When did BMA A320 pilots get an ATC licence???? [Archive]

rolaaand

20th Mar 2006, 19:54

I am onside with danceswithsheep regarding this issue. In the past year ( twice in the past 2 days)there have been 3 or 4 instances of pilots getting REALLY shirty on the frequency when being asked, no scratch that, TOLD to reduce speed. Every single time it has been British Midland Airbus pilots. Actually I'm kind of hoping that it has been the same pilot on all occasions otherwise there are several of them working for Midland who have an attitude towards ATC that is very detrimental to safety. The one yesterday phoned and spoke to my colleague who he had berated on the frequency and proceeded to explain that because he was transferred first from the previous sector then he should have been ahead of the Easyjet blah blah...we can do 340knots blah blah...we were held on the ground at Heathrow for 40 minutes blah blah etc.
My colleague had commited the terrible crime of slowing this king of the skies down to the crawling speed of 300knots,hardly excessive.
The Scottish TMA, regardless of what some pilots think, is a pretty busy bit of airspace these days,and you will get slowed down very early sometimes. This however is no excuse for questioning the controller and undermining his authority and control of the sector. How would you like it if a tower controller piped up half way through your take off roll to impolitely question how much rudder you were applying-you'd feel like telling them to f£$% off and stop telling you how to do your job.It feels exactly the same on the other side of the mike if you question what I'm doing. By all means say something if you feel safety is compromised but for chrissakes if I slow you down don't come back with abuse or smart arse replies, it helps no-one. The feeling about this is running quite deep on my watch at Scottish just now so I'm afraid that because of one or two moronic individuals the rest of you British Midland Airbus bods can pretty much forget about early turns, direct routes or high speed.
Sort it out BMA, everyone who is either on the frequency or listening to it hears this sh!t and it does you no favours,unsafe and unproffesional.

Scott Voigt

20th Mar 2006, 20:07

Just use a bit of Chicago phraseology on them <grin>... Capt. the number is 250 either slow to it or turn to it, your choice...

regards

Scott

danceswithsheep

20th Mar 2006, 20:37

Scott,
i think the answer here will be the same, When my thinking time is taken up with stupid questioning, then safety is compromised. No-one is more important than anyone else and do these certain pilots believe its going to get better by questioning us????
BMA, I have nothing against you but if its neck and neck and a throw of the coin...................................................you have a guess.
PS.........BMA........would you like me to tell you when to put the gear down????????????????????????????FU:mad: kwits

eastern wiseguy

20th Mar 2006, 20:43

Why not post the question on the "Questions" or "Tech Log" forum....you might get a response to your query there.:ok:

happ1ness

20th Mar 2006, 20:53

Would these guys benefit from a liaison visit to ATC ???
In my experience not enough pilots come to see the problems
ATC have. As said silly questions then arise which can and do compromise safety. Having said this the majority of pilots appear to really understand the problems ATC can have but just like Fam flights these days nobody is getting very many of either ????

Bern Oulli

20th Mar 2006, 20:55

An old colleague of mine from yesteryear, now departed to that great tower in the sky, Paddy Jennings, had a wonderful response when pilots tried to do the ATC. In his soft Irish accent he would say, "You just fly your aeroplane Sorr, and I'll control the traffic and we'll get on just fine". A gentleman if ever there was one.

Talkdownman

20th Mar 2006, 21:06

Aaah. Paddy. Stansted '68. Fond memories.........
BMA A320s. So that's where the Scot Airways pilots go:rolleyes:

radar707

20th Mar 2006, 22:53

Had a similar problem a while ago with a BMA airbus inbound to PH, the captain thought it was his divine "wright" to question the sequence into Glasgow from TLA sector and then complain to me on radar about slowing him down again.
The Glasgow based crews are generally excellent and I've never had problems with them since they actually seem to understand the problems that controllers in the Scottish TMA have.

There is a "wright" way of doing things (especially if you're Heathrow based and have a chip on your shoulder the size of Ben Lomond) and then there's the ATC way of doing things.

When I'm working, the ATC way wins every time.

Always the option of saying "OK keep high speed and expect to hold at LANAK / TWEED" and a quick call to PF / PH

Gonzo

20th Mar 2006, 23:05

Chatting with colleagues, it seems this type of unfortunate exchange is getting more frequent, perhaps as ever more pressure is put on aircrews for punctuality and cost savings.

