exceeds autobrake effort??
Cheers:ok:

[oldebloke]

The only times we HAD heels on the floor was performing 'Power backs'from the gate(B727/Dc9):O

[Empty Cruise]

Oldbloke,

As far as the 73 goes, RTO = max brake pressure, no deceleration compensation. Can't beat it - unless it doesn't kick in, of course :{

Empty

[Rainboe]

I think you keep yer feet totally on the floor on take-off. With all the bouncing around, you're going to hit the brakes inadvertently sometimes. If you abandon, with selecting idle and full reverse, you aren't going to get the brakes on as quick as autobrakes. Autobrake will give you full braking whereas whilst you are struggling to keep straight and cancel reverse if you start drifting, I'd be very surprised if you coould sustain maximum manual brakes. Make life easy- leave autobrakes on and take over when ready. But I have seen someone apply brake on take-off through lifting their foot up (nobody was aware at the time), and lost those tyres as a result

[oldebloke]

OLD School I guess Rainbow,At the end (66-03)I was on the A320,and advocated the use of Auto brakes for the Reject(YOW high weight,rejected for the cargo door warning at 96knots,stopped on a dime .Brake temps at 480),but I cringe a bit at not having the feet near the brakes in case the magic didn't work the day you need them..Hard to explain to the CP..Other than that I'm it total agreement re their initial efficiency:(

[earnest]

On some aircraft like the A320 series if you have an engine failure before 72 kts it can be difficult to stay on the runway without the prompt use of differential braking. The autobrake will not have activated and full rudder is not too effective at these speeds. It’s an interesting demonstration in the sim.
Put your feet where the manual tells you to put them. Modern pedals tend to be better designed than some fitted to the older types. I follow Rainboe's logic and can’t argue with his experiences on the 747 - some older military types had similar problems - but I put my feet fully on the pedals. I still have my old habit of applying steering input with my heels, though.

[18-Wheeler]

Boeing highly recommend that the pilot has his/her feet completely on the pedals for takeoff. ".... unless you have very large feet so you can keep your heels on the floor and still work the brakes."
(Something worded like that anyway)

[AerocatS2A]

What's wrong with puting your heels on the floor and then IF an abort is required, pop them up onto the brakes? The auto-brakes if fitted and armed can initiate the braking, then you can continue with manual braking.

[punkalouver]

Use this as a mantra: "Keep your heels on the floor unless you are braking for landing, or parking!" Period. No discussion OK?


Time for a discussion O.K. Are you sure you have thought through all scenarios before making such a statement which appears to apply to all aircraft? I suggest you read this accident report and think about the hazards of making grand statements without being willing to listen to counter arguements:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2004/a04c0016/a04c0016.asp

For those that don't have time I will quote some important parts, keeping in mind that when the aircraft landed, it veered to the left due to a frozen brake.

"Because the FO's feet were positioned on the rudder pedals with the heels on the floor, they could not be shifted upward to apply the right brake while pressure was being applied to the right rudder pedal. Neutralizing the pedals to permit shifting the feet upward also would have exacerbated the yaw."

"The pressure exerted by the FO's foot against the right rudder pedal prevented repositioning the foot higher on the pedal to operate the brake. The FO was unable to operate the brake for directional control because he was unable to release the pressure on the rudder pedal without losing the directional control provided by the rudder."

"Although the practice of pilots placing their feet on the rudder pedals with their heels on the floor reduces the risk of tire damage from an unintentional brake application, the practice creates a risk that pilots will not be able to use the brakes to maintain directional control."

[Rainboe]

You make a good point, but I think from my personal experience and what I have actually witnessed on a 747, there is a greater hazard from unintentional brake application through covering the brake pedal with one's foot than there is the hazard of not being able to lift one's foot because one is pressing for all one's worth on the rudder pedal. It takes a moment to lift both feet a couple of inches. Being aware of both sides, it is up to Pruners to decide, but I'll tell you, it was ever so embarrassing for the pilot involved to try and explain to the Flight Manager why we abandoned take-off with 400 passengers and blew 4 tyres! And no, it was not me what done it!