Just one from the past week:
"Tower, ABCxxx with you holding short at N4E"
"ABCxxx, roger, hold short of runway 09R, I will call you back"
"We can keep it moving if you'd like"
"ABCxxx, negative, hold short of runway 09R"
"We'll be really quick"
"ABCxxx, negative, read back hold short of runway 09R"

The only thing we can do is CA4114 it, and/or highlight the individual callsigns and dates to the airlines' ATC liaison.

Plumaveloz

20th Mar 2006, 23:19

I have the same feeling: For the past months, pilots ask more often to go faster or to shorten manouvering. Transavias are a good example of them, and also Easy Jet´s Airbus 319s (wich I think come from another company). Do Iberia and Spanair behave so "speedy" when they fly outside Spain. Sorry, no foreign on the job training :}

Á.

Mr R Sole

20th Mar 2006, 23:26

Sounds like yet another classic example of flight crew using TCAS as a pseudo radar and making their own judgements based on what they see. I suppose the next thing will be that BMA Airbus crews will be giving identification turns to other aircraft so that they can see who is ahead of them in the queue! :}

SM4 Pirate

21st Mar 2006, 06:11

It's only going to get worse with ADS-B in. Over here in sleepy hollow every second aircraft does econ descent as company policy, so 265K or 285K there abouts is the norm, pilots actually don't mind if we say go faster, go figure!

Once had a pilot "berate" me for making him number two to major competition aircraft, but in fact he was number 2 in a sequence of 8, the opposite company bus behind was still number 3, but far enough behind to go untouched, he thought a vector and speed made him lose the race…

A good one from recently retired colleague:

"Can we slow down instead of holding?"

"Affirm, reduce to zero knots for six minutes":p

Over+Out

21st Mar 2006, 06:27

I'm a TC Controller, I have never had any problem from any aircraft questioning speeds given. In my opinion BMA are very good to work with. The same applies to all the 'others', we ask for something and we normally get it.

Pierre Argh

21st Mar 2006, 08:13

Over+Out... congrats, seems your experience is rare (not solely with BMI I hasten to add).

It really p's me off when pilot's push for non-standard procedures, question my decisions (unless safety is compromised)... It is distracting, interupts train-of-thought and therefore hazardous. Pilot's would react differently if the boot was on the other foot that's for sure? I am confident that if an incident ocurred, after such badgering, the pilot would be the last to stand up and say "it was my fault, I was unduly pressurising the Controller", rather it would be a case of "I was simply doing as I was cleared..."

(PS: I have hearsay evidence of pilots from a major cut-price airline, beejabers, acknowledging the reduce speed call but doing nothing about it. When later challenged the pilot said he had had reduced speed, until told ATC can see their speed and they had clearly NOT slowed down... but that's another problem?)

Mike Rosewhich

21st Mar 2006, 08:35

DWS or whoever is interested.

I’m one of the bmi “monkeys” based at GLA and live near the centre. Can I suggest a cup of coffee (or beer) for an exchange of views and information I can feed back to the rest of the Troop.

Please PM me.

MR

RAC/OPS

21st Mar 2006, 08:37

Plumaveloz wrote:

Transavias are a good example of them...

Would that be the company or the type?!!

ukatco_535

21st Mar 2006, 08:39

over and out

I also work TC and have never had pilots query speeds, tho I have had them ask in a slightly questioning tone if the aircraft that has been flying parallel to them for the past 40 miles is being dropped because it is going to go ahead of him. (A bit of speed control earlier on would help... hint hint)

A short sharp 'yes' usually shuts them up. there is not usually r/t time to go into a convoluted explanation and also, it sounds then as if trying to justify your actions.

What does p:mad: :mad: s me off is the increasing number of A/C that give an intial call on climbout of "London XYZ123, hello"!!

:hmm:

rolaaand

21st Mar 2006, 09:18

Over + out & ukatco 535, I'm glad you confirmed what i suspected. Pilots know for a fact that TC airspace is packed a lot of the time so would be foolish to question your use of speed control.Unfortunately they seem to think that they can make up time by blazing through the "sleepy" Scottish TMA at whatever speed they like.
Pilots , even if you are number two I may have to slow you down, quite often when you call me at Margo now you are closer to number twenty-so don't even think about questioning my speed control. I just wish I was unprofessional enough to allow the "cheeky buggers" to spin around the hold until I had finished working the rest of the traffic whose pilots understand that I'm busy, and that I'm not just there to ruin there whole day.