[PPRuNe Towers]

I really, really do like to keep things simple.

I was trained on my first jet (Bac 1-11) to Rainboe's mantra and believed.

However as experience was gained, size of the aircraft increased, derates and assumed temp became king or operated off entirely legal cleared runways with snowbanks reducing width I've recognised exactly the discussion points punklouver raises. For a simple soul it is difficult to reconcile as is the research regarding the measurements of unknowing assymetric manual braking.

Wing mounted twinjets: Forget ticking box with the real mens' V1 cut, low speed failure and abort in the sim recently folks?

Rob

[AirRabbit]

What's wrong with puting your heels on the floor and then IF an abort is required, pop them up onto the brakes? The auto-brakes if fitted and armed can initiate the braking, then you can continue with manual braking.
Very easy to say -- not so very easy to do. Been there and done that -- and I've got the dollars off coupon for a return visit if I choose to returen (no thanks). Attempting to apply brakes while "popping" your feet up higher on the pedal will very likely get your shins a rather abrupt introduction to the bottom of the instrument panel. You want to talk about #$^$ pain? Try that on for size -- believe me, you'll only need once to make you a believer. (Been there too, unfortunately) Plus the fact that every extra second you take, the airplane moves farther down the runway! And if you have a crosswind or asymmetrical thrust for which you need rudder correction, you don't want to choose between going straight and going slower - and you probably don't even want to compromise. As wide as some runways are -- they're not very wide at 100+ knots!

I have always practiced, and I have always taught the students I've had, prior to takeoff you adjust your seat and adjust the rudder pedals (where you can) so that you can get full rudder pedal travel AND get full, maximum brake AT THE SAME TIME. Not many really understand what "full maximum brake application" really means until they've had to use it. It has to be at least what it takes to set the parking brakes and sufice it to say that if your butt is still in the seat, you don't have enough brakes! The best way to do it is to get the best mechanical advantage you can on the brake pedal -- that means your foot has to be well up on the pedal -- no heels on the floor.

Sorry, but if you wanted to be that lazy, you should have taken up another line of work. Of course, this also requires that every single rudder pedal input you make, MUST be done with your heel - not your entire foot. Shoot, you learned to steer with your feet and fly with either hand, you should be able to make rudder pedal input corrections with your heel!

The bottom line is this. IF, a very big word, if, ... but IF you ever need to reject a heavy airplane, or one that is operating right at the limits that day, and you have to do it right at the decision point, believe me, you don't want your heels on the floor! You'll have all the time in the world, after the bird is comfortably in the air and you're cleaned up, to readjust your seat for comfort. Don't forget to put that seat, and the rudder pedals, back in those same pre-takeoff positions prior to landing.

Fancy, time saving conveniences, like autopilots and autobrakes are a wonderful tool and should be used whenever and where-ever appropriate. But if you decide to let the airplane fly you instead of the other way around, just please let me know before hand so that I can get off.
________
AirRabbit

[Charles Darwin]

Rainbow,do you agree the Captn should have his feet near the brakes for the Reject/abort,or are you relying on Autobrake to initiate the stop..
I believe Boeing has stipulated that a FULL manual braking exceeds autobrake effort??
Cheers:ok:

All Boeing aircraft put maximum pressure in at RTO. Must not be confused with MAX AUTO, that is so much less.:ok:

[Intruder]

I just got out of the sim (747 Classic) this AM with a warmup session for my PC scheduled tomorrow. When it got to the point where I expected a rejected takeoff, I actually thought back to this discussion.
The sim has autobrakes (not all our airplanes have Takeoff Autobrakes, though). The scenario is what I consider to be the most difficult -- high-speed reject when the F/O is making the T/O. Our procedure has the Captain on the brakes & throttles until V1, and the F/O on the controls. Also, I am expected to override the autobrakes by using maximum manual braking.
I consciously put my heels (attached to size 11 feet in soft-soled shoes) on the floor. At 120+ KIAS (V1 was 149) we lost an outboard engine. I had no problem applying the brakes and steering with the pedals; I slid my feet up the pedals without thinking about it, and my toes stopped at the top bars of the brake pedals. Even with an autospoiler failure (reach over and manually deploy the spoilers before going to reverse) the procedure went without problem.
FWIW, I fly landings with the balls of my feet on the bottom of the rudder pedals and my heels consciously lifted off the floor. I think this gives me better ruddr feel and control for crosswind corrections. Once I confirm deceleration via autobrakes after touchdown, I continue to "fly" the rudder pedals until it's time to slide my feet up to tap the brakes to disengage the autobrakes, and then brake manually.

As for the TSB excerpt above, I don't know what may have "prevented repositioning" of the pilot's feet. Our pedals are quite smooth after many years of wear, so sliding my feet up the pedals -- even with soft, rubber-soled shoes -- is not a problem. I have the strength and reach to put both pedals full down even if my toes catch below the top bar of the brake pedal, though I feel I have better control if my toes are "wrapped around the bar with the balls of me feet just below it.

[AirRabbit]

With a majority of the runways that are in use today there probably is a “fudge factor” that will allow slower reaction times or less aggressive application of wheel brakes. Certainly the technology can now be depended upon for a lot – and autobrakes is just one of the many such techno-gems available for aviation consumption.
But, if you go back and read the accident reports, talk to some of the guys who have experienced it, for real, the other side of the where-do-you-put-your-heels discussion becomes clearer, at least to me - perhaps just to me. Admittedly, the times when you need full rudder and full brakes simultaneously are very few and very far between. And I’m sure that there are many pilots who have retired after a full career and never had to reject a takeoff. Good on ‘em.
Intruder, not to pick on your 747 sim session, but there are two issues that jump out at me. First, you sound like you’re a pretty good-sized chap and therefore probably able to “man-handle” (is there such a word as “foot-handle?”) the brakes and the rudder without too much trouble. Unfortunately, many of us are, shall I say, physically challenged in the height (and maybe not so challenged in the weight – I remember that I do have toes; saw them in the mirror just last week) department – but you know what I mean. Second, in your practice session, I would presume (yes, I know what happens when I do that, but…what the heck) that you were probably not at a runway/gross weight/pressure altitude that put you in a balanced field circumstance, and with a V1 speed of 149, rejecting at 120+ is attention getting – but not riveting. Jack up the weight, use a shorter runway, run up the temperature, and have the world disintegrate at V1 – 2 knots. Throw a reasonable crosswind in from the failed engine side and remove the “I’m-only-in-the-simulator” comfort factor and it just may be that you, too, would become a believer.
I know that my rantings are likely not going to change a career’s worth of habit patterns, but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that. Like I said earlier, to me (and, again, perhaps only to me) it would seem to be a “cop-out” to put all my trust in a series of automatic systems and lazily rush down the runway, counting on all the auto-systems to keep my butt outa trouble. Maybe one day we’ll get to that point. But, when we do, I’d submit that the pilot would be deemed surplus weight and eliminated from the equation. What could possibly go wrong…go wrong…go wrong…go wrong…

[punkalouver]

As for the TSB excerpt above, I don't know what may have "prevented repositioning" of the pilot's feet. Our pedals are quite smooth after many years of wear, so sliding my feet up the pedals -- even with soft, rubber-soled shoes -- is not a problem.

I suspect that not all airplanes have rudder pedals exactly the same as a 747-200.

[Centaurus]

Heels on the floor every time. During abort training in the 737 simulator, the scenario was set such that a well handled abort using manual braking and both reverse thrust levers would stop the aircraft with 100 feet to spare. The crew consisted of two Asian cadets. One consistently pulled up within the runway while the other always over-ran by a hundred yards or more despite completely correct abort actions.