Take up the Hold

21st Mar 2006, 09:40

Do aircraft obey speed limit points in LTMA even when on a heading towards the holding fix? Three times in the last couple of days, when working the Talla sector, I have asked aircraft (all different companies) their speed when they are in the vicinity of TLA on a heading towards TARTN. All were catching other traffic 10 to 12 miles ahead, below F130 and all with no shame advised 310/300/300 respectively. The SLPs are 250Kts, 10 before TLA when below F140. I had not asked them their speed previously and thought that they would slow down. I know, never assume in ATC, but you would think that pilots could read the STAR charts and not break the rules.
Since this I have been told by a pilot through a colleague that when an aircraft is given a heading it negates the STAR arrival and therefore the SLPs, somewhat akin to clearance to a new level negating the previous level restriction.
Any comments from TC controllers on what aircraft do in LTMA when on headings towards the hold.
Also any comments from our pilot friends on flight deck procedures and aircraft speed when given a heading to separate from other traffic, which is also approaching the same holding fix, but still roughly following the STAR.

TUTH

CFD

21st Mar 2006, 09:53

Take up the hold-personally if given a heading I put an abeam point into the fmc and then ask if there is any speed control.

danceswithsheep

21st Mar 2006, 10:05

CFD.
I think this is one of the creeping problems and a visit to a centre might help. When there is dead time on the R/T we are
1. planning 2 moving new traffic into the plan 3. telephone calls for coordination/planning hold/speaking to the military 4. working a plan with my colleague. 5,. etccccccccc.
While puting in the adjacent point in your FMS is a superb idea, may I suggest you then fly the published speed and cut down on the R/t. This may mean you are 3 minutes slower into wherever but the controller has extra thinking time and you may avoid the hold(4 mins+).
We try to provide the best service and let me tell you the guys I work alongside are superb. We do not tell you when to select flaps/ gear/ that little light to tell people to sit down. Please do the same for us.

Plumaveloz

21st Mar 2006, 10:47

Plumaveloz wrote:
Transavias are a good example of them...
Would that be the company or the type?!!

Let´s say they fly faster than the others. For the sake of expanation, last week, on Alicante Aproach:

ATC: "TransaviaXXXX speedback 250 knots" (FL140, 20 miles to IAF Vilna)
Pilot: "eer, who is our preceding traffic?
ATC: "At 12 of your position, 6 milles, lower level, an 737 from EasyJet"
Pilot: "Oh,...but, we can pass them easyly, he he he?
ATC: "Negative sirs, they are closer and lower and you are number 4 now. Please, speedback 240 knots or less"
Pilot: "Roger"

My foul, didn´t ask for a read back. The transavia didn´t slowed down and had to give him vectors to the localizer.

It is just an example. Don´t mind that everyone flies like that, but I have the feeling that their company limitations are less restrictive than others.

Regards,

Á.

DFC

21st Mar 2006, 11:30

Just for the purposes of fair play, having named the company involved could dances with sheep provide their watch at ScACC? :)

When ATC vector a flight off a standard route they should give the reason. It is the lack of communication between the ATCO and the Pilot that causes confusion.

I think that dances with sheep could try to remember that pilots do not badger them half as much as they should if we were to stick to the rules!

How often are flights put on vectors that "appear" to be taking us past the hold (clearance limit on the arrival) but we are not told if we will be turned towards the hold at a late stage or if we are being vectored towards base.

How often are we at a speed restriction that is above the holding speed but we have not been told that we are being vectored past the hold.....do we ask to slow up for the hold?

I am on a vector passing tartan but have not been given a clearance beyond the clearance limit and ATC are busy.......do I a) plough on or b) comply with my clearance limit as issued by ATC and turn towards the hold fix while trying to contact ATC?........not everything that the ATC operatives do is perfect either so perhaps both sides needf to look at what they do! ;)

Having said that, I would not question an ATC instruction designed for sequencing or separation just because it looked like we were being placed number 2........what would we crow about all those times we were number 1. :D

Regards,

DFC

CFD

21st Mar 2006, 11:53

Danceswithsheep-My response was to a query by takeupthehold asking for pilots procedures when given a heading.I thought I had a common sense approach to this particular situation, I would ask but not TELL you what speed! I thought if in doubt ask was the sensible thing to do, although I accept you could well be busy doing other things at a quiet time.
I will fly any speed that I am told , no arguments.I am not one of the airbus pilots you were referring to although I do fly a 737 for their offspring.
If you tell me there is holding I will ask if you have a preferred speed to reduce the holding time.I thought communication would lead to a suitable outcome.
Now to try to explain myself, I believe the point we are talking about is 10d before talla, 250kts and below FL160.To be fair nine times out of ten when I have asked I have been told no speed from me.Sometimes we are given a heading such that we never get within a 10d ring around talla,therefore I ask the question, unless the rt is really busy then I would have just done it. I dont think anything is laid down in our manuals so my solution was to put the abeam point in,I cant say what others in my company would do in the same circumstance.If you are saying that is what is required and that becomes the mandatory speed reducing point then fine- I have asked the question and you have answered it.
I wish I had time to visit an area centre, nothing very local, but I have managed to visit my local airfield radar room and control tower and have the utmost respect for what you guys do.
I think I had better get back to lurking around othere ares of pprune before I cause problems.