By chance I happened to look at the brake pedal pressures on the instructor panel during the take off run and saw the pressures cycling rapidly between 100 psi to occasionally 300psi. The cadet who over-ran the runway on each abort was unknowingly applying brakes during the take off run because his feet were high up on the pedals. This extended the runway length needed to V1 and invalidated the abort.

It was impossible for the instructor or the PNF to actually see the cadet's feet applying the pressure because it was dark in the cockpit and in any case it is not the sort of thing you look for in the middle of a take off run. To get the point across, I got the PNF to sit at the instructor panel and observe the pedal pressures as his colleague acccelerated. He could now understand the problem and conveyed what he had seen to the PF cadet who believed him. Previously the PF had sworn blind he was not touching the brakes...Loss of face etc.

The danger of inadvertant light brake application during the take off run, far outweighs the very remote possibility of an abort just at V1 together with a miniscule delay in sliding feet up the pedals to achieve max manual braking on a limiting runway. RTO is best of the lot but inadvertant dragging of the brakes by light pedal pressure due feet up on the pedals on take off can ruin your whole day. Performance calculations go out of the window. Worse still, you cannot pick it happening during the take off accelleration phase because there are no gauges for pedal pressures.

Following this observation on that occasion, I began to monitor pedal pressure more closely during normal take offs and sure enough it happened on more than a few occasions over several weeks on different pilots.

[dusk2dawn]

Re my 767 Advisory Information (as issued by Boeing) the Normal Configuration Landing Distance, Fl 30, dry RWY, Max Manual distance is 810' shorter than using Max Autobrake. Also I cannot find any penalties for u/s autobrakes.

Below is a picture from the 767-200 AFM:

http://www.marilu.org/rto-proc.jpg

[AirRabbit]

Following this observation on that occasion, I began to monitor pedal pressure more closely during normal take offs and sure enough it happened on more than a few occasions over several weeks on different pilots.
Quick analysis -- improperly trained pilots --OR-- properly trained pilots not diligently applying what they learned.
I'm sure that many seasoned simulator instructors have seen very well trained crew members "relaxing" a bit in the simulator, because, after all (at least to these few), it is "only" a simulator.

[Rainboe]

It doesn't take 'relaxing' or not flying the sim like you would a real aeroplane- I think people do handle sims just the same as the real toy. It takes heavy concentration on something else- in this case a take-off, and you don't notice that you're pressing on a brake inadvertently. How many people have to do it before it's believed it is perfectly possible to press the damn thing without being aware? And anyone can do it- long term experienced Captain or junior pilots. Just make sure if you think you are good enough never to do it yourself that better pilots than thee have been on the FM's carpet for doing just that!

[JW411]

Heels on the floor for me every time - it does not take a nanosecond to get full brakes on if necessary I can assure you.

I have seen too many pilots inadvertently applying just a little bit of brake on take-off with their feet off the floor without realising it.

Apart from lengthening the TORR this practice does nothing for brake and tyre wear and raises brake temperatures (especially with carbon brakes) which scarcely helps in the event of an abandoned take-off.

[Dream Land]

On the floor for takeoff, fully up on rudder pedals for landing (airbus).:}

[Centaurus]

DreamLand. Fully up on the pedals for landing in an AirBus? Why is that? Unless on a slippery limiting runway when autobrakes come into their own, I would have thought there is no need to touch the brakes until needed as the aircraft slowed down under the influence of ground spoilers and reverse thrust. Typically 60-80 knots depending on runway length of course. That said I have not flown an Air Bus.

[Dream Land]

I prefer to be in that position for a smoother transition, usually manual braking, I know for a Boeing this would be a no no.