ukatco_535

21st Mar 2006, 12:20

Take up the Hold/Rolaaand

Unless I specify a speed to an a/c within first contact, they will (85% of the time), come back and ask. That in itself is a little annoying as my answer will invariably be "fly standard/normal speeds". Annoying because of course that is what they should do unless instructed otherwise - it's a transmission I should not have to make.

Once given a speed, they obey it - having Mode S helps!!

As for the difference between our TMAs - yes the LTMA might be more packed more often, but they are both, by their very existence, extremely complex bits of airspace. I would hope that pilots did not think that just because they expect it to be quieter, they can disobey your instructions.

We very often get A/C from LACC on speeds anyways - usually 300kts or greater, so when the pilot reports that, we will invariable give an instructiuon regarding speed.

DFC

As for explaining why you are put on a heading - if (and I purely speak from an LTMA perspective here as I do not have knowledge of other places) I was to explain every time why I took you off a SID or turned you left when running into the fix etc, I would not get anything done.

In TMAs although there are set routes, the very nature of the job (multiple crossing tracks with A/C needing to climb and descend) means that we will need headings to get A/C moving.

If I turn an A/C 20 degrees left as it runs into Biggin so that I can climb an A/C outbound from EGLL or EGKK (which wil also be on a heading) it is done with the best interests of all A/C involved - it means I can give the inbound A/C a descent as well. It means that the outbound A/C are not left at lower levels and the inbound A/C are not too high at the holding point to come straight off. I would say that 90% of A/C in the LTMA are on headings.

We are not going to tell them all the reason why!!

There are far too many tactical reasons that we use headings for us to have the time to explain it. In an ideal world, we would, but it is far from ideal!! The most a pilot would get from me is an assurance that there would be no delay due to my vectoring; and then only when I have the time.

You may be put on a heading to take you away from an A/C that is working a different controller using shared airspace. That A/C may not even be on frequency yet but we know its coming from our forward planning.

When you are flying airways and taken off a route, then yes, maybe you could expect a bit of an explanation, but please bear in mind the complexity of UK and other airspace.

Jumbo Driver

21st Mar 2006, 12:31

Since this I have been told by a pilot through a colleague that when an aircraft is given a heading it negates the STAR arrival and therefore the SLPs, somewhat akin to clearance to a new level negating the previous level restriction.
Any comments from TC controllers on what aircraft do in LTMA when on headings towards the hold.
Also any comments from our pilot friends on flight deck procedures and aircraft speed when given a heading to separate from other traffic, which is also approaching the same holding fix, but still roughly following the STAR.
TUTH

There is certainly some ambiguity here.

On another thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212064 there has been discussion about whether a change in flight level given when flying a SID cancels other constraints (such as published step climb levels) within that SID. The definitive answer seemed to be tucked away within a CAA Safety Leaflet - RTF Discipline - Advice to Pilots, http://www.levelbust.com/downloads/srgfodsafety_leaflet_rtf.pdf, which says on page 4:

"When an amendment is made to a clearance, the new clearance must be given in full to the pilot by the air traffic controller, and this new clearance automatically cancels any previous clearance.

Thus, when an air traffic controller issues a clearance, which amends the route or vertical profile of an aircraft on a SID, e.g. 'climb FL 120', this automatically cancels the vertical profile of the SID. If the profile contains a restriction which provides vertical separation from conflicting traffic on another SID, air traffic controllers must reiterate the restriction, e.g. 'climb FL120, cross XYZ 5000 feet or above'. Similarly, when air traffic controllers issue instructions which amend the SID route, they are to confirm the level profile to be followed e.g. 'fly heading 095, climb FL 80' or 'route direct to ABC, stop climb at altitude 5000 feet'.

Similarly, if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. ‘cross XYZ FL180 or below' then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance."

It can be argued that giving an aircraft a heading away from the horizontal profile of the STAR is the same in principle as the example above and therefore a radar heading effectively cancels the STAR, together with any vertical or speed constraints of the STAR, unless specifically reiterated with the revised (i.e. heading) clearance. It is also a very short logical step to say that, if the published STAR requires, for example, "250kts 15nm before XYZ" and you are then put on a heading such that you are no longer routing via XYZ, then the SLP clearly cannot still apply - unless of course it is restated with the revised (i.e. heading) clearance.