[rubik101]

While we are on the subject; what do our correspondants think to the PNF resting his/her feet on the rudder pedals during Take-off. I was told by one miscreant who flew with me recently that he was told to put his feet there in the event of and RTO!!!! If I had my steel ruler with me I would have done as my instructor in the good old RAF would have done and rapped his kneecap!
Just where do people get the idea that they should 'follow through' on the rudders during Take-off? Why not 'follow through' on the joystick/controls? Why not 'follow through' on the throttles? Why have PF/PNF at all if you are going to have your PNF 'following through' on everything I do?
My feet rest on the floor with my toes on the pedals, my PNF will have his feet firmly planted flat on the floor! period!!!

[Dream Land]

Yes I agree, quite annoying during taxi operations too, mostly from my eastern block comrades. It is how they are taught at Aeroflot.

[Centaurus]

Agree. Nothing more distracting than a PNF (whether a check captain or F/O rank) "guarding" the controls. You apply corrective rudder during take off or landing and you see out of the corner of your eye the other clown's legs moving. Or more annoying when you see their hands creeping surreptiously towards the control wheel approaching the flare. Or they ever so casually rest their hands on the flap lever or MCP speed or heading knob in readiness for a lightning fast selection. Still worse someone who reaches over with his hand towards the gear lever as VR commences. I wonder if the gurus who teach CRM ever discuss these very minor irritations described here that in turn can blow up into a major "Leave the bloody lever alone until I ask for it".

[Denti]

Its SOP with my airline that both pilots are required to have their feet on the controls (heels on the floor) at all times during taxy, take off and landing. Guess different flight ops have different SOPs.

[Intruder]

AirRabbit

Intruder, not to pick on your 747 sim session, but there are two issues that jump out at me. First, you sound like you’re a pretty good-sized chap and therefore probably able to “man-handle” (is there such a word as “foot-handle?”) the brakes and the rudder without too much trouble. Unfortunately, many of us are, shall I say, physically challenged in the height (and maybe not so challenged in the weight – I remember that I do have toes; saw them in the mirror just last week) department – but you know what I mean. Second, in your practice session, I would presume (yes, I know what happens when I do that, but…what the heck) that you were probably not at a runway/gross weight/pressure altitude that put you in a balanced field circumstance, and with a V1 speed of 149, rejecting at 120+ is attention getting – but not riveting. Jack up the weight, use a shorter runway, run up the temperature, and have the world disintegrate at V1 – 2 knots. Throw a reasonable crosswind in from the failed engine side and remove the “I’m-only-in-the-simulator” comfort factor and it just may be that you, too, would become a believer.
I know that my rantings are likely not going to change a career’s worth of habit patterns, but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that.
AR:

I'm 6' and 175 -- probably fleet average. My left foot is an honest 11, but the right is at least a half size smaller... ;)

I failed to mention that the wind was 90 deg adverse at 20 knots in the sim; "they" ALWAYS do that! FWIW, I've "landed" the sim in 50 kt crosswinds just to see what it would look like (VERY extreme in the 747!). I saw 40 for real in the 744 a few years ago going into Prestwick. The Check Airman in the left seat let me fly it -- very exciting!

As for the height-challenged, they only need to move back the rudder pedals and/or move up the seat. My colleagues run the gamut of seat height and leg length...

I'm sure we could discuss the V1-2 kt situation ad nauseum, especially if the reversers failed as well. I suppose the individual technique depends as much on the Pilot's prior experience as well as his current airplane (recognizing that SOME habits must be unlearned). But for me, after gliders and taildraggers with heel brakes and aircraft-carrier-based jets and a few others, the heels-on-deck method works for me. Since some airplanes demanded it and none prohibited it, it became my habit. For others, the "cocked and locked" pose with toes ready to attack the brake pedals may work as well.

OTOH, I've seen blown tires on the catapult as well as on the trap from those who tried the heels-up pose on the boat...

[Dream Land]

Yes, I would like to add that until arriving on the Airbus my heels would always be on the floor so as not to scuff or blow out tires during rudder only inputs. As far as the other pilot following up on the rudders, I guess it's whatever your used to.