It does seem that the critical question is whether the SLP is just a constraint of the STAR or does it apply to all inbound flights to that destination. By way of an example, the chart for EGLL STARs via Bovingdon (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/32LL0702.PDF) would seem to show the SLPs drawn as a distance to (or radius from) the inbound holding facility (i.e. BNN in this case) - and this would seem to be confirmed by Note 2 on the chart, which says "Cross SLPs or 3mins before holding facility at 250kts IAS or less".

However, it is not definitive and we certainly could do with a clarification statement similar to the SID case above. Until this happens, surely the simplest solution is to reiterate the SLP requirement with any radar heading off the STAR for, as they say, "the avoidance of doubt", e.g.

"Speedbird 123, radar heading 160 degrees, be at 250kts or less by 17dme Bovingdon."

danceswithsheep

21st Mar 2006, 12:31

DFC - for the reason of fairness, I hide behind a name on this but D Watch is the one I work for and This thread was my personnal views and not that of Scottish or D Watch. I wish to provide the best service I can and I feel that by being questioned by a pilot I am not able too. I try for short cuts, when asked. I try to provide adjacent sectors with traffic as best presented as I can. I try to sequence a/c taking into mind type, size and wake vortex(never company!).
If I was the only one having a problem, the thread would be lost but it seems to be touching a nerve, and not just for Scottish, or D Watch. We have just finished TRM and the point I brought up in that is that Pilots are part of our big team. That is my major point.
My first call, if I can is No speed on outbound and inbound legs. Right turns of PF on Easterlies if I can. A vector to short cut over Lanak, if I can.
If you would prefer we all keep you on route and just stick you into the hold we can. More work for us, more for you and bigger delays. Is this how it should be???????????????????????? Otherwise trust that we are doing the best we can. I try to tell pilots...further descent in 2 mins for controlled airspace, traffic 3 o'clock 5 miles further descent after etc.....but we are busy!!!!! How many times do we get.....Can I have climb.....followed by traffic information.....followed by yes we have them on TCAS...............................................More than it should happen!

RAC/OPS

21st Mar 2006, 12:45

Plumaveloz.
Sorry, I was just being facetious!
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/RyePeter/5143.htm

danceswithsheep

21st Mar 2006, 13:42

CFD.....
You are welcome as are your comments on this and at a centre anytime. The reason for writing the thread is to help with awareness and to maybe help solve a problem.
We all work together and I thank a/c on the r/t whenever they help me out and I appreciate the same when I can provide short cuts etc.
We all want to get home early, make schedules, spend time with family, friends, Magners and generally have a stress free time.
I will be extending the hand of friendship to a BMA A320 Pilot on Thursday to come into Scottish and see the minefield that is the TMA. We will then wander into Flannigans and continue the conversation. By doing this I hope I can help in the interface between us all in some small way.
I have no intention of delaying anyone, changing orders or holding a grudge, this would mean being less proffesional than I can be and I enjoy my job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(but dont tell management)
If you fly and you get the chance, come into a centre, your company may even pay for it!!!!!!! We are normal people living in a darkened room just wanting to get home to our loved animals............:rolleyes:

CFD

21st Mar 2006, 14:20

Thankyou, head back above the parapit!:)
Any chance of a definative answer to the question about speed if on a heading away from the star.Jumbo drivers solution seems sensible.

Just received an email from my company re changes to arrivals for EDI and one of these is strict adherance to inbound speed limits, so I could do with the definative answer.In the absence of any I guess I will go with the abeam point.

Dances with sheep, I certainly didn't mean to infer you would deliberately be delaying aircraft for no reason.
Regards.

ukatco_535

21st Mar 2006, 14:30

CFD

Not a definitive answer but I would comply with the speed limits even if on a heading, using the speeds abeam the point.

Chances are you may well be on a heading as you are running in parallel with another A/C anyways so keeping the speed up may well be detrimental to a no hold approach!!

Your thoughts are more than welcome on this forum - as a pilot you have a lot to input.

prowler

21st Mar 2006, 14:52

DWS I bear wit u.... but just as Scott put it...... either SLOW DOWN or then TURN round....

Some Pilots, of course not all think they have the situation / sequence, lately, mainly because of their TCAS.....

We just have to MAKE them do their TALKIN with their Flyin....

to Conclude, it's either ATC WAY... or.... THE HIGHWAY!"!:ok:

DWS hope to see u down d desert, sooner or later ;)

Right Way Up

21st Mar 2006, 14:55

danceswithsheep

21st Mar 2006, 15:08

About the SLP. Take it as abeam the 10d TLA or whatever it is. You are given headings to seperate and expedite(in that order) so plan on that point or 3 mins to the hold.
EGPH have made some changes to us on how we work together and hopefully they will make the situation easier. What we want to avoid is the hold for no reason and draconion speeds late on where as we can start the process at 80 miles and make it easier.
I know its tough to descend and reduce speed, therefore making level restructions tough. We are reasonable and think of how often you get the short cut, direct centre fix, or what have you.
The service you receive from my colleagues I believe is not perfect as we are mostly humans down here, but its not far off and when in a bind, they are people I am proud to have worked with.
Just help us to help you, and come on over for a drink.

PS How about this, every time you miss a speed limit point or get caught doing excess speed, its 3 points and a £30 fine. should make Christmas fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DFC

21st Mar 2006, 22:56

ukatco_535,

Yes we know how hard you are working and we realise that it is an imperfect world. However, the situation that happens in the STMA does not happen in the LTMA except when the moon is blue.

Imaging you taking an aircraft inbound to BIG for LL 09 and putting it on a heading to pass between OCK and BIG from half way across the channel. That I am sure you would agree is one case where it would be a good idea to briefly tell the crew just what you have in mind.

More usual of course for us to be vectored a bit and then end up at BIG so no need to tell us anything.

Get the idea where the difference is?

Regards,

DFC

10W

22nd Mar 2006, 01:54

To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down :ok:

The reply to any pilot who bitches or whinges for anything else should be 'Roger' :)

The system used by TC works well in busy airspace, so let's go for it here too :cool:

topdrop

22nd Mar 2006, 03:52

One particular crew that regularly failed to fly the speed given were told
"Your landing time is based on speed and distance - You give me the speed or I'll give you the distance" They suddenly lost 50 knots groundspeed.

5miles

22nd Mar 2006, 07:36

Over+Out

we ask for something and we normally get it.

Sounds very polite but shouldn't you make sure you 'always' get it.

rolaaand

22nd Mar 2006, 07:41

DFC- If i had to tell every crew in the Talla sector why i had them on a heading safety would be compromised-not nearly enough time my friend.Bear in mind that the headings you are on going into EDI are purely because the controlled airspace we have is a load of bollocks. It really is quite a pronounced corner to turn round at ESKDO for TARTN. Which is why you might be on a heading almost towards LANAK when you get the level restriction abeam TARTN. As 10W says why don't we cut out all the little niceties for a while. I won't like it as I'll feel I won't be doing my job properly but it might make pilots sit up and realise how much effort we put in to getting them on thier way as quickly as possible.
As an aside and just to prove it's not just BMA-kept hold of an EZY inbound to GLA yesterday longer than I would normally have done. Two and a half minutes before LANAK and passing 120 I asked his speed- "Oh 300 but we can do what you like". Hmm. My curt reply that he should be doing 250 didn't go down too well.
DFC- I've named another company there, so before I get the fairness police speech-Scottish D Watch.

Hootin an a roarin

22nd Mar 2006, 08:04

10W

"To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down "

You should be doing that now for EDI inbounds. The trial started 14th Mar until 14th April and a SCON has been issued to that effect. :ok:

ukatco_535

22nd Mar 2006, 08:30

10W

To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down

The system used by TC works well in busy airspace, so let's go for it here too

Thats the point... at TC we do not keep things on the routeings!!!

I think you misread my post. If we were to do so, nothing would get moving for ages.

DFC

If you re-read my post I did infer that with longer distances involved, an explanation may be more relevant.

When you are flying airways and taken off a route, then yes, maybe you could expect a bit of an explanation, but please bear in mind the complexity of UK and other airspace.

King Muppet

22nd Mar 2006, 09:06

Jumbo Driver's comments on ambiguity are well worth further thought.
As it can be argued that when 'off-STAR' lateral and vertical constraints do not apply unless reiterated, some clarification - either local or national - is required.
(Note: there was a section in the AIP that described speed limitations and specifically referred to actually flying a STAR, SID or under ATC limitation, reinforcing that argument.)
More ambiguity comes when a speed-related query is answered by "standard speeds". Is that to be standard speeds as if you were flying the STAR or standard speed limits for the type of airspace? In Class A, eg London or Manchester, no limit below FL100.
Perhaps a note on the STAR plates that says "250 kts abeam SLPs when receiving vectors unless instructed otherwise", or words to that effect, where that is clearly the intention/understanding.