[Centaurus]

Air Rabbitt says:
but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that.
............................................................ ...................................

Refer to my first post about the chappie that over-ran the runway during the abort because he was unaware during the take off run he was applying intermittent brakes. I know it is hard to believe a pilot could fall for that, but the scary part is that neither PF or PNF or the instructor picked the fault during the take off run. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it happens every day somewhere around the world - ie shoes touching the top of the brake pedals.

[AirRabbit]

Well, I guess its obvious that I’m not going to convince many (if any) of those here – and equally obvious is that a pilot’s personal preferences are about as personal as it can get. Centaurus refers me back to his post citing the pilot that “over-ran the runway during an abort because he was unaware during the take off run he was applying intermittent brakes” in response to my rhetorical comment that I couldn’t understand why someone would presume that a properly trained pilot would be prone to mis-apply brakes when making a rudder pedal input. He further asserts that he “wouldn't be at all surprised if it happens every day somewhere around the world – i.e., shoes touching the top of the brake pedals.”
I know Centaurus, and I certainly don’t challenge his background or his expertise when it comes to aviation matters. I am positively sure (uh, that would make it surely sure?) that the situation he quotes happened just the way he described it. Now, however, after saying that, I, too, went to a simulator last week. Actually, I wangled the use of three different simulators – for three different aircraft types (CRJ200, B737-800, and B767-300). I convinced three other pilots to join me in my activities. We did as Centaurus had done, except I asked the simulator technician to print out the brake pedal pressure and relative brake pedal position for each takeoff. I made a series of takeoffs and each of the three pilots along with me made a series of takeoffs in each of the simulators. I did not ask any of the pilots what “technique” they used when taking off, I merely asked them to takeoff, but I advised each of them to anticipate a relatively strong crosswind, and mentioned that they might “expect” an up-wind engine failure very close to V1. None of them knew that the brake pedal pressure or position was being recorded or printed.
The results were that in no case did any one involved mis-apply brakes during the takeoff run. That knowledge from the rudder pedal pressure/position print-outs. I will say that Centaurus is correct in that it IS difficult to see where the pilot has his feet positioned on the rudder pedals if you just look at the rudder pedals. But what was obvious, was the seat position relative to the control column. In 2 cases, the pilot was positioned “rather close” to the column, to the extent that I don’t believe any further forward movement of the seat would have been possible and still allow for an adequate space for aft movement during rotation. The other obvious thing I noticed in both of those cases was that after V1, I could see each pilot move his feet toward the floor of the simulator; apparently moving his feet to a “heels-on-the-floor” position. The third pilot (a rather tall chap – 6 feet 2 inches) did not have his seat positioned as close to the column as did the other two pilots. Also, I did not notice an overt movement of his foot position after takeoff during any of the times we actually took off. For information, about 70% of the takeoffs were uninterrupted, and about 30% were interrupted with an abort at very close to V1 speed. The weight in each case was very close to max gross for the conditions.
At the end of the morning, I did de-brief each of my “subjects” on what I was doing, and why. The third pilot (the big guy) told me that his procedure was to put his feet on the rudder pedal with the rudder pedal “bar” (located at the bottom of the pedal and around which the pedal rotates) at the top of the heel of his shoe. His opinion was that he had adequate leverage to apply maximum braking from that position without having to move his feet, and that he maintained his feet in that position until the airplane was accelerated and cleaned up for climb, at which time he moved his heels to the floor as well. We never ventured that far into the takeoff profile, and I never saw his feet move. In each of the other cases, the pilots told me that they placed their feet higher up on the rudder pedals because they were anticipating a high speed abort with a strong crosswind. One of these pilots told me that he did not usually place his feet that high on the rudder pedal unless the crosswind was rather stiff.
The point here is that I know these 3 pilots were properly trained initially. Two of them had been my students (one almost 30 years ago) and one was the student of a very close colleague of mine. They didn’t have to be told where to place their feet. They didn’t have to be told to remember to make rudder corrections with their heel. They flew as I would have expected them to fly – ready for an occurrence on the runway during takeoff, that no one really expects to see.
Yes, I know this is a very limited “research” event and therefore, isn't valid much beyond personal opinion. However, what happened is what happened. And I would surmise from the postings here that the group of pilots I used are not in the majority; at least if one can presume that a representative sampling of pilots are members of this forum and have voiced an opinion on this thread.
I also acknowledge Centaurus’ statement that a really serious event causing an abort to occur just prior to V1 is a very remote possibility. But it does happen. It’s happened to me twice. The first time caught me unaware – and I vowed to never to let that happen again. When an even more serious event occurred a couple of years later, I was ready. Please understand that I have no intention of getting involved in a “one-upsmanship” discussion (You think that was bad? Let me tell you about the time that I…), because I’m sure I would get buried by the experiences had by many. But in my very own situation, had I not been ready, there is little doubt in my mind that the consequences would have been quite grave. The deed was reviewed by a series of major command authorities and the conclusion was that “any delay beyond that which the crew took would have most probably resulted in the aircraft departing the departure end of the runway, and possibly beyond the 1000-foot overrun area, down the embankment, and into the small business district in that location.” A fully loaded KC135 can carry a lot of JP4 and the fire would have been spectacular. I am glad that it didn’t happen. I’m glad I learned from an earlier abort. What I do is what I do. What I teach is what I teach. The students I’ve had learn what I teach and then they are free to fly the way they best know and feel and function. At least I know I’ve given them the best information I could, and I’ve determined that they CAN and DO function correctly when required to do so. For that I am very grateful and somewhat humbled by that understanding.