Edit: Realised this is straying somewhat from the original thread... worthy of a new one to discuss this topic?

Plumaveloz

22nd Mar 2006, 09:23

Plumaveloz,
This happened to me at ALC a few weeks ago. We were asked by ATC to keep as high a speed as possible for separation from a Transavia behind so maintained 320 kts. The Transavia aircraft was asked to reduce to 250 kts . Visibility at ALC was 4-5000m and we were using ILS 10. Our rocket scientist behind then asks to route direct 10 mile fix. This was refused and as we turned onto the ILS at a suitable speed which had been passed to ATC, the Transavia who was past VILNA was asked what his speed was, to which he cheerily replied "320 kts". These guys are not only bullying ATC they are wilfully ignoring ATC clearances. My mistake - I should have MOR'd it, I won't make that mistake again! :yuk:

The airspace is soooo small :)

I would like to thank you for the way you acted: Mantaining high speed, reporting when slowing down and best of all, you didn´t say a word about the unpolite behavior of your transavia´s colleagues. That helps us a lot. You guys at Easy do a great job and is a pleasure to work with you.

If you fly to Valencia Airport, I would like to let to know you. Send me a message plumaveloz at gmail dot com and I will do my best to get to you, even at your plane. I have access to the apron.

Best regards,

Ángel Gutiérrez

Right Way Up

22nd Mar 2006, 09:28

Ángel,
Will do!

DFC

22nd Mar 2006, 14:23

UK ATCO 535,

Sorry. Did not take the Airways reference to include Terminal Airspace.

Regards,

DFC

Minesapint

22nd Mar 2006, 15:57

I remember overhearing a D watch controller at LATCC say (words to the effect of) "BAW123, you may be number one in Europe but you are number 12at Gatwick" following repeated requests for something that nobody else was getting.

Excellent! :ok:

discountinvestigator

22nd Mar 2006, 16:15

During the investigation of the mid-air collision over Germany in 2002, we had quite a discussion about the AeroLloyd pilot and his interaction with the controller. Just because you are the only one on frequency, does not mean that the controller only has one frequency. It was a stress that the controller could have done without on that particular night. However, the report did not appear to reflect the concern of the ATC working group on that matter. Still German report, German airline....

fireflybob

22nd Mar 2006, 20:03

Surely if ATC request a speed in regulated airspeed and the readback is correct but then the aircraft does not comply then an offence is being commited?

These pilots and airlines that do not comply should be prosecuted as to fly in this manner may be to endanger the aircraft and its occupants not to mention other airspace users.

As a pilot who is (semi) retired from the industry I dearly loved I am quite appalled to hear of such antics from so-called professional pilots!

rab-k

22nd Mar 2006, 20:26

My tuppence worth of pet pilot hates-

'Speedy' drivers who when told 'higher FLs not available due to traffic' have the :mad: neck to then ask "Who is the traffic"!!

Like it makes any :mad: difference who it is - YOU'RE NOT GETTING HIGHER!!!

Next time I'll ask him to check the EGT of his No. 2 engine. If they want to start questioning how I do my job I'll be only too happy to turn the tables.

http://www.saidwhatmovies.com/biogpicture/clivedunn.jpg

"They don't like it up'em
Captain Mainwaring"

:}

danceswithsheep

22nd Mar 2006, 21:07

Pilots of the scottish skies. If me and my sheep get our way.

Once we get a decent way of telling speed, or you are daft enough to tell us!..........it will be £30 fine and 3 points on your licence for PIC or £50 and no points. I make no bones it will be going to a Christmas fund and you are welcome to come and enjoy it.......it your as brave as the BMA lad coming to visit tomorrow................looking forward to it Mike!!!:}

jovica

22nd Mar 2006, 21:24

Very interesting thread indeed. What triggered my reply was unexpected appearance of TRA in negative connotation. I was very surprised. Always pleasent, helpful and cooperative. Never ever had I problems with them. Usually, it is UK airliners that are pain in the a.. To be precise, most of the times BAW and BAL. Twice I was asked about my radar separation minimum, so meny times they were complaining and asking for reason, even if you ask them to increase or reduce their speed by 0.01M. Not to mention level change! Blasphemy! Almost like JAT, Serbia's national carrier, who is the worst one, undoubtedly.

DFC

22nd Mar 2006, 23:20

it your as brave as the BMA lad coming to visit tomorrow................looking forward to it Mike!!!:}

Out of order!

If "Mike" was or was not involved in the reason for starting this thred it is out of order to name them here!

Simply ensures that some pilots will not bother to visit and the benifits are lost.

Regards,

DFC

rolaaand

23rd Mar 2006, 06:25

[QUOTE=DFC]Out of order!
If "Mike" was or was not involved in the reason for starting this thred it is out of order to name them here!
Simply ensures that some pilots will not bother to visit and the benifits are lost.
Regards,

Some confusion maybe? "mike" is the guys pprune handle which bears no resemblance to his real name, page 1 of the thread. Anonyimity has not been compromised. Looking forward to talking to him today.

danceswithsheep

23rd Mar 2006, 12:30

"Mike" is definatley not his real name but a gentleman he is.

The pilot in question has just left Scottish and hopefully enjoyed his visit. You are all more than welcome and, with any luck, an exchange in views will provide a better working environment for us all.

DFC.......This is a forum for intelligent folks and I would always maintain privacy of people on here. My name is not really Danceswithsheep although I may change it by deed poll on the near future! This forum alone has led to me being educated by "Mike" today and I will be a better controller for it(some believe I could not get much worse). Keep your privacy but come visit, and push for Fam flights......its a big team a we are all part of it.

Love and kissses................SHEEP:yuk:

rolaaand

24th Mar 2006, 09:29

Was good to see a BMA A320 pilot visit yesterday as a direct result of this thread. Danceswithsheep gave him the tour and got him plugged in on the Talla sector and it seemed to be a good two way learning process. Also, later in the day I had a Virgin B744 captain plug in with me on Deancross sector,it got a little bit "sporting" and I'm glad of that. It is often the case when visitors plug in with me and I'm explaining how busy a sector can be, it's really quiet and the only thing missing is the tumbleweed blowing across the ops room!
Both pilots commented on how much effort was being put in with planning and coordination when the controller is not transmitting on the frequency. Enjoyable day at work all in all.Best not tell Mr Barron I enjoyed it though,he'll re -classify it as a hobby and charge me for the privilege!

ScotPilot

27th Mar 2006, 17:33

My attention has just been drawn to this thread and I just wanted to say of couple of things. I am a pilot with said airline. I take an enormous personal pride in my dealings with ATC as we have a joint safety responsibility. Some of the sweeping generalisations being made in this thread are quite offensive, unnecessary, and outwith the characteristic professionalism that we all expect of eachother. Calling eachother names such as monkeys and f****wits does your profession an enormous disservice - IMHO more so than the original pilot transgression. I would urge you to consider how this thread would read to an outsider - I would be left thinking that both sides are as bad as eachother. Just my 2p worth.

The Real Slim Shady

27th Mar 2006, 19:12

R Sole

I'm a pilot but not from BMA.

May I commend to you, and to any pilots reading this thread, John Long's excellent article on ACAS available from Eurocontrol.

danceswithsheep

28th Mar 2006, 05:52

Scotpilot

So as too answer yuor comments, When I am on the R/T I try to provide a good service, when on my own time on a public forum, my thoughts are my own. There are no safety implications posting on here, whereas arguing with control instructions does.
From this thread, much goodness has come. I have been made aware, its not just me. An A320 pilot came in for a look around and I learnt more about a type I have not flown on(due to no Fam Flights) and I believe he also learnt a little more about what goes on in the Scottish TMA.
You are correct when you say that name calling is unprofessional, but we all vent and if the pilot in question, who I understand is well known for this kind of thing, had not increased my stress load in an otherwise organised traffic situation, this thread would not have started.
Just be aware that when you wind up a controller, increase the R/T with non standard calls, etc, we are unable to provide the best service possible and if you, God forbid, had an emergency while this gentleman was wittering about an Air Traffic Instruction, how would you feel about being unable to transmit your situation.
My advice is, if you are as professional as you say, then take the known pilots aside and have a word. CRM/TRM stretches beyond your cockpit/company.

zzjayca

28th Mar 2006, 14:22

Usually, it is UK airliners that are pain in the a.. To be precise, most of the times BAW and BAL. Twice I was asked about my radar separation minimum, so meny times they were complaining and asking for reason, even if you ask them to increase or reduce their speed by 0.01M. Not to mention level change! Blasphemy! Almost like JAT, Serbia's national carrier, who is the worst one, undoubtedly.
Is it a flag carrier thing? In Canada ACA pilots are the most likely to complain or not adhere to an ATC instruction whereas, BAW are always pleasant and easy to work with.
I do agree that all pilots seem to be questioning ATC more often than in the past. As frequency congestion and traffic levels increase, the last thing we need is to exacerbate the situation with silly questions.