[Centaurus]

Good post Air Rabbit and thoroughly readable. On another matter (although vaguely related) I used to fly with my old Commanding Officer when we both left the military and flew Fokker Friendships together on navigation aid flight calibration duties. He never gave a pre-take off briefing of any type. I asked him why. He said we both had SID plates in front of us - we could both read English and there was no point in repeating what was already in print in front of us. As far as an engine failure brief, he felt the same way. His point was that both of us were qualified on type - we knew the drills - we knew the SOP from the Ops Manual and he could not possibly brief on every conceivable emergency that could occur from TOGA to after take off checklist, please. In any case (he said), he might have to deviate from established emergency procedures and he would only decide on that when the event happened. He was indeed a man of few words - but I tell you what - he was a first class pilot.

Contrast his sentiments with that of current airline procedures where verbalising (briefing by talking) by rote of almost every facet of flying the aeroplane is SOP and ensures it's all in the CVR to keep the lawyers happy.

[AirRabbit]

Centaurus -- my friend -- once again, your observations go way beyond the observable.
I, too, have wondered if all the "rote" briefings would even be remembered (let alone followed) by many who utter them out of habit rather than intention. I guess that with today's reliability with the mechanical functions of almost everything, from engines to avionics, pilots may have an advantage in that the "odds" are with them, rather than against them. I think that when you and I were still trying to figure out which way to turn to keep the tail of the needle where it was supposed to be and the reliability of systems weren't all that great, we learned that when we briefed something, we were mentally and verbally describing what it was that we were going to do. And, unfortunately, there were enough times that the reliability of those systems allowed us to "test" whether or not we really were going to do what we briefed.
I still enjoy our exchanges here, and I always look forward to your very experienced voice of reason and expertise. When the time comes that I cease to learn from others (regardless of their background, their opinion, or their talent) is the time that I should get out of the cockpit and relegate myself to one of the lesser forms of self flagellation. But selfishly, I hope that day doesn't come too quickly -- as I dearly love this business!
Best Regards,
AirRabbit

[gigi116]

Depending on brakes system, if you don't put your heels on the floor while on touchdown , you could burn a lot of tires.